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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridgeton and this is

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Speaker 1: there Are No Girls on the Internet. Friday, March eighth

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Speaker 1: is International Women's Day, and here at there are No

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Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. We're celebrating by taking part in

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Speaker 1: Iheartradios Women Take the Mic initiative. International Women's Day has

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Speaker 1: always kind of meant a lot to me. It is

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Speaker 1: so important to me to be honoring and lifting up

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Speaker 1: women all over the world, and I think this year

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Speaker 1: I'm doing that while also really wrestling with the fact

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Speaker 1: that women both here in the United States but especially globally,

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Speaker 1: are facing a lot right now. You know, in times

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Speaker 1: of war in conflict, we know that it is always

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Speaker 1: women that really bear the brunt, and I guess that's

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Speaker 1: just sort of weighing very heavy on my mind as

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Speaker 1: I reflect on what International Women's Day means to me

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Speaker 1: this year, I do also just want to take a

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Speaker 1: moment to honor the women who have supported me and

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Speaker 1: helped me to get where I am today. You know,

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Speaker 1: I know that I would not be doing any of

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Speaker 1: what I am doing if not for the women that

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Speaker 1: came before me. You'll hear a bit more about that

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Speaker 1: later in this episode. But the woman that I kind

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Speaker 1: of modeled my career after was the late Great Gweneifel,

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Speaker 1: a journalist and correspondent on PBS. Gweneifel was the first

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Speaker 1: woman to host a nationally televised US public affairs program

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Speaker 1: with Washington Weekend Review. I actually have a picture of

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Speaker 1: her hanging on my fridge right now. My parents always

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Speaker 1: watched her on PBS, and when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: it was the first time that I saw a black

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Speaker 1: woman have this big career on television, and I always wondered, Wow,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if I could do that too someday. You know,

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Speaker 1: she really had the quintessential big career that I always

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Speaker 1: wanted for myself.

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Speaker 2: Like she did it all.

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Speaker 1: She moderated presidential debates. In fact, in February of twenty sixteen, Gweneifel,

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Speaker 1: alongside Judy Woodruff, became the first team of women to

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Speaker 1: moderate a Democratic residential debate, moderating the debate between Hillary

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Speaker 1: Clinton and Bernie Sanders. You know, some little girls dream

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Speaker 1: of being president, while I did not dream of being president.

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Speaker 1: I dreamt of being the woman who asks the person

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Speaker 1: who wants to be president, hard questions on television and

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Speaker 1: I might not ever have a big career like Gwen Eifels,

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Speaker 1: but she really inspired me to want to ask questions

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Speaker 1: and challenge myself and others. As women, we should be

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Speaker 1: seeing ourselves reflected in government, politics, media, journalism, culture, art,

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Speaker 1: and every other place where decisions are being made, including

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Speaker 1: the White House. NBC's Ali Vattally has been covering elections

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Speaker 1: from the campaign trail for years. Her book Electable, Why

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Speaker 1: America Hasn't put a woman in the White House dot

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Speaker 1: dot dot Yet takes a sweeping look at one of

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Speaker 1: the lingering questions of American elections. At a time when

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Speaker 1: more women have run for president of the United States

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Speaker 1: than ever before in our history? Will we ever see

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Speaker 1: a woman president? Alie and I have been friends for years,

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Speaker 1: and I hope that you'll enjoy our conversation about women

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Speaker 1: and our White House ambitions throughout history as much as

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Speaker 1: I did. So Allie, you have been covering the campaign

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Speaker 1: trail pretty much like since I've known you so for Yes,

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Speaker 1: what has that been like for you?

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Speaker 3: It has been like, I don't know, six or seven

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Speaker 3: years now straight of just traveling from Iowa to New Hampshire, Nevada, Florida,

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Speaker 3: everywhere in between, constantly just following candidates for Republicans, Democrats, midterms, presidentials.

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Speaker 3: We do it all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, one of the big questions I have

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Speaker 1: for you is, having done this for so long, what

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Speaker 1: changes have you seen in the way that we talk

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Speaker 1: about candidates, especially women, people from marginalized backgrounds, Like, have

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Speaker 1: you seen a change since the beginning of your time

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Speaker 1: doing this to now?

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Speaker 2: Gosh?

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Speaker 3: I hope it's changing for the better. I think it's

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Speaker 3: changing for the better, in large part because I think

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Speaker 3: that media is more comfortable calling out sexism and racism.

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Speaker 3: There's not necessarily any more this knee jerk reaction to

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Speaker 3: both sides things that just shouldn't be both sides. So

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Speaker 3: I look at it, especially through the lens of someone

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Speaker 3: like Hillary Clinton. Right in two thousand and eight, the

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Speaker 3: media ecosystem didn't necessarily know how to deal with a

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Speaker 3: moment about like are you likable enough? Hillary?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Remember that moment on the debate stage with Barack Obama

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Speaker 3: or in New Hampshire. Everyone remembers the Obama piece of

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Speaker 3: that moment, and he's got a little bit of criticism

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Speaker 3: for that but few people remember the fact that it

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Speaker 3: was a media moderator who teed that moment up by

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Speaker 3: asking Hillary Clinton, voters say that you are qualified, but

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Speaker 3: they say that you're not likable, how would you reassure

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Speaker 3: them as if likability is something that you need to

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Speaker 3: be president, it's nice to have, But like I don't

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Speaker 3: think you need to be president if you're only if

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Speaker 3: you're a likable person. So people forget that, and I

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Speaker 3: think that we have come further, thankfully in the decade

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Speaker 3: since that moment, or less than a decade since that moment,

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Speaker 3: at least not asking those questions anymore. But the thing

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Speaker 3: about sexism, then you know this is it's persistent. If

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Speaker 3: it's not likability, it becomes something else. And I would

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Speaker 3: argue that in twenty twenty, likability became electability. And that's

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Speaker 3: sort of the whole premise of my book, and that's

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Speaker 3: really where I start out. The whole thesis is that

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Speaker 3: it's fair to want a candidate who's electable, who can win,

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Speaker 3: because everyone wants to pick a winner. And certainly in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, every single Democratic voter that I talked to

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Speaker 3: just so badly wanted to pick the person who could

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Speaker 3: beat Trump. But the thing about electability is no one

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Speaker 3: knows who can actually win until voters vote, and so

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Speaker 3: it's really where you assigning your benefit of the doubt.

