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Speaker 1: I am all in. I am all in with Scott

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Speaker 1: Patterson and I heart radio podcast. Okay, everybody here we are,

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Speaker 1: and we have a very special guest coming up, Kim Kirk.

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Speaker 1: She's a psychologist, therapist, and she was on her prior

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Speaker 1: episode and you know, I said to Amy, I said,

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Speaker 1: we've got to get Kim back on to talk about

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Speaker 1: this Paris thing, because, uh, you know, I was having

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Speaker 1: some issues with Paris and I've worked them out now. Um,

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Speaker 1: but Kim's gonna come on. We're gonna have a talk.

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Speaker 1: She's always fascinating, she's always uh really cuts right to

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Speaker 1: the heart of what is going on and and she's

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Speaker 1: going to do the same with Paris though, so so

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Speaker 1: tune in and uh we'll be back with Kim work

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Speaker 1: after these words. Yeah, Jim Kirk, Hi, how are you doing.

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Speaker 1: Good to see you again. I'm so glad you could

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Speaker 1: join us. Um, listen, we gotta get into this Paris storyline.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's it's jangling my brain around a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I you know, how would you describe Paris? First of all?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, Uh, Paris so polarizing and I know you

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Speaker 1: have such adoration for her because I've been listening to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Paris reminds me of Um and I have

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Speaker 1: I have affection for her, but I've watched the series

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Speaker 1: several times, so I know the trajectory of her story.

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Speaker 1: But it is it's I'm not surprised when you react

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Speaker 1: to her that way because the signs that she's putting

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Speaker 1: off it evoke those feelings. She's not a she doesn't

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Speaker 1: put off as a safe person. And so I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this is a good UM example because it's

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Speaker 1: a dated movie. But one example that comes to mind

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Speaker 1: is um Glen Garry Glenn Ross movie, that iconic scene

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Speaker 1: with Alec Baldwin where always be closing is you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very fowl. The language is not but but it's

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Speaker 1: it's basically, um, if you if you get to this destination,

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Speaker 1: you will get this and if you don't meet this destination,

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Speaker 1: you will be annihilated. And you can imagine, you know, my,

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Speaker 1: my Glen Garry. Like, I don't know how relatable that

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Speaker 1: is to a lot of our if that's a good

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Speaker 1: analogy or not with people, but but it's all another

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Speaker 1: analogy I think of with Paris, and if she was

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Speaker 1: like injected with some serum and she's got to get

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Speaker 1: to this destination in this period of time or your

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Speaker 1: whole family will die and you will die. It's that

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Speaker 1: level of um laser focus and everything, everything in my

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Speaker 1: path is either going to be a support or it's

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Speaker 1: going to be against me. And you're either with me

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Speaker 1: or you're against me. It's that absolute. So when and

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Speaker 1: like you said, um, when we compare her to somebody

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Speaker 1: like Rory, and they may be equals intellectually, Rory has

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Speaker 1: especially with Loralae and then with the town, and then

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Speaker 1: we've added in her grandparents. Um, she has people for her.

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Speaker 1: We're cheering her along, we want this for her, we

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Speaker 1: celebrate this with her. She knows she's smart. But there's

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Speaker 1: also safety internally, and it's like Paris is. Safety is

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Speaker 1: going to be, like you said, if I get to

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Speaker 1: this destination, then I will live. What an what an

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Speaker 1: important and insightful analysis, because if you don't have that safety,

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Speaker 1: you can fail miserably. I mean you can still succeed,

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Speaker 1: but at what price to others around you? But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's safety is so crucial. But that safety also allows

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Speaker 1: you to make mistakes because I know if I make

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Speaker 1: a mistake, which is which is critical. It's absolutely it's

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Speaker 1: not just gonna happen. It's necessary to happen, because if

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Speaker 1: I make a mistake and I get back up again,

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Speaker 1: I know I don't get annihilated. I've got room to grow,

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Speaker 1: I've got room to look around. And Paris is just

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Speaker 1: so singlely focused. And I you made a good point

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Speaker 1: as well. When I have no safety in here and

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Speaker 1: I have no control, I am going to seek it

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Speaker 1: out externally. And that's what she does. She seeks it

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Speaker 1: out externally, which is you know, she's young, she's a teenager.

