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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here Welcome back to Killers amongst Us,

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online. A major break

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Speaker 1: occurs in the hunt for Samantha Konegg and her kidnapper.

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Speaker 1: Investigators tracking Samantha's debit card across the country. The man

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Speaker 1: we now know as Israel keys in custody, joining us

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Speaker 1: to help crack the case. Investigative reporter Casey grow from

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Speaker 1: Alaska and FBI Special Agent Bobby Chicomb, who's actually in

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Speaker 1: on the FBI investigation to analyze the clues left behind.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, and

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned La psychoanalysts. The FBI now are

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Speaker 1: on the mission not to save Samantha, but to recover

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Speaker 1: her body. We were told by the interrogators that the

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Speaker 1: victim would was dismembered in five distinct parts. Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Killers amongst Us. He let the agents know in the

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Speaker 1: interrogation that he had taken her to a lake about

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Speaker 1: forty miles north of Anchorage. Remember this is still the winter,

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Speaker 1: and he went out onto this frozen lake that's used

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Speaker 1: ice fishermen use it all the time. So you see

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Speaker 1: these these tents that are put up by these ice

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Speaker 1: fishermen so they can sit around a fishing hole in

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Speaker 1: the cold and fish. So he got himself one of

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Speaker 1: these tents. He put it up, He drilled a hole

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Speaker 1: through the ice, and he put Samantha's body through that

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Speaker 1: hole to rest on the bottom of that lake. Bobby Chicone,

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Speaker 1: FBI special Agent. All the time you are out there

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Speaker 1: on the ice and you're digging a hole in it,

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Speaker 1: you're pulling her up, Mike, she's a fish. And in

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Speaker 1: parts you gotta be thinking about what Keys tells you.

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Speaker 1: He does with Samantha's bodyless, And the morning after the

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Speaker 1: kidnapping Israel, Keys rolled her body up and stuck it

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Speaker 1: in a box in his shed, and then woke his

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Speaker 1: girlfriend up and his child up, went to New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: boarded a cruise ship, and then came back about two

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Speaker 1: two and a half weeks later. Because of the cold temperatures,

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Speaker 1: she had frozen. And then he thought her out and

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Speaker 1: had to apply makeup to her in order to make

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Speaker 1: her look more lifelike. And also he told the detectives

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Speaker 1: he braided her hair as he had braided his daughter's hair,

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Speaker 1: and taken her photograph to be used in the ransom note,

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Speaker 1: not knowing that she ever wore her hair that way.

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Speaker 1: So you know, going into it, Bobby Chicone that she's

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Speaker 1: cut up into pieces. But we were told not to

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Speaker 1: let anyone know that and keep that very well guarded

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Speaker 1: secret because one of the conditions that Keys put on

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Speaker 1: the interrogators was that he didn't want that particular detail

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Speaker 1: released because he was fearful of what his daughter might

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Speaker 1: think about the dismemberment. You're killing me. Well, I've just

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Speaker 1: got to drink that in for a moment, you know,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Every

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Speaker 1: time I think I've heard it all, then I hear

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Speaker 1: something like that Israel Keys. He did not go from

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Speaker 1: zero to undred sixty, just like that was Samantha Koenick. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this ain't his first time at the rodeo, I can

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Speaker 1: guarantee you that. But he's worried. He takes the girl

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Speaker 1: at gunpoint with ski mask, leaving behind his Americano coffee

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Speaker 1: on the counter. He forces her into his car, He

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Speaker 1: puts her the shed, He rapes her over and over

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Speaker 1: in a basically dungeon atmosphere he's created in the shed,

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Speaker 1: turning the music up high and nobody can hear him.

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Speaker 1: He kills her, then he stitches her eyelids open, puts

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Speaker 1: makeup on her to take a ransom, photo freezes her.

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Speaker 1: But he doesn't want anybody to know about the dismemberment

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Speaker 1: because he thinks that might make him look bad. Really, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this man is more twisted and more evil than most

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Speaker 1: you're ever gonna come across. And again, his methods, his

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Speaker 1: way of thinking are just as twisted. So again he knows,

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Speaker 1: you know, killing somebody whatever, that dismemberment is going to

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Speaker 1: make people see me differently. And he's extremely concerned about

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Speaker 1: the heck, even though, as you said, not only has

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Speaker 1: he done all these horrible things, he lived his life

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Speaker 1: this way. Yeah, I mean, really, Cheryl, He stitches the

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Speaker 1: dead girl's eyes open to her brow and puts makeup

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Speaker 1: on a dead body alah Ted Bundy, But he's worried

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Speaker 1: about what his daughter might think about the dismemberment aspect,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, you know, I'm just a trial lawyer.