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Speaker 3: And I think the upshot of the book is in

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Speaker 3: a whole bunch of different ways we give mail candidates

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Speaker 3: much more benefit of the doubt than we do female candidates.

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating. The book is fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Can can you talk us through some of the ways

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Speaker 1: that you see this playing out for women, that women

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Speaker 1: are not given the benefit of the doubt the way

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Speaker 1: that men are, Because yeah, I could think of some

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Speaker 1: recent male presidents who I might say were not the

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Speaker 1: most likable, and yet it didn't stop them from getting

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Speaker 1: to the White House.

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Speaker 3: I mean the first person that I thought of was

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump because I would go out on the campaign trill.

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Speaker 3: I covered him in the twenty sixteen election and his

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Speaker 3: first year and a half in the White House, and

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Speaker 3: what voters would say to me all the time was,

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Speaker 3: I don't like him. I don't like the way he talks,

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Speaker 3: I don't like the way he acts towards people. But

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Speaker 3: I also like that he says what is on his mind.

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Speaker 3: And I also like that he tells it how it is.

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Speaker 3: But I like the policies. I like the judges. They

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Speaker 3: found ways to rationalize the fact that they didn't like him,

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Speaker 3: but he was strong and they wanted him to be president.

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Speaker 3: And with women, what a study that I point to

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Speaker 3: in my book has found is that it's not just oh,

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Speaker 3: nice to be like everyone wants to be liked. It

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Speaker 3: impacts the way that people won't vote for female candidates

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Speaker 3: because in the case of someone like Trump, voters will

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Speaker 3: vote for a man that they don't like, but they

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Speaker 3: are less likely to vote for a woman who they

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Speaker 3: don't like. And so it's not just nice.

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Speaker 4: To have You have to have it.

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Speaker 3: You have to be likable, but then you also have

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Speaker 3: to be strong. And the moment that I come back

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Speaker 3: to a lot from twenty twenty was this seminal moment

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Speaker 3: on the debate stage in January of twenty twenty in Iowa,

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Speaker 3: were like two weeks from caucus. All of us are exhausted,

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Speaker 3: heavily caffeinated, room of reporters, everyone on stage is very

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Speaker 3: on edge, all of the candidates because there's just been

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Speaker 3: this leaked meeting that happened between Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you remember this where Bernie allegedly said to

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth Warren, I don't think a woman can win the presidency,

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Speaker 3: or I don't think a woman can win the presidency

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Speaker 3: against Trump, and Elizabeth Warren, surprise surprise, disagreed with bot

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Speaker 3: promise as a woman who was going to try to

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Speaker 3: be a woman who took on Trump. And they get

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Speaker 3: on this debate stage and I'm covering the Warren campaign,

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Speaker 3: and they feel like she's on the record telling her

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Speaker 3: side of the story, and no one is believing her.

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Speaker 3: And so she goes forward and tries to take this

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Speaker 3: moment and make it into one that's like a big

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Speaker 3: electability argument. Here's why Elizabeth Warden can win. And she says,

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Speaker 3: of all the people that are on this stage right now,

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Speaker 3: and she's next to Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders and

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Speaker 3: Pete budajigj and Amy Klobashar is the only other woman

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Speaker 3: up there. She says, of all the people on this

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Speaker 3: stage right now, only two of us have won all

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Speaker 3: of our elections, me and Amy Klobashar. And that's the

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Speaker 3: reaction that Klobashar had. She's like laughing, chuckling at her

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Speaker 3: podium because she knows it's right, and everyone else is

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Speaker 3: just up there stoically nodding. And it's a proof point.

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Speaker 3: That's a way that you can prove the unprovable, which

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Speaker 3: is like, I know, you don't know who's gonna win.

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Speaker 3: Come I will talk this day in twenty twenty, but

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Speaker 3: I can tell you that every other time I've been

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Speaker 3: on a ballot, everyone's voted for me, and up to

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Speaker 3: the point that I've won. Same with Amy Klobashar. The men,

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Speaker 3: they don't get to say that. Joe Biden, he ran

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Speaker 3: for president twice before he ran twenty twenty. He didn't

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Speaker 3: win any states outright then they were failed presidential campaigns,

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Speaker 3: and yet he was the guy who had the air

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Speaker 3: of electability around him in twenty twenty, in large part

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Speaker 3: because he was a moderately positioned white male of a

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Speaker 3: certain age. And so that's a moment that I look

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Speaker 3: at it and I'm like, this is the seminole moment

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Speaker 3: where you look at electability as both an important metric

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Speaker 3: and also a very heavily gendered one. And part of

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Speaker 3: the reason I wanted to tackle it in this book

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Speaker 3: is because in the media environment, especially in cable. We

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Speaker 3: are moving forward so quickly, doing live shots every hour

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Speaker 3: on the hour, and you don't always get the chance

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Speaker 3: to unpack things through a gender lens, a race lens.

