1 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring conversations with 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, business editor for Variety Today. My guest is 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: James Moore, managing partner and CEO of Vine Alternative Investments. 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: James gives us an investor's guide to navigating the content business. 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: He discusses the growth of the asset management firm and 7 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: its approach to building a diversified portfolio of content, production 8 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: and i P holdings. Vine is the parent company of Village, 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: road Show and other established industry entities, and it has 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: slowly but surely been amassing a library through acquisitions. As 11 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: More explains, Vine hopes to help fill the void for 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: global TV buyers as Hollywood's largest studios focus on funneling 13 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: content into vertically integrated streaming platforms. Or started Vine in 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and six after sixteen years as a banker 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: with JP Morgan. That experience taught him that media investing 16 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: could be demystified and made more predictable and thus more 17 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: palatable to investors. He had a trial by fire with 18 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: a startup launched just as the country went into its 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: last recession. Now he sees opportunities coming out of the 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: current pandemic crisis. Jim Moore, managing partner and CEO of 21 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: Vine Alternative Investments, Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, 22 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: thank you, Cynthia. It's a pleasure. Um. Well, you know, 23 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: we're about we're about two and a half months into 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: an extraordinary environment that none of us could have even 25 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: imagined three months ago would be would become something like 26 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: the new normal, and it looks like, at least in 27 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: some places like California in particular, it looks like we're 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: starting to very slowly turn the corner to reopening and 29 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: getting to something that looks a little bit like normal. Um. 30 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: For you, as an investor, first and foremost, how have 31 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: you kind of been spending this time? How have you 32 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: been sizing up opportunities in the media landscape right now? 33 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: Great question. We really continue to pursue our business model 34 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: of investing in content related opportunities. So as an investor, 35 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: we see the landscape as being one of high demand 36 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: coming out of this. Uh, the theatrical environment has been 37 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: completely shut down. The streamers have been very fortunate in 38 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: in growth opportunities because of this, But it means their 39 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: new customers and their old customers are consuming all of 40 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 1: the content that it's on their platform. So we see 41 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: across the board the need for the entire industry to 42 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: restock its content supply. And between the content investments in 43 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: our portfolio and the production investments in our portfolio, it's 44 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: really more of aligning them, trying to give them the 45 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: resources they need so that they're out of the gate 46 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: as quickly as possible when production returns, helping them through 47 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: the process of development and getting all of those ducts 48 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: in a row so that on the other side of 49 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: this we are able to meet what we expect to 50 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: be a very robust demand for content. Yeah. I mean 51 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: we've seen that in every in every study and every 52 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: ratings report. You know, people are no surprise at this time, 53 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: are definitely tuned into their screens. And a number of 54 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: people have said that this this could be seen as 55 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: the you know, if there's a silver lining here, it 56 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: is that people have had a chance to sample the 57 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: incredible explosion in in content, have you. I mean, the 58 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: media and entertainments was already in a period of consolidation 59 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: before the lockdown hit. Do you think that you know, 60 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: coming out of this. The conventional wisdom is that the 61 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: companies that were weak are going to be a lot 62 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: weaker after just at this abrupt shutdown. You know, do 63 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: you see shopping opportunities as the world kind of starts 64 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: to get back on its feet. I think that the 65 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: conventional wisdom is probably largely correct um. But we're not 66 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: just buyers. We are capital providers to the industry. So 67 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: it's not just about what can we buy because it 68 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: it's struggled, it's what can we support that means our capital. 69 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: So we look across the spectrum at opportunities. Where are 70 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: their platforms that otherwise we're very solid platforms, will run 71 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: platforms with good content, but with this headwind, you know, 72 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: couldn't make it. Where can we support them with our 73 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: capital is just as much a part of our business 74 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: plan as where have assets become available because of this situation? 75 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: And where can we add to our very large portfolio. 