WEBVTT - Making a Scene with Constance Wu 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.119 Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.320 pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.120 and I have conversations that put a new spin on 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:21.040 pretty This is pretty smart. There's been plenty of times 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.800 I've wanted to make a scene, say something, get mad, 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.520 get loud, and I just don't because I am very 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.879 aware of the repercussions of it. But I'd like to 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.600 think that every time a woman has the courage to 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.720 make a scene, less women have to. The last time 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.320 Golden Globe nominated actress Constance Wu made a scene, it 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.680 was twenty eighteen. She took to Twitter to react to 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:50.880 her sitcom Fresh Off the Boat, being renewed. She first 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:56.000 cryptically tweeted, so upset right now that I'm literally crying 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:02.000 of as. Then the Internet, the media, and even some 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.320 of her cast members came for her. 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.360 So it seemed really insensitive of her to go out 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:09.759 there and do that. 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:15.160 In short, Constance blew up her career, the career she 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.480 had tireusly worked for and sacrificed for fifteen years. It 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:25.040 all disappeared, and then she disappeared. Well that is until 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:27.440 one year ago when she re emerged with a new 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:31.679 memoir called Making a Scene. In it, she reveals the 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.680 complicated moments that we didn't see in public, the moments 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.080 that led to her eventual breakdown. She revisits some of 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.600 those painful and intimate chapters of her life, the ones 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:50.440 that reshaped her world. In today's episode. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.000 Those were the scenes that made the girl. Was the 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:55.440 sexual harassment, the intimidation, the threats, the paranoia, all that. 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.720 Today, nearly a year after re emerging back into public life, 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:02.360 Constance has a new perspective. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.000 You know, I'd be lying if I said that there 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:09.320 weren't times where it hurts, where it adds to a 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:12.480 lot of confusion. But I think there's also a way 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:14.840 to look at it as an opportunity. 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.280 And she also gives us a glimpse into her world 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.520 and her growing family with an announcement I was not expecting. 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.120 Oh, I just breaking news. Nobody knew I had a son. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.720 I just said that on here today. A reminder that 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.400 sometimes your biggest challenges are the things that will change 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.920 you the most, and that oftentimes when we feel like 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:40.280 we are criticizing somebody, it should really be an invitation 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:47.480 to get curious instead making a scene. I was so 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:50.680 moved constance your stories. I feel like I wanted to 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.119 hold it close to my chest for some reason. It's 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.440 like close to my heart. I can imagine you felt 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.399 that way when writing it. But at the beginning you write, 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.120 I stop thinking about the girl a scene and started 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.880 thinking about the scenes that made the girl. I was hooked. 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.360 Then I had chills. I love a sort of like 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.520 a pun. Why making a scene? How did you come 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:10.360 up with the title. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.959 It kind of just happened organically, which as I was 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.760 writing the essays in that book, I feel like the 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:22.119 essays crystallize. The second the title crystallized it it would all. 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.600 That's when I knew something was working. And I noticed 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:30.320 a theme within most of these essays where it was 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.600 about women being perceived as making a scene because they 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.680 or myself had repressed our voices for so long that 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.840 it sort of bubbles up, you know, because it's going 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.000 to go somewhere, whether it's like you get a hernia 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:49.120 or you like have a moment on Twitter, which is 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.760 what I had. And I was writing one essay in 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.200 that that was about being raped and about how the 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.560 movie idea of rape is very violent when really it's 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.000 just someone having sex with you without your consent. And 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.640 how my version what happened to me is I just 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.880 said I am not ready to have sex with you. 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.840 I did not consent. I said no, and then he 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:15.400 just didn't listen. And I didn't physically fight back because well, 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.200 I mean, A, he's twice my size, were in his apartment. 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:20.720 You know, if I fight back, I'm going to get 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:24.520 beat up. And B I didn't want to make a scene. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.320 And how that sort of that idea of what it 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:31.560 means to make a scene, where it comes from how 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.240 we judge women based on that, instead of thinking of 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.960 everything that led her up to those choices. It's dehumanizing 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.200 to say this woman is making a scene instead of 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.240 being like, oh, something's happening here, that's out of character, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:50.480 that's out of whack. That must mean something's going on. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.400 Let me investigate the person a little bit more rather 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.800 than immediately running to judgment. So it was just making 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.000 a scene. The idea of that was a recurring thing 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:02.760 and every essay that I wrote, and they're all very 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.720 personal essays, and so the title was just kind of 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:07.120 obvious to me. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.680 I think personal is the word I thought of too, 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.760 particularly the essay that you just spoke about, as well 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.400 as the one about your producer m which we'll talk 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.960 about a little bit more further. But I felt like 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:23.560 you could have left out a lot of details that 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.360 you intentionally put in that made it so much more 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:33.320 nuanced and complex. The producer that I work with for 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.719 the show called me and we both read your book, 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.560 and she was like, I feel like every woman in 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:45.920 the world has had a moment that feels something like this. Yeah, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:51.120 and it's easier sometimes to just say nothing than to 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:52.520 quote unquote make a scene. 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:57.400 Yeah. And also it's in many ways to say nothing, 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.560 especially if you've gotten good at playing the game awarded 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:05.080 for it. So it's kind of like, but at what cost, 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.279 which is why I think the cost is the perpetuation 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:14.599 of repression and misogyny and the patriarchy. 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:19.240 You lose yourself. I felt every time I don't say something, 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.920 I lose a piece of my soul a little bit. 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.520 I know that sounds yeah, I feel like I lose 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:25.479 a piece of my soul. 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:25.960 Yeah. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.560 To not do that, I want to be careful to 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.320 not judge women who, for example, do not want to 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.440 talk about these things, because I always think of my sister, 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.800 who I wrote this about in this book, how she's 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.680 an introvert and she's quieter, and there is a world 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.200 in which somebody might judge her for not being an activist, 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.800 for not speaking up. But really we shouldn't blame her. 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:56.160 We should blame the system that puts her in that situation. 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:02.000 But we're so quick, even within progressive feminist groups, to 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.160 lay the blame on the woman. So I want to 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:06.880 be careful that. I was, like, you know what, I 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.680 am a person who is uniquely extroverted and doesn't give 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.040 a fuck enough to talk about these things at the 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:20.520 risk of my reputation or my career. I'm actually genuinely 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.920 okay with that, when I know most people a lot 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.960 of people aren't. So if I actually am okay with it, 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.080 then why don't I do that for people like my daughter, 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:35.640 my little sister, who that's not their natural voice. So yeah, 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.880 it's a fine line, because at what point are you 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:43.120 a pushover or what point are you just a person 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:47.120 who's just a little bit more introverted and sensitive and 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.160 less aggressive. And how do we make sure that we 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:52.920 don't judge people like that too? 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.000 That's well said. I think everyone has to make that 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:56.480 choice for themselves. Yeah. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.720 I mean that's what true feminism is. It isn't the 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.520 stereotype Oh I'm pretty, my bra and I have armbit hair. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:07.040 It's making the choice for yourself about what you want 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.680 to be, who you want to be, and being allowed 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.440 to be that. It's just being a fully formed human being. 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.440 Yeah. I think that not everybody knows about your time 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.880 in New York, how much you hustled, what you sacrificed 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.520 when you were auditioning. Mm hmm. I loved reading about 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:29.440 your time waitressing. You even did something that I think 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.360 a lot of actors reading this or listening to the 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:37.360 podcast will appreciate. You would put yourself on tape and 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.560 submit to things even if you weren't called for that casting. 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:43.959 Oh yeah, that's amazing. 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:48.800 I was really like on it. I was consumed with 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.920 and I've always been consumed with being an actor. Yeah, 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.760 I was hustling. Like if I would beg my agent 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.000 or manager please let them give me an audition, and 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.839 if they didn't, I'd be like, well, do you have 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.000 an other clients who are auditioning? Give me the sides, 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:03.880 which is the script that you use for the audition. 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.200 I'll put myself on tape send it to them, and 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:08.920 then if they didn't have the sides. There was even 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:10.600 a time where they're like, we don't have the sides. 