1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,240 Speaker 1: Even if you don't live in New York, you probably 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,439 Speaker 1: know about Riker's Island if you watch Law and Order episodes. 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: It's the jail complex that the prosecutors on the show 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: often threatened to send suspects to, and where they often 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: plea bargain with the incarcerated. It's also a jail notorious 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: for extraordinary violence and brutality. A report in April by 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: a federal monitor said guards use brutal force against inmates 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: at an alarming rate, and the fights among inmates have grown. 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: The city has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to 10 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: improve conditions at Rikers to no avail now. After increasing 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 1: public and political pressure to close down Rikers, New York 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: City Mayor Bill Deblasio has come out with a plan 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: to shut the jail down over a ten year span, 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: but there are a lot of ifs to making it work. 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: My guests are Michael Mushlin, professor at Pace University Law School, 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Blanks, a researcher at the Cato Institute. Let's 17 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: begin with both of your reactions to de Blasio's plan. Michael, 18 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,040 Speaker 1: why don't you start? Sure? Well, I think it's a 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: very sensible plan that I think is in the interests 20 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: of all New Yorkers. Rikers Island really has become a 21 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: notorious place. I called it an OpEd I wrote recently, 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: a devil's island. Uh. It's isolated, it's violent, it's it's 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: it's wasteful. And I think the decision to close it, 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: while it's very difficult to accomplishes, a very sensible one, 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: and I think it will benefit all of us. And 26 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: I think the mayor's responding to a report of a 27 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: commission that studied this subject for a while, and that 28 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: that was head but headed by the Chief Judge of 29 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: the New York State, the ex Chief Judge of the 30 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: retired Chief Judge of New York State that recommended this, 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: and um and uh, I think it's a uh. I 32 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: applaud the mayor for endorsing the report of the Litman report. 33 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: All right, Jonathan, what's your reaction. I too was impressed 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: with the report. I think his plan is it correctly 35 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: identifies a lot of the problems with Rikers and Jail's 36 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: generally it's not a perfect plan, but the goals, the 37 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: goals that he lifted to, you know, find different ways 38 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: to reduce the number of people that are going to 39 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: be in there in the first place is very laudable. Um. 40 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that isn't quite mentioned 41 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: in the plan, but I think people need to think 42 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: about is using a cage as a remedy to socialis 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: is not necessarily the best thing. It should be the 44 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: last uh, the last remedy to UH for people who 45 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: commit crimes. If people can be released on their own 46 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: recognizance as the people are, that's good. But there's still 47 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: a very large population there that are subject to these abuses, 48 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: and I think finding more and better ways, some of 49 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: which were outlined in his plan are is a very 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: good step forward. The plan calls for reducing the inmate 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: population down to five thousand. New York City had a 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: record low crime rate last year, So Michael, how will 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: that be done? Well? First of all, I think that 54 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: it's important to point out that most of the people 55 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: on Rikers Island have not been convicted of any crime. 56 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: They're they're being held while awaiting trial. It's also important 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: to note that that way, that's that over two thirds 58 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: of them only spent about thirty days in Rikers Island. 59 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: So the notion of this is we're not talking about 60 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: a prison where people have been convicted and and they're 61 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: being sent to They're being sent to prison for rehabilitation, 62 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: for punishment, for for for safety of the community. So 63 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: that's one thing to talk about. And so really the 64 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: way so and that short period of time that so 65 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: many people spend there may not seem that significant, but 66 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: it's a highly disruptive, it's highly expensive, and we're punishing 67 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: people who haven't been convicted. Um. So it's really important 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: to try to figure out smart ways to reduce that 69 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: that um that population, and it can be done. There 70 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: really are three basic techniques that we've already begun to 71 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: implement and that have led to a significant reduction. At 72 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: its height, there were twenty thousand people that were held 73 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: on Rikers Island about twenty years ago and now