1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: It on the b n F podcast. So nuclear power 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: is not a new technology. Electricity generated from a nuclear 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: reactor first took place in nineteen fifty one. The world 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: went from just one gigawatt of installed capacity in nineteen 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: sixty to over three hundred by the late nineteen eighties. 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: And just like nuclear got a bit more attention following 8 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy three oil crisis, there are some parallels 9 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: with how countries are talking about nuclear today in light 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: of the volatility in the oil and natural gas markets. 11 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, countries like France and Japan started 12 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: to invest in nuclear, and today countries like Germany that 13 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: have been much more focused on decommissioning nuclear as of late, 14 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: are again discussing the potential that it has to produce 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: their reliance on oil and natural gas. So what many 16 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: of us are wondering is will baseload power make a comeback, 17 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: will it displace some of this flexible capacity that we've 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: been using as of late, and will there be a 19 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: nuclear renaissance and if there is, how might it look different? 20 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: This time? On today's show, we talk about a wide 21 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: range of things happening in the nuclear industry, from potential 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: technology breakthroughs with small nuclear power to geopolitical issues impacting 23 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: the industry, and I wanted to know will there be 24 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: enough uranium for an industry expansion should this happen? Well, 25 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: we get to that, will the nuclear industry be able 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: to ramp up quickly enough to alleviate the pressure caused 27 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: by commodities volatility? Well that too, so joining us today 28 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: is Chris Gadomski, who is the lead nuclear analyst at 29 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: b an e F. Those who want to read more 30 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: of our analysis on nuclear and access our data, you 31 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: can find it at the b NF research report Nuclear 32 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: one h Market Outlook Unprecedented Opportunity, which is available for 33 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: subscribers to download at b NF go on the Bloomberg 34 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: terminal at b NF dot com, or on our mobile app. 35 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: As a reminder, b ANF does not provide investment or 36 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: strategy advice, and we have a full disclaimer that's played 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: at the very end of the show. Additionally, if you 38 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: want to know when new switched on podcasts about the 39 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: future of energy, transport and sustainability come out, well, make 40 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to this show on whatever podcast player 41 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: you're listening to us on now and now let's speak 42 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: with Chris about nuclear power. Chris, thank you for joining 43 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: the show today. My pleasure. So we're here to talk 44 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: about nuclear You're a resident nuclear expert at B andF, 45 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: and things have been shifting more lately, I think in 46 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: terms of sentiment and discussion, it's coming up all over 47 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: again many times over. This is an established technology in 48 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: the net zero carbon space that is discussed in spurts 49 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: and starts. So why, in your opinion do you think 50 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: that nuclear is very much back at the center of 51 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: the conversation. Well, there's a variety of reasons. We'll start 52 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: with a whole net zero initiative that's going on around 53 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 1: the world where people are looking for some options to 54 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: complement the eppointment of renewable energy. And so my take 55 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: is that net zero without fission or fusion is just 56 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: the conversation that involves a lot of hot air. So 57 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: it is a very complementary technology to renewables, and I 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: think that very important pathway to achieving that zero is 59 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: to have nucular power in a variety of different technologies 60 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: replacing the fossil fuels that are now a big part 61 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: of the generation portfolio. Secondly, we were having an energy 62 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 1: crisis in Europe and natural gas supplies are questionable for 63 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: the foreseeable months, and people are looking at what types 64 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: of options that they can can look at. Germany has 65 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: been contemplating more coal, if not relying more on coal, 66 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: building more natural gas, and people are sort of asking, 67 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: why are you going ahead and sort of tapping some 68 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: very very high carbon sources of electricity when you still 69 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: have several ginger lots of capacity online in Germany that 70 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: can go head and be deployed beyond the scheduled closure 71 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: in the second half of this year. And Thirdly, there's 72 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: been a increase in the price of natural gas and 73 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: so now nuclear power is viewed to be competitive. And 74 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: the perfect example of that is the recent legislation that's 75 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: been passed in the United States in the Senate. Remains 76 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: to be passed in the House, but we expect it 77 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: to be passed in the House. Is that they're offering 78 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: tax credits for nuclear provided that there is going to 79 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: be a need for those nuclear power plants to rely 80 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: in those tax credits to go ahead and realize or 81 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: become profitable. But I don't think that's going to be 82 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: the case because the price of natural gas has gone 83 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: so I in the in many markets in the US 84 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: that those nuclear power plants will not need to have 85 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: those production credit text credits to go ahead hand become profitable. Unlestie, 86 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: there is a tremendous amount of innovation that has gone 87 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: on in the energy sector. We've seen tremendous innovation and 88 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: we rule bowls. A less decade or so, we've seen 89 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: the whole fracking revolution, and there's been very very little 90 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: nuclear innovation. Now, however, we're starting to see nuclear innovation 91 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: in the form of smaller reactors and advanced reactors that 92 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: are changing in the discussion regarding the economics and safety 93 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: and acceptability, social acceptability of this technology, as well as 94 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: some new nuclear potentially coming online, not in the near 95 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: term but at least being discussed. Is something we can 96 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: build in order to reduce dependency on natural gas. And 97 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: you had some examples in the research note that actually 98 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: you know, looked at it before getting on today that 99 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: really highlighted that when nuclear power stations are shut down, 100 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: oftentimes it's natural gas that actually fills that capacity in 101 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: the background. At least immediately, maybe not necessarily in the 102 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: long term. So do you see new things being built 103 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: given that you know some of the forecasts that we're 104 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 1: looking at or showing that gas per this could remain 105 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: high for a few years into the future. And is 106 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: that enough time for new nuclear in Europe specifically or 107 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: this is a real pain point. Do you think that 108 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: there's enough I guess political will and even just time 109 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: given how big these projects are for things to come 110 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: online order to meet that demand. Right, So, there's two 111 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: categories of nuclear technology that we can broadly define, one 112 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: being large giga watts size reactors. A perfect example would 113 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: be the Hinkley Point see reactors. There one point six 114 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: giga wats a piece that are being built presently and 115 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: a decision has just been made by the UK to 116 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: go ahead and move forward with the size well see 117 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: reactor and we'll see if that actually transpires and goes forward. 118 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: And there are discussions elsewhere in Europe, for example Poland. 119 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: Poland has a huge coal problem. They need to go 120 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 1: ahead and decarbonize if they are going to remain a 121 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: member of the EU and good standing, and they're looking 122 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: at six to nine giggle watts of large reactors, and 123 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: they're also looking at some advanced smaller reactors that are 124 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: available on the order of three hundred megawatts or less, 125 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: and so they're examining two sides of the equation. If 126 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: they go ahead and pursue the large reactors, we should 127 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: see them perhaps come online sometime I would imagine in 128 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: the middle of the thirties. If they decide to go 129 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: ahead with the smaller reactors, I think that there is 130 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: enough momentum building for certain technologies that are available in 131 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: the three hundred megawatt range that could allow them to 132 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: deliver solutions closer to But one has to remember that 133 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: nuclear power is unique, and that it's burdened with incredible 134 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: regulatory oversight and safety concerns and social worries and political opposition. 135 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: So the pathway to commercial operation of a nuclear power plan, 136 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: especially in a new market, is very, very poonged, and 137 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: it's running a gauntlet to go ahead and get those 138 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: reactors up and running. So there is promise long term, 139 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: but I would iagine that I would be a little 140 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: bit optimistic if I said that these technologies are going 141 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: to be ready as to address the mediate concerns of 142 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: the energy issues in the next two or three years, 143 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: and recently nuclear was included in the EU Green taxonomy. 144 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: Do you think that that is a sign that people 145 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: are warming to it or do you think it will 146 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: give any bolster to the industry or is it maybe 147 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: that's relevant. Of course, we're very pleased to see nuclear 148 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: recognized for its carbon free attributes, and I think it's 149 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: a very positive development. It would certainly be much worse 150 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: if it did not receive that categorization. But when you 151 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: think about building a nuclear power plant, there's there's two 152 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: separate components. There is a policy initiative which allout calls 153 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: pushing of the technology through policy so that it sets 154 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: the stage for for acceptance. Then the other side of 155 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: the equation is of the market pull the market drive 156 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: to go ahead and actually build nuclear power plants. And 157 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: you need both. You need a market setting the stage 158 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: through policy, and you also need recognition by utilities large 159 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: industrials to say we need this type of carbon free 160 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: technology to execute appropriately. Are net zero strategies or carbon 161 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: free strategies, And so it's a push and a pull. 162 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: You can push a string, but it's much more effective 163 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: if you pull a string. And therefore we're looking at 164 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: market demand, market pull from the nations and utilities in 165 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: Europe and around the world. I recognize how important it 166 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: is to sort of balance their deployment of renewables complementary 167 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: with advanced nuclear technologies. Now you mentioned new projects and 168 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: namely and let's let's start with Poland, which does have 169 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: a lot of coal fired power stations and this could 170 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: really help them decarbonize their grit But of those projects, 171 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: there are a number of contracts in place with the 172 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: company Rosatum, which is Russian based, and with current sanctions 173 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: are there many other companies and I guess which companies 174 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: are those that are kind of pullis to potentially take 175 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: over those sorts of contracts if they can't go ahead 176 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: with their existing manufacturer. So ross Atom is the leading 177 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: export of nuclear technology in the world. They have somewhat 178 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: like thirty five projects reactors underdevelopment in their pipeline right now, 179 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: in excess of approximately a hundred thirty billion dollars worth 180 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: of orders. We've seen the first defection as a result 181 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: of the war in the Ukraine and that has been Finland. 