1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time for an 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: episode from the Vault. This one originally aired January thirty first, 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. And Rob, this was your interview with 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: Roman Mars of the podcast ninety nine Percent Invisible. 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Great chat, great podcast, great book. So I hope 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: everyone enjoys. 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and I have an interview for 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: you this week that I conducted with none other than 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: Roman Mars, the podcast host and author, a host of 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: the ninety nine Percent Invisible podcast asked, and co author 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: of the book The ninety nine Percent Invisible City. So 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: it was it was a real treat to set down 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: virtually with Roman Mars here and discuss ninety nine percent Invisible, 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: both the podcast and the book The ninety nine Percent 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: Invisible City, discussing podcasting in general, design in general. It's 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: a fun chat and I hope you enjoy it as 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: much as I did. Hi, Roman, Welcome to the show. 22 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much. For having me. 23 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I want to start by stating the 24 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: obvious that a lot of our listeners stuff to blrow 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: your mind, don't really need an introduction or even a 26 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: reintroduction to you and your show. But for anyone out 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: there who isn't aware, what is ninety nine percent invisible? 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: And what does the title mean? 29 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 4: Nine percent invisible is about all the thought that goes 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 4: into things most people don't think about. The idea is 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 4: that you know, even these big things like buildings that 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 4: you know, they may be massive, but the story behind 33 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 4: them is still ninety nine percent of visible. And that's 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 4: where it comes from. I was when I first started, 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 4: it sort of started as a show about architecture and design, 36 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 4: and it still is. I think design is still its mandate, 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 4: but our vision of what is designed is quite broad, 38 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 4: sort of any human made thing is designed. And so 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 4: when I first started, I gathered this collection of different 40 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 4: types of designers, a product designer, an architect, a landscape designer, 41 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 4: and asked them, like, what is the unifying theme to 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 4: what you do? And I was going to try to 43 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 4: name the show at what that was, but I didn't 44 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 4: want to use the word design For some reason. I 45 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 4: just wanted to avoid it and make something more poetic 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 4: and evocative, and they came to the conclusion that if 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 4: they're doing their jobs right, their job is ninety nine 48 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 4: percent of visible, and so that's what the show became. 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: I think I heard the show for the first time 50 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: on Radio Lab and I had to look it up 51 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: and sort of been back in twenty eleven. YEA. 52 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 4: They did this a real service by introducing this to 53 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 4: a lot of people. I mean, Jad and the folks 54 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 4: who are working on Radio Lab at the time. We 55 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 4: kind of came up together in the public radio trenches, 56 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 4: and so that was just about the time when we 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 4: started running the shows, and so I think there was 58 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 4: a little bit of a backslapping, a friendly you know, 59 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 4: helping out a brother in arms in that scenario. But 60 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 4: they did this a real good service of introducing us 61 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 4: to their audience. 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: Radio Lab always impressed me with its exceptional audio production, 63 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: its sound design. I did show that had a particular 64 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: vision for I think how sound design could be used 65 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: to help explain a topic, and I tend to think 66 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: of ninety nine percent invisible as existing, you know, within 67 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: on the same shelf. In the similar category of podcast 68 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: or radio shows. So I was wondering, like, what is 69 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: your philosophy on ninety nine percent invisible sound design? 70 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 4: Well, you know, it varies. I mean what I like, 71 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 4: like I like things to be radiophonic, which to me 72 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 4: means if you were to read a transcript of the show, 73 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 4: you wouldn't fully get what the show is trying to convey, 74 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 4: you know, like there has to be the audio element, 75 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 4: the sound of someone's voice, the sound of someone's passion, 76 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 4: you know, and then the music and you know, like 77 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 4: in a little bit of the ambient and field tape, 78 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 4: you know, tell a different story than just the words 79 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 4: being said. You know, we just do it to serve 80 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 4: the story. You know that you can definitely overdo it. 81 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 4: You can sort of call a lot of attention to 82 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 4: sound design. I think we sort of pitch it the 83 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 4: way I personally like it, Like I like a good 84 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 4: amount of music. I like switching voices, you know, like 85 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 4: I like, you know, I talk, another person talks, another 86 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 4: person talks. It keeps the ear interested. I think there's 87 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 4: some sort of there's ways that when you're conveying information, 88 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 4: varying that so that the ear doesn't get bored. And 89 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 4: then you sort of your mind drifts off is really important, 90 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 4: but we also kind of play it by ear like 91 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 4: there isn't like a huge I don't know, just like 92 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 4: a standard operating procedure or a certain mandate that we 93 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 4: when it comes to sound design. We are really talented, 94 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 4: you know, composer in Swan Reale and engineer and Martin Gonzalez, 95 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 4: and you know, they just make it beautiful and it 96 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 4: just feels good to me. It was always the show 97 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 4: I always wanted in terms of the way it sounds. 