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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: This is Everybody's business from Bloomberg Business Week.

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Speaker 3: I'm Stacy Bannocksmith.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Max Chafkin.

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Speaker 5: Stacey Today's show, the big media story, the love triangle exactly.

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Speaker 5: Are all the streaming apps just going to be one

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Speaker 5: big streaming app? Netflix came for Warner Brothers, Paramount came

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Speaker 5: for Warner Brothers.

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Speaker 2: Listed in on the wedding ceremony declaring love.

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Speaker 5: And now Trump is there somewhere adjudicating this.

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Speaker 4: It's a big showdown.

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Speaker 5: We're going to talk about where it's going with our

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Speaker 5: friend Lucas Shaw and the big question, the important question

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Speaker 5: is what is the future of media.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we also have the Virgis Neelie Buttel joining us

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Speaker 2: to talk about Trump's new move which is going to

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Speaker 2: allow Nvidia to sell chips to China. This has been

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Speaker 2: a source of major controversy kind of market forces versus

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Speaker 2: national security for long time.

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Speaker 3: We're really lucky to have him to talk about that.

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Speaker 5: And we're going to talk about two underrated aspects of

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Speaker 5: two very well known subjects. One is the World Cup,

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Speaker 5: which I hope we talking about, and Stacy.

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Speaker 3: Federal Reserve, I love the Federal Reserve.

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Speaker 4: We donet help herself talk about it enough.

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Speaker 3: I think about it.

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Speaker 2: It's my Roman Empire, Stacy.

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Speaker 5: We've got a great, very meaty show about two really

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Speaker 5: important topics. Before we get there, I turn on my

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Speaker 5: computer this morning, open the laptop, and the big story

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Speaker 5: as we're recording this on Thursday, December eleventh, is Oracle,

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Speaker 5: which is a really big, very valuable tech company that

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Speaker 5: is probably underappreciated. It has come to sort of symbolize

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Speaker 5: everything that is maybe enticing about the AI bubble for investors,

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Speaker 5: but also some of the dangers because they've been spending

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Speaker 5: just gobs and gobs of money on data centers, and

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Speaker 5: they have this plan for AI. They have all these

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Speaker 5: deals with the Trump administration and with Sam Altman. Anyway,

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Speaker 5: Oracle reported earnings. The earnings were a little bit below estimates,

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Speaker 5: that they missed their estimates. And then the big thing

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Speaker 5: is they said that they're going to spend Instead of

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Speaker 5: spending fifteen billion dollars next year, they're going to spend

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Speaker 5: fifty billion dollars.

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Speaker 4: So big difference there on data centers to capital expend. Wow,

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Speaker 4: but data centers are the big.

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Speaker 6: Part of that.

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Speaker 3: I'm missing earnings expectations.

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Speaker 2: At this moment, when people are just throwing money into

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Speaker 2: the markets, throwing money at tech companies, that is a

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Speaker 2: really bad sign.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And look, I would not bring this up because

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Speaker 5: what happens over any couple of hours in the stock market,

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Speaker 5: well that can be very exciting for me.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it Ultimately, the animal spirit.

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Speaker 5: Doesn't necessarily mean anything. The numbers here are pretty big.

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Speaker 5: Oracle was down as much as sixteen percent this morning

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Speaker 5: as we're talking. Now, I think it's a bit up

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Speaker 5: a little bit, there's no down thirteen percent. But the

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Speaker 5: real the thing, really, i'd say a little bit concerning

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Speaker 5: here is when you look when you zoom out a

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Speaker 5: little bit and look at where Oracle stock has gone

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Speaker 5: since their last big AI announcement. It's down like over

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Speaker 5: thirty five percent, So like there's been a steep drop off.

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Speaker 5: And if you're like thinking, like, what does this remind

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Speaker 5: me of? When was there a time in the economy

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Speaker 5: when Oracle seemed very valuable and then suddenly became much

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Speaker 5: much less valuable. It's the two thousand and two thousand

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Speaker 5: and one tech bust, and like the Oracle stock chart

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Speaker 5: from that period, it looks pretty similar to the Oracle

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Speaker 5: stock chart today. Now again we'll see like it's I also.

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Speaker 2: Think investors, because tech stocks have become such a huge

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Speaker 2: part of our economy and are like really the engine

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Speaker 2: powering it right now, everybody's so jumpy for any kind

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Speaker 2: of bad news that if there's anything that even looks

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Speaker 2: like a hint of the AI explosive growth being a bubble,

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Speaker 2: everybody loses it and starts selling their stocks.

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Speaker 3: I just feel like everybody's so jumpy.

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Speaker 5: Or conversely, any sign of positive right can send the

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Speaker 5: markets up, like Alex Karp does something cool. Alex Carp,

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Speaker 5: the CEO of Palanteer, doesn't mean cool on stage or whatever,

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Speaker 5: and everyone's like, oh yeahinues AI is going to save us.

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Speaker 5: And and conversely Oracle like missus earnings and all of

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Speaker 5: a sudden everyone's freaking out.

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Speaker 3: Animal spirits are running wild, well the markets these days.

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Speaker 5: We'll talk about this in the conversation with Neli Patel,

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Speaker 5: but like it really feels like we're at this kind

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Speaker 5: of inflection point, and some of the some of the

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Speaker 5: stuff that's happening I think in Washington with Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: and with in video which which like you said in

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Speaker 5: video is one of those stocks that fell down about

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Speaker 5: four percent as we're talking now, I think, you know,

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Speaker 5: in response to this kind of like vibes thing, Trump administration,

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Speaker 5: Silicon Valley, even us, right, we all want to keep

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Speaker 5: this bubble going.

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Speaker 2: I really want the bubble to keep going. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if it's like or to deflate very gently, a gentle deflation.

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Speaker 4: Right, because a sudden deflation really devastating.

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Speaker 3: Of course, Together big story this week is.

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Speaker 2: This big entertainment industry merger triangle thing. Like you said,

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Speaker 2: Warner Brothers seem to be locking things down with Netflix

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Speaker 2: that has been thrown into question. Paramounts stepped in with

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Speaker 2: an offer of its own. We sent our reporter Charlie

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Speaker 2: Gorvin out into the streets of Brooklyn to ask people

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Speaker 2: if they had opinions on this merger, and here is

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Speaker 2: what they said.

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Speaker 7: In particular, with the WVD and Netflix merger, there's a

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Speaker 7: lot of creative projects that will get canned and a

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Speaker 7: lot of people will lose work because of it.

