WEBVTT - DeBlasio Reveals Plans to Shut Infamous Rikers Prison (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Even if you don't live in New York, you probably

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<v Speaker 1>know about Riker's Island if you watch Law and Order episodes.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the jail complex that the prosecutors on the show

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<v Speaker 1>often threatened to send suspects to, and where they often

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<v Speaker 1>plea bargain with the incarcerated. It's also a jail notorious

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<v Speaker 1>for extraordinary violence and brutality. A report in April by

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<v Speaker 1>a federal monitor said guards use brutal force against inmates

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<v Speaker 1>at an alarming rate, and the fights among inmates have grown.

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<v Speaker 1>The city has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to

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<v Speaker 1>improve conditions at Rikers to no avail now. After increasing

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<v Speaker 1>public and political pressure to close down Rikers, New York

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<v Speaker 1>City Mayor Bill Deblasio has come out with a plan

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<v Speaker 1>to shut the jail down over a ten year span,

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<v Speaker 1>but there are a lot of ifs to making it work.

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<v Speaker 1>My guests are Michael Mushlin, professor at Pace University Law School,

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<v Speaker 1>and Jonathan Blanks, a researcher at the Cato Institute. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>begin with both of your reactions to de Blasio's plan. Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>why don't you start? Sure? Well, I think it's a

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<v Speaker 1>very sensible plan that I think is in the interests

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<v Speaker 1>of all New Yorkers. Rikers Island really has become a

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<v Speaker 1>notorious place. I called it an OpEd I wrote recently,

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<v Speaker 1>a devil's island. Uh. It's isolated, it's violent, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's wasteful. And I think the decision to close it,

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<v Speaker 1>while it's very difficult to accomplishes, a very sensible one,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think it will benefit all of us. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think the mayor's responding to a report of a

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<v Speaker 1>commission that studied this subject for a while, and that

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<v Speaker 1>that was head but headed by the Chief Judge of

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<v Speaker 1>the New York State, the ex Chief Judge of the

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<v Speaker 1>retired Chief Judge of New York State that recommended this,

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<v Speaker 1>and um and uh, I think it's a uh. I

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<v Speaker 1>applaud the mayor for endorsing the report of the Litman report.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Jonathan, what's your reaction. I too was impressed

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<v Speaker 1>with the report. I think his plan is it correctly

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<v Speaker 1>identifies a lot of the problems with Rikers and Jail's

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<v Speaker 1>generally it's not a perfect plan, but the goals, the

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<v Speaker 1>goals that he lifted to, you know, find different ways

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<v Speaker 1>to reduce the number of people that are going to

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<v Speaker 1>be in there in the first place is very laudable. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>I think one of the things that isn't quite mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>in the plan, but I think people need to think

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<v Speaker 1>about is using a cage as a remedy to socialis

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<v Speaker 1>is not necessarily the best thing. It should be the

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<v Speaker 1>last uh, the last remedy to UH for people who

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<v Speaker 1>commit crimes. If people can be released on their own

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<v Speaker 1>recognizance as the people are, that's good. But there's still

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<v Speaker 1>a very large population there that are subject to these abuses,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think finding more and better ways, some of

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<v Speaker 1>which were outlined in his plan are is a very

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<v Speaker 1>good step forward. The plan calls for reducing the inmate

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<v Speaker 1>population down to five thousand. New York City had a

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<v Speaker 1>record low crime rate last year, So Michael, how will

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<v Speaker 1>that be done? Well? First of all, I think that

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<v Speaker 1>it's important to point out that most of the people

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<v Speaker 1>on Rikers Island have not been convicted of any crime.

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<v Speaker 1>They're they're being held while awaiting trial. It's also important

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<v Speaker 1>to note that that way, that's that over two thirds

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<v Speaker 1>of them only spent about thirty days in Rikers Island.

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<v Speaker 1>So the notion of this is we're not talking about

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<v Speaker 1>a prison where people have been convicted and and they're

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<v Speaker 1>being sent to They're being sent to prison for rehabilitation,

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<v Speaker 1>for punishment, for for for safety of the community. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's one thing to talk about. And so really the

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<v Speaker 1>way so and that short period of time that so

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<v Speaker 1>many people spend there may not seem that significant, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's a highly disruptive, it's highly expensive, and we're punishing

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<v Speaker 1>people who haven't been convicted. Um. So it's really important

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<v Speaker 1>to try to figure out smart ways to reduce that

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<v Speaker 1>that um that population, and it can be done. There

