Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Speaker 1: Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My
Speaker 1: guest is Ben Silverman, chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content.
Speaker 1: It's not an exaggeration to say that Ben helped shape
Speaker 1: the modern TV business, and in this episode we drill
Speaker 1: down deep into how an independent production venture such as
Speaker 1: Propagate makes money. Coin Moolah, Cheddar Greenbacks, dead Presidents. We
Speaker 1: are talking about money. How do companies like Propagate prosper
Speaker 1: Ben goes there happily, and that's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why I've enjoyed covering him over the years. Propagate is
Speaker 1: busy in TV and film. It has talent management interests
Speaker 1: and is increasingly active in managing and setting up brand
Speaker 1: partnerships for social media creators. Rewind the tape about twenty
Speaker 1: five years. Ben was a savvy William Morris agent who
Speaker 1: helped producer Michael Davies bring who Wants to Be a
Speaker 1: Millionaire to America, saving ABC in the process. He did
Speaker 1: a lot of very creative deals and was ahead of
Speaker 1: the curve in working with brands to help finance content.
Speaker 1: In the natural way of these things, Ben eventually lit
Speaker 1: out of the ten percentary world to launch his own
Speaker 1: production banner, Reavely. That company yielded such shows as The Office,
Speaker 1: Ugly Betty and The Tutors. We talk about what happened
Speaker 1: with Revey years ago as we go through the twists
Speaker 1: and turns of the journey that led Ben to Propagate Content,
Speaker 1: and of course we talk a little bit about those
Speaker 1: two momentous years two thousand and seven Towan when Ben
Speaker 1: ran programming for NBC. After the conversation with Ben, please
Speaker 1: stay tuned for a real treat from my friend writ
Speaker 1: or Bill Prady. Bill was watching John Oliver on Last
Speaker 1: Week Tonight the other day and a very meaningful moment
Speaker 1: from his past came up totally out of the blue.
Speaker 1: It inspired Bill to revisit one of those one of
Speaker 1: a kind eyewitness to history experiences that you're lucky to
Speaker 1: have if you're lucky enough to work in show business.
Speaker 1: That's all coming up after this break, and we're back
Speaker 1: with my conversation with Ben Silverman of Propagate Content. Ben Silverman,
Speaker 1: chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content. Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Cynthia, great to see you.
Speaker 1: You are about ten years now into the gate you
Speaker 1: launched it in early twenty fifteen. I want to talk
Speaker 1: about the different strands of your business, the content production,
Speaker 1: the social media management that you're getting into, your different investments.
Speaker 1: But let's start at the core business of producing TV
Speaker 1: and film and documentary content. You do a wide range
Speaker 1: of genres. Where are your biggest opportunities to make money?
Speaker 1: Right now? How does Propagate make money?
Speaker 2: Well? I always felt like, you know, the hits find
Speaker 2: money and success creates opportunity. I do see there are
Speaker 2: places we can take risk. So we have a partnership
Speaker 2: in our documentary business called Buttermilk that actually has a
Speaker 2: funding source that we utilize to invest in documentaries, and
Speaker 2: there we can look at okay, we are fully funding
Speaker 2: this documentary, like our upcoming Boy George Culture Club documentary,
Speaker 2: which will be premiering at Tribeca June fifth, is a
Speaker 2: film that now through that premiere process, could be sold
Speaker 2: to the highest bidder. It doesn't just get consumed by
Speaker 2: a platform and they dictate the terms. It's something that
Speaker 2: can create a competitive subset around that piece of property.
Speaker 2: Because we invested in it because we made it and
Speaker 2: took that risk. There should be more of a reward
Speaker 2: and better economic terms associated with So we've built a
Speaker 2: slate of extraordinary documentaries that we do that way, and
Speaker 2: those have some arbitrage and upside in the financial part
Speaker 2: of those films happening and risk because if they don't
Speaker 2: get one hundred percent return on their investment, are our
Speaker 2: partner and investor and we lose money. And so it's
Speaker 2: you know, it's risk taking, but it's risk taking I
Speaker 2: think on a measured and smart scale because documentaries don't
Speaker 2: cost as much as episodes of Game of Thrones, so
Speaker 2: it makes it an easier bet for an independent company.
Speaker 2: Then on the other side.
Speaker 1: Let me stop you there and say is it licensing?
Speaker 1: Is it the pure licensing fees? Is there any other
Speaker 1: model other than you produce a film and you license
Speaker 1: it to a streamer, you put it in the box office.
Speaker 1: Are the brands coming into this business? I'm pressing you
Speaker 1: on how you make money?
Speaker 2: So inside that business you can go to all those lanes.
Speaker 2: We could choose to theatrically distribute it through partners and
Speaker 2: then window it and then control the actual ip and
Speaker 2: copyright on it because we fully funded it, and so
Speaker 2: that we're licensing it for maybe a term, you know,
Speaker 2: three years, five years, two years, and licensing it through
Speaker 2: our own international distribution group around the world, and then
Speaker 2: building cycles of revenue and windows and library value. Where
Speaker 2: I think documentaries were considered more disposable years ago, they're
Speaker 2: now showing real staying power in their actual terminal value
Speaker 2: and residual value. And as we have these hyper competitive
Speaker 2: streamers playing cops and robbers with each other, there's this
Speaker 2: opportunity to potentially license that content as they set up
Speaker 2: walls between themselves and how they buy content or produce
Speaker 2: content and build those kind of vertically integrated platforms, So
Speaker 2: that becomes an opportunity and a way to make money.
