1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

4
00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Brading. Hello, welcome back to the show.

5
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is known. They called

6
00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

7
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,400
Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decond. Most importantly, you are you. You

8
00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,200
Speaker 1: are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want

9
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,960
Speaker 1: you to know. Today we are diving headlong into the murky,

10
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 1: often disturbing world of Hollywood, old school class, capital age Hollywood.

11
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,920
Speaker 1: This is a backstage look behind the glitz and glamour,

12
00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:03,640
Speaker 1: into the world of drugs, crime, assaw Alton, just maybe conspiracy.

13
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,560
Speaker 1: So before we get to the meat of today's exploration,

14
00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 1: before we get really into the bowels of conspiracy, here,

15
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 1: I have to ask, none of us actually met Marilyn Monroe, right?

16
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,640
Speaker 1: Is that correct? No? No, not personally though. Uh. Shout

17
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,840
Speaker 1: out to a friend of the show, friend of all

18
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,000
Speaker 1: three of us as individuals, Sarah cotton Off. This is

19
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,479
Speaker 1: the episode she's been screaming for for years now. Yes,

20
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,360
Speaker 1: shout out to you, Sarah, Thank you for tuning in

21
00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,840
Speaker 1: if this is an episode you listen to, wish it Texter, Uh,

22
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,440
Speaker 1: what about you, Mett? Uh did I meet Marilyn Monroe?

23
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:51,120
Speaker 1: Unfortunately I was not around in the sixties, But yes, Um,

24
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 1: reports of Matt's illicit affair with Maryland have been largely exaggerated,

25
00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,080
Speaker 1: and just putting that out there definitely so confirming. I

26
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 1: cannot imagine. I can only imagine the same as true

27
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,280
Speaker 1: for Paul michigantrol decand Uh. And if you are listening

28
00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,920
Speaker 1: to today's episodes, statistically you probably never met the Hollywood

29
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: icon Marilyn Monroe in person. However, you are almost doubtlessly

30
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,000
Speaker 1: aware of this person. Even if you even if you

31
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,240
Speaker 1: live in a community where you've never heard the name

32
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:34,400
Speaker 1: or seen the films, you have seen some image of

33
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:41,240
Speaker 1: this individual. And this individual, as we have clearly established here,

34
00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: passed away. Even today. Questions remain about the nature of

35
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,560
Speaker 1: this person's demise. There are you might be surprised to

36
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:57,760
Speaker 1: find many active conspiracy theories about just what happened to

37
00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 1: Marylyn Monroe. So you're the facts if you recognize this person.

38
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 1: Uh kind of a um, kind of the harbinger of

39
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:15,640
Speaker 1: the blonde bombshell trope. Right. Marilyn Monroe is a is

40
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 1: a US star of the screen right, also known as

41
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 1: a model, pent up model, and has been depicted, parodied,

42
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:33,800
Speaker 1: paid homage too in so many works of fiction. But

43
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,120
Speaker 1: who was she really? Uh? I guess the first thing

44
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,160
Speaker 1: we have to say is that she didn't start out

45
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 1: with the name Marilyn Monroe. No, no, no. The person

46
00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 1: we knew as Marilyn Monroe was born Norma Jean Mortenson.

47
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 1: She was born on June one, in nineteen six in

48
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,720
Speaker 1: the Great City of Los Angeles. And uh, yeah, as

49
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 1: you said, been She's known for a lot of things,

50
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 1: mostly weirdly enough, for being a looker and for being

51
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,720
Speaker 1: very alluring in the way she spoke, in her physical mannerisms. Um,

52
00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 1: she's one of the maybe one of the first people

53
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 1: that was you couldn't take your eyes off of the

54
00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,880
Speaker 1: film when Marilyn Monroe was on it, and that just

55
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 1: became a a thing that everybody like. An image of

56
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,480
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe became something that everyone wanted to get their

57
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,480
Speaker 1: hands on, to be able to take one, to have

58
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,159
Speaker 1: a picture of her. It's very it's very interesting to

59
00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,680
Speaker 1: see how she isn't necessarily the beginning of that kind

60
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,880
Speaker 1: of celebrity culture. But she's definitely like maybe exists at

61
00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 1: the pinnacle of it, right like, uh, sort of like

62
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 1: Edison never invented the light bulb, but popularized. So the

63
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: thing is. Monroe's life or Mortenson's life was far from perfect,

64
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,360
Speaker 1: especially in the early days. She would later take her

65
00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:01,320
Speaker 1: mother's name Baker for a time, and her mother equally

66
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,599
Speaker 1: had a difficult life. She was frequently confined to an asylum,

67
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:11,640
Speaker 1: and so Norma Jean was raised by no less than

68
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 1: twelve different sets of foster parents, some of whom were abusive,

69
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 1: and for a time she was living in an orphanage.

70
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,359
Speaker 1: She also didn't know that she had siblings for quite

71
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,600
Speaker 1: some time. She learned that she had a sister when

72
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,720
Speaker 1: she was about seventeen or eighteen. It was tough, you know,

73
00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,560
Speaker 1: if you looked at this person as a juvenile, you

74
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,480
Speaker 1: would have probably have a hard time connecting that individual

75
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 1: to the icon of stage and screen. She suffered from

76
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: a stutter in childhood, which is likely uh, likely a

77
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 1: result of the abuse she suffered from multiple foster's, multiple

78
00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,279
Speaker 1: guard and uh and so when she's a kid, watching

79
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 1: films becomes a way to escape from the grim realities

80
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,599
Speaker 1: of life. Early on, she says, I want to be

81
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 1: an actress. This is very important. She doesn't say I

82
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,080
Speaker 1: want to be a model. She doesn't say I want

83
00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 1: to be um, you know, I want to be a

84
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 1: cartash shoot or whatever the equivalent would be nowadays. She

85
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 1: just says, I want to escape. I want to be

86
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,920
Speaker 1: someone else. And while she's thinking of this, she doesn't

87
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,720
Speaker 1: immediately start off as a model. She uh, if things

88
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 1: are gone just a little bit differently, she may have

89
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 1: spent the entirety of her career working at aircraft factories

90
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,120
Speaker 1: or munition factories, right, which is where obviously she was

91
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,800
Speaker 1: when she kind of got her big break, I guess,

92
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 1: or at least if you want to go and see

93
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 1: pictures of pre icon Marilyn Monroe, you can see her

94
00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,080
Speaker 1: working in some of those factories as a part of

95
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,160
Speaker 1: kind of a photo shoot of like women and in

96
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,279
Speaker 1: the workforce. And she ended up marrying somebody who was

97
00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 1: working that job along with her or released in the factory.

98
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,200
Speaker 1: But they didn't last too long. Right after World War

99
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 1: Two they separated, divorced um And here's the thing. At

100
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 1: that time, when she had her first marriage she was

101
00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,840
Speaker 1: very young, only sixteen years old, that's right. Um. Her

102
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,120
Speaker 1: husband at the time was twenty one, which is problematic

103
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,440
Speaker 1: by today's standards. Time she married to avoid being sent

104
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,240
Speaker 1: back to an orphanage. UM. So this is definitely a marriage,

105
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 1: just sort of a functional marriage for her. Anyway, the

106
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 1: marriage was not a success, um, but it did lead

107
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: her to move in within laws when her husband was

108
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 1: deployed into the Merchant Marines in n four that's when

109
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,680
Speaker 1: she started that job working in the munitions factory in

110
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 1: Van Nuys and met UH this photographer fellow named David Conover,

111
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,360
Speaker 1: who was sent by the U. S. Army Air Forces

112
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 1: UH first Motion Picture unit to take pictures of women

113
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,360
Speaker 1: working in the in the workface. It's sort of like

114
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,240
Speaker 1: a Rosie the Riveter kind of like campaign, you know,

115
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,400
Speaker 1: the idea that well, all the men are away, the

116
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 1: women take up their their hubbies mantle, you know. And

117
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm just speaking in the parlance of kind of the

118
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 1: tone of these these ads propaganda, right, Yeah, it's absolutely

119
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, man, it's a it's a propaganda photo op.

