1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: On the morning of August twenty, twenty twelve, a Detroit 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: house fire killed two men, Bobby Cross and Daryl Simms. 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Citing an argument from the night prior, the Cross family 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: wondered whether Bobby Cross's girlfriend's son, Dwayne Williams, had set 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: the blaze. However, with no evidence of arson, these deaths 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: were ruled accidental until three months later, when someone tied 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: to the family was looking for a way out of 8 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: a jam. They claimed that Dwayne confessed to this arson, 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: sending him away for life. This is Wrongful Conviction. 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this 11 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early 12 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts. 14 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Ben Bullen, the host 15 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: of Stuff they Don't Want You To Know, and your 16 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: host here on Wrongful Conviction for the next few episodes. 17 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: This story takes us to Detroit, Michigan, where we've previously 18 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: covered stories involving an elaborate jailhouse snitch system. We'll link 19 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: some of those in the episode description, but this one 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: is a little different from those scenarios. And the state's 21 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: alleged witness in this case was able to flip two 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: accidental deaths into a double homicide charge. For our guest today, 23 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: Dwayne Williams. Dwayne, thanks for joining us, Man, thank you 24 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: for having me. We also want to welcome the co 25 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: director of the Cooley Innocence Project and Garrett thanks for 26 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: being here absolutely, as well as Maya Menlo from the 27 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: Michigan Appellate Defender's Office. 28 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 3: Thanks. 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: What I think we should start off with first is 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: to have you tell us a little bit about your 31 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: childhood before the series of tragic events. 32 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 4: I'm from a neighborhood in the trait called Brightmore. It's 33 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 4: on the west side of the trait. If you ask 34 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 4: them about it, it has a reputation for like selling 35 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 4: drugs and like the neighborhood being abandoned. I would say 36 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 4: it's considered possibly one of the worst neighborhoods on the 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 4: west Side. 38 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: That's the neighborhood I grew up in. 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 4: I hate that I had to grow up someone like that, 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 4: but it helped to make me the person who I 41 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 4: was now. In my childhood, I lived with my mother 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 4: till I was about seven. 43 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: From seven to thirteen, I. 44 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 4: Ended up having to go live with my grandmother because 45 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 4: of physical abuse. But I think that maybe separation issues 46 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 4: or the situation with my mother my father's not being there, 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 4: I started getting into trouble hanging with the wrong people. Luckily, 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 4: I always had like an interest in music, though. 49 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: What's the kind of music that speaks to you rap? 50 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 4: I think like when I was younger, where I would 51 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 4: have problems, I would just listen to the music. That's 52 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 4: all I did. And around that time I figured out 53 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 4: that I could rap. I used to write poetry before that, 54 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 4: and I just kind of put the poetry to music. 55 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, when I was. 56 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 4: Like fourteen, I got locked up for stealing cars and 57 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 4: I went to a place called Boysville of Michigan. 58 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: Dwayne spent nearly four years there, but when he was released, 59 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: he continued to follow his music dreams through the early nineties. 60 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 4: I always was doing something with music, but music didn't 61 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 4: make money, so I kind of was off and on 62 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 4: with it. I was managed by a company called Starlight 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 4: Entertainment and Limousine. 64 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 3: They had limousine. 65 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 4: So what we would do is if you were a 66 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 4: permoder and you would bring in somebody big in that 67 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 4: we would basically tell you, We'll give you the limousine 68 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 4: to pick this guy up at the airport, take him 69 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 4: to the shows, take him to the hotel, any promotional 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 4: events that you have, but you have to put my 71 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 4: stage with Diablo. 72 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 3: So you have to put Diablo on the show. 73 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 4: My name has to be on all the flyers, all 74 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: the radio advertisers, and when you go to pick that 75 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 4: artist up, I'm in the limit. 76 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: You can believe that. 77 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: That's a pretty brilliant move that gave. 78 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 4: Me the ability to connect with the artist or anybody 79 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 4: else who was with him. Besides getting rich, I did 80 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 4: everything in the music business. I signed all the grand 81 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 4: I toured, and like how Eminem says, you only had 82 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 4: one hot to blow, I actually have had probably a 83 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 4: shot at four major record deals. But at any rate, 84 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 4: the point that I want to make was I had 85 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 4: way more opportunities than most people to be successful in 86 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 4: the music business. But because of my past and another 87 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 4: wrong for convintion, it basically messed all of that up. 88 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: And this isn't the first time we've had a guest 89 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: with multiple wrongful convictions. Dwayne was on the receiving end 90 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: of a false accusation, but with no evidence. He was 91 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: still convicted of a lesser charge in two thousand and two, 92 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: after which his public defender responded to his claims of 93 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: innocence with and this is a quote, Well, innocent people 94 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: go to jail too, end quote. Dwayne perouled in two 95 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: thousand and four, and the address on record belonged to 96 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: his mom's longtime boyfriend, Bobby Cross. 