WEBVTT - #056 Jason Flom with Angel Cordero 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.080 America has two point two million people in prison. If 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.200 just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.039 That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.440 If the system want to take you out of society, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.800 they will do it no matter what laws they have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:25.800 they're breaking the lord. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.360 Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.519 of a crime that I did not commit, and then 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:34.559 hear my family break down behind me and not be 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.600 able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.640 crushing weight that was. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.840 A lot of times we look and we see something 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.200 happen to somebody and that's the first thing we said, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:50.720 that could never happen to me, But. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:52.600 They can. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:15.280 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Ronfuel Conviction with 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.679 Jason Flom. Today we're going to tell the story of 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.640 Angel Cordero, which is an ongoing story and it is 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.479 in some ways sadly typical of the system, and I'll 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.760 explain that. In other ways it's terrifying. 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:31.959 A bronx ban is released from prison after serving thirteen 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.520 years for a crime. He says he didn't commit. Angel 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.760 Cordero came home two years early for good behavior. Cordero 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:40.080 was found guilty of murder and sentenced to fifteen years 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.479 for the stabbing of a Bronx resident in nineteen ninety nine. 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.000 The victim was walking home when he was attacked by 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.880 a group of strangers. Officers responding to the attack arrested 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.160 five minutes the scene, including Cordero and his brother. Mounting 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.640 evidence in favor of Cordero's innocence and motions filed to 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.720 appelas case have not been successful. Cordero's brother was also 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.920 convicted for the same crime, but was really earlier, where 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:03.400 Daro insisted he will continue fighting for an exoneration. 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.799 Angel. Welcome to ronful conviction. Thank you, Jason, and with 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.520 him is his beautiful wife, Michelle. Michelle, welcome to the show. 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:13.960 Thank you so. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:19.400 Angel, your case makes no fucking sense. What's I mean, 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.160 It just doesn't make any sense. But before we get 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.360 into all of that, Yeah, and we'll get into all 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.320 that for sure, but let's go back to before any 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.040 of this insanity happened. And of course it's it's a 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.680 family tragedy because you and your brother were both convicted 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.080 of this crime along with other people. But how was 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:42.799 life treating you before everything went upside down and sideways 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:44.240 and turned into a nightmare. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.560 I had a regular teenage light, you know. I was 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:51.160 into sports, working out New York City, New York City, Bronx, 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.480 what kind of sports? My favorite basketball Bolso played BASB 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:55.360 one football as well. 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:01.040 So you're having this, you know, happyildhood pretty much right. 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:02.600 How many brothers and sisters. 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.919 Did you have? I have one brother and three sisters, 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.440 but two of my sisters off my father's side, so 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.480 I wasn't in contact with them as much. But I 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.520 lived with my brother and my sister and my mother, So. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.520 You had it's sort of a typical childhood. You were 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.880 never in trouble, right, in trouble, no prior record before 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.360 this happened. Because that's the thing, angel I get asked 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.480 a lot from people. Well, this guy got wrongfully convicted. 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.480 He probably was doing something else or there must have 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.920 been some reason. But we know that most of the 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.800 people who were wrongfully convicted had no prior record, just 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.080 like you didn't when this thing happened. Let's go back 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.960 to the night going into the morning. Well May fifteenth 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:43.040 and sixteenth nineteen ninety nine. Yes, this was a stabbing, right, 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:47.320 It's a very bloody crime. Yes, And the cops were 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:50.840 there quickly after the fact, right after the fact. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:51.040 Yes. 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:55.200 Yeah. So how did this incident unfold? 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.600 I must start around eight o'clock that night, my brother 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.520 and I was invited to a birthday party for one 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.200 of our neighbors sons. He was gonna turn one. So 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.280 we went to the party and we stood there till 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.600 like two in the morning, and then by two in 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:12.360 the morning with up the party because there was already 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.720 winding down by that time, and we went outside to 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:17.880 the corner store cause my brother wanted to get a 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.880 pack of cigarettes. And then while he's in the corner store, 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.120 I'm in the corner talking some you know, some people, 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.800 some ladies that were there. So he gets a pack 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.480 of cigarettes, he comes back towards me, and then all 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:30.520 of a sudden, we just see fight break out across 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.120 the street from where we were at, and my brother's like, 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:36.039 always go check it out, see what happened. Then I 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:40.640 just started following. As he crosses the street, I see 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.800 the cops turning the corner, just jumping out of the car. 