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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody and that's the first thing we said,

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Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.

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Speaker 4: They can.

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Speaker 5: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Ronfuel Conviction with

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Speaker 5: Jason Flom. Today we're going to tell the story of

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Speaker 5: Angel Cordero, which is an ongoing story and it is

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Speaker 5: in some ways sadly typical of the system, and I'll

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Speaker 5: explain that. In other ways it's terrifying.

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Speaker 6: A bronx ban is released from prison after serving thirteen

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Speaker 6: years for a crime. He says he didn't commit. Angel

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Speaker 6: Cordero came home two years early for good behavior. Cordero

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Speaker 6: was found guilty of murder and sentenced to fifteen years

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Speaker 6: for the stabbing of a Bronx resident in nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 6: The victim was walking home when he was attacked by

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Speaker 6: a group of strangers. Officers responding to the attack arrested

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Speaker 6: five minutes the scene, including Cordero and his brother. Mounting

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Speaker 6: evidence in favor of Cordero's innocence and motions filed to

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Speaker 6: appelas case have not been successful. Cordero's brother was also

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Speaker 6: convicted for the same crime, but was really earlier, where

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Speaker 6: Daro insisted he will continue fighting for an exoneration.

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Speaker 5: Angel. Welcome to ronful conviction. Thank you, Jason, and with

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Speaker 5: him is his beautiful wife, Michelle. Michelle, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so.

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Speaker 5: Angel, your case makes no fucking sense. What's I mean,

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Speaker 5: It just doesn't make any sense. But before we get

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Speaker 5: into all of that, Yeah, and we'll get into all

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Speaker 5: that for sure, but let's go back to before any

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Speaker 5: of this insanity happened. And of course it's it's a

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Speaker 5: family tragedy because you and your brother were both convicted

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Speaker 5: of this crime along with other people. But how was

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Speaker 5: life treating you before everything went upside down and sideways

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Speaker 5: and turned into a nightmare.

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Speaker 4: I had a regular teenage light, you know. I was

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Speaker 4: into sports, working out New York City, New York City, Bronx,

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Speaker 4: what kind of sports? My favorite basketball Bolso played BASB

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Speaker 4: one football as well.

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Speaker 5: So you're having this, you know, happyildhood pretty much right.

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Speaker 5: How many brothers and sisters.

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Speaker 4: Did you have? I have one brother and three sisters,

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Speaker 4: but two of my sisters off my father's side, so

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Speaker 4: I wasn't in contact with them as much. But I

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Speaker 4: lived with my brother and my sister and my mother, So.

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Speaker 5: You had it's sort of a typical childhood. You were

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Speaker 5: never in trouble, right, in trouble, no prior record before

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Speaker 5: this happened. Because that's the thing, angel I get asked

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Speaker 5: a lot from people. Well, this guy got wrongfully convicted.

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Speaker 5: He probably was doing something else or there must have

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Speaker 5: been some reason. But we know that most of the

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Speaker 5: people who were wrongfully convicted had no prior record, just

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Speaker 5: like you didn't when this thing happened. Let's go back

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Speaker 5: to the night going into the morning. Well May fifteenth

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Speaker 5: and sixteenth nineteen ninety nine. Yes, this was a stabbing, right,

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Speaker 5: It's a very bloody crime. Yes, And the cops were

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Speaker 5: there quickly after the fact, right after the fact.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So how did this incident unfold?

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Speaker 4: I must start around eight o'clock that night, my brother

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Speaker 4: and I was invited to a birthday party for one

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Speaker 4: of our neighbors sons. He was gonna turn one. So

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Speaker 4: we went to the party and we stood there till

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Speaker 4: like two in the morning, and then by two in

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Speaker 4: the morning with up the party because there was already

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Speaker 4: winding down by that time, and we went outside to

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Speaker 4: the corner store cause my brother wanted to get a

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Speaker 4: pack of cigarettes. And then while he's in the corner store,

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Speaker 4: I'm in the corner talking some you know, some people,

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Speaker 4: some ladies that were there. So he gets a pack

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Speaker 4: of cigarettes, he comes back towards me, and then all

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Speaker 4: of a sudden, we just see fight break out across

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Speaker 4: the street from where we were at, and my brother's like,

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Speaker 4: always go check it out, see what happened. Then I

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Speaker 4: just started following. As he crosses the street, I see

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Speaker 4: the cops turning the corner, just jumping out of the car.

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Speaker 4: It was on my mom car. I knew what a

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Speaker 4: cop car looked like. I'm from from the Bronx. I'm

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Speaker 4: from a neighborhood where if you're not paying attention your surroundings,

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Speaker 4: then you're kind of being dumb. So when they pulled out,

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Speaker 4: I noticed all four officers jumping out, and then one

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Speaker 4: of the officers went towards my brother directly, for no

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Speaker 4: parent reason, grabbed him and that's when I got involved.

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Speaker 4: Went through the crowd, and I was just trying to

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Speaker 4: question the officer. Why was the reason he was grabbing

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Speaker 4: on my brother. He turned around and just puts the

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Speaker 4: gun to my face. Instinctively, just put my hands down

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Speaker 4: like yo, and then he get against the wall.

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Speaker 5: Did you even know at this point that someone had

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Speaker 5: been stabbed?

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Speaker 4: I didn't know what the fuck was going on. I

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Speaker 4: knew there was a fight going on. Other than that,

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Speaker 4: I didn't know what happened.

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Speaker 5: Because you heard like yelling, screaming.

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Speaker 4: From across the street. You can see two kids fighting, right,

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Speaker 4: you know, you can see a commotion happening.

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Speaker 5: But now there was a crowd, so you're just sort

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Speaker 5: of in the crowd.

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Speaker 4: My view is catching my brother being grab out. This

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Speaker 4: officer where his gun out.

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Speaker 5: This is your little brother, my little brother, So you're

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Speaker 5: doing what a big brother does. You're sort of trying

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Speaker 5: to come to his you know, hey.

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Speaker 4: I'm focusing on him now. I don't know anything else

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Speaker 4: but what was going on in front of me.

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Speaker 5: And then the next thing, you know, the cops got

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Speaker 5: a gun in your face.

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Speaker 4: Next thing, you know, the guns in my.

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Speaker 5: Face, and what happens next?

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Speaker 4: So I put my hands up and the next thing,

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Speaker 4: he's yelling at me to get against the wall, and

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Speaker 4: I'm like, for what, I'm questioning him, why just get

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Speaker 4: against the wall, And I'm refusing. I'm not getting against

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Speaker 4: the wall for nothing. So he just smashed me with

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Speaker 4: a gun. And next thing, you know, I feel a

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Speaker 4: bunch of hits happening, and I go down to put

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Speaker 4: the handcuffs on me, and one of the officers said, hey, hey,

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Speaker 4: look up. I look up and I'm maced. And so

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Speaker 4: the rest of the now, all I could do is

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Speaker 4: hear people around me talking and screaming, and but I

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Speaker 4: can't see anything.

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Speaker 5: Wow, this is this is heavy. I mean, you're one

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Speaker 5: minute you're just buying cigarettes and the next minute you're

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Speaker 5: in this insane situation of being beaten up by the cops,

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Speaker 5: pistol whipped, and now you're blind and.

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Speaker 4: The gun was to my face. At the time, the

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Speaker 4: officers were cowboys, were talking about the nineties where the

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Speaker 4: officer was killing just about any innocent person that was

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Speaker 4: in the bronx.

