Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. There's been plenty of times
Speaker 1: I've wanted to make a scene, say something, get mad,
Speaker 1: get loud, and I just don't because I am very
Speaker 1: aware of the repercussions of it. But I'd like to
Speaker 1: think that every time a woman has the courage to
Speaker 1: make a scene, less women have to. The last time
Speaker 1: Golden Globe nominated actress Constance Wu made a scene, it
Speaker 1: was twenty eighteen. She took to Twitter to react to
Speaker 1: her sitcom Fresh Off the Boat, being renewed. She first
Speaker 1: cryptically tweeted, so upset right now that I'm literally crying
Speaker 1: of as. Then the Internet, the media, and even some
Speaker 1: of her cast members came for her.
Speaker 2: So it seemed really insensitive of her to go out
Speaker 2: there and do that.
Speaker 1: In short, Constance blew up her career, the career she
Speaker 1: had tireusly worked for and sacrificed for fifteen years. It
Speaker 1: all disappeared, and then she disappeared. Well that is until
Speaker 1: one year ago when she re emerged with a new
Speaker 1: memoir called Making a Scene. In it, she reveals the
Speaker 1: complicated moments that we didn't see in public, the moments
Speaker 1: that led to her eventual breakdown. She revisits some of
Speaker 1: those painful and intimate chapters of her life, the ones
Speaker 1: that reshaped her world. In today's episode.
Speaker 2: Those were the scenes that made the girl. Was the
Speaker 2: sexual harassment, the intimidation, the threats, the paranoia, all that.
Speaker 1: Today, nearly a year after re emerging back into public life,
Speaker 1: Constance has a new perspective.
Speaker 2: You know, I'd be lying if I said that there
Speaker 2: weren't times where it hurts, where it adds to a
Speaker 2: lot of confusion. But I think there's also a way
Speaker 2: to look at it as an opportunity.
Speaker 1: And she also gives us a glimpse into her world
Speaker 1: and her growing family with an announcement I was not expecting.
Speaker 2: Oh, I just breaking news. Nobody knew I had a son.
Speaker 1: I just said that on here today. A reminder that
Speaker 1: sometimes your biggest challenges are the things that will change
Speaker 1: you the most, and that oftentimes when we feel like
Speaker 1: we are criticizing somebody, it should really be an invitation
Speaker 1: to get curious instead making a scene. I was so
Speaker 1: moved constance your stories. I feel like I wanted to
Speaker 1: hold it close to my chest for some reason. It's
Speaker 1: like close to my heart. I can imagine you felt
Speaker 1: that way when writing it. But at the beginning you write,
Speaker 1: I stop thinking about the girl a scene and started
Speaker 1: thinking about the scenes that made the girl. I was hooked.
Speaker 1: Then I had chills. I love a sort of like
Speaker 1: a pun. Why making a scene? How did you come
Speaker 1: up with the title.
Speaker 2: It kind of just happened organically, which as I was
Speaker 2: writing the essays in that book, I feel like the
Speaker 2: essays crystallize. The second the title crystallized it it would all.
Speaker 2: That's when I knew something was working. And I noticed
Speaker 2: a theme within most of these essays where it was
Speaker 2: about women being perceived as making a scene because they
Speaker 2: or myself had repressed our voices for so long that
Speaker 2: it sort of bubbles up, you know, because it's going
Speaker 2: to go somewhere, whether it's like you get a hernia
Speaker 2: or you like have a moment on Twitter, which is
Speaker 2: what I had. And I was writing one essay in
Speaker 2: that that was about being raped and about how the
Speaker 2: movie idea of rape is very violent when really it's
Speaker 2: just someone having sex with you without your consent. And
Speaker 2: how my version what happened to me is I just
Speaker 2: said I am not ready to have sex with you.
Speaker 2: I did not consent. I said no, and then he
Speaker 2: just didn't listen. And I didn't physically fight back because well,
Speaker 2: I mean, A, he's twice my size, were in his apartment.
Speaker 2: You know, if I fight back, I'm going to get
Speaker 2: beat up. And B I didn't want to make a scene.
Speaker 2: And how that sort of that idea of what it
Speaker 2: means to make a scene, where it comes from how
Speaker 2: we judge women based on that, instead of thinking of
Speaker 2: everything that led her up to those choices. It's dehumanizing
Speaker 2: to say this woman is making a scene instead of
Speaker 2: being like, oh, something's happening here, that's out of character,
Speaker 2: that's out of whack. That must mean something's going on.
Speaker 2: Let me investigate the person a little bit more rather
Speaker 2: than immediately running to judgment. So it was just making
Speaker 2: a scene. The idea of that was a recurring thing
Speaker 2: and every essay that I wrote, and they're all very
Speaker 2: personal essays, and so the title was just kind of
Speaker 2: obvious to me.
Speaker 1: I think personal is the word I thought of too,
Speaker 1: particularly the essay that you just spoke about, as well
Speaker 1: as the one about your producer m which we'll talk
Speaker 1: about a little bit more further. But I felt like
Speaker 1: you could have left out a lot of details that
Speaker 1: you intentionally put in that made it so much more
Speaker 1: nuanced and complex. The producer that I work with for
Speaker 1: the show called me and we both read your book,
Speaker 1: and she was like, I feel like every woman in
Speaker 1: the world has had a moment that feels something like this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's easier sometimes to just say nothing than to
Speaker 1: quote unquote make a scene.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And also it's in many ways to say nothing,
Speaker 2: especially if you've gotten good at playing the game awarded
Speaker 2: for it. So it's kind of like, but at what cost,
Speaker 2: which is why I think the cost is the perpetuation
Speaker 2: of repression and misogyny and the patriarchy.