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:45.760 It was on my mom car. I knew what a 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:47.720 cop car looked like. I'm from from the Bronx. I'm 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:51.400 from a neighborhood where if you're not paying attention your surroundings, 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.360 then you're kind of being dumb. So when they pulled out, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.720 I noticed all four officers jumping out, and then one 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.120 of the officers went towards my brother directly, for no 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.080 parent reason, grabbed him and that's when I got involved. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.160 Went through the crowd, and I was just trying to 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.440 question the officer. Why was the reason he was grabbing 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.560 on my brother. He turned around and just puts the 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.440 gun to my face. Instinctively, just put my hands down 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.279 like yo, and then he get against the wall. 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.840 Did you even know at this point that someone had 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:22.440 been stabbed? 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:24.480 I didn't know what the fuck was going on. I 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:26.240 knew there was a fight going on. Other than that, 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:27.080 I didn't know what happened. 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.560 Because you heard like yelling, screaming. 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.599 From across the street. You can see two kids fighting, right, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.160 you know, you can see a commotion happening. 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.279 But now there was a crowd, so you're just sort 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:37.040 of in the crowd. 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.719 My view is catching my brother being grab out. This 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.000 officer where his gun out. 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.640 This is your little brother, my little brother, So you're 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:46.599 doing what a big brother does. You're sort of trying 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.360 to come to his you know, hey. 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.800 I'm focusing on him now. I don't know anything else 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:52.000 but what was going on in front of me. 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:54.080 And then the next thing, you know, the cops got 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:54.840 a gun in your face. 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:56.480 Next thing, you know, the guns in my. 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:57.799 Face, and what happens next? 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.080 So I put my hands up and the next thing, 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.160 he's yelling at me to get against the wall, and 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:08.320 I'm like, for what, I'm questioning him, why just get 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:10.920 against the wall, And I'm refusing. I'm not getting against 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.680 the wall for nothing. So he just smashed me with 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.680 a gun. And next thing, you know, I feel a 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:22.520 bunch of hits happening, and I go down to put 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.080 the handcuffs on me, and one of the officers said, hey, hey, 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:31.080 look up. I look up and I'm maced. And so 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.000 the rest of the now, all I could do is 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.440 hear people around me talking and screaming, and but I 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:37.240 can't see anything. 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:42.160 Wow, this is this is heavy. I mean, you're one 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.160 minute you're just buying cigarettes and the next minute you're 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.680 in this insane situation of being beaten up by the cops, 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.440 pistol whipped, and now you're blind and. 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.120 The gun was to my face. At the time, the 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.760 officers were cowboys, were talking about the nineties where the 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.760 officer was killing just about any innocent person that was 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:00.760 in the bronx. 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.320 You knew that the cops were out of control at 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.880 that time in that neighborhood. But yet you had said, 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:09.360 I'm not getting up against the wall. You must have 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.560 known what you were heading into by sort of disobeying 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.240 in order, right, so you still believe in the system 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.280 somewhat if you said, well, if I know I'm innocent, 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:18.920 if I just stayed up for my right, so I'm. 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.040 Gonna be all right, Right, I did nothing wrong. 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.000 So now you're laying on the ground, you're bleeding, you've 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:26.640 been beaten up, you're blind, you're handcuffed. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:30.200 So I go to the hospital, and the hospital and 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.679 one of the cops started messing with me. He started 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:34.560 rough housing me that even the nurse, one of the 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.760 nurses had to get involved and she was leaving them alone, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.960 leave them alone. She came and took care of me. 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:42.720 She stished me up and everything. 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.560 Because they cracked the angels head open. They had million 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:47.080 staples in the back of his head. 