98 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: And have changes your trends in the podcasting industry affected 99 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: the way you approach things at all. 100 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 4: I don't know about the changes in podcasting. I mean 101 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 4: you to say that, I mean I like the show 102 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 4: the way it is because I think it serves the 103 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 4: way the show is. That is not to say that 104 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 4: I don't love things that aren't produced to our extent, 105 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 4: Like my my favorite podcasts are two people talking, you know, 106 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 4: like and there's something really lovely about that. And so 107 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 4: to me, there's just always like there are these different 108 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 4: trends or you know, just like buckets of podcasts that 109 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 4: do different things and do them well, and I think 110 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 4: they all can co exist kind of nicely. I mean, 111 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 4: the main thing that happened with my show is that 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 4: it was really designed for radio, Like I made it 113 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 4: for public radio. The original episodes are four minutes long 114 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 4: because they fit into a slot that would go into 115 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 4: morning edition. And then I was just like, well, I 116 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 4: guess I'll put this out as a podcast. Is whatever 117 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 4: might as well, and so we did. And then, you know, 118 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 4: and I say we, there was no Wei. It was 119 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 4: just me at this point. For many, many, many years, 120 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 4: it was just me and so, and then when it 121 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 4: started to find a life as a podcast, it was like, well, 122 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 4: let's just keep in that, like, let's make that a 123 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 4: little bit longer because I don't have to make it 124 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 4: four minutes when it becomes a podcast, and then it 125 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 4: gets it just grows and grows and grows, and it eventually, 126 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 4: you know, a switch flipped where the primary audience was 127 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 4: the podcast audience, which didn't have to adhere to sometime 128 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 4: a radio clock, and I was cutting a version for 129 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 4: the radio, and then it sort of was off to 130 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 4: the races, and they sort of now every story is 131 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 4: what it is. And so in a way, podcasting liberated 132 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 4: me from what is the constraint of like every type 133 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 4: of broadcast journalist, which is like you're basically either cutting 134 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 4: to fit a time or feeling to make a time, 135 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 4: is like a huge part of your job as a producer, 136 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 4: and I don't really do that anymore based on some 137 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 4: sort of artificial constraint. I still do that based off 138 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 4: of my taste, Like I still like things to be 139 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: tight and you know, be purposeful in their length. So 140 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 4: in that sense, podcasting really really changed and made it so, 141 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 4: like now the average show is it's like thirty five 142 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 4: forty minutes long. It's like ten times longer, Like it's 143 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 4: really it's really something. But this show has kind of 144 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 4: had its own trajectory that I don't know if it 145 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 4: really follows the fissitudes of podcasting in general, but I'm 146 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 4: sure I'm influenced by it some way. 147 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: Anytime I listened to the show or and engage with 148 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of visible content, I felt like I 149 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: leave it with my eyes just a little more open 150 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: to the design around me. Do you ever feel like 151 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: or hope that you're initiating listeners into sort of the 152 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: different understanding of the world. 153 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 4: Oh, for sure, I mean that's the ultimate goal, and 154 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 4: I know that it's effective because it's been effective with me. Like, 155 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 4: you know, I study lots of things to get to 156 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 4: where I am. I've been a journalist now for twenty years, 157 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 4: but before that, I was working on PhD and genetics. 158 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: I studied a lot of things. I didn't have a 159 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 4: real specific knowledge of design or architecture. I was just 160 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 4: a person who would like go on the architecture door 161 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 4: if I was in a city, you know. And so 162 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 4: I've always approached it as a journalist and as a fan. 163 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: And I've noticed that the show has changed me over 164 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 4: the years of making it, Like as I've told these 165 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 4: stories about all the thought that goes into things that 166 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 4: most people pass by without noticing, I've felt myself becoming 167 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 4: more sort of keenly aware of the world and how 168 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 4: it functions, and actually kind of keenly aware of how 169 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 4: well we're taken care of in the world in a 170 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 4: certain way, Like it's turned me into a more optimistic 171 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 4: person to do this show, because you know, a lot 172 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 4: of people put a lot of care into things so 173 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 4: you don't die, like pretty consistently, or so that you 174 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 4: can operate smoothly in this world. And we bump against 175 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 4: the things that are poorly designed, and we notice those 176 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 4: we don't notice the nine hund percent of visible things 177 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 4: that are so well designed that they pass our notice. 