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Speaker 5: It just kind of perpetuates the idea that nobody wants

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Speaker 5: to go to the movies and watch films anymore.

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Speaker 7: Undoubtedly, like the quality goes down.

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Speaker 8: Literally, people say, like the Netflix look, which is like,

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Speaker 8: you know, people flat lighting, it's just cheesy, no production design.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So where do you guys mostly get your concept from.

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Speaker 1: Well, we go to the movies a lot.

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Speaker 4: You go to the movies at least once a week.

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Speaker 7: I'd rather go to a movie theater to see something

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Speaker 7: new then wait for it to come out on streaming.

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Speaker 7: I have friends who work in the like Hollywood business,

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Speaker 7: and so anytime I see news like that, it's kind

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Speaker 7: of hard to stomach that, like, those are my friends

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Speaker 7: that are losing their jobs. There is like an underlying

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Speaker 7: current of people being like, this isn't right. Yeah, it

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Speaker 7: doesn't feel right. So maybe my hope is that and

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Speaker 7: I have hope that going forward there will be some

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Speaker 7: sort of rubber band pushed back that people will want

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Speaker 7: to see much more creator driven stories and whatnot.

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Speaker 5: All right, So I appreciate this perspective because what we're

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Speaker 5: hearing there is, you know a bunch of people who

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Speaker 5: are invested in one way or another in kind of

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Speaker 5: like preserving some competition in Hollywood. And if if you

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Speaker 5: talk to screenwriters or creatives in the industry, right like,

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Speaker 5: they are very concerned about this because removing a POTENTI

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Speaker 5: bitter from a creative project, which is what this will

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Speaker 5: do is going to be bad for them. I also

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Speaker 5: think this shows that maybe Greenpoint Brooklyn is not representative

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Speaker 5: of the United States.

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Speaker 2: I would be interested if they like Greenpoint Brooklyn versus

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Speaker 2: Wall Street. Like, ask a bunch of people like coming

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Speaker 2: out of the Goldman.

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Speaker 3: Sachs Building how they feel about it. I feel like

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Speaker 3: you might.

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Speaker 5: They're like, it's all these Maybe I think you might

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Speaker 5: get a different perspective that that I would be here

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Speaker 5: for that.

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Speaker 3: You know it all it's location, location, location, Right.

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Speaker 5: We're going to go into the next segment, but before

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Speaker 5: we do, Stacy got to remind people for our twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty six Predictions episodes.

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Speaker 4: We need magic gate Ball, we need your predictions.

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Speaker 5: We want to know what you think is going to

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Speaker 5: happen in the economy, in the world of business in

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 4: Send us an email.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's companies, AI Strides, people in the news, Elon Musk's next.

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Speaker 4: Move, next baby ever?

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Speaker 2: Yes, number thirteen, No, Stacy, Stacy naive?

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Speaker 5: You naive anyway? Everybody's with an asset Bloomberg dot Net.

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Speaker 5: Send us an email or if you really like us

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Speaker 5: send us a voice memo that we would love to play.

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Speaker 5: We'd love to hear some of your voices on that episode. Yes,

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Speaker 5: Stacy will critique you. Yes, no, she won't.

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Speaker 2: She'll hopefully only compliment, only compliments.

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Speaker 4: All right, let's go to our chat.

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Speaker 3: With mecas so Max.

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Speaker 2: One of the big stories this week obviously, has had

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Speaker 2: to do with the movies and entertainment and a hostile takeover.

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Speaker 5: You know, Stacy, I have been a business news reporter

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Speaker 5: for like twenty years, and there's nothing we like better

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Speaker 5: than a hostile takeover.

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Speaker 4: It is fun, it is good stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it does bring a lot of drama into what

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Speaker 2: can be kind of like dry corporate doings. But we

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Speaker 2: have the perfect person here to talk about this with us,

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Speaker 2: Lucas Shaw, author of the screen Time newsletter.

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Speaker 3: Lucas, thank you for joining.

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Speaker 1: Us, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: So if we look at this.

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Speaker 2: As sort of a cinematic love triangle, what is actually

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Speaker 2: going on?

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Speaker 3: Where do things stand right now?

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Speaker 8: Well, Warner Brothers has agreed to sell itself to Netflix,

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Speaker 8: the streaming giant, the most valuable, biggest entertainment company in

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Speaker 8: the world right now.

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Speaker 3: And it's just parts of itself. Is that right.

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Speaker 8: It is selling its studio, which is the biggest TV

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Speaker 8: studio in Hollywood and one of the biggest movie studios

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Speaker 8: in Hollywood, as well as its streaming service and the

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Speaker 8: broader HBO business. It is not selling all of the

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Speaker 8: other TV networks like CNNTNT, TBS, Discovery and so forth.

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Speaker 8: Netflix triumphed after a sort of a two month, six

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Speaker 8: week auction against Comcast and Paramount. Paramount initiated this process

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Speaker 8: by trying to just buy Warner Brothers Discovery starting a

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Speaker 8: few months ago with some unsolicited offers, and Paramount, which

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Speaker 8: is controlled by the Allison family Larry Ellison, the billionaire

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Speaker 8: co founder of Oracle, his son David Ellison, newly appointed

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Speaker 8: media mogul and CEO of Paramounts Guidance. They were not

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Speaker 8: happy that Warner Brothers chose Netflix. They felt that their

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Speaker 8: offer was better. They felt that the process was unfair,

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Speaker 8: and so they launched sort of a pseudle hostile takeover

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Speaker 8: the monday after Warner Brothers and Netflix announced their deal.

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Speaker 8: And so now we're in this process. You want to

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Speaker 8: call it a love triangle, we can call it whatever

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Speaker 8: we want. Where the most valuable entertainment company in the

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Speaker 8: world and an entertainment company controlled by the second richest

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Speaker 8: man in the world are both competing for the affection

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Speaker 8: of Warner Brothers. And they're not just trying to charm

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Speaker 8: the Warner Brothers board and shareholders. They are also trying

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Speaker 8: to charm the president and sort of any potential regulators

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Speaker 8: who could stand in the way of the victor.

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Speaker 2: I did want to say before we go forward that

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Speaker 2: there is a little bit of a difference. But these

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Speaker 2: two offers, the Netflix offer was made with company leadership,

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Speaker 2: whereas the Paramount offer is a so called hostile takeover

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Speaker 2: under offer where they just go straight to the shareholders.