Speaker 2: Another way is to build out premium content that you
Speaker 2: just produce for a fee with upside if it gets
Speaker 2: picked up for multiple seasons in the streaming world. And
Speaker 2: that shows like our upcoming stick which we're making for Apple,
Speaker 2: Lulu the Rhinoceros, the kids show we're making for Apple,
Speaker 2: which comes out in May twenty ninth, that comes out
Speaker 2: June fourth, starring Owen Wilson, set in the golf world,
Speaker 2: and then those are just about can we get longevity.
Speaker 2: Can we build in a bonus based fee structure that
Speaker 2: if we hit a season three, four or five, we're
Speaker 2: getting some back ends that kind of kick in, even
Speaker 2: though those shows are likely to only remain within the
Speaker 2: Apple ecosystem, there are incentives for us to obviously deliver
Speaker 2: the most premium content possible, but also bonuses and revenue.
Speaker 2: They don't look like or compared to having an off
Speaker 2: network syndicated monster, but they do provide upside and cash.
Speaker 2: And you're taking only development and executive risk, you're not
Speaker 2: taking physical production risks. Then there are shows like the
Speaker 2: one we're making. We have a show that should be
Speaker 2: announced soon for Fox Broadcasting where it's a real upside opportunity. Right,
Speaker 2: we make a fee on that show that will air
Speaker 2: on Fox, and Fox likely will be the studio partner
Speaker 2: as well on it, but they will license it around
Speaker 2: the world to maximize revenue everywhere they can. They will
Speaker 2: look to license and maximize revenue as well within the
Speaker 2: North American windows off of Fox Broadcasting. And so then
Speaker 2: suddenly you have a real chance for economic upside and
Speaker 2: value creation beyond just the first run of that show.
Speaker 2: And if you get to that place where you get
Speaker 2: success in multiple episodes, there's a chance to sell it
Speaker 2: around the world to different buyers and make significant back ends.
Speaker 2: Then we also continue to do reality television and where
Speaker 2: those shows have international format potential or opportunities to kind
Speaker 2: of integrate or build businesses connected to them, I think
Speaker 2: are great chances for us to make money as well.
Speaker 2: And across that whole group of content, we continue, as
Speaker 2: you know, we always have to work with advertisers. So
Speaker 2: can we light up a little more revenue with an
Speaker 2: advertising partner? Can we light up more revenue with a
Speaker 2: merchandising opportunity? Right stick is set in the world of golf.
Speaker 2: There's so many people interested in golf and being connected
Speaker 2: to the golf consumer, and there are so many opportunities
Speaker 2: for golf actual merchandising opportunities. Can we unlock that. Lulua
Speaker 2: the Rhinoceros is a kid's show, can we unlock the
Speaker 2: value that based on a book that comes with a
Speaker 2: animated show, or the voice of that show is the
Speaker 2: young woman who is Mawana and you know, so there's
Speaker 2: a music soundtrack in that show. Can we unlock value
Speaker 2: in that participation? So all of those piece of content
Speaker 2: have different versions of financial return. None of them today
Speaker 2: other than probably the broadcasting one or the animated one,
Speaker 2: have like the kind of massive potential upside that we
Speaker 2: had making TV shows in the nineties and odds.
Speaker 1: So now to get to that sort of scale that
Speaker 1: you need, you really do need a certain volume.
Speaker 2: You need a volume, and you need chips on the
Speaker 2: table and bets, and you need to think through as
Speaker 2: smartly as you can. Whatevery deal looks like for where
Speaker 2: that upside lies. Right In an animated show, the upside
Speaker 2: lies and merchandising and soundtrack.
Speaker 1: In a.
Speaker 2: Reality show, it's format and advertising dollars. You have to
Speaker 2: look at them all around. Where is the value creation opportunity?
Speaker 2: And the fact is the streamers have kind of shut
Speaker 2: their walls a little bit, so it's hard to exploit
Speaker 2: outside of the platforms.
Speaker 1: In a case like your animated show, Do you own that?
Speaker 2: Because it was based on a book that we partnered on.
Speaker 2: Apple owns all of the television show, but we are
Speaker 2: partners in the merchandising and the soundtrack, and so it's
Speaker 2: thinking through things as you enter those deals based on
Speaker 2: how powerful is the underlying ip in that case it's
Speaker 2: based on a book called Little of the Rhinoceros that
Speaker 2: was a bestseller and pre existed, and the writers of
Speaker 2: that book, who also helped adapt the show, as the
Speaker 2: writers of the script. You know, we're very clear we
Speaker 2: have value here. And so that that was a negotiation
Speaker 2: where both sides participate, both sides of upside and you
Speaker 2: could sass be making Little Lulu stuffies and T shirts
Speaker 2: and soundtracks and all that that goes with a big
Speaker 2: animated hit and then and then with some of these others,
Speaker 2: there may be less merchandising opportunity like a documentary, but
Speaker 2: there may be upside an opportunity and that you financed
Speaker 2: it and can actually own the IP. And what we're seeing,
Speaker 2: like with some of our untold franchise that we make
Speaker 2: for Netflix, is real opportunity to actually exploit the doc
Speaker 2: ep the way you would have exploited the non fiction book.
Speaker 2: So we're turning our film about the Dan Barry Thrashers
Speaker 2: crimes and penalties into a movie with Netflix. We're working
Speaker 2: on a film based on our Johnny Manziel documentary Johnny
Speaker 2: Football that we made for Netflix. So and have a
Speaker 2: major movie star attached. So you're able to kind of
Speaker 2: build those into IP, their self funding IP and with
Speaker 2: a little profit. But then there's this greater upside down
Speaker 2: the road because you've actually got a piece of IP
Speaker 2: that can translate the way that nonfiction books did fifteen
Speaker 2: twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: In the span of Propagate. All of what you just
Speaker 1: discussed is very much how business is done in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five, but very different to how was done. What's
Speaker 1: it been like to kind of have this perch and
Speaker 1: watch the content business both explode in size and global scope,
Speaker 1: but also now in the last couple of years post strike,
Speaker 1: it's also contracting well.
Speaker 2: I think for us, we've been consciously diversified, always entrepreneurial, creative,
Speaker 2: lad and we have not burned money like so many
Speaker 2: of our peers who when this system kind of retracted
Speaker 2: a little bit, they were forced into mergers, they were
Speaker 2: forced into sales, they were forced into bankruptcies, you know.
Speaker 2: And so we have been able to remain profitable and
Speaker 2: self sustaining after a lyft from our initial investors at
Speaker 2: A and E and RAIN, And that obviously is a
Speaker 2: differentiation to who we are and our independence, but it's
Speaker 2: also because we've invested across genre. We were never genre
Speaker 2: specific when I started in the nineties to age myself, like,
Speaker 2: you know, no one you were a game show producer,
Speaker 2: you were a documentary producer, you were a sitcom producer.
Speaker 1: It was very rigid. It was very rigid, and.
Speaker 2: I broke all those walls down right. I was doing
Speaker 2: my first eighteen months of my first company. I was
Speaker 2: doing the Tutors, The Biggest Loser, Ugly Betty, and the Office.
Speaker 2: There was no pigeonholing, you know what we did. And
Speaker 2: so I think that was very valuable for us inside
Speaker 2: our business. And Howard Owens and Drew Buckley, who've worked
Speaker 2: with me for a long time, are of that same
Speaker 2: mold and model, and so we had a lot of
Speaker 2: ability to work across multiple genres and a lot of
Speaker 2: relationships that we could manifest into great content in multiple genres.
Speaker 2: So I think that's very valuable because when you have
Speaker 2: a strike, you can make a reality show when you
Speaker 2: have when you have a downturn in one side of
Speaker 2: the business, you're able to produce more efficiently in the other.
Speaker 2: When you when you have documentaries as a passion and
Speaker 2: then it explodes into a business, you're sitting there in
Speaker 2: a first driver's seat because you made the nine to
Speaker 2: eleven with the Nowadays who we've now done in nine
Speaker 2: films with, and you have worked with the net first
Speaker 2: scene on Hillary and now she's doing our Sam Banking Free.
Speaker 2: You've you we represented Kenya Barris through Artists First and
Speaker 2: we're able to put him into our Jerry West documentary.
Speaker 2: So you're able to really do things, I think uniquely
Speaker 2: that come from the diversity of content we produce in
Speaker 2: our and are turned on by.
Speaker 1: At what point did you hit the break even mark?
Speaker 1: Like how many years in did you get to the
Speaker 1: point where you could take a breath and like, you know,
Speaker 1: see that revenue was coming in.
Speaker 2: We really used capital to acquire businesses, specifically investments in
Speaker 2: Artists First and Authentic and Select the management companies and Electis,
Speaker 2: which was my old company that produced Chopped and actually
Speaker 2: had investments in those companies. And so we really use
Speaker 2: the capital to create the acquisitions that led to us
Speaker 2: being profitable and break even. And that was how we
Speaker 2: used the capital as opposed to just funding content or
Speaker 2: development or executives. And we've had expansion retrenchment, expansion retrenchment
Speaker 2: and a lot of that happened with the marketplace transformation
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, between Strike and then you know, just
Speaker 2: the retrenchment and then the challenges that a lot of
Speaker 2: the players have had from Paramount to Max and beyond
Speaker 2: to continue to invest. And I'm really hopeful that new
Speaker 2: investment will arrive as we see companies like Paramount figure
Speaker 2: themselves out. When this merger is finally done, I think
Speaker 2: that's going to be a big stimulus into the industry.
Speaker 2: I think what NBC Universal is doing and spinning out
Speaker 2: under Mark Lazarus, this new cable company as a pure
Speaker 2: play and then having Peacock in the studio be more
Speaker 2: pure played, like, I think that's going to unlock opportunity.
Speaker 2: So I see some moves on the horizon that will
Speaker 2: unlock opportunity. And I see the reorganization at Amazon unlocking
Speaker 2: much smarter, better investment. And I see the Apple you
Speaker 2: know shows being so good that I think they'll continue
Speaker 2: to look to deliver on the promise of these great
Speaker 2: shows that they're making right now.
Speaker 1: Are A and E Networks and Rain are they still
Speaker 1: in as investors?
Speaker 2: They are. They are both investors in the company, and
Speaker 2: we do a lot of content with Annie.
Speaker 1: You can see where you're going with the diversification from
Speaker 1: everything from talent man management to trying to wrap your
Speaker 1: arms around the world of social media creators. Let me
Speaker 1: just ask you some of the same questions I just
Speaker 1: asked you about content these days. Where's the sweet spot
Speaker 1: for making money in the business of representing social media creators.
Speaker 2: There's really two big lifts, but three if you include
Speaker 2: some of the success we've had migrating some of that
Speaker 2: talent into mainstream TV and streaming. But it's a series
Speaker 2: of you know, micro transactions going on all year long
Speaker 2: where they're selling advertising basically to people who want to
Speaker 2: connect directly to an audience through an influencer or you know,
Speaker 2: marketing person, and so that's a sequence of revenue that
Speaker 2: just continues to grow. As people look to invest in
Speaker 2: social media, they like to invest through authentic voices that
Speaker 2: can communicate. So we have, you know, a large pool
Speaker 2: of those kind of people that you can talk to
Speaker 2: an audience and consumer directly. And if you're a beverage company,
Speaker 2: a tea company, a haircare company, a fitness brand, you
Speaker 2: can utilize those influencers and pay them to do that,
Speaker 2: and they are basically monetizing their access and their authenticity
Speaker 2: to connect to their audience and consumer. So that's one bucket.
Speaker 1: And let me just ask you like those numbers. I know,
Speaker 1: you know years ago it was there was sort of
Speaker 1: a scale for people and it was, you know, four
Speaker 1: figures and five figures. But these numbers are a lot
Speaker 1: bigger nowadays.
Speaker 2: Correct, The numbers are growing as the migration of audience
Speaker 2: is not watching and I'm sure you know the stat's
Speaker 2: eight hours of television, they're on six hours of social
Speaker 2: and four hours of television because a lot of it
Speaker 2: is dual happening at the same time. And so you're
Speaker 2: watching these numbers shift. You're watching them shift even more
Speaker 2: aggressively demographic based. You know, a seventy year old is
Speaker 2: actually also on social, but no near as much as
Speaker 2: a twenty year old, And so you're watching this massive
Speaker 2: demographic utility shift. So as the audience moves and the
Speaker 2: consumer moves, so too does the advertiser. And this is
Speaker 2: a perfect means to connect directly with consumer and directly
Speaker 2: with audience in an authentic way. So those numbers grow.
Speaker 2: The numbers grow as the influencer and talent communicates to
Speaker 2: a larger group of people. And it grows just in
Speaker 2: how we are using those services and those platforms with
Speaker 2: more and more time and attention.
Speaker 1: Then can I just ask you, is that a ten
Speaker 1: percent business or is that structured all kinds of different ways.
Speaker 2: It's a little higher because the work is so much
Speaker 2: work because you're not doing like necessarily one brand deal
Speaker 2: for the whole year. Some of these some of these
Speaker 2: are fifty to one hundred deals per per influencer happening
Speaker 2: over the course of the year. It is so much
Speaker 2: work for those manager salespeople like their managers growing their
Speaker 2: careers and advising, and then they're also out there literally
Speaker 2: selling these clients. So it's like these two roles in one.
Speaker 2: So it warrants a larger piece because it's really hard
Speaker 2: to do and it takes a ton of work. We
Speaker 2: also can migrate some of the ones who have ambition
Speaker 2: for being in a TV show or movie to another
Speaker 2: medium through our network and relationships. So the select team
Speaker 2: identified the Mormon wives and that's become a massive hit
Speaker 2: for them that they're now producing. We place Georgia Berger,
Speaker 2: one of our executives who we trained to propagate, was
Speaker 2: a former assistant a nine years ago and knew the
Speaker 2: television and entertainment set. We put her inside Select and
Speaker 2: so she's there working with Lisa and the team there
Speaker 2: to kind of mine opportunities from their clients also to
Speaker 2: migrate them to television, and then it becomes a great
Speaker 2: flywheel all of the Kardashians where they're social grows, their
Speaker 2: television growth and advertiser and brand interest grows. Then another
Speaker 2: lane for that world is that we're also able to
Speaker 2: develop out actual brands with those clients. Like Mindy McKnight,
Speaker 2: who's represented there, has a hair product business called Heritage
Speaker 2: that does incredibly well inside Walmart. So you have this
Speaker 2: little kind of almost venture world going on, and you've
Speaker 2: seen it with so many celebrities, but these influencers really
Speaker 2: doing it organically and directly with their consumer building out
Speaker 2: actual brands as well directly. So we have a credible
Speaker 2: barbecue company with Anthony Anderson and Cedric the entertainer. On
Speaker 2: the more traditional entertainment side. The opportunity to unlock that
Speaker 2: opportunity is big. So you can feed a television show,
Speaker 2: you can run these micro transactions and keep the lights
Speaker 2: on and grow their businesses and help and keep them
Speaker 2: fed and raising their families, and then you can have
Speaker 2: these upsides into this brand creation where where there's interest,
Speaker 2: engagement and organic authentic opportunity. So I really like that business.
Speaker 1: Does Propagate have a piece of that company or does
Speaker 1: Propagate benefit from the client has more revenue coming in
Speaker 1: and you commission that revenue.
Speaker 2: All different, so some we invest in, some we build,
Speaker 2: some we incubate, some we just commission. So it's a
Speaker 2: range of opportunities that we look to with the clients
Speaker 2: whatever they want or whatever help they need. Some of
Speaker 2: them we have to actually build. Sometimes we bring the
Speaker 2: idea to the client and co invest or sometimes we
Speaker 2: just help source the opportunity from an investment on the outside,
Speaker 2: or maybe they need somebody who can merchandise or somebody
Speaker 2: who can build it, or someone who can manufacture it.
Speaker 2: So it's all different. Some of them are pure commission
Speaker 2: based based tied to the revenue that comes out of
Speaker 2: what our managers help advise them to accomplish. And then
Speaker 2: others are ones where we've actually come up with the
Speaker 2: idea packaged in the talent, invest it along and built
Speaker 2: it with them so that they there's a range to it,
Speaker 2: just like a kind of it's like a mini venture
Speaker 2: portfolio of different structures inside the company. Now I have
Speaker 2: a whole thesis about our entire business that was from
Speaker 2: the start of the day we opened it. That's only
Speaker 2: which is where content creates culture comes commerce, And is
Speaker 2: that content the influencer? Is that content the TV show?
Speaker 2: But where we're driving culture drives commerce, and that is
Speaker 2: an amazing opportunity that's been unlocked through the technological transformation
Speaker 2: of how the Internet allows us to talk one to one,
Speaker 2: one to many.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some shows. You're wearing a stick hat.
Speaker 1: Let's use stick microcosm example. First of all, what made
Speaker 1: you say yes to pursuing this? And tell me about
Speaker 1: sort of the evolution of stick and why it makes
Speaker 1: sense for Propagate to do this show.
Speaker 2: Well, whenever I'm talking to a real estate developer or
Speaker 2: venture capitalist or private equity investor, I always do explain
Speaker 2: that our world is actually very similar and one really
Speaker 2: clear cut way. Each one of our shows, as you
Speaker 2: point out, is its own business, with its own CEO
Speaker 2: and its own staff. You know, so you work with
Speaker 2: it a creator like I have had the privilege of
Speaker 2: working with Jason Keller on this. You ID eight and
Speaker 2: create together and build out a pitch and a process
Speaker 2: to go take it to market to get somebody. And
Speaker 2: in this case, I was wildly passionate about it because
Speaker 2: I loved Jason's work and had worked on a couple
Speaker 2: shows prior to it with him that we had developed
Speaker 2: but not gotten produced, but also loved the idea of
Speaker 2: doing an emotionally grounded comedy and a lot of it's
Speaker 2: inspired by his own father. And then we end up
Speaker 2: pitching it out. Apple is very interested in it. They
Speaker 2: end up investing in the script, which is like the
Speaker 2: kind of first phase of their venture investment. We get
Speaker 2: the script written, and now we need to get a
Speaker 2: kind of bible and series arec written because they like
Speaker 2: the script enough so they have Jason do that, and
Speaker 2: then who is going to be stick? And that becomes
Speaker 2: the entire next step of the process, which is, we
Speaker 2: have material, We have an opportunity because everyone's liked the material,
Speaker 2: Now can we get somebody to come in and be
Speaker 2: our star? And Owen Wilson was who we wanted to
Speaker 2: do this, and he had never done TV like this
Speaker 2: before in his whole career. We felt it was like
Speaker 2: a huge exciting get but also a role that he
Speaker 2: would just do so well and bring so much of
Speaker 2: his incredible talent to and so we were able to
Speaker 2: get Owen excited. Then we write the rest of the
Speaker 2: episodes and build the writer's room and start hiring more
Speaker 2: creative people. Then we bring in our production designers and
Speaker 2: production scouts and start figuring out where we're going to
Speaker 2: shoot it. Then we have our producers and our physical
Speaker 2: producers here are going to make sure that we know
Speaker 2: how to pay for it and can execute it. And
Speaker 2: so you're sitting there with the show center kind of
Speaker 2: overseeing this now growing army of executives and people working
Speaker 2: on this series that you started with one other person
Speaker 2: and now has expanded to one hundred and fifty other people,
Speaker 2: not even including you know, extras and you know film
Speaker 2: production and TV production elements. And that's kind of the process,
Speaker 2: and it's a complicated one. It's an intense one. Any
Speaker 2: piece of it goes wrong and it falls off the rails,
Speaker 2: and any element that you bring in can disrupt and
Speaker 2: break it. You cast the wrong person, you hire the
Speaker 2: wrong directors, you bring in the wrong DP. You know,
Speaker 2: there's so many of those roles that have to mesh
Speaker 2: perfectly to build out something. And I want to say
Speaker 2: one thing. Both Jason and Owen, though are player coaches,
Speaker 2: they were both the kind of people who knew how
Speaker 2: to communicate, articulate, lead by example, show up first, leave last,
Speaker 2: and then you kind of people follow you in line.
Speaker 1: What does a home run for Stick look like for you?
Speaker 1: On Apple?
Speaker 2: I believe that show is award worthy. I think that
Speaker 2: Owen's performance is singular and superlative as well as the writing.
Speaker 2: So I truly believe that that show should be able
Speaker 2: to be validated in an award circle. But I also
Speaker 2: see it as a four quadrant show. It's a show
Speaker 2: that has aspirational and warmth to it that I think
Speaker 2: it can find a big audience inside the Apple sphere,
Speaker 2: and so I think it could be measured by success
Speaker 2: in how it does with its cohorts Apple, and I
Speaker 2: think it can be further validated with its with its
Speaker 2: potential like ted Lasso had in actually getting accolades from
Speaker 2: the Globes or the MS.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about ninety minuto. So you've got
Speaker 1: a Spanish language comedy coming to Peacock may twenty second.
Speaker 1: Tell me about that.
Speaker 2: So we developed this early on when there was a
Speaker 2: just different strategy at the platform where T Plus was
Speaker 2: kind of going to be its own thing.
Speaker 1: That ended up Telemundo, the Nbcundo Spanish language network.
Speaker 2: Yes, was going to kind of do its own kind
Speaker 2: of premium Spanish language work, just like kind of Vix
Speaker 2: was going to do with television continues to do and
Speaker 2: so now it's shifted to Telemundo. But we love Spanish
Speaker 2: language content. We've had great success in doing English language
Speaker 2: US Hispanic content like Jane the Virgin and Ugly Betty.
Speaker 2: We've got a big Latin division and focus a lot
Speaker 2: of time and energy on it. I really enjoy collaborating
Speaker 2: with brilliant Latin storytellers, writers, creators, actors, actresses, and this
Speaker 2: came out of that and is a really strong comedy
Speaker 2: set in the world of soccer. That's the ninety minutes part,
Speaker 2: and I think could break out into something that the
Speaker 2: English language audience would also watch because we're seeing barriers drop.
Speaker 1: Anything else, And you'd like to mention.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I'm super excited about on
Speaker 2: the twentieth anniversary of the Office is that we'll be
Speaker 2: launching a new show in the Office universe called The
Speaker 2: Paper with Peacock, which I'm really excited for and I
Speaker 2: think as long as the modern audience can show the
Speaker 2: same patients it showed and twenty years ago. It is
Speaker 2: an extraordinary cast and brilliantly realized comedic series that I
Speaker 2: think people are going to just love and has all
Speaker 2: the heart and energy and warmth that the original had,
Speaker 2: plus actors and actresses that you didn't know before.
Speaker 1: Do you have a timetable for that?
Speaker 2: They will announce hopefully this upfront, which you'd give you
Speaker 2: an indication, but it'll it should be on before It'll
Speaker 2: be twenty five, so which will be great. And I
Speaker 2: can't wait because it's so fun and I think people
Speaker 2: are going to love it. And then beyond that, we
Speaker 2: got a Jerry West documentary being directed by Kenya Barriss.
Speaker 2: Wh've got this great untold franchise, and we've got Sam
Speaker 2: bankmin Free being directed by the net First team who
Speaker 2: did Kids Stays in the Picture and it's such a
Speaker 2: wonderful and they Elizabeth Taylor and I such a wonderful
Speaker 2: filmmaking collaborative of ours. So a lot of really good
Speaker 2: stuff coming out to propagate across genre, across platform. I'm
Speaker 2: excited for all our talent to shine.
Speaker 1: Ben. Thank you for this very candid conversation. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Let me wind up with just a couple of fast
Speaker 1: ones here. You've mentioned the office and ugly Betty and tutors.
Speaker 1: That was when you were running a company called Revelly,
Speaker 1: when you got hired by a little company called NBC
Speaker 1: Universal and you sold that company. Do you regret selling? Really?
Speaker 2: I not only regret selling Revely. My children don't even
Speaker 2: realize how much I regret selling it. At the time,
Speaker 2: people thought I sold it for a lot of money,
Speaker 2: but they had no idea what was inside that company.
Speaker 2: It could have been paid back with a quarter of
Speaker 2: the office, and I really do regret it. We were
Speaker 2: just so ahead. I would have turned that company into
Speaker 2: something extraordinary. Could have used it in the same way
Speaker 2: that like David Ellison's using sky Dance and maybe ended
Speaker 2: up owning Paramount. So I do regret it. But I
Speaker 2: also learned so much at NBCUniversal and met so many
Speaker 2: different kinds of people that I don't think I necessarily
Speaker 2: would have met through the journey had I just stuck
Speaker 2: with Revely.
Speaker 1: Was there a world where you could have structured it differently.
Speaker 2: I put it into a blind trust. I did everything
Speaker 2: I was supposed to do, even though when I had
Speaker 2: conceived of the deal my plan was to step back
Speaker 2: into it. I was made to sell it, really sold
Speaker 2: it on a phone call. I never marketed it, took
Speaker 2: it out, didn't do anything. I didn't even understand values.
Speaker 2: And then I discovered later that it was purchased by
Speaker 2: somebody who just used a bank to buy it for
Speaker 2: them through the projections of the business, which I hadn't
Speaker 2: even done. So it absolutely was a lot of naevite
Speaker 2: on my side, and I should have held stronger.
Speaker 1: Is there any world where you would still be on
Speaker 1: the executive track?
Speaker 2: No? I quit that job because it gave me a
Speaker 2: stomach ache. I need to be free and run free
Speaker 2: and control of my own destiny. And I also I
Speaker 2: really don't like I didn't like being inside an organization,
Speaker 2: any organization where I was limited in following through on
Speaker 2: creativity that may have turned me on. Like I love
Speaker 2: that I could make a food show for the Food Network.
Speaker 2: I could make a great comedy for Apple. I could
Speaker 2: do all documentary for Netflix and Amazon. I like the
Speaker 2: diversity of content. I'm able to pursue un filtered, and
Speaker 2: I got frustrated that I had to conform to like
Speaker 2: certain buckets of kind of content were the only ones
Speaker 2: at that time that the network made, or if I
Speaker 2: migrated to a different place than someone else made, you know,
Speaker 2: and I don't think I have ted Surandus's stamina to
Speaker 2: just to work twenty four hours a day, like inside
Speaker 2: that kind of business from that perspective where you kind
Speaker 2: of end up having to become almost a political figure,
Speaker 2: not just a creative figure or an entrepreneurial figure. So
Speaker 2: I am definitely made the right choice to leave there.
Speaker 2: I made the wrong choice to sell Ben.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for going through all this. Really
Speaker 1: appreciate your caming.
Speaker 2: Be continued, Cynthia anytime now for the treat that I
Speaker 2: promised you at the start of this episode.
Speaker 1: My friend Bill Prady reached out to me the other
Speaker 1: day with a memory he wanted to share. As soon
Speaker 1: as he started talking, I knew I wanted him to
Speaker 1: record it for strictly business. Bill is a veteran comedy
Speaker 1: writer and co creator of a show that is always
Speaker 1: airing somewhere in the world, The Big Bang Theory. Many
Speaker 1: years before Bill brought us, Sheldon and Leonard in the Gang.
Speaker 1: He got his start working as a writer for Jim Henson.
Speaker 1: That's all you need to know to appreciate this story.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't hurt if you remember nineteen eighty seven. Enjoy.
Speaker 3: This is Bill Prady, and this is a memory I
Speaker 3: wanted to share with you. On November sixth, nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 3: after a devastating stock market crash, the Muppets appeared on
Speaker 3: a special town hall edition of ABC's Nightline in segments
Speaker 3: designed to explain the financial system. I wrote those segments,
Speaker 3: and I hadn't thought about them in years until John
Speaker 3: Oliver aired one of them recently on Last Week Tonight.
Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty seven, I had my first professional job
Speaker 3: as a writer. I was a computer programmer when I
Speaker 3: dropped out of college and moved to New York. But
Speaker 3: a series of the kind of decisions you make in
Speaker 3: your twenties had landed me at the Muppets. I was
Speaker 3: a production assistant that I worked in the licensing department,
Speaker 3: and then I became a staff writer with a portfolio
Speaker 3: of miscellany funny box copy for the Swedish chef Cerial
Speaker 3: that was me dial a muppet sketches me a statement
Speaker 3: to the press from Miss Piggy Me. One of the
Speaker 3: things I certainly wasn't focused on as a twenty seven
Speaker 3: year old writing for A Frog and a Pig was
Speaker 3: the stock market. On October nineteenth, nineteen eighty seven, the
Speaker 3: US stock market crashed. The Dow fell twenty three percent,
Speaker 3: wreaking havoc on the economy. Ted Kopple, the host of
Speaker 3: ABC's Nightline, began production on a special to look at
Speaker 3: the crisis in depth. Realizing that an understanding of some
Speaker 3: of the basics was essential, he wondered if the Muppets
Speaker 3: would be available to handle the task. I have two
Speaker 3: favorite parts of this story. The first is the phone
Speaker 3: call between Ted Copple and Jim Henson. If you weren't there,
Speaker 3: I should let you know that nineteen eighty seven was
Speaker 3: a fairly primitive time. We hadn't yet started to walk
Speaker 3: around with the Internet in our pockets. Jim's office got
Speaker 3: a message that Copple wanted to speak to him, but
Speaker 3: Jim wasn't going to be reachable. That day. We were
Speaker 3: shooting public service announcements for the National Wildlife Federation on
Speaker 3: location in Central Park. ABC told Jim's office that that
Speaker 3: wouldn't be a problem. They would send a mobile phone
Speaker 3: into Central Park. Sure enough, in the middle of that afternoon,
Speaker 3: a production assistant from ABC found us in the woods
Speaker 3: off the Great Lawn. He opened up a large aluminum briefcase,
Speaker 3: extended an antenna, and moments later the thing rang While
Speaker 3: we watched in awe Like the Apes in two thousand
Speaker 3: and one, a Space Odyssey, Copple explained to Jim what
Speaker 3: he wanted, short funny bits explaining basic terms like bull market,
Speaker 3: bear market, margin, call, contrarian, etc. Jim turned to me,
Speaker 3: you got this. I got this, I said. The next day,
Speaker 3: I was off to the New York Public Library to
Speaker 3: learn about the stock market again. It was nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty seven, Wikipedia was a building you went
Speaker 3: to filled with books and people. I'd been told that
Speaker 3: Jim and Frank Oz would perform the pieces, so I
Speaker 3: wrote them for their characters. Jim would perform Kermit and
Speaker 3: Roff the Dog. Frank would perform Fozzy Bear, Miss Piggy,
Speaker 3: and a few others. The pieces were short and as
Speaker 3: funny as I could make them. While conveying the content,
Speaker 3: we headed over to ABC News Headquarters on West sixty
Speaker 3: sixth Street to shoot. Our set department had built a
Speaker 3: miniature version of then anchor Peter Jennings's desk, and the
Speaker 3: Puppet Workshop dressed Kermit in a smart Newsy blue blazer.
Speaker 3: As we walked in, Jim remarked that the studio we
Speaker 3: were in, ABC Studio One, had been the home of
Speaker 3: The Jimmy Dean Show, airing from nineteen sixty three to
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty six. The Jimmy Dean Show featured Jim's puppet Rolf.
Speaker 3: It was the first regular network appearance of a Muppet character.
Speaker 3: The studio wasn't ideal for shooting puppets. Although we had
Speaker 3: a desk in the correct scale, there really wasn't a
Speaker 3: good setup for the puppeteers. Jim and Frank had to
Speaker 3: wedge themselves uncomfortably under and behind it. We worked as
Speaker 3: quickly as we could. Fozzy Bear explained bear markets, and
Speaker 3: Miss Picky took umbrage at Ted Copple's commodities question about
Speaker 3: pork bellies. A grumpy old puppet identified himself as a
Speaker 3: contrarian and then proceeded to disagree with everyone. Ralf smashed
Speaker 3: apples to illustrate the market takes a beating, and then
Speaker 3: a camera broke, and that led to my second favorite
Speaker 3: part of this story. Because they were wedged in, Jim
Speaker 3: and Frank stayed in place while a technician worked to
Speaker 3: the camera back to life. To stay loose, they did
Speaker 3: what puppeteers often do between takes. They kept the puppets
Speaker 3: up and alive. Jim had Rolf the dog on his arm,
Speaker 3: and Frank was puppeteering Sam Eagle. Rolf looked around, you know,
Speaker 3: he began in his rough canine growl. We used to
Speaker 3: shoot the old Jimmy Dean show. Here, Sam Eagle put
Speaker 3: his wing to his head and feigned exhaustion. Oh hell,
Speaker 3: he said, here come the Jimmy Dean stories. And then
Speaker 3: the most amazing piece of improve ensued. When you think
Speaker 3: about Kermit and Peggy, or Ralf and Pozzi, you forget
Speaker 3: that they were brought to life by one of the
Speaker 3: greatest comedy teams ever, Jim Henson and Frank Oz. There
Speaker 3: in ABC Studio one. Frank Sam began the piece, inventing
Speaker 3: a story he'd heard from Rolf for years. Jim's Ralph
Speaker 3: repeated what Sam said, but he did it like he
Speaker 3: wasn't listening, like a needle had just dropped into a groove.
Speaker 3: I was just a little pulp, said Sam mockingly. I
Speaker 3: was just a little pup, began Ralph. Looking for my
Speaker 3: first break, moans Sam. Looking for my first break, said
Speaker 3: Ralph brightly. So I wandered in off the streets of
Speaker 3: New York. So I wandered in off the streets of
Speaker 3: New York through an open door, side Sam, through an
Speaker 3: open door, continued Ralph. And so, with friend leading and
Speaker 3: Jim pretending not to follow, we heard the story of
Speaker 3: a dog breaking into TV. The ABC News team, who
Speaker 3: had largely been ignoring us, stopped working and drifted over
Speaker 3: to watch the bird and the dog continued. The director
Speaker 3: sidled up to the camera technician and asked when it
Speaker 3: would be fixed. Oh, we've been ready for a while,
Speaker 3: the fellow said, I just didn't want to stop the show. Nowadays,
Speaker 3: if something amazing and magical happened like an American eagle
Speaker 3: exhaustedly sitting through the reminiscences of his dog friend, there
Speaker 3: would be iPhone videos from twenty different angles posted all
Speaker 3: over the Internet. But in a world where portable phones
Speaker 3: come in aluminum briefcases that moment only exists in the
Speaker 3: memories of the people who were there. Thanks John Oliver
Speaker 3: for unburying this one and bringing it to mine.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
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