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Speaker 3: You are solely looking at it sometimes through a horse

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Speaker 3: race lens. And I really wanted to be able to

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Speaker 3: go back over this campaign, especially because all of us

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Speaker 3: were stopped in twenty twenty right after Warren dropped out

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Speaker 3: because of the pandemic. I wanted to be able to

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Speaker 3: go back over it with a heavy gender lens and

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Speaker 3: try to explain what's unquantifiable, which is that gender really

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Speaker 3: plays a role here. You can't put a percentage on it,

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Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean that it's not there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I so, first of all, I just you probably get

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Speaker 1: this a lot, or maybe you don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I get so fed up with the kind of reporting

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Speaker 1: that only frames things as a horse race, like who's

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Speaker 1: going to come out ahead? Because I do think that

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Speaker 1: can be important, but it doesn't really tell us a

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Speaker 1: lot about where we are as a people, what we

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Speaker 1: care about, what we're thinking about when you're just thinking about.

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Speaker 2: It as like who's gonna win.

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Speaker 1: I think so much of the nuance about things like identity, gender,

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Speaker 1: race gets lost. But we know these things are so

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Speaker 1: salient in our world and in our society. So thank you,

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Speaker 1: like from the bottom of my heart, for like actually

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Speaker 1: doing the work of trying to shade in some of

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Speaker 1: that nuance.

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Speaker 2: It is so easily lost when we talk about politics.

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Speaker 3: But I also think that that's what people are hungry for,

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Speaker 3: right Like people are very tuned in right now. That

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Speaker 3: is one of the biggest out growths I think of

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Speaker 3: the Trump era is the fact that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who might have been casual or non political people

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Speaker 3: have started to tune in in a little bit more

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Speaker 3: of a consistent way. And I recognize that there's a

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Speaker 3: ton of fatigue out there right now, but I think

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Speaker 3: that's also why it's important to put things in context

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Speaker 3: for people and to explain, like, Okay, this one thing

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Speaker 3: happened over here, but it's connected to these ten things

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Speaker 3: that happened over here, and oh, by the way, the

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Speaker 3: thing that runs under the lens of all of them

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Speaker 3: is gender, or is race, or is something else. And

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Speaker 3: I think that that's really important. Right if you're going

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Speaker 3: to get to be an expert in something, you should

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Speaker 3: be able to talk about all the different prongs of it,

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Speaker 3: and so I think it's a real privilege to be

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Speaker 3: able to explain politics through all of those lenses, not

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Speaker 3: just who's going to win, even though you and I

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Speaker 3: both know elections have consequences. Sure, But like I do

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Speaker 3: think one of the positive things about twenty twenty was

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Speaker 3: you had candidates who were running who were putting policy

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Speaker 3: at the forefront. The fact that Elizabeth Warren's tagline was

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Speaker 3: I have a plan for that wasn't necessarily just about policy,

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Speaker 3: though she loves policy, Like these people love policy, let

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Speaker 3: me tell you, they love the policy. And also, like

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Speaker 3: as someone who's read many of those policy memos, they

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Speaker 3: know their stuff. I mean, many of the policy priorities

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Speaker 3: that she put forward ended up being the nuts and

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Speaker 3: bolts of like the larger Democratic platform once the primary

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Speaker 3: was over. But it was also a way for her

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Speaker 3: to show expertise, and that's really important for women when

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Speaker 3: they are running as well. So like you had candidates

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Speaker 3: who were trying to lean in not just to the

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Speaker 3: horse race, but who were trying to steer the conversation

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Speaker 3: to a policy place as well, and that helps too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk a bit about that because

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Speaker 1: you talked about the amazing moment of Warren being like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we've won all of our races the women on the stage.

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Speaker 1: Did you think when I think about all the different

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Speaker 1: stereotypes and negative misconceptions about women as leaders, I think

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Speaker 1: that's and you and I will probably rattle off a

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Speaker 1: bunch of them, but I think that one that we

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Speaker 1: used to see a lot of is like, oh, women

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Speaker 1: are not competent, And part of me feels like it

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Speaker 1: has ping gotten to a place where it's like women

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Speaker 1: are competent, but like, yeah, she has to be competent,

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Speaker 1: but also nice about it. Like I almost wonder if,

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Speaker 1: like the if like the stereotype has kind of evolved

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Speaker 1: to continue to oppress women and not allow us to

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Speaker 1: be the leader, the effective leaders that you and.

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Speaker 2: I know that we can be.

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Speaker 1: But also it's like, oh, yeah, you can't just be

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Speaker 1: a woman who has a plan for everything.

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Speaker 2: You also have to be like demurror about it.

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Speaker 3: You need to be nice about it. It's like I

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Speaker 3: have a plan for everything, but no worries if not,

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Speaker 3: you know, but I do think so. First of all,

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Speaker 3: the good news is that any like polling or bias

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Speaker 3: research that's out there shows that thankfully, public opinion has

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Speaker 3: shifted on this idea of female competency, like there is

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Speaker 3: now and I point to this in my book, like

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Speaker 3: people think that men and women are as competent as

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Speaker 3: each other. So yay for very obvious progress. It should

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Speaker 3: have never had to be progressed too. But I also

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Speaker 3: talk in the book about this idea, and I'm actually

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Speaker 3: sure that you feel this too, Like the idea of

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Speaker 3: being called a smart girl is something that I dig

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Speaker 3: into in my book because it's something that I've been called.

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Speaker 3: But it's an example of like words that are coded

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Speaker 3: that like, if you are female, you know what it's

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Speaker 3: like to have something said to you that kind of

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Speaker 3: sounds like a compliment, but like isn't actually a compliment.