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Speaker 1: You're the shrink helped me out here. How can he

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Speaker 1: be worried about that? Detail getting out. Remember that sociopaths

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Speaker 1: have a thin veneer of sociability, thin it cracks at

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Speaker 1: the smallest disagreement with them. So what belongs to that? Okay,

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Speaker 1: stop right there, Bethany, what do you mean by a

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Speaker 1: thin veneer of sociability? I see, that's the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing I'd have to dissect and write notes. I'll just

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Speaker 1: figure it out. Have you ever met somebody who's incredibly

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Speaker 1: syrupy suite? They're solicitous. They ask you everything about yourself,

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Speaker 1: They ask I'm in the TV business? Are you kidding?

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Speaker 1: Everything's fake? Okay, so let's use fake instead of okay,

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Speaker 1: beth Bethany, Bethany, Bethany, Bethany. If you read and I

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Speaker 1: can't remember which book it was, I think it was

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Speaker 1: Death on the D List. Okay, there's a character in

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Speaker 1: there which is patterned after a real person with chamillnot name.

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Speaker 1: They change the name of the network from Global News

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Speaker 1: global News and Entertainment. I think I called it to

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Speaker 1: g n E. Okay, and Helly, the star is going

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Speaker 1: and they keep going it's not Global News and Entertainment.

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Speaker 1: Don't say that, and she goes, well, then, what what

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Speaker 1: does g NY stand for? And they go, it stands

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Speaker 1: for nothing. It's just gne that's all. Just go with it.

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Speaker 1: That is actually a true life scenario that happened to me.

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Speaker 1: When they change headline News to h L and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: but why can't I say headline news anymore? And they

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Speaker 1: went just don't say it. I'm like, well, why what

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Speaker 1: does angel Let's stand for? They go and stands for nothing.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to say that I made that up, but sadly,

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Speaker 1: you know it stands for nothing. You know, I remember

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Speaker 1: that moment, but it's yes, of course I've met somebody

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Speaker 1: like that. Really, are you kidding me? Okay, So when

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Speaker 1: Israel Keys is concerned about whether or not his daughter

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Speaker 1: is going to know about the dismemberment and the fact

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Speaker 1: that he put makeup on the victim after she was frozen,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that he stitched her eyes shut, when

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Speaker 1: he does not want his daughter to know those details,

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Speaker 1: it is as meaningless as when the network changed its

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Speaker 1: name from one to the other and there was no

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Speaker 1: underlying meaning to it. It is superficial. He just wants

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Speaker 1: to look good in front of his daughter. There's no

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Speaker 1: deeper meanings. We can search for meanings, but he as

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCallum said, is a twisted sicko and in some

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Speaker 1: I'm going to use the words, you know, wait a minute, Bethanie.

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Speaker 1: I expect Cheryl and myself to talk like that twisted

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Speaker 1: sicko per freak, but you're supposed to sugarcoat it with

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Speaker 1: fancy psychological names like I don't know, give me one. Okay. Well,

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Speaker 1: when Cheryl talks, had just sounds so important, so I

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Speaker 1: had to repeat her words, but I will use clinical terms.

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Speaker 1: Is real keys. I read the reports. The psychologists who

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Speaker 1: evaluated him said that he had antisocial tendencies. I would

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Speaker 1: say sociopaths, but that's what the psychologist said. This was

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Speaker 1: five and a half hours of testing when he was incarcerated,

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Speaker 1: and so I would say that someone was anti social.

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Speaker 1: There's failure to pay back debts to society. There's impulsivity,

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Speaker 1: there are perversions that the person has very strange sexual interests.

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Speaker 1: But they are also very concerned about what people think

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Speaker 1: about them. They're very grandiose, and it's they're concerned about

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Speaker 1: what other people think about them in the most superficial

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Speaker 1: of ways, like they just want to look good, but

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Speaker 1: they don't care if there's anything to back up the perception.

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Speaker 1: Like I have a husband of a patient of my

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Speaker 1: practice who goes around telling everybody that he graduated from Harvard.

