WEBVTT - An Investor’s Guide to Navigating the Content Business 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.040 Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring conversations with 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.800 industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.840 Cynthia Littleton, business editor for Variety Today. My guest is 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:23.440 James Moore, managing partner and CEO of Vine Alternative Investments. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.160 James gives us an investor's guide to navigating the content business. 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.840 He discusses the growth of the asset management firm and 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.920 its approach to building a diversified portfolio of content, production 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:40.160 and i P holdings. Vine is the parent company of Village, 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.159 road Show and other established industry entities, and it has 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.479 slowly but surely been amassing a library through acquisitions. As 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.960 More explains, Vine hopes to help fill the void for 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:56.120 global TV buyers as Hollywood's largest studios focus on funneling 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:00.920 content into vertically integrated streaming platforms. Or started Vine in 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.320 two thousand and six after sixteen years as a banker 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:07.160 with JP Morgan. That experience taught him that media investing 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.000 could be demystified and made more predictable and thus more 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.200 palatable to investors. He had a trial by fire with 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.920 a startup launched just as the country went into its 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:22.120 last recession. Now he sees opportunities coming out of the 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:29.720 current pandemic crisis. Jim Moore, managing partner and CEO of 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:34.160 Vine Alternative Investments, Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.800 thank you, Cynthia. It's a pleasure. Um. Well, you know, 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.520 we're about we're about two and a half months into 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.080 an extraordinary environment that none of us could have even 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.880 imagined three months ago would be would become something like 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:52.640 the new normal, and it looks like, at least in 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.440 some places like California in particular, it looks like we're 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.600 starting to very slowly turn the corner to reopening and 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:04.680 getting to something that looks a little bit like normal. Um. 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.360 For you, as an investor, first and foremost, how have 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.080 you kind of been spending this time? How have you 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:15.360 been sizing up opportunities in the media landscape right now? 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.480 Great question. We really continue to pursue our business model 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:26.239 of investing in content related opportunities. So as an investor, 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:32.320 we see the landscape as being one of high demand 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:37.800 coming out of this. Uh, the theatrical environment has been 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:42.960 completely shut down. The streamers have been very fortunate in 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.239 in growth opportunities because of this, But it means their 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.960 new customers and their old customers are consuming all of 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.959 the content that it's on their platform. So we see 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.919 across the board the need for the entire industry to 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:03.440 restock its content supply. And between the content investments in 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:07.079 our portfolio and the production investments in our portfolio, it's 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.200 really more of aligning them, trying to give them the 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.359 resources they need so that they're out of the gate 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:17.080 as quickly as possible when production returns, helping them through 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.960 the process of development and getting all of those ducts 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.680 in a row so that on the other side of 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.000 this we are able to meet what we expect to 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.639 be a very robust demand for content. Yeah. I mean 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.480 we've seen that in every in every study and every 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:35.320 ratings report. You know, people are no surprise at this time, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.120 are definitely tuned into their screens. And a number of 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.480 people have said that this this could be seen as 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.040 the you know, if there's a silver lining here, it 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.800 is that people have had a chance to sample the 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:52.640 incredible explosion in in content, have you. I mean, the 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.000 media and entertainments was already in a period of consolidation 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:01.280 before the lockdown hit. Do you think that you know, 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.400 coming out of this. The conventional wisdom is that the 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.200 companies that were weak are going to be a lot 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:09.920 weaker after just at this abrupt shutdown. You know, do 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:14.160 you see shopping opportunities as the world kind of starts 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.760 to get back on its feet. I think that the 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:21.280 conventional wisdom is probably largely correct um. But we're not 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:25.279 just buyers. We are capital providers to the industry. So 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.039 it's not just about what can we buy because it 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:33.279 it's struggled, it's what can we support that means our capital. 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:38.360 So we look across the spectrum at opportunities. Where are 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:43.280 their platforms that otherwise we're very solid platforms, will run 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:49.440 platforms with good content, but with this headwind, you know, 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:51.680 couldn't make it. Where can we support them with our 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:53.840 capital is just as much a part of our business 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:59.440 plan as where have assets become available because of this situation? 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.480 And where can we add to our very large portfolio. 