WEBVTT - Why Would I Do That to Jennifer Lopez? | The Mistakes Series 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:21.156 --> 0:00:25.156 This guy calls me like seven in the morning, like 0:00:25.276 --> 0:00:26.156 Tommy was South. 0:00:26.996 --> 0:00:29.196 In two thousand and one, the head of Sony Music, 0:00:29.316 --> 0:00:33.236 Tommy Mottola called the rap producer IRV Gotti at the 0:00:33.236 --> 0:00:36.196 time God. He worked with jay Z, Ja Rule, Ashanti, 0:00:36.316 --> 0:00:39.436 DMX in the hip hop world of the early arts. 0:00:39.636 --> 0:00:40.916 He was at the top of his game. 0:00:41.596 --> 0:00:43.476 He's like, Yo, I need you to make a record. 0:00:44.356 --> 0:00:45.996 And I said what he said, make a record with 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:48.636 j Lo and put jaw on it and make it 0:00:48.676 --> 0:00:54.356 a duet. And I say, yo, I need total creative 0:00:54.396 --> 0:00:57.676 at TIMS. I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Tommy 0:00:57.796 --> 0:00:59.876 was like, you could do whatever the fuck you want 0:01:00.196 --> 0:01:02.436 as long as it's a duet with Ja Ruhl and 0:01:02.636 --> 0:01:02.996 j Loo. 0:01:03.636 --> 0:01:06.116 Mattolo wanted Gotti to do a remix if I'm Real, 0:01:06.556 --> 0:01:09.676 a single off Jaelo's second album. The first time around, 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:12.556 it had been a generic ballad. Matola thought it could 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:16.156 be reinvigorated God. He went to work and started to 0:01:16.196 --> 0:01:18.836 make a demo with John Ruhl and Ashanti. 0:01:19.596 --> 0:01:21.516 I said, yo, I got the record it, so I'm Real. 0:01:22.036 --> 0:01:24.916 Him and his wife Talia come to the crackhouse, my 0:01:25.036 --> 0:01:28.996 studio and solo and it's funny because the freight elevator 0:01:29.076 --> 0:01:32.876 used to always go out. So him and Talia walked 0:01:32.956 --> 0:01:34.476 up six flights of stairs. 0:01:35.236 --> 0:01:38.076 He gets upstairs, he said, this fucking record better be 0:01:38.196 --> 0:01:38.916 fucking good. 0:01:39.596 --> 0:01:43.196 So I played I play real form. Him and his 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:46.436 wife go crazy. They're like, oh my god, it was 0:01:46.436 --> 0:01:48.796 a one listen. They listened and it was like, it's 0:01:48.796 --> 0:01:49.716 the biggest record. 0:01:50.396 --> 0:01:51.156 So he puts me. 0:01:51.116 --> 0:01:55.156 On a private jet. I fly to La record the 0:01:55.196 --> 0:01:57.716 record with j Lo. Next thing you know, the record 0:01:57.716 --> 0:01:58.196 comes out. 0:01:58.196 --> 0:01:59.556 It's all over the radio. 0:01:59.916 --> 0:02:03.716 I'm talking about maybe a couple of days after we 0:02:03.876 --> 0:02:04.956 recorded it, it's. 0:02:04.796 --> 0:02:10.996 All over the radio. 0:02:18.196 --> 0:02:21.196 A few months later, God, he made another remix from 0:02:21.276 --> 0:02:25.036 Jalo's album Ain't It Funny? The same thing happened. 0:02:25.676 --> 0:02:29.356 You don't even understand. Those records was colossal, not just 0:02:29.436 --> 0:02:32.236 in the States, on the planet Earth. I don't give 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:35.356 a fuck if you went to Germany, Australia, Africa. That 0:02:35.396 --> 0:02:37.996 shit was in the heavy rotation. Look, those are the 0:02:38.116 --> 0:02:41.236 two biggest records. And for me to do, i'mral and 0:02:41.316 --> 0:02:44.836 in staid. Fuck it and Ain't It Funny? It was like, 0:02:45.956 --> 0:02:49.076 at that point in my life, I was like on 0:02:49.156 --> 0:02:52.676 top of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility. 