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<v Speaker 1>really are three basic techniques that we've already begun to

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<v Speaker 1>implement and that have led to a significant reduction. At

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<v Speaker 1>its height, there were twenty thousand people that were held

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<v Speaker 1>on Rikers Island about twenty years ago and now we're

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<v Speaker 1>down to about ten thousand, and this plan is to

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<v Speaker 1>reduce it to five thousand. And the way to do

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<v Speaker 1>that is to is to come up with alternatives to bail,

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<v Speaker 1>to reform the bails system, to figure out rather than

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<v Speaker 1>putting a dollar amount on who who goes to prison,

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<v Speaker 1>who goes to I'm sorry, who goes to jail, and

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<v Speaker 1>who goes to Rikers Island to make assessments, realistic assessments

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<v Speaker 1>of really who is going to need to be detained

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<v Speaker 1>rather than just put a number on it. You know

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<v Speaker 1>that the number is usually around two thousand dollars, and

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<v Speaker 1>if a person has that two thousand dollars, they buy

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<v Speaker 1>their way out. That that really doesn't make sense in

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<v Speaker 1>two ways. There are people that can't afford the two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars and then they go to prison. They go

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<v Speaker 1>to jail essentially because they're poor, or there are people

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<v Speaker 1>there's some people for whom we don't really we don't

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<v Speaker 1>We don't want them to buy their way out because

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<v Speaker 1>they're either not going to come back to trial or

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<v Speaker 1>because maybe they posed a thread. I've been talking with

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Mushlin, professor at Pace University Law School, and Jonathan Blanks,

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<v Speaker 1>are researcher at the Cato Institute about New York City

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<v Speaker 1>Mayor Build Blasio's plan to shut down Rikers Island Prison

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<v Speaker 1>over a ten year spam and there are a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of ifs involved in this. Jonathan. An independent commission created

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<v Speaker 1>by the City Council that we were talking about before,

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<v Speaker 1>call for state law reforms such as reclassifying criminal offenses

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<v Speaker 1>such as fair evasion, marijuana possession in public you and

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<v Speaker 1>gravity knives as civil offenses bill. The mayor has not

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<v Speaker 1>said has not approved that. Is that something that we

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<v Speaker 1>should be thinking about. Yeah, I mean, if you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to think about changing in jail policy, you also have

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<v Speaker 1>to think of the inputs enough going to be policing policy.

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<v Speaker 1>So when the police are out there giving summons is

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<v Speaker 1>or making arrests for whatever it is, you know, they

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<v Speaker 1>if they continue to use the criminal law to move

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<v Speaker 1>them into jail, that's just going There's nothing uh rockers

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<v Speaker 1>can do about that if they have to take them in.

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<v Speaker 1>So making these civil offenses can reduce the jail population,

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<v Speaker 1>reduce the stress on trying to find places to house

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<v Speaker 1>these people. And Michael, is this really then a plan

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<v Speaker 1>for criminal justice reform as well? Well? I I think

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<v Speaker 1>it is, and I think we could even make it

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<v Speaker 1>more so Actually, um um, when way I think we

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<v Speaker 1>could really make it much more comprehensive is if we

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<v Speaker 1>use if we use the land that is available on

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<v Speaker 1>Rikers Island two to bring back people who are serving

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<v Speaker 1>prison sentences in far flung places in New York State,

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<v Speaker 1>of New York State, New York City people who are

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<v Speaker 1>sentenced to prison are sentenced two hundred miles away from

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<v Speaker 1>New York. Many of those people are parents. There's a

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and five thousand children who have who have a

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<v Speaker 1>parent in prison. Uh. All the research shows that if

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<v Speaker 1>those people were held whole closer to the communities from

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<v Speaker 1>which they come, we would get far more benefit, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>far less recidivism, far more reintegration into the community. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I proposed, and I wrote an OpEd on this

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<v Speaker 1>that was published by the Daily News about a month ago,

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<v Speaker 1>that once we closed Rikers Island for preacher detainees, we

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<v Speaker 1>should seriously consider using that that location, which is remote

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<v Speaker 1>for pre trial detainees, but is ironically not at all

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<v Speaker 1>remote for people who are serving New York City people

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<v Speaker 1>are serving prison sentences, to create to build prisons, to

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<v Speaker 1>use that space for for prisoners. Okay, speaking of prisoners, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan in new jails. The there's a question that maybe

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<v Speaker 1>a hurdle, and that's building smaller jails in each of

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<v Speaker 1>the boroughs to replace Rikers. And there are no specific