97 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 4: Bobby Cross was like a bully. She was kind of 98 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 4: a big guy. And anybody who knows and they know 99 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 4: this is shoeing. He basically bullied everybody around him. When 100 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 4: they was at a neighbor's house and he started telling 101 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 4: me basically, get so sit excuse my leg gets so 102 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 4: sick in that bitch, sit out of my house. And 103 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 4: he was talking about my mother and neighbors. Now they 104 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 4: want us out of the house. So when they're sending 105 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 4: us out of the house, I'm basically telling Bobby. 106 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: Hey, look, I don't want the problems. I don't want 107 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 3: the trouble. Whatever you tell. 108 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 4: Every time I try to walk away from him, he 109 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 4: would like step in front of me and block me. 110 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: So I told him I didn't want no physical altercation. 111 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 4: He told me that's what he wants. 112 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: It. 113 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 4: So, to make a long story short, I hit him 114 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 4: and I knocked him out, and so it hurts his pride. 115 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 4: So for years and years he never brought it up. 116 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 4: We never had problems about it, but because I know 117 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 4: the type of person that he is, and this is 118 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 4: really embarrassing to him. From that point on, if he 119 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 4: was drinking, it had a good I see there for 120 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 4: four or five minutes and I'm leaving. 121 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: So it appears, as is honestly often the case, that 122 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: alcohol can exacerbate personality traits as well as a quietly 123 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: held grudge, and so Dwayne chose never to live at 124 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: that address while continuing to pursue his music dreams with 125 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: this brilliant limousine strategy. 126 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 4: Eventually we did that a few times with Tea Pain, 127 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 4: and when T Pain's brothers saw it that, he basically 128 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 4: told me that it's amazing. In the midst of this, 129 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 4: I started sending my music all over the country and 130 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 4: clubs started booking me. So now I'm basically nobody, but well, yeah, 131 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 4: he's nobody, but he's connect It's a Tea Pay t 132 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 4: Pay's brother mandyism. So now they're paying me to come 133 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 4: to different places in America to do so, but unfortunately 134 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 4: I had a bad row officer who didn't like me. 135 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 4: If DFC gave me permission to do so, and he 136 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: would have to approve me, and he would never approve them. 137 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 4: So because this took away my source of income. When 138 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 4: me and my wife are married, now, I'm basically like 139 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 4: looking for regular jobs and I'm just trying to make it. 140 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: And that brings us to August twenty twelve. This is 141 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: when Dwayne and his new wife spend the weekend of 142 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: the eighteenth to nineteenth with Dwayne's mother and with Bobby Cross. 143 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: They're following leads on a new place to live in 144 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: that area, and when Sunday came, there was a barbecue 145 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood, as well as some drinking that went 146 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: late into the night. 147 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 4: I had got some stakes for somebody to barbecue. At 148 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 4: some point, somebody told me that Bob Cross wanted to 149 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 4: talk to me, so I went across the street. He 150 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 4: told me that I cooked steaks and I didn't offer one. 151 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 4: I told him that you can have all of them. 152 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 4: He told me that he didn't like steaks. So basically, 153 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 4: there's nothing else to say. 154 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: It appears this was just the begetting of some unnecessary drama. 155 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: So the night continued on, as did the drinking, all 156 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: the way until somewhere after two am. 157 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 4: In the midst of this, an argument occurs between my wife, 158 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 4: Bobby Cross's daughter, and Bobby Cross. This disagreement and I'm 159 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 4: not even in it, but it got turned around to 160 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 4: look like something else. So from two in the morning 161 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 4: to whatever time in the morning when my mother left, 162 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 4: my mother and Bobby Cross basically they're arguing from room 163 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 4: to room. The last thing my mother said to me 164 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 4: was I'm leaving it before he kills everybody in the 165 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 4: house and they drinking. 166 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: I ain't paid no attention to that. I went you 167 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: was the bathroom. 168 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 4: When I came out of the bathroom, I saw Bobby 169 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 4: Cross standing there with a shotgun. He never said anything 170 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 4: to me, never threatened me, nothing happened, but nah, he 171 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 4: has a good So I left. 172 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: And that was four in the morning. 