1 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to 6 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at 7 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love 8 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a 10 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for 11 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: joining me for session two ninety eight of the Therapy 12 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation 13 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. When Beyonce Jizelle Knows 14 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: Carter declared, let it go, girl, let it out, Girl, 15 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: Twilight thing like you came up about the South Girl 16 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: Church girls whipped their hips across the Eastern and Western hemispheres. 17 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: With the homage to the Clark sisters embedded in the beats. 18 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: Many felt sanctified and seen all within the same breath. 19 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: For many of us, it was a call for healing 20 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: or what happens when our church communities have been responsible 21 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: for our harm and not our healing. To discuss this 22 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: complex and sensitive topic today, I'm joined by doctors Tama Bryant, 23 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist, ordained minister, and the twenty twenty three 24 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: president of the American Psychological Association. She's an ordained elder 25 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: at First A and Me Church in South Los Angeles, 26 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: where she directs the mental health ministry, and she's also 27 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: the host of the Homecoming Podcast, a mental health podcast 28 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: to facilitate your journey home to your authentic self. In 29 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: our conversation, we discuss why it's important for faith communities 30 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: and psychological communities to align, how religious institutions can create 31 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: more ethical standards to protect members from abuse, and how 32 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: to navigate feelings of anger towards God after surviving abuse 33 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: in the church. If something resonates with you while enjoying 34 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: our conversation, please share with us on social media using 35 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: the hashtag TBG in session or join us over in 36 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. To talk more in depth about the episode. 37 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: You can join us at community nott Therapy for Blackgirls 38 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. It is such a pleasure 39 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: to have you joined us Actor team, and thank you 40 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm 41 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: excited for the conversation. Yeah, so so many things to 42 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: talk about. But one of the things that our community 43 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: really has a lot of energy around, rightfully. So right 44 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: I think given you know black Women is church hurt. 45 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: And I know you have talked about this extensively with 46 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: forming Gifts on the podcast assists from the Tuesdays podcast 47 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: shout out to them, and so I'm thrilled to have 48 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: you talk with us today about it. So can you 49 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: start by just saying what is church hurt or church abuse? So? 50 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: Church hurt or abuse is when we are emotionally and spiritually, 51 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: sometimes physically, sexually, financially mistreated under the guise of it 52 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: being a spiritual mandate or within the confines of the church. 53 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, many people have experienced it as a result 54 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: of the church being an institution, and an institution is 55 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: run by human beings and human beings who have at 56 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: times misused their power, their authority, their opportunities as it 57 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: relates to people's vulnerabilities, And how might people recognize whether 58 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: they have been a victim of church because I think 59 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: sometimes it's hard to tell, so how would someone new. 60 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: So ultimately, if we think about church and relationship with 61 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: God intentionally being based in love, like what are the 62 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: principles that this space is supposed to embody? And then 63 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: how does it feel when you are in that place? 64 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: How are you treated? And how do you feel when 65 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: you leave? So it's not that there will never be disagreement, right. 66 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: Church is like any other place where you have a 67 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: group of people. But you can think about times in 68 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: your life where I might have thought differently or at 69 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,239 Speaker 1: a different perspective, but I didn't feel demeaned or disrespected 70 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: or devalued, that I felt safe to be myself. So 71 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: when we are constantly feeling anxious, when we end up 72 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: leaving feeling worse than when we came, when we feel 73 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: silenced and that we are unacceptable, when statements are made 74 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: that are derogatory, that are humiliating, that are abusive by 75 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: those in power or those who are in the majority. 76 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: When we feel like our connection to God is being 77 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: mediated and determined by human beings who are pronouncing over 78 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: us judgment, condemnation, rejection, then we can understand that to 79 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: be a form of church heard when you feel that 80 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: you are being manipulated. There can be verbal abuse in 81 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: terms of the name calling. Sometimes there can be financial 82 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: control or some people who aren't allowed to go places 83 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: or do things until they run it by their pastor 84 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: so you're not being empowered to live your lives. It's 85 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: one thing if you seek out pastoral counseling for support 86 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: or for guidance, or it's motivated by you that you 87 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: have trust in this individual and you're interested in hearing 88 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: their perspective, versus when you are told you cannot decide 89 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: or do anything with your life without their instruction. That's 90 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: not an empowering or a liberating ministry. People have also 91 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: misused their power and authority as it relates to a 92 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: sexual abuse and sexual harassment within the House of God. 93 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: And so you want to perpetually ask yourself the question, 94 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: and does this feel like love? Right? Because when you 95 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: can think about if you had a teacher or a 96 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: friend or a parent whoever said something to you that 97 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: may have been hard to hear, but you were clear 98 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: they loved you, it feels different, right. And so are 99 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: people operating from a place of compassion or does it 100 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: feel more like a clique, a club, isolating, demoralizing? This 101 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: is not an edifying house and edifying place. It's more 102 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: obligation and duty but no fulfillment. Now, doctor Tammer, you 103 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: have said a lot, and I am trying to figure 104 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: out how to ask this question. So the first thing 105 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: that came up for me is I think for a 106 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: lot of people who maybe have had abusive relationships, maybe 107 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: with parents, with partners, it may be difficult to kind 108 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: of discern is this actually healthy? Right? So what kind 109 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: of suggestions or guidance might you be able to provide 110 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: for people who may be struggling kind of being able 111 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: to tell like, okay, is this okay? Or is it right? 112 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: And so we want to think about this phrase. If 113 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: it is humiliating, it's not healing. If it's humiliating, it's 114 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: not healing. So someone who is trying to help me 115 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: even to be better or to grow or to empower 116 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: me in their presence, I don't feel like they are 117 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: glorying in my embarrassment. Right, They're not celebrating and holding 118 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: their power over me. They may have power because I 119 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: respect them and they're insightful and they have some wisdom, 120 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: but in the presence, you think about wise counsel, wise, loving, counsel. 121 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: When I'm in the presence of wisdom that is based 122 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: in love, it actually sparks and inspire fires my growth, 123 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: Versus in the presence of people who in order to 124 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: feel good about themselves they have to insult meat or others, 125 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: and it might not start with you, So you won't 126 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: even pay attention to how are they treating others? Who 127 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: is it that people are collectively laughing at and laughing 128 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: about who gets diminished on the microphone in the pulpit, right? 129 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: And so what does it appear is the emotional maturity 130 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: of the people who are in charge, right, If they 131 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: are teasing, bullying, if primarily I feel they're just angry 132 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: all the time, then this is not likely good ground 133 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: for my spiritual growth. The other thing that I thought 134 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: about when you were talking was I think culturally, for 135 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: lots of different reasons, there can be like this tough 136 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: love narrative, right that you sometimes also see kind of 137 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: perpetuated from the pulpit. And so how do we begin 138 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: to kind of divorce ourselves from this feeling of like okay, 139 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: to get people to change, to get them to be better, 140 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: it has to be ashaming. I'm always tough and rough 141 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: on you. It is for us to be honest and 142 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: reflect on ourselves. Who are the people that you at 143 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: different stages of your life became clear you needed to 144 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: censor around. Right. There are people who I feel free 145 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: and if something comes to my mind, I'm gonna say 146 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: it if I am my authentic self in their presence. 147 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: And then you think about the people who you know, 148 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell them too much. I'm not 149 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: going to share my business, I'm not gonna engaging them 150 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: on a deeper level. And so what has happened often 151 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: is that people's treatment of us as opposed to encouraging 152 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: us to be transformed, what it usually encourages a secret keeping. 153 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: So you think about, for example, teenagers who quote unquote 154 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: weren't allowed to date, right, and then they were out 155 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: here dating somehow, or sneaking and putting other clothes in 156 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: your backpack, or changing when you get to school. So 157 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: it's not that people were transformed, it was that they 158 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: learned to live in secrecy. So being harsh and mean 159 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: spirited with people is not a requirement for truth telling, 160 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: and many people have equated the two that I'm just 161 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: gonna tell it like it is, is my purpose in 162 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: this moment to tear you down or to build you up. 163 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: And if you pay attention, you'll notice that some people 164 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: are stroking their ego by pointing out how flawed you are. 165 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: And that's not healthy. Yeah, that happens in church bases. 166 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: But also just yeah, that's right, right, And I think 167 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: that's such a beautiful thing to check in with yourself about, 168 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: like where have I learned to censor? And who in 169 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: my life do I feel like I can't really be 170 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: my authentic that's right because I think you can tell, right, 171 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: like when you ask the question, Oh, yep, that's what 172 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: it looks like. Yes, yeah, So when we're honest with ourselves, 173 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: I think we can have answers to those words, right, 174 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: And it doesn't feel like hazing. Some ministries feel like 175 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: you're online or right, that you're plasure. And I say 176 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: this as as a soul roar, but it's like getting 177 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: into God. It's not jumping through man made hoops of 178 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: worthiness that God has declared I am worthy, that I 179 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: am enough, that I am sacred, that I am loved. 180 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: And people have come along to create additional barriers to 181 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: make themselves feel greater or more powerful than others, And 182 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: I invite us even to think about whom churches often 183 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: bully or put down or demonize, and what often goes unchecked, 184 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: and they're claiming it's all under the gospel. Right. So 185 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: the easy example as if a girl gets pregnant and 186 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: if she is talked about and demoted and the boy 187 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: or man who got her pregnant retains their position. Right. 