Speaker 1: You lose yourself. I felt every time I don't say something,
Speaker 1: I lose a piece of my soul a little bit.
Speaker 2: I know that sounds yeah, I feel like I lose
Speaker 2: a piece of my soul.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: To not do that, I want to be careful to
Speaker 2: not judge women who, for example, do not want to
Speaker 2: talk about these things, because I always think of my sister,
Speaker 2: who I wrote this about in this book, how she's
Speaker 2: an introvert and she's quieter, and there is a world
Speaker 2: in which somebody might judge her for not being an activist,
Speaker 2: for not speaking up. But really we shouldn't blame her.
Speaker 2: We should blame the system that puts her in that situation.
Speaker 2: But we're so quick, even within progressive feminist groups, to
Speaker 2: lay the blame on the woman. So I want to
Speaker 2: be careful that. I was, like, you know what, I
Speaker 2: am a person who is uniquely extroverted and doesn't give
Speaker 2: a fuck enough to talk about these things at the
Speaker 2: risk of my reputation or my career. I'm actually genuinely
Speaker 2: okay with that, when I know most people a lot
Speaker 2: of people aren't. So if I actually am okay with it,
Speaker 2: then why don't I do that for people like my daughter,
Speaker 2: my little sister, who that's not their natural voice. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a fine line, because at what point are you
Speaker 2: a pushover or what point are you just a person
Speaker 2: who's just a little bit more introverted and sensitive and
Speaker 2: less aggressive. And how do we make sure that we
Speaker 2: don't judge people like that too?
Speaker 1: That's well said. I think everyone has to make that
Speaker 1: choice for themselves. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean that's what true feminism is. It isn't the
Speaker 2: stereotype Oh I'm pretty, my bra and I have armbit hair.
Speaker 2: It's making the choice for yourself about what you want
Speaker 2: to be, who you want to be, and being allowed
Speaker 2: to be that. It's just being a fully formed human being.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that not everybody knows about your time
Speaker 1: in New York, how much you hustled, what you sacrificed
Speaker 1: when you were auditioning. Mm hmm. I loved reading about
Speaker 1: your time waitressing. You even did something that I think
Speaker 1: a lot of actors reading this or listening to the
Speaker 1: podcast will appreciate. You would put yourself on tape and
Speaker 1: submit to things even if you weren't called for that casting.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: I was really like on it. I was consumed with
Speaker 2: and I've always been consumed with being an actor. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was hustling. Like if I would beg my agent
Speaker 2: or manager please let them give me an audition, and
Speaker 2: if they didn't, I'd be like, well, do you have
Speaker 2: an other clients who are auditioning? Give me the sides,
Speaker 2: which is the script that you use for the audition.
Speaker 2: I'll put myself on tape send it to them, and
Speaker 2: then if they didn't have the sides. There was even
Speaker 2: a time where they're like, we don't have the sides.
Speaker 2: I made it up, your kids. I wrote my own
Speaker 2: fucking script. Yeah, and I said, I'm like, this is
Speaker 2: what I think the character would do. Let me just
Speaker 2: send you a sample of what I did. I didn't
Speaker 2: get it, but like, it's so funny. I talked to
Speaker 2: young actors and they're like, ooh, but isn't that like
Speaker 2: embarrassing or bad? And I'm like, I could see why
Speaker 2: somebody might shame you for that. Fuck them, man, like
Speaker 2: do it? What's the worst that could happen? No, Okay,
Speaker 2: they tried.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I thought was interesting, Is you even did
Speaker 1: it for hustlers?
Speaker 2: I did do it for hustlers?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you had quote unquote made it already.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was after crazy ritations. I did it for hustle.
Speaker 2: I put myself on tape.
Speaker 1: There's this word in Yiddish hutzpa, like set you as
Speaker 1: such hutzpah. It's amazing I did, but I.
Speaker 2: Also it's hut spot in terms of like doing it,
Speaker 2: but also I was in like my friend's ho house
Speaker 2: and we did. So it's like I didn't have to.
Speaker 2: Like it's not like huts but like skydiving huts, but
Speaker 2: time of like it's just sort of like might argue.
Speaker 1: Yours was scarier than something else. Yeah, like emotional, Yeah, scary.
Speaker 2: But I did. Yeah, I did sent in my own,
Speaker 2: not asked for audition tape for hustlers, even after crazy rigations,
Speaker 2: was a success.
Speaker 1: And it worked. Yeah, so you wrote, though I usually
Speaker 1: take pride in my scrappiness, sometimes it feels unfair that
Speaker 1: I've had to fight so hard when other people just
Speaker 1: seem blessed. Oh yeah, you know those folks when they
Speaker 1: walk into the room, the air changes. They are the
Speaker 1: golden ones. They have the it factor. I never had.
Speaker 1: I feel emotional almost reading that again, it's so interesting
Speaker 1: because I think of you having it and so you didn't.
Speaker 2: You have met bradt I have?
Speaker 1: You have? I have?
Speaker 2: Okay, I met him once. I felt like when he
Speaker 2: walked in there was a halo around him, did you Yes,
Speaker 2: there he has a thing. He has an inact.
Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. Yeah, but I think that
Speaker 1: there's different types of charisma. Yeah, you know, like the Rock.
Speaker 1: I have not met him like big energy, he's like
Speaker 1: the way at least in interviews, he's the same way
Speaker 1: he is on TV. You have a different type of charisma,
Speaker 1: but to me, like you sparkle and I can't believe
Speaker 1: you didn't feel that way.
