WEBVTT - How to Make Money with Content: A Ben Silverman Explainer 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:12.280 Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:16.120 industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.360 Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:24.960 guest is Ben Silverman, chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.960 It's not an exaggeration to say that Ben helped shape 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.840 the modern TV business, and in this episode we drill 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.559 down deep into how an independent production venture such as 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:44.640 Propagate makes money. Coin Moolah, Cheddar Greenbacks, dead Presidents. We 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.919 are talking about money. How do companies like Propagate prosper 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.360 Ben goes there happily, and that's one of the reasons 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.280 why I've enjoyed covering him over the years. Propagate is 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:01.600 busy in TV and film. It has talent management interests 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.839 and is increasingly active in managing and setting up brand 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:10.679 partnerships for social media creators. Rewind the tape about twenty 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.440 five years. Ben was a savvy William Morris agent who 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.800 helped producer Michael Davies bring who Wants to Be a 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:22.959 Millionaire to America, saving ABC in the process. He did 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.600 a lot of very creative deals and was ahead of 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.920 the curve in working with brands to help finance content. 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.680 In the natural way of these things, Ben eventually lit 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.559 out of the ten percentary world to launch his own 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:42.679 production banner, Reavely. That company yielded such shows as The Office, 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.040 Ugly Betty and The Tutors. We talk about what happened 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.160 with Revey years ago as we go through the twists 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.840 and turns of the journey that led Ben to Propagate Content, 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:56.680 and of course we talk a little bit about those 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:01.280 two momentous years two thousand and seven Towan when Ben 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:06.640 ran programming for NBC. After the conversation with Ben, please 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.679 stay tuned for a real treat from my friend writ 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.720 or Bill Prady. Bill was watching John Oliver on Last 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.960 Week Tonight the other day and a very meaningful moment 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.680 from his past came up totally out of the blue. 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:24.400 It inspired Bill to revisit one of those one of 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.920 a kind eyewitness to history experiences that you're lucky to 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.320 have if you're lucky enough to work in show business. 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:45.040 That's all coming up after this break, and we're back 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:50.520 with my conversation with Ben Silverman of Propagate Content. Ben Silverman, 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.520 chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content. Thanks for joining me. 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.640 Absolutely, Cynthia, great to see you. 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.480 You are about ten years now into the gate you 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.040 launched it in early twenty fifteen. I want to talk 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:05.720 about the different strands of your business, the content production, 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.680 the social media management that you're getting into, your different investments. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:14.000 But let's start at the core business of producing TV 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.560 and film and documentary content. You do a wide range 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.680 of genres. Where are your biggest opportunities to make money? 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.160 Right now? How does Propagate make money? 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.760 Well? I always felt like, you know, the hits find 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:34.880 money and success creates opportunity. I do see there are 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:38.160 places we can take risk. So we have a partnership 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:43.800 in our documentary business called Buttermilk that actually has a 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:48.840 funding source that we utilize to invest in documentaries, and 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.160 there we can look at okay, we are fully funding 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:56.800 this documentary, like our upcoming Boy George Culture Club documentary, 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:01.000 which will be premiering at Tribeca June fifth, is a 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.720 film that now through that premiere process, could be sold 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.280 to the highest bidder. It doesn't just get consumed by 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.120 a platform and they dictate the terms. It's something that 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.480 can create a competitive subset around that piece of property. 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.159 Because we invested in it because we made it and 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.040 took that risk. There should be more of a reward 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.520 and better economic terms associated with So we've built a 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.880 slate of extraordinary documentaries that we do that way, and 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.360 those have some arbitrage and upside in the financial part 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.560 of those films happening and risk because if they don't 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.200 get one hundred percent return on their investment, are our 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.760 partner and investor and we lose money. And so it's 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.520 you know, it's risk taking, but it's risk taking I 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:50.159 think on a measured and smart scale because documentaries don't 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.120 cost as much as episodes of Game of Thrones, so 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.080 it makes it an easier bet for an independent company. 0:04:58.480 --> 0:04:59.680 Then on the other side. 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.880 Let me stop you there and say is it licensing? 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.159 Is it the pure licensing fees? Is there any other 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.320 model other than you produce a film and you license 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.839 it to a streamer, you put it in the box office. 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.040 Are the brands coming into this business? I'm pressing you 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:16.200 on how you make money? 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.400 So inside that business you can go to all those lanes. 