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Speaker 2: They basically go around company leadership.

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Speaker 5: Lucas, what does this mean for like the for entertainment,

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Speaker 5: for like from the from the point of view of

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Speaker 5: somebody who just is interested in like watching movies and

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Speaker 5: and like who's following this news and wondering, like, okay,

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Speaker 5: like if if Netflix buys Warner what does it mean

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Speaker 5: for me in terms of how much are going to

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Speaker 5: pay for screen streaming services? What does it mean in

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Speaker 5: terms of the kinds of movies that are going to

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Speaker 5: be offered to me? There is this feeling like the

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Speaker 5: movie theater business has been struggling, and like it is

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Speaker 5: this like the death Noel. You have the company that

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Speaker 5: like bet heavily in a lot of ways against theatrical releases,

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Speaker 5: swallowing one of the most important movie studios potentially anyway,

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Speaker 5: Like how what is how much does this change? Sort

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Speaker 5: of like the creative side of the business.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's two different answers. I guess there's the consumer

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Speaker 8: part of it and the kind of the B to

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Speaker 8: B entertainment industry part. Both seem to be outraged about

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Speaker 8: this deal, as the consumer impact to me is much

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Speaker 8: harder to predict and also likely not as grave as

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Speaker 8: people would believe, right, because.

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Speaker 5: A scary scenario if you're a consumer is like okay,

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Speaker 5: Like now Netflix is like jacked up its prices pretty

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Speaker 5: significantly over the last few years. Now they're going to

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Speaker 5: own both HBO and Netflix, They're going to have tons

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Speaker 5: of pricing power. Like long run, we are going to

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Speaker 5: be paying more than we were twenty years ago before

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Speaker 5: when all these futurists told us that streaming was gonna

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Speaker 5: make our cable bill less.

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Speaker 8: It's already more expensive. So streaming came around. Netflix came

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Speaker 8: around as a much more affordable alternative to cable, which

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Speaker 8: it was. It was a superior product at a lower price,

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Speaker 8: and that's why million of people signed up for it.

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Speaker 8: Now over time, there's been more and more competition, and

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Speaker 8: so all these services came in at low prices to

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Speaker 8: sign people up. But they're all raising prices, right. Peacock's

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Speaker 8: more expensive, Paramountlus is more expensive, Disney Plus is more expensive,

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Speaker 8: who lose more expensive. So if you add together all

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Speaker 8: of the streaming services of the major entertainment companies, it

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Speaker 8: costs more than cable would. Now you can also access

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Speaker 8: more but the notion of streaming as a budget alternative

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Speaker 8: is mostly gone away. But I think the average person

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Speaker 8: doesn't pay for all of them, right, They pay for

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Speaker 8: two or three or four. The concern about Netflix raising prices,

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Speaker 8: I guess, on the one hand, short they will have

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Speaker 8: more market power, they will be able to raise prices.

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Speaker 8: I think they're going to do that anyways. The contrarian

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Speaker 8: take I have on that a little bit is like

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Speaker 8: they want to get HBO to sort of bundle them,

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Speaker 8: and further like that's like first of all, and Ne'slix

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Speaker 8: isn't doing the still for HBO. They're doing it for

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Speaker 8: Warner Brothers. They want the catalogs, they want the library,

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Speaker 8: but adding HBO, they will probably bundle it, at least

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Speaker 8: initially at a discount or the package deal at least

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Speaker 8: in the short term is lower. So I don't think

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Speaker 8: the damage to consumers immediately is lower prices. The bigger

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Speaker 8: risk is what does it mean to the balance of

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Speaker 8: power in the industry and how will Netflix exert that

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Speaker 8: power in a way that both harms creative people and

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Speaker 8: may ultimately affect the consumer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Key point though is short term, because I think in

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Speaker 5: the long run they will raise prices, and whether it's

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Speaker 5: a direct whether they're directly raising prices or in the

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Speaker 5: way that like the way lots of people use streaming now, right,

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Speaker 5: because of the point you just made is they will

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Speaker 5: drop services and pick them up when they're watching a show.

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Speaker 5: But if you bundle, if you make the bundle bigger,

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Speaker 5: it's just like cable, right, Like if you create a

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Speaker 5: situation where it's all bundled together, you know you can

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Speaker 5: no longer do that. You can't drop HBO after you're

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Speaker 5: done with the pit and move on to like what's

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Speaker 5: a Netflix show, the Diddy documentary or.

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Speaker 1: Whatever started it? Last night. Same.

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Speaker 8: Yes, it's probably worth noting that Netflix has the lowest

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Speaker 8: churn by far in the business, so I don't I

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Speaker 8: think for the most part, people don't do the toggle

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Speaker 8: on and off with Netflix in the way that they

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Speaker 8: do with HBO and others. I don't know if it's

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Speaker 8: a good news or bad news for you that the

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Speaker 8: new season of The Pit is coming back next month,

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Speaker 8: so you'll be having to re up your HBO subscription.

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Speaker 8: But yeah, it would give them a lot more pricing power.

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Speaker 8: I think we're frankly already sort of headed in that direction,

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Speaker 8: just in terms of the way that everyone has been

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Speaker 8: raising prices. So I don't know how much this particular

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Speaker 8: deal will influence it. I think it's I understand the

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Speaker 8: concerns that, say a producer would have that Netflix, which

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Speaker 8: already feels like the eight hundred pound gerrilla in Hollywood,

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Speaker 8: would suddenly look invincible in many ways.

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Speaker 3: What do you think is the ideal outcome?

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Speaker 2: I guess from an economic point of view, like which

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Speaker 2: of the pairings makes more sense to you as a business.

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Speaker 8: I don't know if this is the answer from an

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Speaker 8: economic point of view, but what I would say is,

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Speaker 8: if you look Over the history of Netflix, it has

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Speaker 8: generally been a very well run company, right, whereas Paramount

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Speaker 8: has been a total show for fifteen years, if not longer.

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Speaker 8: Now it's under new leadership. We'll see what it's like

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Speaker 8: under David Ellison. But if you ask me if I'm

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Speaker 8: looking at Warner Brothers as a valuable asset that produces

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Speaker 8: things that I care about, right, HBO is one of

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Speaker 8: the great producers of television in the history.

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Speaker 1: Of the business.

