1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:21,156 --> 00:00:25,156 Speaker 2: This guy calls me like seven in the morning, like 3 00:00:25,276 --> 00:00:26,156 Speaker 2: Tommy was South. 4 00:00:26,996 --> 00:00:29,196 Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, the head of Sony Music, 5 00:00:29,316 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 1: Tommy Mottola called the rap producer IRV Gotti at the 6 00:00:33,236 --> 00:00:36,196 Speaker 1: time God. He worked with jay Z, Ja Rule, Ashanti, 7 00:00:36,316 --> 00:00:39,436 Speaker 1: DMX in the hip hop world of the early arts. 8 00:00:39,636 --> 00:00:40,916 Speaker 1: He was at the top of his game. 9 00:00:41,596 --> 00:00:43,476 Speaker 3: He's like, Yo, I need you to make a record. 10 00:00:44,356 --> 00:00:45,996 Speaker 3: And I said what he said, make a record with 11 00:00:46,116 --> 00:00:48,636 Speaker 3: j Lo and put jaw on it and make it 12 00:00:48,676 --> 00:00:54,356 Speaker 3: a duet. And I say, yo, I need total creative 13 00:00:54,396 --> 00:00:57,676 Speaker 3: at TIMS. I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Tommy 14 00:00:57,796 --> 00:00:59,876 Speaker 3: was like, you could do whatever the fuck you want 15 00:01:00,196 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 3: as long as it's a duet with Ja Ruhl and 16 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 3: j Loo. 17 00:01:03,636 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: Mattolo wanted Gotti to do a remix if I'm Real, 18 00:01:06,556 --> 00:01:09,676 Speaker 1: a single off Jaelo's second album. The first time around, 19 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:12,556 Speaker 1: it had been a generic ballad. Matola thought it could 20 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:16,156 Speaker 1: be reinvigorated God. He went to work and started to 21 00:01:16,196 --> 00:01:18,836 Speaker 1: make a demo with John Ruhl and Ashanti. 22 00:01:19,596 --> 00:01:21,516 Speaker 2: I said, yo, I got the record it, so I'm Real. 23 00:01:22,036 --> 00:01:24,916 Speaker 3: Him and his wife Talia come to the crackhouse, my 24 00:01:25,036 --> 00:01:28,996 Speaker 3: studio and solo and it's funny because the freight elevator 25 00:01:29,076 --> 00:01:32,876 Speaker 3: used to always go out. So him and Talia walked 26 00:01:32,956 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 3: up six flights of stairs. 27 00:01:35,236 --> 00:01:38,076 Speaker 2: He gets upstairs, he said, this fucking record better be 28 00:01:38,196 --> 00:01:38,916 Speaker 2: fucking good. 29 00:01:39,596 --> 00:01:43,196 Speaker 3: So I played I play real form. Him and his 30 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:46,436 Speaker 3: wife go crazy. They're like, oh my god, it was 31 00:01:46,436 --> 00:01:48,796 Speaker 3: a one listen. They listened and it was like, it's 32 00:01:48,796 --> 00:01:49,716 Speaker 3: the biggest record. 33 00:01:50,396 --> 00:01:51,156 Speaker 4: So he puts me. 34 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 3: On a private jet. I fly to La record the 35 00:01:55,196 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 3: record with j Lo. Next thing you know, the record 36 00:01:57,716 --> 00:01:58,196 Speaker 3: comes out. 37 00:01:58,196 --> 00:01:59,556 Speaker 2: It's all over the radio. 38 00:01:59,916 --> 00:02:03,716 Speaker 3: I'm talking about maybe a couple of days after we 39 00:02:03,876 --> 00:02:04,956 Speaker 3: recorded it, it's. 40 00:02:04,796 --> 00:02:10,996 Speaker 2: All over the radio. 41 00:02:18,196 --> 00:02:21,196 Speaker 1: A few months later, God, he made another remix from 42 00:02:21,276 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 1: Jalo's album Ain't It Funny? The same thing happened. 43 00:02:25,676 --> 00:02:29,356 Speaker 3: You don't even understand. Those records was colossal, not just 44 00:02:29,436 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 3: in the States, on the planet Earth. I don't give 45 00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:35,356 Speaker 3: a fuck if you went to Germany, Australia, Africa. That 46 00:02:35,396 --> 00:02:37,996 Speaker 3: shit was in the heavy rotation. Look, those are the 47 00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:41,236 Speaker 3: two biggest records. And for me to do, i'mral and 48 00:02:41,316 --> 00:02:44,836 Speaker 3: in staid. Fuck it and Ain't It Funny? It was like, 49 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 3: at that point in my life, I was like on 50 00:02:49,156 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 3: top of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility. 51 00:02:52,796 --> 00:02:54,396 Speaker 3: It was a feeling of I could do whatever the 52 00:02:54,436 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 3: fuck I want. To portray who I was at that moment. 53 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:03,756 Speaker 3: That's that's who I was. I'm from the hood. I'm 54 00:03:03,756 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 3: making all of this money. I'm producing records for everybody. 55 00:03:07,756 --> 00:03:10,396 Speaker 2: All of them are working and going number one, and 56 00:03:10,516 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 2: money's raining from the sky. I could do no wrong. 57 00:03:15,356 --> 00:03:17,716 Speaker 1: It was at this point that Irv God he made 58 00:03:17,756 --> 00:03:23,076 Speaker 1: a mistake. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 59 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:28,716 Speaker 1: Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This 60 00:03:28,916 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 1: is the third episode in our mini series inspired by 61 00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:36,876 Speaker 1: Michael Linton and Josh Steiner's book From Mistakes to Meaning Will. 62 00:03:36,876 --> 00:03:39,036 Speaker 1: The authors sit down with a wide range of people 63 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:41,756 Speaker 1: and try to make sense of their biggest screw ups. 64 00:03:42,236 --> 00:03:45,436 Speaker 1: One of their interviews was with IRV Gotty, just before 65 00:03:45,476 --> 00:03:47,756 Speaker 1: God he had a stroke and died at the age 66 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:51,116 Speaker 1: of fifty four. I listened to the interview and I 67 00:03:51,236 --> 00:03:54,356 Speaker 1: found his story so moving that I asked Steiner and 68 00:03:54,396 --> 00:03:57,916 Speaker 1: Linton if I could include it in this series because 69 00:03:57,956 --> 00:04:00,996 Speaker 1: in his story, I think is a really important lesson, 70 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:04,796 Speaker 1: not about the person who makes the mistake, but about 71 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 1: the people around the person who makes the mistake. The witnesses. 