Speaker 2: The type of chrism I feel I have is like
Speaker 2: a familiarity, like I feel like I'm pretty good at
Speaker 2: being friends with people, but like but like the golden
Speaker 2: halo that Brad Pitt has when like when he enters
Speaker 2: a room. I had not seen anything like that, and
Speaker 2: I was like, this is That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. Do you feel like you
Speaker 1: had to like work in a different way.
Speaker 2: I definitely feel like I've had to be scrappy and
Speaker 2: I feel like I've often been underestimated, honestly simply because
Speaker 2: of my size or lack thereof. That's why that essay
Speaker 2: is called Little Cassandra. It's about when I was auditioning
Speaker 2: for a Greek play, and Greek plays are huge, right
Speaker 2: the Orisaiyah and the director was like, Ooh, I don't
Speaker 2: know what we're going to do with you. You can't
Speaker 2: carry this big Greek emotion. I was like, fuck I can,
Speaker 2: and I used all that anger that I had when
Speaker 2: he underestimated me and put it into my audition and
Speaker 2: then I got the part. But some people they walk
Speaker 2: in You're like, oh, they're the part, And I feel
Speaker 2: like I've often had to prove myself, which makes me proud,
Speaker 2: but sometimes I'm like, h not fair.
Speaker 1: I totally understand. I think a lot of people will
Speaker 1: read that and feel it. Yeah, so you end up
Speaker 1: moving to LA from New York. You want a fresh start.
Speaker 2: After a breakup. Yeah, that was sort of the in
Speaker 2: theater that made me move to LA.
Speaker 1: And eventually you book Fresh off the Boat, which is
Speaker 1: a life changing role totally. How old were you.
Speaker 2: Think, I was thirty or thirty one.
Speaker 1: Maybe such a good time to book a role like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting time.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like you could breathe a little bit like.
Speaker 2: No, I felt like less. I thought I could breathe
Speaker 2: a little bit more financially, Yeah, but even then, I
Speaker 2: had been scrappy and poor for so long that having
Speaker 2: resources money it makes for the first several years of
Speaker 2: it, it makes you more paranoid, I feel, because it's like
Speaker 2: you didn't have it for so long that you're like
Speaker 2: kind of scared it's going to go away, so you're
Speaker 2: like clinging onto it. And same thing with career success.
Speaker 2: I was not able to breathe more. It made me
Speaker 2: feel like, oh shit, I got a strike while the
Speaker 2: iron it's hot, Like it took a long time for
Speaker 2: me to be comfortable with. I guess career success financial success,
Speaker 2: rather than have it, caused me more paranoia, which seems counterintuitive,
Speaker 2: but that was my experience of it, which is why
Speaker 2: I was so paranoid the first two years of that show,
Speaker 2: when I was withstanding a lot of harassment and threats
Speaker 2: from a producer.
Speaker 1: So that's the part people don't know, which I think
Speaker 1: is really I mean integral. But also so you book
Speaker 1: crazy rich Asians and so these were two central, huge
Speaker 1: moments for Asian American and Asian culture, which I think
Speaker 1: matters in the story as well, because there's so much
Speaker 1: pressure and a huge spotlight on you. So ABC renews
Speaker 1: Fresh off the Boat for season six, and a fan
Speaker 1: tweeted that the pickup was quote great news. You reply, no,
Speaker 1: it's not, and then fucking how and and more right,
Speaker 1: I'm so upset right now, I'm literally crying. And people
Speaker 1: thought you were ungrateful. Yeah, and little did they know
Speaker 1: that you were being harassed on set.
Speaker 2: At that point. I wasn't. Actually I was only harassed
Speaker 2: the first two years.
Speaker 1: But it had happened, like that had already transpired.
Speaker 2: Yes, So it was the build up of years of
Speaker 2: trying to keep that quiet.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it was like the book is making a scene
Speaker 2: because I repressed a lot of things before at this
Speaker 2: for the sake of preserving the show's reputation. But yeah,
Speaker 2: those were the scenes that made the girl. Was the
Speaker 2: sexual harassment, the intimidation, the threats, the paranoia. All that
Speaker 2: happened in the first two seasons. People didn't know, but
Speaker 2: you know, nothing's black and white. So yeah, I can
Speaker 2: understand people reading that and thinking I was ungrateful. I
Speaker 2: could understand how there was a piece of it that
Speaker 2: was ungrateful. But it's not that simple.
Speaker 1: It's not the whole story.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's this writer, Elise Lunan, and she shared this in
Speaker 1: a podcast. She said, it's important for all of us
Speaker 1: to recognize the cultural pattern of women being brought down
Speaker 1: who dare to be seen. It's effectively a shot across
Speaker 1: the bow for the rest of us. It's a warning
Speaker 1: shot of what happens when people pay attention to you.
Speaker 1: You become visible when you express yourself, yourself or gifts
Speaker 1: to the world. We can say I don't have anything
Speaker 1: to do with Megan Markle or Anne Hathaway, their celebrities,
Speaker 1: but in many ways it's the blueprint of persecution for
Speaker 1: visible women. You were so persecuted. I don't think you
Speaker 1: got your fair due, do you. No.
Speaker 2: But I don't think I'm unique in that aspect. I
Speaker 2: think that happens to a lot of people, like you
Speaker 2: were saying, Anne Hathaway, Megan Markle, women who are kind
Speaker 2: of persecuted for things that aren't that bad. Like I
Speaker 2: was talking to somebody who said something up Megan Market
Speaker 2: the other day, like, oh, I just think that she's
Speaker 2: an opportunist, And I'm like, okay, Like I guess me
Speaker 2: putting those self tape auditions on tape when they didn't
Speaker 2: even want them, I guess I'm an opportunist. True, Like
Speaker 2: if she had done something like, you know, murdered children
Speaker 2: or something, Okay, I get it. I get it if
Speaker 2: you don't like her, But it's just this, like I
Speaker 2: don't know, I just there's something I don't like about that,
Speaker 2: and I know it because I used to judge women
Speaker 2: in that way too when I was younger and more insecure.