0:02:52.796 --> 0:02:54.396 It was a feeling of I could do whatever the 0:02:54.436 --> 0:02:59.716 fuck I want. To portray who I was at that moment. 0:02:59.836 --> 0:03:03.756 That's that's who I was. I'm from the hood. I'm 0:03:03.756 --> 0:03:07.596 making all of this money. I'm producing records for everybody. 0:03:07.756 --> 0:03:10.396 All of them are working and going number one, and 0:03:10.516 --> 0:03:12.876 money's raining from the sky. I could do no wrong. 0:03:15.356 --> 0:03:17.716 It was at this point that Irv God he made 0:03:17.756 --> 0:03:23.076 a mistake. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 0:03:23.156 --> 0:03:28.716 Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This 0:03:28.916 --> 0:03:32.596 is the third episode in our mini series inspired by 0:03:32.596 --> 0:03:36.876 Michael Linton and Josh Steiner's book From Mistakes to Meaning Will. 0:03:36.876 --> 0:03:39.036 The authors sit down with a wide range of people 0:03:39.236 --> 0:03:41.756 and try to make sense of their biggest screw ups. 0:03:42.236 --> 0:03:45.436 One of their interviews was with IRV Gotty, just before 0:03:45.476 --> 0:03:47.756 God he had a stroke and died at the age 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:51.116 of fifty four. I listened to the interview and I 0:03:51.236 --> 0:03:54.356 found his story so moving that I asked Steiner and 0:03:54.396 --> 0:03:57.916 Linton if I could include it in this series because 0:03:57.956 --> 0:04:00.996 in his story, I think is a really important lesson, 0:04:01.716 --> 0:04:04.796 not about the person who makes the mistake, but about 0:04:04.836 --> 0:04:09.036 the people around the person who makes the mistake. The witnesses. 0:04:13.636 --> 0:04:16.716 Man I grew up, Oh, man, I grew up. Let 0:04:16.756 --> 0:04:20.156 me let me describe. I'm the youngest of eight kids. 0:04:20.476 --> 0:04:23.236 This is Gotty talking to Litten and Steiner about his 0:04:23.356 --> 0:04:26.276 childhood and growing up in Queen's We. 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:31.636 Have no money. We live in the home. I sleep 0:04:31.676 --> 0:04:34.436 in the attic. You ever slept in the attic of 0:04:34.436 --> 0:04:36.996 a house in the summertime. 0:04:37.076 --> 0:04:39.556 There's no refuge. It's a hundred change. 0:04:39.916 --> 0:04:42.716 Yes, you wake up every every day, you wake up 0:04:42.756 --> 0:04:45.956 in a puddle of sweat, like I had. 0:04:46.156 --> 0:04:49.356 That was my life. That's it was a lot of love. 0:04:49.676 --> 0:04:52.716 My family, the most loving family. But we had nothing. 0:04:54.156 --> 0:04:59.676 So when you talk about the ship, you told me, 0:04:59.756 --> 0:05:03.396 I'm not I don't give a fuck. Yo, I'm getting money. 0:05:03.516 --> 0:05:06.996 Oh I'm gonna I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna work 0:05:07.036 --> 0:05:09.396 my ass off and get it. I don't give fuck 0:05:09.476 --> 0:05:10.356 what comes from it. 0:05:11.916 --> 0:05:17.036 He was blunt, reckless, ambitious, and hugely talented. His rise 0:05:17.076 --> 0:05:20.236 in the music world was swift. It was no accident 0:05:20.236 --> 0:05:23.476 than Buttola called Gotti to work with Jennifer Lopez, then 0:05:23.636 --> 0:05:25.596 well on her way to becoming one of the biggest 0:05:25.596 --> 0:05:28.636 celebrities in America, and when the two of them met 0:05:28.636 --> 0:05:32.596 at Gotti's recording studio, Gotti from Queen's Jayla from the 0:05:32.596 --> 0:05:37.636 Bronx to click. Just so you know what to expect, 0:05:38.036 --> 0:05:39.876 We're giving you the unfiltered Gottie. 0:05:41.716 --> 0:05:45.356 So I had like thirty hood niggas in the studio 0:05:45.916 --> 0:05:49.876 and in walks j Loo, and she was straight Jenny 0:05:49.916 --> 0:05:50.516 from the block. 