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Speaker 3: And it's one of the things that I dive into

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Speaker 3: in the book in relation to how we talk about

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Speaker 3: female candidates, because you're right, there's almost an apology that

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Speaker 3: has to come after you assert yourself, or after you

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Speaker 3: show how smart you are, or after you actively pursue

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Speaker 3: the goal that you're trying to go towards. And there's

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Speaker 3: a great op ed that came up during the twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty race that said something to the effect of, you know,

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Speaker 3: she's the most beautiful woman in the world, but also

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Speaker 3: she's very ugly. She's you know, she holds it, she

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Speaker 3: knows how to shoot a gun, but also she's never

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Speaker 3: held a gun. Like all of these random examples that

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Speaker 3: the author gave, and the final one I thought really

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Speaker 3: was a gut punch because it was she wants to

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Speaker 3: be president, but she'd never run for it. And that's

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Speaker 3: almost what we demand in women, is like, we want

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Speaker 3: you to assert yourself, we want you to try, we

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Speaker 3: want you to be the best. You should strive to

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Speaker 3: be the best, but also don't make anyone feel uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: that you're in your pursuit of doing those things. And

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Speaker 3: that's you know, I think that's something that women who

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Speaker 3: are listening to this and who have been in these

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Speaker 3: spaces that are still so male dominated. I think that's

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Speaker 3: something that a lot of people resonate with. And it's

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Speaker 3: part of why I think that the more diverse your

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Speaker 3: newsroom gets, the better you'll be it calling out the

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Speaker 3: narratives when they start against female candidates. And also you

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Speaker 3: won't fall into those traps in the first place, at

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Speaker 3: least I hope not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, that is a gut punch, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like I really saw it with Vice President Harris. I

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Speaker 1: remember reading someone saying like, oh, she's really like the

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Speaker 1: insult that they gave them. They didn't they didn't come

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Speaker 1: out and say that it was an insult, but we

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Speaker 1: can read between the lines. It's like, Oh, she's ambitious,

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Speaker 1: she really wants to be president. And it's like, do

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Speaker 1: you think that the men on stage like accidentally filled

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Speaker 1: out their paperwork to run for president and they don't

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Speaker 1: actually want it.

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Speaker 2: It was just some big mistake and now they're.

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Speaker 3: On stage day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, of course she wants to be president.

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Speaker 1: That's the point. Everybody on that stage wants to be president.

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Speaker 1: That's the point. The fact that it is lobbed at women,

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Speaker 1: coded as an insult or coded is like, this is

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Speaker 1: why you shouldn't trust them, because they have high end,

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Speaker 1: they have high ambitions for themselves, and they want power

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Speaker 1: and they want visibility and they're making themselves big, and

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Speaker 1: that's something that is to be distrustful of if you

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Speaker 1: are a woman or a person, or like a woman

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Speaker 1: or a woman of color in particular, Like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't see that same thing lobbed at men, even though,

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Speaker 1: of course they want to be president.

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Speaker 2: Of course they're ambitious.

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Speaker 3: Yep, exactly. And that was the word of the vice

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Speaker 3: presidential deepstakes, if you remember, right, Biden says he's going

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Speaker 3: to pick a woman. A bunch of really amazingly qualified

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Speaker 3: women get put on both the public list that the

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Speaker 3: media likes to make but also the campaign's list, and

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Speaker 3: it's everyone from Stacy Abrams to Kamala Harris, to Elizabeth Warren,

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Speaker 3: to Amy Klobashard to Val Deming's, Tammy Duckworth, Gretchen Witmer,

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Speaker 3: all of these really amazing women that showcase just how

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Speaker 3: much work Democrats have put in to filling the pipeline

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Speaker 3: with really good talent and diverse talent, and all of

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Speaker 3: them going forward and voicing the fact that they want

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Speaker 3: to be vice president, raising their hand and saying, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I would do that job and I would be good

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Speaker 3: at it. And here's why that got turned into, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: they're ambitious, and now we're back to those words that

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Speaker 3: sound like they should be compliments, but really they're not.

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Speaker 3: And that was I think one of the things that

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Speaker 3: felt particularly gendered about process that shouldn't have had gender

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Speaker 3: perpolating behind it. At all was the vice presidential beepstakes,

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Speaker 3: and that word ambition just reared its head in such

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Speaker 3: a negative way. But I think the silver lining to

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Speaker 3: it was that what we saw happen was Democratic groups

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Speaker 3: formed this whole group of you know, strategists and operatives

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Speaker 3: and Emily's Lists and other groups that have been working

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Speaker 3: to elevate women across politics. They formed we have her Back,

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Speaker 3: and you watched it happen. When they would do live shots,

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Speaker 3: they would be asked, Okay, you know who's better suited

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Speaker 3: to be vice president? Karen Bass Kamala Harrison And instead

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Speaker 3: of comparing, contrasting, tearing one down to elevate the other.

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Speaker 3: I watched Valerie Jarrett do this time and again on MSNBC.

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Speaker 3: She would say, well, Karen Bass would be a great

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Speaker 3: choice for X y Z reason, Kamala Harris would be

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Speaker 3: a great choice for ABC reason, and they would both

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Speaker 3: be amazing vice president. Period. They did not say anything,

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Speaker 3: and they did not pit these women against each other.

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Speaker 3: That's not to say that it didn't happen, because politics

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Speaker 3: is still politics, but when it came down to it,

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Speaker 3: you watch democratic women, especially try not to make this

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Speaker 3: seem like a cat fight. And I think that was

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Speaker 3: a really big silver lining that makes it better going forward.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, Kamala Harris has been a really fascinating person

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Speaker 3: rising to the role of vice president because her ambition

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Speaker 3: and having run for president beforehand, which by the way,

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden did right before he got to be vice president.

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Speaker 3: That's somehow being held against.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: At our back.