Speaker 2: I find myself even doing it now, and that's when
Speaker 2: I have to check myself.
Speaker 1: It's the second thought that matters, though, I think, because
Speaker 1: I do it too.
Speaker 2: We all do it, and it's not our fault that
Speaker 2: we do it, So you have to not beat yourself
Speaker 2: up for it is a system that has been like
Speaker 2: pounded into us since we were little girls.
Speaker 1: I felt your struggle, I felt your ambition and your hustle,
Speaker 1: and you talk about all of the things that you did,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you didn't talk about a lot of
Speaker 1: the things that you did to get to this moment.
Speaker 2: There's a lot.
Speaker 1: I know there is. I know it. I get chills
Speaker 1: talking about it because I have that ambition too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get I feel.
Speaker 2: Why is that a bad thing? Because they want us
Speaker 2: to be like who me? Oh I was discovered in
Speaker 2: the pizza parlor. I'm not like oh like I wasn't
Speaker 2: trying to be anything. Oh who MEI like, it's.
Speaker 1: Like not who me?
Speaker 2: Yes me, That's what I want people to say.
Speaker 1: But what does it feel like to work so hard
Speaker 1: and sacrifice so much and have all of that change
Speaker 1: in the matter of seconds.
Speaker 2: It the experience of that changes. You know, I'd be
Speaker 2: lying if I said that there weren't times where it hurts,
Speaker 2: where it adds to a lot of confusion. But I
Speaker 2: think there's also a way to look at it as
Speaker 2: an opportunity and as sort of like a chance to
Speaker 2: clarify your values.
Speaker 1: You kind of talk about it as a silent filter almost.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but not the optics of my life. Like if
Speaker 2: somebody's gonna google me or look at my social media,
Speaker 2: they'd be like, oh, what happened to her? Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: But the actual lived experience of my life has gotten
Speaker 2: so much better. Yeah, but it's it wasn't without some
Speaker 2: trying times, Like it still hurts when I think back
Speaker 2: to that, not when I think back to the moments
Speaker 2: where like I tweeted like fucking and sometimes I think
Speaker 2: it's funny because I'm like, oh God, that's so me.
Speaker 1: But that's left reading and.
Speaker 2: It's so me, like in a bar talking to my
Speaker 2: friends who understand the whole, They understand the scenes that
Speaker 2: made the girl they know me as a person. But
Speaker 2: to like some kid who's reading my tweets, who's like
Speaker 2: ten years old, who wants to be a TV star.
Speaker 2: That sucks for them, And I have empathy for them too,
Speaker 2: so I get that right. So it's many things. It's funny,
Speaker 2: it's sad, it's clarifying, it's fruitful. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: they all want to peg you down to one thing.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you wish people understood about your
Speaker 1: story that you think gets missed?
Speaker 2: No, I think if you had asked me that question
Speaker 2: ten years ago, there would be a lot. But I
Speaker 2: think part of the reason my life is so good
Speaker 2: now it's the freedom from worrying about that perception being misinterpreted. Yeah,
Speaker 2: freeing yourself from that is really, really, really great. But
Speaker 2: I wasn't always there, and I fall back into it sometimes,
Speaker 2: but it's gotten better.
Speaker 1: I read this, closed the last page and thought, this
Speaker 1: is a book about forgiveness. You forgive George? Who is
Speaker 1: an ex that you write about?
Speaker 2: Oh, George, these are all fake names, by the way
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, George is probably wondering why you called him George
Speaker 1: in real life. Oh no, he knows, Okay, I was.
Speaker 2: I'm still in good terms with all my exes. And
Speaker 2: I like, I sent them the essays just to be like, hey,
Speaker 2: is this okay? That was really want to be yeah.
Speaker 1: That was cool of you. Heads up.
Speaker 2: I'd want that somebody to do that to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And luckily they're all like cool really yeah, even my parents.
Speaker 2: That was what I was most nervous to send the
Speaker 2: essay about my parents, the last one to send it
Speaker 2: to them, to be like, I read some personal shit
Speaker 2: in there. I was very nervous about that, but they did.
Speaker 2: Both of them did ask me to change little things
Speaker 2: but understandable. But I got to publish it, so it's good.
Speaker 1: So you forgive George, you forgave the married guy, you
Speaker 1: forgave M who was the producer, producer, and then you
Speaker 1: forgave yourself. Did I I felt like you did? Did
Speaker 1: you not?
Speaker 2: I think some days I do and some days I don't.
Speaker 1: I think I'm still so the days that you don't.
Speaker 1: What are you upset about?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's gonna make me cry right now talking
Speaker 2: about it. I think it is like you know that
Speaker 2: ten eleven, twelve year old kid. Yeah, it's like you know.
Speaker 2: The Pleasure was an essay like where I was accused
Speaker 2: of pleasures I'm like, you know, I forgive myself, but gosh,
Speaker 2: I wish I could have done something or comforted that
Speaker 2: girl or you know, not same thing with the girl
Speaker 2: who was the woman who was sexually harassed on the
Speaker 2: first couple of seasons fresh off the boat, I wish
Speaker 2: I had said something. Since then, other women, other specifically
Speaker 2: Asian American actresses have come up to me and they've
Speaker 2: been like, oh, M did that to me too. Wow,
Speaker 2: So I know that I'm not alone in that, and
Speaker 2: that those are only the women who came up to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like Madge, the ones that happened. M didn't do anything
Speaker 2: quote unquote that bad to me, like but still like
Speaker 2: that was his pattern. So imagine that. And when I
Speaker 2: think about that and how me saying that could have
Speaker 2: maybe prevented that from happening to other women, I feel
Speaker 2: a lot of guilt for that. So sometimes the days
Speaker 2: where I it's hard for me to forgive myself or
Speaker 2: when I think of that, but then I have to remember,
Speaker 2: like I was also in a tough place too, you know,
Speaker 2: So so it changes. It changes. Some days I do
Speaker 2: and some days I don't.