72 00:04:13,636 --> 00:04:16,716 Speaker 2: Man I grew up, Oh, man, I grew up. Let 73 00:04:16,756 --> 00:04:20,156 Speaker 2: me let me describe. I'm the youngest of eight kids. 74 00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:23,236 Speaker 1: This is Gotty talking to Litten and Steiner about his 75 00:04:23,356 --> 00:04:26,276 Speaker 1: childhood and growing up in Queen's We. 76 00:04:26,356 --> 00:04:31,636 Speaker 3: Have no money. We live in the home. I sleep 77 00:04:31,676 --> 00:04:34,436 Speaker 3: in the attic. You ever slept in the attic of 78 00:04:34,436 --> 00:04:36,996 Speaker 3: a house in the summertime. 79 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:39,556 Speaker 2: There's no refuge. It's a hundred change. 80 00:04:39,916 --> 00:04:42,716 Speaker 5: Yes, you wake up every every day, you wake up 81 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:45,956 Speaker 5: in a puddle of sweat, like I had. 82 00:04:46,156 --> 00:04:49,356 Speaker 3: That was my life. That's it was a lot of love. 83 00:04:49,676 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 3: My family, the most loving family. But we had nothing. 84 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:59,676 Speaker 3: So when you talk about the ship, you told me, 85 00:04:59,756 --> 00:05:03,396 Speaker 3: I'm not I don't give a fuck. Yo, I'm getting money. 86 00:05:03,516 --> 00:05:06,996 Speaker 3: Oh I'm gonna I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna work 87 00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:09,396 Speaker 3: my ass off and get it. I don't give fuck 88 00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:10,356 Speaker 3: what comes from it. 89 00:05:11,916 --> 00:05:17,036 Speaker 1: He was blunt, reckless, ambitious, and hugely talented. His rise 90 00:05:17,076 --> 00:05:20,236 Speaker 1: in the music world was swift. It was no accident 91 00:05:20,236 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: than Buttola called Gotti to work with Jennifer Lopez, then 92 00:05:23,636 --> 00:05:25,596 Speaker 1: well on her way to becoming one of the biggest 93 00:05:25,596 --> 00:05:28,636 Speaker 1: celebrities in America, and when the two of them met 94 00:05:28,636 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 1: at Gotti's recording studio, Gotti from Queen's Jayla from the 95 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:37,636 Speaker 1: Bronx to click. Just so you know what to expect, 96 00:05:38,036 --> 00:05:39,876 Speaker 1: We're giving you the unfiltered Gottie. 97 00:05:41,716 --> 00:05:45,356 Speaker 3: So I had like thirty hood niggas in the studio 98 00:05:45,916 --> 00:05:49,876 Speaker 3: and in walks j Loo, and she was straight Jenny 99 00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:50,516 Speaker 3: from the block. 100 00:05:50,796 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 2: She had on some sweat pants and the tank top. 101 00:05:54,396 --> 00:05:57,236 Speaker 3: And if I tell you, she got in that studio 102 00:05:57,956 --> 00:06:01,956 Speaker 3: and she had every one of my guys fall in 103 00:06:01,956 --> 00:06:06,156 Speaker 3: love with her. She worked and talked to everybody and 104 00:06:06,396 --> 00:06:09,756 Speaker 3: houses like, Yo, she's just so dope. You know what 105 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:12,436 Speaker 3: I'm saying, Because she could have been on some I'm 106 00:06:12,476 --> 00:06:13,876 Speaker 3: a big star boogie shit. 107 00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:18,316 Speaker 2: But she was a total opposite. 108 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:24,156 Speaker 3: The biggest sex symbol, biggest superstar, got on some sweatpants. 109 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:28,356 Speaker 6: Her as was looking fucking phenomenal. She worked, She literally 110 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:32,236 Speaker 6: worked the whole home. Like when she left, every guy 111 00:06:32,396 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 6: was like, Yo, she's dope. I think she liked me. 112 00:06:35,796 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 6: I'm like, yo, dog, she's she worked us. Yeah, she 113 00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:41,596 Speaker 6: she worked the fucking rouge. But I thought it was 114 00:06:41,636 --> 00:06:46,636 Speaker 6: so dope of us and me and her specifically. 115 00:06:47,636 --> 00:06:52,636 Speaker 2: Yo, we hit it off. Benny Medina, Her manager, Benny 116 00:06:52,756 --> 00:06:58,276 Speaker 2: Medina was like HERV you're gonna be like the Quincy Jones. 117 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:01,556 Speaker 5: To her Michael Jackson, she was like, We're not doing 118 00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:05,116 Speaker 5: nothing musically unless you're involved. 119 00:07:07,156 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 1: A year later, Ellen Magazine decid I to do a 120 00:07:09,756 --> 00:07:12,916 Speaker 1: cover story on Jennifer Lopez. It was for their Sex 121 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:17,156 Speaker 1: and Body issue June two thousand and two, headline Big Letters. 122 00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:23,236 Speaker 1: Jlo on fashion that song and Puffy. Puffy referred to 123 00:07:23,236 --> 00:07:27,316 Speaker 1: Puffy Combs, the infamous rap impresario who she'd just broken 124 00:07:27,396 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: up with, and that song referred to Ain't It Funny? 125 00:07:31,436 --> 00:07:35,116 Speaker 1: Because Gotti's reinterpretation of the song turned it into the 126 00:07:35,116 --> 00:07:38,956 Speaker 1: story of someone coming out of a very problematic relationship. 127 00:07:39,756 --> 00:07:44,236 Speaker 1: The writer asks her, is that song about Puffy? She says, no, 128 00:07:44,596 --> 00:07:48,596 Speaker 1: it's not. Then the reporter calls gotty. Jlo says, ain't 129 00:07:48,596 --> 00:07:51,756 Speaker 1: it funny? Isn't about Puffy? What do you say? And 130 00:07:51,836 --> 00:07:57,196 Speaker 1: Gody says, oh, It's absolutely about Puffy, and Jlo knows it. 131 00:07:58,116 --> 00:08:01,716 Speaker 1: Here's the exact quote from the l magazine article, which 132 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:04,236 Speaker 1: by the way, is nearly impossible to find. 133 00:08:04,236 --> 00:08:04,396 Speaker 2: Now. 134 00:08:04,836 --> 00:08:06,996 Speaker 1: My producer had to get someone at the New York 135 00:08:07,036 --> 00:08:10,036 Speaker 1: Public Library to unearth the issue from an off site 136 00:08:10,116 --> 00:08:13,916 Speaker 1: storage unit. I ain't gonna lie. We was thinking of 137 00:08:13,996 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 1: effing with Puffy because that's what the world wants to hear. 138 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 1: And God, he tells the reporter a story about running 139 00:08:21,236 --> 00:08:24,596 Speaker 1: into Puffy before Ain't it funny came out and playing 140 00:08:24,676 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 1: him the demo. He says, you know the four Seasons 141 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:31,716 Speaker 1: on Dohaney in LA I pull up and Puffs out 142 00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 1: there with his security and I say, Puff, come listen 143 00:08:34,396 --> 00:08:36,276 Speaker 1: to the new record I did with your old bitch. 