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Speaker 1: For women, both in politics or government or just professional

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Speaker 1: women in general.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that you get this as a journalist.

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Speaker 1: I think that we have this this cultural attitude that

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Speaker 1: effort is bad, Like if people can see the effort,

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Speaker 1: that's no good.

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Speaker 2: It's supposed to look effort.

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Speaker 1: You're supposed to like you don't really want it, and

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Speaker 1: that you know, if you're good at something, it's just happenstance,

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Speaker 1: it's just natural. Like I've never had a gun before,

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Speaker 1: but I'm great at shooting a gun. Like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think work, we're told as women that you have to

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Speaker 1: hide all of the inner machinations that make you ambitious,

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Speaker 1: that make you show up as a professional person who

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Speaker 1: wants to achieve things and and you know, have a

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Speaker 1: big flashy career or a big flashy life or something

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Speaker 1: I think it's I think it goes back to this

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Speaker 1: like cultural attitude that we are not supposed to see

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Speaker 1: that from women, and when we do, we don't like

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Speaker 1: it and we have to like ding it down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know what, like to the extent

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Speaker 3: that we can as individuals, like we have to lift

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Speaker 3: up the work, right, Like I do feel like we're

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Speaker 3: in a period where I think it's like all of us,

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Speaker 3: Like I look at my girlfriends who are hard workers.

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Speaker 3: They strive for their goals, they reach for them, Like

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Speaker 3: I am definitely someone who tries hard. I will I

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Speaker 3: will say that openly. I do my research when a

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Speaker 3: story is breaking. For example, when I knew that Speaker

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Speaker 3: Pelosi was going to be making an announcement about her

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Speaker 3: future plans, the first thing I did was pick up

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Speaker 3: a book that I had read about Pelosi six months

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Speaker 3: ago that I didn't remember every detail of. But I

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Speaker 3: was like, okay, how can I scan for the fine

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Speaker 3: points that I had marked off the pages on, Like

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Speaker 3: it's okay to do your research, like to anyone who's listening,

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Speaker 3: Like I would never be able to show up on

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Speaker 3: television every day and know random facts about the legislative

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Speaker 3: push that Nancy Pelosi made in two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 3: just off the top of my head. You have to

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Speaker 3: work at it. And I actually think the more that

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Speaker 3: we normalize that for other women, the harder it becomes

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Speaker 3: to ding people for working hard and for showing up

435
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 3: and being smart. And you know, we can kind of

436
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 3: take that back. Like, I do want to believe that

437
00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 3: that power is within us. So I'm not willing to

438
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 3: seed the space to the patriarchy on that one for

439
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 3: me or for anyone else, like who's running for president

440
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 3: or who's just like you know, going about their day

441
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 3: trying to be the best version of themselves.

442
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it.

443
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: Goes back to what you were saying about the we

444
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 1: Have Her Back coalition, you know, I do think that.

445
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, I hate that it's

446
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: kind of on us as individuals to combat this this

447
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: stigma that I think is like highly institutional and systemic.

448
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: But I do think like modeling how you can talk

449
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: about other women who are ambitious and like not not

450
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 1: give not give people thought her to be like ooh,

451
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: catfide or like ooh like you know. So I work

452
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: for a gender justice organization, Ultra Violet, and we have

453
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,919
Speaker 1: a norm where even if we're talking about a woman

454
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 1: that we don't like or that we don't agree with her,

455
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: our values don't align. We think she's like not good

456
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: for the country or whatever. As a lawmaker, we don't

457
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: call her unqualified, we don't call there are certain things

458
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: that we don't call her or that we will never

459
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 1: like even imply because it. It adds to this. It

460
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: adds to this the.

461
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: Stigma that I think holds us all down. That's with it.

462
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: And so even if we're saying like, oh, this woman,

463
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 1: we don't like her, if we say that she's unqualified

464
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: or this or that or this, that can come back

465
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: to get us. Because we're all women and all of

466
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: our oppression is really linked in that way. We're just

467
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: we're just adding fuel to that fire to have somebody

468
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: be able to lob that at another woman and keep

469
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: her down.

470
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,479
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, so much of this is systemic too. Like

471
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 3: I always think about the idea of a lot of

472
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 3: my friends, I feel this way a lot, the idea

473
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 3: of imposter syndrome, and really that almost puts the onus

474
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: on us, like it's our fault that we don't feel

475
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 3: like we are qualified enough or that we are taking

476
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 3: up space in the right way, and really like the

477
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,719
Speaker 3: owners should be on the systems in which we are operating,

478
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 3: because I can guarantee that every single one of my

479
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 3: friends who has the feeling of being an impostor in

480
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 3: the spaces that they're in, that's not the case. They

481
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 3: are more than qualified to be there. Their voice should

482
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: be value there. It's the systems that we need to

483
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 3: push back on and the systems that need to stop

484
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: making us feel like we are outsiders to them. So

485
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 3: I think that that's really important. It's not fair that

486
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 3: we have to reshape these structures, but that's sort of

487
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 3: the onus that we have right now, whether it's fair

488
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 3: or not.

489
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's like, that's the trip of

490
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 1: living in a patriarchal society. I guess it's like it

491
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't be on us, but it is, and like it's

492
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: like part of the work, part of showing.

493
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 3: Up in and what a trip it is, and.

494
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: What a trip it is.

495
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 3: But you know what you bring us something that's so

496
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 3: interesting too, because there is in the book, I do

497
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: explore a lot about democrats, in large part because six

498
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 3: of them ran for president in twenty twenty but I

499
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 3: also talk about Republicanism and gender and identity, and there's

500
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: a really fascinating thing happening on the Republican side right

501
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: now where they are electing more women, but the groups

502
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 3: that exist on the Republican side to try to get

503
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: more women in their pipeline. Thankfully, now there's a recognition

504
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 3: among Republicans that women can run in really tight races.