182 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: Finland was on schedule to go ahead and start construction 183 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: of a Russian reactor in Hai Kibi and it has 184 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,239 Speaker 1: decided not to go forward. We've also seen some turmoil 185 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: and one of Russia's big markets, which is Turkey. Turkey's 186 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: building four reactors over there, and there's been some maneuvering 187 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: going for where there where. Russia has changed one of 188 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: its contractors from a Turkish subsidiary to a holy On 189 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: Russian subsidiary, and that raises a lot of questions regarding 190 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: the progress of that construction built. They are supposed to 191 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: have the first reactor operating next year, in three in 192 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: recognition of the hundredth anniversary of the turkiship I'll look there. 193 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: And finally, there is some activity going on in Egypt. 194 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: Egypt just announced in the last two or three weeks 195 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: that they have started construction on their reactor. That reactor 196 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: has been under construction, under development, or rather underdevelopment for 197 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: several years, so now finally, allegedly first nuclear concrete has 198 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: been poured, which signifies the start of the technology. But 199 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: the question then remains who could fill some of the 200 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: gaps if there are further questions about some of the 201 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: other markets. Among the thirty five reactors that may or 202 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: may not go forward, Russia has a good hold on 203 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: the nuclear market, international market. In India, they have built 204 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: two reactors and they're building two more and planning two 205 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: more after that, and so the a p R are 206 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: also being considered by the Indian government to go ahead 207 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: and build those. But one has to ask the question 208 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: is that the EPR reactors, along with the Westinghouse AP 209 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: one thousand reactors, are the most expensive reactors in the world, 210 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: and why would a country like Poland or a country 211 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: like India decide to go ahead and build these most 212 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: expensive nuclear technologies when there are other options that are 213 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: perhaps less expensive, less risky that they may want to consider. 214 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: The Koreans offer a success story and that they built 215 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: four nuclear power plants in the United Arab Emirates very successfully. 216 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: They're operating several of them, and their success story and 217 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: perhaps they have demonstrated the ability of Korean companies who 218 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: operate in a hostile environmentally hostile environments, very hot that desert, 219 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: very very strenuous working conditions, but to deliver and build 220 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: on time and more or less on budget. That has 221 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: not been the case with some of the Western vendors 222 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: in France, Finland and the United States and now apparently 223 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: also in the UK. Where that project to Hinkley See 224 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: is running to some cost overruns. Part of it is 225 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: to blame for COVID, but it's also that we've lost 226 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: the large components of the workforce, many of whom have retired, 227 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: and so we don't have the workforce that can go 228 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: ahead and build out some of these technologies now for 229 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: a very short break stay with us. So you mentioned 230 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: different countries, and I guess they would be then state 231 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: owned companies that are involved in this, or they largely 232 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: private companies that are filling I guess the other seventy 233 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: percent of new build. Well, you have China, India, and 234 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: Korea leading the charge to new nuclear construction the world 235 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: right now, with perhaps just close to or more than 236 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: of the new reactors being built in the world. So 237 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: there's a large participation of the state ownership in all 238 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: those markets over there, and so I think it's probably 239 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: a very very necessary component for building these large react 240 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: there's around the world. That's not the case necessarily with 241 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: the small reactors that are being developed and being commercialized 242 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: by General Electric, Tachi, by Rose Royce, by Whole Tech, 243 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: by New Scale, by terror Power, which is owned by 244 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: Bill Gates. So there's a lot of other private sector 245 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: ventures that are offering smaller technology, less expensive technology in 246 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: that the cost couple of billion as opposed to tens 247 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: of billions, and perhaps provides an easier pathway to commercialization 248 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: than some of the large reactors. Well, so let's talk 249 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: about that. So you mentioned that small is potentially less expensive. 250 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the project for a small project in 251 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: theory would be less expensive than for a big project, 252 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: but the price per gig wad hour is it also lower? 253 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: And is it competitive with other technologies like coal or 254 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: dare I say, wind and solar? You know, what are 255 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: some of the economic benefits and how much cheaper is 256 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: small nuclear compared to some of these larger infrastructure projects. 257 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: We have tried to do some analysis on this, and 258 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: we always run onto the same problem is that we 259 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: don't have a hard case of a small module reactor 260 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: or an advanced you can react to having the built 261 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: and having very very good costs data on the construction 262 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: of those things. So a lot of what the industry 263 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: relies on is estimates from the manufacturers and vendors saying 264 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: this is what the technology is going to cost. So 265 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: we are a little bit wary of using them and 266 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: projecting how expensive they're going to be. But the general 267 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: electric Tachi reactors are going to be competitive, we believe 268 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: with the existing technologies, and it remains to be seen 269 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: how effective they'll will be in actually building and constructing 270 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: and delivering these technologies, which are very promising. Development for 271 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: that technology is that you have several utilities in Canada 272 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: opting for that technology, and you have Poland interested in 273 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: that technology, and other countries in Eastern Europe interested in 274 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: that technology. And that suggests that you're building up a 275 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: supply chain and the demand for that technology where that 276 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: you will be able to reach enter a kind costs 277 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: as opposed to first of a kind cost sooner than later. 