120
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,000
Speaker 1: And her specific photos didn't make the cut for that

121
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,040
Speaker 1: propaganda push. But as a result of that interaction. She

122
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,920
Speaker 1: ended up quitting the factory altogether to work as a

123
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 1: model for this photographer you named nol David Conover and

124
00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,200
Speaker 1: some of his friends. The next year, it's nine, she

125
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,800
Speaker 1: signs her first modeling contract. This is with something called

126
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:55,079
Speaker 1: the Blue Book Model Agency. It is owned by someone

127
00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:03,440
Speaker 1: named Emmeline snive Lee and the sue at this agency, again,

128
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 1: there's a lot of misogyny at the time. The suits

129
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 1: at this agency say, do you know what, Norma Jane.

130
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,200
Speaker 1: You're more of a pin up model then, like a

131
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 1: high fashion runway type, so we're gonna put you in

132
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 1: more pin up the situations, and she worked her ass off.

133
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,000
Speaker 1: This is when this person dies their hair blonde and

134
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 1: straightens it and becomes a hit in no less than

135
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,720
Speaker 1: a year. What is pin up versus high fashion? Can

136
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,679
Speaker 1: we just I just don't understand. Maybe the difference pin

137
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 1: up is, I think it's seen historically or at the

138
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,760
Speaker 1: time it was a little bit more uh not trashy.

139
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,400
Speaker 1: It wasn't pornography, but it was definitely high fashion. It

140
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 1: was much more about you know, fine clothes and and

141
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,720
Speaker 1: uh and society and all that, and pin up was

142
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: considered a little bit more prurient or abroad and sort

143
00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,560
Speaker 1: of like maybe Maxim magazine versus I would say, again

144
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,439
Speaker 1: practicing the misogyny at the time, they are looking at

145
00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,480
Speaker 1: body shape and they're seeing a woman with curves, a

146
00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,560
Speaker 1: woman who has books of them and not quite a

147
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 1: fashion plate for a weird dress from an Italian fashion house, right,

148
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 1: so they are that's that's what they're looking at. Their

149
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 1: looking at kind of sex appeal, if we're being frank

150
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 1: and so, thirty three magazines less than a year, things

151
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,600
Speaker 1: that other models would absolutely dream of. She begins using

152
00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,560
Speaker 1: a pseudonym Gene Norman, because even though this is before

153
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,400
Speaker 1: the days of social media, it's probably already got some weirdos.

154
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,439
Speaker 1: Write some weirdo letters. Through her boss, the Blue Book

155
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:53,400
Speaker 1: Agency owner Emmiline Sniveley, Monroe gets a contract with an

156
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,040
Speaker 1: acting agency. Let's remember this person always wanted to act

157
00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:04,880
Speaker 1: since childhood. This leads to a contract with twenty Century Fox,

158
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,800
Speaker 1: which is still around today. She starts to pick up

159
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:14,199
Speaker 1: the name Marilyn Monroe around this period, and shortly after this,

160
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 1: like you alluded to, Matt, she divorces her first husband.

161
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,560
Speaker 1: This guy was not on board with her new career.

162
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 1: He was also a merchant marine. Uh. You could write

163
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 1: a book about her early childhood, her rise to fame,

164
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,200
Speaker 1: or subsequent career, many many people already have not all

165
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 1: of these books encounter the same rigor of scholarship, which

166
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,080
Speaker 1: will see soon. But as a result of that, we're

167
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,040
Speaker 1: going to stick to high level points. Her first film

168
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,840
Speaker 1: appearances are what you could call bit parts dare I

169
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,400
Speaker 1: say I candy and things like Dangerous Years and my

170
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 1: favorite film title in today's episode, scutta ho scutta hey,

171
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: I've never seen it? Is that some kind of military

172
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,679
Speaker 1: like hua kind of like thing. That's what it strikes

173
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 1: me as, like some sort of exclamation that might be

174
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,079
Speaker 1: used in an armed branch of the armed forces. Scutta

175
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:18,040
Speaker 1: hoole scutta hey. It's just fun to say. And she

176
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 1: was pretty immediately successful as a model, if not right away,

177
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,680
Speaker 1: you know, the Hollywood icon that we know today. And

178
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 1: to her credit, Monroe did not give up, even when

179
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 1: she had to switch studios, and she would go to

180
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 1: these acting conservatories, acting labs and so on, and the

181
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,840
Speaker 1: teachers would tell her in candid terms that they were unimpressed.

182
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 1: Her breakthrough doesn't arrive until nine. She returns to modeling

183
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: part time, and from like forty nine to fifty two

184
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,080
Speaker 1: she's still modeling, and she's done some topless work in

185
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,199
Speaker 1: the past by this point, and she's landing supporting rules

186
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 1: in multiple films. Uh, a lot of like a lot

187
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 1: of comedies as the very sexy person in the comedy

188
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,840
Speaker 1: Oh yes, uh Many a comedy she was in. Also

189
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,199
Speaker 1: many a soldier's bunk area she was in. I don't

190
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 1: know if that's the right way to say that. No.

191
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about like the shosh ankre

192
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,400
Speaker 1: Deemption or the short story that it was based on

193
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,320
Speaker 1: Rita Hayworth and the show ankre Deemption, the Stephen King

194
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,319
Speaker 1: short story from different seasons, it's all those are. Those

195
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,720
Speaker 1: pin up girls were posters in a lot of ways,

196
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 1: and then they were the kinds of things you'd see

197
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 1: in sailors, you know, bunks and all of that stuff.

198
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 1: And uh, it's a very important part of the plot

199
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 1: of that story because it was such a common thing

200
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 1: to see. Yeah, I don't I don't know what regulations

201
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,680
Speaker 1: the military has for having those that kind of imagery

202
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 1: up around. I don't know if it's encouraged or I

203
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,040
Speaker 1: think it was just part of it, you know that,

204
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,600
Speaker 1: So I'm being jokey about it actually being up in

205
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,760
Speaker 1: the areas where where soldiers slept. But but she was

206
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,960
Speaker 1: very popular with soldiers. Um, there's something almost I don't know,

207
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,600
Speaker 1: I can imagine it in the minds of some of

208
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,040
Speaker 1: the people running the military as having someone like that,

209
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 1: an icon like that that resonates so much with so

210
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 1: many troops, as being almost a patriotic symbol in some

211
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 1: way of how great America is? Can you guys like

212
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 1: I feel like that might be true? You're correct. The

213
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 1: United States, I should say, has always had two primary exports,

214
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,480
Speaker 1: culture and warfare. That's those are the two biggest and

215
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 1: there's no arguing about it. She was also called Cheesecake

216
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 1: Queen in nineteen fifty two, which was both a reference

217
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,400
Speaker 1: to her appeal among soldiers in the Korean War as

218
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:04,680
Speaker 1: the US ca as it and uh, their favorite wartime food,

219
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 1: which was cheesecake. Wasn't She's kicked photos and stuff like that,

220
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 1: kind of like edgy sort of sexy pictures. It's all

221
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 1: part fingers on a hand man. You nailed it of

222
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 1: actual cheesecake, you know, It's just it's like a term.