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.839 I made it up, your kids. I wrote my own 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.800 fucking script. Yeah, and I said, I'm like, this is 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.439 what I think the character would do. Let me just 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.080 send you a sample of what I did. I didn't 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.800 get it, but like, it's so funny. I talked to 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.960 young actors and they're like, ooh, but isn't that like 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.200 embarrassing or bad? And I'm like, I could see why 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.120 somebody might shame you for that. Fuck them, man, like 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.760 do it? What's the worst that could happen? No, Okay, 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:37.560 they tried. 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.360 Yeah, and I thought was interesting, Is you even did 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:41.120 it for hustlers? 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:42.840 I did do it for hustlers? 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:44.840 Yeah, and you had quote unquote made it already. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.360 Yeah, that was after crazy ritations. I did it for hustle. 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:48.640 I put myself on tape. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.120 There's this word in Yiddish hutzpa, like set you as 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.719 such hutzpah. It's amazing I did, but I. 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.440 Also it's hut spot in terms of like doing it, 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.319 but also I was in like my friend's ho house 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:02.840 and we did. So it's like I didn't have to. 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.679 Like it's not like huts but like skydiving huts, but 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.400 time of like it's just sort of like might argue. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:12.960 Yours was scarier than something else. Yeah, like emotional, Yeah, scary. 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.120 But I did. Yeah, I did sent in my own, 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:20.960 not asked for audition tape for hustlers, even after crazy rigations, 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:22.120 was a success. 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.280 And it worked. Yeah, so you wrote, though I usually 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.040 take pride in my scrappiness, sometimes it feels unfair that 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.040 I've had to fight so hard when other people just 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.679 seem blessed. Oh yeah, you know those folks when they 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.200 walk into the room, the air changes. They are the 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.280 golden ones. They have the it factor. I never had. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:43.199 I feel emotional almost reading that again, it's so interesting 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.719 because I think of you having it and so you didn't. 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.760 You have met bradt I have? 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:50.200 You have? I have? 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.760 Okay, I met him once. I felt like when he 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.480 walked in there was a halo around him, did you Yes, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.439 there he has a thing. He has an inact. 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.560 I get what you're saying. Yeah, but I think that 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:05.080 there's different types of charisma. Yeah, you know, like the Rock. 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.280 I have not met him like big energy, he's like 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.960 the way at least in interviews, he's the same way 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:17.120 he is on TV. You have a different type of charisma, 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.800 but to me, like you sparkle and I can't believe 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:21.840 you didn't feel that way. 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.040 The type of chrism I feel I have is like 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.120 a familiarity, like I feel like I'm pretty good at 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.040 being friends with people, but like but like the golden 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.120 halo that Brad Pitt has when like when he enters 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.800 a room. I had not seen anything like that, and 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.680 I was like, this is That's what I'm talking about. 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:41.400 I get what you're saying. Do you feel like you 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:43.080 had to like work in a different way. 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.160 I definitely feel like I've had to be scrappy and 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:51.720 I feel like I've often been underestimated, honestly simply because 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:56.280 of my size or lack thereof. That's why that essay 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:58.840 is called Little Cassandra. It's about when I was auditioning 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.040 for a Greek play, and Greek plays are huge, right 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.520 the Orisaiyah and the director was like, Ooh, I don't 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:07.640 know what we're going to do with you. You can't 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.720 carry this big Greek emotion. I was like, fuck I can, 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.760 and I used all that anger that I had when 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.040 he underestimated me and put it into my audition and 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.040 then I got the part. But some people they walk 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.200 in You're like, oh, they're the part, And I feel 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:29.080 like I've often had to prove myself, which makes me proud, 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:32.800 but sometimes I'm like, h not fair. 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.720 I totally understand. I think a lot of people will 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.720 read that and feel it. Yeah, so you end up 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.400 moving to LA from New York. You want a fresh start. 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:45.360 After a breakup. Yeah, that was sort of the in 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.360 theater that made me move to LA. 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.240 And eventually you book Fresh off the Boat, which is 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.160 a life changing role totally. How old were you. 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:55.400 Think, I was thirty or thirty one. 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.040 Maybe such a good time to book a role like that. 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.720 Yeah, interesting time. 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.000 Did you feel like you could breathe a little bit like. 