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.000 Do you find given that you do provide you know, 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.240 you do not just acquire, but you do provide that 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:14.800 kind of liquidity. Do those opportunities come for you to 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.560 come in and support a struggling business? Do those typically 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.360 come from things that you and your team scope out 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.320 or do they come from incoming phone calls people know 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.440 that you can provide that kind of financing and and 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.880 seek you out. It's a bit of both, but I'd 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.359 say it's a little bit more on the outbound. I 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.400 don't I don't think people think there's the type of 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.600 creative capital out there as we can provide, because almost 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.120 everything we've done in the past has been pretty bespoke. 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.440 It's solved a very specific need for somebody in a 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:51.200 very specific situation, and we have the capacity to meet 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.400 those needs when people don't even know that they either 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.760 have the need or that there is a solution outside 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.520 of their traditional things. So our outreach is very important 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.720 to educating people. And they're not just struggling businesses. There 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.400 are other businesses that now have competing priorities or are 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.360 just you know, in need of another source of capital 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.640 given the extreme demand that's going to be on the 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:18.080 whole system. So it's we deal with everybody from well 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.479 capitalized but needing diversification in that capital too, you know, 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:27.680 struggling and needing additional capital too greatly, struggling and needing 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.000 the ultimate liquidity solution. M HM. Did you have any 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.520 deals that were in motion that we're kind of put 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:39.040 on ice by the pandemic. Uh No, Actually it's accelerated 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.279 some of the transactions that that we were looking at. 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.600 So um Our transactions take a long time. It's a 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.360 it's a process of of understanding the assets at a 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.360 very granular level and understanding what the issues are. So 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.919 we tend to have a lot of lead time for 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:03.480 everything we've ever done. Uh. The pandemic has accelerated a 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:08.200 couple of opportunities in our portfolio and we're moving that along. Mhmm. 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.400 Do you um, does you know does the conditions of 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:14.720 the pandemic, the lockdown of the last couple of months, 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.640 does that change you know, price and value discussions at all? 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.200 I mean the is it are the conditions that the 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.800 industry is facing so significant you think that you would 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.600 have to reevaluate the terms of something that you would 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.600 maybe you know, come close to really nailing down like 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:37.040 January or early February. Is it that significant? I think 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:42.840 if you're focused on theatrically released pictures in an independent context, 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.160 you'd have to revisit the market coming out of the pandemic. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:52.880 The opportunity to get your theatrical film in a theater 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.360 with any meaningful amount of showing is going to be 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:59.360 extremely challenged. So if that was your business model, you 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.960 have to revisit at the economics of your business model. 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.600 Our business model tends to focus more on established i 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.000 P and the development of that i P into alternative 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:13.560 platform so we haven't been as directly affected by this change, 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.600 and we saw that change coming several years ago and 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.480 we acquired Village road Show. Village was exactly that. They 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:25.880 were solely reliant on the theatrical market until we took 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.920 them over and steered them in a different direction to 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.199 focus on opportunities and television and streaming. And with Steve 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.840 Moscow having come on board and brought a team with 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.360 him and assembled a team around him to make that 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:45.920 vision happen, that company has as positioned itself extremely well 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.520 for the content demand that's going to come in the 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.319 next couple of months. M I want to talk a 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:53.800 little more about Village road Show. But let me ask you, 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.000 although I realized this is out of the scope of 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.280 your I P and content focus business asn't it, just 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.480 as an invest stir and somebody who you know who 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:05.760 evaluates markets, do you think that there is an opportunity 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.000 for somebody to come in at a time when the 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:13.520 major theater change the exhibition chains are really struggling. The 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:15.800 A m c S, the cinemarx. Do you think that 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:21.800 we'll see buying opportunities or consolidation in that market? Well, 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.240 just because they're cheaper, I don't know that that means 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:29.160 it's a buying opportunity. UM. I don't know who has 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.320 the crystal ball that knows what the theatrical consumer experience 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.640 is going to look like six months from now or 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:40.000 twelve months from now. Um. But if your vision is 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:45.440 that it will return to something resembling normal and something 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.520 resembling a reasonable time frame, I could see making that 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.720 investment for the long term. But there's just so much unknown. 