223
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,280
Speaker 1: It's now I think It's just the term came to

224
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 1: refer to kind of pictures you might hide in your

225
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: sock drawer, you know, from mom or it was like this. Yeah,

226
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 1: it wasn't overt as much as it was, you know, naughty.

227
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,720
Speaker 1: It's a little body like who think pin up to

228
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 1: burlesque what stripper is to pornography. Maybe yeah, yeah, that's

229
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 1: yeah that we could drive that one around the block,

230
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 1: you know. She she uh Monroe uh networked a lot

231
00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 1: with publicist and any any actor, any working actor who

232
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 1: was a fellow conspiracy realist. You know the game. A

233
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: lot of it is socializing and small talk and the

234
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 1: BS worst trading. She also dated extensively, and often ended

235
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,600
Speaker 1: up dating directors like Nicholas Ray other actors. Makes sense,

236
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 1: you're in the same uh industry, right, so you'le Brenner

237
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 1: of The King and I fame sports stars Joe di Maggio, Yeah,

238
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 1: former baseball star, but like Beckham now he still had

239
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,600
Speaker 1: a lot of public attention her dating Joe DiMaggio, whom

240
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 1: she would later go on to marry for a short time.

241
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 1: Like the best. One of the best modern analogs would

242
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,720
Speaker 1: be imagine if Scarlett Johansson was dating Lebron James in

243
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,360
Speaker 1: terms of public attention, right yeah, or I was even

244
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 1: gonna say, like, to me, the closest equivalent we have

245
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 1: to Ellen Monroe in terms of just the tension and

246
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,359
Speaker 1: the tabloid I nous is um Taylor Swift. You know,

247
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is just absolutely massive in terms of her

248
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 1: broad appeal, has you know, rabid loyalist kind of fans

249
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,560
Speaker 1: and also famous kind of public you know, dating um

250
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,159
Speaker 1: situation that she acknowledges all the time and then has

251
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 1: written songs about it and stuff. And it's just like

252
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,640
Speaker 1: everyone wants to know who's Taylor going to date next

253
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, that's why I just had to, you know,

254
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,639
Speaker 1: amicably turn down. I just, you know, why don't we

255
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: just why don't I just write a song together? You know,

256
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,800
Speaker 1: like we don't have to do the dating thing anyway.

257
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe encounters global success, and along with this success

258
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 1: comes scandal. She does have those earlier topless modeling shoots

259
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,440
Speaker 1: she artfully avoids being canceled for those in a very

260
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 1: pure tanical environment, but the whole time in her life,

261
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,520
Speaker 1: in her professional life, she wants to be more than

262
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,880
Speaker 1: just a pretty face. She wants to be taken seriously

263
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,080
Speaker 1: as an actor. That's one of her childhood loves. And

264
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: you know what bothers her a little bit that she's

265
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: often typecast as a sex symbol in these comedy films.

266
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,439
Speaker 1: Over the next decade, it's fair to say that she

267
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,960
Speaker 1: encountered a wealth of highs and an ongoing tide of lows.

268
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,359
Speaker 1: She marries Joe Dimaccio for a couple of months, She's

269
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,480
Speaker 1: in tons of films, tons of tons of model shoots.

270
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,680
Speaker 1: She divorces uh Joe Dimagio, and she marries Arthur Miller.

271
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,480
Speaker 1: Of crucible fame she gets, she wins a Golden Globe

272
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 1: like this gives a big deal, but she also starts

273
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,800
Speaker 1: to encounter some troubling health problems. One can only imagine

274
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,240
Speaker 1: what happens to you, to your mind when you reach

275
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,399
Speaker 1: that level of fame, and often we have seen in

276
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,960
Speaker 1: the past it has negative effects on just I would say,

277
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,360
Speaker 1: overall mental well being. Yeah, and this is not something

278
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: that Maryland was immune to. She began seeing a psychiatrist

279
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 1: out in Los Angeles in nineteen fifty nine, a guy

280
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:27,120
Speaker 1: named Dr Ralph Greenson, and she had some complaints about

281
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: some stuff that in my mind, you would say to

282
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist or maybe even a therapist, like I need

283
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,119
Speaker 1: help with my insomnia. I really can't sleep very well, um,

284
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 1: and I need some medication either for that or maybe

285
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,959
Speaker 1: for some other problems that I'm dealing with. But it

286
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 1: did appear, at least according to reports, that she was

287
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 1: requesting quite a bit of medication to the point where

288
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 1: this particular psychiatrist, Greensen, believed she was at the point

289
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,640
Speaker 1: of or nearing the point of being addicted to these pills. Well,

290
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 1: that's what we know happened with Michael Jackson, you know, uh,

291
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,199
Speaker 1: and possibly to a less a degree with Prince. But

292
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,360
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson was, you know, having such a hard time sleeping.

293
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: I think his personal doctor was prescribing him something called propofall,

294
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 1: which is like not intended for that kind of use.

295
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: And often when you're that level of famous, you kind

296
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,320
Speaker 1: of surround yourself with people that kind of give you

297
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,480
Speaker 1: whatever you want and don't really call you on it.

298
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 1: And that could include no slander to anyone in the

299
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: medical profession, but some people in the medical profession. This

300
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,120
Speaker 1: guy seems to have seen the signs and perhaps tried

301
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 1: to intervene though, which is a good thing. He'll come

302
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: up later in this story. We're giving some background DERA. Yeah,

303
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 1: you're both absolutely right. Uh. The very last film that

304
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 1: Monroe completes leads to rumors that she was difficult to

305
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 1: work with. Important to note these were not new accusations.

306
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,239
Speaker 1: Various directors had said similar things in the past. She

307
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: had also talked on a record about how, uh, photo

308
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 1: shoots were easier. Right, So she gains a reputation for

309
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 1: being quote unquote difficult. During the making of The Misfits,

310
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 1: she was allegedly consuming pills and alcohol to the point

311
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 1: that filming became difficult. Monroe and her husband at the time,

312
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: Arthur Miller, start to fight a whole lot, and after

313
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: the film is concluded, they separate. On May nineteenth, nineteen

314
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: sixty two, Monroe famously attends the birthday party of John F. Kennedy.

315
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: She performs a custom written version of the Happy Birthday Song.

316
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 1: Less than three months after this, she dies. I always

317
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,439
Speaker 1: kind of assumed that she just sort of riffed that version,

318
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, that it was sort of like off the cuff.

319
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 1: Do you have any more info about this specially written version?

