1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh, and 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Chuck's here as always, Dave's here, and Spirit Cherry's here 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: in Spirit. They're both alive. Don't worry, they're just not 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: here with us right now. And that makes this short stuff. 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 2: That's because they're at Spirit Halloween. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: That's true. They both got extra side hustles, as they're called. 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: We just got a bunch of new Halloween stuff. Emily 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 2: really wants to ramp up our Halloween game. 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: Oh nice, we got one last year. We got a big, tall, 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: scary guy who's holding a baby upside down and they 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: both like the baby screams. Not a baby, let's say 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: a toddler. 13 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: Does it suck the breath out of the baby? 14 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: No, it just holds her by her leg upside down 15 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: and she screams a lot. And the guy's like, and 16 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: it's pretty great. I mean, this is a huge step 17 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: up from what we normally do, which is a like 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: a paper mache pumpkin and a sign that says get away. 19 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The reason I ask about the breath as 20 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: there's a legendary figure that you can, like this giant 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: that you can put on your front porch where the 22 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: dude holds up a toddler and it has I guess 23 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 2: steam or smoke or something, and it looks like it's 24 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: sucking the breath out of this child. 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: Wow. 26 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: And our friends of the show, John Hodgman and Jesse Thorn, 27 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: talked a lot about it on their Judge John Hodgman podcast, which, 28 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: by the way, is on tour. If you want to 29 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: go see those guys on tour. It's a lot of fun. 30 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll take your breath away for sure seeing them live. 31 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So just go go check out Judge John Hodgman Tour. 32 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: It's a fun show and you never know who might 33 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: show up. Might be me, might be Josh Man. 34 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: Hodgman knows you some money for that segue. 35 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 2: That was amazing and spirit Halloweencot. 36 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: I'm still trying to figure out how you worked it. 37 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: And that was great. 38 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: All right, Well, we've wasted two of our twelve minutes, 39 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: so let's talk about redaction. 40 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Chuck, redaction. We definitely touched on it in our 41 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: Foyer episode for sure, but just to kind of refresh everybody. 42 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: Redaction is where there's parts of documents or transcripts or 43 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: something like that that are so sensitive that they have 44 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: to be essentially removed. They're usually blacked out. Is the 45 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: traditional way that you know, you think of redaction, but 46 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: it turns out there's a lot of other types of 47 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: redaction and ways to do it, and tons of reasons. 48 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: It's not just because you asked the CIA for a 49 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: bunch of documents. There's a lot of different groups that 50 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: react on the regular. 51 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you mentioned FOYA, the Freedom of Information Act. 52 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: If you've ever laid your eyes on something as a 53 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: request from that Act, then you will probably see a 54 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: bunch of sharpie magic marker through names and places, maybe 55 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 2: entire pages redacted. But it's often thought of as a 56 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 2: government thing, but like you said, a lot of sometimes 57 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: like a court will order that to protect sensitive information. 58 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: In the medical field, obviously, there's the Health Insurance Portability 59 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: and Accountability Act, the hip hop thing that you always 60 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 2: hear about it the doctor. It's you know, your medical privacy, 61 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: so they might order a redaction there. Your grades and 62 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: your schooling is private thanks to the Family Educational Rights 63 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 2: and Privacy Act, so your educational records could be redacted 64 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 2: if it was brought into court. That kind of thing 65 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: for sure. 66 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: And then speaking of court, the legal world is huge unredaction. 67 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: They're riduculously. 68 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 2: That one really got me, actually, that one. 69 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: That in particular in the legal world, redaction is usually 70 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: associated with civil cases because there's a process of discovery 71 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: where it's like, give me all the documents you have 72 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: pertaining to this case, and I'll give you all the 73 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: documents I have, and if not, we'll get in big, 74 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: big trouble if we don't do that. Right, But in 75 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: those documents there's inevitably stuff that doesn't pertain to the case. 76 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: There's protected like say copyrighted or trademarked or patented information 77 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: like trade secrets can be in there. If there's a 78 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: company involved, there's people not related to the case who 79 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: may be emailed about something or we're just CC you 80 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: want to get rid of that. 81 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: There's any client privilege, of course. 82 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: Exactly, there's a lot of reasons to redact in legal cases, 83 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: and there's a certain way to do it. And yet 84 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: regardless of all these reasons that people have to redact 85 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: in all these fields that are like required to redact 86 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: things like hippa requires the medical field to redact, there's 87 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: not actually like a prescribed way like and this is 88 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: how you do it. It's more like you need to 89 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: redact this and go figure out how to do that, 90 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: and then if you do it wrong, you're going to 91 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: get your pants suit off. 92 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: That's right, And shall we take a break and talk 93 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: of about the myriad ways that you can do so, yeah, 94 00:04:46,880 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: all right, we'll be right back. All right. So you 95 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: mentioned that there are not any set rules in place 96 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 2: about how to redact something. It's up to the redactor 97 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: what you will usually see. And if you've ever seen 98 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: government documents on the news or whatever, you usually will 99 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,119 Speaker 2: just see like a black magic marker drawn through names, 100 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 2: and not through a name, but like completely over a name, 101 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: or it's not always a name, just whatever you're redacting. Again, 102 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 2: it could be sentences or wold pages or paragraphs. And 103 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: then what you should do then is then make a 104 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: copy of that otherwise someone and this has happened plenty 105 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 2: of times. If you give that person the original, you 106 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: can just hold it up to the light many times 107 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 2: and see what's going on. If you photocopy it, you can't. 108 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: So that's a pretty good old school way to do. 109 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: So, yeah, you, me and I watched The Amber heard 110 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: Johnny Depp lost suit a couple of years. 