173 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: So Dwayne left to find somewhere else to stay for 174 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: the night. Bobby was sleeping it off. Around six in 175 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: the morning, first responders were dispatched to a fire at 176 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: Bobby Cross's house, and it's important to mention that a 177 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: man named Darryl Simms stayed on the couch. This was 178 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: determined to have been the origin point of the fire. 179 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 5: Mister Simms, he did have disabilities, he was known to 180 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 5: smoke on the couch. Initially, the fire was classified as undetermined, 181 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 5: which means that there was no conclusion that the fire 182 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 5: was intentionally set. 183 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 4: Well, because the whole situation the night before that I 184 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 4: just told you about. 185 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 3: Remember now, me and mister Cross, we're not. 186 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 4: Arguing, but because of that situation, I guess the family 187 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 4: members had animosity. Jackie crossed his daughter. He ended up 188 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 4: being one of the main people accusing me of. 189 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: Star Thankfully, the investigators followed the facts at the scene 190 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: and therefore the deaths were ruled accidental. This did not 191 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: become a homicide investigation until three months later. A man 192 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: named Gary Jennings, the boyfriend of one of Bobby Cross's relatives, 193 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: Shannon Tyler. Gary Jennings is arrested for driving without a license, 194 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: cannabis possession, and copying audio video recordings for. 195 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 5: Gates, and that last one was a felony charge. He 196 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 5: had previously been convicted of the same offense and was 197 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 5: on probation at the time. Gary Jennings said to police, 198 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 5: and he testified at trial that the impetus for him 199 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 5: making contact with Dwayne was that another individual, Deshaun Seabrooks, 200 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 5: told Gary Jennings that Dwayne had made a big mistake. 201 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 5: He used different words, but Gary said that made me 202 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 5: contact Dwayne, and Dwayne confessed to me. 203 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: So Gary Jennings claimed that Dwayne said that he lit 204 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: the blaze after this argument over rent money, which sounds 205 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: like the ky narrative that might arise when perhaps an 206 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: investigator looks into the addressed which Dwayne was paroled, but 207 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: not where he actually lived. By the way, this statement 208 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: was unrecorded. 209 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 6: It's always a red flag when there is a so 210 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 6: called statement or confession that's not recorded, prime opportunity to 211 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 6: just make something up. And the fact that mister Jennings 212 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 6: was currently in jail facing some pretty serious charges while 213 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 6: he was already on probation and he just magically has 214 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 6: all of this information about a quote unquote crime that 215 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 6: had occurred, and that mister Williams was involved. All of 216 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 6: those things also very problematic. 217 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: And then from what we understand as well, I believe 218 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,239 Speaker 1: his felony charge is dismissed. 219 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, he got a really sweet deal out of this. 220 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 4: Gary Tannings, So he's not a snatch, he's a liar 221 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: because I never talked to him about anything. 222 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: It was anything for him to talk about. 223 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 4: But after Gary Jennings popped up and talks to the 224 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 4: correct police officers, it comes up with a rent story. 225 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 4: Then months later the family members come up with a 226 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 4: rent story in a motive tube. So in the beginning 227 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 4: this didn't exist. 228 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: Despite no previous mention of this rent disagreement from the 229 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: Cross family, their statements and eventual testimony become aligned with 230 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: Gary Jennings statement. 231 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 5: I think the statement itself is suspect, but what came 232 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 5: after or what didn't come after, is arguably even more concerning, 233 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 5: because a member of the public can go to the 234 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 5: police and say whatever they want to, but it's on 235 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 5: the police and other law enforcement prosecutors and the like 236 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 5: to make sure that the statement is credible if they 237 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 5: intend to use it, and in fact, police talk with 238 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 5: people specifically. I have deshaun Sebrooks, who discredited mister Jennings's statement, 239 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 5: and unfortunately that statement was never disclosed to Dwayne or 240 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 5: to his attorney. So everything that police had wade in 241 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 5: favor of discrediting mister Jennings, but instead they decided to 242 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,719 Speaker 5: credit him and cover up evidence that he was incredible 243 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 5: and proceived with trial. 244 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: But first they had to present the dubious statement to 245 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: the medical examiner to have her reconsider the cause of 246 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: these two deaths. 247 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 5: The deaths were initially deemed accidents. The medical examiner changed 248 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 5: the determination to homicide, but we actually went back and 249 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 5: spoke with the medical examiner who told us that if 250 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 5: she were evaluating the case now, the correct determination, if 251 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 5: there was going to be one for manner of death, 252 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 5: should have been undetermined. 