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.160 No, I felt like less. I thought I could breathe 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.920 a little bit more financially, Yeah, but even then, I 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:15.120 had been scrappy and poor for so long that having 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:21.640 resources money it makes for the first several years of 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.040 it, it makes you more paranoid, I feel, because it's like 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.040 you didn't have it for so long that you're like 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.679 kind of scared it's going to go away, so you're 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.640 like clinging onto it. And same thing with career success. 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:35.840 I was not able to breathe more. It made me 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.520 feel like, oh shit, I got a strike while the 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.320 iron it's hot, Like it took a long time for 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:48.800 me to be comfortable with. I guess career success financial success, 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.959 rather than have it, caused me more paranoia, which seems counterintuitive, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.600 but that was my experience of it, which is why 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.680 I was so paranoid the first two years of that show, 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.720 when I was withstanding a lot of harassment and threats 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:03.720 from a producer. 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.640 So that's the part people don't know, which I think 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:11.320 is really I mean integral. But also so you book 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:15.000 crazy rich Asians and so these were two central, huge 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.760 moments for Asian American and Asian culture, which I think 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:21.320 matters in the story as well, because there's so much 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.840 pressure and a huge spotlight on you. So ABC renews 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:26.960 Fresh off the Boat for season six, and a fan 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.480 tweeted that the pickup was quote great news. You reply, no, 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.680 it's not, and then fucking how and and more right, 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.240 I'm so upset right now, I'm literally crying. And people 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:42.280 thought you were ungrateful. Yeah, and little did they know 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.520 that you were being harassed on set. 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.440 At that point. I wasn't. Actually I was only harassed 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:49.720 the first two years. 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.280 But it had happened, like that had already transpired. 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:57.920 Yes, So it was the build up of years of 0:14:57.960 --> 0:14:59.360 trying to keep that quiet. 0:14:59.600 --> 0:14:59.960 Yeah. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.440 So it was like the book is making a scene 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.960 because I repressed a lot of things before at this 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.240 for the sake of preserving the show's reputation. But yeah, 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.840 those were the scenes that made the girl. Was the 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:16.280 sexual harassment, the intimidation, the threats, the paranoia. All that 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.320 happened in the first two seasons. People didn't know, but 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:21.680 you know, nothing's black and white. So yeah, I can 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.120 understand people reading that and thinking I was ungrateful. I 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.560 could understand how there was a piece of it that 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.040 was ungrateful. But it's not that simple. 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:33.520 It's not the whole story. 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.359 Yeah. 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.680 There's this writer, Elise Lunan, and she shared this in 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.640 a podcast. She said, it's important for all of us 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.960 to recognize the cultural pattern of women being brought down 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.000 who dare to be seen. It's effectively a shot across 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.080 the bow for the rest of us. It's a warning 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.760 shot of what happens when people pay attention to you. 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.960 You become visible when you express yourself, yourself or gifts 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.040 to the world. We can say I don't have anything 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.920 to do with Megan Markle or Anne Hathaway, their celebrities, 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.640 but in many ways it's the blueprint of persecution for 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.520 visible women. You were so persecuted. I don't think you 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:11.000 got your fair due, do you. No. 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.760 But I don't think I'm unique in that aspect. I 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:15.480 think that happens to a lot of people, like you 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:20.280 were saying, Anne Hathaway, Megan Markle, women who are kind 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:26.280 of persecuted for things that aren't that bad. Like I 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.920 was talking to somebody who said something up Megan Market 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:30.960 the other day, like, oh, I just think that she's 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:36.600 an opportunist, And I'm like, okay, Like I guess me 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.200 putting those self tape auditions on tape when they didn't 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.720 even want them, I guess I'm an opportunist. True, Like 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.960 if she had done something like, you know, murdered children 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.400 or something, Okay, I get it. I get it if 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.560 you don't like her, But it's just this, like I 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.160 don't know, I just there's something I don't like about that, 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.760 and I know it because I used to judge women 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.479 in that way too when I was younger and more insecure. 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:02.840 I find myself even doing it now, and that's when 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.200 I have to check myself. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:07.840 It's the second thought that matters, though, I think, because 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:08.560 I do it too. 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.119 We all do it, and it's not our fault that 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:12.679 we do it, So you have to not beat yourself 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.080 up for it is a system that has been like 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.959 pounded into us since we were little girls. 