144 00:08:37,036 --> 00:08:37,556 Speaker 5: So boom. 145 00:08:37,596 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 1: He gets in the car, so I'm blasting the record 146 00:08:40,036 --> 00:08:42,476 Speaker 1: and when it gets to the second verse, he jumps 147 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:47,116 Speaker 1: out of the car, screaming, gotty, you bastard, this is 148 00:08:47,116 --> 00:08:47,876 Speaker 1: the second verse. 149 00:08:48,116 --> 00:08:52,476 Speaker 7: Listen, you never had to be this well, you should 150 00:08:52,476 --> 00:08:55,516 Speaker 7: have never played the game to play now see and 151 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:59,996 Speaker 7: that you can. 152 00:09:00,876 --> 00:09:04,916 Speaker 1: He calls Jelo's ex boyfriend into his car and says, 153 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:07,876 Speaker 1: come listen to the new record I just did with 154 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:12,236 Speaker 1: your old bitch in a very public way. God, he 155 00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 1: was essentially saying Jennifer Lopez wasn't being honest. He called 156 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:18,396 Speaker 1: her credibility into. 157 00:09:18,236 --> 00:09:21,116 Speaker 2: Question when I read it in that magazine. 158 00:09:23,636 --> 00:09:28,716 Speaker 3: J Lo quote, those records are not about puff Daddy 159 00:09:29,156 --> 00:09:30,716 Speaker 3: end quote. It was. 160 00:09:32,276 --> 00:09:36,596 Speaker 2: It's the worst mistake I've ever made in my life. 161 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:40,436 Speaker 3: Because I say that to say because j Lo, Benny Medina, 162 00:09:41,516 --> 00:09:42,396 Speaker 3: they was friends. 163 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:45,596 Speaker 2: They loved me, they love me like I was a 164 00:09:45,636 --> 00:09:46,596 Speaker 2: writer for them and. 165 00:09:48,276 --> 00:09:50,876 Speaker 3: I would do things for them that probably no one 166 00:09:50,916 --> 00:09:55,036 Speaker 3: else could do, and I would get done for them, and. 167 00:09:57,516 --> 00:09:58,796 Speaker 8: She was my friend. 168 00:09:59,516 --> 00:10:02,876 Speaker 2: Like, why the fuck would I say that? Why the 169 00:10:02,996 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 2: fuck would I say that? 170 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:08,476 Speaker 1: But God, he didn't stop there. He kept going right. 171 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:15,036 Speaker 3: So I went on to say other damaging things, like 172 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:17,636 Speaker 3: how would she know? She didn't write the records. We 173 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:19,436 Speaker 3: made the records and wrote the records. 174 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:22,476 Speaker 2: She just did what we said, so she don't know 175 00:10:22,476 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 2: who the fuck we was talking about. And yeah, we 176 00:10:26,076 --> 00:10:32,956 Speaker 2: was talking about Diddy. And then I said some more 177 00:10:33,076 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 2: damaging shit. I was like, guys like me, we didn't 178 00:10:35,516 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 2: listen to Jay, we don't listen to Jalo's music. I 179 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:41,076 Speaker 2: made guys like me listen to j Loo's music. I said, 180 00:10:41,116 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 2: before then we just hit the mute button and looked 181 00:10:44,156 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 2: at her ass. Yeah. 182 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:49,876 Speaker 1: God. He reflected on this with Michael Linton and Josh 183 00:10:49,916 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 1: Steiner when they spoke, wow. 184 00:10:52,396 --> 00:10:54,316 Speaker 2: And you can pull all this up in the L 185 00:10:54,436 --> 00:10:58,356 Speaker 2: magazine is there? Those are vivid quotes. 186 00:10:59,956 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 3: Those are like supreme asshole quotes. That wasn't warranted. And 187 00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:09,276 Speaker 3: when I look back, I was like, what did you 188 00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:10,516 Speaker 3: do to your friend? 189 00:11:11,876 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 2: Yeah? 190 00:11:13,996 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 3: So, needless to say, needless to say, I ruined my 191 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:24,476 Speaker 3: relationship with j Lo. I apologized, I sent to Candy 192 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 3: and flowers and apologized a million times, and I was high. 193 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:32,716 Speaker 2: That's no excuse, you know what I'm saying. 194 00:11:33,036 --> 00:11:36,436 Speaker 3: I apologize for us, and she accepted my apology, but 195 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:39,796 Speaker 3: it forever damaged your relationship. 196 00:11:40,676 --> 00:11:40,916 Speaker 2: Right. 197 00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:44,436 Speaker 3: You know, superstars like j Loo, they have a small 198 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:46,716 Speaker 3: circle of people who they could trust. 199 00:11:46,756 --> 00:11:49,796 Speaker 2: And I think I was in there for a second 200 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:57,076 Speaker 2: and I totally ruined it. Right, So I'm an asshole. 201 00:11:58,436 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 2: Well you were in that moment. 202 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:05,076 Speaker 3: I'm totally in the wrong, and I'm a complete idiot. 203 00:12:06,516 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 3: Make sure you say that that I said that I'm 204 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:12,276 Speaker 3: a complete She didn't warrant that, she didn't warrant nothing 205 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:16,276 Speaker 3: that I said. She was my friend, And why would 206 00:12:16,316 --> 00:12:18,556 Speaker 3: I do that with the biggest thought and the most 207 00:12:18,596 --> 00:12:34,476 Speaker 3: beautifulest person. Why how did I do that with Jalm. 208 00:12:36,196 --> 00:12:38,276 Speaker 1: One of the themes we've tried to explore in this 209 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:42,756 Speaker 1: series is that mistakes have roots. They aren't random events. 