253 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: But that determination was the last stop gap between Dwayne 254 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: and charges for arson and two counts of felony murder. 255 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 4: I was at my assist in law's house and I'm 256 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 4: in the basement asleep. All of a sudden I heard 257 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 4: somebody called it by name, and they ended up coming down. 258 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 4: They had goods out ay Keffy, and I remember I 259 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 4: kept asking, what are you arresting me for? They never 260 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 4: taught me of what was going on, but they brought 261 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 4: me outside, took me to the station, and I remember 262 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 4: getting there and we got in the room. 263 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 3: They started talking about the fire. 264 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 4: I guess I was kind of stocked and a lot 265 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 4: of the days he's saying to me, it doesn't make sense. 266 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 4: You know you watched TV shows. The police say, well, 267 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 4: we already know the answer to the question. He asked 268 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 4: me questions like had me and missus Cross ever had 269 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 4: disputes about money? When no, I never got any money 270 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 4: from him. He never got any money from me. But 271 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 4: I didn't realize that he was asking this question because 272 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 4: of the lies that Jenny told. 273 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: For some reason, the prosecution had trouble locating Gary Jennings 274 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: for trial as scheduled, so it was postponed until August 275 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: twenty eighth, twenty thirteen. What he testified about Deshaun Sebrooks 276 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: telling him about Dwayne, who then allegedly confessed to setting 277 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: the house on fire over a disagreement about rent, as 278 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: well as how Gary Jennings' girlfriend Shannon Tyler had told 279 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: him about the fire only after this alleged confession. Strangely, 280 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: neither Tyler nor Seabrooks participated, but Bobby Cross's daughter Jackie did. 281 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 4: Then miss Cross gets understand and now she has a 282 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 4: story about two weeks where for argument's over rent, which 283 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 4: is what Jenny said. It made it look like me 284 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 4: and her father were having continue as problems, and none 285 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 4: of those things that she testified to whoever happened, and 286 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 4: my lawyer didn't do any investigation, wouldn't talk to anybody. 287 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: And had he spoken to Deshaun Seabrooks or Miss Tyler, 288 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: perhaps he would have been able to impeach the state's witnesses. 289 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: But most importantly, the defense neglected to even consult with 290 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: a fire expert. 291 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 5: One thing that stood out to me immediately was that 292 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 5: only one expert testified, and that expert was the government's expert, 293 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 5: Captain McNulty, who's now retired, who arrived at the scene 294 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 5: hours after the fire, testified on behalf of the prosecution, 295 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 5: but no defense expert testified to poke holes in what 296 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 5: turned out to be a really faulty analysis. 297 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: McNulty testified that no smoky materials were found near the couch, 298 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: but oddly no photographic evidence was shared with the defense 299 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: nor offered to the jury to corroborate that claim. McNulty 300 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: also claimed that an open flame like a cigarette lighter, 301 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: was a more likely cause of the blaze, and that 302 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: it's extremely hard to get a couch to burn with 303 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: a cigarette. This all begs the question, are all couches 304 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: the same? Are all materials as flammable as others? Additionally, 305 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: nothing was offered to rule out a smoldering cigarette or 306 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: any other possible accidental cause. 307 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 5: I would say in most arson cases the defense should 308 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 5: at least consult an expert. But here we have two 309 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 5: sets of problems, and you've pointed out some of them. 310 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 5: We have problems with the experts testimony, even knowing what 311 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 5: the defense and the prosecution knew at the time of trial, 312 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 5: what was presented and unchallenged. And then we have things 313 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 5: that we discovered in our investigation later on that blew 314 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 5: this wide open. 315 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: And we'll get to all that they hid from the 316 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: defense and in just a bit. But still trial counsel 317 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: failed to use what was available to him to discredit 318 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: the state's case, not only lay witnesses but also their expert. 319 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: Even the jury was curious enough to ask for the 320 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: transcript of McNulty's testimony and other documents as they were 321 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: deadlocked for some time. But ultimately Dwayne was convicted on 322 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: one count of oursen, one count second degree murder, and 323 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: one count felony murder, resulting in a life sentence without 324 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: the possibility of parole. 325 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 4: At that moment, cross family members, we're making faces at 326 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 4: me like a little kid is like you stick your 327 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 4: tongue out like that. They kept doing stuff like that 328 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 4: to me. And what really bothered me about that word 329 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 4: that you just said in this court room and got my. 330 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: Whole life took for me. And now you back there 331 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 3: doing that. You think this is the game. 332 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 4: I think that until you're in a real serious situation. 