505
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 3: They're a large part of the reason that they flipped

506
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 3: so many seats in twenty twenty. A lot of the

507
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 3: competitive seats this cycle had women running in them on

508
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: the Republican side especially, So all of those things are true,

509
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 3: but they're having a kind of debate about can we

510
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: call other women unqualified or unviable? And they're having it

511
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: because of people like Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Bobert

512
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 3: who have embraced non reality and who have embraced conspiracy

513
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 3: theories and elections in nihilism, and it's a party that

514
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 3: the whole It's the thing that the whole Republican Party

515
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 3: is dealing with right now, like the role of Trump,

516
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 3: the role of elections in nihilism, the role of the

517
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 3: fringe of the party. They're all figuring it out right now.

518
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: But when it comes to women, I've watched these women's

519
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 3: group try to draw the line by using words like

520
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: we only endorse viable female candidates, or we only endorse

521
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 3: qualified female candidates. They're trying to make that delineation because

522
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: they think that some of the women who have risen

523
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 3: to popularism in recent years and months are not qualified

524
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: and should not be indicative of the kind of Republican

525
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 3: women serving. So it's fascinating that those are one of

526
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,479
Speaker 3: the words that you guys think about actively, because in

527
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 3: watching it on the Republican side, that's one of the

528
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 3: words that they use as sort of like a line

529
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 3: of demarcation, like we only support serious candidates, which is

530
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 3: to say they don't support the conspiracy theorists, and like

531
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 3: that's a line that needs to be drawn in Republican

532
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: politics right now. But it's fascinating the way that they're

533
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: drawing that's so interesting.

534
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: And it's like, I mean, especially coming out of mid terms,

535
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: where people are like, oh, there's going to be a

536
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: bad way, and I would say that like people kind

537
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: of rejected that like election denihilism vibe. But I think

538
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: people kind the voters kind of were like, no, thank you.

539
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: And I do think like figuring a it's interesting how

540
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: they're they're using these I don't know if euphemisms is

541
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 1: the right word, but using these ways to draw a

542
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: lot in the sand and to like explain like, oh,

543
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: these are the kind of candidates that we're looking to

544
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: support and uplift, not these other ones.

545
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 2: They're not gonna they're not gonna come out.

546
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: And say we don't want to, you know, get in

547
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: bed with an election denial of denial candidate or a

548
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory candidate. But like the way that they're using

549
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: language is sort of like, but you know what we're

550
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: trying to say, you know.

551
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well well, and some of them will say that,

552
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: I mean, some of the women that I talk to

553
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: and quote in the book will say that is not

554
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: the kind of a female candidate that we want to

555
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: put our money behind, to put our resources behind, to

556
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: help out of primaries. And I specifically say to help

557
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: out of primaries because a large part of the reason

558
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: that groups are so important in elevating female candidates and

559
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 3: people of color, basically anyone who's non white and non male.

560
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: The reason it's important is because they're operating in structures

561
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 3: that are just tilted against them, Like, this is a

562
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: system the end of the day. It was built by men,

563
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 3: built by white men, for white men, to keep power

564
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: for white men. So anyone who's not that is already

565
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: kind of going against the system as it was built.

566
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: But in primaries is really where we see gender and

567
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: race play a role that can be counter productive to

568
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: the candidate. And that's why it's so important to focus

569
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 3: on primaries because when people get to general elections, their

570
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 3: tribal If you're a Democrat, you're probably voting Democrat. If

571
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: you're a Republican, you're probably voting a Republican. I love

572
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: independent voters, but increasingly it's a smaller and smaller slice

573
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 3: of the pie. And so that's why the focus is

574
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: so important on primaries just generally, because that's really where

575
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 3: the dynamics are. It's not as tribal there because you're

576
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: picking among multiple people in your own party.

577
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is going to be I'm not even really

578
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: sure how to ask this, but it fits so nicely

579
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: in the intersection of your work. There are so many

580
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: women candidates who do embrace things like election denilism and

581
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,239
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory. Are men there are a lot of men

582
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,239
Speaker 1: who do it too, but plenty of women become like

583
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: rising stars and have big platforms and big profiles on

584
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: the basis of their embracing conspiracy theory and elections nihilism.

585
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: Do you think there's something about women where when they

586
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: have embrace this ideology, it like.

587
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: Helps them more? Like what do you think is going on.

588
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 3: Well on the Republican side, Definitely, I mean, but again,

589
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 3: it's not just women on the Republican side who are

590
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 3: being forced to grapple with what I would call like

591
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: republicanism in the age of Trump. Because the more I'm out,

592
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 3: the more I hear voters who say that, like, the

593
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: word Republican doesn't mean conservative anymore of them, the word

594
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: Republican means Trump. So the party itself is going through

595
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 3: a reckoning the fact that there are women at the

596
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 3: forefront of that movement, but there are also men at

597
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: the forefront of that movement, you know, Like, I don't

598
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: know if that's necessarily a gender question, but I do

599
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 3: think that it speaks to something that Secretary Hillary Clinton

600
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 3: said to me when I was talking with her for

601
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 3: this project, which is the entire idea of electability has changed, right,

602
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 3: Like the idea, and she brought up an example, not

603
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 3: using a specific candidate, but she pointed to the Republican

604
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 3: side where she thought at one point that a woman

605
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: holding a gun prominently in a campaign ad might not

606
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: have been viewed as electable several years ago, but certainly

607
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 3: helps a woman's electability now in the Republican party. So look,

608
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: the upside of that is that we are starting to

609
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: see more kinds of women as electable. The downside is

610
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: that right now in Republican politics, it is also popular

611
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 3: to deny results of legitimate elections proffer lies to an

612
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: electorate about those elections. That's problematic from a small d

613
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 3: democracy standpoint, and that's just like a Republican thing that

614
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 3: they're dealing with right now.