210 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:46,156 Speaker 1: They come from somewhere. They arise out of a context, 211 00:12:46,516 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: but the context often isn't obvious, not to those around 212 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 1: the mistake maker, and often not even to the mistake 213 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:58,156 Speaker 1: maker themselves. In Gotty's case, the context was a telephone 214 00:12:58,156 --> 00:13:01,516 Speaker 1: call had been on just before the reporter called. It 215 00:13:01,636 --> 00:13:04,956 Speaker 1: was with a prominent music industry executive God. He asked 216 00:13:04,996 --> 00:13:07,436 Speaker 1: that the man's name not be used, so we're gonna 217 00:13:07,436 --> 00:13:09,916 Speaker 1: bleep out every mention of his name. All you need 218 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 1: to know is that the executive is white, and God 219 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:16,116 Speaker 1: he was black. The two of them had an argument. 220 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:18,676 Speaker 1: One of God's artists had played a part in a 221 00:13:18,756 --> 00:13:21,316 Speaker 1: hit song and was in the music video, but had 222 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:23,796 Speaker 1: been left out of the radio version, and God he 223 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:24,836 Speaker 1: was unhappy about it. 224 00:13:25,916 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 3: So I was like, yo, you kill him my artists. 225 00:13:30,556 --> 00:13:33,796 Speaker 3: You got him on the video, but on radio he's 226 00:13:33,836 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 3: not there. It's and then like mixed signals, why are 227 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:37,636 Speaker 3: you hurting me? 228 00:13:38,516 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 1: Their argument got heated. The executive said it wasn't his fault, 229 00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:46,156 Speaker 1: the decision was someone else's at his label, a black man. 230 00:13:46,836 --> 00:13:50,996 Speaker 3: He was like I told that fat nigga not to 231 00:13:51,356 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 3: not to put this out. 232 00:13:53,876 --> 00:13:56,636 Speaker 2: But when he said the N word, Oh, that's when 233 00:13:56,876 --> 00:13:57,756 Speaker 2: I weren't crazy. 234 00:13:58,196 --> 00:13:58,476 Speaker 8: Wow. 235 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 9: I said, what the fuck you say? I said, you 236 00:14:01,996 --> 00:14:06,636 Speaker 9: just call Cory Roon and nigga. I said, when when 237 00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:10,036 Speaker 9: this nigga see you, I'm gonna fuck you up. I said, 238 00:14:10,036 --> 00:14:10,676 Speaker 9: how about that? 239 00:14:11,276 --> 00:14:14,316 Speaker 2: And he was like irving it and we arguing, Yeah, 240 00:14:14,316 --> 00:14:16,716 Speaker 2: but he said he used the N word on some 241 00:14:16,796 --> 00:14:19,356 Speaker 2: racist shit. He said, I told that fat nigga not 242 00:14:19,476 --> 00:14:21,236 Speaker 2: to put the record out or put him on it. 243 00:14:23,196 --> 00:14:26,796 Speaker 3: Yeah, but when he said nigga, I went, that's that's 244 00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:29,476 Speaker 3: that's the anger. 245 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:30,236 Speaker 2: Yep. 246 00:14:31,596 --> 00:14:36,516 Speaker 3: I'm not a volatile person. I'm not a pop off. 247 00:14:36,316 --> 00:14:39,916 Speaker 3: I would describe myself as a cool guy, level headed. 248 00:14:40,716 --> 00:14:46,596 Speaker 3: But it's something about when a white person like uses 249 00:14:46,636 --> 00:14:47,156 Speaker 3: the word. 250 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:52,876 Speaker 2: Nigga to me, m Oh, I'm ready to kill because 251 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:53,356 Speaker 2: it's like. 252 00:14:55,116 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 3: You start thinking of all of the fucked up shit 253 00:14:57,556 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 3: that black people have been through when you got the 254 00:14:59,596 --> 00:15:02,356 Speaker 3: audacity to say nigga in front of me. 255 00:15:03,516 --> 00:15:05,596 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm gonna show you a nigga. Now you know 256 00:15:05,636 --> 00:15:07,956 Speaker 2: what I'm saying. Like I used to always say, like 257 00:15:08,556 --> 00:15:09,636 Speaker 2: people would that ask me. 258 00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:13,356 Speaker 3: How would you be able how how would you think 259 00:15:13,396 --> 00:15:19,276 Speaker 3: you would be able to operate in those times of racism? 260 00:15:19,436 --> 00:15:23,636 Speaker 2: And I always answer, I would die. 261 00:15:22,796 --> 00:15:26,436 Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, because I couldn't take the 262 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:31,076 Speaker 3: racism that would have been bestowed upon me. I would 263 00:15:31,076 --> 00:15:33,556 Speaker 3: have killed me a couple of white people and they 264 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:36,036 Speaker 3: would have hung me and killed me, and my life 265 00:15:36,076 --> 00:15:36,676 Speaker 3: would be over. 266 00:15:37,596 --> 00:15:38,596 Speaker 2: I couldn't take. 267 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 3: Them doing something to my mother or you know, hanging 268 00:15:42,116 --> 00:15:43,556 Speaker 3: my father and I'm living life. 269 00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 2: Nah, you're gonna have to kill me too. So these 270 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:50,316 Speaker 2: are the thoughts that's in my mind. 271 00:15:50,796 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 10: Yeah, have you experienced that before where you had white 272 00:15:53,956 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 10: people say things? 273 00:15:54,676 --> 00:15:54,956 Speaker 8: Would you? 274 00:15:55,276 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 2: A lot of my white friends to say, Yo, that's 275 00:15:57,596 --> 00:15:59,356 Speaker 2: my nigga. But I'm not mad at that. 276 00:16:00,436 --> 00:16:04,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, use it when they say that's my nigga. 