76 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: Do you find given that you do provide you know, 77 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: you do not just acquire, but you do provide that 78 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: kind of liquidity. Do those opportunities come for you to 79 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: come in and support a struggling business? Do those typically 80 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: come from things that you and your team scope out 81 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: or do they come from incoming phone calls people know 82 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: that you can provide that kind of financing and and 83 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: seek you out. It's a bit of both, but I'd 84 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: say it's a little bit more on the outbound. I 85 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: don't I don't think people think there's the type of 86 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: creative capital out there as we can provide, because almost 87 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: everything we've done in the past has been pretty bespoke. 88 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: It's solved a very specific need for somebody in a 89 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: very specific situation, and we have the capacity to meet 90 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: those needs when people don't even know that they either 91 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: have the need or that there is a solution outside 92 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: of their traditional things. So our outreach is very important 93 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: to educating people. And they're not just struggling businesses. There 94 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: are other businesses that now have competing priorities or are 95 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: just you know, in need of another source of capital 96 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: given the extreme demand that's going to be on the 97 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: whole system. So it's we deal with everybody from well 98 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: capitalized but needing diversification in that capital too, you know, 99 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: struggling and needing additional capital too greatly, struggling and needing 100 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: the ultimate liquidity solution. M HM. Did you have any 101 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: deals that were in motion that we're kind of put 102 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: on ice by the pandemic. Uh No, Actually it's accelerated 103 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: some of the transactions that that we were looking at. 104 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: So um Our transactions take a long time. It's a 105 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: it's a process of of understanding the assets at a 106 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: very granular level and understanding what the issues are. So 107 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: we tend to have a lot of lead time for 108 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: everything we've ever done. Uh. The pandemic has accelerated a 109 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: couple of opportunities in our portfolio and we're moving that along. Mhmm. 110 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: Do you um, does you know does the conditions of 111 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: the pandemic, the lockdown of the last couple of months, 112 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: does that change you know, price and value discussions at all? 113 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: I mean the is it are the conditions that the 114 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: industry is facing so significant you think that you would 115 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: have to reevaluate the terms of something that you would 116 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: maybe you know, come close to really nailing down like 117 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: January or early February. Is it that significant? I think 118 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: if you're focused on theatrically released pictures in an independent context, 119 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: you'd have to revisit the market coming out of the pandemic. 120 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: The opportunity to get your theatrical film in a theater 121 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: with any meaningful amount of showing is going to be 122 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: extremely challenged. So if that was your business model, you 123 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: have to revisit at the economics of your business model. 124 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: Our business model tends to focus more on established i 125 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: P and the development of that i P into alternative 126 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: platform so we haven't been as directly affected by this change, 127 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: and we saw that change coming several years ago and 128 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: we acquired Village road Show. Village was exactly that. They 129 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: were solely reliant on the theatrical market until we took 130 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: them over and steered them in a different direction to 131 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: focus on opportunities and television and streaming. And with Steve 132 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: Moscow having come on board and brought a team with 133 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: him and assembled a team around him to make that 134 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: vision happen, that company has as positioned itself extremely well 135 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: for the content demand that's going to come in the 136 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: next couple of months. M I want to talk a 137 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: little more about Village road Show. But let me ask you, 138 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: although I realized this is out of the scope of 139 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: your I P and content focus business asn't it, just 140 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: as an invest stir and somebody who you know who 141 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: evaluates markets, do you think that there is an opportunity 142 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: for somebody to come in at a time when the 143 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: major theater change the exhibition chains are really struggling. The 144 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: A m c S, the cinemarx. Do you think that 145 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: we'll see buying opportunities or consolidation in that market? Well, 146 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: just because they're cheaper, I don't know that that means 147 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: it's a buying opportunity. UM. I don't know who has 148 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: the crystal ball that knows what the theatrical consumer experience 149 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: is going to look like six months from now or 150 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: twelve months from now. Um. But if your vision is 151 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: that it will return to something resembling normal and something 152 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: resembling a reasonable time frame, I could see making that 153 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: investment for the long term. But there's just so much unknown. 