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Speaker 1: They're disregulated. We're expecting her to be disregulated. But anytime

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Speaker 1: I see anybody that's absolutely desperate to exert control externing,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, I know they feel powerless inside, absolutely powerless,

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Speaker 1: right right, Wow, Landing, How was this landing for you?

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Speaker 1: Because I know you've had some some understandably um I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say heart but very direct criticisms of her,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's understandable. She doesn't put out the

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Speaker 1: warm and fuzzies, so some of it is due to

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Speaker 1: uh not, It's it's not against Liza Wheel personally. I

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Speaker 1: think she's wonderful actress, wonderful, wonderful person. She did a

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Speaker 1: great job. Absolutely, Um, It's just I was the thing

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Speaker 1: I was reacting to was the character itself losing whatever

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Speaker 1: um value it had to threaten and intimidate, uh rory

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Speaker 1: because as a currency, that character had a lot of

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Speaker 1: power and started out as saying this really drastic threat,

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Speaker 1: and then it became a little bit cartoonish for me,

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Speaker 1: and I was disappointed in that, you know, as the

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Speaker 1: story progressed, and I so, I wonder why they did that.

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Speaker 1: So so the criticism isn't it's it's not against Paris.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's I don't know, maybe I thought I

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Speaker 1: thought they just went a little overboard and made it

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Speaker 1: made Paris so off the charts, ridiculous, wacko, off the

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Speaker 1: wall without allowing us to have I mean, if I

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Speaker 1: think it would have been more powerful storytelling if we

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Speaker 1: had a little bit of compassion for if we knew

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about or give us a little

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Speaker 1: background and not just one shot of her mother at

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Speaker 1: a locker who's detached and kind of piss because she

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Speaker 1: has to be there or whatever, but you know, give

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Speaker 1: us something that we can hang our hat on, so

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Speaker 1: we can so we can just see another dimension of Paris.

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Speaker 1: That's all. That's all I was saying. You don't need

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Speaker 1: a lot, you know, just just give me something. Extead

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Speaker 1: of this carton. Now she's getting just completely ridiculous and

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Speaker 1: you kind of laugh at her instead of with her

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Speaker 1: at times, and I didn't want to do that. Um yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I see, you know, and what to me, you

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking about on on some of the

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Speaker 1: other characters on the show that the supporting stuff, like

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Speaker 1: a Taylor and a and a Kirk, you know, or

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Speaker 1: they just kind of come in. They're exaggerated. I know,

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Speaker 1: people will say they recognize those kind of people from

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Speaker 1: the town. They're usually exaggerated, but they are kind of

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Speaker 1: cartoonish and they kind of come in and zip in

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Speaker 1: and zip out. And her, she's going to be a

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Speaker 1: much more sensitive character on this show side. But I

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Speaker 1: think I think all of the characters are. I think

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Speaker 1: I think all of the characters elevated and not necessarily cartoonish,

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Speaker 1: but they do come and they do sort of exist

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Speaker 1: in this sort of unreality. I mean, have you have

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Speaker 1: you ever known I mean, can you even imagine in

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Speaker 1: real life Rory and a Laurelai with all the answer

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Speaker 1: going back and forth walking to a diner, I mean,

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Speaker 1: or the conversations they have crossing, crossing in front the

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Speaker 1: go to the diner a version of that, okay, right right?

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Speaker 1: Not not so well choreographed, of course, this this and

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Speaker 1: this banter that there's no us and trail off distraction.