277 00:16:04,516 --> 00:16:06,916 Speaker 2: It's in I gg A. 278 00:16:07,796 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 3: He said, Yo, I told that fat nigga, that's n 279 00:16:11,316 --> 00:16:14,196 Speaker 3: I G g e R. It's a big, big difference, 280 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:18,116 Speaker 3: Like I couldn't I couldn't believe that he just used 281 00:16:18,116 --> 00:16:19,876 Speaker 3: the N word to me. 282 00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:25,516 Speaker 2: That's what made me so volatile, And it was so weird. 283 00:16:25,596 --> 00:16:27,356 Speaker 3: It was like as soon as I hung up with 284 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:31,436 Speaker 3: the phone, rang with l It wasn't like a five 285 00:16:31,516 --> 00:16:33,876 Speaker 3: minute It wasn't even like a five minute. 286 00:16:33,836 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 2: Cool off period. 287 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:41,756 Speaker 3: No, hung up, man, Yo, this is that old magazine. Dude, 288 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:47,116 Speaker 3: what the fuck y'all want? I'd like saying hello a 289 00:16:47,116 --> 00:16:50,156 Speaker 3: little different, can I ask? 290 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:52,876 Speaker 8: So, what do you think it was that made you? 291 00:16:52,876 --> 00:16:54,916 Speaker 8: You think you were just gonna lash out at anybody 292 00:16:54,916 --> 00:16:56,196 Speaker 8: who showed up in that moment? 293 00:16:57,436 --> 00:17:01,956 Speaker 3: Uh yeah, within that five minutes, Yeah, they was gonna. 294 00:17:01,676 --> 00:17:04,516 Speaker 2: Get the exact thing vibe, what the fuck you want? 295 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:08,436 Speaker 8: Yeah, it just so happened. 296 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 2: It was magaz Be, not one of my boys. 297 00:17:12,796 --> 00:17:16,996 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I said what the fuck you want? And 298 00:17:16,996 --> 00:17:19,596 Speaker 3: he was like, oh, oh, I see you. 299 00:17:20,476 --> 00:17:24,396 Speaker 2: Like as soon as he heard that response, he immediately 300 00:17:24,396 --> 00:17:26,796 Speaker 2: cut to the chase. He said, oh, oh, I'll just 301 00:17:26,836 --> 00:17:32,276 Speaker 2: get right to it. Uh you know, Jlo said. 302 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 3: That the records, I'm really made it funny and not 303 00:17:35,836 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 3: about puff daddy ex boyfriend, and I was like, what 304 00:17:43,356 --> 00:17:44,436 Speaker 3: that bitch is lying? 305 00:17:47,316 --> 00:17:51,156 Speaker 1: This was thereve Gotti's mistake. It changed his life. There 306 00:17:51,196 --> 00:17:53,396 Speaker 1: was a version of the next twenty years where he 307 00:17:53,396 --> 00:17:55,356 Speaker 1: could have been a creative partner with one of the 308 00:17:55,356 --> 00:17:59,836 Speaker 1: biggest stars in the world. He had ideas from movies collaborations. 309 00:18:00,196 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 1: Jaelo was at once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why 310 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:07,596 Speaker 1: this was a mistake. It had consequences. But there was 311 00:18:07,636 --> 00:18:10,596 Speaker 1: a point in Gody's interview with Steiner and Linton that 312 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 1: I couldn't get out of my mind. 313 00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:17,276 Speaker 2: Listen, how quickly did you realize that you'd made a mistake. 314 00:18:19,396 --> 00:18:20,596 Speaker 2: I didn't realize quickly. 315 00:18:22,796 --> 00:18:24,716 Speaker 3: I was so angry and mad when I got off 316 00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 3: the phone with that magazine. I thought nothing of it. 317 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:32,596 Speaker 3: It hit me when they sent me like the transcripts 318 00:18:32,636 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 3: of what they was gonna plant. 319 00:18:36,516 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 2: How long after that was that? Uh, couple a week 320 00:18:41,036 --> 00:18:44,196 Speaker 2: or so? I would say, all right, And when you 321 00:18:44,676 --> 00:18:45,876 Speaker 2: did you realize it right away? 322 00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:47,196 Speaker 3: Yeah? 323 00:18:47,196 --> 00:18:50,596 Speaker 2: I was like, don't print that. They was like it's 324 00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 2: too but they was like it's too late. Yeah, they 325 00:18:54,356 --> 00:18:54,836 Speaker 2: loved it. 326 00:18:55,076 --> 00:18:58,756 Speaker 3: They loved it, and they said it was too late. 327 00:18:59,556 --> 00:19:01,436 Speaker 3: And I was trying to get them not to print it, 328 00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:06,676 Speaker 3: but they wasn't. They like, hey, buddy, you said it. Yeah, 329 00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 3: did you get me try to did you get me 330 00:19:08,676 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 3: help to try? I get them not to do it? 331 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:10,916 Speaker 9: Or and you just let it go? 332 00:19:12,796 --> 00:19:13,276 Speaker 5: Let it go. 333 00:19:14,876 --> 00:19:17,796 Speaker 2: I gave it myf look after my fitt I just 334 00:19:17,876 --> 00:19:18,316 Speaker 2: let it go. 335 00:19:19,476 --> 00:19:22,236 Speaker 1: He realized he'd made a mistake, that in his anger 336 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:24,836 Speaker 1: at one person, he had said something he didn't mean 337 00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:27,796 Speaker 1: to another, and when he tried to prevent his mistake 338 00:19:27,836 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 1: from having consequences, from turning into a serious mistake, he 339 00:19:31,836 --> 00:19:35,156 Speaker 1: was told, hey, buddy, you said it. It's too late. 340 00:19:36,596 --> 00:19:39,916 Speaker 1: After Linton and Steiner's book came out, I interviewed them 341 00:19:39,956 --> 00:19:42,716 Speaker 1: on stage at the ninety second Street Why in New York, 342 00:19:43,156 --> 00:19:47,276 Speaker 1: and I brought up their chapter on Gaudy. So, who's 343 00:19:47,276 --> 00:19:50,716 Speaker 1: the villain of the story. Not every story has to 344 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:52,876 Speaker 1: have a villain, No, but tell me who the villain 345 00:19:52,876 --> 00:19:53,396 Speaker 1: of the stories? 346 00:19:54,836 --> 00:19:57,116 Speaker 10: So don't Michael, don't fall for this like this is okay, 347 00:19:57,276 --> 00:19:58,836 Speaker 10: this look at this is why he's so good. 348 00:19:59,076 --> 00:20:00,316 Speaker 8: But don't fall for his trap. 349 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:02,196 Speaker 2: Like okay, you can say not everyone. 