0:05:50.796 --> 0:05:53.636 She had on some sweat pants and the tank top. 0:05:54.396 --> 0:05:57.236 And if I tell you, she got in that studio 0:05:57.956 --> 0:06:01.956 and she had every one of my guys fall in 0:06:01.956 --> 0:06:06.156 love with her. She worked and talked to everybody and 0:06:06.396 --> 0:06:09.756 houses like, Yo, she's just so dope. You know what 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:12.436 I'm saying, Because she could have been on some I'm 0:06:12.476 --> 0:06:13.876 a big star boogie shit. 0:06:14.276 --> 0:06:18.316 But she was a total opposite. 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:24.156 The biggest sex symbol, biggest superstar, got on some sweatpants. 0:06:23.476 --> 0:06:28.356 Her as was looking fucking phenomenal. She worked, She literally 0:06:28.516 --> 0:06:32.236 worked the whole home. Like when she left, every guy 0:06:32.396 --> 0:06:35.356 was like, Yo, she's dope. I think she liked me. 0:06:35.796 --> 0:06:39.116 I'm like, yo, dog, she's she worked us. Yeah, she 0:06:39.116 --> 0:06:41.596 she worked the fucking rouge. But I thought it was 0:06:41.636 --> 0:06:46.636 so dope of us and me and her specifically. 0:06:47.636 --> 0:06:52.636 Yo, we hit it off. Benny Medina, Her manager, Benny 0:06:52.756 --> 0:06:58.276 Medina was like HERV you're gonna be like the Quincy Jones. 0:06:58.316 --> 0:07:01.556 To her Michael Jackson, she was like, We're not doing 0:07:01.716 --> 0:07:05.116 nothing musically unless you're involved. 0:07:07.156 --> 0:07:09.716 A year later, Ellen Magazine decid I to do a 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.916 cover story on Jennifer Lopez. It was for their Sex 0:07:12.996 --> 0:07:17.156 and Body issue June two thousand and two, headline Big Letters. 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:23.236 Jlo on fashion that song and Puffy. Puffy referred to 0:07:23.236 --> 0:07:27.316 Puffy Combs, the infamous rap impresario who she'd just broken 0:07:27.396 --> 0:07:30.956 up with, and that song referred to Ain't It Funny? 0:07:31.436 --> 0:07:35.116 Because Gotti's reinterpretation of the song turned it into the 0:07:35.116 --> 0:07:38.956 story of someone coming out of a very problematic relationship. 0:07:39.756 --> 0:07:44.236 The writer asks her, is that song about Puffy? She says, no, 0:07:44.596 --> 0:07:48.596 it's not. Then the reporter calls gotty. Jlo says, ain't 0:07:48.596 --> 0:07:51.756 it funny? Isn't about Puffy? What do you say? And 0:07:51.836 --> 0:07:57.196 Gody says, oh, It's absolutely about Puffy, and Jlo knows it. 0:07:58.116 --> 0:08:01.716 Here's the exact quote from the l magazine article, which 0:08:01.836 --> 0:08:04.236 by the way, is nearly impossible to find. 0:08:04.236 --> 0:08:04.396 Now. 0:08:04.836 --> 0:08:06.996 My producer had to get someone at the New York 0:08:07.036 --> 0:08:10.036 Public Library to unearth the issue from an off site 0:08:10.116 --> 0:08:13.916 storage unit. I ain't gonna lie. We was thinking of 0:08:13.996 --> 0:08:16.796 effing with Puffy because that's what the world wants to hear. 0:08:18.596 --> 0:08:21.236 And God, he tells the reporter a story about running 0:08:21.236 --> 0:08:24.596 into Puffy before Ain't it funny came out and playing 0:08:24.676 --> 0:08:28.516 him the demo. He says, you know the four Seasons 0:08:28.556 --> 0:08:31.716 on Dohaney in LA I pull up and Puffs out 0:08:31.756 --> 0:08:34.356 there with his security and I say, Puff, come listen 0:08:34.396 --> 0:08:36.276 to the new record I did with your old bitch. 0:08:37.036 --> 0:08:37.556 So boom. 0:08:37.596 --> 0:08:39.876 He gets in the car, so I'm blasting the record 0:08:40.036 --> 0:08:42.476 and when it gets to the second verse, he jumps 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:47.116 out of the car, screaming, gotty, you bastard, this is 0:08:47.116 --> 0:08:47.876 the second verse. 