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.400 Yeah, this was not like this is now of them 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.360 slapping you around. I mean they almost they I mean 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.200 nine staples in your head. That's uh. I mean even 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.720 just hearing about it now, and even though it's Jesus 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.120 almost twenty years ago, it's just sickening. I mean, like 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.760 the whole thing is really uh. Like I said, it's 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.560 terrifying and it's sickening. There's just so many things wrong 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.200 with this story already, and then it gets worse, right, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.520 then it gets worse. I mean you're probably thinking at 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:15.360 this point, what the hell else can go wrong? But 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.280 did you still feel like, Okay, well, I'm going to 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.600 get out of this. I mean all times now you're 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.400 laying in the hospital, did you know what had happened? 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:26.480 Didn't know? 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:28.800 So you have no idea, what the hell? 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:34.480 Nothing other than the cors beat me up. And then 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.800 I think I mentioned to one of them, I'm anaue 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.000 your asses after all this is said and done. And 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.000 then I guess I sparked something in them or something. 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.080 I don't know. I don't know the motive to what, 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.880 What was their motive for putting me in prison? I 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.240 forgot to mention that when I was getting beat up, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.240 Dario already had been apprehended before that. Yeah, I got 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.040 hit with the butt of a gun in the back 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.920 of his head, your brother, No, Dariel the perpetration, right, Okay, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.400 he was apprehended as the Coptenson was all for da 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.079 on me. That's when Daril got the opportunity to get 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.960 up and run. So they had him. He was on 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:15.040 the floor, apprehended. They had him and physically had him 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.960 that same moment that the crime happened. 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.280 They let the bad guy get away and they couldn't 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:20.599 admit it. 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.760 Well, that's the weird thing in this story too, right, 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:24.720 And I was doing my homework to get ready for 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.760 the episode. I'm sitting here going were they friends with 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.720 this guy? Like? Why would they have done this guy? 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:36.360 The favor of life? This one came with instructions, right, 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.959 like the Academy one on one like this is it? 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.320 You got your guy right there? I mean, so the 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.640 cops roll up on this scene minutes after it happened, right, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.960 almost record speed, and they got the perpetrator there covered 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:50.360 in blood. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:52.680 Yes, right, And. 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:54.400 This is like a dream, right, this is like you 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:56.480 could get this case done quick and get home in 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:01.520 time for dinner. So absolutely, So that's the crazy thing. 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.720 And this guy Bdario Rodriguez, Sai Barrio Rodriguez, he's no dummy. 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.640 He takes the opportunity. Once all this commotion happens and 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.040 you're getting beat up and your brother's getting beat up, 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.600 he's like, well, I'm getting the fuck out of here. Absolutely, 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.720 and he said he crawled and then he got up, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:17.200 and then he ran and he got rid of his 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:21.400 bloody clothes, right and then he was like, man, I 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.080 mean and considering. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.120 How many times he'd been in jail, he knew, he 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.679 knew what could possibly happen if he didn't run away. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:30.840 So okay, now let's go back to that for a second. 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:32.960 I'm glad you brought to that, Michelle. So, this guy 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.480 Dario is a known bad guy. It's fair to say 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:38.599 the cops knew about him from the neighborhood because he 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:39.600 was a guy he was in and out of jail 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:40.040 all the time. 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:41.760 At the time, I think he was like twenty eight 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.840 and he's been getting on arrested since the age of fourteen. 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:46.800 So it's a news record. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.920 Wow, hard to hard to process this one. A little 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.800 bit okay. So now you're in the hospital. Yes, how 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:54.800 long was the hospital for? 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:56.120 Four or five hours? 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:57.320 And then they take you to jail. 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:01.960 We left on eight o'clock that morning to the TENTI booking. Now, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:03.960 when I get into the cop car from the hospital, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.400 this is Sugan Delaney. What happened last night? He's actually 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:09.080 me what happened last night? 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:10.440 And you still don't know? 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:12.920 And I said, I don't know. He's asking me what 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.520 happened last night. So I'm on the back seat. It's me, 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:20.480 it's Delaney. I think it's Curry anyhow. So then he 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.640 in terms of mind asked me, asked me what happened 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.760 last night? And I'm like, y'all fucked me up. That's 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.559 the only thing that happened last night. I'm'a fucking sue ya. 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:34.000 I got a voiceous And he was like, man, he 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.600 seems like such a nice guy. I can't believe what 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.120 you did. And I'm like, I like, hell, I don't know. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.679 I already anew where that was going, Like, I'm from 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.800 a neighborhood where I got already told you. You your 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.920 senses and your awareness is a little more keen to things, 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:55.360 especially with bullshit. So he was like, why why you 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.760 stabbed that kid last night? And I was like, man, I'm 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.920 not even talking to you guys, no more, don't even 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:04.040 talk to me. Don't even talk to me, you know shit, yeah, 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:08.880 bugging right now. We went to forty first Precinct. That's 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.000 when I saw the other guys that was arrested. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.160 With me that night, including your brother, including my brother. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.080 And that's how I found out by Dario being there 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:22.160 that night, caught up through Pierre and Julio. They told me, 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:23.439 what the fuck are you doing here? They didn't even 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.720 know I got arrested. Then when it's on me coming in, 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.000 they asked me, what the fuck are you doing here? 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:29.760 I said, what the fuck you mean? I'm doing here 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.120 for the shit that just happened. He was like, but why, 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.120 I said, the constans fucked me up, and then they 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:37.640 arrested me and then put me in here with you. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:42.000 Guys at their original arrest questioning where the DA comes 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.440 in the very first time, all three of them, Julio, Pierre, 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.240 and Gregory all say we know the guy who did 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.800 it that same night. That was that night, it was 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.800 maybe an hour after the incident. Will take you to 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.000 where he is. We know where he is. He's colored 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:58.840 in blood, we know where he lives. 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.920 His name is that. 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.880 We will take you to him. This is all in transcripts. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.040 The first night, they just ignored it. 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.040 Right, Let's just reflect on that for a second too, 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:15.760 because with these guys, crackheads, with these guys like young kids, 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:17.760 there was no reason for the cops to think that 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.800 they would be making up a story, right, and especially 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.920 there's three of them, three of them, So there's three 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:24.160 of them all going. 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:25.920 I know where he's at. I'm not going down for this. 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:27.520 I know where he's. 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.679 At, and they never followed up on. 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:31.840 It, and then never followed up on that. They just 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:32.640 ignored it. 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:34.440 It's so weird. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:39.040 Well, when you put it together with they had him apprehended, 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.680 So then there goes three kids telling you, I know 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.360 where he's at, let's go get him. What's going on? 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.280 What happened here? What's the motive? What's the motive? That's 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.160 what the question I always ask myself, what's the motives? 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:52.840 Put me in jail? 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.760 I Mean, the only thing which still doesn't make any 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.360 sense that I could possibly think of is that they 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.480 maybe feel a little embarrassed that they had already had 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:05.840 the guy. They let him go. But why nobody's gonna 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:07.280 know that? That doesn't make any difference. 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.000 Why doesn't matter when the end of the day, he 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.400 did the right thing. Gituation. 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.720 But I'm thinking, I'm not thinking about doing the right thing. 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:15.720 There's not a lot of right things being done here 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.080 so far, right I mean, And I'm thinking about you 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.560 in this situation too. Had you called anybody by this point, 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:23.040 your parents, anybody else. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.720 Sister knew she was at the scene. She came to 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:26.160 the scene. 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.240 Someone called her, just got arrested. 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.760 So she figured out that you were at the precinct 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:32.240 and she came. 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.600 She came to the crime scene. We was laid on 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.320 the floor for a while, like they didn't just arrests 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.680 picked us up and let leave. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.280 By the way, just a visual, Hunts Point is small 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:43.200 and someone is small. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:44.760 The whole community really knows each other. 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:46.960 You could walk that neighborhood in a few minutes. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.160 It's a small person. If somebody knows your neighborhood, most 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.400 likely fifty people's gonna know your neighborhood. But there's a 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:54.120 small community. 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.160 So your sister did Tony's Angel's brother. She told Tony, 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:00.160 you know why you're here. And he's like, no, oh, 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:02.560 and she said it's murdered. There was a stabbing and 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.400 he went no, like he didn't even know why he 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.600 was there until Keisha, my sister in law. 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:17.400 Told now you're in the precinct, you get fingerprinted, booked, 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:18.120 et cetera. 