154 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: H How prevalent will social distancing be, either because of 155 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: regulation or because of consumer preference. You're gonna want to 156 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: go to the movies and sit next to or in 157 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: front of somebody you don't know as tightly as as 158 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: you have. And you know that's a real estate business 159 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: that relies on a certain density of consumer to make 160 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: the numbers work. So you know, the the change that 161 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: that gave you more of a living room experience the 162 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: eye picks of the world. They were struggling long before 163 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: the pandemic because it's a challenging business market to have 164 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: so much space dedicated to so few people. Yeah, so 165 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: they'll be opportunities because things are valued less. I just 166 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: don't know if they're valued less, if they're still over 167 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: or undervalued. With your acquisition of Village road Show, you 168 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: recruited Steve Moscow, a season television executive. Is it fair 169 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: to say that, at least in the short term, like 170 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: year two the Village road Show, will you know, put 171 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: more capital and energy towards television and digital content versus 172 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: theatrical films as it has in the past. That's a 173 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: very accurate. That's a high priority drive of ours is 174 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: to diversify that company into providing content to a diversity 175 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: of platforms. So they have relationships with and and are 176 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: talking about real content opportunities to everybody across the spectrum. 177 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: And we look forward to being able to create really 178 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: any type of content that the consumer wants, from the 179 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: shortest form too to the new you know, single season 180 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: episodic streaming television to traditional linear television. M hmm. Do 181 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: you think um at this moment in time when we're 182 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: seeing you know, we're seeing the launch of massive global 183 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: streaming services. You're obviously bullish and investing in Village road show. 184 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: Do you think that a company of that of that 185 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: size and a company that kind of fulfills that that 186 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: traditional role of not quite a studio but a bit 187 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: larger than a boutique, can those companies thrive in this 188 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: environment where we're seeing people kind of be you know, 189 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: networks and platforms and content providers are becoming you know, 190 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: more siloed than they had been in the past. Um 191 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, at the same time, it is a there 192 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: is a very vibrant demand for content, but nonetheless, the 193 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: companies and the control of the content and the rights 194 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: is very is very concentrated with a you know, truly 195 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: a handful of big, big players. Is that is that 196 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: daunting as you try to build a build, build up 197 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: a business like a village rocha. It's exactly the opposite. 198 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: If we were in the distribution business, it would be 199 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: incredibly daunting because distribution is very expensive, it requires scale, 200 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: and you're up against the biggest companies on the planet. 201 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: We're in the content creation to news and it's those 202 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: silos that our business model is exactly built to feed 203 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: the fact that Warner Brothers has built HBO Max, and 204 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: Disney has built Disney Plus and Peacock is coming uh 205 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: that will take up content that previously had been distributed 206 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: around the industry. So the previous consumers of Warner Brothers 207 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: content are going to be shut out of Warner Brothers 208 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: content as it all goes increasingly to HBO Max. That 209 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: opens the door for The Village road Show UM and 210 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: other investments that will make in this space. On the 211 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: production side, they'll be able to deal independently with all 212 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: the different platforms as an honest broker and be able 213 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: to deliver content that meets each one of those and 214 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: it won't be the same type of content. They'll have 215 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: a demographic that they'll be trying to fill, and we 216 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: have a very diverse catalog of content in development to 217 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: be able to meet those needs. So it's those silos 218 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: that are exactly the business opportunity that we're pursuing because 219 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: they've shut off content delivery to other platforms that continue 220 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: to need it, and they needed themselves as big as 221 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: Warner Brothers is. They can't create enough content for HBO Max. 222 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: It's a it's a huge enterprise that they're trying to create. 223 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: They're trying to compete head to head with Netflix. They 224 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: need high quality original content h and obviously too in 225 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: this environment, the business that the traditional TV series, the 226 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: construct of how studios made money on television series has 227 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: changed very much. For for a village road show, going 228 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: into a world where most of your upside is is 229 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: calculated up front, maybe not paid up front, but calculated 230 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: up front um that is still you feel like there's 231 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: enough of a robust business there to warrant to just 232 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: by your investment. We do. We do because it's a blend. 