278 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: And so that can's promised that maybe not the first 279 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: one will be competitive, but certainly once they're after should 280 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: be certainly competitor, but closely competitive to some of the 281 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: existing technologies. Otherwise it's not a market for them to pursue. 282 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: Do we have an idea for how long that they 283 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: will take to come online. So there's a lot of 284 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: talk about first reactors coming in a line on before 285 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: the turn of the decade. Those are very very optimistic 286 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: in my personal opinion, but that's the goals have been 287 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: set by the US government and the Canadian government to 288 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: go ahead and reach that eight time frame to go 289 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: ahead and deliver the first commercial reactors. I think that's optimistic, 290 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: but I think shortly thereafter we should be able to 291 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: have those reactors. Now. Resumably, all the safety concerns and 292 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: the policy you know, hoops that you mentioned that one 293 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: must jump through in order to make sure to get 294 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: these on the grid probably are not going to be 295 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: reduced for the small to large. Is that a fair assumption, 296 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: because you're still going to have these extended timelines for 297 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: the policy arm of things to move through in order 298 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: to be comfortable with all the safety checks on a project, 299 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: regardless of size. You know, we were operating in a 300 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: post Fukushima environment for the last ten eleven years, and 301 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: the regulatory bodies, the industry society has been very, very 302 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: wary of new nuclear construction, existing operation of new nuclear construction, 303 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: and we've seen several reactors closed, not necessarily for economic reasons, 304 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: but also for political reasons and also perhaps for social 305 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: concerns and economics as well. So the nuclear industry needs 306 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: to be on to the challenge that they need to 307 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: go build advanced reactors that society is comfortable with with 308 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: their safety and economic performance, and that they are an 309 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: appropriate complement to replace the natural gas and fosil other 310 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: fossil fuel technologies that society wants to depart in the 311 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: context of a net zero aspirations and goals. So tell 312 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: me a bit. You mentioned reactors in North America, they're 313 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,479 Speaker 1: back being discussed and potentially brought online before and then 314 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: recently there's been some big movement in the US, in 315 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: particular the Inflation Reduction Act. Can you just quickly outline 316 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: where nuclear falls in there, and you know what that 317 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: might mean for this industry. The Inflation Reduction Act offers 318 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: a production tax credit for the nuclear power plants that 319 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: kicks in if the market rates for electricity are very 320 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: very low. We are seeing as a result of very 321 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: high natural gas prices that the market rates should be 322 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: significantly higher than when the ark a text of that bill, 323 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, figured out that this is the level where 324 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: support will kick in. So I think that those a 325 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: lot of the nuclear reactors will now operate in the 326 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: black because of the higher naturally as prices which they're competing. 327 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: And so there's some hypothesis that there's going to be 328 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: very very little production tax credit available to the nuclear 329 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: power industry because they're now operating against competition which has 330 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: much higher rates than they have historically in the past. 331 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: In the longer term, and and you know, you're welcome 332 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: to pick whatever year you think he's appropriate, but in 333 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: the medium to longer term, you know what percentage of 334 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: overall energy do you think nuclear really will end up occupying, 335 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: because we still do when thinking about decarbonizing the grid, 336 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: thinking about even at low prices for solar and wind capacity, 337 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: you still have to create backup options, be that gas, 338 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: be that battery storage, and then maybe nuclear, maybe be 339 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: slow energy in there could provide some buffer for other 340 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: clean technologies. Do you see kind of higher or low 341 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: in terms of where you think nuclear might go? I 342 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: think I get into the International Atomic Energy Agency provides 343 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: low points high points, and there's a huge spread over 344 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: there between the low point and high point of the 345 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: future of nuclear, which I don't think is is very 346 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: very helpful for utility planners to go ahead and understand 347 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: how nuclear may fit into their particular generation portfolio. There 348 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: is a question I asked one time the chairman of 349 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: the board of a major US utility which was a 350 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: big coal burner, and I asked them what premium does. 351 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: Is the utility willing to pay to diversify their generation portfolio. 352 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: At the time, natural gas build out was all the rage, 353 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: and you continue to build out natural gas, but then 354 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: at one point you need to sort of say we're 355 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: overweighted with natural gas and we need to consider another 356 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: type of technology just to bounce it. And in fact, 357 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: if you continue to hold out all the natural gas 358 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: because it was the cheapest option ten years ago or 359 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: eight years ago, now you're in a troublesome situation because 360 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: the price of natural gas has has dramatically increased. So 361 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: there is going to be a place for lots of renewables, 362 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: some fossil fuel, and some nuclear technology, whether it's fishing 363 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: or fusion, to go ahead and bounce out of utilities portfolio. 364 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: And so I think that there is a place for 365 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: nutritive play distinct role as a complement to renewables and 366 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: efforts for utilities states countries to decarbonize their electric power sector. 