Speaker 1: You know, your essay about the stuff that's unspoken is
Speaker 1: so hard to feel, and you did such an amazing
Speaker 1: job articulating it. That's why my producer and I were
Speaker 1: able to be like, oh me too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think if you haven't experienced it, like
Speaker 2: some men who have read my book and so, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, imagine that every single day. Imagine the mental
Speaker 2: gymnastics I have to navigate around protecting this abuser's ego
Speaker 2: so that I don't seem like I'm a bitch. But
Speaker 2: I don't give in to his sexual requests either. That
Speaker 2: takes a lot of mental space. And what if I
Speaker 2: used all that mental space for my fucking work instead?
Speaker 1: Wow, or to sleep or to sleep anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like, but it's hard to understand if
Speaker 2: you haven't.
Speaker 1: Gone through it. I call it invisible hours.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, invisible hours is good.
Speaker 1: So you said you try on empathy for different people
Speaker 1: from your past. I've never heard anybody say that, because
Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, you try on characters as an actor,
Speaker 1: But I've never thought about trying on empathy in your book.
Speaker 1: What chapter, I don't know which chapter.
Speaker 2: I know I do that, but I don't know if
Speaker 2: I said those exact words. But yes, I oh, no,
Speaker 2: in the rape chapter. In the rape chapter, yeah, because
Speaker 2: I have empathy for my rapist, which.
Speaker 1: Is so fascinating, and you describe that in THEA and.
Speaker 2: For them, the sexual harasser of min And I think
Speaker 2: that's why my book isn't as juicy as people want
Speaker 2: it to be, because I don't villainize, and I don't
Speaker 2: villainize my rapist. I have empathy for them.
Speaker 1: Do you do that because you want people to have
Speaker 1: empathy for you or is that your natural inclination.
Speaker 2: No, it's not my natural inclination. It's something that I've
Speaker 2: developed over years because and here's my boyfriend even said like,
Speaker 2: they don't deserve it, and I'm like, yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: do it for them, and do it for me because
Speaker 2: I feel better when I'm not holding on to this resentment.
Speaker 2: I feel better and I don't blame myself when I think, Oh,
Speaker 2: what might have made this man defensive in this position?
Speaker 2: They don't deserve it. That guy raped me, m sexually harassed,
Speaker 2: intimidated and threatened me and made my life a living
Speaker 2: hell the first two years afresh off the boat. He
Speaker 2: doesn't deserve my forgiveness, but I give it to him
Speaker 2: because I deserve to have a peaceful heart. It's that
Speaker 2: old saying, like having a grudge is like drinking poison
Speaker 2: expecting the other person to die. Well, I think having
Speaker 2: empathy is like drinking nectar for your own nourishment and
Speaker 2: letting that person just be that person.
Speaker 1: You really actually helped me because I'm not great at forgiveness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was thinking, like, when you start creating a
Speaker 1: backstory for a character, you're thinking about what made this person?
Speaker 2: Yeah them? Yeah, it's beautiful training it grows your own heart.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So you don't do it because they deserve it, because
Speaker 2: those fuckers don't. But you deserve to have a big,
Speaker 2: peaceful heart. We deserve it. So what's the best thing
Speaker 2: we can do to grow our hearts without caring about
Speaker 2: Because he's got his own issues. He probably cries and
Speaker 2: jerks off at the same time and takes a shit
Speaker 2: at the same time. He's got his own issues. So
Speaker 2: you know what, let's lets him do his own thing.
Speaker 2: What are we gonna do to grow our hearts? Not
Speaker 2: because they deserve it, but because we deserve to have
Speaker 2: peace to your heart, and for me, some people anger
Speaker 2: and righteousness might grow their hearts for me, forgiveness and empathy,
Speaker 2: even when the fucker doesn't deserve it. It makes me feel
Speaker 2: really good, so I do it for me.
Speaker 1: Is there a moment that made you that maybe just
Speaker 1: didn't make the book, but really shaped who you were
Speaker 1: and who you are?
Speaker 2: I mean, I do think some of our most formative
Speaker 2: years are when we're younger, and I do think there
Speaker 2: are things that have happened when I'm older that should
Speaker 2: have shaped me more. But honestly, I think the Pleasure
Speaker 2: is an essay shaped me the most. I think it's
Speaker 2: because it's that formative time. Eighth grade. I think for
Speaker 2: some reason, whatever happens to you in eighth grade friggin
Speaker 2: sticks with you. That's why there's that movie eighth Grade.
Speaker 2: It's like something about eighth grade.
Speaker 1: Totally.
Speaker 2: But I do think there are moments that other people
Speaker 2: would think would be more formative, like me living in
Speaker 2: the Buddhist monastery, which was great. Yeah, not as formative
Speaker 2: as eighth grade. Something about eighth grade, man, I think
Speaker 2: we'll never get.
Speaker 1: Over those, like we carry that piece for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something about eighth grade.
Speaker 1: Agree. I love your big feelings in the book, Thank You.
Speaker 2: The world does not always love them. So thank you.