178 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 4: And so it has changed the way I view the world. 179 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 4: Making the show and what I've heard from people has 180 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 4: changed the way that they look at the world. And 181 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 4: it's super satisfying because I think it, like, it really 182 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 4: does improve your outlook of the world to think about 183 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 4: the design of things. 184 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you've been doing the show long enough that 185 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: you have listeners out there who have grown up with 186 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: the show, right, Yeah, totally. 187 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, we have someone who who works on the show now, 188 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: Jacob Molton, Amandina and her stepfather, you know, had her 189 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 4: listen to the show as a kid, you know, like 190 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 4: I think it's like junior higher high school. So yeah, 191 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 4: it's absurd. Yeah, a lot of people have grown up 192 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 4: with it and it's it's it's pretty satisfying to have them. 193 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 4: But when they show up in there in their twenties, 194 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 4: I'm blown away by that. 195 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: So now I guess on the other end of the spectrum, 196 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: you still have people coming to the podcast who are 197 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: new to it. Of course, covered so many designs topics 198 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: over the years. I wonder what your recommendation is for 199 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: people who are new to it, Like, I know, on 200 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: your website at ninety nine percent invisible dot orgue, you 201 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: have a nice explorer section that allows you to sort 202 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: of check out areas by topic, but in general, like, 203 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: do you tend to steer people towards the beginning, towards 204 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: the most recent or particular foundational episode. 205 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 4: Never in the beginning, Like I feel like when people 206 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 4: tell me that they've gone back and listened to all 207 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 4: of them, I'm like, oh, maybe I should take those 208 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 4: down because I don't know if it's worth it. But 209 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 4: I think that I mostly say to listen to the 210 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 4: most recent one. I mean, the thing about an ongoing 211 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 4: series is that no one episode can sort of encapsulate 212 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 4: what you do. What you do with an ongoing series 213 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 4: as you're telling this story over time, and it's like 214 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 4: this weird regression plot where it's like, here's an episode 215 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 4: kind of like this, and here's an episode kind of 216 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 4: like this, and then you draw a line that regression 217 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 4: plot and that is the thesis of your show. And 218 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 4: so no one point, you know, like really exemplifies that, 219 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 4: you know, especially you know, especially when you know as 220 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 4: makers you're like, well, that's like that's about an eighty 221 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: percent of what I wanted it to be, or you 222 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 4: know whatever. And so mostly I tell people to listen 223 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 4: to the latest one, and you know, we have a 224 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 4: few classics, like there's this one called Structural Integrity that 225 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 4: won a lot of awards that I think is a 226 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 4: is a good episode about you know, building almost falling down, 227 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 4: and you know, that's always exciting. And what I don't 228 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 4: want people who do is in the beginning, I think 229 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 4: it's fine to go search through things that you know 230 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 4: you're interested in and go listen to them. But almost 231 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 4: the point of the show is that we're daring you 232 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 4: with how boring the subject is. And what we're trying 233 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 4: to do is, you know, is the production is sort 234 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 4: of creating this delta between how boring an idea is 235 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: and how we're going to present it to make it 236 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 4: so that you really, really truly care about it. And 237 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 4: so don't read the description and go, nah, that's not 238 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 4: for me. Like try if you read description and go 239 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 4: that's not for me, try just one of those and 240 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 4: see if I can convince you that this is interesting 241 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 4: and applies to you in some way. That's that's the 242 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 4: main thing I want from people when they try the 243 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 4: show out. 244 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: Now I'm a little late to the party here, but 245 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: I recently picked up a copy of the book The 246 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: ninety nine Percent Invisible City that you co authored with 247 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: Kirk Colstead, and it's Yeah, it's a thoroughly enjoyable and 248 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: insightful read, you know, highlighting the details of the modern 249 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: world and get going and matching over with what you 250 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: just said, there were you know, there were certainly sections 251 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: of it that I knew that I was going to 252 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: be into, into anything dealing with say like underground infrastructure, 253 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: and like the whole section on infrastructure disguised his building 254 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: and so forth. But yeah, there's so much in it 255 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: where suddenly there'll be a section of the of the 256 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: book that is dealing with something that I completely take 257 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: for granted sometimes every day, and it's ultimately a fascinating 258 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: and eliminating topic, like like traffic circles for example. 