350 00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:04,236 Speaker 8: I got to keep the conversation going. I would argue, 351 00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:07,356 Speaker 8: this was the executive who used the N word. 352 00:20:07,356 --> 00:20:08,636 Speaker 1: Josh, here's a villain of the story. 353 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:11,516 Speaker 10: Here's what I think that guy acted terribly. There is 354 00:20:11,516 --> 00:20:14,756 Speaker 10: no villain in the story. And I think an important 355 00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:19,156 Speaker 10: piece of what we tried to describe is that there 356 00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:22,516 Speaker 10: isn't always a villain. There isn't always some outside danger. 357 00:20:23,116 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 10: There isn't always some consequence that has been derived from 358 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:29,876 Speaker 10: a villain. That these things are deep rooted in ourselves 359 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:33,476 Speaker 10: and we're not villainous, and so that aspect of our 360 00:20:33,516 --> 00:20:36,996 Speaker 10: personality doesn't make us bad. This isn't a morality test. 361 00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:40,356 Speaker 10: This is an opportunity to explore oneself and come to 362 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 10: terms and acceptance of the fact that we're flawed and 363 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,236 Speaker 10: the way to get hopefully healthier and better to talk 364 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:46,596 Speaker 10: about it. 365 00:20:46,636 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 5: Who do you think the villain? 366 00:20:47,596 --> 00:20:47,716 Speaker 4: Is? 367 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:50,516 Speaker 1: A man who has a very close relationship to the 368 00:20:50,516 --> 00:20:54,116 Speaker 1: biggest rock star in the world, a relationship that has 369 00:20:54,156 --> 00:20:58,036 Speaker 1: resulted in extraordinary commercial success, is called by a reporter 370 00:20:58,196 --> 00:21:01,236 Speaker 1: and has asked a question about that relationship, and in 371 00:21:01,276 --> 00:21:03,996 Speaker 1: the course of answering that question, the man says, Oh, 372 00:21:04,036 --> 00:21:06,796 Speaker 1: she's a liar. Who's the villain in the story? 373 00:21:07,116 --> 00:21:08,116 Speaker 2: Do you think it's erv. 374 00:21:09,796 --> 00:21:13,476 Speaker 8: Now it's the reporter, But the reporter does no, no, 375 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:13,916 Speaker 8: no no. 376 00:21:13,956 --> 00:21:18,156 Speaker 1: This is a crucial, crucial point, Michael, and I think 377 00:21:18,236 --> 00:21:24,076 Speaker 1: this is because it's about when mistakes are made and 378 00:21:24,276 --> 00:21:27,876 Speaker 1: they are as deeply rooted as you suggest they are, 379 00:21:27,916 --> 00:21:30,156 Speaker 1: they're not what's your The whole argument of the book 380 00:21:30,276 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 1: is a mistake can come out in the spur of 381 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:34,996 Speaker 1: the moment, but it's not something that's coming out of 382 00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:36,636 Speaker 1: the spur of the moment. It's something that has roots. 383 00:21:37,196 --> 00:21:39,796 Speaker 1: And what does that require of those who are observe 384 00:21:39,956 --> 00:21:43,236 Speaker 1: and are part of the process in which the mistake 385 00:21:43,316 --> 00:21:47,876 Speaker 1: is played out. It requires some degree of grace and 386 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:54,036 Speaker 1: forgiveness and understanding. So the reporter, here's some IRV God, 387 00:21:54,316 --> 00:22:00,516 Speaker 1: IRV God. He say something that is completely out of place. Right, 388 00:22:00,596 --> 00:22:03,116 Speaker 1: it makes the reason the reason that story. So that story, 389 00:22:03,276 --> 00:22:07,196 Speaker 1: what you didn't what is important detail is here is 390 00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:10,316 Speaker 1: it goes. It's all across the country. It's like it's huge. 391 00:22:10,316 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 1: That's why it blows up so much. Everyone seizes on this. 392 00:22:13,036 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 1: Her longtime collaborator called j Lo a liar. Right, if 393 00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:20,596 Speaker 1: you are the reporter in that instance and someone says 394 00:22:20,636 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 1: something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, why 395 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:26,756 Speaker 1: did you say that? And if they can't give you 396 00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:29,876 Speaker 1: a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it. 397 00:22:30,036 --> 00:22:33,916 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's not to use it. You're not, You shouldn't. 398 00:22:34,276 --> 00:22:38,156 Speaker 1: You can't make someone. The reporter turned that from a 399 00:22:38,196 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: nothing into a destruction of someone's career because they had 400 00:22:42,316 --> 00:22:46,556 Speaker 1: not the slightest concern for his well being or his reputation, 401 00:22:46,836 --> 00:22:49,876 Speaker 1: and they if they had an ounce of self understanding 402 00:22:50,036 --> 00:22:52,356 Speaker 1: or of general understanding, they would have understood that he 403 00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:55,036 Speaker 1: didn't mean to say that. They should at the very 404 00:22:55,116 --> 00:22:56,876 Speaker 1: least have said, did you mean to say that? 405 00:22:57,796 --> 00:22:57,996 Speaker 6: Right? 406 00:22:58,356 --> 00:23:03,036 Speaker 1: That's your responsibility, and the reporter failed in that fundamental 407 00:23:03,076 --> 00:23:06,476 Speaker 1: Why do people hate the press Because because in an 408 00:23:06,476 --> 00:23:08,756 Speaker 1: interview like this, where we could talk for three hours, 409 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:10,996 Speaker 1: and you say one thing out of place because you 410 00:23:10,996 --> 00:23:12,996 Speaker 1: have to be irritated about something else, and a reporter 411 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:15,916 Speaker 1: runs with that one thing that's about practice. Why is 412 00:23:15,956 --> 00:23:18,836 Speaker 1: this person getting a pass? That's terrible. I'm sorry, I'm 413 00:23:18,836 --> 00:23:23,116 Speaker 1: really upset about this. I was upset about this because 414 00:23:23,156 --> 00:23:25,956 Speaker 1: you can't do this if you're a journalist. The whole 415 00:23:25,956 --> 00:23:29,596 Speaker 1: profession works on an implied contract. Somebody grants you the 416 00:23:29,636 --> 00:23:33,116 Speaker 1: gift of their time and attention and thoughts. They make 417 00:23:33,156 --> 00:23:37,876 Speaker 1: themselves vulnerable, and in return you pledged to respect that vulnerability. 