Speaker 1: I know, and I think I actually repress some of
Speaker 1: mine because I know the world doesn't like them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's why people hated Anne Hathaway when she
Speaker 2: accepted her like Oscar, because she was having big feelings.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, like, so right, good for her. Don't
Speaker 2: judge her and say, oh, I think she's being in sincere,
Speaker 2: Like whatever, who the fuck cares? She's not doing anything bad, yes,
Speaker 2: but people just have ideas.
Speaker 1: So you talk about love in a way I hadn't
Speaker 1: heard anybody talk about before. You say, so this was
Speaker 1: like your first big love, and you say it was
Speaker 1: a love so strong it hurt to live our lives
Speaker 1: in separate bodies.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I remember that. That was twenty three also
Speaker 2: a formative time.
Speaker 1: But how great that you got to experience a love
Speaker 1: that freaking deep. My god, it's the best.
Speaker 2: It's the best.
Speaker 1: Okay, So big love. I loved how you talk about it.
Speaker 1: How many great loves do you think we get?
Speaker 2: They say three?
Speaker 1: Do you believe them? Uh?
Speaker 2: Huh?
Speaker 1: What? So? I feel like it could be as many
Speaker 1: as you let yourself.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there are a lot of little loves.
Speaker 1: But not big, great loves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't think it's about the person. I
Speaker 2: think it's about the time and life. I see that
Speaker 2: like eighth grade, like the year twenty three when I
Speaker 2: was dating Buck. I think at the very end of
Speaker 2: that chapter, there's a line that a lot of people
Speaker 2: respond to, which I say, there's a window in your
Speaker 2: life when you're old enough for sex to not be
Speaker 2: a new concept, but you're young enough to love without fear.
Speaker 2: And he and I found each other in that window.
Speaker 2: I think if he and I saw each other today,
Speaker 2: like I think we'd be cool, but I think the
Speaker 2: possibility of that love wouldn't be there just because it
Speaker 2: was about the time in our lives. So that's why
Speaker 2: I think it's probably three. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was a choice or it
Speaker 1: was a timing thing. But you didn't write about your
Speaker 1: current partner in the book.
Speaker 2: That was a timing thing.
Speaker 1: That was a timing thing. Yeah, okay, because you write
Speaker 1: about a lot of relationships and love that you have,
Speaker 1: which I love because I think they hold a mirror
Speaker 1: up to us. Sometimes women in particular, I think, don't
Speaker 1: want to write about men or their.
Speaker 2: Love, or they only want to write about it, but
Speaker 2: sometimes they don't want to because they fear they won't
Speaker 2: be taken seriously. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1: I think or they think that it's like not feminist,
Speaker 1: But in some way, I think our relationships really are
Speaker 1: scenes that make the girl in so many ways.
Speaker 2: I think the most feminisiesst thing to do is to
Speaker 2: be yourself. And if that's what you want to talk about,
Speaker 2: go for it. But yeah, I started writing that book
Speaker 2: at this point, got over eight years ago, and so
Speaker 2: it was before you know, I met my partner, before
Speaker 2: we were dating or any of that, and most of
Speaker 2: it does focus on my childhood.
Speaker 1: To be honest, you said you wanted to share your
Speaker 1: story because it might help someone with their own. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how specifically have people approached you about the book?
Speaker 2: For starters, A lot of other women have told me
Speaker 2: that M also sexually harassed them. It's been very disheartening
Speaker 2: how a lot of Asian American men have reacted to it,
Speaker 2: but in terms of how women have reacted to it,
Speaker 2: it's been very heartening. I think I tried to not
Speaker 2: make myself seem like I'm just this cool, likable person.
Speaker 2: I don't might trying to make myself seem unlikable, but
Speaker 2: I tried to make myself seem complex and human cause
Speaker 2: that's the kind of pros I respond to. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I think some people, some people don't like that. They
Speaker 2: want the like, oh who mes story? So yeah, it's
Speaker 2: been a mixed bag.
Speaker 1: You talk about that silent filter in terms of being
Speaker 1: cast now, right, because the people that you're working with
Speaker 1: really match your values so much more. Yeah, you said,
Speaker 1: I'm no longer hustling to be someone posting to prove something,
Speaker 1: striving to get somewhere. Yeah, and I love when you
Speaker 1: talk about making art for you. You say there will
Speaker 1: always be people who don't get it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, cause if you're catering your work to the haters
Speaker 2: or to like people don't get you, then your work
Speaker 2: is just gonna become.
Speaker 1: Nothing.
Speaker 2: The thing that's special is your point of view and
Speaker 2: your voice. So if you're bending it or catering it
Speaker 2: to please people, then the thing that was great about
Speaker 2: it in the first place gets diluted or disappears.
Speaker 1: What kind of art do you want to make now?
Speaker 2: I think I'm very much a kitchen sink drama type
Speaker 2: of girl. I don't want big epics, I want small stories.
Speaker 2: I say in the book, you know, the greatest happiness
Speaker 2: to me is like my kid who's like almost three now,
Speaker 2: Like seeing her at the breakfast table with her messy
Speaker 2: hair and her pajamas on, or like holding space for
Speaker 2: her big feelings rather than trying to bargain them away,
Speaker 2: or like navigate them, just holding space for them. And
Speaker 2: I think those small human stories are what I've was
Speaker 2: originally drawn to. And I got a little lost because
Speaker 2: the fame machine was something I had never I'd always thought, oh,
Speaker 2: that looks cool, but then once you've been in it,
Speaker 2: it's a different experience. And I think some people really
Speaker 2: thrive in that experience, and that's great. I think I've learned.
Speaker 2: I don't. I think like in my car essay, I
Speaker 2: think I'm a I'm a Toyota Camry type girl, not
Speaker 2: a Rolls Royce type girl.