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Speaker 1: He didn't, he graduated from a local city college. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he actually didn't graduate. He just dropped out. He just

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Speaker 1: wants to look good. But he doesn't care that everybody

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Speaker 1: can go on the internet and figure out whether or

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Speaker 1: not he really graduated from Harvard. It's superficial. It just

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Speaker 1: in the moment he wants to look good. He's not

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Speaker 1: caring at all if people are going to like research

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Speaker 1: and see if in fact he went to Harvard. And

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Speaker 1: that's kind of how Israel Keys is. He's not He

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Speaker 1: doesn't think that his daughter is going to like read

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Speaker 1: all the reports and know everything that he did to

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Speaker 1: this victim. He just thinks that, oh, you know, dad's

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Speaker 1: a good guy. You know this woman died, but you

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Speaker 1: know he took care of the body. And that's how

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Speaker 1: Israel Keys thinks. It's very superficial. There's no big picture thinking.

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Speaker 1: It's not thought out in any systematic way. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure right now that Harvard University is so proud that

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Speaker 1: somehow you've dragged them into the mind of a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: But Bobby, you come with me, FBI special agent. As

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Speaker 1: much as he wanted to keep it a secret that

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Speaker 1: he had actually dismembered this young girl, it was very clear.

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Speaker 1: But I'll sort to that. I'll go to you on

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Speaker 1: that Casey Grow from Alaska Public Media. I mean, how

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Speaker 1: could you stand on the edge of that lake and

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Speaker 1: not know? But it was clear. I guess that. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was not just one body that came out. It

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Speaker 1: was you know, smaller pieces than just one whole body. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know I think that was reported that day

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Speaker 1: or the next day, you know, like that. Um, you

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Speaker 1: know that that was one of the things that they

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Speaker 1: noticed when watching the the FBI dive team go into

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Speaker 1: this ice and started pulling things out. Um. But there

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Speaker 1: was you know, there was some covering the they you know,

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Speaker 1: the FBI was trying to be as discreet as they

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Speaker 1: could about it. But yeah, I think it was kind

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Speaker 1: of clear. You know, Bobby chicon with me there on

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Speaker 1: the scene on that ice recovering the body of Samantha Koenig,

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Speaker 1: the Alaskan barista, Bobby Chicona, I want to know what

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Speaker 1: you were thinking, what was going through your mind as

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Speaker 1: you're standing out there on the ice. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: got to be bitter sweet because you've wanted to find Samantha,

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Speaker 1: but not like this. What were you thinking out there? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, my team is trained to do this, and

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Speaker 1: we do this all too often, unfortunately. So this is

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Speaker 1: certainly not the first body recovery and certainly not the

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Speaker 1: first child we've recovered. So it really breaks down at

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Speaker 1: the two phases for us. Once we're looking for what

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Speaker 1: we're looking for, the person we're looking for, it's really

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Speaker 1: a target of a search for us. So we divorce

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Speaker 1: ourselves from the emotions that this is a human being,

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Speaker 1: because we need to maintain that emotional distance to maintain

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Speaker 1: our focus on the search, because I'm about to put

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Speaker 1: some of my people, my divers, into an environment that's

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Speaker 1: hostile to human life. That means they could die down there,

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Speaker 1: and so I need them focused on what they're doing

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Speaker 1: to stay alive, to retrieve the things that we're looking for.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, that was five items, five objects,

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Speaker 1: five distinct parts. And so once we locate the victim,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Bobby,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean by five distinct parts? Now there's

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Speaker 1: no separating emotion or reality here. I want to know

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Speaker 1: what you mean when you say five distinct parts. Well,

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Speaker 1: we were told by the interrogators that the victim would

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Speaker 1: was dismembered in five distinct parts and deposit ins the lakes,

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Speaker 1: and five distinct parts. We were told that she was

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Speaker 1: the parts were weighted down with some kind of wire

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Speaker 1: and some kind of weight. And so when we saw

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Speaker 1: on ours, we did see five very distinct parts on

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Speaker 1: a very otherwise clean and sandy bottom of that lake.

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Speaker 1: And so when we turned the sown around, we saw

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Speaker 1: those five pieces. And so then we sent our robot

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Speaker 1: down with the video, and then when the divers went

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Speaker 1: down they did the recovery and those of those five pieces.

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Speaker 1: Now the difference we did here because we wanted to

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Speaker 1: try to keep the dismemberment detail as secret as possible.