0:08:48.116 --> 0:08:52.476 Listen, you never had to be this well, you should 0:08:52.476 --> 0:08:55.516 have never played the game to play now see and 0:08:55.636 --> 0:08:59.996 that you can. 0:09:00.876 --> 0:09:04.916 He calls Jelo's ex boyfriend into his car and says, 0:09:05.636 --> 0:09:07.876 come listen to the new record I just did with 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:12.236 your old bitch in a very public way. God, he 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:16.956 was essentially saying Jennifer Lopez wasn't being honest. He called 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:18.396 her credibility into. 0:09:18.236 --> 0:09:21.116 Question when I read it in that magazine. 0:09:23.636 --> 0:09:28.716 J Lo quote, those records are not about puff Daddy 0:09:29.156 --> 0:09:30.716 end quote. It was. 0:09:32.276 --> 0:09:36.596 It's the worst mistake I've ever made in my life. 0:09:36.676 --> 0:09:40.436 Because I say that to say because j Lo, Benny Medina, 0:09:41.516 --> 0:09:42.396 they was friends. 0:09:42.436 --> 0:09:45.596 They loved me, they love me like I was a 0:09:45.636 --> 0:09:46.596 writer for them and. 0:09:48.276 --> 0:09:50.876 I would do things for them that probably no one 0:09:50.916 --> 0:09:55.036 else could do, and I would get done for them, and. 0:09:57.516 --> 0:09:58.796 She was my friend. 0:09:59.516 --> 0:10:02.876 Like, why the fuck would I say that? Why the 0:10:02.996 --> 0:10:04.076 fuck would I say that? 0:10:04.956 --> 0:10:08.476 But God, he didn't stop there. He kept going right. 0:10:09.356 --> 0:10:15.036 So I went on to say other damaging things, like 0:10:15.436 --> 0:10:17.636 how would she know? She didn't write the records. We 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:19.436 made the records and wrote the records. 0:10:19.596 --> 0:10:22.476 She just did what we said, so she don't know 0:10:22.476 --> 0:10:26.036 who the fuck we was talking about. And yeah, we 0:10:26.076 --> 0:10:32.956 was talking about Diddy. And then I said some more 0:10:33.076 --> 0:10:35.396 damaging shit. I was like, guys like me, we didn't 0:10:35.516 --> 0:10:37.796 listen to Jay, we don't listen to Jalo's music. I 0:10:37.836 --> 0:10:41.076 made guys like me listen to j Loo's music. I said, 0:10:41.116 --> 0:10:44.156 before then we just hit the mute button and looked 0:10:44.156 --> 0:10:46.596 at her ass. Yeah. 0:10:47.356 --> 0:10:49.876 God. He reflected on this with Michael Linton and Josh 0:10:49.916 --> 0:10:52.316 Steiner when they spoke, wow. 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:54.316 And you can pull all this up in the L 0:10:54.436 --> 0:10:58.356 magazine is there? Those are vivid quotes. 0:10:59.956 --> 0:11:06.476 Those are like supreme asshole quotes. That wasn't warranted. And 0:11:06.476 --> 0:11:09.276 when I look back, I was like, what did you 0:11:09.316 --> 0:11:10.516 do to your friend? 0:11:11.876 --> 0:11:13.956 Yeah? 0:11:13.996 --> 0:11:17.276 So, needless to say, needless to say, I ruined my 0:11:17.796 --> 0:11:24.476 relationship with j Lo. I apologized, I sent to Candy 0:11:24.556 --> 0:11:29.516 and flowers and apologized a million times, and I was high. 0:11:29.916 --> 0:11:32.716 That's no excuse, you know what I'm saying. 0:11:33.036 --> 0:11:36.436 I apologize for us, and she accepted my apology, but 0:11:37.076 --> 0:11:39.796 it forever damaged your relationship. 0:11:40.676 --> 0:11:40.916 Right. 0:11:41.676 --> 0:11:44.436 You know, superstars like j Loo, they have a small 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:46.716 circle of people who they could trust. 0:11:46.756 --> 0:11:49.796 And I think I was in there for a second 0:11:50.796 --> 0:11:57.076 and I totally ruined it. Right, So I'm an asshole. 