111 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: Ago on the trial and TV. 112 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where I learned that that's what you're 113 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: supposed to do from some lawyers who analyzed it like 114 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: just about every night, and they said, apparently the reason 115 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: they brought it up is because somebody was holding a 116 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: document and on the TV camera it was the original 117 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: just with it blacked out, and apparently the internet could 118 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: read what it was. I think it was somebody's email, 119 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: like maybe even Amber Heerd's email. Oh yeah, And that 120 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: night the lawyers are like, they that's not how you 121 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: do it. You do that with the originals and you 122 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: make a photocopy of the originals, is just not possible 123 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: to see what you've redacted at that point. 124 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: So but a dumb thing to do. 125 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, dude, that's I mean, what do you do? 126 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: Like are you just like, well, you just gave me 127 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: your services for free? Like what you know? What's what 128 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: happens as a result of that? I'm curious? 129 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. Well we'll talk a little bit about 130 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: that at the end. I don't know what happened in 131 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 2: that case, but what can happen? So yeah, drawing black 132 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: magic marker is good old school way, but you know 133 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff these days, most stuff, in fact, 134 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: is an electronic form. So people started using software tools 135 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: and you know, like things within a program to essentially 136 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: black magic marker over it. And that can be good. 137 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: But you know, one of the articles I use for 138 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: this talk to an attorney, a DC based national security 139 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: law attorney. He was like, I don't trust it. I 140 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: don't trust technology even if you do that, and maybe 141 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: somebody could design a program to undo that and override it. 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: So this guy like he didn't even like the black 143 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: magic marker because I think he's been burned by that before. 144 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: So he cuts everything out literally with scissors, and he said, 145 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of sloppy looking, but it make 146 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: sure that no one can see what was there or 147 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: if it's electronic, I might just completely delete the sentence 148 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: or word right and type and type in over that 149 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: in all bold letters deleted by the request of the CIA. 150 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that guy's name is Mark Ze, the lawyer. 151 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: And there's really good reason to actually go in and 152 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: delete the words because there's been at least one case, 153 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: the trial of Paul Manifort, who was on trial for perjury. 154 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: I think lying to the FBI obstruction of justice a 155 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: few things related to that whole Mueller Report investigation of 156 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election. And in that case, 157 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: one of the redacted documents that a journalist from The 158 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: Guardian named John Swain got, all they did was put 159 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: a black bar, like they used the square like draw 160 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: tool in Microsoft Word and filled it in with black 161 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: and sent it out and like John yeah, and John 162 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: Swain copied the whole thing and pasted it and that 163 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: stuff was not redacted in because it didn't coffee paste 164 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: the black box. So there's there's definitely the wrong way 165 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: to do it, and it does happen from people who 166 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: just aren't thinking or just don't have enough experience, But 167 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: it seems like it would be a really big big deal, 168 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: Like you'd be like, Okay, your job for the rest 169 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: of your career is redacting, and you get perfect at redacting, 170 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: and that's what you do. Not welcome to the firm, 171 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: start redacting stuff. Good luck? 172 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, for sure you can. You know, if 173 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: you're in a case and you see some things redacted, 174 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: but you're trying to still kind of figure it out 175 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: and like guess and speculate. First of all, that attorney's 176 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: you'd said, it's really not smart to do that, because 177 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 2: you can be off base and get things wrong, and 178 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 2: I've even done that in cases. But like, I was 179 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: trying to figure out how this could happen, and one 180 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: thing that I just sort of dreamed up was, you know, 181 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: let's say it's a case where you might know it's 182 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: one of like four three people that did something, and 183 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: one of them's name as Abraham Abramowitz. One of them's 184 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 2: name is is Joshua Clarkin Clarkin Gauge. 185 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, don't drag me into it, but 186 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: I don't know this. Joshua Clark engaged. 187 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: And then one guy's name is Tom Bill. And you 188 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 2: see this very short reaction. You could probably figure, oh, 189 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: I bet you anything, it's the guy with a really 190 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: short name because it's a short reaction. So we've narrowed 191 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: it down that way. So that's just one way that 192 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: I dreamed up that you can you can smart redact, 193 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 2: you know, maybe do like longer lines if it's a 194 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: really short name or something that you're trying to conceal. 195 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: Good good point. I prescribe you to spend more time 196 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: looking at names on headstones and cemeteries. Because that's apparently 197 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: where writers, good writers get their best ideas for names 198 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: that aren't like Josh Clarkin Gage or something like that, 199 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: or Chance Finkelstein or something you know, like and sorry 200 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: it all Finkelstein's out there, but that's sounds made up 201 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: as a name. And if you are a Chance Finkelstein, 202 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: right in, because that would be amazing to hear from you. 203 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: Well, that's why I did silly things, because I didn't 204 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: want to accidentally say someone's real name. 205 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: Oh okay, oh I get it. What good idea? 206 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: I don't think Josh and Eric Clark Engage is a 207 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: real surname, is it. 208 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, Probably not. It doesn't sound right. Maybe 209 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: Mick Clark Engage. 210 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: Back to redacting earlier, he said, like, what could happen 211 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: if you're like, I guess I don't have to pay 212 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 2: my lawyer. If they've screwed up on that level, maybe 213 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 2: that could happen. There could be legal penalties. There could 214 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: be like if you had to pay some big fine 215 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: in your attorney screwed up and you had to pay 216 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: that fine because of that bad reaction, then you could 217 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 2: certainly go after them. There would certainly be a loss 218 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 2: of trust. Which is another one of the things and 219 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: damage to reputation, Like, if that kind of thing gets out, 220 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 2: then you're not going to be someone that gets all 221 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: out of work. You're gonna be the bad redactor. 222 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: Right, So I think I think the moral of this 223 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: story is if your job is to redact things, do 224 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: it right. Yeah, Well, chuck silence means short stuff is out. 225 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 226 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,359 Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 227 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.