259 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 4: Well, I mean that's the goal is that we sort 260 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 4: of like we could lure you in with some things 261 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 4: that you might be interested in, and and then we 262 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 4: sort of lull you into trying to pay attention to 263 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 4: other things. And the book was really interesting to make 264 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 4: because I've been making audio for so long, and you know, 265 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 4: I think I feel like I was approached about making 266 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 4: a book, like episode five of the podcast. There was 267 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 4: this sort of sense that books are the inevitable, like 268 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 4: I don't know, prize or something like that. I didn't 269 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 4: understand that. I just I really wanted to make a podcast, 270 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 4: and so but it took us for a long time 271 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 4: to do it. One of the reasons was, you know, 272 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 4: the partnership and making it with with Colestead required that, 273 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 4: you know, we work on it and be excited about it. 274 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 4: And then the other was like, I'm really into design, 275 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 4: like in a real sense, and to me, it's like 276 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 4: the show is designed to be a podcast, and trying 277 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 4: to you know, creating some kind of deprecated, you know, 278 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 4: transcription version of it was had no interest to me. 279 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 4: But there was a certain point where the volume of 280 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 4: the things that we covered audio is not really useful 281 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 4: for like scrubbing through and like it's experiential, but it's 282 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 4: not like, oh, I remember this thing about curb cuts. 283 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 4: What's the name of that episode and where do I 284 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 4: find it and what is it? And do I have 285 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 4: twenty minutes to listen to it? And stuff, and there 286 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 4: was just a point where all the stuff that we 287 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 4: had covered and the sort of territory we've staked out 288 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 4: of our view of the world wasn't being served by 289 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 4: linear audio anymore, and a book was kind of like 290 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 4: felt like it was natural and necessary and good. 291 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: And so. 292 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 4: That's what the book became. And so and it has 293 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 4: a lot of stuff that's from the show in it, 294 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 4: but also a lot of like new stuff that we 295 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 4: can't cover because you know, like as much as I 296 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 4: enjoy the perversity of covering a lot of visual stuff 297 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 4: in an audio medium to highlight the storiness of it 298 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 4: versus the esthetics of things, there's some things that are 299 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 4: just impossible to cover, and things like roundabouts where you 300 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 4: try to describe the magic roundabout, which is like circles 301 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 4: and circles and circles, and it's like you can kind 302 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 4: of get it, but I don't know if you can 303 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 4: really visualize it until you know, you get some pictures 304 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 4: of it. 305 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that was definitely a part of in the 306 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: book where I was very thankful for the illustration. And 307 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: there's plenty of other places where you're talking about something 308 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: and you can look at the illustration, Like, oh, yeah, 309 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: that one, that's what they're talking about. I've seen that thing, 310 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: that particular star shape or whatever the case may. 311 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 4: Be, exactly exactly. It does require a little bit of 312 00:16:58,160 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 4: a little bit of help. 313 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's interesting that it sounded like it was 314 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: kind of, I don't want to say a daunting task, 315 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: but like a task it. 316 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 4: Was hugely daunting, horrible. Yeah, it's like it's really really hard. 317 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 4: There's like there's this the saying that I heard as 318 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 4: we were making the book that was that a takeoff 319 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 4: of the teach a man to fish kind of thing. 320 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 4: Teach a manufih and then yeah, give him anifesi he 321 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 4: eats for a day, Teach a man official, he'll eat 322 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 4: for a lifetime. It's uh, give a person a book, 323 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 4: they'll read for a week. Teach a person to write 324 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 4: a book, they'll never enjoy anything for the rest of 325 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 4: their lives. So it's really really hard. But I mean 326 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 4: like curvely brought it all together. I mean in terms 327 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 4: of like the writing and the kind of organizing and 328 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 4: project managing, Like he really threw himself into it in 329 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 4: a way that it never would happened because one of 330 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 4: the problems with a really long deadline that a book 331 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 4: gives you, you know, like a year long deadline. It 332 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 4: has its own problems, but when you have a weekly 333 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 4: deadline of a show at the same time, it's it's 334 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 4: always possible to occupy yourself with the immediate deadline and 335 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 4: put off the big deadline. And so anyway, it was 336 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 4: really hard. 337 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: Well, well, like I said, the finished product is excellent, 338 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: and you covered this already. But the I guess when 339 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: one initially hears about a podcast becoming a book, it's 340 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: easy to think, well, okay, this is, like you said, this, 341 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: it's just something that had to happen. This is like 342 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: the inevitable sort of cash in or the inevitable even 343 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: evolution of the thing. But yeah, this this doesn't feel 344 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: forced at all. It's very absorbable and also very just 345 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: visually stylish. 