320
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: That's fascinating to me, Yeah, she could have freestyled. She's

321
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 1: tremendously clever, and at this point in her life people

322
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: had started to respect her acumen as uh comic and

323
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 1: as an actor, which is all she really wanted. I think, yeah,

324
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 1: I guess you know that that version when she sings

325
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 1: It's Him famously turned a lot of heads because it's

326
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: incredibly flirty and uh and and very you know um

327
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: directed at at the president's and I think that may

328
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 1: be as though what I started a lot of people

329
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,719
Speaker 1: asking questions about the nature of their relationship. Was there

330
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 1: any difference in the song besides the like sultry nature

331
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 1: of the performance, Mr Premister President part Happy Birthday, Mr President. Uh,

332
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 1: look this this is all happening at once and again

333
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: there is a very high level view. Unfortunately, the person

334
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 1: known as Marilyn Monroe is discovered dead in her home

335
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: on August four two. The body is unclothed, in a

336
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: bad face down, holding a telephone in one hand. This

337
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: person in is only thirty six years old. And you know,

338
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 1: I don't want to get on a soapbox here about

339
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: the dangers and stupidity of deifying celebrities who are only

340
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: other human beings. Other. But I do want to say

341
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: that this attention that you're describing Matt a bit is

342
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: uh is part and parcel of what can lead people

343
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: to an early death. Folks make these concepts of real

344
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: humans and put them on a pedestal just to watch

345
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: them crash and then act all scandalized and surprised when

346
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: it happens, because these people have been continually hounded throughout

347
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: their lives. The Corners Toxic College report, it's pretty interesting

348
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: and says the official cause of death is acute barbiturate poisoning,

349
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: and they say it cannot be accidental. They say the

350
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 1: dosages are well over the lethal limit. The dosages would

351
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: have been known to this individual. In other words, they're

352
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: saying suicide. They're saying Marilyn Monroe took a bunch of

353
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: pills on purpose and died. Repituates are like um sedatives

354
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: or well maybe you'd call them tranquilizers kind of isn't

355
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: that with us? Are? Yeah? The idea is that they

356
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 1: were prescribed to her for insomnia by two separate doctors,

357
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 1: as you had noted earlier met like the there were

358
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: two doctors. We'll get into them in a second. There

359
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: there at the root of some of these conspiracies, because

360
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: as soon as this person passes away again at only

361
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: the age of thirty six, rumors start to surface. People

362
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: are saying foul play was involved, and even now in

363
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: twenty three decades later, those rumors of conspiracy and allegations

364
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: of a cover up continue. So did one of the

365
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: world's most famous people at the time really take her

366
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: old life through suicide or accidental overdose? Is there more

367
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: to the story? That's what we're about to explore afterward

368
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. Okay, guys,

369
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: just a couple of things I just want to understand

370
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: before we get into this. Uh, she, to the best

371
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: of our knowledge, she was found unclothed with her hand

372
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: on the telephone. That is like official, that's the official

373
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: story as of this moment. Yeah, that is. That continues

374
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: to be the official story. And her body is discovered

375
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: in the wee hours. So it's like, depending on whether

376
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: you're at daytime or a nighttime individual, it's either late

377
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: in the evening on August four or early in the

378
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: morning on Saturday, August five, before dawn got it. That's

379
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: the day I wanted to make sure I understood the day. Yeah,

380
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: you know, the questions surrounding the death. It's interesting if

381
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,959
Speaker 1: you follow this story, you know that Los Angeles law enforcement,

382
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: the District Attorney actually started looking into this. They reviewed

383
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: the case in eighty two because of all the questions

384
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: and claims surrounding this tragic demise spoiler. Their official position

385
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 1: is that the first, the first Cordner's account is correct,

386
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: and there's no evidence to support the idea that Monroe

387
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,239
Speaker 1: was murdered. So maybe we start we start here with

388
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: these questions whatever people are digging up. It was enough

389
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: that in two the district attorney did start to re

390
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: examine the case. Maybe we talked through some of the

391
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: leading conspiracies, the leading theories, and evaluate them along the way.

392
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 1: What we find is is really interesting from a folkloric perspective,

393
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: everybody had a pet theory about this woman's death, and

394
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: they started, I will this is just me. This is

395
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: like a bad idea. I would say that what we

396
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: see happening is that people would pluck, cherry pick earlier

397
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: claims without looking into the evidence, present those as fact,

398
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: and then build their own, you know, their own spins

399
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: on it. It's really it's really weird. If you look

400
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: at the first printed allegation of conspiracy, it's not a book,

401
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: it's not a big deal in the public consciousness. It's

402
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: it's by a guy named Frank A. Capell. It's a

403
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: pamphlet self published. It's a zine. Basically, it's called The

404
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: Strange Death of Marilyn Monroe. Frank A. Capell is including

405
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: is like writing about this through a very specific lens.

406
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: He is an anti communist, conspiracy theorist. Yeah, and he

407
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: sees Marilyn Monroe as this commune agent who has essentially

408
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: infiltrated the US government at some of the highest levels

409
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: with Robert F. Kennedy and also a communist. He says, huh.

410
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: And so the the idea is that Marylyn was going

411
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: to at some point expose that she and RFK were

412
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: having some kind of affair, and in order to stop

413
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: that from happening, RFK got his in this person's mind,

414
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: communist cronies to do the deed to take her out,

415
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: make it look like she overdosed on barbiturous and it

416
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: was like, think about it. Arthur Miller, also a communist,

417
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: also a read look at her doctors. I bet their

418
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: commies to what we're looking at is a communist conspiracy. Well,

419
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: this was the height of like Red Scare kind of

420
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: propaganda and people being blacklisted and all of that stuff,

421
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: and you know, the House an American Committee and all

422
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: of that. So it really was kind of like a

423
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: witch hunt of a time, which, if I'm not mistaken,

424
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: is what Arthur Miller wrote The Crucible about. Um, just

425
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: that whole atmosphere that that he was swept up in

426
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: very much. You guys, have you heard of this show?

427
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: Paul T. Goldman? No, you mentioned the other the other

428
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: day and then I remember being intreatd tell tell us

429
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: more this thing you're mentioning ben as Um, this guy

430
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: who wrote the pamphlet had this lens in front of

431
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: him of communism. Uh, it's very similar to me in

432
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: the way this show I would recommend everybody watch if

433
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: you if you have. I think it's oh what is

434
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: on peacock Maybe Um he had a limb, a very

435
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: specific lens that he was looking through, and it colored

436
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: the way he saw all of the evidence that he

437
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: was encountering over the course of this story, and it's

438
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: I think it's very similar to that, And I think

439
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: that's a really great point man that you could kind

440
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: of apply to many conspiracy theories where you have a

441
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: biased lens in front of you that changes the shape

442
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: of what you're looking at. Agreed that I would go

443
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: a step further as well and say that it is

444
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: quite possible that this guy Copel is latching onto something

445
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: that he believes has current public interest as a way

446
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: of popularizing his earlier existing stuff. It's kind of like

447
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: how and I don't want to ruffle any feathers here.

448
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: It's kind of like how the cool youth minister will say, well,

449
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: you know, I I also watched inserts every day TikTok

450
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: video here at What this really makes me think about

451
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: is insert religious dogma uh Like it's it's kind of

452
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: a cynical attempt to connect on a viewpoint and enlarge

453
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: that uh or use that as a means to leverage

454
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: your own indoctrination. That is what I think Capel is

455
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: doing with his self published pamphlet that says, hey, remember

456
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: that famous person. You know, here's the real reason they died.