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Speaker 1: Instead of putting using five different bags, we put one

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Speaker 1: body bag and we put all five pieces in one bag,

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Speaker 1: so that when we brought Samantha back to the surface,

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Speaker 1: we lifted only one bag out of the water. We

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Speaker 1: immediately brought that bag into a covered pop up shelter,

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Speaker 1: and the medical examiners, investigators and myself opened the bag

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Speaker 1: for the first time once it was in that covered shelter.

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Speaker 1: So you're out there on the ice and as you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a amateur diver. You may be the greatest diver

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Speaker 1: in the world, but any thank you go wrong, especially

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Speaker 1: in those conditions, bobb each cone. So you're standing there

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Speaker 1: sending your people down and cold water dive suits. What happens.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear the mechanics of how you retrieve

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Speaker 1: five bags containing the remains of Semantha cone Egg off

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Speaker 1: the bottom of a freezing cold lake. How do you

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Speaker 1: do it? Our divers are on a surface supplied air

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Speaker 1: system with communications and full dive helmets, so they're protected

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Speaker 1: from what we call an overhead environment, which means that

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Speaker 1: you can't go directly to the surface. There's something blocking you,

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Speaker 1: in this case ice. So they are tethered to the

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Speaker 1: surface with that big umbilical that supplies them with the

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Speaker 1: air to breathe and which provides us with the communication

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Speaker 1: and video from their helmets. So they go down in

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Speaker 1: a diver pair. I put both of the divers in

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Speaker 1: the water. At the surface, we check all their systems.

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Speaker 1: These are all this is all equipment that's rated to

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Speaker 1: work underwater. So the first few minutes are testing your

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Speaker 1: equipment at the surface. So they now descend a foot

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Speaker 1: or two. They stay there to make sure that none

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Speaker 1: of the equipment will freeze up, that they'll be able

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Speaker 1: to basically survive while they do this work. And so

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Speaker 1: once we're confident that everything's working properly, that nothing is

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Speaker 1: going to freeze up on us, then I communicate with

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Speaker 1: them and they descend to the bottom. The one saving

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Speaker 1: grace about frozen water or what are that cold is

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Speaker 1: it's very clear because a lot of the sediment has

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Speaker 1: settled to the bottom. Most of the even the microscopic

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Speaker 1: life is dormant in that kind of temperature, so it's

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Speaker 1: very clear. So from the surface or from a few

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Speaker 1: feet below the surface, as they look down, we can

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Speaker 1: see on our video camera, and they obviously certainly can

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Speaker 1: see the five distinct parts that lay below them about

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Speaker 1: forty five ft. So we then slowly have them descend,

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Speaker 1: and they descend because they're heavy. We have a tender

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Speaker 1: holding each of their um biblical cords allowing them to

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Speaker 1: descend to the bottom. So they slowly go to the bottom,

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Speaker 1: and we know that because it's um, it's all frozen

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Speaker 1: and the bottom is going to be very silty, so

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Speaker 1: as soon as they impact the bottom, there will be

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Speaker 1: clouds of silt that that puff up. So we try

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Speaker 1: to get them as close to at least the first

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Speaker 1: of the five as possible, and they do, and they descend.

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Speaker 1: One of them has a tool bag attached to him

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Speaker 1: with different different tools that they might need. The other

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Speaker 1: has a large underwater body bag specifically designed to work underwater.

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Speaker 1: And so they go about the business of retrieving the

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Speaker 1: items and the pieces that we're looking for, and they

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Speaker 1: I communicate with them, and I'm watching on their helmet

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Speaker 1: video camera the entire time. They get to the first

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Speaker 1: piece and they open the bag and they start the recovery.

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Speaker 1: And they placed the first piece in the bag up

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Speaker 1: until the point where we're in contact with the victim.

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Speaker 1: There's a distance to Um. Did you just say they

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Speaker 1: opened the bag under the water. Yes, it's folded up

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Speaker 1: because dragging a bag, an open bag through the water

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Speaker 1: is almost impossible. It's just got too much drag in

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Speaker 1: the water and it's too an efficient. So the bag

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Speaker 1: is folded up very tightly. Um. Once you get on scene,

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Speaker 1: you unclip it from your belt and you unroll it

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Speaker 1: and then you can start using it unzipp and things

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Speaker 1: like that. UM. So up until that point, we've maintained

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Speaker 1: that emotional distance that's needed to focus on staying alive

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Speaker 1: in that environment and UM. But once once we're in

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Speaker 1: contact with the victim, UM, the recovery takes a distinct

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Speaker 1: at least for our emotional shift. And now it becomes

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Speaker 1: UM much more solemn for us and much more I

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Speaker 1: got a question for you, Bobby. When you as you're

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Speaker 1: pulling up, they come up with the black plastic bags.