346 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 4: Thank you. I was really obviously interested in the in 347 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 4: the visuals of it, and and our publisher was too. They, 348 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 4: you know, because it was just like you do understand that, 349 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 4: like designing, people listen to our show and if the 350 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 4: book is ugly, they will never forgive you. And they 351 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 4: sort of connected us with Patrick Vale, who is the 352 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 4: illustrator who worked on, you know, hundreds of different illustrations, 353 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 4: both big and small, to demonstrate what was going on, 354 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 4: but also just to kind of set the tone of it. 355 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 4: You know, the feel of it is is both kind 356 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 4: of like precise, but also it has a little bit 357 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 4: of an abstraction to it in some instances. And I 358 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 4: think it's a beautiful object. And you're always trying to 359 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 4: figure out what to do when you create anything, or 360 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 4: are you creating something like a theemeral and immediate or 361 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 4: you're creating like a permanent and beautiful object. And there's 362 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 4: a balance of that when it comes to audio all 363 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 4: the time, because you you could fuss over it endlessly 364 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 4: to make it a beautiful object, and you know, it's 365 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 4: kind of fleeting and ephemeral no matter what you do. 366 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 4: But when you put all the effort into a book, 367 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 4: it is like it's incumbent. I think to make it, 368 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 4: I don't know, something somewhat precious because of all these 369 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 4: just resources going into it, you know. But I'm happy 370 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 4: with it, even though it had a little bit of 371 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 4: issue to figure out of being you know, kind of 372 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 4: fish nor foul, like it isn't really a coffee table book. 373 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: It is a book. 374 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 4: Of stories. They don't have to be read all together 375 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 4: in a row, but they build on each other when 376 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 4: they are read in a row, and you kind of 377 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 4: had to serve lots of different audiences simultaneously. And again, 378 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 4: this was something that like Kurt and I had just 379 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 4: endless meetings about just the structure of the thing, independent 380 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 4: of the writing, to make it all work. So anyway, 381 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 4: I'm glad you liked it. I'm sort of going on 382 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 4: about it. 383 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: Oh no, no, this is all fascinating. I have the 384 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: physical version here, and there's a digital version, but there 385 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: is also an audiobook obviously, Yeah, yeah, there is. What 386 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: was what was that like? Then? Turning it back into. 387 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 4: It was horrible. It's like, I mean, like I've been 388 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 4: doing voiceover, you know, and narration for twenty some years 389 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 4: at this point reading an audiobook is the hardest version 390 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 4: of that, I think, even though and this is my 391 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 4: own you know, like style and in our own writing, 392 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 4: so it you know, I know the material better, but 393 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 4: even that was exhausting. I was realizing how little I 394 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 4: talk in a row, even when I record narration or 395 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 4: to do interviews. That like I was like, oh great, 396 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 4: I'll just knock out a couple of hours of reading 397 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 4: or whatever, you know, every few days. But I was 398 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 4: exhausted by it. It was so hard. And when any author, 399 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 4: and I know a fair number of authors now that 400 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 4: you know, ask me about, you know, narrating work, I'm 401 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 4: just like, unless you really want to, like, just avoid it. 402 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 4: It's really it's really hard. But you know the publishers 403 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 4: and I know the audience. They're used to the sound 404 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 4: of my voice. I think for some of them it 405 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 4: gives them a certain amount of comfort, and it seemed 406 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 4: important that it be me to read it. So I'm 407 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 4: glad with the product. I'm glad we did it. I'm 408 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 4: I'm also glad that we appended an episode of the 409 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 4: show at the end of the audio book, just because 410 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 4: part of me felt like, if you went away thinking 411 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 4: that me reading this book is the show, you don't 412 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 4: have a full concept what the show is, and so 413 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 4: I wanted to make sure that was present there. And 414 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 4: so I think it's a nice thing to happen. And 415 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 4: I think if somebody's like, oh, I really love nine 416 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 4: Names Invisible, I want to listen to eleven hours of 417 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 4: it in a row, it does serve that. But it 418 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 4: was it was extremely hard. I couldn't believe how hard 419 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 4: it was. I was so self conscious about it that, 420 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 4: you know, we had an independent you know company kind 421 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 4: of cut it together, like who worked for the publisher, 422 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 4: and I would pre edit it because I would mess 423 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 4: up so much that I would I would I would 424 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 4: send like an edited version for them to go edit again, 425 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 4: because I was just like, I'm not this bad at this, 426 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 4: Normally I should be. Anyway, I didn't want anyone to 427 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 4: hear it. 428 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: So the title the ninety nine percent Invisible City to 429 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: just leave open the possibility for future volumes dealing with 430 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: different rays of topics. 