0:11:58.436 --> 0:11:59.596 Well you were in that moment. 0:12:00.556 --> 0:12:05.076 I'm totally in the wrong, and I'm a complete idiot. 0:12:06.516 --> 0:12:08.596 Make sure you say that that I said that I'm 0:12:08.636 --> 0:12:12.276 a complete She didn't warrant that, she didn't warrant nothing 0:12:12.316 --> 0:12:16.276 that I said. She was my friend, And why would 0:12:16.316 --> 0:12:18.556 I do that with the biggest thought and the most 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:34.476 beautifulest person. Why how did I do that with Jalm. 0:12:36.196 --> 0:12:38.276 One of the themes we've tried to explore in this 0:12:38.396 --> 0:12:42.756 series is that mistakes have roots. They aren't random events. 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:46.156 They come from somewhere. They arise out of a context, 0:12:46.516 --> 0:12:50.196 but the context often isn't obvious, not to those around 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:53.116 the mistake maker, and often not even to the mistake 0:12:53.156 --> 0:12:58.156 maker themselves. In Gotty's case, the context was a telephone 0:12:58.156 --> 0:13:01.516 call had been on just before the reporter called. It 0:13:01.636 --> 0:13:04.956 was with a prominent music industry executive God. He asked 0:13:04.996 --> 0:13:07.436 that the man's name not be used, so we're gonna 0:13:07.436 --> 0:13:09.916 bleep out every mention of his name. All you need 0:13:09.956 --> 0:13:13.316 to know is that the executive is white, and God 0:13:13.316 --> 0:13:16.116 he was black. The two of them had an argument. 0:13:16.516 --> 0:13:18.676 One of God's artists had played a part in a 0:13:18.756 --> 0:13:21.316 hit song and was in the music video, but had 0:13:21.356 --> 0:13:23.796 been left out of the radio version, and God he 0:13:23.876 --> 0:13:24.836 was unhappy about it. 0:13:25.916 --> 0:13:29.796 So I was like, yo, you kill him my artists. 0:13:30.556 --> 0:13:33.796 You got him on the video, but on radio he's 0:13:33.836 --> 0:13:37.036 not there. It's and then like mixed signals, why are 0:13:37.036 --> 0:13:37.636 you hurting me? 0:13:38.516 --> 0:13:42.236 Their argument got heated. The executive said it wasn't his fault, 0:13:42.596 --> 0:13:46.156 the decision was someone else's at his label, a black man. 0:13:46.836 --> 0:13:50.996 He was like I told that fat nigga not to 0:13:51.356 --> 0:13:53.676 not to put this out. 0:13:53.876 --> 0:13:56.636 But when he said the N word, Oh, that's when 0:13:56.876 --> 0:13:57.756 I weren't crazy. 0:13:58.196 --> 0:13:58.476 Wow. 0:13:58.636 --> 0:14:01.916 I said, what the fuck you say? I said, you 0:14:01.996 --> 0:14:06.636 just call Cory Roon and nigga. I said, when when 0:14:06.676 --> 0:14:10.036 this nigga see you, I'm gonna fuck you up. I said, 0:14:10.036 --> 0:14:10.676 how about that? 0:14:11.276 --> 0:14:14.316 And he was like irving it and we arguing, Yeah, 0:14:14.316 --> 0:14:16.716 but he said he used the N word on some 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:19.356 racist shit. He said, I told that fat nigga not 0:14:19.476 --> 0:14:21.236 to put the record out or put him on it. 0:14:23.196 --> 0:14:26.796 Yeah, but when he said nigga, I went, that's that's 0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:29.476 that's the anger. 0:14:30.036 --> 0:14:30.236 Yep. 0:14:31.596 --> 0:14:36.516 I'm not a volatile person. I'm not a pop off. 0:14:36.316 --> 0:14:39.916 I would describe myself as a cool guy, level headed. 