367 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: Just recently, we've had a very very promising development and 368 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: that one of the u S advanced reactor companies has 369 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: signed an agreement with Dow Chemical to go ahead and 370 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 1: provide their technology to decarbonize some of the processes that 371 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: that Dow Chemical has, for which Dow Chemical has a 372 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: very high carbon footprint. So now we're besides the utilities, 373 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: were also seeing industrial companies saying, hey, listen, we need 374 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: to decarbonize it, and we would like to serve embrace 375 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: nuclear technology, advanced nucle technology, and we see this as 376 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: a pathway to help us reduce our carbon footmen going forward. 377 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: So it's not only utilities where there's a market, but 378 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: these smaller, safer nuclear power plants offer another opportunity for 379 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: industrial scale decarbonization as well, which is a very very 380 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: positive and interesting development that's just happened in the last 381 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: few days. Okay, so you're saying, whether it be nuclear 382 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: fission infusion, what do you mean by that? All the 383 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants that operate today are fission reactors where 384 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: they're splitting heavy metals. Okay, And there is in recent 385 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: years increased interest in developing fusion technology, which is joining 386 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,479 Speaker 1: fusing together very light elements and reneleases four times as 387 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: much energy as the fission process, and it has a 388 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: lot of other advantages. You don't have the legacy spect 389 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: fuel that you don't have meltdown, and so there's a 390 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: lot of interest in that technology. And we've seen investment 391 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: in private fusion companies in twenty nineteen and twenty hover 392 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: around three million dollars each year. In twenty one we 393 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: saw that jump to two and a half billion dollars. 394 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: And so we have philanthropists, sovereign wealth funds, oil companies, 395 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: of rody industrial companies looking at placing a bet on 396 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: fusion technology because they think that it will have a 397 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: role in power generation portfolios in the future as well. 398 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: Just in the last two weeks or so, we've had 399 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: about seven hundred fifty million dollars committed to two different 400 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: fusion companies, private fusing companies in the UK and in 401 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: the US, and we anticipate this year at least a 402 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: billion dollars of investment oft of the high of last year. 403 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: But I may be very very conservative because there's a 404 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: lot of momentum in fusion technology which could be a 405 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: complement as well to the deployment of renewables around the world. So, Chris, 406 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: how long have you been covering nuclear. I've covered nuclear 407 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: longer than I like to admit probably twenty years have 408 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: been revolved in producing reports and research in nuclear markets. 409 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: So in all that time, have you seen this level 410 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: of interest in the fusion space. No. I think fusion 411 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: the last few years has seen the tremendous uptick in 412 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: in in fusion space. And one of the advantages of 413 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: fusion spaces that you can go onto and to visit 414 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: several different fusion companies and see the reactors, see the prototypes, 415 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: climb on them. And we have a tremendous amount of 416 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: support from high net worth individuals. Companies that Goldman Sachs, Google, 417 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: the Sovereign Well from Singapore, several other companies are all 418 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: developing or pursuing an interest in fusion for for the future. 419 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: And it's promising because there are several different technological approaches 420 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: to fusion. It's just not one type of tocomac energy. 421 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: There's a lot of variety of approaches, different approaches, different 422 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: technologies that can go ahead and deliver that, which is 423 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: the sign of a very very healthy industry that there's 424 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: lots of approaches and lots of capital starting to flow 425 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: in and we anticipate that we'll see a steady stream 426 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: and fusion coming forward. Fusion is something that also is 427 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 1: in a timeframe of some companies suggesting that they'll have 428 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: something to show in the second half of this decade. 429 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: But as far as my thinking is, it's probably before 430 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: we'll see a viable commercial fusion reactor. I hope I'm wrong. 431 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: I'm hoping it's easier. But it's a complex technology and 432 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of mildstones yet to be accomplished and realized. 433 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: But momentum is there, the messer interests there, and it's 434 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: something that represents some different advantages than fishing, for example, 435 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 1: So it's something that's worthwhile pursuing and also has a 436 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: role to play in the future. And with all of 437 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: this financing behind it, is it ultimately a race towards 438 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: a breakthrough technology that will end up being the dominant 439 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: technology or do you think it will continue to be 440 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: a varied space. In terms of how fusion is a 441 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: French from a tex standpoint, there's three different major avenues 442 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: for development of fusion technology. There's the Eater facility, which 443 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: I visited last week in the south of France, which 444 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: has thirty two or thirty three countries involved in in 445 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: collaboration to develop this technology, and it's a big, massive 446 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: industrial project in the thirty billion dollar range, but it's 447 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: a research facility developing that. But this is a sort 448 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: of international commitment to go ahead and develop this technology. 449 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: Had to share the expertise with everyone who's involved. The 450 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: second avenue is there's a lot of national programs that 451 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: are being developed. The Koreans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the UK, 452 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: the US all have national programs that are developing their 453 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: specifically funded to go ahead and prove out fusion technology 454 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: and learn from the lessons that will be deployed taken 455 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: away from the eater facility. And the third avenue and 456 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: when that's probably most interesting is the private sector development 457 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: and entrepreneurs, sovereign wealth funds, philanthropists, billionaires are all looking 458 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: and spending money to commercialize these technologies, and the focus 459 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: there is not so much on research, but the focus 460 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 1: is on a commercial product with which to generate electricity. 