431 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was the idea in fact, when we went 432 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 4: out and pitched it. Originally, I pitched it as kind 433 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 4: of a set of books, like you know, maybe one 434 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 4: about cities, maybe one and about sort of roads and 435 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 4: you know, byways and highways type of thing, and then 436 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 4: about sort of vernacular architecture and specific to places. We 437 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 4: ended up sort of like making the city one, like 438 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,239 Speaker 4: incorporate a lot of that stuff already. Like as soon 439 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 4: as we went out with that, people were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, 440 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 4: why don't you just get one book out instead of 441 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 4: like plan your trilogy and they were totally right. But 442 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 4: you know, this goes back to the you know, the 443 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 4: original name to begin with is like I was making 444 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 4: a show about design, I wanted it to have this 445 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 4: name nine a percent of Visible, but I thought it 446 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 4: was so evocative that I could do a season about science. 447 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 4: I could do a season about something else. There's so 448 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 4: many things that you know, in terms of explanatory journalism 449 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 4: that need to be explained better, and most of them 450 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 4: are pretty invisible to most of us. So it kind 451 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 4: of applies to a lot of things. And so I 452 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 4: could totally see you know, a series of books in 453 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 4: different ways, or a kid's book version or something like that. 454 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 4: I'm open to it, but it honestly hasn't the internal 455 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 4: drive is hasn't quite like rebuilt to like say like, 456 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 4: oh my god, I really want to go through that again. 457 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: Now. The book deals a lot with the space where 458 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: design exists between kind of I guess government and law 459 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: on one side and user desire and experience on the other. 460 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: You've alluded to one half of this earlier talking about 461 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: how Safe for the World feels with a lot of 462 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: the designs we have in place. I know, we can't 463 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: really place a value judgment on design itself. But does 464 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: design seem to largely have a trajectory toward user safety 465 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: and happiness? 466 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 4: Well, I would say so. I mean, design is about functionality, 467 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 4: and it sort of depends on what master it is 468 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 4: serving at a certain moment as to whether or not 469 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 4: it is serving one type of audience versus another type 470 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 4: of audience or user rather. And so you know, you 471 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 4: could say some of those things in the real world 472 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 4: they work at cross purposes. So, I mean, we just 473 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 4: did a little segment of an episode that Delaney hol 474 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 4: did on the show about this idea of strodes, which 475 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 4: is like a portmanteau between street and roads. And the 476 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 4: idea here is that a road is a conveyance to 477 00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 4: get someone from one place to the other as quickly 478 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 4: as possible. A street is a place that you occupy 479 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 4: and live, and there are stores on it and park 480 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 4: benches and things like that. And when something is truly 481 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 4: a road, like a highway to get from one place 482 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 4: to the other, it works well. When something is truly 483 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 4: a street and it is for loitering and hanging out 484 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 4: and to being in places, it works well. When things 485 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 4: are strodes, when they're designed to go through quickly, but 486 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 4: they have all these people in the way and stores 487 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 4: that people are coming in and out of and stuff 488 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 4: like that. Then they work poorly and they tend to 489 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 4: be really dangerous. So you could say, well, it was 490 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 4: designed poorly, or you know, it's sort of a little 491 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 4: bit semantic, or like how you place the emphasis of it. 492 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 4: You know, I would say that that's the tyranny of 493 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 4: thoughtless design creates a strode versus somebody really tried to 494 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 4: make it this way on purpose, you know, And so 495 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 4: we do end up with things at the end which 496 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 4: are poorly designed, that are dangerous, that do not make 497 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 4: the world a better place. They are probably created from 498 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 4: a constraint from this type of constituency applying it in 499 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 4: this way and then another one to this way, and 500 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 