418 00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 1: You're not a stenographer. You've entered, for the duration of 419 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:47,956 Speaker 1: the interview into an intimate relationship, and intimate relationships have rules. 420 00:23:49,516 --> 00:23:52,236 Speaker 1: But then I went home after that interview at the 421 00:23:52,236 --> 00:23:55,116 Speaker 1: why after I had called the reporter a villain and 422 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:58,836 Speaker 1: a disgrace to our profession, and I realized, I don't 423 00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:01,756 Speaker 1: even know who this person is. And then I thought 424 00:24:01,756 --> 00:24:07,556 Speaker 1: to myself, Oops, now I've made a mistake. So I 425 00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:18,036 Speaker 1: decided to track the reporter down. That's after the break. 426 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:25,796 Speaker 1: What do you remember about that interview? 427 00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:31,316 Speaker 4: It's funny you're asking this something that no one's ever 428 00:24:31,356 --> 00:24:34,316 Speaker 4: asked me, because I remember that interview quite well. 429 00:24:34,436 --> 00:24:35,476 Speaker 8: For a few reasons. 430 00:24:36,196 --> 00:24:39,876 Speaker 1: This is Carter Harris. He wrote the l profile. He's 431 00:24:39,876 --> 00:24:43,036 Speaker 1: now a screenwriter teaches at NYU, and one of the 432 00:24:43,076 --> 00:24:45,916 Speaker 1: reasons this article he wrote twenty five years ago, sticks 433 00:24:45,916 --> 00:24:50,276 Speaker 1: out is the reaction a god, particularly from Jlo and 434 00:24:50,356 --> 00:24:51,836 Speaker 1: her manager Benny Medina. 435 00:24:52,476 --> 00:24:54,716 Speaker 4: I actually remember being in a car with Benny Medina 436 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:57,636 Speaker 4: in Los Angeles, and I can't remember why we were 437 00:24:57,636 --> 00:25:03,156 Speaker 4: in a car, but he was telling me how disappointed 438 00:25:03,236 --> 00:25:06,076 Speaker 4: Jalo was, and he was because it seemed like a 439 00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:06,796 Speaker 4: negative interview. 440 00:25:06,836 --> 00:25:08,956 Speaker 8: I wasn't negative at all from my perspective. 441 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:12,676 Speaker 1: At some point, his profile of Jaelo completely disappeared from 442 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:15,436 Speaker 1: the Internet, and he always wondered if Jelo and her 443 00:25:15,476 --> 00:25:18,676 Speaker 1: manager had something to do with it? Was Gody upset 444 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:22,556 Speaker 1: during the call, Yes he was, Harris remembers he seemed 445 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 1: like he was in a state. He mentioned something about 446 00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 1: having just gotten off the phone with someone. He thought 447 00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:31,556 Speaker 1: Harris was a fashion writer and god, he seemed relieved 448 00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:34,036 Speaker 1: to learn that Harris had been an editor at The Source, 449 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:36,956 Speaker 1: the magazine that was the bible of rap at the time. 450 00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:40,596 Speaker 1: They talked about Puffy Combs and I'm real, I ate 451 00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:44,156 Speaker 1: it funny, And then Gody said that bit about Jlo 452 00:25:44,356 --> 00:25:47,556 Speaker 1: not telling the truth when you heard it when you 453 00:25:47,596 --> 00:25:51,476 Speaker 1: were reviewing him and decided to use what you were using, 454 00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 1: did you did you think that you might be jeopardizing 455 00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:56,716 Speaker 1: his relationship with Jaeloh. 456 00:25:59,076 --> 00:25:59,236 Speaker 3: No. 457 00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:03,476 Speaker 4: And maybe that was naive of me, But what I 458 00:26:03,516 --> 00:26:08,396 Speaker 4: thought was in the moment was Wow, that was honest. 459 00:26:09,276 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 4: She might be a little bit irked vexed by one 460 00:26:15,756 --> 00:26:21,596 Speaker 4: or two of the quotes, but I never imagined that 461 00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:25,876 Speaker 4: it would be such a big deal for her or 462 00:26:25,916 --> 00:26:26,276 Speaker 4: for him. 463 00:26:26,476 --> 00:26:29,236 Speaker 8: I mean I thought she'd be vexed. 464 00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:32,476 Speaker 4: I mean, when you say, you know, I gave her 465 00:26:32,476 --> 00:26:35,196 Speaker 4: more hood credibility, that's going to be like, come on, dude. 466 00:26:36,836 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 4: Or when you say it was really about Diddy and 467 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:44,676 Speaker 4: basically you're you're accusing her of not being honest. You know, 468 00:26:45,516 --> 00:26:49,516 Speaker 4: yeah that I totally understand why she was vexed, And 469 00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:50,916 Speaker 4: I even at the time, I was like, oh, she 470 00:26:50,996 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 4: might be a little ticked off about this, but I 471 00:26:54,396 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 4: figured they'd air it out either publicly or privately, that 472 00:26:58,316 --> 00:27:00,516 Speaker 4: she'd be like, come on, he overstepped on this one, 473 00:27:00,516 --> 00:27:02,756 Speaker 4: and maybe he comes back and says, yeah, all right, 474 00:27:03,076 --> 00:27:04,756 Speaker 4: I was on Molly, which she was willing to say 475 00:27:04,796 --> 00:27:05,156 Speaker 4: back then. 476 00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:08,836 Speaker 1: Is it weird to hear someone say twenty five years 477 00:27:08,876 --> 00:27:13,876 Speaker 1: later the biggest mistake they made in their life was 478 00:27:13,956 --> 00:27:15,396 Speaker 1: something they said to you in an interview. 