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Speaker 8: Warner Brothers has been one of the great film and

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Speaker 8: television studios for the last century. It too, has suffered

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Speaker 8: from years of sort of changing ownership, which has made

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Speaker 8: it very hard for them to set a coherent strategy.

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Speaker 8: I would say, in at least a couple of those owners'

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Speaker 8: cases of mismanagement, I would lean Netflix. I think they'll

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Speaker 8: do a better job with it, and they have a

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Speaker 8: more obvious need for it, right. I think there are

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Speaker 8: reasons to worry about Netflix's plans for movies, or reasons

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Speaker 8: to worry about what an already powerful company will look

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Speaker 8: like if they have it. So the debate becomes who's

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Speaker 8: the least bad option, And I think that depends on

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Speaker 8: your point of view. If you really care about film

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Speaker 8: and movie theaters. Those people are petrified of Netflix. If

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Speaker 8: you care about jobs, and you're probably a little more

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Speaker 8: scared about Paramount.

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Speaker 1: If you are more political, you.

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Speaker 8: Are probably more scared of Paramount because of the Ellison

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Speaker 8: Trump access and what that's going to mean for CNN.

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Speaker 8: So there's a lot of different kind of conflicting point

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Speaker 8: of view on what is the least bad option here.

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Speaker 5: What do you think is most likely to happen? Like

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Speaker 5: which of these suitors or none is?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 5: Do you think it's going to be Netflix or Paramount

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Speaker 5: or neither? What do you think is most likely?

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Speaker 1: I think it's pretty unlikely for it to be neither.

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Speaker 8: Much as the entertainment industry would like Warner Brothers to

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Speaker 8: remain independent, much as a lot of politicians like Elizabeth

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Speaker 8: Warren would like Warner Brothers to remain independent, it's really

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Speaker 8: hard to tell a company that if someone else offers

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Speaker 8: to offers to pay you two to three times your

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Speaker 8: share price, that you're supposed to say no unless there

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Speaker 8: is a really compelling antitrust case. But so that would

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Speaker 8: assume that they are going to at least pick someone

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Speaker 8: before we get there. I don't see the board walking

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Speaker 8: away and saying surprise, we're not going to sell.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I would say the neither would be they

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Speaker 5: it gets dropped because of anti trust opposition, which is

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Speaker 5: by the ways where I am but would bet my money.

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Speaker 1: But yes, well, I guess I'll get to that.

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Speaker 8: Of the existing bidders, Paramount was seen as the favorite

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Speaker 8: pretty much the whole time. As time went on, it

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Speaker 8: became increasingly clear to me that Netflix was very serious,

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Speaker 8: and their odds of doing it went up and up

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Speaker 8: and up until the point where they actually did it.

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Speaker 8: Just because they've agreed to the deal does not mean

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Speaker 8: that they will prevail. I think the Allisons will be

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Speaker 8: a slightly less rational in the spending because they need

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Speaker 8: it more. Netflix doesn't need it to the same degree.

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Speaker 8: That's at least the conventional wisdom, So it gives the

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Speaker 8: Allison's maybe a slight advantage in the long run.

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Speaker 5: The reason I would be worried if I were somebody

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Speaker 5: who was counting on this deal going through is just

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Speaker 5: because of the dynamics of Trump's presidency. This deal is

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Speaker 5: going to take like a year, and in that amount

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Speaker 5: of time, there's gonna be a midterm election. There is

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Speaker 5: a potential for the Republicans to get hammered. It's going

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Speaker 5: to create a lot of uncertainty. I think that the

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Speaker 5: anti trust argument for breaking this deal up is pretty weak.

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Speaker 5: But I would be a little worried if I were

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Speaker 5: either of these parties about the political uncertainty and about

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Speaker 5: potential blowback. There's potential for like the war end types

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Speaker 5: and the and the Republican anti trust hawks to go

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Speaker 5: after Netflix. There's also potential blowback on the like kind

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Speaker 5: of like trump Ola Gark brawl of Gark, whole thing.

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Speaker 5: And I would and and trump you know, for all

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Speaker 5: the ways that he can be kind of like strong

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Speaker 5: willed and stuff he reads the polls like, I would

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Speaker 5: not be like totally surprised if at some point he

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Speaker 5: changed his tune. I mean, it happened to Elon Musk,

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Speaker 5: it could happen to David Ellison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I he is not a reliable partner in

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 8: Just because he says he's your friend doesn't mean he's

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Speaker 8: gonna stay your friend. You set up an interesting dynamic,

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Speaker 8: which is, you know, does that mean that these companies

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Speaker 8: vying for Warner Brothers will essentially be pulling for the

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Speaker 8: Republicans in the midterms because they're putting the interests of

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Speaker 8: their company over the interests of their you know, their

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Speaker 8: personal politics.

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Speaker 4: Oh Man, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 5: I think they're rooting so hard, I would say, but

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Speaker 5: maybe I'm wrong, all right, Stacey, before we let Lucas go, Yes,

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Speaker 5: I've been getting a lot of feedback, a lot of

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Speaker 5: negative feedback about some comments I.

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Speaker 3: Made a lot of negative feedback from where.

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Speaker 5: From the Everybody's business inbox, everybody's at Bloomberg dot net,

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Speaker 5: that's everybody's with an ass at Bloomberg dot net, as

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Speaker 5: well as my personal text messages around a description of

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Speaker 5: mine of Rush Hour for Lucas a couple episodes ago.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you're listening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked.

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Speaker 5: We talked about Trump sort of giving notes to Hollywood

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Speaker 5: about Rush Hour four, and I I think like summed

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Speaker 5: up the critical consensus around the Rush Hour movies in

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Speaker 5: a way that has upset some very very committed rush

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Speaker 5: Hour fans. I pointed out that Jackie Jackie Chan himself

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Speaker 5: kind of crapped on the movies, that critics didn't like

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Speaker 5: the movies, and that some of the jokes were racist. Joshua,

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Speaker 5: who wrote us an email subject line, do not come

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Speaker 5: for rush Hour, and Joshua says, I'm a pretty liberal guy.

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Speaker 5: You would never catch me voting for Trump or anyone

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Speaker 5: like him. I'm also Asian and I grew up on

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Speaker 5: rush Hour. Rush hour is not and will never be problematic.

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Speaker 5: Every Asian person and Black person I know loves rush Hour.

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Speaker 5: Not a single person I've ever talked to about it

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Speaker 5: has ever had a problem with it. It's a shared

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Speaker 5: bonding experience for our communities. This is Joshua's knows very nice,

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Speaker 5: and I have to say he is not the only person,

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Speaker 5: Joshua who reacted so strongly.