we're 74 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: down to about ten thousand, and this plan is to 75 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: reduce it to five thousand. And the way to do 76 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: that is to is to come up with alternatives to bail, 77 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: to reform the bails system, to figure out rather than 78 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: putting a dollar amount on who who goes to prison, 79 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: who goes to I'm sorry, who goes to jail, and 80 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: who goes to Rikers Island to make assessments, realistic assessments 81 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: of really who is going to need to be detained 82 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: rather than just put a number on it. You know 83 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: that the number is usually around two thousand dollars, and 84 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: if a person has that two thousand dollars, they buy 85 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: their way out. That that really doesn't make sense in 86 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: two ways. There are people that can't afford the two 87 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: thousand dollars and then they go to prison. They go 88 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: to jail essentially because they're poor, or there are people 89 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: there's some people for whom we don't really we don't 90 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 1: We don't want them to buy their way out because 91 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: they're either not going to come back to trial or 92 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: because maybe they posed a thread. I've been talking with 93 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: Michael Mushlin, professor at Pace University Law School, and Jonathan Blanks, 94 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: are researcher at the Cato Institute about New York City 95 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: Mayor Build Blasio's plan to shut down Rikers Island Prison 96 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: over a ten year spam and there are a lot 97 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: of ifs involved in this. Jonathan. An independent commission created 98 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: by the City Council that we were talking about before, 99 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: call for state law reforms such as reclassifying criminal offenses 100 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: such as fair evasion, marijuana possession in public you and 101 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: gravity knives as civil offenses bill. The mayor has not 102 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: said has not approved that. Is that something that we 103 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: should be thinking about. Yeah, I mean, if you're going 104 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: to think about changing in jail policy, you also have 105 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,239 Speaker 1: to think of the inputs enough going to be policing policy. 106 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: So when the police are out there giving summons is 107 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: or making arrests for whatever it is, you know, they 108 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: if they continue to use the criminal law to move 109 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: them into jail, that's just going There's nothing uh rockers 110 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: can do about that if they have to take them in. 111 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: So making these civil offenses can reduce the jail population, 112 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: reduce the stress on trying to find places to house 113 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: these people. And Michael, is this really then a plan 114 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: for criminal justice reform as well? Well? I I think 115 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: it is, and I think we could even make it 116 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: more so Actually, um um, when way I think we 117 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: could really make it much more comprehensive is if we 118 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: use if we use the land that is available on 119 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: Rikers Island two to bring back people who are serving 120 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: prison sentences in far flung places in New York State, 121 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: of New York State, New York City people who are 122 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: sentenced to prison are sentenced two hundred miles away from 123 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: New York. Many of those people are parents. There's a 124 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: hundred and five thousand children who have who have a 125 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: parent in prison. Uh. All the research shows that if 126 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: those people were held whole closer to the communities from 127 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: which they come, we would get far more benefit, uh, 128 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: far less recidivism, far more reintegration into the community. And 129 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: so I proposed, and I wrote an OpEd on this 130 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: that was published by the Daily News about a month ago, 131 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: that once we closed Rikers Island for preacher detainees, we 132 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: should seriously consider using that that location, which is remote 133 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: for pre trial detainees, but is ironically not at all 134 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: remote for people who are serving New York City people 135 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: are serving prison sentences, to create to build prisons, to 136 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: use that space for for prisoners. Okay, speaking of prisoners, uh, 137 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: Jonathan in new jails. The there's a question that maybe 138 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: a hurdle, and that's building smaller jails in each of 139 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: the boroughs to replace Rikers. And there are no specific 140 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: details on that in Doblasio's plan. Isn't that bound to 141 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: bring opposition from residents in those boroughs? Most certainly. I 142 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 1: mean would be sort of not in my backyard quintessential 143 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: example as jails. No one wants them in their in 144 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: their neighborhoods. But we really have to think about what 145 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: we're trying to