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Speaker 5: You knew that the cops were out of control at

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Speaker 5: that time in that neighborhood. But yet you had said,

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Speaker 5: I'm not getting up against the wall. You must have

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Speaker 5: known what you were heading into by sort of disobeying

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Speaker 5: in order, right, so you still believe in the system

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Speaker 5: somewhat if you said, well, if I know I'm innocent,

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Speaker 5: if I just stayed up for my right, so I'm.

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Speaker 4: Gonna be all right, Right, I did nothing wrong.

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Speaker 5: So now you're laying on the ground, you're bleeding, you've

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Speaker 5: been beaten up, you're blind, you're handcuffed.

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Speaker 4: So I go to the hospital, and the hospital and

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Speaker 4: one of the cops started messing with me. He started

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Speaker 4: rough housing me that even the nurse, one of the

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Speaker 4: nurses had to get involved and she was leaving them alone,

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Speaker 4: leave them alone. She came and took care of me.

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Speaker 4: She stished me up and everything.

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Speaker 3: Because they cracked the angels head open. They had million

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Speaker 3: staples in the back of his head.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this was not like this is now of them

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Speaker 5: slapping you around. I mean they almost they I mean

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Speaker 5: nine staples in your head. That's uh. I mean even

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Speaker 5: just hearing about it now, and even though it's Jesus

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Speaker 5: almost twenty years ago, it's just sickening. I mean, like

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Speaker 5: the whole thing is really uh. Like I said, it's

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Speaker 5: terrifying and it's sickening. There's just so many things wrong

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Speaker 5: with this story already, and then it gets worse, right,

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Speaker 5: then it gets worse. I mean you're probably thinking at

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Speaker 5: this point, what the hell else can go wrong? But

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Speaker 5: did you still feel like, Okay, well, I'm going to

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Speaker 5: get out of this. I mean all times now you're

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Speaker 5: laying in the hospital, did you know what had happened?

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Speaker 4: Didn't know?

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Speaker 5: So you have no idea, what the hell?

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Speaker 4: Nothing other than the cors beat me up. And then

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Speaker 4: I think I mentioned to one of them, I'm anaue

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Speaker 4: your asses after all this is said and done. And

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Speaker 4: then I guess I sparked something in them or something.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know the motive to what,

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Speaker 4: What was their motive for putting me in prison? I

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Speaker 4: forgot to mention that when I was getting beat up,

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Speaker 4: Dario already had been apprehended before that. Yeah, I got

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Speaker 4: hit with the butt of a gun in the back

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Speaker 4: of his head, your brother, No, Dariel the perpetration, right, Okay,

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Speaker 4: he was apprehended as the Coptenson was all for da

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Speaker 4: on me. That's when Daril got the opportunity to get

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Speaker 4: up and run. So they had him. He was on

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Speaker 4: the floor, apprehended. They had him and physically had him

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Speaker 4: that same moment that the crime happened.

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Speaker 3: They let the bad guy get away and they couldn't

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Speaker 3: admit it.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's the weird thing in this story too, right,

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Speaker 5: And I was doing my homework to get ready for

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Speaker 5: the episode. I'm sitting here going were they friends with

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Speaker 5: this guy? Like? Why would they have done this guy?

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Speaker 5: The favor of life? This one came with instructions, right,

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Speaker 5: like the Academy one on one like this is it?

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Speaker 5: You got your guy right there? I mean, so the

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Speaker 5: cops roll up on this scene minutes after it happened, right,

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Speaker 5: almost record speed, and they got the perpetrator there covered

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Speaker 5: in blood.

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Speaker 4: Yes, right, And.

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Speaker 5: This is like a dream, right, this is like you

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Speaker 5: could get this case done quick and get home in

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Speaker 5: time for dinner. So absolutely, So that's the crazy thing.

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Speaker 5: And this guy Bdario Rodriguez, Sai Barrio Rodriguez, he's no dummy.

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Speaker 5: He takes the opportunity. Once all this commotion happens and

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Speaker 5: you're getting beat up and your brother's getting beat up,

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Speaker 5: he's like, well, I'm getting the fuck out of here. Absolutely,

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Speaker 5: and he said he crawled and then he got up,

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Speaker 5: and then he ran and he got rid of his

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Speaker 5: bloody clothes, right and then he was like, man, I

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Speaker 5: mean and considering.

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Speaker 3: How many times he'd been in jail, he knew, he

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Speaker 3: knew what could possibly happen if he didn't run away.

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Speaker 5: So okay, now let's go back to that for a second.

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Speaker 5: I'm glad you brought to that, Michelle. So, this guy

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Speaker 5: Dario is a known bad guy. It's fair to say

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Speaker 5: the cops knew about him from the neighborhood because he

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Speaker 5: was a guy he was in and out of jail

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Speaker 5: all the time.

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Speaker 4: At the time, I think he was like twenty eight

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Speaker 4: and he's been getting on arrested since the age of fourteen.

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Speaker 4: So it's a news record.

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Speaker 5: Wow, hard to hard to process this one. A little

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Speaker 5: bit okay. So now you're in the hospital. Yes, how

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Speaker 5: long was the hospital for?

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Speaker 4: Four or five hours?

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Speaker 5: And then they take you to jail.

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Speaker 4: We left on eight o'clock that morning to the TENTI booking. Now,

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Speaker 4: when I get into the cop car from the hospital,

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Speaker 4: this is Sugan Delaney. What happened last night? He's actually

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Speaker 4: me what happened last night?

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Speaker 5: And you still don't know?

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Speaker 4: And I said, I don't know. He's asking me what

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Speaker 4: happened last night. So I'm on the back seat. It's me,

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Speaker 4: it's Delaney. I think it's Curry anyhow. So then he

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Speaker 4: in terms of mind asked me, asked me what happened

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Speaker 4: last night? And I'm like, y'all fucked me up. That's

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Speaker 4: the only thing that happened last night. I'm'a fucking sue ya.

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Speaker 4: I got a voiceous And he was like, man, he

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Speaker 4: seems like such a nice guy. I can't believe what

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Speaker 4: you did. And I'm like, I like, hell, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I already anew where that was going, Like, I'm from

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Speaker 4: a neighborhood where I got already told you. You your

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Speaker 4: senses and your awareness is a little more keen to things,

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Speaker 4: especially with bullshit. So he was like, why why you

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Speaker 4: stabbed that kid last night? And I was like, man, I'm

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Speaker 4: not even talking to you guys, no more, don't even

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Speaker 4: talk to me. Don't even talk to me, you know shit, yeah,

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Speaker 4: bugging right now. We went to forty first Precinct. That's

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Speaker 4: when I saw the other guys that was arrested.

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Speaker 5: With me that night, including your brother, including my brother.

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Speaker 4: And that's how I found out by Dario being there

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Speaker 4: that night, caught up through Pierre and Julio. They told me,

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Speaker 4: what the fuck are you doing here? They didn't even

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Speaker 4: know I got arrested. Then when it's on me coming in,

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Speaker 4: they asked me, what the fuck are you doing here?

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Speaker 4: I said, what the fuck you mean? I'm doing here

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Speaker 4: for the shit that just happened. He was like, but why,

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Speaker 4: I said, the constans fucked me up, and then they

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Speaker 4: arrested me and then put me in here with you.

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Speaker 3: Guys at their original arrest questioning where the DA comes

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Speaker 3: in the very first time, all three of them, Julio, Pierre,

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Speaker 3: and Gregory all say we know the guy who did

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Speaker 3: it that same night. That was that night, it was

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Speaker 3: maybe an hour after the incident. Will take you to

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Speaker 3: where he is. We know where he is. He's colored

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Speaker 3: in blood, we know where he lives.