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Speaker 2: I don't have any feelings about it because I have

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Speaker 2: not watched it any of them. No, No, I'm more

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Speaker 2: of a merchant ivory person.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, well these are these are These are of an

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Speaker 8: ilk of kind of the action comedy that was huge

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Speaker 8: in the eighties, nineties, and to some extent the aughts.

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Speaker 8: And I feel like that movie isn't as common as

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Speaker 8: it used to be, which is a shame because it's

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Speaker 8: one of my favorite genres.

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Speaker 3: Where should I check out?

442
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 8: Should you compare Chris Tucker, who is funny, with someone

443
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 8: like Jackie Chan who is sort of electric.

444
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 4: To watch Jackie Chan's amazing.

445
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 8: You just need, you know, a relatively thin plot to

446
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 8: let them do their thing. I remember quite liking both

447
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 8: the first and second Rush Hour movies. I don't really

448
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 8: remember the third one.

449
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 4: But Lucas, what is the chances of the fourth? And

450
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 4: how does this merger?

451
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 3: Felt like fourths are not usually good?

452
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 5: So so Trump, as I recall, was pressuring Ellison to

453
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 5: do this. Now, will Trump have similar pull with the

454
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 5: Netflix creatives to keep Rush Hour on track?

455
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 8: Well that that wouldn't change, I don't think, because okay,

456
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 8: that's the paramount project, so Ellison can just continue to

457
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 8: release it.

458
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 5: Lucas Shatt, author of the screen Time newsletter, thank you

459
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 5: for being.

460
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: Here, Thanks for having me, Stacy.

461
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 5: All year, you and I on this podcast, with many

462
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 5: of our guests and colleagues, have been talking about two themes.

463
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 5: I think one is the shakiness of the US economy

464
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 5: and the other is excitement over AI and all the

465
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 5: questions around that. And I guess now the I think

466
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 5: about as a third theme, which is like Trump and yes,

467
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 5: this week there is a story that's playing out.

468
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 4: It's kind of bringing all of those themes together.

469
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 5: So Donald Trump, as he does, went on truth social

470
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 5: and posted a message, an announcement essentially saying that he

471
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 5: is going to allow Nvidia, the big US chip maker,

472
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 5: to sell its h two hundred AI chips to China

473
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 5: and is going to take a twenty five percent cut

474
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 5: of sales of that. Very excited about that plan is

475
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 5: to allow lots of chip makers to sell their products

476
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 5: to China, something that hadn't been allowed during the first

477
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 5: Trump administration or the Biden ministry.

478
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 3: Or like national security reasons.

479
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 5: Right, Bingo and I wanted to talk about this because

480
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 5: it feels to me like we have two things coming

481
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 5: together at the same time, and it's almost as if

482
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 5: Trump is like throwing the AI industry a bone, which

483
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 5: is to allow it to sell chips to China as

484
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 5: a kind of hail Mary to help the economy or something. Anyway,

485
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 5: I wanted to bring in Neili Patel, who is the

486
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 5: editor in chief of The Verge, who co hosts two

487
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 5: great podcasts, Decoder and Verge Casts for The Verge.

488
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 4: He is here now, Neili, thanks for being.

489
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 6: Here, Thanks for having men excited.

490
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 3: Neili.

491
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 5: Before we get to the Trump of it all, I

492
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 5: would love to hear kind of your take on where

493
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 5: we are on the AI question. Like Stacey and I

494
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 5: for months have been sort of debating about the AI

495
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 5: bubble and is it useful, like like where how do

496
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 5: you see things from your perch?

497
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 6: I think you just said it.

498
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 9: You just said the AI industry and then you said,

499
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 9: sell it's chips to China. The entire AI industry is

500
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 9: in Vidia. That's the money. That's the whole industry. Nobody

501
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 9: else is making a dime.

502
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: Is no one else making a dime? Even with like

503
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 2: the Chips act and everything. I like Micron and all

504
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: those other guys, no one's I think else is making.

505
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 6: Money downstream of in video.

506
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 9: There's TSMC. I bet TSMC is making a lot of money, right.

507
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 9: I think the EUV porthography vendor is making a lot

508
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 9: of money ASML. Like sure, I think the other chip

509
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 9: makers are seeing increased demand, They're not seeing the multiple

510
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 9: that we see in video get right, So AMD is

511
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 9: not trading the same multiple as in Vidia.

512
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 5: To my mind, this is like a huge turnabout, like

513
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 5: we as a society have sort of decided that our

514
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 5: critical technologies, these technologies that are potentially like weapons, should

515
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 5: not be sold to our adversaries. You had all these

516
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 5: efforts again like under the first Trump administration, under Biden.

517
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: What happened here? Why the shift?

518
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 6: Well?

519
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 9: I think some of it is very simply the passage

520
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 9: of time outside of politics. If you remember the first

521
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 9: like iMac G three, like the Bondai Blue IMACG three,

522
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 9: those chips were classified as supercomputers and placed under severe

523
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 9: export restrictions.

524
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: When was this I don't know, I don't know about

525
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 3: this in the nineties.

526
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 4: Oh okay, this is like the iconic iMac, the one that.

527
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: Like that looked like a little suitcase.

528
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 5: Yep, No, that looked like a big suit It's sort

529
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 5: of a big suitcase, a suitcase.

530
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 6: Of debatable size.

531
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: Okay.

532
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 9: But so, like you know, this is a thing that

533
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 9: happens where we the United States in particular, tends to

534
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 9: make bleeding edge technology and then we impose export restrictions

535
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 9: on that to solve geopolitics, and.

536
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 6: VideA needs to see some growth.

537
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 9: I think keeping China out of the race in this

538
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 9: way is challenging over time. So I think in video

539
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 9: is being thrust into this situation where the market has

540
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 9: grown way faster than they probably expected. But they're very

541
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 9: excited about and now they because of AI and now

542
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 9: they need to grow right, and they need to grow

543
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 9: in much the same way as Apple grew the iPhone,

544
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 9: which is just unlocking market after market. So the iPhone

545
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 9: grew the way it grew in its early years because

546
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 9: Apple would just light up a new carrier in a

547
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 9: new country and would immediately get one hundred million new subscribers.