233 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: There's some element of the revenue stream that says you 234 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: described it's fixed margin business UM, and the margins if 235 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: you can control production costs and development costs and overhead, 236 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: are sufficient to to have a good business. But that's 237 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: not our only business. We still have the theatrical leg. 238 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: We still have our catalog of extremely valuable tent pole 239 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: titles with Matrix four coming down the pike and potentially 240 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: other sequels to our iconic properties those that's an important 241 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: leg in the business. There's UM, there's other you know, 242 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: we are dealing with the linear channels in a more 243 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: traditional television sense, so there will be international exploitation of 244 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: content we've developed for domestic platform so we look to 245 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: blend all of them. We don't want anyone to be 246 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: our soul business model. We think the combination of the 247 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: three adds value, and the value in the fixed price 248 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: contracts is stability. When you're a Village road Show sized enterprise, 249 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: extreme volatility is dangerous stability. Even though people tend to 250 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: focus on oh, it takes away your upside, it takes 251 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: away you're downside too, and so having a nice element 252 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: of known profit is very attractive as an investor. Does 253 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: Village Road Show? You know, for years, Village Road Show 254 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: was very closely aligned in the feature business with Warner Brothers. 255 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: You know, had had agreements together. Do there are those 256 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: still in existence? Do you still have that relationship or 257 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: are you more of a what more playing the field 258 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: these days in the film On the film side, we're 259 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: still a very active partner of Warner Brothers. Um it's 260 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: not an exclusive relationship and never actually was. The prior 261 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: incarnation of Village did several movies with Sony. We have 262 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: some older paramount pictures that our in our catalog. So 263 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: we've always had the ability and have always had relationships 264 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: with other studios, But we do have an anchor relationship 265 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: with Warner Brothers, and our development of that co owned 266 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: i P is central to to that part of that relationship, 267 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: and we look forward to working with them on a 268 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: continuing basis. But we are free to do other things 269 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: with other studios, either the television side of other studios 270 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: or the theatrical side of other studios. Will develop those 271 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: relationships and continue to do what what is the intersection 272 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: of the content that we have and the consumer appetite 273 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: that we see And when you're producing uh in the 274 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: TV series Realm, do you are there things that you 275 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: anticipate Bill Road Show producing entirely on their own or 276 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: are you gonna? Are you still in a business of 277 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: looking for partners on a project project. We're very opportunistic. 278 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: We're capable of doing anything on our own. UM. We 279 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: accept partners when they make sense within the context of 280 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: the project. We don't start things meeting a partner. That's 281 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: not our business model. UM. The company is very well 282 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: capitalized and capable internally of creating and developing and producing 283 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: anything that we start. But there are just certain times 284 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: where you know, somebody has a piece of I P 285 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: and you have a take and putting those two things 286 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: together makes a lot of sense. And that's where partnerships 287 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: are organic and important. M Um, let's talk about Europa Corp. 288 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: You are an investor in Europa Corp. And obviously that's 289 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: a company that that I'm sure gives you a really 290 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, a good sense of the global market for content. 291 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: But you know, beyond just beyond the United States, Um, 292 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: that company has obviously been through They've just been through 293 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: a restructuring, They've had a lot of management changes in 294 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: the last couple of years. What do you uh, you know, 295 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: what what has kept you invested in or rope for 296 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: Let me ask you the kind of the bigger picture 297 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: question about the content business that that I'm sure you 298 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: have to as an investor really evaluate. One of the 299 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: things that we've been talking about, the production models, the 300 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: profit models are all changing for film and television, and 301 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: that makes it very hard to to evaluate and really 302 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: put a number on the long term value of an 303 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: individual movie, an individual television program. How as you look 304 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: at as you know you have you have been in 305 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: the business of buying film libraries. You bought the Lake 306 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: Shore Entertainment Library a couple of years ago. Village Road 307 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: Show has a library. How do you go about, you know, 308 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: in a world where syndication futures is you if you will, 309 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: are not nearly as predictable as they once were because 310 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: the market is so much bigger. What are the what 311 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: are the measures? What are the what are the yard 312 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: sticks that you use to evaluate a library that you're 313 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: considering buying or or the potential of a property that 314 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: you're considering investing in at a time when when there's 315 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: so much about the way people make money is changing. Um, 316 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: there is a lot of change going on. We do 317 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: a very granular analysis of any library we're looking to acquire, 318 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: and what that means is you're really looking at the 319 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: individual pieces of content and what they're the rights are 320 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: that are associated with them, and what channels are available 321 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: to you and what channels will be exploited in the future. 322 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: So you do have a lot of visibility, even though 323 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: there's change coming. You do have a lot of visibility 324 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: because the path of content is sort of set when 325 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: it's created and then it's observable over over its life. 326 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is. The change that's 327 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: happening is going to be happening more to new content 328 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: than to the library content, and so it's easier to address. 329 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: So a new piece of content that you make for Netflix, 330 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't have the the life cycle that 331 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: it would have had fifteen years ago because Netflix doesn't 332 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: operate the way they did then, and um and the 333 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: world doesn't operate that way. So now you have an 334 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: opportunity to make something for a margin and you put 335 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: you don't get the international upside um. So that's sort 336 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: of what you're talking about in terms of the change 337 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: that's happening. The rights that had historically been left with 338 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: producers or monetized in different ways aren't being that monetized 339 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: in those ways. But there's a lot of library, older 340 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: assets that still are where the rights aren't controlled in 341 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: the same way as they're going to be controlled in 342 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: the future. There's still a very robust international demand for content. 343 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: The more and more um quality pieces of i P 344 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: that get locked up in these streaming platforms, the less 345 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: and less independent distributors in far entire tories have available. 346 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: So you know, we can look at things very gradually. 347 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: We can still understand how they're going to be exploited 348 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: over the next thirty years, and we can still measure 349 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 1: that with a high degree of of accuracy. And as 350 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: we continue to evolve our portfolio, we're always looking behind 351 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: and forward, you know, how we're our projections when we 352 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: made them, and how does that influence how we make 353 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: future projections. And that ropebust level of data that we 354 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: have gives us comfort, lets us sleep at night that 355 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: we understand how much content is worth because we look 356 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: at it. You can't just say in general how much 357 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: content is worth. You have to look at individual pieces 358 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: and model it out separately. Is it fair to say 359 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: that you are seeing a diminishing you know, revenue stream 360 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: coming from traditional sources like broadcast syndication, like cable syndication 361 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: in the US? I mean, is that are those businesses 362 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: you know, seeing the feeling the decline that we are 363 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: seeing in a macro sense of the shrinking cable universe. 364 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: The domestic TV is under a little bit of pressure, 365 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: but international TV is still robust, and overall the international 366 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: market is now larger than the US markets, So on 367 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: the whole, those those have balanced out. Um the counter, 368 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: is international TV or domestic TV. They still need content 369 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: and they still have audiences to cater to. They still 370 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: have a demographic that wants to see a certain thing. So, um, 371 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: while they're under pressure, they're under pressure to keep their 372 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: audience as well, and that keeps a certain amount of 373 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: of demand on their side that benefits owners and you 374 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: and your company. Vine at times will go into like 375 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: buying you know, very specific portfolios, portfolios of of interests 376 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: in in content that a producer might have or a 377 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: showrunner or a star. You get, you get back granular 378 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: in some deal making. Correct, absolutely, absolutely, We've we do 379 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: everything from single pictures either films or television shows up 380 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: to libraries of a hundred plus three hundred plus titles. 381 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: So we're capable of spanning the universe of of investment. 382 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: And do you do you license the library because you've 383 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: picked up you know, Village Road Show, Europa, Lake Shore, 384 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: do you have some some way to license the library. 