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.679 H How prevalent will social distancing be, either because of 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.760 regulation or because of consumer preference. You're gonna want to 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:02.520 go to the movies and sit next to or in 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.240 front of somebody you don't know as tightly as as 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.520 you have. And you know that's a real estate business 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.679 that relies on a certain density of consumer to make 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.920 the numbers work. So you know, the the change that 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:21.600 that gave you more of a living room experience the 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.400 eye picks of the world. They were struggling long before 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.720 the pandemic because it's a challenging business market to have 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:34.040 so much space dedicated to so few people. Yeah, so 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.360 they'll be opportunities because things are valued less. I just 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:43.000 don't know if they're valued less, if they're still over 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:47.680 or undervalued. With your acquisition of Village road Show, you 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:52.040 recruited Steve Moscow, a season television executive. Is it fair 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.200 to say that, at least in the short term, like 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.600 year two the Village road Show, will you know, put 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:04.640 more capital and energy towards television and digital content versus 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.959 theatrical films as it has in the past. That's a 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:14.240 very accurate. That's a high priority drive of ours is 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:19.280 to diversify that company into providing content to a diversity 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:24.040 of platforms. So they have relationships with and and are 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:28.920 talking about real content opportunities to everybody across the spectrum. 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.280 And we look forward to being able to create really 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.160 any type of content that the consumer wants, from the 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:39.199 shortest form too to the new you know, single season 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:46.520 episodic streaming television to traditional linear television. M hmm. Do 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.840 you think um at this moment in time when we're 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.880 seeing you know, we're seeing the launch of massive global 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.920 streaming services. You're obviously bullish and investing in Village road show. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.400 Do you think that a company of that of that 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.360 size and a company that kind of fulfills that that 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.439 traditional role of not quite a studio but a bit 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.880 larger than a boutique, can those companies thrive in this 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.520 environment where we're seeing people kind of be you know, 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.240 networks and platforms and content providers are becoming you know, 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:24.080 more siloed than they had been in the past. Um 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:25.960 you know, at the same time, it is a there 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:30.880 is a very vibrant demand for content, but nonetheless, the 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.600 companies and the control of the content and the rights 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.960 is very is very concentrated with a you know, truly 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.280 a handful of big, big players. Is that is that 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.000 daunting as you try to build a build, build up 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:47.559 a business like a village rocha. It's exactly the opposite. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.040 If we were in the distribution business, it would be 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:54.320 incredibly daunting because distribution is very expensive, it requires scale, 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.120 and you're up against the biggest companies on the planet. 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.280 We're in the content creation to news and it's those 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.679 silos that our business model is exactly built to feed 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:09.480 the fact that Warner Brothers has built HBO Max, and 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.520 Disney has built Disney Plus and Peacock is coming uh 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.559 that will take up content that previously had been distributed 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:23.719 around the industry. So the previous consumers of Warner Brothers 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.520 content are going to be shut out of Warner Brothers 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.600 content as it all goes increasingly to HBO Max. That 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.960 opens the door for The Village road Show UM and 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.600 other investments that will make in this space. On the 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:42.640 production side, they'll be able to deal independently with all 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.240 the different platforms as an honest broker and be able 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.560 to deliver content that meets each one of those and 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.840 it won't be the same type of content. They'll have 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.199 a demographic that they'll be trying to fill, and we 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.720 have a very diverse catalog of content in development to 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.079 be able to meet those needs. So it's those silos 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.480 that are exactly the business opportunity that we're pursuing because 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.280 they've shut off content delivery to other platforms that continue 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.400 to need it, and they needed themselves as big as 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.160 Warner Brothers is. They can't create enough content for HBO Max. 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.880 It's a it's a huge enterprise that they're trying to create. 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:25.080 They're trying to compete head to head with Netflix. They 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:30.840 need high quality original content h and obviously too in 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:36.600 this environment, the business that the traditional TV series, the 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.960 construct of how studios made money on television series has 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:44.200 changed very much. For for a village road show, going 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.800 into a world where most of your upside is is 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.200 calculated up front, maybe not paid up front, but calculated 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.880 up front um that is still you feel like there's 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.680 enough of a robust business there to warrant to just 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.760 by your investment. We do. We do because it's a blend. 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.480 There's some element of the revenue stream that says you 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:10.440 described it's fixed margin business UM, and the margins if 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.120 you can control production costs and development costs and overhead, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.400 are sufficient to to have a good business. But that's 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.960 not our only business. We still have the theatrical leg. 