Speaker 1: That is really interesting to come to.
Speaker 2: I think if I was in a Rolls Royce, I
Speaker 2: would actually be more embarrassed, where some people if they
Speaker 2: rolled up in a Toyota Camry, they'd be more embarrassed.
Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed to have like you will never see you
Speaker 2: have never seen me, and you will never see me
Speaker 2: at a New York Fashion Week fashion show. No cool
Speaker 2: if other like if people are really into fashion, it's
Speaker 2: just I just feel it just feels awkward. You want
Speaker 2: to talk about somebody being insincere. I think the idea
Speaker 2: of me doing a New York Fashion Week sitting in
Speaker 2: the front row, or like me having a fancy car,
Speaker 2: that feels inauthentic to me.
Speaker 1: Well, what's your relationship with fame now, because it's like
Speaker 1: you're already famous. There's no putting the toothpaste back in
Speaker 1: the tube with fame.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is, girls, you think, Yeah, that's why they
Speaker 2: call it the fifteen Minutes.
Speaker 1: No, you're not fifteen minutes. Crazy Rich Asians is everybody's
Speaker 1: favorite film was No I'll Help You. My mom, like
Speaker 1: she lives in the Midwest in Chicago, does not care
Speaker 1: about anything I do. She's like, she watches Crazy Rich Asians.
Speaker 1: She's seen it like thirty times.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: It makes people so happy.
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, I mean I'll never be able to
Speaker 2: get back to my waitressing days totally. Like, I get that,
Speaker 2: But I can make choices now that align with you.
Speaker 2: My newfound knowledge of who I am, what I want,
Speaker 2: which is not fame of course, I do like having
Speaker 2: money to not worry about stop, so I had to
Speaker 2: think about that. But you know, most of the things
Speaker 2: I've chosen now have been like theater jobs or just
Speaker 2: things that align more with my values, or if I
Speaker 2: were to take a big movie, the schedule would be
Speaker 2: in service of, like my family life.
Speaker 1: What would it feel like to be on the set
Speaker 1: of Crazy Rich Asians the sequel? Now, it's cause you're
Speaker 1: such a different person than when you film the first one.
Speaker 2: I made some really great friends on that set, like
Speaker 2: Nora Aquafina and I are good friends, and Jimmy and
Speaker 2: Henry and John and I and they've all been really
Speaker 2: want Those people have been really wonderful to me. But
Speaker 2: it would be different because, yeah, we've chosen different career paths.
Speaker 2: I don't think the path that I've chosen is the
Speaker 2: one that most people would have imagined I would have chosen,
Speaker 2: but it is a choice. But then it would also
Speaker 2: just be fun to just like do a scene with
Speaker 2: me or again, like just because I fucking love her
Speaker 2: and we love each other. But it would be different,
Speaker 2: like I can't go out and drink after a night's
Speaker 2: work because I had kids. You know what I mean,
Speaker 2: so would be very different.
Speaker 1: So you dedicate the book to your daughter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was before my son was born.
Speaker 1: So we need a second book, so we have a
Speaker 1: second dedication.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, I just breaking news. Nobody knew I had
Speaker 2: a son. I just said that on here.
Speaker 1: Oh that's fine, thank you for sharing. Yeah, it's exciting
Speaker 1: to have one of you.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we were so shocked.
Speaker 1: Did you not know till you gave birth? No?
Speaker 2: No, I mean I knew from the blood test. But
Speaker 2: even when they told me that, because my mom had
Speaker 2: four girls, I was like, oh, I'm only gonna have girls.
Speaker 2: And then they were like, you're having a boy. I
Speaker 2: was like, are you sure if.
Speaker 1: You feel prepared to be a boy mom, it's.
Speaker 2: Still early on. So like, it feels unfair for me
Speaker 2: to say like, oh, this is different because he's a boy.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of the differences I'm experiencing are
Speaker 2: I'm like, he's just a different person. It's not because
Speaker 2: of his sex. But also it's like it's our second kid,
Speaker 2: so we have less anxiety around it. We've done it before,
Speaker 2: we have the stuff, so it just feels like a
Speaker 2: different kid, but not necessarily because of the sex of
Speaker 2: the kid, but I don't know. It remains to be seen.
Speaker 2: It's still early. I mean, he's not he's still a
Speaker 2: little nugget.
Speaker 1: It's exciting.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you dedicate the book to your daughter, and I
Speaker 1: am as I was reading it, I imagine her picking
Speaker 1: it up one day. There's so many stories about my
Speaker 1: mom that I'm sure exists that I don't know about,
Speaker 1: and she's going to be able to read about your
Speaker 1: head's face. So intimately, did you think about that when
Speaker 1: you were writing it?
Speaker 2: Not when I was writing it. The writing will not
Speaker 2: be good if you're thinking about that as you're writing.
Speaker 2: As you're writing. You need to be in the experience
Speaker 2: when you're editing and when you're going through legal. Yes,
Speaker 2: you think about that kind of stuff. And my mom
Speaker 2: was very worried for me.
Speaker 1: What do you mean?
Speaker 2: She was like, Ah, your daughter's gonna read this someday.
Speaker 2: You sure you want her to know that you went
Speaker 2: through all this? Maybe that's not good to know? And
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I think, I actually do. I
Speaker 2: think me learning about my mom's difficult experiences really opened
Speaker 2: up a new world for me that I did not
Speaker 2: have appreciation for when I was younger, so I understand
Speaker 2: her point of view and I listened to it, but
Speaker 2: I stick with mine.
Speaker 1: You have to write follow your core. Yeah, I was looking.