333 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 4: Maybe people think the appeal process works. There's all these 334 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 4: mechanisms in the system that look like they work until 335 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: you the. 336 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 3: Guy stuck in the system trying to use them. 337 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 4: As time goes on and you watch people who you 338 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 4: know in they file briefs and you know that they 339 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 4: should have won and they got shot down, it's hard 340 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 4: to keep hoping. So going through the process, I was 341 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 4: disappointed things were getting shot down, and at some point 342 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 4: I decided that I can comprehend things, I can read well. 343 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 4: I decided I better do my own thing can work, 344 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 4: because at least if I stay in prison, it's my fault. 345 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 4: I can live with that. 346 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: After Dwayne's direct appeal, as that died up through the 347 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: State Supreme Court as well as on federal habeas. He 348 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: began writing to anyone who might be able to help, 349 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: which included the newly formed Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit. 350 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: This is how an guaranted the Kooley Innocence Project got involved. 351 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 6: The Cooley Innocence Project has a partnership with the Wayne 352 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 6: County Conviction Integrity and Cooley is primarily a DNA and 353 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 6: forensic clinic. And in twenty twenty his case was referred 354 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 6: to our office here at Cooley. A very sharp student 355 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 6: came across Dwayne's file and brought it to our attention 356 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 6: and said, something is very wrong with this man's conviction. 357 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 6: And the student and the staff attorney went to visit 358 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 6: Dwayne and introduced themselves. 359 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: And then Dwayne's outreach also scored him help with the 360 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: Michigan Appellate Defender's office. In twenty twenty one, I. 361 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 5: Ended up on the case kind of through dumb luck. 362 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 5: Dwayne had filed a request for and on post judgment 363 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 5: motions like this one. It's very rare at that stage 364 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 5: of the proceedings to get counsel appointed, but it happened 365 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 5: that way, and it was exciting to me to work 366 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 5: on a case with actual innocence issues, and by the 367 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 5: time I came on the scene, he had already done 368 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 5: so much research, so much writing, so much communication with Cooley, 369 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 5: so he had set up the case really nicely. Shortly 370 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 5: after we were appointed, we started peppering different law enforcement 371 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 5: agencies with requests for records, documents, police reports, photos, and 372 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 5: there are two big things that came out of our 373 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 5: first and most important for your request. One was a 374 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 5: version of the fire investigator's report that had not previously 375 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 5: been disclosed to the defense. At the time of trial. 376 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 5: Dwayne's trial council had a version of the fire investigator 377 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 5: report that had most all of the information in it, 378 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 5: but one very important fact was missing from that report, 379 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 5: and when you look at the two side by side, 380 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 5: it almost looks as if a piece of the report 381 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 5: has been cut out, not exactly like white out, but 382 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 5: almost like xcized from the version that we ultimately obtained, 383 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 5: and that line stated that a Zippo style lighter was 384 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 5: found in the debris near the area of origin, which 385 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 5: was near a couch that had been consumed by the fire, 386 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 5: but that was where the fire investigator thought the fire 387 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 5: had originated. 388 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: Which is obviously a Brady violation. It's also interesting that 389 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: the same fire investigator even eschewed a smoldering cigarette as 390 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: a less likely option to a lighter like the one 391 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: removed from that report. 392 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 5: So we discovered that there was this additional version of 393 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 5: the report. We also discovered that there were fifty eight 394 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 5: photos that had never been given to the defense, and 395 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 5: in those photos you could see the Zippo style lighter 396 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 5: that was indeed at the area of origin. So this 397 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 5: mattered because the defense theory at trial and our theory 398 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 5: now is that the fire was caused by careless smoking. 399 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 5: It was an accident. There were people in the house 400 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 5: who were known to smoke in the house, and one 401 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 5: of the people who sadly died was known to smoke 402 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 5: on the couch that was the area of origin. When 403 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 5: the fire investigator tells the jury that there are no 404 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 5: smoking materials at the scene, that really discredits the defense theory. 405 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 5: But in fact, there was a smoking material. A lighter 406 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 5: is a smoking material, and so that was something that 407 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 5: was major and that, as I said before, really blew 408 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 5: the case wide open for. 409 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: A lot of us listening tonight. The idea of purposely 410 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: excising something that pivotal feels illegal, if not highly unethical. 