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<v Speaker 1>details on that in Doblasio's plan. Isn't that bound to

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<v Speaker 1>bring opposition from residents in those boroughs? Most certainly. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean would be sort of not in my backyard quintessential

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<v Speaker 1>example as jails. No one wants them in their in

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<v Speaker 1>their neighborhoods. But we really have to think about what

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<v Speaker 1>we're trying to do, what they're trying to do here,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is, you know, trying to make community based

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<v Speaker 1>system for for rehabilitation and to just basically the community

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<v Speaker 1>takes care of its own people. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>a good idea. I think it's going to be along um,

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<v Speaker 1>excuse me, it's going to be a long haul trying

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<v Speaker 1>to convince people that is the right thing to do.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think if you can convey the benefits of

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<v Speaker 1>not necessarily throwing people in cages, getting people into rehab

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<v Speaker 1>getting the mental health uh services that they need, that

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<v Speaker 1>communities may may become more open to these uh these

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<v Speaker 1>new buildings. And Michael, this also contains actually one billion

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<v Speaker 1>dollars in capital improvements just to keep the infrastructure at

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<v Speaker 1>Rikers over the next ten years. Is that a lot

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<v Speaker 1>to spend on a prison that's going to be, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>not used any longer. Well, I think two things. One

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<v Speaker 1>is I think that can fit into what I said

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<v Speaker 1>earlier that a lot of money to spend. But Riker's

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<v Speaker 1>Island right now is really a very dangerous place where

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<v Speaker 1>people are really being harmed significantly, not only the people

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<v Speaker 1>that are being held there, but the staff that works there.

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<v Speaker 1>And so it's really imperative that we meet minimal constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>standards wherever we hold people. And so I think that

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<v Speaker 1>that spen, that that expenditure is essential, especially since we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about it at least a decade UH in the transition.

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<v Speaker 1>But if we were to use that money to renovate

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<v Speaker 1>those facilities, we would then have places that we could

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<v Speaker 1>use for for prisoners. The other thing that I would

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<v Speaker 1>say about locating the jails that that are going to

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<v Speaker 1>be UH needed in the in the boroughs outside of

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<v Speaker 1>Riker's Island, I want to second what Jonathan said about

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<v Speaker 1>that and also say we already have people in in

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<v Speaker 1>jails in the local boroughs, so this isn't a new thing. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>we would we love locating them in areas near courts,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's not talking about putting them into into purely

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<v Speaker 1>residential purely residential areas. And also the other thing to

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<v Speaker 1>say is that most of these people are non violent people.

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<v Speaker 1>So Jonathan, what is your opinion about whether the closure

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<v Speaker 1>of rikers within ten years is likely to happen. Um, well,

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<v Speaker 1>a ten years is a long time in politics shift

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<v Speaker 1>and if there's like an increasing crime, or if there's

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a new mayor that comes in it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>want to do it, obviously, that's UH that that could

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<v Speaker 1>change things directly. I don't know how likely it is,

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<v Speaker 1>but I hope, I hope it happens. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>any any way to try and lower the number of

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<v Speaker 1>people in there is UH an attempt worth making. And Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>about a minute left, what's your opinion about whether this

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<v Speaker 1>can be done in ten years. I think it can

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<v Speaker 1>definitely be done in ten years. I think it's going

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<v Speaker 1>to take the will to do it. I it's really

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<v Speaker 1>so wonderful that we have an elected officials that that's

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<v Speaker 1>running the City of New York who has committed to

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<v Speaker 1>doing this, and the City Council is also on board,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think it's gonna you know, I think if

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<v Speaker 1>we have a commitment to making a more sensible, safer,

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<v Speaker 1>SMARTYR system, one that really benefits the people of New York,

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<v Speaker 1>I think I think we've shown as a city we

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<v Speaker 1>can make these things happen. All right, Well, thank you both.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Michael Mushland, professor at Pace University Law School, and

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Blanks, a research at the Cato Institute. That's it

0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.600
<v Speaker 1>for this edition of Bloomberg Law. Will be back Monday

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<v Speaker 1>at one pm Wall Street Time, thanks to our producer

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<v Speaker 1>David Suckerman and our technical director Chris try Comey. Coming

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<v Speaker 1>up next Bloomberg Markets with Carol Masser and Corey Johnson. So, Corey,

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<v Speaker 1>what's coming up. We've got a really cool guest CEO

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<v Speaker 1>commercial stuff. Really fascinating company. We're gonna talk about CEO

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