461 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: So the combination of the three different avenues to commercialization 462 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: of fusion technologies, where I think, is very very exciting 463 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: and hopefully we'll have some very pleasant results in the 464 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: years ahead to report. Before I pivot to another topic, 465 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: is there anything else you wanted to say on fusion, 466 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: it's very, very challenging. But a lot of people describe 467 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: it as the holy Grail of energy production, and I'm 468 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: not saying that that's the case, but it is a 469 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: very interesting technology, a very very challenging one, and I 470 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: hope that all the companies and all the investors will 471 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: be main focused so that they can deliver a commercially 472 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: viable projects sooner than later. Now for a very short break, 473 00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: stay with us, So let's talk a little bit about uranium. 474 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: Stay on some of the costs here. There's been a 475 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: fair amount of volatility in uranium, and we as a 476 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: business do look at commodity prices as they really underpinned 477 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: a lot of the industries that we're talking about in 478 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: other respects. So it's you know, intrinsically linked what has 479 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: been going on with uranium recently. So if you go 480 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: back to the two thousand five or so, uranium was 481 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: trading close to a hundred fifty dollars a pound. That 482 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: was following the passage of the Energy Policy Act of 483 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: two thousan five in the US, which provided some incentives 484 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: for nuclear power, and at the time there was a 485 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: lot of financial speculation interest in the market and drove 486 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: up the price significantly higher. And then came along came Fukushima, 487 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: and Fukushima sort of tanked the market because everybody is 488 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: now worried that nuclear power is going to be out 489 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: as a result of this, this few terrible accident over there. 490 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: In the meantime, though, before Fukushima happened and after the 491 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: high price in two and five period, there was a 492 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of increase in uranium and many many companies 493 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: started additional mining efforts, started new mines, increased production of mines. 494 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: And so what happened in two thousand eleven when the 495 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: demand for uranium slowed significantly in the prospect of new 496 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: bill tempered somewhat, you had a lot of production that 497 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: was coming online. So the rannium market was oversupplied. Since 498 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven. Many of the Japanese utilities, for example, 499 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: were on a taker pay contracts, so they had contracted 500 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: from long term uranium purchases, but they weren't operating the 501 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants. You went from fifty four nuclear power 502 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: plants operating in Japan on March one, two thousand and 503 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: eleven two none of them operating a year later, and 504 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: so they still had to buy and commit to the 505 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: purchasing that uranium. So you had an oversupply campac in 506 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: the marketplace which has been sort of now winded down, 507 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: and it drove down the price of uranium to less 508 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: than thirty dollars at the beginning of one. In the 509 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: middle of one, we saw some financial speculation interest come 510 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: into the marketplace and made some long term purchases of 511 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: uranium for inspeculative basis, and that drove the price up 512 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: to nearly fifty bucks in them in the middle of 513 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 1: October of last year. It traded back and forth between 514 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: fifty and forty bucks for the next several months, and 515 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: then with the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, uranium spiked 516 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: and went up to nearly over sixty dollars. And that 517 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: was a recognition that perhaps because of all the energy 518 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: sanctions that were being talked about, there was some anticipation 519 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: among financial investors that, you know, uranium would be a 520 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: good commodity to hold onto for the future because we 521 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: anticipate that this war could drive a lot of interest 522 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: in purchasing, deployment of more nuclear reactors and consumption of uranium. 523 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: That fell fifth the middle of April till below fifty 524 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: dollars and it's traded in arrange in the high fordis 525 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: ever since then at I saw earlier today, And so 526 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: there is a increase doubling of the price uranium over 527 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: the last year, but it's not as high as it 528 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: was a couple of months ago. New minds are coming online. 529 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: There is going to be more demand for uranium coming forward. 530 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: But it's a very interesting market to follow, and I'm 531 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: sort of surprised that it's more or less had gone 532 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: back and forth in the high forties for a while, 533 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: but that makes sense because more uranium markets minds are 534 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: coming online and production is increasing and inventories have been reduced. 535 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: There was a significant amount of uncovered demand for uranium, 536 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: meaning that utilities did not buy the uranium that they 537 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: needed to buy prior to the war in Ukraine, and 538 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: so that provided the impetus for for higher uranium prices 539 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: and to miss them among uranium producers. That there's going 540 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: to be some hope and improve conditions for the uranium 541 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: producers and miners around the world. Quite possibly a basic question, 542 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: but how difficult is it to extract this three uranium 543 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: and essentially you know, with maintaining a supply and demand bonds. 