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Speaker 1: It's just so perfect and well written, right, it's just

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Speaker 1: so neat. Um so yeah, I mean I think we're

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Speaker 1: they're training the audience to expect heightened reality. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: called fiction. Um so yeah, dummy, it's called fiction. Uh

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Speaker 1: So this begs another conversation about winning? Is it healthy?

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Speaker 1: What is it? What's the famous all things in moderation? Right, right,

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Speaker 1: all things? Well, because you know, like your point is

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Speaker 1: getting into Harvard, it's an amazing goal. But then you know,

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Speaker 1: we've on people that have worked really really hard to

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Speaker 1: achieve something so specific and then they get there and

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Speaker 1: then what, yeah, is is the if if her goal

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Speaker 1: is I'm going to get to this destination and I

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Speaker 1: will finally be loved and it's not met, then what happens? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: then then what happens that single focus? And when you

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Speaker 1: were talking about like is winning everything it is to

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Speaker 1: her right now? What is what is that? But she's

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Speaker 1: sixteen too, which which then we bring in. Wouldn't it

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Speaker 1: be nice for someone who's not sixteen too much older

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Speaker 1: than sixteen could give her some perspective that she can't

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Speaker 1: see right now, You're gonna burn yourself out. You're going, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's you know, I look at Paris and she's like

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Speaker 1: simultaneously attacking and defending at the same time. So you

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Speaker 1: may go, you know, I want to help her, and

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Speaker 1: then you go over there and you get the part

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Speaker 1: of her that's really suspicious of what do you want,

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Speaker 1: and you might go, all right, I'm I'm out. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. So it's kind of that self perpetuating problem

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Speaker 1: of I want this, but I'm so protected of myself

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Speaker 1: that I'm actually pushing it away and she can't see

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Speaker 1: that either. Um. You know, we see Paris often giving

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Speaker 1: Rory the secrets to her success? Why is she doing that?

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Speaker 1: If she's a rival? That's always yeah, I heard you

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Speaker 1: post that before. It's interesting because I wonder that too,

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Speaker 1: Like is she I think I always wondered too, Like

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Speaker 1: before Rory got there, how many other rivals have she?

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Speaker 1: Just you know knocked aside, Um, Madeleine and Louise to

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Speaker 1: me are more support staff ladies in waiting versus friends.

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Speaker 1: They're not really friends. So so I always wonder with Rory,

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Speaker 1: maybe there's a level of and you were an athlete

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Speaker 1: and you know, like very driven. Is there a level

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Speaker 1: of does it take you to a higher level when

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Speaker 1: you've got a good competitor? Is that one aspect of it?

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Speaker 1: And is there another aspect that part of her like Rory,

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Speaker 1: part of her wouldn't mind if Rory, like there can

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Speaker 1: only be one, but maybe it would be nice if

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Speaker 1: you kind of hung around with me on this race.

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Speaker 1: Inevitably I'm gonna win, but maybe it's kind of nice

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Speaker 1: to have your rounds. I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting question. So, um, that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: how I view it. Like there's a lot of mixed

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Speaker 1: feelings about it, and I think she kind of likes her.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the first time she's felt threatened that

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Speaker 1: somebody could overtake her. Ryan back down. Yet Rory is

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Speaker 1: so emotionally mature because she's pretty much had to raise

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Speaker 1: her mother at times. I mean, who's who's the parent

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Speaker 1: and who's the child in that relationship. I think it

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Speaker 1: switches back and forth. Right, So, Rory has a tremendous

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Speaker 1: amount of experience dealing with uh overwrought emotions coming from

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Speaker 1: a caregiver, you know, her mother. So here she's dealing

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Speaker 1: with a sixteen year old when she's been dealing with

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Speaker 1: you know, her mother her whole life, because you know,

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Speaker 1: you can only imagine the outbursts and the and the

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Speaker 1: insecurities and the conversations that don't get written about or

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Speaker 1: or appear on on the series if you're taking this

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Speaker 1: that seriously. But with in Paris's case, I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think Rory sees her as somebody at this point

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Speaker 1: who she has dismissed on a certain level, as this

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Speaker 1: girl really isn't arrival. This girl is not my enemy.