411 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 5: It is illegal and unethical. I do not know who 412 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 5: did it, and I do not know if it was 413 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 5: done purposefully. I have to be totally honest with you. 414 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 5: I think we can all imagine what may or may 415 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 5: not have happened. But at this point, all I can 416 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 5: tell you is that it's in one version and it's 417 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 5: not in another, and both of those reports, what I 418 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 5: call the original and then the redacted or excised version, 419 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 5: we're both in the prosecutor's possession at the time of trial. 420 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: This also leads naturally to another question. If there is 421 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: this zippo lighter in the photograph, what happened to the 422 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: physical object. 423 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 5: Well, we know that the prosecution could not locate it 424 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 5: during the course of our investigation years after trial, and 425 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 5: there's no record of it ever having been collected and 426 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 5: kept or tested or anything that should have happened. Our 427 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 5: expert Mark Fennell talked with us about the importance of 428 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 5: in a case like this, collecting any smoking materials, any 429 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 5: implements that could have been used to start a fire, 430 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 5: and then testing them to determine whether they actually had 431 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 5: the capability of starting the fire. So, unfortunately that was 432 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 5: not done. No one has come forward with the lighter, 433 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 5: not the Detroit Police Department, not the Wayne County Prosecutor's office. 434 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 5: So to our knowledge, their lighter does not exist, and 435 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 5: it was never collected and certainly was not tested. 436 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 3: Okay. 437 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: And Mark Fennell also called into question and some of 438 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: the earlier statements by Captain McNulty, especially the idea of 439 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: flammability of couches and cigarettes, and something I thought a 440 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: lot of people would have already clocked. Not all couches 441 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: are made of the same material. I mean, some stuff 442 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: is more flammable than other stuff, right. 443 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 5: That's absolutely right. That's something that unfortunately the jury did 444 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 5: not hear at the original trial, and I wish they 445 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 5: had because Mark Fennell even provided us with a video 446 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 5: that to this day lives rent free in my mind, 447 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 5: because it shows just how quickly many of the couches 448 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 5: that we may have in our homes could combust and 449 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 5: could start an absolutely disastrous fire. So it's true that 450 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 5: it's difficult to light a leather couch on fire, but 451 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 5: the evidence that we have suggests that the couch that 452 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 5: was consumed in the fire here was not leather. It 453 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 5: was a more polyester type of couch. That is more 454 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 5: easy to light on fire. For Captain McNulty to testify 455 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 5: that it's incredibly difficult to get a couch to burn 456 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 5: with a cigarette. I can't say whether he was intentionally 457 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 5: misleading the jury. I hope he wasn't, But in fact, 458 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 5: we know that the jury did not get a complete 459 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 5: and full picture of what went on in this fire 460 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 5: or what could happen in general when you hold a 461 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 5: cigarette to a couch or you drop, for example, a 462 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 5: cigarette in between couch cushions. That seems like a very 463 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 5: likely story here that mister Simms, he did have disabilities, 464 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 5: He was known to smoke on the couch that was 465 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 5: eventually the origin of the fire. It is possible that 466 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 5: he fell asleep and dropped a cigarette. So I just 467 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 5: I can tell you that, even if it wasn't intentional, 468 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 5: Captain McNulty definitely misled the jury into believing that the 469 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 5: couch here could not have caught on fire but for 470 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 5: an intentionally set fire. 471 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 3: That's the lawyer answer. 472 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 7: My answer, Yes, he knew what he was doing and 473 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 7: he did it all part. 474 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: It's difficult to maintain faith in this investigation and these people, 475 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: especially when we see a Brady violation of this magnitude, I'm, 476 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: of course, speaking about what appears to be an altered 477 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: version of the original fire investigation report. And it becomes 478 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: even more difficult to maintain faith when you consider DeShawn Seabrooks. 479 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 5: Gary Jennings said to police and testified at trial that 480 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 5: I got information from Deshaun and that made me contact Wayne. 