188 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: I think around sexuality that people can dedicate a bunch 189 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: of sermons to talking about sexuality and have never once 190 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: preached against molestation, have never once preached against intimate partner abuse, 191 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: have never once preached against racism. So it's very selective 192 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:50,479 Speaker 1: quote unquote righteousness that when you take down the layers 193 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: you can see that it is very much out of 194 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: people's own human brokenness. So if we have community members 195 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: who are listening to what you're seeing in they realize, oh, 196 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: this maybe my situation. We know that it can often 197 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: be very difficult for people to leave church communities, right 198 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: because for a lot of us, that is kind of 199 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: where we've grown Maybe family has grown up in the 200 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: church community. So what might it look like to be 201 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: able to kind of get ourselves out of these situations? 202 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: So one consideration for people who are very invested in 203 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: a place, maybe you've been there a long time, or 204 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: maybe there are some things you enjoy about it is 205 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: to see is this the kind of space and timing 206 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: where there is the possibility of transformation and growth? And 207 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: a part of what you can look at is are 208 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: they receptive to feedback? Right? Some people are leading or 209 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: pastoring or doing ministry the way they saw it and 210 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: they have never seen or known or been exposed to 211 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: another way. Right, do you have the kind of relationship 212 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: with people where you can make suggestions? Right? You're taking 213 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: your child to a Sunday school class and something feels 214 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: really off. Is the Sunday school teachers someone who you 215 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: feel like you could have like a real conversation with 216 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: And do they hear you? And do you see any 217 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: growth or progress or attempts to shift as it relates 218 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: to that right now? If it feels like that's a 219 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: whole lot of labor or the people are not open 220 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: to change, or maybe they're open to change it for 221 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: the right person told them, but they don't put you 222 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: in that position. They're not willing to hear it from you. 223 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: Then to say, okay, I am ready to begin to 224 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: think about making my shift, and I would encourage everyone 225 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: who is listening to not over generalize. I think sometimes 226 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: people get hurt in church and say I'm done with 227 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Where it's like with an AA meeting, 228 00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: you can go to one in New York and one 229 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: in LA one downtown, one uptown, and it's different because 230 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: the people are different. And so to not deny yourself 231 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: any community because of some communities that were toxic. It 232 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: may be that you want to take like a season 233 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: for a break because some people it was so distressing, devastating, 234 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: overwhelming that some people are like I'm just gonna go 235 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: online for a while, or I'm just gonna read the 236 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: Bible for myself and do my own prayers. But I 237 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: would just encourage not making that a forever statement. Like 238 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: if you have an unhealthy relationship and then say I'm 239 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: never dating again, well you probably need to pause, right, 240 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: You need a time out because it was hurtful and 241 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: you got your heartbroken. But we don't want to say 242 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: never right necessarily. And then going into new spaces, you 243 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: have some new things to look for based on your experience. 244 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: Some things you didn't know were red flags just because 245 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: you had never made the connection, but now that you 246 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: have seen it up close, there will be things you 247 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: hear from the microphone, or there will be some dynamics 248 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: that you can notice in a place and to be 249 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: willing to visit and explore. Does this feel like home? 250 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: Does it feel like Yes, people here are imperfect, but 251 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: it on a foundational level feels like a loving environment 252 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: or people who are trying to be loving right And 253 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: to know, not every place is a match for every person. 254 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: So it can help to get recommendations from people, but 255 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: then you'll have to feel it out for yourself and 256 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: looking for the full picture. I think sometimes when we 257 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,959 Speaker 1: have been wounded, we go in only looking for signs 258 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: of danger and never looking for signs of hope or possibility, 259 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: and they're likely both present. So we want to see 260 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: what is the overarching feeling of this place, and it's 261 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 1: going to be important. Just as I was mentioning not 262 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: over generalizing to every place, to also not let my 263 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: experience with broken people contaminate my idea of who God 264 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: is to me right that sometimes we have said I 265 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: am done with God because of the things that quote 266 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: unquote people of God have done right, but they were 267 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: acting out of their own stuff, out of their own issues, 268 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: and weren't actually reflecting God. There's a powerful poem by 269 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: a Native American poet called Letter to God, and he says, 270 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: Dear God, I never heard of you before. I heard 271 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: of mother Earth, and I heard a father Sky, but 272 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: I never heard of you. I was willing to give 273 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: you a chance until I met your representatives. My Lord. 274 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: It's painful thing, it's painful. And so you know, some 275 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: of these quote unquote representatives don't