615
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: Gender aside, Yeah, that is so interesting, and it's like,

616
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,959
Speaker 1: even though that's not necessarily you know, particular to gender,

617
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: I do see it as just like another way that

618
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: it can become a trap for women, right, like another

619
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: way that like it can be this tightrope that women

620
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: are expected to walk that men.

621
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 3: Just are not. Yes, yeah, well there's also something interesting

622
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 3: on the Republican side of this too, where I found

623
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: a study in my book where if you are female

624
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 3: or a person of color. And I think the study

625
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 3: was around demographic biases that may exist within conservative voters.

626
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: One of the ways that candidates of color and female

627
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: candidates can overcome any demographic biases that exist is by

628
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: being more hyper conservative. So if you're Carly Fiorina or

629
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: if you're Ben Carson, and those were some of the

630
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 3: names that were tested by in this one study their

631
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: hyper conservatism, showing that ideologically they ascribe to all aspects

632
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: of publicanism that can overcome any bias that might exist

633
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 3: because they are black or because they are female. And

634
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 3: I thought that was a really interesting study that sort

635
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: of explains why you have the rise of certain very

636
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: hyper conservative women on the right. It kind of explains

637
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 3: Sarah Palin and Marsha Blackburn and Marjorie Taylor Green and

638
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 3: Lauren Bobert, Like there at least is some explanation for

639
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 3: it because on the Republican side, otherwise they do not

640
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: want to talk about gender and identity politics. That is

641
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: like a bad word. Don't get into it, don't talk

642
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 3: as a woman, don't talk you know, they don't want

643
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: to hear that. It's just are you you know, their

644
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 3: metrics for assessing candidate viability are just different.

645
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: That is so fascinating. So I have to ask Bough.

646
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: The book is called Electable by America hasn't put a

647
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: woman in the White House dot dot dot yet, And.

648
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: That title makes me say that you are so like you.

649
00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts? Do you think we're going to

650
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 2: see a woman president in your lifetime? Our lifetime? Like?

651
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: Are you hopeful? What do you think?

652
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 3: I need to see it. We have to see it.

653
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:09,479
Speaker 3: We're gonna see it.

654
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: I thought we had our time.

655
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 4: And then then you know, I mean, look, I say yet,

656
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 4: because I need to be optimistic about this.

657
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: I do think that you have people, even Liz Cheney

658
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 3: right now, who have made the point in recent months

659
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: that men have been running things for a while and

660
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: it hasn't always gone so great. I do think that

661
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: it's time to maybe try something else. At the same time, though, too,

662
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: there have been just systemic issues with why a woman

663
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: has not been able to ascend to the White House,

664
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: And in large part it's because we haven't seen a

665
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 3: ton of women serving in elected office until like the

666
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: last forty or fifty years. And I know that sounds

667
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: like a long time, but it's actually not that long,

668
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: and women are filling the ranks of both parties so

669
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: much right now that finally there are long lists of

670
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: women who we can say, Okay, they can run for

671
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: president on the Republican side, they can run for president

672
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: on the Democrat Democratic side, to the point where I

673
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: think in twenty twenty four and twenty twenty four is

674
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 3: tough because two men still govern this process, and so

675
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 3: at a certain point it becomes a numbers game, and

676
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 3: I think that gone are the days where you're just

677
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: going to have only fields of dudes running for president.

678
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 3: There are going to be women who are running. I

679
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: also think that what Biden did by electing by choosing

680
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 3: Kamala Harris and then Kamala Harris and Joe Biden being

681
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 3: elected in twenty twenty, the fact that we have our

682
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: first female vice president is huge. Women of both parties

683
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: that I talk to for this book agree that she

684
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 3: makes it easier for those who come after her simply

685
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 3: because she goes to work being who she is every

686
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: single day, and it allows the American mindset to see

687
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 3: female leadership at its highest rungs. Quite frankly, that's also

688
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: something that Speaker Pelosi has done for this country because

689
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 3: she was elevated first. But I also think that, especially

690
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 3: if it's Biden and Harris again in twenty twenty four,

691
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: it's going to be really hard for Republicans to just

692
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: nominate another ticket that looks like Trump and Tense, that

693
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 3: just looks like two older white men. Again. I do

694
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: think that we're now in a place where gender and

695
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: diversity is an asset. And I look at it in

696
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: twenty twenty when Biden chose Harris, I mean the fact

697
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: that he had just consolidated his power, he had just

698
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: won the primary, and he comes out and he says,

699
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 3: I'm going to choose a woman. To me, it was

700
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 3: a sign that times had changed, because if you look

701
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,959
Speaker 3: at the last few times that men had selected women

702
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 3: as their running mates. We're talking about Walter Mondale in

703
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four when he chose Geraldine Ferraro and his

704
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 3: campaign was in the ten. He was not doing well.

705
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 3: He needed something that could excite his base. They thought, hey,

706
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 3: we'll do a woman, and it was sort of a

707
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: throw spaghetti at the wall kind of moment, see if

708
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 3: it sticks. It didn't, but it was also the mindset

709
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 3: the next time we saw that happen, which was on

710
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 3: the Republican side. Two thousand and eight, John McCain picking

711
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 3: Sarah Palin, shocking everybody, but the mindset was the same.