457
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: It's like the lobby into the mansion of his own

458
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: um communist conspiracies. Well, also nothing to screams credibility like

459
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: self published pamphlet, just putting that out there. Well, but

460
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: I see exactly what you're saying. I think my point

461
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: is just slightly different in that he may have even

462
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: believed it, but because he saw things that maybe weren't there,

463
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: but he that lens caused him to see the communist

464
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: connection as the thing, right, as the connective tissue. If

465
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: you own a chicken farm and you're reading about egg prices,

466
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: you're going to view that through a different lens, right,

467
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: and you can take things from that, from those facts

468
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: and use them, pick the ones that you want to

469
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: use to further support and expand your pre existing stuff.

470
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: We're talking about confirmation bias here. Check out our episode

471
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: on How to Be a Skeptic Part one and tune

472
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: over How to Be a Skeptic Part two. Uh, this theory,

473
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: this alternative narrative to the death of Monroe. It's not

474
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: a national news item yet it's a it's again self

475
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: published kind of zene level pamphlet. It takes the alternative

476
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: narratives take more of a public stage. When famous writer

477
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: and famously not great human being Norman Mailer publishes Maryland

478
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: a Biography v. Three, and he brought up some other

479
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: claims he's another one of the guys who says Monroe

480
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: had an affair with Robert F. Kennedy, and Mailer says

481
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: in his book either the FBI or the CIA carried

482
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: out an assassination specifically so they could get some sort

483
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: of vague leverage. Uh. Mailer describes it as a quote

484
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: point of pressure against the Kennedys. Why would you kill her? Though? Right? Well,

485
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't Wouldn't a point of pressure be way more effective

486
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: if it's a person who's alive, who could talk publicly

487
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: about something, who could mean who could continue to be

488
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: a dynamic actor, right and source of information. That's a

489
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: great question, Matt, And you would probably be good at

490
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: that kind of skilled duggery because you've got a gift

491
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: for the cost benefit there. It's weird the this spawns

492
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: other versions of the theory, and people say the CIA

493
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: said Monroe has to die either because the Kennedy brothers

494
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: shared too many state secrets with her, which made her

495
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: a threat to national security, or because they were quote

496
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: unquote getting even with the Kennedy's for screwing up the

497
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: Bay of Pigs. And the Kennedy's, by the way, did

498
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: not screw up the Bay of Pigs. The the intelligence

499
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: services of the United States screw that up on their

500
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: own completely. I'm just gonna be honest with you. And

501
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: then there's another thing to your point. Norman Mailer, who

502
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: again is a tremendously gifted writer. He goes on an

503
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: interview sixty minutes Mike Wallace, these are the days of

504
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: destination television. Sixty minutes is stuff that people believe when

505
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: they watch it. What does this guy say about his

506
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 1: book when he talks to Mike Wallace? Well, he um,

507
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: he says, yeah, yeah, I don't really believe that. I

508
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: just put it in there because I know people are

509
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: really into it. Like, these are some pretty good names.

510
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: It's got good s. E O gonna sell my book?

511
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: Man if I play the Kennedy's in there with Monroe

512
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: with like maybe she was killed? C I A come on, man,

513
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: these are all great words, great things to put in

514
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: there to sell a book. Let me dance on these

515
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: three graves to move some books. Gross. But ben me,

516
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: you kind of mentioned he's not a super great person.

517
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: Is his reputation as a proper journalist like kind of

518
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: in question pretty significantly. As a fiction author, he's good

519
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: as a person. When you write a book titled the

520
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: Person's Name Colan a biography, I think a lot of

521
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: people are assuming the information in there is going to

522
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: be true, or at least the author probably believes it

523
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: or would say otherwise. No, But isn't it it's it's

524
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: it's consider their nonfiction, right, I mean it's not like

525
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: historical fiction. You would not find it in that category

526
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: in the bookstore. Well, I didn't call it a fictional biography.

527
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 1: And he did cash the checks, was a terrible, terrible person.

528
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: Uh so the uh it's crazy though, right, He openly says,

529
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: I just made that, like, I just thought it would

530
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: sell books. S EO, Like you said, Matt. Uh. Still,

531
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,439
Speaker 1: the public is already hooked, you know, they're into these

532
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: alternative narratives. A guy named Robert F. Slatzer comes along

533
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: in he publishes a book called The Life and Curious

534
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: Death of Marilyn Monroe. And in this book, all right,

535
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: this guy is amazing also probably not a great person,

536
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: says uh, Look, not only did Robert F. Kennedy murder

537
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe for their unproven affair, But I know this

538
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: because me, you're but a Robbie Slatzer was married to

539
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe for like a long weekend in Mexico for

540
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: three days we were married. It's October, n it was

541
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: a beautiful three days in October. Didn't work out, but

542
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: we were close friends until she died. By my book,

543
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: she's I mean, you know, again to to the point

544
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: of what a life it must have been to to

545
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: be Marilyn Monroe. Uh, in such a sexist society. I

546
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: mean you need look no further than all of the

547
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: men that were there to pick up the pieces and

548
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: benefit from her long after she was dead. Guys, what

549
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: is the equivalent of a pamphlet these days? Would we

550
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: say that's like a log post? But really in terms

551
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: of like the barrier to entry, right, you know what

552
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: I mean to talk would qualify. Yeah, I mean that's

553
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: kind of what we're talking about here. Just somebody states

554
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: some something publicly about a very public person, and like,

555
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 1: how do you if you ever saw that thing, how

556
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: could you ever verify any of the information within? I

557
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 1: don't think right. Donald Trump and Joe Biden, neither of

558
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: them have ever come out and explicitly denied having four

559
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: separate cloned bodies, and until they deny that. How are

560
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: we gonna know for sure? Thank you for the comments. Everybody,

561
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: here's a dance like that's like the it's a TikTok equivalent. Sure,

562
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: and you could see that. Yeah, it's an excellent point, Matt,

563
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: because people are taking things as fact at this point

564
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: in history because someone took the time to print them

565
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: out right. Most people don't have home printers at this

566
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: time anyway. So the that same year, we're still in

567
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: the seventies, this journalist Anthony Scaduto publishes an article about

568
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe's death in a magazine called UI, like the

569
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: French word for yes. It is a not for kids magazine.

570
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: It is UH, kind of on the level of Playboy, right,

571
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 1: and which famously had some good journalism Playboy Playboy did.

572
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: Playboy did have some great journalism. And we magazine UH

573
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: gets enough interest from this speculative article about Monroe's death

574
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: that this journalists Gaduto, becomes author and he publishes an

575
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: adaptation a book book link adaptation of the article, and

576
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: he calls it who killed Marilyn Monroe? He publishes it

577
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: under a pen name for one of any imaginable reasons.

578
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: He says Monroe. In this book, he says Monroe kept

579
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 1: a red Diary where wrote down sensitive political information that

580
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: she had heard from the Kennedy brothers while having affairs

581
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: with both of them, that her house had been wire

582
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: tapped on the order of Jimmy Hoffa by a surveillance

583
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: expert named Bernard Spindle, and that Haffa wanted to wire

584
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: tap Monroe as a way of getting incriminating leverage against

585
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: the brothers Kennedy. Is the Red Diary a thing? Or

586
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: is this is an allusion to the idea that it

587
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: was like communists. D I know they're red shoe diaries.

588
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 1: That was a very siliccious television program, Uh, starring David

589
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: Ducovney before The X Files. Uh, but I've never heard

590
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: of the concept of a red diary. I'm just interested. Well,

591
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: this to me is fascinating because it was just the color.