4: it creates this sort of Frankenstein, which is a poorly 501 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 4: designed thing. And that is a you know, a version 502 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 4: of cultural and you know product evolution that is a 503 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 4: result of you know, people putting all their two cents 504 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 4: in to create something that is not very functional for 505 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 4: most people. But I do believe that when you do 506 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 4: think of safety and care of minds, that we do 507 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 4: a good job of creating those things in the end, 508 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 4: and actually anticipating things that you may not anticipate and 509 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 4: hopefully never have to anticipate when you encounter them in 510 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 4: the real world. You know, like that that they are 511 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 4: these safety things in place that hopefully just make the 512 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 4: world a better place, make you safer, but hopefully you 513 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 4: never have to consider whether or not a sign post 514 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 4: is a breakaway post, or whether or not trees alone 515 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 4: the side of the road, you know, like, you know, 516 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 4: they're there to make you feel crowded so that therefore 517 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 4: you do not go very fast. You know, they're meant 518 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 4: to add some agitation to you. Roundabouts, like you mentioned, 519 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 4: are perfect example. I mean, one of the reasons why 520 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,479 Speaker 4: roundabouts are so safe is because they feel so awful. 521 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 4: You know, when you enter into one, you have to 522 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 4: be really aware and being aware and making the built 523 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 4: environment break you out of your you know, like maybe 524 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 4: your sort of road zemblification, you know, is a good 525 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 4: thing for your safety, but it might not feel like 526 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 4: a good thing when you go through it. But somebody 527 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 4: thought about that for you. And so for the most part, 528 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 4: I would say we endeavor to make things safer, but 529 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 4: there are definitely some gaps and mostly it's when a 530 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 4: bunch of people are not coming on the same page 531 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 4: of what the design brief really is. 532 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course in the in the book you 533 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: talk about some designs such as those intended to keep 534 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: unhomed people from laying on park benches that sort of. 535 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there's lots of hostile design. And again it's 536 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 4: serving somebody's purpose, like somebody's putting it there on purpose, 537 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 4: because they're trying to commit a kind of social change 538 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 4: and social pressure and influence through the built world. Now, 539 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 4: the thing is, as privileged people, they're kind of doing 540 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 4: that for you. You know, they're doing it for your benefit, 541 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 4: you know, to the detriment of people who have less. 542 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 4: And the important part about that influence is recognizing do 543 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 4: you really want that? You know, like somebody's making this 544 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 4: decision for you, And if if you don't know about it, 545 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 4: then obviously you can't sort of like you have any commentary. 546 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 4: So our first job is to make people aware of 547 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,959 Speaker 4: what these spikes and these different sort of like hostile architecture, 548 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 4: you know, like interventions are, and then the second step 549 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 4: is to go like, well, is that the result you want? 550 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 4: And do you want to like interact with your setty 551 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 4: to change it. You know, it's the second part of 552 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 4: that discussion. 553 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: You're a Strode example reminded me of of parklets, which 554 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: are also discussed in the book. Yeah, by the time 555 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: the book came out, and certainly by the time of 556 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: my reading it, like everyone, I think, especially in urban areas, 557 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: that heard of parklets to do to their role in 558 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: the pandemic. But this, yeah, this is also an area 559 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: that's between different ideas of what the street or the 560 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: road is used for. 561 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, a parklet is a really interesting thing. There's a 562 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 4: sort of movement here called Parking Day I'm in the 563 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 4: Bay Area, which sort of pioneered this idea of like, well, 564 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 4: instead of you know, putting a coin in a meter 565 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 4: to you know, rent a space for a car, why 566 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 4: don't we put coins in the meter and like lay 567 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 4: down some sod and put on put some chairs down. 568 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 4: And this is something I've covered for I mean for 569 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 4: like twenty something here years at this point. And then 570 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 4: it really came to pass when all of a sudden, 571 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 4: we're in COVID. We wanted to be together, but we 572 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 4: needed space away from each other and space outside. And 573 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 4: you know, when it comes to roads, you know, for millennia, 574 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 4: they've been these loads of multimodal use cases like they 575 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 4: you know, the people walked on them, people rode bikes 576 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 4: on them, people rode horses on them, vendors set up 577 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 4: in the middle of them, and then over time we 578 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 4: just decided that, oh, they're for cars. You know, you know, 579 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 4: no one else belongs on them, and you can cross 580 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 4: here and here, and if you cross anywhere in between, 581 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 4: you're breaking the law. And and that was where our 582 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 4: values lied when it came to the design of cities. 