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Speaker 1: You know what's in them? When you get them in

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Speaker 1: your hands, what do you do with them? UM? At

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Speaker 1: the surface, they come up with the with the bag,

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Speaker 1: and we have you know, three or four people around

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Speaker 1: the hole reaching down in and grabbing ahold of it.

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Speaker 1: And slowly and now because in effect where Paul barrows

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Speaker 1: at this point, UM, and we we slowly moved the

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Speaker 1: bag onto a sled that's at the edge of the

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Speaker 1: of the hole in the ice, and we moved that

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Speaker 1: sled into a covered UM into a covered pop up

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Speaker 1: shelter because we knew there were high powered cameras focused

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Speaker 1: on us from the shoreline of the of the lake. UM.

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Speaker 1: You mean from the media, Bobby, when did you actually

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Speaker 1: look in a bag and how did you determine it

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Speaker 1: was Samantha. Well, as soon as we got the UM,

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Speaker 1: the sled into the pop up shelter, the medical examine

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Speaker 1: investigator and I started on zipping the bag and UM,

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Speaker 1: and that's when we saw the body parts in there,

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Speaker 1: and then uh, Samantha. We we looked at Samantha's head,

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Speaker 1: we turned the head over and then of course we

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Speaker 1: could do a visual um identification of her faith. Listen,

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Speaker 1: you know the things. And I didn't do them because

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Speaker 1: I don't feel bad about him, and I didn't do

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Speaker 1: them because I felt I had no other choice. I

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Speaker 1: did them for myself. So it's just as good. It's

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Speaker 1: better actually for me to keep o them to myself

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Speaker 1: because they're from their mind. And so unless I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get something in return aside from just an ego

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Speaker 1: boost by talking about them, then I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: talk about them. I don't have any interest in it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I just don't. I didn't. The main

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Speaker 1: thing is I just lost my nerve right at the

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Speaker 1: end because because I mean, that wasn't I mean, that

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Speaker 1: never stopped me after that you know with people would

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Speaker 1: always talk to me. You are hearing the voice of

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Speaker 1: Israel Keys, the man we now know murdered the Alaska barista,

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Speaker 1: Samantha Konig. But that is the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 1: To John Linley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, how

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Speaker 1: many people do authorities believe Keys murdered? Well, as they

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Speaker 1: were interviewing him those hours and hours of interrogation, Keys

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Speaker 1: finally indicated that in addition to Samantha Konig, there were others,

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Speaker 1: in fact, several others. And this is when he started

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Speaker 1: sort of bribing the investigators. Well, if you'll give me

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Speaker 1: a cigar, or if you'll give me a candy bar,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you this story or that story. He was

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Speaker 1: very vague about a number of stories, but one that

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00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 1: he really honed in on and gave them a good

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Speaker 1: bit of information was a couple in Vermont that had

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Speaker 1: been missing for months. To doctor Bethany Marshall, California psycho analyst,

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Speaker 1: you know, serial killers don't just happen. You can tell

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Speaker 1: very early on that there's something very very disturbing about

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Speaker 1: a serial killer, even back to childhood. Sometimes. Well that's

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Speaker 1: one of the criteria for evaluating whether or not someone's

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Speaker 1: a serial killer or a sociopath or a psychopath. Is

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Speaker 1: cruelty to animals or to children or people during childhood.

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Speaker 1: And I read a little bit about Israel Key's history,

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Speaker 1: and apparently he had a love for guns, and he

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Speaker 1: sat in one of the interviews that he loved to

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Speaker 1: hunt in the woods. Again, this is as a child,

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Speaker 1: and he wanted to kill anything that quote had a

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Speaker 1: heartbeat end quote. Such a very unusual way for an

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Speaker 1: adult to describe their childhood. And what that tells me

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Speaker 1: is that even at that young aide, the factors that

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Speaker 1: create sociopathy, we're already in him. Whether it was genetic

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Speaker 1: or psychological, biological, environmental, he had those factors. And I

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Speaker 1: would say the distinguishing factor of the serial killer is cruelty.