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Speaker 1: This girl is going to provide me a chance to

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Speaker 1: show the same level of compassion uh and emotional maturity

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Speaker 1: that I've had too shown to get through certain periods

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Speaker 1: of my life with my mother, my own mother. So

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Speaker 1: I have experience ants in this field, um uh. And

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Speaker 1: and now she's to the point where, like this in

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Speaker 1: Paris is so toxic that I do need to create distance.

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Speaker 1: I can't. She realizes she can't be friends with her,

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Speaker 1: and and Paris is on a complete different track, like

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Speaker 1: still trying to ingratiate herself, still trying to have her friend,

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Speaker 1: because if she's rejected by Rory, I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 1: like being rejected by her mother or her father. You know,

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Speaker 1: It's it's the same level of of rejection and disappointment

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Speaker 1: and self loathing. And she doesn't want to experience that.

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Speaker 1: So she maybe she's just fighting so hard to keep

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Speaker 1: Rory in the fold, and she's doing it in her

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Speaker 1: in inevitable style, showing up at the door. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: it's a it's it's a yeah, really interesting in perspective

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Speaker 1: of that. I wonder too, Rory um, Rory, is that

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Speaker 1: really scared of her? Like she you know, she was

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Speaker 1: taken aback by her initially, and she stood up to

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Speaker 1: a couple of times, and you know, just like anybody

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Speaker 1: else that you're around, there's there, there's I don't want

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Speaker 1: to say there's no, there's all bark and no bite.

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Speaker 1: She bites a little bit, but she hasn't been hard

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Speaker 1: enough yet that Roy has been injured by that, and

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Speaker 1: she's every time she's stood up for herself. It seems

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Speaker 1: to have worked um with Paris to a degree. Um,

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Speaker 1: I I can't completely let go that they kind of

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Speaker 1: like each other on some level, some level they get

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Speaker 1: each other. I think she you know, initially, no, I

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Speaker 1: don't think they like each other. Wasn't much there. But

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Speaker 1: there's some connection there that they're having. That's that's unspoken

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Speaker 1: and maybe neither one of them are that aware of

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Speaker 1: it yet. The competition part is is interesting for them.

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Speaker 1: They kind of I would imagine they kind of keep

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Speaker 1: each other in check. Um, And I think you're right

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Speaker 1: too about Paris doesn't think Roy's gonna win, But as

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Speaker 1: this season is showing, you're seeing her getting a little

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Speaker 1: bit more uncertain about You're saying that, But what was

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Speaker 1: your question? Uh? Maybe maybe, um, maybe Rory sees a

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Speaker 1: little bit of her mom in Paris. Interesting. I I

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Speaker 1: brought this up last time I talked to you guys,

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Speaker 1: and I don't I don't know how this lands with y'all.

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Speaker 1: Paris reminds me a lot of Emily. She reminds me

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Speaker 1: a lot of Emily. What about like on the the

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Speaker 1: Bracebridge dinner, Remember when Laurela was making the rounds and

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Speaker 1: she goes by, and her dad's you know, being unusually

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Speaker 1: gracious and appreciative of this dinner, and Emily goes, you

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Speaker 1: need to press your dress, and then go around checks

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Speaker 1: on Paris, and then Paris points out everything that's inaccurate

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Speaker 1: about the period. I was almost like, and Laurel, I

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Speaker 1: just okay. So so I wonder too if Emily is

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Speaker 1: not competing with Rory. So it's a different relationship. But

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Speaker 1: like what your your point is not just mom, but grandma.

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Speaker 1: These may not be scary people to her. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: may be like been there, done that, yeaher versions than you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And she's able to communicate with if you notice, she's

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Speaker 1: kind of able to hone in some places with Paris

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Speaker 1: where she calms all of herself down and they can

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Speaker 1: have like a real quick human to human contact, and

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Speaker 1: then Paris gotta resumed wherever she's at. Um. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I I there's there's something there. There's I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot there. Maybe maybe we're maybe we're both right.