do, what they're trying to do here, 146 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: and that is, you know, trying to make community based 147 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: system for for rehabilitation and to just basically the community 148 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: takes care of its own people. And I think that's 149 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: a good idea. I think it's going to be along um, 150 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: excuse me, it's going to be a long haul trying 151 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: to convince people that is the right thing to do. 152 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: But I think if you can convey the benefits of 153 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: not necessarily throwing people in cages, getting people into rehab 154 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: getting the mental health uh services that they need, that 155 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: communities may may become more open to these uh these 156 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: new buildings. And Michael, this also contains actually one billion 157 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: dollars in capital improvements just to keep the infrastructure at 158 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: Rikers over the next ten years. Is that a lot 159 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: to spend on a prison that's going to be, you know, 160 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: not used any longer. Well, I think two things. One 161 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: is I think that can fit into what I said 162 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: earlier that a lot of money to spend. But Riker's 163 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: Island right now is really a very dangerous place where 164 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: people are really being harmed significantly, not only the people 165 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: that are being held there, but the staff that works there. 166 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: And so it's really imperative that we meet minimal constitutional 167 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: standards wherever we hold people. And so I think that 168 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 1: that spen, that that expenditure is essential, especially since we're 169 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,239 Speaker 1: talking about it at least a decade UH in the transition. 170 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: But if we were to use that money to renovate 171 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: those facilities, we would then have places that we could 172 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: use for for prisoners. The other thing that I would 173 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: say about locating the jails that that are going to 174 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: be UH needed in the in the boroughs outside of 175 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: Riker's Island, I want to second what Jonathan said about 176 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: that and also say we already have people in in 177 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: jails in the local boroughs, so this isn't a new thing. Also, 178 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: we would we love locating them in areas near courts, 179 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: so it's not talking about putting them into into purely 180 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: residential purely residential areas. And also the other thing to 181 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: say is that most of these people are non violent people. 182 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: So Jonathan, what is your opinion about whether the closure 183 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: of rikers within ten years is likely to happen. Um, well, 184 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: a ten years is a long time in politics shift 185 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: and if there's like an increasing crime, or if there's 186 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: you know, a new mayor that comes in it doesn't 187 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: want to do it, obviously, that's UH that that could 188 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: change things directly. I don't know how likely it is, 189 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: but I hope, I hope it happens. And I think 190 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: any any way to try and lower the number of 191 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: people in there is UH an attempt worth making. And Michael, 192 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: about a minute left, what's your opinion about whether this 193 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: can be done in ten years. I think it can 194 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: definitely be done in ten years. I think it's going 195 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: to take the will to do it. I it's really 196 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: so wonderful that we have an elected officials that that's 197 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: running the City of New York who has committed to 198 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: doing this, and the City Council is also on board, 199 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: and I think it's gonna you know, I think if 200 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: we have a commitment to making a more sensible, safer, 201 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: SMARTYR system, one that really benefits the people of New York, 202 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: I think I think we've shown as a city we 203 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: can make these things happen. All right, Well, thank you both. 204 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: That's Michael Mushland, professor at Pace University Law School, and 205 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: Jonathan Blanks, a research at the Cato Institute. That's it 206 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: for this edition of Bloomberg Law. Will be back Monday 207 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 1: at one pm Wall Street Time, thanks to our producer 208 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: David Suckerman and our technical director Chris try Comey. Coming 209 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: up next Bloomberg Markets with Carol Masser and Corey Johnson. So, Corey, 210 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: what's coming up. We've got a really cool guest CEO 211 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: company called service Master. It's a five billion dollar company 212 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: that does a lot of sort of disaster response, home warranty, residential, 213 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: commercial stuff. Really fascinating company. We're gonna talk about CEO 214 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: and just a little bit we'll be listening. That's Bloomberg 215 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: Markets with Carol Masser and Corey Johnson. You've been listening 216 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Law. I'm June Grosso. This is Bloomberg