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Speaker 1: You know, we have a lot of sociopaths that become

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Speaker 1: let's say, the president of Enron, or they rise to

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Speaker 1: the top of corporations, and they put all their cruelty

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Speaker 1: into having power over other people in the realm of finances,

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Speaker 1: in the realm of industry. But you have what we

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Speaker 1: call a disorganized sociopath, a low level sociopath like serial

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Speaker 1: Keys and his power and cruelty goes into the destruction

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Speaker 1: of life a little bit like a lion on the

365
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Speaker 1: savannah may just be waiting for deer and antelope a

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Speaker 1: springbalk to come by, tears its throat out and just says, yummy,

367
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Speaker 1: I have lunch. It doesn't mean much more than that,

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Speaker 1: except in the case of the serial killer, there's the

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Speaker 1: enjoyment in carrying the throat out right. Cheryl McCollum, Director

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Speaker 1: Coal Case Research Institute. What do all serial killers have

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Speaker 1: in common? Fancy mosley, They set fires, they kill an animal,

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Speaker 1: and we often see that they went the bed up

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Speaker 1: until you know of late age, like into their you know,

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Speaker 1: eleven twelve year old ages. So that's usually the triangle

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Speaker 1: people look for. Things he has already said. They're not uncommon.

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Speaker 1: We saw it with Jeffrey Dahmer where he killed you know,

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Speaker 1: the dead squirrel and kept it for lunch and washed it,

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Speaker 1: you know, disintegrate basically in a shoe box. They do

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Speaker 1: these things. So there are flags. There are, you know,

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Speaker 1: things that people know to be true, and what he's

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Speaker 1: saying goes right. In Serial Killer one on one, well

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Speaker 1: Key's manifested tendencies of a serial killer Early and Life Listen.

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Speaker 1: He's describes his child at home as free from abuse

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Speaker 1: and neglect, but he also remembers having violent urges. He

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00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: talked about having these urges and these dark urges at

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Speaker 1: a very young age. I ever thought everybody else was

387
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: faking it and everybody was life and they just didn't

388
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Speaker 1: act like it, or I figured that I was demon

389
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 1: child or whatever. I don't think it's an emotional attachment

390
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: that he's talking about when he says, you know, I

391
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: was battling these demons. It's a conflict between his parents

392
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Speaker 1: and all of society telling him this is how we behave.

393
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Speaker 1: But as you mature it, you can shed that confusion.

394
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: I mean, all that went away, feel bad about the daymore.

395
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: That was Keys's journey, and that's the maturation of a psychopath.

396
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: I've known since I was fourteen that there was things

397
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: that that I thought were normal and that we're okay.

398
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: Nobody else was normal. There's some friends staying with us

399
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: when there was Catavars that was always getting into the trash,

400
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: and they all went up into the woods and I

401
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: took a piece of port and tied it to this tree,

402
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: and I shot it in the stomach. It ran around

403
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: and around the tree and then crashed into the tree.

404
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: I mean I actually kind of laughed a little, but

405
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: then I looked over and the kid who was about

406
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: my age was throwing up like he was really, I

407
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: don't know, traumatized. I guess you would say that was

408
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: pretty much the last time anybody went in the woods

409
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: with me. I learned that lesson. What he recognized from

410
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: that is not that he had to change what he

411
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: was doing, just that he had to hide it from

412
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: other people. That's when I just started doing stuff by

413
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: myself pretty much exclusively. You're hearing the serial killer Israel

414
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: Keys in his own words, and you know, Cheryl McCollum,

415
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: you and I have been there so many times, chekoone.

416
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: You have been to where you're in the room listening

417
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: to a confession, and I've watched other agents and other

418
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: law enforcement kind of laugh along with the purp as

419
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: he says something he thinks is funny. I could never

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00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: do it. I just sit there and stare at them

421
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: with dead eyes, and I hear Israel Keys just actually

422
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: start laughing, snickering at his own words. Did I get

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00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: that right, Cheryl? He did? He say he shot a

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00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: cat and hung it and watched it twirl around till

425
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: it died. Absolutely, these agents in that room did a

426
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: remarkable job from beginning to end. And this was almost

427
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: like this sympathy and they just were orchestrating it and

428
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: they were in charge, but they let him believe that

429
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: he was running the show. It was perfection as far

430
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: as interview when interrogation goes, and they were able to

431
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: extract so much information from him, Nancy that we can

432
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: learn from so the next time we have to combat

433
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: someone like this, we have more in our arsenal to do.