592
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's literally just re afraid of the color

593
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: of the of the of the book. But in a

594
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,479
Speaker 1: way it's functioning as like maybe a red die because

595
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: it is communist, you know, because Chairman Mao Zedong had

596
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: the Little Red Book, which was a pocket size additions say,

597
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: but I've heard about this diary, and I didn't realize

598
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: that this is the place where it where the concept

599
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: even arose. I thought it was later because this is

600
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: we're saying, yeah, when the concept or yeah, that's when

601
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 1: the articles written. So that's interesting. That's really weird, right

602
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 1: because again we see we were watching folklore in real time. Essentially,

603
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: we're seeing these claims get made without factual support and

604
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: then get added to other Uh A big game of telephone,

605
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: a big game of improv yes, and you know, uh,

606
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 1: can we just I was married to her in Mexico

607
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: like a weekend in fifty two and we've been friends

608
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 1: ever since. Um I this is one of the first

609
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: theories well after her death that feels to me like

610
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 1: it could be real, only because she's very, very popular.

611
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: She's been with all of these very powerful popular men.

612
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: The Kennedy brothers are in that same are at that

613
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: same level right of power and influence. It feels like

614
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 1: they like them together. Doesn't feel strange, right either RFK

615
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: or JFK. So I think in the popular mind, when

616
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 1: that concept comes out that they're having affairs with her

617
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: and then using that as your I guess your pillar

618
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: that the rest of your theory stands on uh, as

619
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: she's hearing all kinds of stuff from from them through

620
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: pillow talk or whatever nights out on the town. And

621
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: then she's Babe, I gotta get on the phone with Kissinger. Yeah,

622
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: hold the new let me let me check. I checked

623
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: her recording earlier today. Let's see he is still alive. Uh.

624
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: And if he makes it to make this year, he'll

625
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: be a hundred years old. Congratulation. Always got a check.

626
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: Keep an eye on that guy. But I guess what

627
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying is this theory doesn't seem as outlandish as

628
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,479
Speaker 1: maybe some of the other stuff. I see what you're saying. Yeah,

629
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: it requires a bit. Uh, it requires fewer kind of assumptions.

630
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: It's a shorter bridge of what ifs and if thends.

631
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: Let's fast forward. There's a private investigator, his name Milo Speriglio.

632
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: He publishes a book called Marilyn Monroe Murder Cover Up.

633
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 1: He says, yes, all that other stuff is true, and furthermore, Uh,

634
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: Monroe was actually murdered by half of cooperating with the

635
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: mob boss Sam Gencanna. And this oh yeah, yeah, he's

636
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: bringing half in. Yeah, because half had been mentioned in

637
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 1: a previous book as well. I just mean half of famously,

638
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: you know, disappeared and it was probably murdered by the

639
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: mob too. It's just it's just, you know, conspiracies upon conspiracies,

640
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: just so and and so this guy Spiriglio, his perspective

641
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: leans heavily on that guy slats er Uh famously married

642
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 1: to Marilyn Monroe for three days in Mexico, and U Scaduto,

643
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: who famously brought up half as well. But but Spiriglio

644
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: has got to sell his book, right, so he's got

645
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: another angle on this, and he says, I spoke exclusively

646
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 1: with a former employee at the l A County Coroner's office.

647
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: His name Lionel Grandison, and my buddy Lionel has some

648
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: interesting stuff to say. He says he saw that red

649
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: diary and it disappeared. He said that there were bruises

650
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: on Marou's cadaver that we're not mentioned in the autopsy.

651
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: And this garners more stuff in the zeit guys. The

652
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: public conversation continues, the pressure gets too much for one

653
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: reason or another. L A's District attorney says, we're going

654
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: to review the case. And as we noted in their review,

655
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: they did not find any evidence that, in their opinion,

656
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: could support murder charges. But if you already believe these conspiracies,

657
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: and you've just been buying these books and reading these things,

658
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: then them saying there is no evidence from far enough away,

659
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: it looks like evidence all its own, and the absence

660
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: of something becomes the evidence of what that thing is lacking.

661
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm saying. Uh Why why has

662
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: uh why why has insert world leader here never come

663
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: out directly and said that Bigfoot does not exist? You know,

664
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: why are you afraid? Right? Like, it's that kind of thing.

665
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: But the why the problem is, let's go back to

666
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: the true crime angle, the wire tapping, right. The thing

667
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: about wire tapping is if you are surveilling someone in

668
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: that time, there's no cloud to upload stuff too, there's

669
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: no encrypted server. You would be working analog and we

670
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 1: know this. Um you know, Matt, No, You're both tremendously

671
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: talented in the world of audio visual stuff. So am

672
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: I correct in saying that back at the time of

673
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: Monroe's death, there would have had to be physical tape

674
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: if you were a wire tapping, which which takes you know,

675
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it probably would have been you know, they

676
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: would have been using some sort of like a Nagra

677
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 1: type tape machine, which is like a small real to

678
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: reel machine that uses the same type of tape that

679
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: you'd use like in a cassette or on like a

680
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: larger form out real too real. But they're smaller reel,

681
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: so they could have stored they could store more of

682
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: them than they would like say, large format real to

683
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 1: reel tape. But still yeah, physical storage absolutely necessary. Um.

684
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: But we also know at the time, I mean, you know,

685
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: tons of people were being we're having tabs kept on

686
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: them by the FBI for example, you know John Lennon,

687
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: you know famously Martin Luther King though Martin Luther the

688
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: MLK tapes, a podcast that Matt you worked on. Um.

689
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: So this is definitely just a time almost like you

690
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: know East West Germany kind of you know divide where

691
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: there was just this paranoia and this kind of thing

692
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: was sort of par for the course just from you know,

693
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: in that era. But if there were things at stake

694
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: of the things that we're talking about here, like state

695
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: secrets with national security concerns, you wouldn't suspect a private

696
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: investigator to be the one carrying out that surveillance. Now

697
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: you're right, right, you're right about that. Well, lest you

698
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: need a plausible deniability, Yeah, that's that's a badger her

699
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: for another bag, I think, Yeah, yeah, you're right. And

700
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: and the issue is that the wire tapping claims, Okay,

701
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say they're categorically false, but we

702
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: do know that the Manhattan District Attorney raided Old Bernard

703
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: Spindel's home in nineteen sixty six and they took everything

704
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: Gary Oldman style everyone, and they took everything. Uh. Spindle

705
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 1: would later claim that he had in fact wire tapped

706
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: the Monroe household, but there was no record of this

707
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: on the tape. So now you have to kind of

708
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: figure out are you going to be skeptical? Are you

709
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: going to be conspiratorial? Is that absence of evidence evidence

710
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: of a further cover up? Or is the fact that

711
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: four years had passed since her death and she's a

712
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: very you know, well known person. If you were wire

713
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: tapping her, would you keep that stuff around? I don't know.

714
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: Maybe you got rid of it, maybe he did, Maybe

715
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: it was maybe someone got rid of it for you

716
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: and buddy, yeah, or sold it to a private collector

717
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: in Hollywood and There are a lot of creepy versions

718
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: of those. Check out our episode on serial killer merchandizing

719
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: That one still bothers me. Uh So Lionel Grandison, this

720
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: was the exclusive right from the coroner's office. Uh he

721
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: claimed there were all these cover ups on the autopsy.