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Speaker 4: His name is that.

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Speaker 3: We will take you to him. This is all in transcripts.

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Speaker 3: The first night, they just ignored it.

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Speaker 5: Right, Let's just reflect on that for a second too,

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Speaker 5: because with these guys, crackheads, with these guys like young kids,

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Speaker 5: there was no reason for the cops to think that

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Speaker 5: they would be making up a story, right, and especially

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Speaker 5: there's three of them, three of them, So there's three

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Speaker 5: of them all going.

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Speaker 4: I know where he's at. I'm not going down for this.

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Speaker 4: I know where he's.

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Speaker 5: At, and they never followed up on.

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Speaker 4: It, and then never followed up on that. They just

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Speaker 4: ignored it.

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Speaker 5: It's so weird.

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Speaker 4: Well, when you put it together with they had him apprehended,

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Speaker 4: So then there goes three kids telling you, I know

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Speaker 4: where he's at, let's go get him. What's going on?

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Speaker 4: What happened here? What's the motive? What's the motive? That's

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Speaker 4: what the question I always ask myself, what's the motives?

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Speaker 4: Put me in jail?

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Speaker 5: I Mean, the only thing which still doesn't make any

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Speaker 5: sense that I could possibly think of is that they

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Speaker 5: maybe feel a little embarrassed that they had already had

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Speaker 5: the guy. They let him go. But why nobody's gonna

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Speaker 5: know that? That doesn't make any difference.

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Speaker 4: Why doesn't matter when the end of the day, he

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Speaker 4: did the right thing. Gituation.

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Speaker 5: But I'm thinking, I'm not thinking about doing the right thing.

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Speaker 5: There's not a lot of right things being done here

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Speaker 5: so far, right I mean, And I'm thinking about you

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Speaker 5: in this situation too. Had you called anybody by this point,

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Speaker 5: your parents, anybody else.

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Speaker 4: Sister knew she was at the scene. She came to

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Speaker 4: the scene.

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Speaker 3: Someone called her, just got arrested.

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Speaker 5: So she figured out that you were at the precinct

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Speaker 5: and she came.

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Speaker 4: She came to the crime scene. We was laid on

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Speaker 4: the floor for a while, like they didn't just arrests

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Speaker 4: picked us up and let leave.

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Speaker 3: By the way, just a visual, Hunts Point is small

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Speaker 3: and someone is small.

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Speaker 4: The whole community really knows each other.

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Speaker 3: You could walk that neighborhood in a few minutes.

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Speaker 4: It's a small person. If somebody knows your neighborhood, most

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Speaker 4: likely fifty people's gonna know your neighborhood. But there's a

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Speaker 4: small community.

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Speaker 3: So your sister did Tony's Angel's brother. She told Tony,

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Speaker 3: you know why you're here. And he's like, no, oh,

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Speaker 3: and she said it's murdered. There was a stabbing and

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Speaker 3: he went no, like he didn't even know why he

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Speaker 3: was there until Keisha, my sister in law.

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Speaker 5: Told now you're in the precinct, you get fingerprinted, booked,

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Speaker 5: et cetera.

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Speaker 4: And then what happened, Well, before I went to the precinct,

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Speaker 4: they had all of us talked to the DA. The

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Speaker 4: fair printed me and all that. Then we all talked

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Speaker 4: to the guy so to the DA and I refused

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Speaker 4: to talk to the DA. I said, isn't need for

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Speaker 4: me to talk to the I don't.

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Speaker 5: Know, don't talk about Well, that was the right thing

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Speaker 5: to do because you had no lawyer. They read your

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Speaker 5: Maranda rights and did you wave your Miranda rights?

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Speaker 4: I did not anything that I recorded remumba actually.

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Speaker 5: So you're the right to remain silent, and that's exactly

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Speaker 5: way you should do, and that's important to them. And

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Speaker 5: they interrupted you for a second because I like to

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Speaker 5: tell people on the show that you should know, if

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Speaker 5: you're listening right now, if you or someone you love

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Speaker 5: gets picked up for something you didn't do and the

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Speaker 5: cops want to talk to you about it. All you

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Speaker 5: say is I want a lawyer. That's all you tell them,

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Speaker 5: telling your name, your address, and I want a lawyer,

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Speaker 5: and stop talking. If you get picked up, you have

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Speaker 5: the right to remain sound. There's a reason for that.

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Speaker 5: The reason is that if you say something, it can

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Speaker 5: be held against you. And don't say anything.

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Speaker 4: It could be school and twisted around.

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Speaker 5: You talking you're at their mercy, So don't talk. But

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Speaker 5: you didn't, right, So that was smart, and yet things

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Speaker 5: just continued to go Soundhill. Yeah, So so what happened

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Speaker 5: whether they said bail, no, you were held without bail.

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Speaker 4: That I recall. Yeah, I was held without bail.

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Speaker 5: Where were you held in jail? And how long were

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Speaker 5: you held for prior to your trials? I'm assuming you

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Speaker 5: didn't make trial.

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Speaker 4: I was on Records Island. I was also on the

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Speaker 4: boat on the Bronx and Point, which is part of

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Speaker 4: Records Island. Oh, Bronx House, Yeah, that I was also in.

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Speaker 3: And it was thirteen months before his trial.

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Speaker 5: Thirteen months in some of the worst places in the world.

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Speaker 4: I set before trying all that. But I think the

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Speaker 4: bill with something like what it's an astronomical number, something

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Speaker 4: I couldn't afford.

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Speaker 5: So you were there, So I was there. If you

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Speaker 5: can't post it, you can't post it. And I always

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Speaker 5: think bail is such a strange thing too, because if

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Speaker 5: you're rich and violent, you can go home. No. I

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Speaker 5: mean that's what we say, you know, because I've been

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Speaker 5: working on bail reform for many years, and you know

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Speaker 5: there's a saying in the bailiform movement that a system

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Speaker 5: in which Robert Thurst goes home and Sandra Blamb goes

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Speaker 5: to prison is a broken system, right, I mean Robert Thurst,

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Speaker 5: I don't know if he saw the jinx. He was

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Speaker 5: arrested for murdering and dismembering his next door neighbor, Like

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Speaker 5: he cut his head off, he put his body in

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Speaker 5: little bags and a whole thing like and bails two fifty.

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Speaker 5: He was like, you want cash, you right check? Any

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Speaker 5: went right home. I mean, so it doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 5: Like as a society, I think we should say, Okay,

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Speaker 5: if we think that this guy is really dangerous, then

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Speaker 5: we got to hold you, and money shouldn't make the difference.

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Speaker 5: And if you're not dangerous, you should be sent home

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Speaker 5: until your trial, go home to your You had a

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Speaker 5: kid at the time. But okay, so you're held for

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Speaker 5: thirteen months in this cination of horrible places, right places?

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Speaker 5: I mean and Rikers the boat. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 5: we have a jail in New York City that's literally

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Speaker 5: on a boat. We haven't talked about that on the

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Speaker 5: show because you're the first person I've interviewed who's actually

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Speaker 5: been on the boat. But is that as bad as Rikers?

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Speaker 5: How bad is it?

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Speaker 4: How bad is it? It is bad? Yeah, it's just

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Speaker 4: as bad. I mean, whatever stories you hear, you hear

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Speaker 4: about Rikers, it's the same stories you're going to hear

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Speaker 4: about the boat. And it's dirty, the food's not that great.

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Speaker 4: Then the conditions are horrible. I mean, you have like

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Speaker 4: forty different personalities in one area, sleeping with each other,

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Speaker 4: spending each other's feet, spending each other's thoughts.