583 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 4: You know, it's not where I would place my personal values, 584 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 4: but but that's you know, we collectively kind of thought 585 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 4: that that was a good case. And then COVID comes along, 586 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 4: and all of a sudden, the value of that space 587 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 4: changed and we wanted it back, like as pedestrians and 588 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 4: people and people drinking coffee, and so, you know, we 589 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 4: decided to bump out these spaces that were used for 590 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 4: cars so that we could be outside and enjoy things. 591 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 4: And it was kind of fascinating because you know, the 592 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 4: book came out right at the kind of beginning of 593 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 4: COVID in twenty twenty, and it was an interesting time 594 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 4: to think about the design of cities. When this, you know, 595 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 4: outside influence made us rethink, you know, how our cities 596 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 4: should be designed very rapidly, you know, and and thoroughly, 597 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 4: you know, like because one of the things that happens 598 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 4: when you're thinking about design or thinking about your city 599 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 4: is there's a there's kind of a solipsistic kind of 600 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 4: way we enter the world is the way things are 601 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 4: and should be, and we don't really think about the 602 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 4: continuum we are on when it comes to how cities 603 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 4: are designed and should be designed. And so when you 604 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 4: have a rapid kind of jolt to the system and 605 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 4: there's a reassise of space and the value of space 606 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 4: in different ways, it's a good time to think about, Hey, 607 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 4: you know what, maybe we do think about roads as 608 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 4: belonging to cars, but like if you look at this 609 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 4: book or look through history, you realize that roads weren't 610 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 4: about cars. They were it's a pretty recent phenomenon that 611 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 4: we thought that that's what they should be, and maybe 612 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 4: it's worth reassessing these things. And I think if there's 613 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 4: any sort of thesis to the book or to the show, 614 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 4: it's that the built world and the things we design 615 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 4: are a window into our values as humans, and they 616 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 4: always shift and change based on those values, and when 617 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 4: you have this moment of crisis when it comes to 618 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 4: the pandemic, it really did change our value of what 619 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 4: a city was for and who it was for, and 620 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 4: what was worth giving up and what wasn't worth giving up. 621 00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 4: And you know, as horrible as the situation was, it 622 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 4: was fascinating to sort of figure out those reassessments and realignments. 623 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 4: And it's still like, I think some of the stuff 624 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 4: that we figured out during that period of time, we'll 625 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 4: still linger with us for a long time, and maybe 626 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 4: they'll be completely subsumed in different types of you know, 627 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 4: normal life quote unquote normal life will return different ways. 628 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 4: But I do think that there's like a sense that, yeah, 629 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 4: these spaces like we kind of want them back, and 630 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 4: we're never going to relent. We're going to give them 631 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 4: back again. And it's a it's a it was fascinating 632 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,479 Speaker 4: to watch happened as we were talking about the book 633 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 4: so much, and also to see the results of it today. 634 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: All right, Well, the podcast is of course ninety nine 635 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: percent invisible. The book is the ninety nine percent Invisible City. 636 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: Roman Mars, thanks for taking time out of your day 637 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: to chat with me. 638 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 4: Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you so much. I 639 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 4: really enjoyed the show too, so it's real honor to 640 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 4: be on. 641 00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: Thank you all right, Thanks again to Roman Mars for 642 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: taking time out of his busy day to chat with me. 643 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: Here again, the podcast is ninety nine percent Invisible, and 644 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: you can find ninety nine percent Invisible anywhere you get 645 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: your podcasts, obviously, and the book is The ninety nine 646 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: percent Invisible City, which is available in all formats. Like 647 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: I said in the interview, I've got the hard version here, 648 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: the physical copy, and it's just it's really nice, really 649 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: nice design in this so I highly recommend it. As always, 650 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: I want to remind you that Stuff to Blow Your 651 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: Mind is a science podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays 652 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: and Thursdays. On Mondays we do listener mail, on Wednesdays 653 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: we do a short form artifact or monster fact episode, 654 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. That's our 655 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious concerns and just talk 656 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: about a weird film. Thanks as always to JJ Possway 657 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: for producing the show, and if you want to get 658 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: in touch with us, you can email us at contact 659 00:35:51,440 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 660 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 661 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 3: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 662 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 3: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.