722
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: He said, I've seen that notorious red diary. It's a

723
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: real problem, is all. L G is not what you

724
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: would call a reliable witness. He had been fired from

725
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: the Corners office not because he was trying to share

726
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: the truth with the world. He was fired because, I

727
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: kid you not, he just could not stop stealing stuff

728
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: from dead bodies. That was like, that was his motivation,

729
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: which calls into question his motivation for suddenly quote unquote

730
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: realizing stuff in the nineteen eighties, you see curiouser and curiouser.

731
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: But to that question about hafa uh that we're bringing up,

732
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: the mob angle still has some adherents. As a matter

733
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: of fact, in that mob boss's brother and a godson

734
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: collaboratively published a book called Double Cross, and in that

735
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: book they say that the CIA put out a contract

736
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: on Marilyn monrose life because of her affair with Robert Kennedy,

737
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: and that they have they have it on good authority

738
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: that Giancana, the mob boss, accepted the contract in green

739
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: lit it. At this point, you know, it does give

740
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: you a little pause, even if you're very skeptical, because

741
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: the the U S Intelligence Services have multiple have concluded

742
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: and cooperated with mafia organized crime in the US multiple times.

743
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: It's proven they did conspire. It's not a theory. But

744
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: why would they again, why would they? Why would they

745
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: put out a hit on on this Marilyn Monroe figure.

746
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: I think we we gotta take a break for a

747
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors, and UH will come back to

748
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: look at how these conspiracies continue to proliferate. And we've returned.

749
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: Maybe we fast forward to the nineteen eighties. In the

750
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, British journalist but the name of Anthony Summers

751
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: published his take called Goddess the Secret Lie Eyes of

752
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe, where he claimed that Monroe had serious substance

753
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: abuse issues UH and was experiencing UH some form of

754
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: mental breakdown of psychotic episodes in the last months of

755
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 1: her life. He claimed the Monroe had affairs not only

756
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: with Robert F. Kennedy, but also with John F. Kennedy

757
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: and that she only threatened to go public when Robert

758
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: ended their affair. Um So, Summer's argues that RFK actually

759
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: continued to enable Monroe in her addictions. RFK enabled didn't

760
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: We just didn't we not long ago talking about how

761
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: JFK had a little drug problem. It wasn't little pretty

762
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: tall milkshake. Yeah, and actually that's you may be alluding

763
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: to our previous episode on president US Presidents and drugs.

764
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: The story is the one where he was supposedly running

765
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: naked around a hote, right, Yeah, he did that part

766
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: that was that was that was old Johnny. Um, I

767
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: think that was Johnny. There were there were a lot

768
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: of US presidents who were, uh not good teetotalers. They

769
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: were definitely not straight edge, and uh they were definitely

770
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: a few intoxicated moments away from making some very bad

771
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: decisions that would result in the deaths of billions. But yeah,

772
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: che chef equittic. Yeah, uh just don't don't take vacations

773
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: with Kennedy's. Definitely don't take rides at night. Uh So

774
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: this this is the issue. The idea is that Robert

775
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 1: Kennedy doesn't want Marilyn Monroe to go public about this. Affair,

776
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: and so he plies her with drugs. That's the idea.

777
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: The issue with that, as Lee, is that if you

778
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: want someone to die, there are much more direct ways

779
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: to do it that would also in avoid having your

780
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 1: hand on the trigger. Right, So is your first reaction

781
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 1: two lay out a mouse trap of what ifs and

782
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: just hope someone overdoses. Doesn't seem like a plan with

783
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: a very high likelihood of success. And apologies for that

784
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: accidental pun using the word high anyway, Like all right,

785
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: this Summer's guy. He says that what happened is that

786
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe became quote unquote hysterical and she accidentally overdosed

787
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 1: on all these drugs, these morobituates that were within her reach,

788
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: and that an ambulance was called, and there is a

789
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: guy who later swears he drove the ambulance. An ambulance

790
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 1: was called. Menroe codes out and dies on the way

791
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: to the hospital. Robbie Kennedy wants to leave l A

792
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: before the death becomes public, wants to avoid all these

793
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 1: messy associations. So the story goes he had her corpse

794
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 1: returned to her home and then off the book's government

795
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: agents staged that overdose as a suicide. More extreme versions

796
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: of this conspiracy theory will say that she was murdered

797
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: and that she was The drugs that were found in

798
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 1: her system were administered after the point of death via

799
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: enema rather than oral ingestion, like if you were taking pills.

800
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 1: Someone put the drugs all the way up her system

801
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: from the opposite side a postmortem, just to just to

802
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: have the autopsy reflect different versions of it. But that

803
00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: seems like a lot of a lot of intestine highway

804
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 1: way to go through, doesn't it. Wait? Wait, it got

805
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: into her stomach from the bottom into her system, that's

806
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: the idea, And it just it seems that seems far fetched, right.

807
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: That seems like tough to understand. Wouldn't it be easier

808
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: to insert substances via the via the throat? Right? It

809
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: just seems like, yeah, yeah, I don't know, I don't know,

810
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: but I yeah, yeah. But the thing is, again, there

811
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,479
Speaker 1: are a lot of what ifs. It's important to note

812
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: here that Summers is not a fly by night fringe dude.

813
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: You know, he has done a lot of legit journalism,

814
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,240
Speaker 1: but later biographers have serious problems with his work. They say, Okay,

815
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 1: it's too much speculation. You're relying too much on questionable

816
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: witnesses who only have second or third hand knowledge. You're

817
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: accepting it as fact, and then those claims one accepted

818
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 1: as fact become the basis for more claims, more books,

819
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: cynically put, more publishing deals. Then there's folks like Donald Spoto,

820
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: who wrote Maryland Monroe the Biography not a biography. You

821
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: see how the publishers enjoy fighting on that one. Uh,

822
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: this comes out and he poses a theory that's a

823
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: little more plausible according to him. Monroe's two doctors that

824
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: Matt you mentioned at the top, her psychiatrist and her

825
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: personal physician, Greenson and Ingelberg, respectively, have been trying to

826
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: stop her abusing a drug with the brand name Nimbutal,

827
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 1: which I believe is a barbiturate animal, is how I

828
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: would say it. Uh, yeah, it's it is something that

829
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: was prescribed for people who we're dealing with insomnia, but

830
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: that's not really what it was, you know, fully meant for.

831
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 1: That was something that it got prescribed for as almost

832
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: like a side gig for the drug. Well again, same

833
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: with that Michael Jackson drug propofile that was you know,

834
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: usually used I believe as a sedative like on operating tables,

835
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: but instead it was prescribed to help him sleep. So

836
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: here's this story with this stuff pinto barbaital or nimbootal uh.

837
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: The the idea was that these these two medical professionals,

838
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: we're concerned about the possibility of addiction. They thought they

839
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: were already addictive behaviors occurring. So they said, we're going

840
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: to team up. We're gonna vultron up, we're gonna monitor

841
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: our patients drug use and we'll crack bargain. We are

842
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: never gonna prescribe this person anything unless we talk to

843
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: each other. Dude, you and me, we're going to talk

844
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,360
Speaker 1: and we're going to figure out what's appropriate because this

845
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: person be telling us different stories to maximize the amount

846
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: of prescriptions they can obtain. Apparently, again, according to Spotto,

847
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: Monroe was able to persuade one of these guys, her

848
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: personal physician, to break his promise simply by saying, oh,

849
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: my other doctor, my psychiatrist. Greenson agreed and said it's

850
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: okay to prescribe insert here to meet the nimbutal and

851
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: she took several of these on August four, but she

852
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 1: didn't tell that to Greenson, who prescribed her a chloral

853
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: hydrate enema, and according to this biographer, it's the combination

854
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: of those two drugs that killed her, So that's an

855
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: accidental overdose. His argument is that those doctors then, with

856
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: the help of the housekeeper, orchestrated the cover up to

857
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: save themselves from the consequences. Well, I'm just learning what

858
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: that is. What is it chloral hydrate? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

859
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: it's another sedative. It's for the discriminating, animistic in the crowd. Yeah,

860
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: got it. Okay, So it was just it was too

861
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 1: much sedative basically, right, Yeah, so an accidental overdose it

862
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: would have been. It's used in uh, it's still used

863
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 1: in the short term treatment of insomnia. So if we

864
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: step back for a moment, is definitely undeniably a tragedy.