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Speaker 5: And that's the thing about Chelse. You have a violent

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Speaker 5: little mixture of people who are violent people and non

401
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Speaker 5: violent people are guilty, people are innocent. But everybody has

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Speaker 5: one thing common. They want to go home, and they're frustrated,

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Speaker 5: and it gets violent and it's chaotic. You know, there's

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Speaker 5: nothing good about any of it. And then there you

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Speaker 5: are for thirteen months. Now, when did you first get

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Speaker 5: a lawyer? And how much time did you get to

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Speaker 5: spend with your lawyer prior to trial? Is it a

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Speaker 5: public defender?

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Speaker 4: Public defender? So my first love was a lady. She

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Speaker 4: actually sat down, sat down with me, looked me in

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Speaker 4: my face, and she just tells me she believes that

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Speaker 4: I'm guilty.

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Speaker 5: Would you say?

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Speaker 4: I forget that my exact words, but I know my

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Speaker 4: exact thought was like, okay, so you need to be here.

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Speaker 4: So then I think I got the manco.

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Speaker 5: And did you get to spend any meaningful amount of

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Speaker 5: time with any of your attorneys before the trial?

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Speaker 4: Me and the Manchael spoke a couple of times.

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Speaker 5: We spoke a couple of times.

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Speaker 4: We have Yeah, no, But I just want you to know how.

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Speaker 5: That sounds to me. Right. So here you are, you're

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Speaker 5: facing a sentence of fifteen years to life. I think

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Speaker 5: people would like to think that you spent some time

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Speaker 5: with your lawyer going through documents evidence that that's not

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Speaker 5: the way it was. You spoke to him a couple

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Speaker 5: of times.

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Speaker 4: I spoke to them a couple of times.

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Speaker 5: How you doing.

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Speaker 4: We didn't go through no paperwork. It was just a

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Speaker 4: couple of questions and a couple of answers.

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Speaker 5: Right, and that's you know, I mean, look, public de

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Speaker 5: there's a lot of very good ones. I have a

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Speaker 5: lot of respect for people who go into that line

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Speaker 5: of work because it's a thankless job. They're dealing with

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Speaker 5: hundreds of cases, they're underpaid, overworking, and even the best

437
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 5: ones are really really have an uphill battle in every situation.

438
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 5: You eventually end up at trial, eventually with a lawyer

439
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,640
Speaker 5: who's senior. A couple of times it's fair to say

440
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 5: he's probably unprepared.

441
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,399
Speaker 4: He put a good show, though he did. I mean

442
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 4: a show doesn't mean he put up a good fight.

443
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 4: It's two different things.

444
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 5: That's an interesting way of putting it. So you're a trial,

445
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,679
Speaker 5: you have the three cops testify against you, and the

446
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 5: one witness, right, which was actually the guy who was stabbed.

447
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 4: Correct.

448
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 5: And it's important to talk about this to Angel because

449
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 5: the guy who was stabbed this is thirteen months later, right,

450
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 5: and he's trying to remember a very traumatic incident that

451
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 5: happened in the dark, in the middle of the night.

452
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 5: And we know the way memory works, you know, the

453
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 5: leading cause of raeful convictions, of course, is mistaken eye

454
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 5: withness identification. Then that could be it could be the eyewitness,

455
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 5: or it could be the victim themselves. But we know

456
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,919
Speaker 5: that memory not only doesn't function like a camera in

457
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 5: the first place. Right, if somebody runs in here now

458
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 5: and assaults one of us and then they put him

459
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 5: us in a lineup in ten minutes, we're still going

460
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 5: to probably get it wrong. That's been proven in experiments

461
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 5: after experiments, But thirteen months later, the memory is really

462
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 5: not great. It fades and it changes, and you get

463
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 5: influenced by things that people say and things that you see.

464
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 5: So somehow or other, this guy who had been stabbed.

465
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 5: And also we know that when a weapon is involved,

466
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 5: the incidence of wrongful identification go up dramatically because your

467
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 5: senses are you're freaking out right, You're in it. Yeah,

468
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 5: you're in extreme danger, You're everything. All the synapses are firing,

469
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 5: every nerve ending is going nuts, and it messes with

470
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 5: your mind, so it messes with your memory. So we know,

471
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 5: like I said, that instances of rumfele identification go up

472
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 5: dramatically when there's a weapon involved. But even if it's

473
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 5: a personatching with no weapon whatever, we know that still

474
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 5: ey wouldnesses get it wrong more often to get it right.

475
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 5: So there you are. You must be like, what the

476
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 5: hell's going on? Why is this guy? Why is this

477
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 5: guy saying I did it? Shouldn't he know who stabbed him?

478
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 3: Of course at the trial, which is the first time

479
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 3: Jason ever saw Angel. Jason's the victim, first time he

480
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 3: ever saw Angel.

481
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, you didn't know it.

482
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 4: I've never seen him either. Like, I'm from the neighborhood.

483
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 4: I've been in the neighborhood most of my life and

484
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 4: I've never saw it, okay at all. And to go

485
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 4: backtracked a little bit, the cops, like you were saying,

486
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 4: told him about or we got the guys, but you.

487
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 3: Were talking about like influencing someone's mind. The night that Jason,

488
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 3: I mean, his lung was collapsed, he was stabbed. He

489
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 3: was seriously injured.

490
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 5: But this was not a little slice, right.

491
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. It was bad. He he didn't.

492
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 4: Even know it was the cops that was coming to rescue.

493
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,479
Speaker 4: Hening and who it was. It was just to him,

494
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 4: it was somebody came and a fight started, and he

495
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 4: got the opportunity to get away, and he got away.

496
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he crawled home.

497
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 5: The victim.

498
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 3: The victim but his house was like three houses from

499
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: where the incident happened. He was like almost home when

500
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 3: the incident happened. When he was in the hospital, the

501
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 3: police officers were saying to him, we got him, we

502
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 3: got him. No lineup, no finger pointing, no prior arrest

503
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 3: book with photos because the angel had no history, right,

504
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 3: no mugshot, right, none of this. Fast forward thirteen months later,

505
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 3: they asked, Jason, you know, where's the guy who did it?

506
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 3: And it's not like he had to look around really far.

507
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 3: I mean, he's going to point to the guy sitting

508
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 3: in the defendant's chair right there he is. Wait a minute,

509
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 3: he looks taller and heavier.

510
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 5: That's what he said.

511
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 3: That's what he said.

512
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 5: But it is important to note that you bear a

513
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 5: physical resemblance to the actual purpetare, right, which is really

514
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 5: another here. You were a wrong place, wrong time, and

515
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 5: you happen to, you know, have some physical characteristics that

516
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 5: you share. Another piece of bad bad luck. But okay,

517
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 5: but still he's saying, he's questioning himself.

518
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: He's going, yeah, and this is in try transcripts. You

519
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 3: know he looks he looks taller. Well, yeah, Dario's significantly shorter.

520
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: Than Angel, and he looks a lot heavier. In the meantime,

521
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: Angel had lost more than thirty pounds on Riker's islence.

522
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 5: But nonetheless, you know, as you said, you know it

523
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 5: makes sense. He's in the courtroom, he's thinking, well, all

524
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 5: these people are here because this guy Stabby is probably

525
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 5: the guy.

526
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 3: He looks close enough the guy, right, I mean the guy.

527
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 4: He's a little taller, a little heavier. But yeah, the

528
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 4: cop said it was him, so I had to be.