434
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: So it was sheer, brilliant. Well, I have to agree

435
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: with you on that. And this is why nobody can

436
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: connect Israel Keys a serial killer to Samantha Koni. He

437
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: had absolutely no connection. Bobby Chicon, FBI special Agent. When

438
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 1: you have a homicide, you start there at that point

439
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: with that body, okay, processing the crime scene, everything around it, primary, secondary,

440
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: tertiary crime scenes. Then you start moving out. Then you

441
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: go to the husband, the boyfriend, the coffee show up

442
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: free that comes by every morning to get coffee, the

443
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 1: friends she used to work with, the boys you had

444
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: too high school, the hat, a crush, the neighbor with

445
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: the tro and then on and out and out and

446
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: out and out, and nothing connected her in any way.

447
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: Two israel keys, which made it literally like looking for

448
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: a needle in a haystack. For the cops, there's no connection.

449
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: But this guy has committed murders all over the country.

450
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: How has he done it? Bobby ain't gotten away with it. Well,

451
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: the two things that you know he was, he was

452
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: dead on in his thinking that when he told us

453
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: the two things he knew he should be random too.

454
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: And when I invested eat a homicide is one of

455
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: the things I learned, and what we call homicide school

456
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: was you draw two circles. You drew one circle around

457
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: the victim, and you put one circle around the geographic

458
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: location where the body was founded. With a homicide took place,

459
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: and your ninety five percent of the time, your suspect

460
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: is going to come out of one of those circles.

461
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: So you look at who's associated with this particular victim,

462
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: and like you said, ex boyfriends, people at tros, all

463
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: of those people are in that circle. In the other circle,

464
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: or all the people surrounding maybe that coffee shop regulars

465
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: to the coffee shop, people that have been hanging around

466
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: the coffee shop people. You know, the crazy guy that's

467
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: always been there on a certain morning. So that's the

468
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: second circle of people. Now he's new. He kept random

469
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: to his victim and random to the location that that

470
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,479
Speaker 1: would keep him out of the suspect pool. On almost

471
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: all his homicides. He was very methodical about that, and

472
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: those are the two things that aids investigators take a

473
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: listen to. First assistant US Attorney in Alaska, Kevin felled us, well,

474
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: we finally believe that, you know, he killed at least

475
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: eleven people, and frankly, I think it could be more.

476
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: You know, at one point when he was in jail,

477
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: we found that he had drawn in his own blood

478
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: eleven skulls on a piece of paper. We also asked

479
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: him about the number of people. So there's more victims

480
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: out there, and it is really going to be through

481
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: something somebody may have seen somewhere that at the time

482
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: they didn't think was important. But if they can look

483
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: at that timeline and they may have any information, please

484
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: report it because that's gonna be what leads us to

485
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: the next step and hopefully give closure to more families.

486
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: That's from my friends at hln okay. I was trying

487
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: to soak that in, you know, Cheryl. Most guys are like, um,

488
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: let's see what are they doing. They're watching football or

489
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: they're not. Just stereotype, don't get mad, Bobby Shicom, John Limley,

490
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: Casey Grub. They're watching football, they're watching the Masters. They're

491
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: obsessed with their car or their job. They're not drawing

492
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: skulls and their own blood. Cheryl, help me. This is

493
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: the devil on earth. I mean, that's what he is.

494
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: I mean I can't imagine the things that this man

495
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: has done, the ease in which he talks about him,

496
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: the time that he took to prepare, the time that

497
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: he took to carry all this stuff out, and here's

498
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: the real kick nasing, the time that he took to

499
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: make sure everything was in place before he did it.

500
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: Most men are pretty you know, it's kind of seat

501
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: of their pants, like, hey, that's a good enough victim.

502
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: It's pretty random. I'll just grab it right now. And

503
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: they get caught because there's no plannings. This man took

504
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 1: so much time to plan and then took time in

505
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: between that not only was there no connection with his victims,

506
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: there was no connection with him in the cities and

507
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: states he was in. This guy traveled all across the country.

508
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: Now you see him, Now you don't Who is Israel? Kis?

509
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye from