WEBVTT - Cults: Who is this "The Leader?" 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.920 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.560 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you should know 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:16.360 from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.119 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always his 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.720 brother Chuck Bryant. Brother Chuck. How are you doing today, 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.799 josh Odie? I'm doing just fine. Do you know what 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.319 I was gonna leave with? I just had Josh Odi 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:34.479 ready at the ready. Okay, you'll understand everybody in the second, right, Chuck. 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.760 I know you know this, But let's go back to 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:42.280 the night of March. Do you know what happened in 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.680 Rancho Santa Fe, a suburb of a suburb of San 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.919 Diego that night? I do? Okay, Well, I'm gonna tell 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.720 you anyway. Uh. Thirty nine people Well, beginning that night, 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.680 over three days, beginning that night, thirty nine people gave 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.880 up their lives. Uh. And they are. They were collectively 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.200 known as Heaven's Gate. They were the members of the 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:09.880 Heaven's Gate cult famously wore those black nikes um and 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.959 beginning on Marche, which was the spring solstice, the vernal 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:20.360 equinox um, a commet was coming by the hail bop comment, 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.400 And what the Heaven's Gate members believed was that UM 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:27.280 flying using the comment is cover, was a spaceship that 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.759 they could go rendezvous with the pilots and basically UM 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.840 be picked up as spirits and attached to the pilots 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.400 of this spaceship because the world was coming to an 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:39.800 end here and they needed to get out of here. 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.160 But they had to commit ritualistic suicide. So on the 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.520 first night, about a third of them took a combination 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.240 of apple sauce and UM pharmaceuticals and I think Jack 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.960 Daniels or something uh and died and for good measure 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.560 put bags over their heads uh. And then once they 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.480 were dead, the other members cleaned them up and so 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.240 on UM. And this happened for three nights in a row, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.880 until thirty nine people were dead and found in this mansion. 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:09.079 UM two didn't didn't make it. They weren't there something, 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.480 and they went and got a hotel room and killed 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.480 themselves in the desert like a month later. UM. But 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:22.639 what's what's interesting about Heaven's Gate is that they all 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.240 of these were suicides. There was no murder. And you 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.440 go back and look at UM what are called like 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.040 their exit videos. There's about ten hours of tape of 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.560 the members talking and they seem very excited about what 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.480 they're going to do, seem vari at peace. It's disturbing 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.320 to watch now, but they seem very relaxed, very at peace, 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:42.880 and very much like they know what they're doing. Yeah. Um, 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.760 So aside from even though these these were um, these 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:53.120 weren't forced, they were suicides, and because it ended in 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:58.360 a apocalyptic suit mass suicide pact, Heaven's Gate would be 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:03.760 what's called a destructive which we're Although it's titled How 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:08.000 Cults Work, this episode is actually about destructive cults are 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.400 the ones that are get all depressed. One reason why 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.520 we're gonna we need to make that differentiation is because 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.080 in a lot of ways, um, the in a lot 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:22.000 of cases the only difference between cult and a religion 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.760 is whether or not it's mainstream. Right, careful, but it's true. Well, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.360 there's a few differences. Mainstream is one. Uh, Usually a 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.960 mainstream religion will have a hierarchy, whereas a cult will 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.160 have the single leader in the hierarchy in theory keeps 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:42.800 one another in check. And uh, the cults usually demand 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:48.040 absolute um commitment, like you live there yeah, and whereas 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.880 a mainstream religion generally does not require that you can 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.720 have your own home. Okay, so we're not saying it's 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.280 the same thing as religion. No, But if you are 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:01.120 a sociologist a psychologist UM, and you've there's going to 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:06.520 be very little distinction between the two UM. So that's 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:11.120 not the case though with UM destructive or totalist cults, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.960 they're very different, right they are. You You can make 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.719 the case that religion or a non destructive cult UM 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.520 helps its members get over their vulnerabilities, I think, is 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.240 how it's put in this article. Through spiritual guidance support, 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.600 it's a good place of growth, is what it's intended 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:36.960 to be. A destructive cult is basically UM run by 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.919 a person with the intent of absolute control over the 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.320 members in a complete surrender of their will. I have 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.159 a question, and that's this is a good time to 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:48.720 put it in there. I wonder sometimes because we're gonna 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.359 talk about cult leaders specifically in a bit, but I 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.760 wonder if the cult leader and I think it it varies, 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.200 actually believes Like when I see Marshall apple White, I 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.839 think he really believed this stuff seemed to when I 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.040 see a Jim Jones, he seems like a huckster. Well, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.760 he was on a lot of drugs, on drugs, uh 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.960 having sex with multiple women. Umm, Martial apple White was 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.599 not having sex with multiple women. He was a unique 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.920 and not into women. Um. But my point is, like 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.760 the cult leader, I guess vary. Sometimes they really actually 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:26.919 believe that. Sometimes they're you know, manipulators who are power 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.080 hungry and and maybe after money or what have you. Right, 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:32.640 And I think that there's probably a transition that any 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:37.080 cult leader would undergo as the power and loyalty grows. 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.359 And even if you are a huckster, you're eventually going 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.520 to start buying into your own hype just because it's 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.200 so appealing, you know. Good point. But yeah, I think 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.280 that is a great point to to put in their chuck, 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.000 that there are cult leaders out there who believe in 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:55.320 what they're saying. Um. So we've we've said basically the 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:59.720 primary characteristic of a destructive cult is that there's uh 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.840 at solute control over the members, a surrender of will 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.680 um to the group and ultimately to the leader. Right, 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:13.000 who is this the leader? Is that time? Yeah? Okay, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.240 no no, no no, no, no, no no, no leader. We 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:22.240 mentioned the Simpsons, whether movementarians. Yeah, remember the right episode 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.200 the flying bikes, the hover bikes with the comb in 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:31.200 the wax paper. So Simpsons fans, hold your emails. Yes, 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.560 we didn't mention it covered right, But um so let's 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:39.840 let's talk about um. I guess this authoritarian leadership structure 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.440 you you might call it. What are the hallmarks of it? Well, 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:45.839 it's one of the hallmarks is like we said, it's 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:50.039 it's typically just one dude. Let me say dude, because 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.440 it's usually a man. Although there are some um instances 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.360 that's not sure. We'll get to those in a minute, right, 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.200 And that's one of the problems because power, we've seen 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.560 it time and time again, can corrupt even the most 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.880 supurate heart, and a lot of these aren't pure at 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:08.400 heart to begin with. And then uh, another problem here 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.080 is that there they operate outside the mainstream. So in 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:13.960 the case of Jim Jones, which I know we're gonna 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.360 get to in detail, they were in Ghana, Guiana, Guiana. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.280 Oh God, that's a different place, right, They're in Guiana, 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.320 So they were way outside the mainstream, so they didn't 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.480 have people checking up on them. And it's it's the 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.240 isolation factor. Is huge. Yes, if the religious group that 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:35.360 you subscribe to UM lives on a ranch together, it 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:40.120 may be a cult. Yeah we're in the woods or 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:45.480 in Guiana. Right. Um. There's some other I guess kind 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.400 of giveaways that become less and less apparent the more 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:54.120 immersed you become. UM. And that would be deception and recruiting, 0:07:54.560 --> 0:08:00.720 right UM thought reformed techniques, which, although very controversial UM, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.840 are believed to be real and can have an an 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.680 effect on a person's outlook. Yeah, all right, we'll get 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.600 into that as well, in much more detail. And we've 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.920 got into a big time in brainwashing, we did, and 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.320 and that's UM. A lot of those are very similar. 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:21.200 You brainwash me, I did. Remember you're no longer a hipster, 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:25.679 that's right, but I still have the goatee. Uh. Good 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.120 out outside is bad, whoever is on the inside is good. 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.600 That's a huge homework. Like a real us in them, 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.960 a clear divide is on us and very much, which 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.600 can lead to a lot of feelings of persecution, paranoia 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.439 and UM. Generally an idea that or that's I guess 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.559 generally supported by the idea that UM, since most destructive 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.760 cults are religious in nature, Uh, that the in group, 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.679 the cult is saved and everybody outside the bad people 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.240 are all damned to hell. So let's talk about the 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:03.439 the leader himself. The leader, Yeah, well, they're usually very charismatic, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.520 very charming, can turn on the world with a smile, 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.480 or at least their cult with a smile. They which 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.880 gets people, you know, very much readily able to follow 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:18.480 them without question. Um. They're very devoted. They don't question 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.960 the leader. They don't question what the leader tells them 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.480 to do. They you know, this is once you're in, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.320 not you know, initially there may be questions, but after 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.960 the thought reform takes place, well you're in. The reason 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.640 forethought reform is to get rid of those questions, right, yeah. Uh. 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.440 They are typically either say their God and considered God 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.280 or the Messiah, or that they are the only path 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.600 to God. Their prophets. Essentially, they have some sort of 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:52.040 religious designation, right, singular religious designation that no one else 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.680 in the cult has but them, which means whether the leader. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.640 And you can't really topple the leader unless you too 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.319 are prophet, which I imagine that's got to be a 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.440 surprising day for everybody in the Coultwan. You know, maybe 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.439 a number two or three in command goes, you know what, 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:09.760 I just found out that I am a prophet as well, 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:14.959 and the leaders like um trouble brewing. Yah. The other 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.360 important thing here too, I thought was interesting that typically 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.240 cult members are devoted to the leader and not the 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.960 even the leader's ideas. Yeah. That's a good point too, Like, 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:28.559 you know, Jim Jones, stay worshiped Jim Jones, not his 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:34.880 Christian ideals. Because as pointed out Um, Jim Jones UH 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:38.240 and David Koresh, who was the leader of the Branch 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:42.360 division davidians Um both started out in in what we 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:46.560 would consider mainstream religious groups. Jim Jones was a pastor 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.760 Christian pastor. He was the Disciples of Christ was his 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.520 original Christian group, and David Koresh's was he was originally 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:59.120 in the Seventh day Adventist. Yeah. Um. And one of 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.200 the ways that cult leaders become cult leaders is that 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:09.200 they are often overly enthusiastic maybe in their mainstream religious groups. 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.800 They freak their mainstream religious groups out pretty much and 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.760 they're like, you need to get out here. But their 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:20.440 ideas or their charisma or whatever, there's something about them 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.040 that makes other members of the church go, I'm going 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.400 with this guy, splinter off, create your own cult. It's 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.720 no longer mainstream, so you're cold. And in the case 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.640 of Koresh, he was um showed some instability and some 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.840 of the things that he was influencing some of the 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.440 the youth in the church. They said, no, you don't 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:39.840 like what you're telling the kids, so you need to 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:41.600 get out of here. Yeah, and we don't like that 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.240 you're touching the kids, so you need to get out. 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.120 And I'm going out. I'm taking the kids with me. Yeah. 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:50.400 Apparently also um uh, not Jim Jones, but the prophet 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:55.880 Mo who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. Apparently he and David Koresh. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:57.520 And I was reading this. I only saw it in 0:11:57.559 --> 0:11:59.760 one place, but I didn't get a chance to really 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.480 cry us reference it. Um that both of them had 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.040 their first sexual experiences with far, far older women, like 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.640 Koresh's um first encounter with a woman was with the 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.880 seventies six year old and I mean, you laugh, but 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.040 I mean, like, I think he's a teenager. But um, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.520 what's strange is both of them went the opposite way 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:28.719 after that, Like Koresh's second wife was fourteen. Um, the 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.200 prophet Mo kidnapped Elizabeth Smart and I think she was 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.160 like fourteen as well, So, um, there's interesting. I think 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.560 that's something for deeper study, don't you think, Like if 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:43.200 you're sexual encounter, so the very old person become a 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.040 cult leader, that's probably a pretty good predictor you're gonna 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.480 take very young wives and the FBI is gonna come 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.719 set your compound on fire. At the very least, it 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.240 shows you might be unstable. Sure, I don't know if 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.440 they would just see that and say a variety of 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.320 a spice of life or I mean, surely you've seen 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.640 Harold and Maud so it can go really well. So 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.040 you're right, Josh. A lot of times occult leaders are 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:09.400 former religious mainstream religious leaders or members. Not always in 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.640 the case of like a Charlie Manson, right, who who 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.680 personifies the huckster you're talking about. Yeah, he wasn't a 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:19.319 religious dude at all. He was um, psychotic and emotionally 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.400 disturbed from the time that he was a young kid 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:26.040 and a thief and a vandal and eventually rapist and 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:31.600 pimp and fraud a pretty big jerk in general jerk. 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.360 So he was let out of prison. Um as everyone knows. 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:36.520 At one point in the late sixties, I went to 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.840 San Francisco. All the hippies were very susceptible to his charms, 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.559 his little short midget redneck charms. Right, because when you're 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.120 on acid, Charlie Manson makes a lot of sense. Yeah, 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.800 you know, But you know, I never heard him talk 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.520 until later in life, and when I did, I went 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.800 I had no idea he was such a redneck. Oh yeah, 0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.280 I heard his accent and I was like, you gotta 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.000 be kidding me. He this is the guy that got 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.560 people to murder all these faults and that that forced 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.120 like labored stare like, look at my eyes, and it's 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.600 just laughable. Yea, it is, Sorry, Charlie, but it worked 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.560 in his case, and the Manson family famously killed um 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.360 how many people, seven people, Roman Plantcy's wife, most of 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.360 them at the at Sharon Tate's house, Sharon Tate. Yeah, 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.200 and he didn't do it himself, which is, you know, 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.080 one of the traits of a good cult leaders. You 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.560 can get people to do things for you. Yeah. But um, 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:33.520 the the US prosecutors still, or the California prosecutors still 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.640 managed to get him put away for life, even though 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.600 he didn't kill anybody, just the ordering of these murders. 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.120 They got him pretty good. I think the state of 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:47.560 California was more than willing to keep Charlie Manson locked 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.120 up forever though. It's well, he's pretty notorious for in 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.000 his parole hearings just saying really crazy things still where 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.680 they're like, okay, yeah, you clearly don't have any interest. 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.280 I remember being a kid, like I never understood that 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.120 when I when I came to understand there was a 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.440 Charlie Manson, and like he did say the stuff and 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.720 at parole hearings like why would you do that? And 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.080 my dad told me, like, if he gets out of prisons, 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.880 he's dead. And now I don't think that that's necessarily true, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.400 although he probably would still believe that. Um, but he's 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.600 probably so institutionalized he wouldn't know what to do because 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.200 he was in jail for years off and on, you know, 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.960 from his teenage years on. He has a cell phone. 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.160 They caught him on the cell phone recently in jail. 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:32.560 What are you calling me? Are you sure? I'm positive? 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.960 So Manson referred to himself as God and Satan both 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:42.880 well his followers did. Yeah, um, squeaky From. Yeah, apparently 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.760 after Charlie was locked up, Um, Squeaky From decided that 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:52.760 his plight was losing media attention, Charlie's plight, Um, and 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:56.920 so she uh tried to shoot Gerald Ford and it 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.920 definitely got attention. Again. I think that that, if anything, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.040 if if the murders didn't cement the Manson family into 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:09.560 the American psyche forever, Squeaky From managed to finally put 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.840 the glue in the bone, as it were, with the 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.920 attempted presidential assassination. Yeah, and she also carved an X 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.720 in her forehead on the courthouse steps. And Manson still 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.000 has a swastia on his forehead. It's tough to get 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:29.200 rid of. Yeah, just ask the Inglories bastards. Right, so, Josh, Yes, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.520 let's talk about recruitment. Yeah, what kind of a person 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:38.200 would fall for this? Clearly, a raving lunatic is the 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.560 only person who could become a full occult member, right, wrong? 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:49.120 What and seen? We uh a lot a lot of 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.280 times you think of them as mentally ill, but they've 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.560 done studies and apparently there's only a slightly higher incidence 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:58.600 of mental instability and cult members then you and me, Well, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.600 mental illness at least, yeah, and the than in the 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:07.560 regular population. What they have found that most people in 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.399 the normal population don't have that cult members usually have 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.080 in common is that when they were recruited, it was 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.359 during a particularly stressful period in their life. You know, 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:23.840 that scale of stressful life events like death of a spouse, divorce, um, 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.120 death of a child, adolescence. Yeah, that's that's up there, 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:33.320 really far Um, any of those make you, while you're 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:38.439 going through them, better cult recruit than you would normally be. 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.000 You've been stressed out lately. Oh I just joined up? 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.160 Are you? Are you right for the picking my robes 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.640 in my bank? That's not true because you're not any 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:51.639 of these other things like gullible. You don't think I am, 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.080 of course not. Gullibility is a trait, you know. You 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.200 gotta believe what's going on here pretty easily. Um. Usually 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.199 you're unassertive. Uh, you're dissolute Asian with what's going on 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:05.240 around you, and you're looking for some answers, right, you're 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.920 a naive, that's and you're looking for some spiritual meaning 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:16.200 in your life. And I'm utterly and totally dependent you are. Well, 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:20.280 that's yeah, that's on the list at least UM. And 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.360 there are actually places where people who fit these bills 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.040 are going through a period in time in their life 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.920 that's rough tend to hang out more than say the 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.720 average bar or whatever. That would be a self help group, 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:39.600 grief support group, UM, basically any group where people sit 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.840 around in a circle and there's crying. That's a pretty 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:44.679 good place you you want to be on the lookout 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.879 for a cult recruiter there. Uh. And one of the 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.560 you're you're probably not going to exit the conference room 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.400 in the local community center after your grief support group 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.840 and you know, see some guy in a road handing 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.320 you a flower. It would be it will be much 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.480 less obvious than that. It'll probably be someone who's a 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.920 member of the group. Yeah, that's one of the ways. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.120 If you say I would never fall for that, think 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.800 about if someone you knew personally UM invited you to 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.960 a meeting where you were going to talk about better 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.760 ways to help the community raise some money for a 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.439 New Boys club, Right, and you happen to be at 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.840 church and you're you know, one of the deacons vouched 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.560 for the person who was talking. You wouldn't even question them, right, 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:29.679 That's how it happened. Sometimes or if you were at 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.320 a group support group and somebody said, hey, you know, 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.440 this is peanuts compared to this other group support group. 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:39.200 This this group of people have um all been through 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.359 this tragedy and they are um really great at getting 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.480 people past the stages of grief. So you should come 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.080 and hang out. You should try this other one too. Um. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.840 There's a lot of deception associated with cult recruitment. As 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.400 a matter of fact, it's pretty much the hallmark of it, right. Yeah. 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.560 Initially they don't tell you what in the world you're 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:02.720 in for because you probably wouldn't go, probably though, right. Uh. 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.600 They isolate you from the get go with um their 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.160 meetings usually the whole meetings at times where you may 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:14.200 normally be with your family dinner, dinner time. They might 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.520 hold it at a place like a retreat, get you 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.479 away for the weekend, so you're hearing nothing but the 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.760 cults ideas and views for a weekend, which makes it 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.880 seem during that forty eight hours a lot less weird. Yeah, 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.719 and you've got no feedback, You've got no feedback from 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.280 the real world. Yes, because once you go back out 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:33.040 in there and you haven't fully joined up, so you're 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.200 still going to and from your house to these meetings, 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:40.040 which are remember grief support meetings that have a lot 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:43.320 to do with you know, religion that you haven't noticed before. 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.520 But it's cool. Um, you're asked when you go back 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.280 home not to talk about the group until you understand 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.479 it more like you know, they don't. You don't want 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:54.080 to hear anyone poop doing it just yet because you 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:55.880 won't get it. Yeah, they won't get it, and so 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.680 you don't. And like you said, your feedback structure is narrowed, 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.560 so you don't have anything but self doubt. Your doubts 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.359 that would normally be of the group are now doubts 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.000 about yourself. Because why why why do you always have 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:13.040 so such a tendency to just criticize everything. I mean, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:15.160 look at all these people, they're all happy and smiling, 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.760 and they seem Yeah, why can't you just get on board? 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:24.720 And then you're suddenly a lot more susceptible to joining up. Yeah. Well, 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.199 and at that point that's when they can hit you 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:32.080 with the proper mind control techniques brainwashing one O one. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.920 Should we go over it? Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.640 of people who are hearing this that didn't listen to brainwashing. 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:40.000 But you know what, if you have it, and you 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.800 should go back and listen to it twice three times 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.440 in a place in the woods where we'll meet you. 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:52.440 It's if you play it backwards, the location will be repealed. 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:57.640 We're laughing. Nothing about this is funny except the things 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:04.399 that we're saying. Um, thought reform, brainwashing, coercive persuasion is 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.160 this is the key here. It is the systematic breakdown 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.600 of your sense of self. And it's similar to what 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.800 you do in uh, let's say Guantanamo Bay, maybe when 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:18.800 you're interrogating a prisoner. Sure, similar techniques. You could also 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.080 make a pretty strong case that it's similar to what 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.280 happens to here in boot camp. And the article goes 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:26.960 out of its way to defend boot camp by saying 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.080 there's three huge differences. One, the military is accountable for 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.879 its actions. Destructive cults tend not to be until, like, 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:39.639 you know, the government's at your door. Um. Recruits who 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.760 join up are making an informed decision. They know that 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:45.200 they're going to be going in to be broken down 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.280 and built up as a soldier. Yeah, I'm gonna look 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:49.520 in dress like the other people and eat the same 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:51.880 meals and all that kind of thing, and then um, 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:54.800 there's a set period of time. Yeah, it's not for 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:57.240 the rest of your life. Until you eat that apple sauce. 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:02.679 It's fill the g I bill and you're done. So Chuck, 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:08.240 let's talk about the techniques. Well, they're gonna deceive you, 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:13.640 they're gonna trick you. Uh, they're gonna hide all signs 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:17.879 of real paranoid They're gonna hide all signs of anything 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.119 illegal or immoral at first. So you're buying into it, 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:23.119 you know, all you're also not going to get the 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.639 full picture of what the cults about. Like we said 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:28.679 that grief support group is not really what it is. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.800 Sometimes they might even uh, you know, alter your consciousness 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:36.280 a bit with like meditation or drugs or chanting. That 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:39.880 kind of thing make you vulnerable. We already talked about isolation. 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:41.600 That's one of the biggest parts of it. And it 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:44.640 doesn't necessarily have to be physical isolation, although it can be. 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:48.720 Patty Hurst famously, when she was kidnapped by the Symbionese 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:53.240 Liberal Liberation Army UM, she was apparently put into a 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:57.960 closet for like weeks, and she was berated and yelled 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:04.240