529
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 5: Had the jury goes out, how long did they deliberate

530
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 5: for him?

531
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 4: Remember a day, full day, twenty four hours.

532
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 5: That's gotta be a long fucking day waiting for that.

533
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to get convicted, you because I

534
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 4: knew that my lawyer wasn't working throughly on my behalf.

535
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 4: He didn't give me the best chance to win. He

536
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 4: didn't really get out the full details I needed to

537
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 4: be out there. And even though he didn't do that,

538
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 4: with the information that they had was I think was

539
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 4: enough for me to win the case.

540
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 3: During the trial, Dario's girlfriend comes into the courtroom. This

541
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 3: is like a movie. She comes into the courtroom and

542
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 3: she's like, I want to speak, I want to speak.

543
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 4: During the deliberation, timeberation.

544
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 3: I want to speak, I want to testify. He wasn't

545
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: with me that night. She was his alibi.

546
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, he said that night that he was with her.

547
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 4: She really wasn't.

548
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 5: So she came clean, but too late to help you.

549
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 4: Because judgment judge had to open the case. Yere.

550
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 5: Wow, that's a heavy one. I mean, I wonder how

551
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 5: that even works, Like if you're the judge. I don't

552
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 5: know what the legal principle is or whether he would

553
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 5: be allowed to reopen the case.

554
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 4: He would have been been It's a judgment call. That's

555
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 4: why he's a judge.

556
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it would be his duty.

557
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, and we know that we found out later that

558
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 5: a nun testified and said that she was in the

559
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 5: homeless shelter, that the nun worked on the night that

560
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 5: he claimed that he was with.

561
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 3: Her with curfew, with walking, So she was no.

562
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 5: Question that his alibi was totally false. Right. So, and again,

563
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 5: if your attorney had had more time, had been more diligent,

564
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 5: had been more interested, he probably could have fished out

565
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 5: some of these things.

566
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 4: He was more diligent, That's what he needed to be.

567
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 4: He needed to be interested in me. He wasn't interested

568
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 4: in me.

569
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: He didn't you didn't care about you.

570
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 5: No, he was processing representing. But it is interesting that

571
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 5: the jury deliberated for a full day even though you

572
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 5: had three police officers and the victim testifying saying this

573
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 5: is the guy that did it. You could see how

574
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 5: it would be more likely that they would deliberate for

575
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 5: an hour if they were sure, and they would have said,

576
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 5: we don't even want lunch. Right, yeah, I'm going home. Absolutely,

577
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 5: I got my kids at home. Oh I got this,

578
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 5: I got that right. And that's why it's important for

579
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 5: people listening. Many of them will end up on juries

580
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 5: and criminal trials. You know, you have somebody's life in

581
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 5: your hands. You got to take this seriously. It sounds

582
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 5: like the jury actually did do their job, and even

583
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 5: though they got the wrong answer, at least it sounds

584
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 5: like they took it seriously. So they come back in

585
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 5: and that moment, even though you thought you were going

586
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 5: to be found guilty, the system had let you down

587
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 5: in so many different ways at this point, What was

588
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 5: that moment like when they come back in, they shuffle in.

589
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 5: What were you going through at that moment?

590
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 4: I was hope football, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

591
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 4: That's their hurts. It still hurts nine, but it definitely hurt.

592
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 4: It tremids back then I just looked in my brother's face.

593
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 4: He was crying, My mother was crying, my sister, and

594
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 4: then I just came another judge, but we have another witness.

595
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: We have the perpetrator's wife here ready to testify. It

596
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 4: was that chance he paint me no mind. It threw

597
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 4: us out the court, and I just told my mother

598
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 4: that was gonna be all right. It's gonna be all right.

599
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 4: And I don't know how the time, I already don't.

600
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 4: I don't know. I kept strong, well, man, I guess

601
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 4: there's reasons.

602
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 3: You always believe till the day he walked out that door,

603
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: he always believed he was going to get exonerated. I

604
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 3: did every denial, every shitty answer in the mail.

605
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 5: Let's talk about that, because your brother was convicted also,

606
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 5: but his conviction was overturned on the technicality and he

607
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 5: was freed after six years.

608
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 4: The technicality was that I got boisterous and that it

609
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 4: threw us out, and he didn't get to hear his

610
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 4: verdict because it threw both That wasn't supposed to throw

611
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 4: me out because I'm screaming with But the girl is here.

612
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 4: She gotted to testify, That's all I'm saying.

613
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 5: So you're gonna try with your brother, Yes, And he

614
00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 5: got thrown out of the court room.

615
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 4: Both of us got thrown out. He was not supposed to.

616
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 4: That was said accuntity, that he got the reversal on.

617
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 5: Wow, that's the only good break in this whole story that.

618
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: Seven years later did seven years before he got the reversal.

619
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 5: Right, and that's seven years a hard time. But but

620
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 5: then even for you, it still was worse because you

621
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 5: had so many appeals and you had new evidence that

622
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 5: kept coming up.

623
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, different witnesses.

624
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 5: And let's not forget the fact that there was never

625
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 5: any physical evice.

626
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 4: They tried. They tried with the DNA with the blood.

627
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: They said during trial that the blood that was on

628
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 3: Angels clothes belonged to the victim. The clothes tested, but

629
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: the results didn't and air quotes didn't come in in

630
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: time for the conclusion of the trial, so it wasn't

631
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: brought up at the trial any further than that.

632
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 5: Okay, so they they had thirteen months to test the

633
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 5: blood on your clothes, but that wasn't enough time.

634
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: Apparently that wasn't enough time.

635
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: There's even a letter from the DNA testing lab that

636
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: says we have the results to submit something to the result.

637
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: There is never turned it over to its purpose.

638
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 3: That because of all of the blood.

639
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: The results knowing whose blood it was. But on top

640
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: of that, there's still got tended jerviy lies. Well, you

641
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: already knew ahead of time before you entold the Jervisy's

642
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 4: lies that the blood it was my own. It was

643
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 4: not the blood of the victims, as you were betraying

644
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 4: it to be.

645
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 5: Wow. So they yeah, it gets deeper. Now it's not

646
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 5: just police misconduct, it's also prosecutoral miskind of a very

647
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 5: serious nature. And I'm glad this is coming out now

648
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 5: and it will hopefully come out in the future in

649
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 5: an official manner. So they withheld that evidence, they buried it,

650
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 5: they lied about it, they actually twisted it. It's just

651
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 5: worse than hiding. Get it's actually they they knew that

652
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 5: what they were saying at the time was bullshit, actually

653
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 5: totally false. It was the opposite of what they were saying,

654
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 5: And that's pretty compelling evidence for a jury to hear.

655
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 5: You got the victims blood on your clothes. I mean,

656
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 5: if I'm on the jury, I'm going unless you were

657
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 5: trying to help the guy, which we knew you weren't

658
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 5: because you didn't even see him. So so you end

659
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 5: up with these appeals. And let's talk about that too,

660
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 5: because obviously you're not a dumb guy, and you're a

661
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 5: resourceful guy, and you were able to fight from inside

662
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 5: prison to get a new trial and to get new

663
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 5: evidence admitted, and you kept getting new evidence, compelling evidence,

664
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 5: including a confession by the act by the actual guy

665
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 5: who did the crime, the stabber actually confessed. I mean,

666
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 5: that would seem like the golden ticket, the golden ticket, right, Like, Okay,

667
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 5: I'm going home now.

668
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 4: I actually gave everything away. I'm going home. This is

669
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 4: my throat process. Now. There was no ifs about anything else.

670
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 4: I said, I'm going home finally, damn thank you. All

671
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 4: my stuff, all my books, all my best sheets, all

672
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 4: my clothes, all my sneakers. I gave him away. I said,

673
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 4: I'm not going back to this.

674
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 5: Place because you went back to court with the evidence that.

675
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: Yes, he testified at that hearings area and admitted guilt.

676
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 4: I made it, how he did it, why he did it. Yeah,

677
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 4: everything that happened that night, admitted everything the judge.

678
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 5: So again, I mean, I'm pretty experienced at this. I've

679
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 5: been doing this for almost twenty five years. But for

680
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 5: people who might be new to the show, they're sitting

681
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 5: at home, they're going but wait a minute, that's where

682
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 5: the story ends, right, But what happened is that the

683
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 5: the powers that be, the judge, decided that he was

684
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 5: not a credible witness.

685
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, their favorite word, credibility.

686
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 5: He was not a credible witness, but.

687
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 4: He was credible during the time that he's still on

688
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 4: the stand against me on my trial, doing my trial, right,

689
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 4: But he's not credible.

690
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 5: Now, that's got to be almost as bad as the

691
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 5: original conviction.

692
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 4: That was worse, really, kan Off, that might be had

693
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 4: to hang.

694
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 5: Because by now you've been in for six or seven years,

695
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 5: already seven years, yeah, and you're going home. You gave

696
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 5: your stuff away.

697
00:32:59,040 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 4: I get everything.

698
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 5: This wasn't the only new evidence that came out, right.

699
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: No, it was plenty of evidence beforehand before he even

700
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 4: came out.

701
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 5: But let's talk about that too. What was the other

702
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 5: evidence that came out that allowed you to get your appeals?

703
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 4: Heard eyewitnesses, a lot of them twenty eight of them,

704
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 4: twenty eight, twenty eight.

705
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: There were people who said they saw Dario steal a

706
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 3: knife from the party.

707
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 5: That was just and there was a dozen people who

708
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 5: testified that you weren't there, right, yes, right, So twenty

709
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 5: eight witnesses that might be a record is I don't know, we.

710
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 4: Got to look it up. I've never heard of it.

711
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 4: There's a lot of witnesses for those.

712
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 5: People again listening to home, this is your tax dollars

713
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 5: at work, right, this is the system. So twenty eight

714
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 5: eye witnesses, a confession from the killer.

715
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: A confession from the perpetrated, yes.

716
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 5: A confession from the from the purpose.

717
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody died, thank god, would have been in jail.

718
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 4: You imagine that.

719
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 5: And they're like, no, we're not interested. None of this

720
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 5: stuff is moving us. So you ended up going from

721
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 5: state court to federal.

722
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 4: Right, yes?

723
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 5: And how'd that work? Same thing, deny, How did you

724
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 5: get into federal court as opposed to state court for

725
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 5: people who not familiar with the system.

726
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 4: Once you exhaust all your state of peals, then you

727
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: can present everything you presented to the state, to the

728
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 4: fas to the higher court, the higher court.

729
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 5: I mean, you really had overwhelming evidence at this point

730
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 5: of innocence. I don't know what else you can do.

731
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 4: From day one, I had overwhelming evidence from day one.

732
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 4: As soon as three kids tell you, I know where

733
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: he's at, that should have been the end of the story.

734
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 4: I shouldn't have gone no further than that.

735
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 5: And the element of clamsham. We're going back to that again.

736
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 5: So much doom and gloom in this story. But let's

737
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 5: talk about a happy thing. How did you guys meet?

738
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 3: I lived in Florida. I'm from New York, but I

739
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: lived in Florida. I went to graduate school in Florida.

740
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: I became friends with Angel's first cousin. My Space was

741
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 3: the big thing at the time, and you could change

742
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 3: who your top friend was on MySpace until her top

743
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 3: friend was him. But I'd never seen this guy before.

744
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 3: I kind of knew the guy she hung out with, Like,

745
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: who is this guy? She's like my cousin. I'm like

746
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 3: he's cute. She's like he's in prison. I'm like, no way.

747
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 3: And she told me his story and then it unfolds

748
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: from there.

749
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 5: Did she tell you he was innocent?

750
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 3: That was the first thing out of her mouth that

751
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 3: his brother was either just came home or about to

752
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 3: come home, I don't remember. And we talked a little

753
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 3: about the case. She's like, you guys would totally hit

754
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 3: it off as like you're totally insane.

755
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 5: You're like, that's my dream, A guy in prison.

756
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 3: So a guy in prison. You know at this point,

757
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if he's innocent or guilty.

758
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, so what compelled you to want to

759
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 5: find out more? I mean you thought he was cute.

760
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 3: I actually I googled it and I'm a social worker,

761
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 3: so I like to research and investigate. It's just in

762
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: my blood. And I came across this article that was

763
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 3: in the Daily News, but it talked about how he

764
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 3: was innocent and how Dariel had confessed, and I was like,

765
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 3: this is crazy. I want to know more.

766
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 5: Okay, so you want to know more? And then how

767
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 5: did you end up first meeting?

768
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: Well, I did write in the first letter, like, you know,

769
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: I could be your friends. Your case is interesting, you know.

770
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 3: We wrote for a while, then it went to phone

771
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 3: calls for a while, and then I went to visit him.

772
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 3: I don't know how the visit first visit happened. I

773
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 3: don't know if you asked me.

774
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 4: To come on the first visit.

775
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 3: I mean I remember the first visit obviously, but I

776
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 3: don't know how it all went down that. You know,

777
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 3: we decided I was going to go visit him, and

778
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 3: I never stopped visiting. Here we are, we're together, ten years.

779
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 4: Two kids, two kids, two beautiful kids.

780
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's home. Six years just a couple of weeks ago.

781
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 3: Me and six years ago.

782
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 4: You got a parole year ago, usber vision parole. Same shit.

783
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 4: And we have two beautiful kids.

784
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 5: Amazing.

785
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 4: One of the names lug and Danny four years old Jujuicio,

786
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 4: practitioner beast and my little star lit Danny Daniella.

787
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 5: And you have your daughter from before you went away.

788
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 4: And I also, yeah, I have the oldest daughter. How

789
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 4: does she know she is twenty three?

790
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 5: Well, that's amazing. Congratulations on that. That's actually a beautiful

791
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 5: love story. You know, you mentioned something which is obviously

792
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 5: going to get people's attention because I'm sure people are thinking, well,

793
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 5: wait a minute, he's here, he must have been exonerated.

794
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 5: But in fact you still have to fight this case.

795
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 4: I am still fighting the case.

796
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 5: Yes, And let's talk about that too, because ultimately you

797
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 5: were released on parole, as you said after twelve years.

798
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 4: Supervision same a split bit like a two to four.

799
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 4: They consider that going home to parole. When there's a

800
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 4: flat bait, they considered it a supervision basically the same thing.

801
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: But yeah, when Angel was originally sentenced, he didn't plea bargain.

802
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 3: He blew trial. So when he got sentenced, he got

803
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 3: sentenced to fifteen years flat bit, which meant in thirteen

804
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 3: or close to thirteen years he could get out on

805
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: good behavior and that was it. There was no supervision involved.

806
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 4: Yes, there wasn't supervision involved.

807
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 3: There was shifted at some point and allowed I forgot

808
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: about that the Department of Corrections to impose supervision on people.

809
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 3: So they were like slapping people with all the supervision.

810
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: I guess they were working in connection with Department of

811
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 3: the people.

812
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 4: That won't fully put on them. That was getting a play.

813
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: That was either getting the time cut and they go

814
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 4: home there on supervision, or they could finish out their

815
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 4: time and the supervision was taken out, but you had

816
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 4: to do both adventity.

817
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 3: So they placed five years post release supervision on Angel.

818
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 3: They were putting this on everyone. Now this is after

819
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 3: your trial's over. You're serving your time here in the

820
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 3: middle of your time and you get this notice that

821
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: now you have post released supervision, which is what they

822
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 3: term it versus parole. A lot of guys were getting

823
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 3: it reversed because they had plea bargains, and plea bargain

824
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: is like a legal binding agreement, and this was a

825
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: violation of disagreement. But Engel didn't. He went to trial.

826
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 3: So we go to court. His first appellat is hurting

827
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 3: Claudia trup. We go to court with Clodia that this

828
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 3: is an injust addition to his sentence. He had already

829
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 3: been sentenced by the judge, by the judicial system, the

830
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: Department of Corrections, and this has no right to impose

831
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 3: a sentence, and the judge denied him.

832
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 5: So now on.

833
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: Top of this wrongful conviction years, he gets another five

834
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 3: years on supervision when he comes home. And this happened,

835
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 3: we were already together.

836
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 4: I was already better to go home. I was ten

837
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 4: years into the bit after being ten years, and then

838
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 4: that added extra five years on top of everything.

839
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 5: And the good news is that's over now and you

840
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 5: have a chance to fight and actually get this conviction overturned,

841
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 5: at which point you could sue and hopefully get damages

842
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 5: and things that you deserve.

843
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 4: All they had to start is with a sorry. I'll

844
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 4: take a sorry right now, an apology.

845
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 5: And that's a powerful thing that you just said. I mean,

846
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 5: I'll take a sorry. I mean, yeah, I'll give you one. Michelle.

847
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 5: I want to turn to you for a second. So

848
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 5: what was it like for you having this unusual relationship

849
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,959
Speaker 5: let's call it, right? I mean, obviously you're in love.

850
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 5: We know that crosses all boundaries and goes over walls

851
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 5: and everything else. But what was that like being in

852
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 5: a relationship? Did you get people judging you?

853
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: And sure, of course I did. There were people who

854
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 3: didn't know my job didn't know. I mean I told

855
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 3: one person who I work with, who's a friend, but

856
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: I went to work every day and it was my secret.

857
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 5: Must have been people saying, hey, Michelle, I got a

858
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 5: nice guy for you to me whatever. You know.

859
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, times, I mean all of my friends knew people

860
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 3: in my life who judged it as soon as they

861
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: met Angel. While the judgment went away, I think they

862
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: judged circumstance. I like to say I surround myself with

863
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 3: been minded people, but yeah, there was definitely even judgment

864
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 3: from them. It's it's it's weird.

865
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 5: What about your parents?

866
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 3: My father passed away when I was nineteen. It was heartbreaking.

867
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: It to my mom it was difficult. I'm sure that

868
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 3: she was disappointed. But then when she met Angel, because

869
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: she went up to visit him. I remember when we left,

870
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, whoa, what do you think She's like, he's

871
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 3: really even keeled. The way I told my mom was.

872
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: I handed her a book that was written by Angel's

873
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 3: first appellet, attorney Claudia Trump, where angels like featured in

874
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: one of the chapters titled Guilty of Sin, talking about

875
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: Dario clearly not Angel, And I handed her a copy

876
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 3: of the book and I said, read this, and I'm

877
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 3: not talking to you until after you read this. So

878
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: she kind of knew from the beginning that you were

879
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 3: serious and that he was innocent. I kind of needed

880
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,919
Speaker 3: to establish that I'm not, you know, with a guy

881
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 3: who's a murderer or attempted murderer.

882
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 5: So you know the next question I'm going to ask,

883
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 5: because you were in various different prisons at the time,

884
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 5: were stuck in one place the whole twelve years.

885
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 4: After my first prison I was in was sing sing.

886
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 4: Then after Attica and Kaiksaki and then I came home

887
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 4: from Eastern Did.

888
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 5: Any of these places have conjugal visits? Yes?

889
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 4: Yeah?

890
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 5: How often are you allowed to have.

891
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 3: At that time it was ninety every ninety days, not

892
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 3: often enough.

893
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 5: Every ninety day, four times a year?

894
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 4: Yeah?

895
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 3: Is that it?

896
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 5: Yeah? Every three months.

897
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: And as wonderful as those things are, and everybody, oh,

898
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 3: you're so lucky, you know, as wonderful as it is,

899
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 3: it's awful.

900
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, can you explain that? Like, what does that even

901
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 5: look like too? I mean, so you go to the prison,

902
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 5: you obviously had months of anticipation for you, even more

903
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 5: so if you're sitting there looking at four walls. At

904
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 5: least you're out doing your job and you have to

905
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 5: distract you. But you got to be so much pent up,

906
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 5: you know, and then you see each other, and I

907
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 5: mean it sounds like a really strange date speak.

908
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 4: But I mean we just felt before we even got

909
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 4: a conjugal we knew each other for a year, so

910
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 4: we got to know each other. That's one thing about

911
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 4: prison there, that's all you have time for is to

912
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 4: sit down and talk and make eye contact.

913
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 3: And there's time since Angel's been home that I've said

914
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: to him in rough moments of adjusting, especially when he

915
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 3: first came home, that I missed our visits, as crazy

916
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 3: as that might sound, but I missed the six hours

917
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 3: of just sitting and talking. Even with the trailers as

918
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 3: it's horrible. They treat the families horribly. They treat you

919
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 3: like you're a criminal. You take this horrible van and

920
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,479
Speaker 3: you go through all these gates and wires, and it's

921
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 3: not a pretty environment. I mean, it's not meant to

922
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: be a pretty environment. And you get into this trailer

923
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 3: where the door shuts. In New York they call conjugal

924
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 3: visits trailers. It's like a bungalow. It's like a little cottage.

925
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 3: They're nice inside, the door shut and you're secluded for

926
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 3: forty four hours, and then all of a sudden, the

927
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 3: horn beeps and it's over, and you're ripped away from

928
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: the person that you love, and you're thrown back on

929
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 3: this horrible, dilapidated van and dropped off in front of

930
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: the gate, and you have no contact like that again

931
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 3: with your husband. So that's what I mean when I say,

932
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 3: as wonderful as it is, it's so emotionally draining going

933
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 3: to the conjugal visit.

934
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 5: On the van.

935
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 3: It's all the wives and moms and sons and family

936
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 3: on the van going to the area in this wall

937
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 3: where the trailers are, and everybody's lively and happy and

938
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: having a good time and talking about what they're gonna

939
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 3: cook or what movies they're gonna watch, or we should

940
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 3: all barbecue together and going back. No one says one word.

941
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: Everybody's just crying.

942
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 5: It's impossible. Obviously, family hasn't been through it to imagine it.

943
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 5: But for me, even when I visit people in prison,

944
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 5: I feel terrible when I leave because they can't leave.

945
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 5: So I can get just a fraction of a sensation

946
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 5: of what that must have been like for you. Listen.

947
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm sure you know all things being equal

948
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 5: much better than not having them, obviously, but still, yeah,

949
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 5: it's a very stark thing, Like I imagine counting down

950
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 5: the minutes till the end, when you know that that

951
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 5: forty four dollars coming up, and then you're back another

952
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 5: three months. But it's a testament to both of you

953
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 5: that you managed to stay together through that, because that's

954
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 5: not an easy way to maintain a relationship under any circumstances.

955
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 5: But here you are. Now you got two great kids, right,

956
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 5: so you know that's a beautiful thing. And you're off parole,

957
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 5: so off supervision. You have a chance to fight back

958
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 5: and to finally prove your innocence and clear your name.

959
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 5: I guess some justice, get that sorry that you deserve,

960
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 5: as well as everything else that's coming to you after

961
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 5: this horrible miscarriage of justice. And I want to say

962
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 5: a miscarriage of justice was perpetrated on the people of

963
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 5: New York State as well. When you have Dario Rodriguez out,

964
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 5: they're walking the streets and other citizens being put in

965
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 5: danger as a direct result of the police just deciding

966
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 5: they don't care. I mean, they just didn't care. Said

967
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 5: they didn't care about you, they didn't care about him,

968
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 5: and they didn't care about people in the neighborhood either,

969
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 5: And they didn't care.

970
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 3: About the victim either. I mean, how much should they

971
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 3: really care about him if they weren't willing to find

972
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 3: out the true story?

973
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 5: Not at all, just another day at the office. So

974
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 5: now you went from having, in the first instance, as

975
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 5: bad of a lawyer as you could possibly have a

976
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 5: guy who literally shows up and says, yeah, I'm pretty

977
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 5: sure you're guilty, right, I mean, you're just sitting there

978
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 5: and go, wait a minute, that's not even possible except

979
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 5: in the movie. And now you literally now you literally

980
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 5: have the dream team. Literally, yes, you got. You got

981
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 5: Barry Sheck and Cima Safi. So you went from having

982
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 5: as bad a representation as almost anybody's ever had in

983
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 5: the beginning to now having the literal dream team Barry

984
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 5: Check and Cima Safi, who are obviously buried, the co

985
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 5: founder of the NISS Project, and Seemia as a senior

986
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 5: staff attorney at the Answers Project. So that's got to

987
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 5: feel pretty good to know you've got.

988
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,439
Speaker 4: Throughout this whole bad old deal. You know, there's been

989
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,399
Speaker 4: many good things that have happened as well. Now everything's bad,

990
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 4: and my wife, you know, I got two beautiful kids

991
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 4: out of that. My mother and my relationship became closer.

992
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 4: She was always there for me, sticking it out through things,

993
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 4: and thin I had some pretty good appeal lawyers. Unfortunately

994
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 4: they didn't have a gut defense lawyer. But you know,

995
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 4: Claudia True was wonderful and trying to get me justice.

996
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 4: She did a wonderful job. She's an angel to me.

997
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 3: Mary Pollock who if it wasn't for him the project.

998
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 4: To just out of the pebrew Sky just took the case,

999
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 4: I mean, for no apparent reasons, and he believed. And

1000
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 4: and then from Barry Potter, we we we come to

1001
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 4: the to the present with Barry and Seema. So as

1002
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 4: followed representation after the fact, I've been very blessed, but unfortunately,

1003
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 4: you know, if it has come of it yet. But

1004
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's many great things.

1005
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 5: And what else do you want people to know? I mean,

1006
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 5: there's the website.

1007
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 3: Angel Cordero is Innocent dot com.

1008
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 5: There's the movie Coming Watch, which won a bunch of awards.

1009
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 4: Right then one on about three or four awards, and

1010
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 4: iron the.

1011
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 5: Movie is called Coming Coming Home.

1012
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: What the film is about is not so much about

1013
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: Angel's case. It talks about his case. Dario is featured

1014
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 3: in the film, but what it really talks about is

1015
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: what it does to the family. And that's I think

1016
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 3: what a lot of people forget. It has families apart.

1017
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 3: It ruins relationships.

1018
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 4: My daughter, my relationship, I mean, we're not even on

1019
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 4: speaking terms. It's been about a year now, and the

1020
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 4: whole time when I came home, I tried and tried

1021
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 4: and tried.

1022
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a very poignant look at how that does affect,

1023
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 5: you know, the other victims in the situation, or the

1024
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 5: family members of the people. There's so many.

1025
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,879
Speaker 4: Yeah's not just one person I'm doing the time, it's

1026
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 4: sometimes a whole family.

1027
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,879
Speaker 5: Especially if it's you, it's your son or daughter. I mean,

1028
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 5: it's hard enough on your parents, brothers, sisters, but for

1029
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 5: son or daughter, I'm sure they don't know what to think.

1030
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 5: And it's just a tragedy all the way around. But

1031
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 5: you know, the good news is you're here, Michelle's here.

1032
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 5: You got a lot of good people that care about you,

1033
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 5: that are fighting for you. Lucky that way, and I

1034
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 5: do believe that justice. You know, it's been terribly delayed,

1035
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 5: but it's not going to be denied, not with that team.

1036
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 5: And hopefully people will learn from listening to you and

1037
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 5: learning about your case about how these things happen, and

1038
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 5: you know, maybe we'll be able to prevent future future

1039
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 5: wrongful convictions. And now, in keeping with our tradition, here

1040
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 5: at Wrongful Conviction, I think this is probably people's favorite

1041
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 5: part of the show. This is where I step back.

1042
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 5: I like to let our guests have the last word.

1043
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 5: And just share anything else that's on your mind, anything

1044
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 5: you want the audience to hear. And Michelle, let's start

1045
00:49:59,120 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 5: with you.

1046
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 3: The victim of this stabbing was a victim, but Angels

1047
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 3: also a victim. His family's a victim, his daughter's a victim.

1048
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 3: There's a lot more victims than just the guy sitting

1049
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 3: in the defendant chair with a wornful conviction.

1050
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 5: Angel, what are your thoughts, anything else you have to

1051
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 5: share with the audience.

1052
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,479
Speaker 4: I'm surprised that I'm not exonerated yet. By this time,

1053
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 4: I thought I wouldn't have to deal with this issue anymore.

1054
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 4: I've always been hopeful that one person will finally in

1055
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 4: his heart to tell the truth, and that would be

1056
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 4: the victim himself, Jason Mercardo, because I know in his heart,

1057
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,959
Speaker 4: I know for one hundred percent fact that he knows

1058
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 4: it wasn't me. That would be a dream for him

1059
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 4: to come forward and finally give me my overlong due justice.

1060
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 5: My last question, what do you want your young children

1061
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 5: to know? If they're ever listening to this years from now,

1062
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 5: maybe someday they get a chance to hear it, what

1063
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 5: would you say to them about this whole situation?

1064
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 4: Then they made life after that worthwhile, Evan, that's it.

1065
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 4: It was all worth it, and I would do it

1066
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 4: all over again. I find you that I was going

1067
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 4: to get the same, the same two kids waiting for

1068
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 4: me at the end of the tunnel.

1069
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 5: Well, I got nothing to say after that except for

1070
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 5: I just want to thank both of you for coming

1071
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 5: here and being so brave and sharing this incredible saga.

1072
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 5: It's not over yet and I hope we'll get a

1073
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 5: chance to celebrate together. And so to everyone listening, thank

1074
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 5: you for tuning in. And I want to thank you

1075
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 5: Michelle Cordero, an Angel Cordero, thank you for coming in

1076
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 5: and sharing your story.

1077
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 4: Thank you for allowing it's a story. Thank you, pig to.

1078
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 5: Us, don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever

1079
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 5: you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a

1080
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 5: proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope

1081
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 5: you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and

1082
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 5: helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project

1083
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 5: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

1084
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 5: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

1085
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 5: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

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Speaker 5: time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

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Speaker 5: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

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Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a

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Speaker 5: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal

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Speaker 5: Company Number one