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.359 We could choose to theatrically distribute it through partners and 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:28.640 then window it and then control the actual ip and 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.840 copyright on it because we fully funded it, and so 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.440 that we're licensing it for maybe a term, you know, 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.520 three years, five years, two years, and licensing it through 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:41.760 our own international distribution group around the world, and then 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:47.600 building cycles of revenue and windows and library value. Where 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:52.600 I think documentaries were considered more disposable years ago, they're 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.320 now showing real staying power in their actual terminal value 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.960 and residual value. And as we have these hyper competitive 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:05.480 streamers playing cops and robbers with each other, there's this 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:10.800 opportunity to potentially license that content as they set up 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.839 walls between themselves and how they buy content or produce 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.720 content and build those kind of vertically integrated platforms, So 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.000 that becomes an opportunity and a way to make money. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.719 Another way is to build out premium content that you 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:30.559 just produce for a fee with upside if it gets 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.160 picked up for multiple seasons in the streaming world. And 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.599 that shows like our upcoming stick which we're making for Apple, 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.720 Lulu the Rhinoceros, the kids show we're making for Apple, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:41.520 which comes out in May twenty ninth, that comes out 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.520 June fourth, starring Owen Wilson, set in the golf world, 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.520 and then those are just about can we get longevity. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.719 Can we build in a bonus based fee structure that 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.159 if we hit a season three, four or five, we're 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.320 getting some back ends that kind of kick in, even 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.279 though those shows are likely to only remain within the 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:07.200 Apple ecosystem, there are incentives for us to obviously deliver 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.760 the most premium content possible, but also bonuses and revenue. 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.400 They don't look like or compared to having an off 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:20.320 network syndicated monster, but they do provide upside and cash. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.840 And you're taking only development and executive risk, you're not 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.200 taking physical production risks. Then there are shows like the 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.520 one we're making. We have a show that should be 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:36.920 announced soon for Fox Broadcasting where it's a real upside opportunity. Right, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.200 we make a fee on that show that will air 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.480 on Fox, and Fox likely will be the studio partner 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.440 as well on it, but they will license it around 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.840 the world to maximize revenue everywhere they can. They will 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:53.600 look to license and maximize revenue as well within the 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:58.400 North American windows off of Fox Broadcasting. And so then 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.600 suddenly you have a real chance for economic upside and 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:07.880 value creation beyond just the first run of that show. 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:09.720 And if you get to that place where you get 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.720 success in multiple episodes, there's a chance to sell it 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:18.480 around the world to different buyers and make significant back ends. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:21.559 Then we also continue to do reality television and where 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:29.480 those shows have international format potential or opportunities to kind 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.840 of integrate or build businesses connected to them, I think 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:37.400 are great chances for us to make money as well. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.319 And across that whole group of content, we continue, as 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.760 you know, we always have to work with advertisers. So 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.200 can we light up a little more revenue with an 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.920 advertising partner? Can we light up more revenue with a 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.040 merchandising opportunity? Right stick is set in the world of golf. 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:55.840 There's so many people interested in golf and being connected 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.240 to the golf consumer, and there are so many opportunities 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:04.320 for golf actual merchandising opportunities. Can we unlock that. Lulua 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.880 the Rhinoceros is a kid's show, can we unlock the 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:12.160 value that based on a book that comes with a 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.440 animated show, or the voice of that show is the 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.880 young woman who is Mawana and you know, so there's 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.480 a music soundtrack in that show. Can we unlock value 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.760 in that participation? So all of those piece of content 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:32.959 have different versions of financial return. None of them today 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:37.200 other than probably the broadcasting one or the animated one, 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.800 have like the kind of massive potential upside that we 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.880 had making TV shows in the nineties and odds. 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.760 So now to get to that sort of scale that 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.320 you need, you really do need a certain volume. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:53.120 You need a volume, and you need chips on the 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.320 table and bets, and you need to think through as 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.440 smartly as you can. Whatevery deal looks like for where 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.319 that upside lies. Right In an animated show, the upside 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:04.040 lies and merchandising and soundtrack. 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:04.360 In a. 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.440 Reality show, it's format and advertising dollars. You have to 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.959 look at them all around. Where is the value creation opportunity? 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.839 And the fact is the streamers have kind of shut 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.960 their walls a little bit, so it's hard to exploit 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:21.360 outside of the platforms. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.040 In a case like your animated show, Do you own that? 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.839 Because it was based on a book that we partnered on. 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.400 Apple owns all of the television show, but we are 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.760 partners in the merchandising and the soundtrack, and so it's 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.560 thinking through things as you enter those deals based on 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.199 how powerful is the underlying ip in that case it's 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.160 based on a book called Little of the Rhinoceros that 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.000 was a bestseller and pre existed, and the writers of 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:49.080 that book, who also helped adapt the show, as the 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.680 writers of the script. You know, we're very clear we 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.239 have value here. And so that that was a negotiation 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.120 where both sides participate, both sides of upside and you 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:04.440 could sass be making Little Lulu stuffies and T shirts 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:06.880 and soundtracks and all that that goes with a big 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:11.240 animated hit and then and then with some of these others, 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.720 there may be less merchandising opportunity like a documentary, but 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.360 there may be upside an opportunity and that you financed 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.679 it and can actually own the IP. And what we're seeing, 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.040 like with some of our untold franchise that we make 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:28.600 for Netflix, is real opportunity to actually exploit the doc 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.240 ep the way you would have exploited the non fiction book. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.679 So we're turning our film about the Dan Barry Thrashers 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.800 crimes and penalties into a movie with Netflix. We're working 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.560 on a film based on our Johnny Manziel documentary Johnny 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.440 Football that we made for Netflix. So and have a 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.679 major movie star attached. So you're able to kind of 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:54.120 build those into IP, their self funding IP and with 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.640 a little profit. But then there's this greater upside down 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.640 the road because you've actually got a piece of IP 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.720 that can translate the way that nonfiction books did fifteen 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:05.720 twenty years ago. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.560 In the span of Propagate. All of what you just 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.920 discussed is very much how business is done in twenty 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.880 twenty five, but very different to how was done. What's 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:17.880 it been like to kind of have this perch and 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:23.360 watch the content business both explode in size and global scope, 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.280 but also now in the last couple of years post strike, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.840 it's also contracting well. 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:34.760 I think for us, we've been consciously diversified, always entrepreneurial, creative, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.840 lad and we have not burned money like so many 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.880 of our peers who when this system kind of retracted 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.719 a little bit, they were forced into mergers, they were 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.280 forced into sales, they were forced into bankruptcies, you know. 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.120 And so we have been able to remain profitable and 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:58.000 self sustaining after a lyft from our initial investors at 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.800 A and E and RAIN, And that obviously is a 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.959 differentiation to who we are and our independence, but it's 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.360 also because we've invested across genre. We were never genre 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:13.320 specific when I started in the nineties to age myself, like, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.199 you know, no one you were a game show producer, 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.680 you were a documentary producer, you were a sitcom producer. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.760 It was very rigid. It was very rigid, and. 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:26.120 I broke all those walls down right. I was doing 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.840 my first eighteen months of my first company. I was 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:34.040 doing the Tutors, The Biggest Loser, Ugly Betty, and the Office. 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.360 There was no pigeonholing, you know what we did. And 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.640 so I think that was very valuable for us inside 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.320 our business. And Howard Owens and Drew Buckley, who've worked 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.839 with me for a long time, are of that same 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:51.040 mold and model, and so we had a lot of 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.200 ability to work across multiple genres and a lot of 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.800 relationships that we could manifest into great content in multiple genres. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.599 So I think that's very valuable because when you have 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.880 a strike, you can make a reality show when you 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.360 have when you have a downturn in one side of 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.160 the business, you're able to produce more efficiently in the other. 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.520 When you when you have documentaries as a passion and 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.800 then it explodes into a business, you're sitting there in 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:18.839 a first driver's seat because you made the nine to 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.360 eleven with the Nowadays who we've now done in nine 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.720 films with, and you have worked with the net first 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.400 scene on Hillary and now she's doing our Sam Banking Free. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:31.120 You've you we represented Kenya Barris through Artists First and 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:33.240 we're able to put him into our Jerry West documentary. 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.479 So you're able to really do things, I think uniquely 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.720 that come from the diversity of content we produce in 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.240 our and are turned on by. 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.920 At what point did you hit the break even mark? 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.080 Like how many years in did you get to the 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.880 point where you could take a breath and like, you know, 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:51.600 see that revenue was coming in. 