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.480 We still have our catalog of extremely valuable tent pole 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:30.640 titles with Matrix four coming down the pike and potentially 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:35.640 other sequels to our iconic properties those that's an important 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.040 leg in the business. There's UM, there's other you know, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.840 we are dealing with the linear channels in a more 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.960 traditional television sense, so there will be international exploitation of 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.360 content we've developed for domestic platform so we look to 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.160 blend all of them. We don't want anyone to be 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.320 our soul business model. We think the combination of the 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:01.480 three adds value, and the value in the fixed price 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:06.800 contracts is stability. When you're a Village road Show sized enterprise, 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:11.560 extreme volatility is dangerous stability. Even though people tend to 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.160 focus on oh, it takes away your upside, it takes 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.360 away you're downside too, and so having a nice element 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:22.600 of known profit is very attractive as an investor. Does 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.280 Village Road Show? You know, for years, Village Road Show 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.840 was very closely aligned in the feature business with Warner Brothers. 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.560 You know, had had agreements together. Do there are those 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.160 still in existence? Do you still have that relationship or 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.600 are you more of a what more playing the field 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.600 these days in the film On the film side, we're 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.520 still a very active partner of Warner Brothers. Um it's 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:49.280 not an exclusive relationship and never actually was. The prior 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:53.160 incarnation of Village did several movies with Sony. We have 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.600 some older paramount pictures that our in our catalog. So 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.920 we've always had the ability and have always had relationships 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.879 with other studios, But we do have an anchor relationship 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.920 with Warner Brothers, and our development of that co owned 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:14.359 i P is central to to that part of that relationship, 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.080 and we look forward to working with them on a 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:21.520 continuing basis. But we are free to do other things 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.000 with other studios, either the television side of other studios 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.440 or the theatrical side of other studios. Will develop those 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.480 relationships and continue to do what what is the intersection 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.000 of the content that we have and the consumer appetite 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:40.040 that we see And when you're producing uh in the 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.040 TV series Realm, do you are there things that you 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.440 anticipate Bill Road Show producing entirely on their own or 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.680 are you gonna? Are you still in a business of 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:53.760 looking for partners on a project project. We're very opportunistic. 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:58.119 We're capable of doing anything on our own. UM. We 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.760 accept partners when they make sense within the context of 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:06.800 the project. We don't start things meeting a partner. That's 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.960 not our business model. UM. The company is very well 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:15.840 capitalized and capable internally of creating and developing and producing 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.280 anything that we start. But there are just certain times 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.080 where you know, somebody has a piece of I P 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:24.760 and you have a take and putting those two things 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.240 together makes a lot of sense. And that's where partnerships 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:33.120 are organic and important. M Um, let's talk about Europa Corp. 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.960 You are an investor in Europa Corp. And obviously that's 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.560 a company that that I'm sure gives you a really 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.640 you know, a good sense of the global market for content. 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.040 But you know, beyond just beyond the United States, Um, 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.360 that company has obviously been through They've just been through 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.000 a restructuring, They've had a lot of management changes in 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:57.200 the last couple of years. What do you uh, you know, 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.520 what what has kept you invested in or rope for 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.800 Let me ask you the kind of the bigger picture 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.040 question about the content business that that I'm sure you 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.119 have to as an investor really evaluate. One of the 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.960 things that we've been talking about, the production models, the 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.359 profit models are all changing for film and television, and 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.880 that makes it very hard to to evaluate and really 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.879 put a number on the long term value of an 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:29.640 individual movie, an individual television program. How as you look 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:31.920 at as you know you have you have been in 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.240 the business of buying film libraries. You bought the Lake 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.840 Shore Entertainment Library a couple of years ago. Village Road 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:41.920 Show has a library. How do you go about, you know, 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.040 in a world where syndication futures is you if you will, 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.040 are not nearly as predictable as they once were because 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.960 the market is so much bigger. What are the what 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.080 are the measures? What are the what are the yard 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.200 sticks that you use to evaluate a library that you're 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.760 considering buying or or the potential of a property that 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.480 you're considering investing in at a time when when there's 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:09.240 so much about the way people make money is changing. Um, 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.359 there is a lot of change going on. We do 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.240 a very granular analysis of any library we're looking to acquire, 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.600 and what that means is you're really looking at the 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:25.800 individual pieces of content and what they're the rights are 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.840 that are associated with them, and what channels are available 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.399 to you and what channels will be exploited in the future. 