Speaker 1: I was in Chicago cleaning out my childhood room. When
Speaker 1: I was looking at baby photos, I was looking at
Speaker 1: myself as like an eight year old, and I got
Speaker 1: so emotional for some reason. You write that essay about
Speaker 1: plagiarism the eighth grade one. Yes, when you look at
Speaker 1: a photo of yourself now as a seventh grader, eighth grader,
Speaker 1: do you feel like she would be proud of you?
Speaker 2: When I remember who I was in eighth grade, I
Speaker 2: think she might be a little bit judgy wudgie towards me,
Speaker 2: because I think that's how we teach girls to be sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think she.
Speaker 2: Would have been proud of me in the height of
Speaker 2: my crazy rigasians like success so interesting, Yeah, because I
Speaker 2: think she didn't. That eighth grader doesn't know what that
Speaker 2: feels like, that experience. She just knows what it looks
Speaker 2: like from the magazines and from social media. Me, the
Speaker 2: forty one year old, I know what it feels like
Speaker 2: because it's different.
Speaker 1: But I really have this emotional reckoning. I feel like
Speaker 1: you've been wise forever.
Speaker 2: No, I'm not wise, really, No, I'm dumb. Somebody, somebody
Speaker 2: who's wise would not tweet fucking how on you know
Speaker 2: about the renewal of her show. I think I've lost you.
Speaker 1: Would had it. No.
Speaker 2: I have had a lot of therapy and I have
Speaker 2: a lot of clarity. But I'm not wise. No, I'm
Speaker 2: very foolish. And what a gift, What an opportunity to learn?
Speaker 2: I tell myself, I do a little rapid fire, great fun.
Speaker 2: I know I talk a lot, so it's good to
Speaker 2: do some rap and shit.
Speaker 1: When was the last time you cried.
Speaker 2: Like five ten minutes ago. I think it was, yeah,
Speaker 2: when you were talking about forgiveness.
Speaker 1: Maybe I think something that Hollywood took from you, my
Speaker 1: student loan debt, Something that Hollywood gave.
Speaker 2: You knowledge that fame is not for everyone.
Speaker 1: What's something you used to think people were exaggerating about
Speaker 1: until you experienced it yourself.
Speaker 2: Sleep deprivation in motherhood.
Speaker 1: Don't tell me that it's that bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's also great, But it's yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: What is a book that changed your life? Something you
Speaker 1: think everybody should read?
Speaker 2: The Neapologan Novels by Ellena Fronte.
Speaker 1: I've never heard of those.
Speaker 2: Uh, They're fantastic, and I think every man and woman
Speaker 2: should read them, especially men. Actually, even though it's a
Speaker 2: female story, humanizes women in a way that is. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the Neapolitan novels. Everybody should read those.
Speaker 1: What is the smartest decision you've ever made?
Speaker 2: Having a kid?
Speaker 1: N having a kid? Yeah, you just mentioned faith. Did
Speaker 1: you always have it or was it something that was
Speaker 1: a crude?
Speaker 2: I have an ongoing relationship with it. I have always
Speaker 2: had it. I think I've directed it in different areas,
Speaker 2: whether it's religion or art, or friendship or higher powers,
Speaker 2: what be. I think it's essential to our being. The
Speaker 2: form it takes is not always helpful to people or society,
Speaker 2: but finding the right form of it for yourself. I
Speaker 2: think this is a pretty It's like oxygen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, we have a pretty smart question if
Speaker 1: you wanna open it and choose whichever one.
Speaker 2: What is the best advice someone has given you and why.
Speaker 2: One time I had a therapist. I was talking about
Speaker 2: this new friendship that I was happening, and for some reason,
Speaker 2: I was like, I was being very honest in therapy,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know for some reason,
Speaker 2: like what if we hang out and it's not fun
Speaker 2: or like it's like the worst time, or he thinks
Speaker 2: I'm like a loser or whatever. And this was friendship,
Speaker 2: not romance. What if it's like sucks? And she looked
Speaker 2: at me and she goes so, and I was like.
Speaker 1: What do you mean?
Speaker 2: So actually, okay, it's part of it. And I was like, oh, oh,
Speaker 2: and that guy and I are like still best friends
Speaker 2: to the today. It's funny. But I was like, I
Speaker 2: really wanna be friends with him, but like, what if
Speaker 2: what do you so?
Speaker 1: So okay.
Speaker 2: So sometimes when I'm having fears about things and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is the worst outcome, then I say to myself, so, okay,
Speaker 2: I mean unless it's like an actual bad outcome, like oh,
Speaker 2: you might lose your leg if you do that. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's not so that's something Oh and the worst. When
Speaker 2: I was younger, somebody once told me, and I at
Speaker 2: the time I thought it was brilliant. Someone once told
Speaker 2: me you could get whatever you want by appealing to
Speaker 2: somebody's vanities. It's true, Wow, But is it kind and
Speaker 2: is it human? And is it aligned with your values?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: And I think that's what I did my first years
Speaker 2: afresh off the boat was I played the game with
Speaker 2: my sexual harasser, and I'd be like, oh, you're such
Speaker 2: a dick whatever to make him feel like he was
Speaker 2: funny and like he was a man and whatever. I
Speaker 2: was appealing to his insecurities, his vanities of being masculine, but.
Speaker 1: At what cost.
Speaker 2: So it was a piece of advice that I used
Speaker 2: to think was good.
Speaker 1: But thank you for sharing that, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Thanks Constance. Yeah, and I want to thank the people
Speaker 1: that make the show possible. Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe,
Speaker 1: and Phil speed Tech. Okay, you know what time it is.
Speaker 1: Today's a good day. To have a good day. I'll
Speaker 1: see you next week.