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:58.480 We really used capital to acquire businesses, specifically investments in 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:05.120 Artists First and Authentic and Select the management companies and Electis, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.520 which was my old company that produced Chopped and actually 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:14.280 had investments in those companies. And so we really use 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:19.520 the capital to create the acquisitions that led to us 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.880 being profitable and break even. And that was how we 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:30.080 used the capital as opposed to just funding content or 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:36.040 development or executives. And we've had expansion retrenchment, expansion retrenchment 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:40.640 and a lot of that happened with the marketplace transformation 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:45.160 as you mentioned, between Strike and then you know, just 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.320 the retrenchment and then the challenges that a lot of 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.000 the players have had from Paramount to Max and beyond 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:57.680 to continue to invest. And I'm really hopeful that new 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:03.240 investment will arrive as we see companies like Paramount figure 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.600 themselves out. When this merger is finally done, I think 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.720 that's going to be a big stimulus into the industry. 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.120 I think what NBC Universal is doing and spinning out 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.840 under Mark Lazarus, this new cable company as a pure 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.280 play and then having Peacock in the studio be more 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.040 pure played, like, I think that's going to unlock opportunity. 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.720 So I see some moves on the horizon that will 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:29.760 unlock opportunity. And I see the reorganization at Amazon unlocking 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:34.720 much smarter, better investment. And I see the Apple you 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.800 know shows being so good that I think they'll continue 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:43.040 to look to deliver on the promise of these great 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:44.480 shows that they're making right now. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.280 Are A and E Networks and Rain are they still 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:48.640 in as investors? 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.960 They are. They are both investors in the company, and 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.960 we do a lot of content with Annie. 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.000 You can see where you're going with the diversification from 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.560 everything from talent man management to trying to wrap your 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.240 arms around the world of social media creators. Let me 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:06.919 just ask you some of the same questions I just 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.879 asked you about content these days. Where's the sweet spot 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:14.360 for making money in the business of representing social media creators. 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:20.760 There's really two big lifts, but three if you include 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:22.960 some of the success we've had migrating some of that 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:29.159 talent into mainstream TV and streaming. But it's a series 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.679 of you know, micro transactions going on all year long 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:38.119 where they're selling advertising basically to people who want to 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.320 connect directly to an audience through an influencer or you know, 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:47.280 marketing person, and so that's a sequence of revenue that 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:51.440 just continues to grow. As people look to invest in 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.399 social media, they like to invest through authentic voices that 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.119 can communicate. So we have, you know, a large pool 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.119 of those kind of people that you can talk to 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:07.040 an audience and consumer directly. And if you're a beverage company, 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.399 a tea company, a haircare company, a fitness brand, you 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.360 can utilize those influencers and pay them to do that, 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.879 and they are basically monetizing their access and their authenticity 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.880 to connect to their audience and consumer. So that's one bucket. 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.239 And let me just ask you like those numbers. I know, 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:27.439 you know years ago it was there was sort of 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:29.880 a scale for people and it was, you know, four 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.480 figures and five figures. But these numbers are a lot 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:33.719 bigger nowadays. 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:38.639 Correct, The numbers are growing as the migration of audience 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.639 is not watching and I'm sure you know the stat's 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.120 eight hours of television, they're on six hours of social 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:47.879 and four hours of television because a lot of it 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.680 is dual happening at the same time. And so you're 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.520 watching these numbers shift. You're watching them shift even more 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:58.280 aggressively demographic based. You know, a seventy year old is 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.280 actually also on social, but no near as much as 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:03.280 a twenty year old, And so you're watching this massive 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.679 demographic utility shift. So as the audience moves and the 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.040 consumer moves, so too does the advertiser. And this is 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:15.000 a perfect means to connect directly with consumer and directly 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.720 with audience in an authentic way. So those numbers grow. 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:24.080 The numbers grow as the influencer and talent communicates to 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.280 a larger group of people. And it grows just in 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:32.000 how we are using those services and those platforms with 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.000 more and more time and attention. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.320 Then can I just ask you, is that a ten 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.240 percent business or is that structured all kinds of different ways. 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.960 It's a little higher because the work is so much 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.960 work because you're not doing like necessarily one brand deal 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.080 for the whole year. Some of these some of these 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.240 are fifty to one hundred deals per per influencer happening 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.160 over the course of the year. It is so much 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:04.600 work for those manager salespeople like their managers growing their 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.760 careers and advising, and then they're also out there literally 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.120 selling these clients. So it's like these two roles in one. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:18.040 So it warrants a larger piece because it's really hard 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.520 to do and it takes a ton of work. We 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.440 also can migrate some of the ones who have ambition 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.760 for being in a TV show or movie to another 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.560 medium through our network and relationships. So the select team 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.040 identified the Mormon wives and that's become a massive hit 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.479 for them that they're now producing. We place Georgia Berger, 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.480 one of our executives who we trained to propagate, was 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.680 a former assistant a nine years ago and knew the 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.679 television and entertainment set. We put her inside Select and 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.520 so she's there working with Lisa and the team there 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:55.560 to kind of mine opportunities from their clients also to 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:57.480 migrate them to television, and then it becomes a great 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.680 flywheel all of the Kardashians where they're social grows, their 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.760 television growth and advertiser and brand interest grows. Then another 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:06.960 lane for that world is that we're also able to 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:12.040 develop out actual brands with those clients. Like Mindy McKnight, 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.879 who's represented there, has a hair product business called Heritage 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:18.919 that does incredibly well inside Walmart. So you have this 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.720 little kind of almost venture world going on, and you've 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.320 seen it with so many celebrities, but these influencers really 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.240 doing it organically and directly with their consumer building out 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.560 actual brands as well directly. So we have a credible 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.199 barbecue company with Anthony Anderson and Cedric the entertainer. On 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:42.880 the more traditional entertainment side. The opportunity to unlock that 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.280 opportunity is big. So you can feed a television show, 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:48.720 you can run these micro transactions and keep the lights 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.680 on and grow their businesses and help and keep them 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:53.879 fed and raising their families, and then you can have 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:58.359 these upsides into this brand creation where where there's interest, 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:05.160 engagement and organic authentic opportunity. So I really like that business. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.560 Does Propagate have a piece of that company or does 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.439 Propagate benefit from the client has more revenue coming in 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:13.760 and you commission that revenue. 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.760 All different, so some we invest in, some we build, 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.000 some we incubate, some we just commission. So it's a 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:26.360 range of opportunities that we look to with the clients 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.840 whatever they want or whatever help they need. Some of 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.320 them we have to actually build. Sometimes we bring the 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:34.960 idea to the client and co invest or sometimes we 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:40.520 just help source the opportunity from an investment on the outside, 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.280 or maybe they need somebody who can merchandise or somebody 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.320 who can build it, or someone who can manufacture it. 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.639 So it's all different. Some of them are pure commission 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.399 based based tied to the revenue that comes out of 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.360 what our managers help advise them to accomplish. And then 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.080 others are ones where we've actually come up with the 0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:02.000 idea packaged in the talent, invest it along and built 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.440 it with them so that they there's a range to it, 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:06.840 just like a kind of it's like a mini venture 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:13.240 portfolio of different structures inside the company. Now I have 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.600 a whole thesis about our entire business that was from 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:17.840 the start of the day we opened it. That's only 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:24.439 which is where content creates culture comes commerce, And is 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.520 that content the influencer? Is that content the TV show? 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.800 But where we're driving culture drives commerce, and that is 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:39.000 an amazing opportunity that's been unlocked through the technological transformation 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.120 of how the Internet allows us to talk one to one, 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:42.840 one to many. 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.040 Let's talk about some shows. You're wearing a stick hat. 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:50.080 Let's use stick microcosm example. First of all, what made 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.960 you say yes to pursuing this? And tell me about 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:57.280 sort of the evolution of stick and why it makes 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:59.000 sense for Propagate to do this show. 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.679 Well, whenever I'm talking to a real estate developer or 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:08.120 venture capitalist or private equity investor, I always do explain 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:11.280 that our world is actually very similar and one really 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:13.919 clear cut way. Each one of our shows, as you 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.439 point out, is its own business, with its own CEO 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:22.000 and its own staff. You know, so you work with 0:24:22.040 --> 0:24:25.600 it a creator like I have had the privilege of 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:28.600 working with Jason Keller on this. You ID eight and 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:33.919 create together and build out a pitch and a process 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:36.320 to go take it to market to get somebody. And 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:38.680 in this case, I was wildly passionate about it because 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.520