548
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 9: You would light up Japan, it eventually lit up China,

549
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 9: and it saw massive growth for the iPhone. I think

550
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 9: in Vidia has the same problem. They've needed to push

551
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 9: very hard on the Trump administration. I think the argument

552
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 9: that they've made is this is the previous generation of technology.

553
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 9: Our companies in the United States are going to use

554
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 9: the bleeding edge.

555
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: If you were the president, would you allow these chip sales?

556
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: Do you think it's like if you were the president,

557
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: like looking out for the country national security concerns, knowing

558
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: all that, you know, what would you decide?

559
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 3: What would you do?

560
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 6: Boy? If I was the president, I do a lot

561
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 6: of things differently.

562
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 4: In this mission.

563
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 5: You're only allowed to do chip policy, though your David.

564
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 3: Sad you can issue a coin zachs.

565
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 6: I do a lot of things differently too.

566
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 9: I think it is impossible to untangle the chip industry

567
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 9: as it is presently constituted from our national security apparatus.

568
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 9: In particular, the design of the modern ship industry is

569
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 9: built to insulate Taiwan from China, like it is impossible

570
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 9: to not put that at the center of your decision

571
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 9: making process. So the Taiwanese government basically built and subsidized

572
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 9: chip manufacturing, so the United States would have a cored

573
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 9: dependency on Taiwan and protect it from arising China. So

574
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 9: if you're gonna say I'm gonna hold China off from

575
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 9: buying these chips that are buy and large made by

576
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 9: TSMC in Taiwan, you're kind of incentivizing China to run

577
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 9: the same playbook, right and build its own.

578
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 6: Chip fabrication capacity.

579
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 9: And then you're kind of upstream of TSMC, And now

580
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 9: you're saying, Okay, the Dutch government has to prevent ASML

581
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 9: from selling lithography machines to China, And you get really sideways,

582
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 9: really fast, and so I think it might be better

583
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 9: to reduce the incentives for the Chinese government to build

584
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 9: its own ancillary production lines. It's very costly, you have

585
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 9: to invest a lot of talent you have to invest in.

586
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: Yes, you would sell it to them so they don't

587
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 2: start making their own chips.

588
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 9: That has more or less been the strategy United States.

589
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 9: I think when you come to AI and Nvidia again,

590
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 9: the thing I would come to is I would want

591
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 9: I would say to Nvidia, you can do this, but

592
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 9: see all these excess profits. You need to invest those

593
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 9: back into fabrication facilities in the United States so that

594
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 9: we are not beholden to this geopolitical cycle over and

595
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 9: over again. And I think that would be the trade

596
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 9: I would make. This is where I think I meaningfully

597
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 9: differ from the Trump administration in that the coherence of

598
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 9: their plan is actually not visible to anyone.

599
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 6: Right.

600
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 9: They say a lot of things, They tweet a lot

601
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 9: of things, right like, this is an administration that is

602
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 9: defined by trying to tweet it into reality. But we

603
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 9: have not actually seen a plan to take Nvidia's money

604
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 9: and turn it into manufacturing capacity. And that's the I

605
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 9: think that is the tax I would extract on Nvidio

606
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 9: to allow them to enter a market that has national

607
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 9: security concerns.

608
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 5: So Trump has done all this stuff this year, a

609
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 5: lot of which has either not done what he'd hoped

610
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 5: it would do either trying to onshore US manufacturing or

611
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 5: lower prices or whatever. And it feels like increasingly the

612
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 5: Trump administration is kind of running this hail mary, where

613
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 5: like there are all these problems and they kind of

614
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 5: boil down to stagflation, right the economy maybe slowing down,

615
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 5: inflation maybe going up. And it seems like there's really

616
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 5: one hope here for not only for Trump's presidency, but

617
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 5: made for our economy, which is for this AI bubble

618
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 5: to just keep kind of inflating. And if it doesn't

619
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 5: keep inflating, then we're in for some pain. And I'm wondering,

620
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 5: first of all, do you buy that? And where are we?

621
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 5: Like how concerned are you about that? Is this hail mary?

622
00:30:59,040 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 5: Does it have any chance of work?

623
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 6: I think this babble is gonna pop. I don't think.

624
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 9: I don't think this hilmary has any chance working for

625
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 9: a few different reasons. Some of them are just can

626
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 9: these companies execute? Do you trust open AI to execute

627
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 9: for the next twelve months in a way that supports

628
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 9: that company's level of investment, potential, valuation, exit to the

629
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 9: public markets.

630
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 6: I think that's up in the air, you know, Like

631
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 6: I don't know. I don't know if they can do that.

632
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 9: Then there's the core technology of lllm's large language models,

633
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 9: which is really the fundamental.

634
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 6: Piece of this AI boom.

635
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 9: Can it do it? Can you turn an LLM into

636
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 9: digital Jesus?

637
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 3: Whoa wait, break that down me?

638
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 9: Like, the thing that supports this ever growing bubble is

639
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 9: an ultra capable AI system that can do an arbitrary

640
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 9: task as well as a human employee.

641
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 3: And that's the is that the Jesus moved?

642
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, artificial general intelligence? You have it, an arbitrary AI

643
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 9: system and you're like, you work here, now do some

644
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 9: excel and it does it. Right, that's the goal, like

645
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 9: when you boil down replacing workers when.

646
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: But if that happens, that also seems like it could

647
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: cause an economic crisis.

648
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 9: Sure, but I think that the investment thesis right now

649
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 9: is we will get to a place where an AI

650
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 9: system is good in an arbitrary meaningfully.

651
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 6: What's the right word.

652
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 9: But I think the investment thesis right now, and even

653
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 9: I think open eyes working definition of AGI is we

654
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 9: will get to a place where an AI system can

655
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 9: replace sort of an average worker at an economically meaningful task,

656
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 9: an economically meaningful task is the thing they keep saying

657
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 9: because they can't.

658
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: Say labor, but they don't want to say that.

659
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 5: Even replacement, even if you leave aside the concerns by replacement,

660
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 5: just just like making these things make money.

661
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 9: I don't know that lllms can do any of that

662
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 9: right right, Like, there's a real big question in this

663
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 9: industry about whether the core LM technology can actually achieve

664
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 9: that first goal. You can give it a task and

665
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 9: it will do it. And I don't mean to say

666
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 9: that I'm standing in the.

667
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: Way because it seems like they do do those tasks.

668
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: Is it just that they don't do them well enough.