712
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 3: He was falling behind Obama in the polls. He needed

713
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 3: something to excite the base. He chose someone who was female,

714
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 3: who use the phrases like she wanted to finish the

715
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 3: work that Hillary Clinton had started. Because Clinton ran an

716
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: eight and fell short to Obama. I mean it was

717
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: very throw spaghetti at the wall. See what sticks. Now,

718
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, you have Biden purposefully choosing a woman,

719
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: saying that her gender, her lived experience, the different things

720
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 3: that she brings to the table, our assets. It's not

721
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 3: just yeah, we'll see what happens. We'll pick a woman.

722
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 3: It's no, we want to pick a woman. We want

723
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 3: to pick a woman of color. She provides us drinks

724
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: that we would not otherwise have. That is a really

725
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 3: big moment of progress and one that it's hard for

726
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: me to see not sticking. And so I do think

727
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 3: we're going to have a female president, and I do

728
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 3: think we're going to see more female vice presidents. I

729
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 3: would love to see both happen at once. That would

730
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 3: be really cool. But progress is slow, but it's coming.

731
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 3: I have to believe it.

732
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: I'm happy that you're doing this work of like modeling

733
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 1: the progress that we have made and signaling to the

734
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: progress that has yet to be made in the future.

735
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 3: You know, I do think this book came about at

736
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 3: a dark time for everybody, because the pandemic happened. I

737
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: was asked to do this book in March of twenty twenty,

738
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 3: and a week later I flew home from being on

739
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 3: the road with Biden and Ohio and Elizabeth Warren had

740
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 3: just dropped out and all of us never left our

741
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: houses again for the next few months. So it was

742
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: a dark time, and I remember the only thing that

743
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 3: I said to my editor was I don't want to

744
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: do this book. If I can't come out in a

745
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: place where I feel optimistic, I can't not find the

746
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: silver linings. I remember some of the early calls that

747
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 3: I made to some of the smartest sources that I have,

748
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 3: where I just said, make me feel good about this,

749
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 3: like it's going to happen, right, Like I feel like

750
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 3: it's going to happen. Point me to some examples that

751
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: make you feel like it's going to happen. And I

752
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 3: came out with a lot of examples, and yes, it's

753
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: important to show why it hasn't happened yet and to

754
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 3: shine a spotlight on moments where unfortunately the isms sexism, racism,

755
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 3: all of the others won out. But I think once

756
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 3: you show people that those moments have happened, once you

757
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 3: see it, you can't stop seeing it. And that's part

758
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 3: of helping this road to progress too.

759
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: That's so powerful. And Alie, I have to say, and

760
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: not to get to like sappy or whatever, but we

761
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: kind of came up in the in the sort of

762
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: political media space together, and I remember when we were

763
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: working together at MSNBC. You I can just tell that,

764
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: like you were going to be a real mover and

765
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: shaker in the space.

766
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: And so watching you like you were on the campaign trail.

767
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: You were like, I follow you on Instagram and I

768
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: see these images of you, like you know, setting up

769
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: producing like shots and setting up shots like talking like

770
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: you are in it, and watching this trajectory has been

771
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: really incredible and powerful. It's like I can't help but

772
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: wonder how many little girls, Like when I was a kid,

773
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: I used to watch Gwen Eifel on TV and be

774
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: like I could be her someday, And I wonder, like,

775
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: are you the Gwen Eifel for a new generation of

776
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: which finding their voice in political media?

777
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 2: I say yes.

778
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 3: First of all, you just gave me chills. Second of all,

779
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 3: my god, immeasurable, immeasurable goals for me to put up.

780
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: I mean, my God. But I think about it too

781
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: as like there's just more of us now, right, Like

782
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 3: there are just more women who are out there who

783
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 3: are empowered to be experts, who are empowered to ask good,

784
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 3: tough questions. I think that's good for everybody. I mean,

785
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 3: I love looking around and seeing in a scrum or

786
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: in a gaggle when I'm with a candidate, like a

787
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 3: bunch of other women around me. I think that that

788
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: is just such an amazing thing. And I love it

789
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: even more when it's a female candidate. It's the center

790
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 3: of it. But I mean, yeah, you and I both,

791
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 3: I think, have really climbed through our industries. And I

792
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 3: think about the way that we first met too. I mean, right,

793
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 3: we were doing a shoot for Liz Plank. Right, Liz

794
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: Plank brought us all together the Queen to talk about

795
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 3: hate online and like the nasty things that people said

796
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 3: to us, and it sort of brings us full circle

797
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 3: a little bit too, right, because we were there trying

798
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 3: to reclaim some of the nasty words that people were

799
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 3: throwing at us, just simply for being smart and female

800
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: and a line. Right. Thankfully, there are girls on the

801
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: internet now, right who can have each other's back and like,

802
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 3: you know, not not let that stuff just go unchecked.

803
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 3: But like that's how we met. We met by calling

804
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 3: out sexism online. And now you get to be a

805
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: proof point that like it's not just dudes in a

806
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 3: toxic environment, like it's women are here and making it better,

807
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 3: which I would argue is just happening all over.

808
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: I mentioned it at the start of the show.

809
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: But the team here at There Are No Girls on

810
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: the Internet is celebrating International Women's Day this week. For

811
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: more programming honoring the incredible women of the network and worldwide,

812
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: head to iHeart Podcasts International Women's Day feed by searching

813
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: women Take the Mic. Wherever you look for your podcasts.

814
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: We're featured along shows that I love, like Therapy for

815
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: Black Girls and others that's women.

816
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: Take the Mic.

817
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: I mean iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

818
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: Got a story about an in thing in tech, or

819
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: just want to say hi. You can reach us at

820
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

821
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

822
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

823
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland

824
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

825
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amado is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

826
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

827
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828
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