479 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 4: Absolutely, that made me feel very strange. When I heard that, 480 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:27,676 Speaker 4: I was, I was, I was. I was very surprised 481 00:27:27,716 --> 00:27:31,716 Speaker 4: and very I was a little disturbed too, because that 482 00:27:31,836 --> 00:27:33,876 Speaker 4: when I heard that then I did have feelings. Then 483 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:36,156 Speaker 4: I was like, oh shit, what did I do wrong? 484 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:36,516 Speaker 2: You know? 485 00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 8: It was like, was I responsible for this? Somehow? 486 00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:42,516 Speaker 1: Did he run the quotes by Godi and tell him 487 00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:45,476 Speaker 1: that it was too late? You said it? No, that 488 00:27:45,476 --> 00:27:47,756 Speaker 1: would have been the fact checker. That's the way things 489 00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:49,596 Speaker 1: worked in the magazine world of those years. 490 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:52,476 Speaker 4: If he had called me and said I was in 491 00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:54,596 Speaker 4: a state, can you take those quotes out? 492 00:27:55,036 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 2: Yeah? 493 00:27:55,276 --> 00:27:57,636 Speaker 4: I probably would have worked with him on that, but 494 00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,156 Speaker 4: I never got that call. Nobody ever asked me about 495 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:04,316 Speaker 4: those quotes, So, you know, what, what can I really do? 496 00:28:04,396 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 4: But yeah, I certainly felt weird about it. I mean, 497 00:28:07,996 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 4: you know, I don't take any any joy in being 498 00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:17,716 Speaker 4: a part of anyone's biggest regret. 499 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: Carter was frank and thoughtful. I liked him. He was 500 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:28,036 Speaker 1: talking about a decision he made many years ago when 501 00:28:28,036 --> 00:28:30,836 Speaker 1: he was much younger, and he said that he wouldn't 502 00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:34,676 Speaker 1: necessarily do the same thing today. I understand that you 503 00:28:34,756 --> 00:28:37,876 Speaker 1: have to make a certain number of mistakes to understand 504 00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:38,836 Speaker 1: what a mistake is. 505 00:28:40,196 --> 00:28:44,756 Speaker 4: It's really interesting because if I had been in the 506 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:48,236 Speaker 4: gym and somebody had told me this story, and I 507 00:28:48,396 --> 00:28:52,396 Speaker 4: was not the reporter and I was not Gotti, I 508 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:55,436 Speaker 4: probably would have had the exact same response. I'm pretty 509 00:28:55,476 --> 00:28:57,516 Speaker 4: sure I would have been, like what they said, what 510 00:28:58,156 --> 00:28:59,116 Speaker 4: they messed with Gotti? 511 00:28:59,716 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 8: Like and they screwed up a relationship with Jalo and Gotti? 512 00:29:02,876 --> 00:29:04,356 Speaker 8: You know, this is bullshit. 513 00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 4: This is like the media, you know, they do this, 514 00:29:06,756 --> 00:29:10,516 Speaker 4: especially l and these corporate magazine and you know all that, 515 00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 4: so I'm not surprised to hear that that was your response. 516 00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:22,436 Speaker 4: That probably would have been my response. But to the 517 00:29:22,556 --> 00:29:28,236 Speaker 4: larger point, I think we all do this in our 518 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:32,956 Speaker 4: own way, in lots of different contexts. We jump to conclusions, 519 00:29:33,316 --> 00:29:38,076 Speaker 4: mistaken conclusions, and I certainly do in my life. And 520 00:29:38,316 --> 00:29:42,076 Speaker 4: if I've learned anything it's that I have to check 521 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:45,236 Speaker 4: myself sometimes and say, wait a minute, I'm. 522 00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:47,356 Speaker 8: Human like everybody else. I'm jumping to a conclusion. 523 00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:51,076 Speaker 4: I should go look and see if there's more to 524 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 4: this story. Doesn't necessarily mean my conclusion that I wanted 525 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:56,716 Speaker 4: to jump to is wrong, could be right, could be 526 00:29:56,796 --> 00:30:01,156 Speaker 4: worse than I thought it was. But I do think 527 00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 4: that that's the thing to take from this is like, hey, everybody, 528 00:30:05,756 --> 00:30:09,556 Speaker 4: each of us can check ourselves. You know, we all 529 00:30:09,556 --> 00:30:12,236 Speaker 4: have the ability to check ourselves and say, hey, maybe 530 00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:13,556 Speaker 4: I should look into this a little bit more. 531 00:30:15,076 --> 00:30:18,596 Speaker 1: We can all check ourselves a little bit more on that, 532 00:30:19,156 --> 00:30:26,596 Speaker 1: I have to agree. Revisious History is produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence, 533 00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:30,956 Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and ben A daph Haffrey. Our editor is 534 00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:36,636 Speaker 1: Karen Shakerji. Fact checking by Angelie Mercado. Our Executive producer 535 00:30:36,676 --> 00:30:40,556 Speaker 1: is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original music 536 00:30:40,596 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 1: by Luis Quira, sound design and mastering by Marcelo diela Vera. 537 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:56,516 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Godwell, coming up on the next episode in 538 00:30:56,556 --> 00:30:57,716 Speaker 1: our Mistakes series. 539 00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 8: This is madness and yeah, and it was just jaw 540 00:31:03,356 --> 00:31:07,396 Speaker 8: on the floor. I just never experienced anything like that, 541 00:31:07,556 --> 00:31:09,956 Speaker 8: and I didn't see a coming