481 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 5: What the defense was never told at the time of trial, 482 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 5: and what we didn't get our hands on until years 483 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 5: of working on the case myself, was a statement by 484 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 5: Deshaun Seabrooks. The Waynkenny prosecutor sent an investigator to speak 485 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 5: with DeShawn Seabrooks. Deshaun Seabrooks told the prosecutors investigator that 486 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 5: he did not know Gary Jennings and he did not 487 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 5: know about any fire supposedly involving Dwayne until law enforcement 488 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 5: told him about that. So not only hadn't they talked 489 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 5: about the fire, but that he didn't even know Gary. 490 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 1: But wait, there's war. 491 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 5: Yes, there was another witness who the prosecution interviewed and 492 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 5: whose statement was not turned over to the defense, and 493 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 5: his name was Ron Rogers. Now, Ron Rogers' involvement in 494 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 5: all of this is a little bit more attenuated, but 495 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 5: we can sum it up by saying that had mister 496 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 5: Rogers statement been turned over to the defense, the defense 497 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 5: could have chosen to either call him as a witness 498 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 5: or call the prosecution's investigator as a witness to discredit 499 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 5: some of the other lay witnesses. For example, Jackie Cross 500 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 5: told police that they got some of their information from 501 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 5: Ron Rodgers, but when Ron Rogers talked to the prosecutor's investigator, 502 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 5: mister Rogers said that he didn't know anything about the fire. 503 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 5: And so again it's a bit attenuated. But you have 504 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 5: people coming to court and testifying to things that they 505 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 5: say are corroborated or known by other people, and then 506 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 5: when the prosecution goes and talks with those other people, 507 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 5: they don't know anything. And unfortunately, the jury never heard that, 508 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 5: and the defense didn't even know about those statements or 509 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 5: those interviews that the prosecution's investigator did. And we submitted 510 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 5: a couple of different documents applications to the Conviction Integrity 511 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 5: Unit summarizing all the relevant evidence. Then they did additional investigation. 512 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 5: We did have Denver Butler, who was an investigator, an 513 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 5: independent person who was able to do additional interviews and 514 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 5: track down witnesses. So there was a lot of movement 515 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 5: from a lot of different parties on this case. But 516 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 5: ultimately the conviction Integrity Unit reviewed everything and recommended that 517 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 5: Dwayne be granted relief. That recommendation then goes to the 518 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 5: pad prosecutor in Wayne County, Kim Worthy, and she signed 519 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 5: off and agreed that yes, the conviction here was wrongful 520 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 5: and should not stand. 521 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: So now all they needed was a court date to 522 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: file a joint motion to vacate convictions and sentences, which 523 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: happens on June seventeenth, twenty twenty four, over a decade 524 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: after Dwayne's arrest to. 525 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 4: Here to just say that my sins was vacate and 526 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: the know that they finally went away after all that time, 527 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 4: he was really gone. 528 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 3: That was something. 529 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 4: Walking out the prison light five o'clock that afternoon, walking 530 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 4: through the metal detectors going out of the prison, and 531 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 4: I remember like how some of the seels were talking 532 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 4: to me, and I remember thinking, well, man, why didn't 533 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 4: they talk to me like that before? But just walking 534 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 4: out that gate and getting in, I was band and 535 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 4: coming to Detroit, knowing that I was coming back to Detroit, 536 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 4: I don't know how to describe it really. 537 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: Now the Dwayne's out, He's been working with two nonprofits, 538 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: one called Firefly Advocates, which works toward criminal legal system 539 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: reform as well as supporting reintegration for system impact of folks, 540 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: and the second comes to us from another Michigan based 541 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: exogneri Ken Nixon. His group is called the Organization of 542 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: Exogneries Will Length. Thus in the episode of description. Outside 543 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: of that, Dwayne is back out there making music, meeting 544 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: other artists, and we'll link ways for you to find him. 545 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 4: Uh yeah, you gotta like YouTube dio d I a 546 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 4: b l O white mess and I just posted on 547 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 4: my Facebook for the first time since I've been out. 548 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 4: I started recording. So it's like a little snippet or something. 549 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 4: Rest It's like they didn't killed. I was probably you 550 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 4: had a station through a cloud for the lives. Hey, 551 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 4: get the yard, I was robbing. Even call me with 552 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 4: a knife. I'm mother the police and your muss I 553 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 4: got thirty red. That's a lifetime. I'm innocent. Plus I 554 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,719 Speaker 4: could read plus get the little library reading. K's out 555 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 4: the Kate, tell them here, stay the fuck up my face. 556 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 4: Get respected on the yard because I'm fighting it straight. 557 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 4: The hunt they seem to getting first, I'm getting closer, 558 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 4: but closer. Zum mee to turn the weeks man, the 559 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 4: shit gonna be yo. 560 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 3: Touchdown with the pics. You might see me your round high. Yes, 561 00:30:58,840 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 3: I'm easy to miss. 562 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 4: Out of town house. 563 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 3: We probably meet you still, Holly. 564 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 4: Who is a'm good and never hood in this dating 565 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 4: the rapper And that was let them do what I 566 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 4: call him the mouth hit the make a couple of times, 567 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 4: put a. 568 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: Couple hounded out for self. 569 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 4: It's kind of interested what I'm talking about, the wrong 570 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 4: for QB. So I just did that this born. 571 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: We wish ed Wayne all the luck in the world. 