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:24.120 I felt your struggle, I felt your ambition and your hustle, 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.040 and you talk about all of the things that you did, 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:28.600 and I'm sure you didn't talk about a lot of 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.280 the things that you did to get to this moment. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:32.159 There's a lot. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.040 I know there is. I know it. I get chills 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.520 talking about it because I have that ambition too. Yeah, 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:39.639 I get I feel. 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.959 Why is that a bad thing? Because they want us 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.000 to be like who me? Oh I was discovered in 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.000 the pizza parlor. I'm not like oh like I wasn't 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.920 trying to be anything. Oh who MEI like, it's. 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:52.040 Like not who me? 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.480 Yes me, That's what I want people to say. 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.400 But what does it feel like to work so hard 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:03.360 and sacrifice so much and have all of that change 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.200 in the matter of seconds. 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:10.840 It the experience of that changes. You know, I'd be 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:15.200 lying if I said that there weren't times where it hurts, 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:18.639 where it adds to a lot of confusion. But I 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.440 think there's also a way to look at it as 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.359 an opportunity and as sort of like a chance to 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:27.240 clarify your values. 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.200 You kind of talk about it as a silent filter almost. 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:37.120 Yeah, but not the optics of my life. Like if 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.159 somebody's gonna google me or look at my social media, 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.480 they'd be like, oh, what happened to her? Blah blah blah. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.399 But the actual lived experience of my life has gotten 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:52.159 so much better. Yeah, but it's it wasn't without some 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.560 trying times, Like it still hurts when I think back 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.520 to that, not when I think back to the moments 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.440 where like I tweeted like fucking and sometimes I think 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.040 it's funny because I'm like, oh God, that's so me. 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.080 But that's left reading and. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.960 It's so me, like in a bar talking to my 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.800 friends who understand the whole, They understand the scenes that 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.080 made the girl they know me as a person. But 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.639 to like some kid who's reading my tweets, who's like 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.160 ten years old, who wants to be a TV star. 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.280 That sucks for them, And I have empathy for them too, 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.959 so I get that right. So it's many things. It's funny, 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:32.800 it's sad, it's clarifying, it's fruitful. But yeah, I mean, 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.000 they all want to peg you down to one thing. 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.359 Is there anything that you wish people understood about your 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:40.840 story that you think gets missed? 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.119 No, I think if you had asked me that question 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.439 ten years ago, there would be a lot. But I 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.640 think part of the reason my life is so good 0:19:50.720 --> 0:20:00.679 now it's the freedom from worrying about that perception being misinterpreted. Yeah, 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:05.600 freeing yourself from that is really, really, really great. But 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.080 I wasn't always there, and I fall back into it sometimes, 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:09.800 but it's gotten better. 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:15.240 I read this, closed the last page and thought, this 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:20.119 is a book about forgiveness. You forgive George? Who is 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:21.919 an ex that you write about? 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.560 Oh, George, these are all fake names, by the way 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:25.440 I have. 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.560 Yeah, George is probably wondering why you called him George 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.720 in real life. Oh no, he knows, Okay, I was. 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.280 I'm still in good terms with all my exes. And 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.160 I like, I sent them the essays just to be like, hey, 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.560 is this okay? That was really want to be yeah. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.040 That was cool of you. Heads up. 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.520 I'd want that somebody to do that to me. Yeah, 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:51.480 And luckily they're all like cool really yeah, even my parents. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.320 That was what I was most nervous to send the 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.840 essay about my parents, the last one to send it 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.360 to them, to be like, I read some personal shit 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.720 in there. I was very nervous about that, but they did. 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:02.800 Both of them did ask me to change little things 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.080 but understandable. But I got to publish it, so it's good. 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:11.520 So you forgive George, you forgave the married guy, you 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.399 forgave M who was the producer, producer, and then you 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.960 forgave yourself. Did I I felt like you did? Did 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:20.199 you not? 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:23.160 I think some days I do and some days I don't. 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.360 I think I'm still so the days that you don't. 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.000 What are you upset about? 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:31.960 I mean, it's gonna make me cry right now talking 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:36.879 about it. I think it is like you know that 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:42.280 ten eleven, twelve year old kid. Yeah, it's like you know. 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.760 The Pleasure was an essay like where I was accused 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:49.040 of pleasures I'm like, you know, I forgive myself, but gosh, 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.280