385 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: Do you market the library as a as a Vine 386 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: Alternative Investments library or do you do it sort of 387 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: by brand when you're if you're trying to license, you know, 388 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: do a big content licensing deal. Right now, we're still 389 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: licensing titles under the original uh cat library names. So 390 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: if you're talking about Rischer or gay Lord or some 391 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: of the other titles that we've had where we have 392 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: international distribution, our distributions still uses is the the original 393 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: is just that because that's the familiar name in the marketplace. UM. 394 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: As we get bigger, we will entertain whether or not 395 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: the Vine brand UM gives us scale. You know, we've 396 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: acquired the capacity to service and sell those assets across 397 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: the globe, So we're doing all of that internally with 398 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: the acquisitions we've made. UM. So with increasing acquisitions, it 399 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: will just organically become more familiar to the marketplace that 400 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: these are Vine assets. So but at this at this moment, 401 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: do you have your own kind of like licensing and 402 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,239 Speaker 1: distribution team or it do we do? We have far 403 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: in sales and all of the back office support you 404 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: need to handle that from delivery to payment of participations, 405 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: all of those, all of the capabilities within the Vine 406 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: ecosystem go. And that's based in l A. It is 407 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: it is UM. Jim. Before you started, before you co 408 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: founded by an Alternative Investments in two thousand six, you 409 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: spent sixteen years with JP Morgan as a banker working 410 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: in asset backed securities. What was it about your time 411 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: at JP Morgan that led you to launch Fine? You know, 412 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: at JP Morgan, my clients were especially finance companies that 413 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: UM that needed to finance themselves in a creative way 414 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: and did so by issuing asset back securities backed by 415 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: any number of different esoteric assets from golf cars to airplanes, helicopters, 416 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,479 Speaker 1: regular cars, you name it. It was a very diverse 417 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: universe of customers that I served at JP Morgan. What 418 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: that taught me was, you know what investors looked for 419 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: in institutional grade investments and how they liked the cash 420 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: flows and the diverse the importance of diversification and and correlation. UM. 421 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: There was a consumer credit cycle and a commercial credit cycle, 422 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: and when I came across the entertainment sector, I realized 423 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: that there was no credit cycle associated with the entertainment sector. Yes, 424 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: it went up and down, but it didn't go up 425 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: and down with respect to when the stock market went 426 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: up and down or when credit went up and down, 427 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: when the economy went up and down. And we did 428 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: a lot of digging, we did a lot of homework, 429 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: and we were able to demonstrate that we could create 430 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: an institutional quality investment out of investing in media and entertainment, 431 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: and it was differentiated. It was an opportunity to give 432 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: something to the investor base that they had no access 433 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: to before. And we tested that business model and ultimately 434 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: launched our first fund in two thousand seven right before 435 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: the crash, and the crash very articulately demonstrated that those 436 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: assets could survive and thrive in a very adverse market 437 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: and that's what led to the growth of mine for 438 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: the last thirteen years. So you and so economic downturns 439 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: are are nothing new and you you have managed your 440 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: way through them in the past. Are there any lessons 441 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 1: from two thousand, two thousand eight, two tho nine period 442 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: you think that will be applicable to the you know 443 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: what we hope will be the great re emergence and 444 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: then in the coming months. You know that from an 445 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: investors standpoint, the big lesson and people tend to forget 446 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: this is just because the industry is not correlated. It 447 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you can't make bad deals. Uh. And it's 448 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: it's discipline and deal making. It's it's discipline and risk 449 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: taking that are the most important elements of success. It's 450 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: from my perspective, it's about creating partnerships that benefit both sides. 451 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: Those are the best deals, and when they do benefit 452 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: both sides, you know you're there to come back and 453 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: your partner is there to do more and and that 454 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: creates a virtuous circle of growth. So the lesson is 455 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: clearly just because there's there's a lot of liquidity and 456 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: this sector is not correlated, doesn't mean every deal you 457 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: can do is gonna make money. You really have to 458 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: stick to your to the nuts and bolts of what 459 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: you do and really understand the nuances of the space. 460 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: Great well, Jim, thank you for spending time with us 461 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: to help us do just that. I really appreciate it's 462 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: it's great to talk with you. Good luck getting through 463 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: this and we'll definitely stay tuned. Say thank you, Cynthia. 464 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: This was great. I appreciate the time to talk. Thanks 465 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: for listening. Be sure to tune in next week for 466 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: another episode of Strictly Business.