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:20.840 And then what happened, Well, before I went to the precinct, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.240 they had all of us talked to the DA. The 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.040 fair printed me and all that. Then we all talked 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.640 to the guy so to the DA and I refused 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.000 to talk to the DA. I said, isn't need for 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:31.200 me to talk to the I don't. 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.520 Know, don't talk about Well, that was the right thing 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.480 to do because you had no lawyer. They read your 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.640 Maranda rights and did you wave your Miranda rights? 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:43.120 I did not anything that I recorded remumba actually. 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.320 So you're the right to remain silent, and that's exactly 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:46.760 way you should do, and that's important to them. And 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:48.440 they interrupted you for a second because I like to 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.080 tell people on the show that you should know, if 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.160 you're listening right now, if you or someone you love 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.080 gets picked up for something you didn't do and the 0:15:58.120 --> 0:15:59.800 cops want to talk to you about it. All you 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:02.640 say is I want a lawyer. That's all you tell them, 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.080 telling your name, your address, and I want a lawyer, 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.400 and stop talking. If you get picked up, you have 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.320 the right to remain sound. There's a reason for that. 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.720 The reason is that if you say something, it can 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.160 be held against you. And don't say anything. 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.720 It could be school and twisted around. 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.920 You talking you're at their mercy, So don't talk. But 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.840 you didn't, right, So that was smart, and yet things 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.840 just continued to go Soundhill. Yeah, So so what happened 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.360 whether they said bail, no, you were held without bail. 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.680 That I recall. Yeah, I was held without bail. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:36.880 Where were you held in jail? And how long were 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:38.560 you held for prior to your trials? I'm assuming you 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:39.680 didn't make trial. 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.040 I was on Records Island. I was also on the 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.320 boat on the Bronx and Point, which is part of 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:50.640 Records Island. Oh, Bronx House, Yeah, that I was also in. 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.440 And it was thirteen months before his trial. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.360 Thirteen months in some of the worst places in the world. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:00.120 I set before trying all that. But I think the 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.360 bill with something like what it's an astronomical number, something 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:04.240 I couldn't afford. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:06.960 So you were there, So I was there. If you 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.320 can't post it, you can't post it. And I always 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.520 think bail is such a strange thing too, because if 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.000 you're rich and violent, you can go home. No. I 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:18.720 mean that's what we say, you know, because I've been 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:20.639 working on bail reform for many years, and you know 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.080 there's a saying in the bailiform movement that a system 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.080 in which Robert Thurst goes home and Sandra Blamb goes 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.200 to prison is a broken system, right, I mean Robert Thurst, 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:30.760 I don't know if he saw the jinx. He was 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.000 arrested for murdering and dismembering his next door neighbor, Like 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:35.520 he cut his head off, he put his body in 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.680 little bags and a whole thing like and bails two fifty. 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.920 He was like, you want cash, you right check? Any 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.879 went right home. I mean, so it doesn't make any sense. 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:45.920 Like as a society, I think we should say, Okay, 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.920 if we think that this guy is really dangerous, then 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.440 we got to hold you, and money shouldn't make the difference. 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:53.960 And if you're not dangerous, you should be sent home 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.320 until your trial, go home to your You had a 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.520 kid at the time. But okay, so you're held for 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:03.080 thirteen months in this cination of horrible places, right places? 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.000 I mean and Rikers the boat. I mean, you know, 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.680 we have a jail in New York City that's literally 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:11.760 on a boat. We haven't talked about that on the 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.159 show because you're the first person I've interviewed who's actually 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.760 been on the boat. But is that as bad as Rikers? 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:17.600 How bad is it? 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.919 How bad is it? It is bad? Yeah, it's just 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.040 as bad. I mean, whatever stories you hear, you hear 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:26.000 about Rikers, it's the same stories you're going to hear 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.920 about the boat. And it's dirty, the food's not that great. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.639 Then the conditions are horrible. I mean, you have like 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:39.120 forty different personalities in one area, sleeping with each other, 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.760 spending each other's feet, spending each other's thoughts. 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:43.880 And that's the thing about Chelse. You have a violent 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:45.600 little mixture of people who are violent people and non 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.119