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Speaker 1: What um in your experience when you have had patients

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Speaker 1: that are like Paris, what ultimately ends up happening to

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Speaker 1: them as they get older? Well, I haven't worked with

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Speaker 1: anyone quite like her. But I've worked with with driven

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Speaker 1: people and if you know, and you know in my world,

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Speaker 1: what what do you want to work on is what

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Speaker 1: they're coming in for. So I'm not gonna, you know,

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Speaker 1: tell people where they need to be, where they need

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Speaker 1: to go. Um. But when I see somebody like her

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Speaker 1: and we're able to really look inward and see what's

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Speaker 1: going on and see what's important about this behavior? Would

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Speaker 1: it be would it be nice if we could turn

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Speaker 1: this down and turn this up? Um? They're incredibly powerful people,

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Speaker 1: incredibly powerful people. If they don't do anything different than

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Speaker 1: I would see the trajectory of just complete total burnout

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Speaker 1: and disappointment and trying to find something else to chase.

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Speaker 1: And I mean your body when you're sixteen, We'll give

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Speaker 1: you energy to do this, but it'll it'll stop after

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Speaker 1: a while. It's kind of like your your your body

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Speaker 1: gets kind of smart about now we did that before

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Speaker 1: and I got nothing for that. I'm not doing that anymore. So. UM,

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Speaker 1: it's almost like an addiction, like addictive behavior. We always

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Speaker 1: see the person with the addiction. We get up all

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Speaker 1: hours in the morning and walk from wherever to wherever

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Speaker 1: to to seek something um and we're like, where did

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Speaker 1: that energy come from? But at some point it's not sustainable.

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Speaker 1: I would love to have that level of confidence that

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Speaker 1: she has. Well, that just comes from hard work, That

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Speaker 1: comes from just cheer, grit and studying and reading and

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Speaker 1: reading over and over and over. I mean, she just

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Speaker 1: nails everything. But she's not afraid. And maybe this is

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Speaker 1: something you can identify with two maybe on the the

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Speaker 1: both athlete and the actor parts of you. She's not

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Speaker 1: afraid of you to own or no, she didn't do

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Speaker 1: it anyway. I mean, that's that's an admirable thing, especially

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Speaker 1: for a lot of females though were not. I mean

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Speaker 1: I can't speak for a lot of people. I can

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Speaker 1: speak for myself. Not as comfortable with that, soho, that's

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Speaker 1: pretty admirable though to to you know, she's gonna do

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Speaker 1: it anyway. Now she can encroach upon your boundaries and

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Speaker 1: basically bust down the door, and that's gonna get her

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Speaker 1: in trouble and it's not going to make her a

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Speaker 1: very likable person to you. But if you could turn

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Speaker 1: some of that down and turn and turn up maybe

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Speaker 1: some of her sense of whose space am I in?

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Speaker 1: There's other people calling in my voice. But but if

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Speaker 1: we could calibrate some of these, she's an incredibly she's

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Speaker 1: an incredibly powerful person that would be unstoppable with anything, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's my opinion. What do you think? No,

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Speaker 1: no question, But she has displayed a very vulnerable side,

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Speaker 1: a very needy side, um as well. So it's one

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Speaker 1: of the you get one of the other and you

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Speaker 1: rarely get the vulnerable side, but it's there in absolute. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not safe though, And who where do we normally

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Speaker 1: see the vulnerable side with her? When do you see it?