0:14:40.716 --> 0:14:46.596 But it's something about when a white person like uses 0:14:46.636 --> 0:14:47.156 the word. 0:14:47.036 --> 0:14:52.876 Nigga to me, m Oh, I'm ready to kill because 0:14:52.876 --> 0:14:53.356 it's like. 0:14:55.116 --> 0:14:57.476 You start thinking of all of the fucked up shit 0:14:57.556 --> 0:14:59.516 that black people have been through when you got the 0:14:59.596 --> 0:15:02.356 audacity to say nigga in front of me. 0:15:03.516 --> 0:15:05.596 Oh, I'm gonna show you a nigga. Now you know 0:15:05.636 --> 0:15:07.956 what I'm saying. Like I used to always say, like 0:15:08.556 --> 0:15:09.636 people would that ask me. 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:13.356 How would you be able how how would you think 0:15:13.396 --> 0:15:19.276 you would be able to operate in those times of racism? 0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:23.636 And I always answer, I would die. 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:26.436 You know what I'm saying, because I couldn't take the 0:15:26.756 --> 0:15:31.076 racism that would have been bestowed upon me. I would 0:15:31.076 --> 0:15:33.556 have killed me a couple of white people and they 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:36.036 would have hung me and killed me, and my life 0:15:36.076 --> 0:15:36.676 would be over. 0:15:37.596 --> 0:15:38.596 I couldn't take. 0:15:38.436 --> 0:15:41.996 Them doing something to my mother or you know, hanging 0:15:42.116 --> 0:15:43.556 my father and I'm living life. 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:48.316 Nah, you're gonna have to kill me too. So these 0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:50.316 are the thoughts that's in my mind. 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:53.956 Yeah, have you experienced that before where you had white 0:15:53.956 --> 0:15:54.636 people say things? 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:54.956 Would you? 0:15:55.276 --> 0:15:57.556 A lot of my white friends to say, Yo, that's 0:15:57.596 --> 0:15:59.356 my nigga. But I'm not mad at that. 0:16:00.436 --> 0:16:04.516 Yeah, use it when they say that's my nigga. 0:16:04.516 --> 0:16:06.916 It's in I gg A. 0:16:07.796 --> 0:16:11.236 He said, Yo, I told that fat nigga, that's n 0:16:11.316 --> 0:16:14.196 I G g e R. It's a big, big difference, 0:16:14.876 --> 0:16:18.116 Like I couldn't I couldn't believe that he just used 0:16:18.116 --> 0:16:19.876 the N word to me. 0:16:21.516 --> 0:16:25.516 That's what made me so volatile, And it was so weird. 0:16:25.596 --> 0:16:27.356 It was like as soon as I hung up with 0:16:27.756 --> 0:16:31.436 the phone, rang with l It wasn't like a five 0:16:31.516 --> 0:16:33.876 minute It wasn't even like a five minute. 0:16:33.836 --> 0:16:34.876 Cool off period. 0:16:35.116 --> 0:16:41.756 No, hung up, man, Yo, this is that old magazine. Dude, 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:47.116 what the fuck y'all want? I'd like saying hello a 0:16:47.116 --> 0:16:50.156 little different, can I ask? 0:16:50.356 --> 0:16:52.876 So, what do you think it was that made you? 0:16:52.876 --> 0:16:54.916 You think you were just gonna lash out at anybody 0:16:54.916 --> 0:16:56.196 who showed up in that moment? 0:16:57.436 --> 0:17:01.956 Uh yeah, within that five minutes, Yeah, they was gonna. 0:17:01.676 --> 0:17:04.516 Get the exact thing vibe, what the fuck you want? 0:17:06.116 --> 0:17:08.436 Yeah, it just so happened. 0:17:08.436 --> 0:17:10.956 It was magaz Be, not one of my boys. 0:17:12.796 --> 0:17:16.996 Yeah, so I said what the fuck you want? And 0:17:16.996 --> 0:17:19.596 he was like, oh, oh, I see you. 0:17:20.476 --> 0:17:24.396 Like as soon as he heard that response, he immediately 0:17:24.396 --> 0:17:26.796 cut to the chase. He said, oh, oh, I'll just 0:17:26.836 --> 0:17:32.276 get right to it. Uh you know, Jlo said. 0:17:32.316 --> 0:17:35.716 That the records, I'm really made it funny and not 0:17:35.836 --> 0:17:42.556 about puff daddy ex boyfriend, and I was like, what 0:17:43.356 --> 0:17:44.436 that bitch is lying? 0:17:47.316 --> 0:17:51.156 This was thereve Gotti's mistake. It changed his life. There 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:53.396 was a version of the next twenty years where he 0:17:53.396 --> 0:17:55.356 could have been a creative partner with one of the 0:17:55.356 --> 0:17:59.836 biggest stars in the world. He had ideas from movies collaborations. 0:18:00.196 --> 0:18:03.676 Jaelo was at once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why 0:18:03.716 --> 0:18:07.596 this was a mistake. It had consequences. But there was 0:18:07.636 --> 0:18:10.596 a point in Gody's interview with Steiner and Linton that 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:12.116 I couldn't get out of my mind. 0:18:12.756 --> 0:18:17.276 Listen, how quickly did you realize that you'd made a mistake. 0:18:19.396 --> 0:18:20.596 I didn't realize quickly. 0:18:22.796 --> 0:18:24.716 I was so angry and mad when I got off 0:18:24.716 --> 0:18:29.236 the phone with that magazine. I thought nothing of it. 0:18:29.236 --> 0:18:32.596 It hit me when they sent me like the transcripts 0:18:32.636 --> 0:18:34.636 of what they was gonna plant. 0:18:36.516 --> 0:18:40.916 How long after that was that? Uh, couple a week 0:18:41.036 --> 0:18:44.196 or so? I would say, all right, And when you 0:18:44.676 --> 0:18:45.876 did you realize it right away? 0:18:46.996 --> 0:18:47.196 Yeah? 0:18:47.196 --> 0:18:50.596 I was like, don't print that. They was like it's 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:54.276 too but they was like it's too late. Yeah, they 0:18:54.356 --> 0:18:54.836 loved it. 0:18:55.076 --> 0:18:58.756 They loved it, and they said it was too late. 0:18:59.556 --> 0:19:01.436 And I was trying to get them not to print it, 0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:06.676 but they wasn't. They like, hey, buddy, you said it. Yeah, 0:19:06.756 --> 0:19:08.676 did you get me try to did you get me 0:19:08.676 --> 0:19:10.036 help to try? I get them not to do it? 0:19:10.116 --> 0:19:10.916 Or and you just let it go? 0:19:12.796 --> 0:19:13.276 Let it go. 0:19:14.876 --> 0:19:17.796 I gave it myf look after my fitt I just 0:19:17.876 --> 0:19:18.316 let it go. 0:19:19.476 --> 0:19:22.236 He realized he'd made a mistake, that in his anger 0:19:22.276 --> 0:19:24.836 at one person, he had said something he didn't mean 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:27.796 to another, and when he tried to prevent his mistake 0:19:27.836 --> 0:19:31.716 from having consequences, from turning into a serious mistake, he 0:19:31.836 --> 0:19:35.156 was told, hey, buddy, you said it. It's too late. 0:19:36.596 --> 0:19:39.916 After Linton and Steiner's book came out, I interviewed them 0:19:39.956 --> 0:19:42.716 on stage at the ninety second Street Why in New York, 0:19:43.156 --> 0:19:47.276 and I brought up their chapter on Gaudy. So, who's 0:19:47.276 --> 0:19:50.716 the villain of the story. Not every story has to 0:19:50.716 --> 0:19:52.876 have a villain, No, but tell me who the villain 0:19:52.876 --> 0:19:53.396 of the stories? 0:19:54.836 --> 0:19:57.116 So don't Michael, don't fall for this like this is okay, 0:19:57.276 --> 0:19:58.836 this look at this is why he's so good. 0:19:59.076 --> 0:20:00.316 But don't fall for his trap. 0:20:00.436 --> 0:20:02.196 Like okay, you can say not everyone. 0:20:02.236 --> 0:20:04.236 I got to keep the conversation going. I would argue, 0:20:04.316 --> 0:20:07.356 this was the executive who used the N word. 0:20:07.356 --> 0:20:08.636 Josh, here's a villain of the story. 