544 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: Let's say small scale nuclear goes really well and actually 545 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: these projects end up taking off at some point in 546 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: the next couple of decades, Is it possible that we 547 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: will have enough uranium or are there very limited supplies? Now? 548 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: I don't think that there is concerned that there's not 549 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: going to be enough uranium to supply the immediate needs 550 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: of the nuclear power industry in the foreseeable future. Some 551 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: of the advanced reactive technology is much more efficient in 552 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: burning up the uranium and therefore will use uranium more efficiently, 553 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: so they'll have more electrical generation for the same amount 554 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: of uranium has started in the fuel. So I think 555 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: in the near term there is perhaps rightfully so will 556 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: be increased in the price of uranium. But electricity generated 557 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: from natural gas is dependent from the price of the 558 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: natural gas. The price of nuclear power electricity is dependent 559 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: perhaps maybe a ten to fourteen on the price of uranium. 560 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: So we can upstand una an increase in the price 561 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: of uranium without having a dramastically negative effect on the 562 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: price of We're not going to near term gonna be 563 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: running out of uranium. And secondly, one has to recognize that, 564 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: whereas the price of nuclear generated electricity so ending a 565 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: bit like the way we began. But instead of focusing 566 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: in on why everyone else is talking about nuclear what 567 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: are some of the things that stand out to you. 568 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: One of the most important things that I see right 569 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: now happening the market is really very interesting, is the 570 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: sea change in the public perception of nuclear power. You 571 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: have three stalwarth states nations in Germany, California, and Japan, 572 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: which were very much opposed to nuclear power, and we're 573 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: seeing to see that opposition to the nuclear power of 574 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: being sort of reduced or shell for the time being. 575 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: Whether or not it's a permanent or temporary situation, it's 576 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: hard to say. Germany, in the wake of Fukushima, was 577 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: committed to closing all of its nuclear power plants by 578 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 1: two In our analysis we suggested that he will continue 579 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: to go ahead and close those reactors at the end 580 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: of this year, but there's been a tremendous amount of 581 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: opposition to doing so because they are safe and we 582 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: can continue using them and they'll help reduce the burden 583 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: of the higher electricity prices on the German people by 584 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: keeping them operating for a while. If you have a 585 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: situation where those reactors are in fact allowed to operate 586 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: beyond the end of two it's a sea change in 587 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: the thinking going on in in Germany and that all 588 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: of a sudden, we need to have these reactors to 589 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: hedge against the crisis of the higher energy prices. And 590 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: a good energy policy involves not only delivering clean energy, 591 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 1: but delivering clean energy at a recental price, and nuclear 592 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: can play a very very effective role in doing so. 593 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: Situation in California is very much the same, where there 594 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: was a political decision and close the Diablo Canyon nuclear 595 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: power plants, the last two nuclear power plants in the 596 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: state of California, and it was done because the decision 597 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: was made perhaps politically, I don't think so economically, but 598 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: decision was made to close those nuclear power plants and 599 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: to go all in on renewables and other technologies. And 600 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: so now there's a lot of um question marks because 601 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: there's been policy coming from the US government suggesting that 602 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: will provide some funds for those utilities who operate nuclear 603 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: power plants who are thinking about perhaps closing them. And 604 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: that's a very significant anti nuclear state which perhaps has 605 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: going to rethink the use of nuclear power, not only 606 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: for power generation but also for desalination of water. That 607 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: plans for that nuclear plant only two reactors. Their initial 608 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: plans were for six reactors, one of which was entirely 609 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: going to be dedicated for desalination. And in Japan you 610 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: went from fifty four reactors to zero reactors to about 611 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: ten operating reactors, nine or ten operating reactors now and 612 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: they're being burdened tremendously by the high natural gas prices, 613 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: and so there is an effort to go ahead and 614 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: speed the return of several of those reactors to generating 615 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: electricity to put less pressure on the pricing of electricity 616 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: in the country in Japan. So those are three markets 617 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: which are pretty much against nuclear power, which are now 618 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: softening their their stance on that. If you go back 619 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: a year, the Indian Point nuclear power plant north of 620 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: New York was closed down, and I'll put from the 621 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: nuclear our plant is larger, being replaced by natural gas. 622 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: And we can see now that the price of natural 623 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: gas has gone through the roof, making the price of 624 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: electricity for people in the New York Metropolitanaria Horse who 625 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: are customers of content has increased significantly. And that's not 626 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: good energy policy to have such a large jump, Plus 627 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: the emissions are gone up significantly as well. Just this morning, 628 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: in the middle of a heat wave in New York, 629 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: there were announcements that there's perhaps brownouts in parts of Brooklyn. 630 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: They're going to exist today in the n plus heat 631 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: that it's going through the area. I think people are 632 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: starting to realize that nuclear has a role to play 633 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: and electrical power generation in certain markets or in many markets, 634 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: and we just see a lot of interest there. So 635 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: this for a variety of reasons, net zero aspirations, COP 636 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: twenty six war in Ukraine, high natural gas prices, mustering, 637 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: the hot summer, All of these things are are combined 638 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: timing to get people to consider that perhaps, you know, 639 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: we should not throw new europe technologies out the window 640 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: because they have a role to play. Of course, beyond 641 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: the things that we've already addressed today, and what are 642 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: some of the other things that are happening in the 643 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: industry that you just want to make sure that everyone 644 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: knows about. One of the things that the nuclear industry 645 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 1: has to respond to this unprecedented opportunity that exists in 646 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: front of it right now. The nuclear industry has fumbled 647 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: the ball on a few occasions, and there are several 648 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: examples in the US and in Europe that the construction 649 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: time to build the nuclear power plants in the US 650 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 1: approaching over ten years, and the actual start and stopping 651 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: of a to eight one thousand projects in South Carolina 652 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: a few years back. I mean, the perception of the 653 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: nuclear power industry has is that they can't build and 654 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: manage large projects effectively, and that the label that's a 655 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: placed on nuclear powers that they're uneconomic. You know, in 656 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: Europe you have projects that are under construction since two 657 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: thousand five. In Finland that reactors just come online. Still 658 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: some operating challenges there. In France, they started building that reactor, 659 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: their e p R in two thousand and seven, there's 660 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: still a year or two away from getting that operating. 661 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: And so none of these reactors have um good solve 662 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: economic performance associated with their construction. That is something that 663 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: the nuclear power industry needs to change. The cost of 664 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: generating of building nuclear power plants is much lower in 665 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: a place like China because they built six and them 666 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: at a time at one location, and they have a 667 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: train workforce and they can very effectively deliver significantly less 668 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: expensive nuclear power. That has to change in the Western 669 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: Europe and in the United States. We need to proceed 670 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 1: and build nuclear power plants and deliver them in generate 671 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: electricity without the economic nightmare labor attached to them. And 672 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: that's a very very important thing. And I think that 673 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: the new technologies represents several safety advantages. They're smaller, some 674 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: of them don't operate with pressure vessel because they're operating 675 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: on one atmosphere, and so therefore that it makes a 676 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: lot of sense for some of these reactors to to 677 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: go ahead and deliver and and displace some of the 678 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: coal technology that is that is still operating in this country. 679 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: So it's a viable pathway going forward. The nuclear industry 680 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: has to respond and rise to the occasion deliver, and 681 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: until they do so, then they'll have this very negative 682 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: connotation applied to them. And we have seen more coal 683 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: flary power stations come on as a result of the 684 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: really high natural gas prices at the moment. And do 685 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: you think that that is ultimately the real displacement opportunity 686 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: for nuclear in the space that it occupies. I think 687 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: that in the compronization of the electrical power sector in 688 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: the United States, and Europe is going to require replacing 689 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,439 Speaker 1: the baseload technology that is now currently supplied by coal 690 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: plants and natural gas plan and I think that that's 691 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: the opportunity, the sweet spot for the nuclear power industry 692 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: to address in the power generation sector. Providing industrial process 693 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: heat to industry is another sweet spot for the nuclear 694 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: power industry to go ahead and address, and we're already 695 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: seeing some developments with Dow Chemical partnering with x Energy 696 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 1: to go ahead and deliver products to allow for nuclear 697 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:30,399 Speaker 1: industrial processing to in order to decarbonize. And there's also 698 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: a lot of talk of using nuclear to produce hydrogen, 699 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: and that's something that may make some sense in certain 700 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: specific areas industrial complexes where the physical requirements of storing 701 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: and transporting hydrogen do not become prohibitively expensive. So if 702 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: you can have a nuclear power plant produce the hydrogen 703 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: and deliver it quickly to the market without extensive storage 704 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: and transport costs, it also makes a lot of opportunities 705 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,919 Speaker 1: for there. So nuclear technology is a very very technology. 706 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: There's a lot of power in the atom and splitting 707 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: the atom, fusing atoms, and so it's something that is 708 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,439 Speaker 1: it's a very technology and it has issues like many 709 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 1: other technologies has issues, and the nuclear industry has to 710 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: sort of rebrand itself to certain extent, saying that we 711 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: not only have a carbon free technology, but we have 712 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: a carbon free technology that employs a lot of people, 713 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: that is safe and can compliment the increasing deployment of renewables. So, Chris, 714 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming and getting us up 715 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: to speed on so many different things that are happening 716 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: all over the world in the nuclear space. And I 717 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: know each one of these you could probably spend an 718 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: hour show drilling down on. So thank you for taking 719 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: us through this crash course and sharing with us today 720 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 1: right well, happy to do so at any time. Today's 721 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: episode of Switched On was edited by Rex Warner of 722 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: gray Stoke Media. Bloomberg an F as a service provided 723 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This recording does 724 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: not constitute, nor should it be construed as investment advice, 725 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: investment recommendations, or recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. 726 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg an e F should not be considered as information 727 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: sufficient upon which to base an investment decision. Neither Bloomberg 728 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes any representation 729 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of the 730 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: information contained in this recording, and any liability of this 731 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 1: recording is expressly disclaimed