865
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: The majority of deaths are. But the conspiracies again seemed

866
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: built on some kind of shaky foundations. If you look

867
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: at the timeline of the claims and you look at

868
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 1: what's being purported as fact versus what can actually be proven,

869
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: it's gonna be startling. Because I was guilty of this

870
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: in the past. The one of the biggest questionable things

871
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: is the notion of the Kennedy affairs, the idea that

872
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: Monroe was sleeping with both uh Johnny and Robbie Kennedy.

873
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 1: Actually it's tough to get that to bear up. They

874
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 1: met J. F. Gammon, Row, for instance, only met four times,

875
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: and three of those times were public meetings. So maybe

876
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: we can just do a quick quote from Donald Spoto,

877
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 1: which is again one of my I think, one of

878
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 1: the pre eminent biographers. Here he says, quote, no serious

879
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 1: biographer can maintain the existence of an affair between Maryland

880
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 1: and the Kennedy's. All we can say for sure is

881
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: that the actress and the president have met four times

882
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: between October nineteen sixty one in August nineteen sixty two,

883
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 1: and it was during one of those meetings that they

884
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: called to a friendly relation of Maryland from a bedroom.

885
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: Shortly after, Maryland confided the sexual relation to her close relatives,

886
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 1: insisting about the fact that their affair ended there. So

887
01:01:55,440 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: the idea is they slept together once I getten. The

888
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: idea that she was having uh an ongoing affair with

889
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: both brothers can currently has not been confirmed. I just

890
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: you know this this Donald Spotto talks about no serious

891
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 1: biographer and I think I've been beating my head against

892
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: this this whole episode, like or any of these biographers

893
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: serious and what does it take to be a serious

894
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: biographer's keep? There's so many of these allegations that are

895
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: in these mass produced works, you know, of quote unquote nonfiction.

896
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 1: I mean, can you just say whatever you want about somebody?

897
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: Is there no estate that's vetting the stuff and that's

898
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: filing lawsuits. I just feel like some of the stuff

899
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 1: is so inflammatory and and and bordering on slanderous. I

900
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: just don't understand how there's there's been no direct litigation

901
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: or backlash and into some of these claims. I mean,

902
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: you can write around it right, say that there are

903
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: claims of someone that with whom you interviewed for this book,

904
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 1: for that kind of you know, and they knew someone

905
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:08,439
Speaker 1: who had been at the same ball game as Joe

906
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 1: DiMaggio's second cousin who in the restroom said there was

907
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: some stuff up with the Monroe death. That's yeah, it's true.

908
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: And unfortunately it's ghoulish to um to capitalize on these tragedies. Again,

909
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, you don't have to like celebrities. I certainly

910
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: don't respect the concept and I think it's gross, but

911
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 1: if you're going to be a decent person, this is

912
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: this is someone who was trying their best and at

913
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 1: the age of thirty six, they died. And that's horrific,

914
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, And it's and it's happening now multiple times

915
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: as we record this episode today, and the due to

916
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: the nature of society, the famous ones get more attention,

917
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: whether or not there should be more attention, like think

918
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: of God, the statistics would be staggering if you looked

919
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: at how many people in their thirties in twenty two

920
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: died under questionable circumstances and how little investigation was put

921
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: into their deaths. That's why I think that's another I'm

922
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: getting a look from Matt Okay, that's another conspiracy though,

923
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it. Anyway, back to Monroe, that's where

924
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: the case remains today. The affairs, the Kennedy Monroe affairs,

925
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:32,160
Speaker 1: have never been officially confirmed. They are treated as fact

926
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: in the vast majority of narratives about this, and that

927
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: is unfair to you as an audience member. They are

928
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: at the heart of many conspiratorial narratives and there have

929
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: been multiple claims about discrepancies and autopsies, the ideas that

930
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: these drugs were administered via enema, that they're going to

931
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: fake a suicide with it. This stuff is not often

932
01:04:54,840 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: taken seriously, But what we should take seriously is the

933
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: fact that someone innocent died. Right And if if you

934
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: have struggled with addiction or you know someone who has,

935
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: then you know that there is a huge difference between

936
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: an accidental overdose and intentional suicide. Right. Uh. And furthermore,

937
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: this leads us to another conversation that will come up

938
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 1: in future episodes. Folks, what do you think was Monroe's

939
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 1: death a tragic overdose? Was there something more to the story?

940
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 1: Are there other celebrities or people of note that you

941
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:43,919
Speaker 1: believe were murdered in secret? Um, I'm gonna say yes. Uh.

942
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: Our old buddy dag from the United Nations definitely murdered

943
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: in a plane crash. No one talks about that one,

944
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: No Dag Hammer scold yeah, uh yeah. What do you

945
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 1: What do you think about this new Netflix documentary that

946
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: came out last year, I guess relatively new, The Mystery

947
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 1: of Marilyn Monroe colon the Unheard Tapes? What do you

948
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 1: think about that? Also off off Mike we're talking with

949
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: Paul about this very inflammatory film you know, um fictionalized

950
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 1: account I guess, or biopic or whatever called blonde um

951
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: that you know it was rated in C seventeen. Famously,

952
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 1: I think we've got more pressed for that than actually

953
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 1: being any good. Um. So yeah, let us know if

954
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,600
Speaker 1: he saw that too, I would love to you're saying

955
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 1: right now, but how on earth do I get in

956
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: touch with you? Well, we have good news. You can

957
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: find us on all the social media hits, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, MySpace,

958
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 1: farmers only, uh, YouTube were some variation of conspiracy stuff

959
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: or conspiracy stuff show at that? Uh? And you might say, wait, no,

960
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 1: don't end the show yet. I hate social media. I

961
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 1: don't sip the social meds. I need to talk to

962
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,920
Speaker 1: you on the phone. I have a story to tell

963
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 1: Matt Noel, can we help those folks help? What can

964
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: we ever? Three S T D W Y T K

965
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 1: is the number to call Matt. What do they do

966
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: when they get us? Throw your phone out the window?

967
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 1: That's step one. Step two is yelled to your phone

968
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: for about three minutes whatever you want to say to it,

969
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 1: and make sure you call yourself a you know, a

970
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: nickname something fun. Make sure we can hear it. You know,

971
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 1: I guess yelled pretty loudly. Uh, and that's really all.

972
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: Let us know if we can use your name and

973
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: voice on one of our listener mail episodes. If you

974
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: don't want to do that whole thing and it sounds

975
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 1: like too much, why not instead send us a good

976
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 1: old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heeart radio

977
01:07:44,280 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 1: dot com. Ye stuff they don't want you to know

978
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts

979
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

980
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.