0:20:09.356 --> 0:20:11.516 Here's what I think that guy acted terribly. There is 0:20:11.516 --> 0:20:14.756 no villain in the story. And I think an important 0:20:14.796 --> 0:20:19.156 piece of what we tried to describe is that there 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:22.516 isn't always a villain. There isn't always some outside danger. 0:20:23.116 --> 0:20:26.836 There isn't always some consequence that has been derived from 0:20:26.876 --> 0:20:29.876 a villain. That these things are deep rooted in ourselves 0:20:30.116 --> 0:20:33.476 and we're not villainous, and so that aspect of our 0:20:33.516 --> 0:20:36.996 personality doesn't make us bad. This isn't a morality test. 0:20:37.596 --> 0:20:40.356 This is an opportunity to explore oneself and come to 0:20:40.596 --> 0:20:43.556 terms and acceptance of the fact that we're flawed and 0:20:43.596 --> 0:20:46.236 the way to get hopefully healthier and better to talk 0:20:46.276 --> 0:20:46.596 about it. 0:20:46.636 --> 0:20:47.516 Who do you think the villain? 0:20:47.596 --> 0:20:47.716 Is? 0:20:48.516 --> 0:20:50.516 A man who has a very close relationship to the 0:20:50.516 --> 0:20:54.116 biggest rock star in the world, a relationship that has 0:20:54.156 --> 0:20:58.036 resulted in extraordinary commercial success, is called by a reporter 0:20:58.196 --> 0:21:01.236 and has asked a question about that relationship, and in 0:21:01.276 --> 0:21:03.996 the course of answering that question, the man says, Oh, 0:21:04.036 --> 0:21:06.796 she's a liar. Who's the villain in the story? 0:21:07.116 --> 0:21:08.116 Do you think it's erv. 0:21:09.796 --> 0:21:13.476 Now it's the reporter, But the reporter does no, no, 0:21:13.476 --> 0:21:13.916 no no. 0:21:13.956 --> 0:21:18.156 This is a crucial, crucial point, Michael, and I think 0:21:18.236 --> 0:21:24.076 this is because it's about when mistakes are made and 0:21:24.276 --> 0:21:27.876 they are as deeply rooted as you suggest they are, 0:21:27.916 --> 0:21:30.156 they're not what's your The whole argument of the book 0:21:30.276 --> 0:21:32.196 is a mistake can come out in the spur of 0:21:32.236 --> 0:21:34.996 the moment, but it's not something that's coming out of 0:21:35.036 --> 0:21:36.636 the spur of the moment. It's something that has roots. 0:21:37.196 --> 0:21:39.796 And what does that require of those who are observe 0:21:39.956 --> 0:21:43.236 and are part of the process in which the mistake 0:21:43.316 --> 0:21:47.876 is played out. It requires some degree of grace and 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:54.036 forgiveness and understanding. So the reporter, here's some IRV God, 0:21:54.316 --> 0:22:00.516 IRV God. He say something that is completely out of place. Right, 0:22:00.596 --> 0:22:03.116 it makes the reason the reason that story. So that story, 0:22:03.276 --> 0:22:07.196 what you didn't what is important detail is here is 0:22:07.236 --> 0:22:10.316 it goes. It's all across the country. It's like it's huge. 0:22:10.316 --> 0:22:12.476 That's why it blows up so much. Everyone seizes on this. 0:22:13.036 --> 0:22:16.716 Her longtime collaborator called j Lo a liar. Right, if 0:22:16.756 --> 0:22:20.596 you are the reporter in that instance and someone says 0:22:20.636 --> 0:22:24.356 something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, why 0:22:24.396 --> 0:22:26.756 did you say that? And if they can't give you 0:22:26.796 --> 0:22:29.876 a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it. 0:22:30.036 --> 0:22:33.916 I'm sorry, it's not to use it. You're not, You shouldn't. 0:22:34.276 --> 0:22:38.156 You can't make someone. The reporter turned that from a 0:22:38.196 --> 0:22:42.156 nothing into a destruction of someone's career because they had 0:22:42.316 --> 0:22:46.556 not the slightest concern for his well being or his reputation, 0:22:46.836 --> 0:22:49.876