572 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: And with that we come to the last segment of 573 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: the show, where first I'd like to thank you all 574 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: for joining us today. Then I'll open the space for 575 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: our guests to share and enclosing thoughts they might have. 576 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: Why don't we go in alphabetical order, so we'll start 577 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: with Ann, then Maya, and last but not least, we 578 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: leave it to Dwayne. 579 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 6: Dwayne's case is a case that never should have happened, 580 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 6: A crime wasn't committed. I think that society has this 581 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,719 Speaker 6: false sense that it's a justice system. Look at all 582 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 6: the people that were impacted by Dwayne's case, including Dwayne, 583 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 6: his family, society, and it takes an absurd amount of time. 584 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 6: I always tell people it's like unringing a bell. It's 585 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 6: very easy in theory to put someone into this situation, 586 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 6: but it takes a miracle to get someone out of 587 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 6: this situation. Without the state of Pelot Defender Office and 588 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 6: with our collaboration with the Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit, 589 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 6: in having conviction integrity units and the determination and the 590 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 6: persistence of the director Beal Newman, I'm not sure that 591 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 6: we would be having this discussion right now. And Dwayne's story, 592 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 6: sadly is not unique. If people knew that this was 593 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 6: happening in their own communities and how it impacts everybody 594 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 6: from an emotional standpoint, from a financial standpoint. That's the 595 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 6: big thing that I push all the time is the 596 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 6: education of wrongful convictions. 597 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 5: I would also note that at the time of Dwayne's trial, 598 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 5: he was represented by appointed council and I happen to 599 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 5: know the attorney who represented him, and he does a 600 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 5: lot of really great work. So this is not to 601 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 5: slander him or to suggest that he's a bad lawyer. 602 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 5: But I will say that the system, particularly at the 603 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 5: time Duane was facing trial in twenty twelve and twenty thirteen, 604 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 5: the provision of counsel to indigent people, people who are 605 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 5: facing charges as serious as the ones Duane was facing, 606 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 5: was not good at all, and there have been lots 607 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 5: of improvements in Michigan since then, but I do know 608 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 5: that in other states there are similar problems that still 609 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 5: occur where people are not provided a lawyer who has 610 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 5: the capacity and time to assist them properly, who has 611 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 5: the funding requisite to hire an investigator or an expert, 612 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 5: both of which in my view, should have been done 613 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 5: in this case. So I would just point out that 614 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 5: there are systemic issues that led to some of the 615 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 5: problems here, and as I mentioned, if we were appointed 616 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 5: by really a fluke, and so the fact that Dwayne 617 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 5: got counsel on appeal or on a secondary appeal was 618 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 5: also pretty unusual, and it's still unusual today. So I 619 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 5: would just say that I do think there are lots 620 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 5: and lots of people who are inside prison, serving time 621 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 5: sometimes life sentences for crimes they did not commit, but 622 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 5: they don't have lawyers to assist them. 623 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 3: Just really did take a team. 624 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 4: And that's one of the things that God's Christy said 625 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 4: to me before I left. I don't have what you had, 626 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 4: but God put all of these things in place and 627 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 4: all of these people in place to help me. And 628 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 4: I really realized now how hard it is and how 629 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 4: blessed I really am. So I'm going to use the 630 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 4: words a kind Nixon, the president of the Organization of 631 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 4: Exigner rees Ken always se is it starts with voting. 632 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 4: A prosecutor is a powerful position and they answer to 633 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 4: the people in all your choices. When you vote, you 634 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 4: need to really be careful and pay attention. It's important 635 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 4: in education learning this system. I think they sad teachers. 636 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 4: It's mid Love's favorite four fifth sixth amen in school. 637 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: Bestally in areas where you might be more likely to 638 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 4: have legal problems, because when you don't know anything, anything 639 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 4: can happen to you. 640 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 641 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 2: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one 642 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 2: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for 643 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our 644 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink as well as 645 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliber. 646 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time 647 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 648 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 2: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and 649 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram 650 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 2: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is the production of 651 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 2: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. 652 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: We've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in 653 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 2: this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by 654 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: the individuals featured in this show are their own and 655 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 2: do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.