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Speaker 1: When have you seen that? When she's out of her element,

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Speaker 1: when she's surrounded by Rory's people that you know, the

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Speaker 1: Bracebridge Genner is a perfect example. Um. Again, family encroaches

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Speaker 1: in this episode where no, I can't celebrate with you

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Speaker 1: afterwards and do what you want to do that nutty

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Speaker 1: stuff go over everything after reminant family and we were

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Speaker 1: going to go back. Yeah, it was like, this is absurd, right,

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Speaker 1: she's not considering anybody else and like we have we

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Speaker 1: have these facts. She doesn't have family obligations, she's not

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Speaker 1: busy with family doesn't exist for her. Yeah, and not Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not safe for her. Interesting, just fascinating, fascinating. And

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Speaker 1: then and it's interesting where you know she I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's the show We're set and stars hollow, so it's

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Speaker 1: kind of obvious, but but it's interesting where she feels

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Speaker 1: safe for the same places that Laura life feels safe

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Speaker 1: in the same places that Rory was brought up and

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Speaker 1: has this inherent sense of safety right in this in

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Speaker 1: this quirky little town with these people that just like you,

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Speaker 1: just like you for you, celebrate with you. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: in Terris is um in in her just being. It's

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Speaker 1: funny because she, you know, like Rory may ask her

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Speaker 1: a question, it's just a question, why do you want

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Speaker 1: to know that? Yeah, It's like before I answer, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, what is this for? So she you know she,

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Speaker 1: I think Paris can't perceive that you don't have an agenda.

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Speaker 1: I have an agenda. Trust issues, but I have an agenda.

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Speaker 1: You all have an agenda. Which is a very young

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Speaker 1: way of thinking too, kind of how kids think, not

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Speaker 1: just not I don't know I'm talking about teenagers, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's a very very young way. I think this way.

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Speaker 1: I like chocolate ice cream. Why don't you like chocolate

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Speaker 1: ice doesn't make any sense to me. And so Paris,

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Speaker 1: you'll see that that almost that little girl park come

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Speaker 1: out to lots of ages. But yeah, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a case of a rested emotional development. For sure,

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Speaker 1: her brain is developing, but her her emotional like you,

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Speaker 1: is very low. It's very very very young, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have and and again it's hard to grow. And

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Speaker 1: I think we talked about this before when we were

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Speaker 1: talking about Lorala. It's hard to grow when there's not safety.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't in Paris, doesn't play. You don't

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Speaker 1: play when there's not safety. You don't really get curious.

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Speaker 1: You know. We'd say she's brilliant and she studies, but

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Speaker 1: that's not really curiosity. That's that's learned this No, this

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Speaker 1: recite this that that's not curious learning learning for the

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Speaker 1: wrong reasons. It's it's important, but it's not. It's not

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Speaker 1: all there is though, But it's not safe for her. Again,

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Speaker 1: it's not safe for her um to do this. And

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Speaker 1: it's not even on the radar. She is like this,

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Speaker 1: this laser pointed armored car, very sensitized alarm system with

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Speaker 1: every type of defense on it, that just plows through

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Speaker 1: on a fast track, the fastest track possible to Harvard. Right,

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Speaker 1: whatever Harvard says, I'm going to do and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be a manufactured person. Yes, and then and then

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Speaker 1: we like we like you were asking, you know what,

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Speaker 1: what what's inside of her head? I don't know if

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Speaker 1: she's ever thought about what happens the day after, what

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Speaker 1: happens to the next day, right, right, doesn't think about

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Speaker 1: the consequences, doesn't think long term. There's no long term thinking. Interesting, Kim,

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Speaker 1: we have to break it off. The session. Um fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It's always fascinating to talk to you. I could talk

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Speaker 1: to you for hours and hours and hours, my god. Um,

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Speaker 1: any we thank you for coming on. Thank you. It's

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Speaker 1: always it's always the most interesting part of this. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to have you back again. And all the

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Speaker 1: best to you. We'll see you next time. Okay, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. Right, a lot of fun. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. Hey, everybody, and don't forget follow us on

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Speaker 1: Instagram at I Am all In podcast and email us

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Speaker 1: at Gilmore at I heart radio dot com. Oh you,

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Speaker 1: gil More fans. If you're looking for the best cup

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