669
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 9: We'll give you an I just had the CEO of

670
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 9: stack Overflow, Pershon Strontersucker on decoder. Stack Overflow is like

671
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 9: the question answer site for developers and so pre AI.

672
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 9: If you are like working on a thing, you're building something,

673
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 9: you had a question, you go ask and people would

674
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 9: help you. And they've obviously been massively disrupted by AI

675
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 9: coding tools. And what stack overflow has found is eighty

676
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 9: percent of its users are using AI or interested in

677
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 9: using AI in their workflows. Only twenty nine percent of

678
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 9: them trust the AI systems to do a good job.

679
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 9: So there's this huge capability gap in what people think

680
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 9: it can do, want it to do, and what it

681
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 9: actually does and how much you trust it. And that

682
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 9: is because the llms don't actually know anything, right. The

683
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 9: fundamental technology they are is token prediction, and token prediction

684
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 9: does not imply knowledge, like it doesn't imply insight. We

685
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 9: just ran a story on the Verge called Large Language Mistake.

686
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 9: It's my favorite headline of the ear and it is

687
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 9: based on the idea that language is not intelligence, right,

688
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 9: and every piece of cutting edge research we have about

689
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 9: language and intelligence suggests that you can absolutely have intelligence

690
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 9: independent of language, and language itself does not imply any

691
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 9: intelligence whatsoever.

692
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is like the Turing test is like not

693
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 5: a good test as it turns out, like because that

694
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 5: the whole idea is like if you can confuse the

695
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 5: language of a computer with the language of a person,

696
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 5: that would show that the computer is intelligent. But as

697
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 5: it turns out, it doesn't show anything. It's just it

698
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 5: just shows that the computer is aping something and without

699
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 5: actually understanding any of it.

700
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 9: Right, And so like a lot of people get confused,

701
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 9: like you see something demonstrate language, you automatically just dump

702
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 9: your assumptions that it is as smart as a person

703
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 9: on it. People get confused by parrots all day long, right, Like,

704
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 9: this is like a real problem, and so dude, my

705
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 9: parent knows things. Animals are intelligent. But is that using

706
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 9: language the way you wanted to?

707
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 4: Like?

708
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 9: It's it's it's challenging to overcome your like literal cognitive

709
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 9: biases about your experience of language, because usually you only

710
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 9: have one experience of language, which is it's being used

711
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 9: by another person.

712
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 6: And you can make a whole bunch of assumptions, and.

713
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 9: I think you can see it across Silicon Valley people

714
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 9: are like, I love my laptop. My laptop is definitely

715
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 9: going to have sex with me. And you're like, I

716
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 9: think you should pump the brakes a little bit.

717
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 2: Is this like, oh, because of like the romance inclined models, if.

718
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 6: You if your MacBook is like you know what, I.

719
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 3: Hasn't that been the dream from the start? I?

720
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 6: Yes, I think a lot of vcs.

721
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 4: Would prefer Yes.

722
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: Isn't that like what has been at the forefront of

723
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: every technological breakthrough is porn? And yes, right, it's like people,

724
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 2: I say, right, people looking for love in all the

725
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: wrong places like that.

726
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 6: Is, yes, technological money in this industry.

727
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 9: You're like, yep, it's obvious that all these guys think

728
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 9: they have a better chance with their MacBooks than a

729
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 9: human lady and here.

730
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: And that might be true. It's true, right, I mean,

731
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: but I just want to.

732
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 9: Say that, like, there's there's this thing, there's this problem,

733
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 9: which is language is not intelligence. And then you see

734
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 9: the industry itself, the bleeding edge researchers in the AI

735
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 9: industry are now saying, hey, where we've run this to

736
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 9: the end. Elias Suskov, who is one of the founders

737
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 9: of opny, the guy who left and all the Samman drama,

738
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 9: is on podcasts right now saying we're out of the

739
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 9: age of scaling where we're just gonna add more data

740
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 9: and compute.

741
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 6: We're back to the age of research. This is a

742
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 6: monstrous quote. That's the bubble pop.

743
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: Wait, why is that big deal? What does that mean?

744
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 9: Because it means you can't get to economically viable tasks

745
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 9: for arbitrary AI system unless you do more research.

746
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 4: Bili Patel, editor in chief of The Verge, thank.

747
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 6: You for being here, Thanks for having me. This is

748
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 6: so fun.

749
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 4: Stacey, what is your underrated story for this week.

750
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 5: I know it's I know it's one of those topics

751
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 5: we never talk about that no serious economists ever would even.

752
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: The Federal Reserve. I talk about it too much. I

753
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: know I talk about it too much, But I really

754
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: do feel like there's an underrated story bubbling in the

755
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: Federal Reserve. Jerome wow made his announcement about interest rate cuts,

756
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: it was what was expected, yep, yes, exactly, snooze kind

757
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 2: of snooze, yes, And but there was something interesting bubbling

758
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: beneath the surface. So for a long time, for most

759
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 2: of Jerome Powell's tenure, the decision has been unanimous because

760
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 2: whether or not to lower in the streets, it's voted

761
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: on by this board, this Federal Open Markets Committee, twelve

762
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: members of this committee.

763
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 4: They always vote unanimous.

764
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: They were always speaking with one voice, you know.

765
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: I think they felt like that was really important, like

766
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 2: we're all united here, we all agree that this should happen.

767
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 3: Well, that has started to not happen.

768
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: This happened when Stephen Myron joined the FED board and

769
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: started to sort of vocally dissent the agreements. Now we

770
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: had three descents. The vote came out nine to three.

771
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 4: Got it now.

772
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: I find this really interesting for a couple of reason,

773
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: since first, it sort of signals that the nature of

774
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 2: these decisions is changing, that there's sort of politics has

775
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 2: sort of entered the building. The other thing I think

776
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: is really interesting seems like President Trump is getting ready

777
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: to put Kevin Hassett into Jerome Powell's job when Jerome

778
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: Powell's term is up in May. And it seems like

779
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 2: there was never really a space for members of the

780
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 2: FED to publicly disagree with what the FED did. It

781
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: was always they spoke with one voice. But it seems

782
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: like maybe that space is being carved out. I mean,

783
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: not only is there sort of public descent now, which

784
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: is a little messy, but there's also this space now

785
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: that there wasn't before of people able to express dissenting

786
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: views about decisions being made, which is maybe setting up

787
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: a very different kind of FED, and maybe not one

788
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 2: that Kevin Hassett is like necessarily excited about.