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.840 So you do have a lot of visibility, even though 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.800 there's change coming. You do have a lot of visibility 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.919 because the path of content is sort of set when 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.760 it's created and then it's observable over over its life. 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.720 And what I mean by that is. The change that's 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.040 happening is going to be happening more to new content 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.360 than to the library content, and so it's easier to address. 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.200 So a new piece of content that you make for Netflix, 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.960 you know, it doesn't have the the life cycle that 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.200 it would have had fifteen years ago because Netflix doesn't 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.080 operate the way they did then, and um and the 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.600 world doesn't operate that way. So now you have an 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:14.679 opportunity to make something for a margin and you put 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.560 you don't get the international upside um. So that's sort 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:22.159 of what you're talking about in terms of the change 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.320 that's happening. The rights that had historically been left with 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:31.680 producers or monetized in different ways aren't being that monetized 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.359 in those ways. But there's a lot of library, older 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:39.840 assets that still are where the rights aren't controlled in 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:41.600 the same way as they're going to be controlled in 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:46.680 the future. There's still a very robust international demand for content. 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:52.280 The more and more um quality pieces of i P 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.800 that get locked up in these streaming platforms, the less 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:01.240 and less independent distributors in far entire tories have available. 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:05.000 So you know, we can look at things very gradually. 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.560 We can still understand how they're going to be exploited 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:09.919 over the next thirty years, and we can still measure 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:13.719 that with a high degree of of accuracy. And as 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:17.160 we continue to evolve our portfolio, we're always looking behind 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.280 and forward, you know, how we're our projections when we 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.840 made them, and how does that influence how we make 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.200 future projections. And that ropebust level of data that we 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.800 have gives us comfort, lets us sleep at night that 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.880 we understand how much content is worth because we look 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:35.520 at it. You can't just say in general how much 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.240 content is worth. You have to look at individual pieces 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:42.120 and model it out separately. Is it fair to say 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.760 that you are seeing a diminishing you know, revenue stream 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:52.080 coming from traditional sources like broadcast syndication, like cable syndication 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:55.200 in the US? I mean, is that are those businesses 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:59.040 you know, seeing the feeling the decline that we are 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.960 seeing in a macro sense of the shrinking cable universe. 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.520 The domestic TV is under a little bit of pressure, 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:11.840 but international TV is still robust, and overall the international 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.879 market is now larger than the US markets, So on 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.280 the whole, those those have balanced out. Um the counter, 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:25.600 is international TV or domestic TV. They still need content 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:30.120 and they still have audiences to cater to. They still 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:33.919 have a demographic that wants to see a certain thing. So, um, 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.320 while they're under pressure, they're under pressure to keep their 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:40.080 audience as well, and that keeps a certain amount of 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:45.119 of demand on their side that benefits owners and you 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:48.480 and your company. Vine at times will go into like 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:54.480 buying you know, very specific portfolios, portfolios of of interests 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:57.080 in in content that a producer might have or a 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:00.600 showrunner or a star. You get, you get back granular 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:05.600 in some deal making. Correct, absolutely, absolutely, We've we do 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:10.639 everything from single pictures either films or television shows up 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.560 to libraries of a hundred plus three hundred plus titles. 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:19.560 So we're capable of spanning the universe of of investment. 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.760 And do you do you license the library because you've 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:26.400 picked up you know, Village Road Show, Europa, Lake Shore, 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:30.120 do you have some some way to license the library. 0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:33.639 Do you market the library as a as a Vine 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:37.280 Alternative Investments library or do you do it sort of 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:40.359 by brand when you're if you're trying to license, you know, 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.000 do a big content licensing deal. Right now, we're still 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:50.639 licensing titles under the original uh cat library names. So 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:53.680 if you're talking about Rischer or gay Lord or some 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:55.720 of the other titles that we've had where we have 0:24:56.240 --> 0:25:01.800 international distribution, our distributions still uses is the the original 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:06.360 is just that because that's the familiar name in the marketplace. UM. 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:10.240 As we get bigger, we will entertain whether or not 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:15.360 the Vine brand UM gives us scale. You know, we've 0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:20.920 acquired the capacity to service and sell those assets across 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:23.800 the globe, So we're doing all of that internally with 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:27.960 the acquisitions we've made. UM. So with increasing acquisitions, it 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:30.720 will just organically become more familiar to the marketplace that 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:36.200 these are Vine assets. So but at this at this moment, 0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:39.040