789
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 5: Isn't it a good thing to have some transparent like

790
00:38:58,640 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 5: I'm sure they.

791
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 4: Behind the scenes.

792
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 5: Like so it seems like it seems like all I

793
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 5: have to say, like when you said there's gonna be

794
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 5: an underrated FED story, I thought this was gonna.

795
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 2: I thought we were gonna be a little more fed vote.

796
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 4: I was like, did Jerome healed?

797
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 3: Well, oh my god, we'd have to break. We'd have

798
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 3: to break the whole show open.

799
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 5: If that happens, well, I'm glad I am here to

800
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 5: make things a little less serious because okay, all right,

801
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 5: so you probably know that the World Cup is coming

802
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 5: to the United States, Mexico, and Canada next summer starting

803
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 5: in June. Is like the biggest global sporting event. It's

804
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 5: going to be one of the big economic events of

805
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 5: the year, maybe maybe the biggest economic event in.

806
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 4: The year, I don't know.

807
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 5: And there was a draw last week where basically the

808
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 5: head of International Soccer, which is called FIFA.

809
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: Picks the Italian guy.

810
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 4: His name is Giohnny and Fontino, although.

811
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 5: John who was calls him Johnny Johnny as if he's

812
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 5: like from Jersey or something. But anyway is out now. Look,

813
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 5: this was very well covered. It was a huge spectacle.

814
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 5: You had the the village people were there, all of

815
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 5: like Trump's favorite.

816
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 4: YMCA.

817
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 5: Basically FIVA does this all the time, right, they're sort

818
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 5: of doing politics, They're trying to get on the good

819
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 5: side of their hosts there. There there's some issues going

820
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 5: on with visas and so on, right, Like the Trump

821
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 5: administration has threatened to add all these extra visa requirements

822
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 5: that could mess things up for football. It's not clear

823
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 5: that fans for some of these teams, especially Haiti and Iran,

824
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 5: which are both playing in the World Cup, will be

825
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 5: able to come to the games because of immigration restrictions.

826
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 5: So there's this kind of interesting geopolitical dance. I don't

827
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 5: want to talk about any of that. Oh, I should

828
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 5: also say that Johnny Infantino gave Donald Trump a peace prize.

829
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: I did see that.

830
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 3: That was really weird.

831
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 4: The Preas prize. It's like a Tamu Nobel.

832
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 5: I guess like Johnny and Fantino realized that Donald Trump

833
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 5: was sad about not getting the Nobel, so he gave him.

834
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: This, like Costco giving out a peace prize.

835
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, the Costco Peace Prize, I think, yeah, I

836
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 5: know there for it.

837
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 6: Okay.

838
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 5: So I don't want to talk about any of that

839
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 5: because all that news is overrated. I want to talk

840
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 5: to you about semantics, and I think it's semantics. What

841
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 5: Trump said about the sport that is going to be

842
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 5: played next year in the United States, Canada Mexico during

843
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 5: this World Cup draw.

844
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 4: Here, I'm gonna play the clip for you.

845
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 10: When you look at what has happened to football in

846
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 10: the United States. Again, soccer in the United States. We

847
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 10: seem to never call it that because we have a

848
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 10: little bit of a conflict with another thing that's called football.

849
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 10: But when you think about it, shouldn't it really be

850
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 10: called I mean, this is football, there's no question about.

851
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 10: We have to come up with another name for the Yes,

852
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 10: it really doesn't make sense when you think about it,

853
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 10: but this is really football.

854
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: Just to because it happens when you give the president

855
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: a peace prize, we like.

856
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 5: It to come up with a different name for the

857
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 5: NFL stuff. The most popular sport in America really our

858
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 5: national pastime. Donald Trump is ready to just toss it

859
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 5: out rename it. I don't are we gonna call it

860
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 5: handball or like well sometimes football, I don't know.

861
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 3: I feel like what maybe playing out here?

862
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: Do you remember when President Trump went to the Super

863
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: Bowl shortly after his election and it was like kind

864
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: of a mixed experience, Like Kendrick Lamar seemed to be

865
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: kind of speaking to the president. There was like the

866
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: Taylor swift one with the Eagles won and this amazing upset.

867
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: I feel like maybe that left a bad taste in

868
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 2: the President's mouth. And now here comes FIFA with the

869
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 2: Peace Prize and he's like, you know what, forget old football.

870
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: So the thing that really this is very Cosmopolitans breaks.

871
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 4: My brain because.

872
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 5: An American soccer fan, like the one thing that national

873
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 5: team soccer fans care about is not calling it football.

874
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 5: And it's like a common insult, Like if the US

875
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 5: beats a big European country, you know, you'll see a

876
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 5: million social media posts that are like, so it's called

877
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 5: soccer now. I think when we tied England, you know,

878
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 5: we didn't beat England in the last World Cup, just

879
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 5: the tie, We're like, now you have to call it soccer, sorry,

880
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 5: which is kind of funny because also they do call

881
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 5: it soccer in England, but we'll leaving that aside. The

882
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 5: like height of like American sports chauvinism is to not

883
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 5: admit that the rest of the world calls it football.

884
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 5: And if there's anything else I would expect from Donald Trump,

885
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 5: it would be to continue that what's he called the weave,

886
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 5: He's he's really he's zigging where others zag I guess.

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00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 3: That is kind of delightful.

888
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: I was now just thinking of like other sort of

889
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: language controversies that could potentially flip under President Trump, Like

890
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, could he get him to like instead

891
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: of trucks, we could do lories maybe, or like potato.

892
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: I don't know where could this?

893
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 5: This is your worst sports friend, Like you're the sports

894
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 5: friend who's like, oh, Arsenal are playing Liverpool.

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Speaker 4: It's like, no, that's nice.

896
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: The person who spends a semester in Barcelona, that's Donald Trump.

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00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 4: Now he's going to Barcelona.

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00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 3: This show is produced by Stacy Wong.

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00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: Magnus Hendrickson is our supervising producer, and Amy Kean is

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00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 2: our executive producer. Sam Rogich handles engineering, and Dave Precellf facchecks.

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00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: Sage Bauman heads Bloomberg Podcasts. Special thanks to Jeff Muscus,

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00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,600
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903
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 2: a minute, please rate and review the show. It would

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00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: mean a lot to us. And if you.

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00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 3: Have a story that should be our business, email us.

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00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,959
Speaker 3: Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net.

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00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: That is, everybody's with an s at Bloomberg dot net.

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00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.