really represent God, right, 276 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: they represent themselves and their own unhealed wounds. And so 277 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: to rediscover or discover for the first time, who actually 278 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: is God to you that it's not poisoned by the 279 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: shortcomings of people. That's so beautiful, Ncent Tamer. Staying with 280 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: that thought, I wonder if there are things that future ministers, 281 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: current ministers institutions of faith can be doing a better 282 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: job of or reconsidering in terms of how to create 283 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: ethical and safe spaces for people so that we minimize 284 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: the likelihood that people are hurt and abused by being 285 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: in church spaces. So one is checks and balances and 286 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: some level of accountability when you have people who don't 287 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: have to answer to anyone. That creates an atmosphere that 288 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: is very dangerous when you have leadership that can't take feedback. 289 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: We have this thing often in church culture where they're quick. 290 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: Obviously we collectively that we are quick to call people haters, 291 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: and that is so problematic because it means no one 292 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: can ever disagree with you that they're either haters or 293 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,719 Speaker 1: they're against God. That's the whole touch not my anointed, 294 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: and don't talk about the man of God, and we 295 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: have all of these silencing rules. Then it creates a 296 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: breeding ground for abusive behavior. And so I would say 297 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: for those who are in ministry or in school or 298 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: training to become ministers, to never allow yourself to get 299 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: to that place one where you believe in your thoughts 300 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: are always one and the same with God. Right, so 301 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: no one can tell me anything because I am God's 302 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: person and everybody else is not. I'm the only one 303 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: who can hear from God. And then to be open 304 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: to not going into defensiveness, not only defending ourselves, but 305 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: often we are so defensive of people who are gifted. 306 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: And I want you to know someone can be gifted 307 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: and anointed and still do harmful things. Right, So, Sometimes 308 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: when people have come forward and have said that this 309 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: leader hurt me. Then because the person is a great preacher, 310 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: people don't believe them, right, so they say, no, not 311 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: that person. That person is in the oil. That person 312 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: is you know, truly ways of God. And what I 313 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: hope we have learned from various fields is that talent 314 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: and intelligence do not make us immune to doing harmful actions. 315 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: And so to remain open, to listen, to remain humble 316 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: instead of a lot of the arrogance that gets promoted, 317 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: and to be willing to check each other. Not from 318 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: a place of that you're trying to destroy someone, but 319 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: we know that when anyone under the name of God 320 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: is being harmed is destructive to the person, and it's 321 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: destructive to the faith and destructive to the community, and 322 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: ultimately it ends up destroying the person who was allowed 323 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: to get away with it. More from my conversation with 324 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: doctor Tama after the break. So you're in such a 325 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: unique position entertainment, being trained as both a psychologist and 326 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: an ordained minister, and I know our training for psychology, 327 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: there's lots of conversations around really being cognizant of the 328 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: power that we have in working with people who are 329 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: typically very vulnerable. Is there a similar kind of conversation 330 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: as a part of training to become a minister? Like 331 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: what is that training? Lie? So it varies by denomination, 332 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: and I will say because of legal actions, there has 333 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: been much more of a push to hold people accountable 334 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: and hold churches accountable. I will say when I was 335 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: going through seminary, the majority of the conversation, even think 336 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: about being nail centered, was this whole languaging around men. 337 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: Be careful because there are women members who will try 338 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: to seduce you, right, And that was like the whole frame. 339 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: And I'm waiting for the part two to not stop 340 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: praying on these women, right, who come in with vulnerability, 341 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: who come in hurting, who come in revering you because 342 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: you're the only man they know who takes prayers seriously 343 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: and they have been taught that that is what is 344 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: to be desired and to be wanted in someone. And 345 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, there was no conversation about that. It was 346 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: more be careful because people are going to want to 347 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: set you up. And so it's like who is teaching 348 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: that message, who was receiving that message, and what is 349 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: being silenced in that space now? I know a lot 350 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: more churches require training around sexual harassment, around child abuse, 351 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: where now you know a lot of churches. If you're 352 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: going to do youth ministry, it requires some kind of 353 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: background check, whereas before it was like anybody who volunteered 354 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: could take the kids anywhere. Anybody was in a position 355 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: of power could mistreat abuse. And let me say the 356 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: abusive behavior, because I think often people hear the sexual 357 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: peace and believe that's rare or extreme. But I want 358 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: to say one, it's not rare. Two, there are less 359 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: extreme versions of people misusing their power right knowing that 360 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: it passed, or asks you for it, that you're going 361 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: to do it, whether that is taking advantage of people's time, 362 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: taking advantage of people's resources, asking them to do things 363 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: that are harmful to their own health and well being 364 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: because they have to twenty four seven beat one call 365 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: to be of service. And so it's not good modeling 366 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: of ministry nor good care. People overworking their volunteers with 367 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: no appreciation and with no really concern for their humanity 368 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: or their family life. All of that is problematic. So 369 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: we want to model, even from the pulpit, a self care. 370 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: We want to model from the pulpit that relationship, friendship, family, respect, 371 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 1: consent are all important. So what does it look like 372 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: on the survivor side? So for those who may be 373 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: surviving or you know, realizing okay, this is something that 374 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: has happened to me and trying to put the pieces 375 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: of their lives back together, we know unfortunately in a 376 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: lot of cases of abuse, there's a lot of self 377 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: like blame, right, like I did something to find myself 378 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: in this position. So what kinds of things would you 379 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: say to people who maybe have been the victims of 380 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: church heard or abuse. I will say, especially in our community, 381 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: was the community I know best. A lot of the 382 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: self blame came from messages a victim blaming within our community. 383 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: And so we want to be really careful about how 384 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: we think about and talk about people who have been 385 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: abused in these ways, because there are two different extremes 386 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: that I hear. One is the idea that people are 387 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: just quote unquote stupid, right that oh you're weak or 388 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: you're dumb, or like I would never have let them 389 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: do that, And a real lack of compassion and a 390 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: lack of sensitivity, which again is not healing, it's not liberating. 391 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: And the other extreme is when people are just not believed. 392 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: And I said, oh, you just the term my grandmother 393 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: used to use was church happening. Right, you just go 394 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: from church to church. There's nothing wrong with that church. 395 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: You just keep church happening. Or they'll say here's a 396 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: big one. You just don't want to submit. Right. This 397 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: language is such when we think about like abuse and mistreatment. 398 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: Your people should be able to talk to you any 399 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: kind of way, do any kind of thing, and if 400 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: you're really a child of God, you will just submit 401 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: and be loyal. So we want to really unpack that 402 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: and look at what is the messaging there. It really 403 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: mirrors when people to tell you to stay in abusive relationships, right, 404 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: submit and stay and just pray to God. And so literally, 405 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: she whom the sun sets free is free indeed, and 406 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: God is very intentional about teaching that perfect love drives 407 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: out fear. If I am living in fear of what 408 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: is going to be set next or what is going 409 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: to be done in this place, that's not love. And 410 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: so for people who are in those churches now or 411 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: have recently left, it's going to be important to give 412 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: yourself compassion and to find compassionate community right, people who 413 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: will get it, and people with whom you can be honest, 414 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: who are not going to be defensive or blaming or shaming. 415 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,479 Speaker 1: That might be a therapist. It may also be friends 416 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: or family members. But as with other forms of trauma, 417 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: I like to say, share a piece of it and 418 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: see how they react to that, because some people we 419 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: can't trust with the fullness of our story. The other 420 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: thing I think that we see related to church hurt 421 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: is people feeling very angry, and rightfully so right angry 422 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: at the may be angry at the passer, but also 423 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: angry at God. I think a lot which you kind 424 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: of alluded to. Can you talk about how to kind 425 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: of really work through those kinds of feelings, because I 426 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: feel like people get really stuck in that kind of 427 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: place and then feel maybe a little shameful or guilty 428 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: that they're even having those feelings. Can you talk about 429 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: That's a great question. The first part is that I 430 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: like to say it's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things. 431 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,239 Speaker 1: And some outrageous things have happened in the name of 432 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: God or in the name of Church, in the name 433 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: of ministry, and that is outrageous, right, So if you 434 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: were outraged about how you were handled or treated, or 435 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: how you saw other people handled or treat it. That 436 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: is a healthy response. And yet as you were naming, 437 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: some people get stuck there. Right. So, if time is 438 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: passing but you see no shifting in your emotional life, 439 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: if the way you talk about it now sounds like 440 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: it happened last week, but it was early seven years ago, right, 441 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: then you're stuck. If it has now overshadowed everything else 442 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: that you can't even recall anything, whether you're experienced there 443 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: or at other places that kept you right, like, there 444 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: were some reasons why you were there, There were some 445 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: reasons why you sought it out to begin with. And 446 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: as I heal and grow, I'm able to get a 447 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: more complete picture, which allows me to also have grace 448 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: for myself. Right, what did I gain in that space 449 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: and what did I lose in that space? So that 450 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: we can have some perspective taking. And in terms of 451 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: the anger and the outrage, there is something called constructive 452 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: anger versus destructive anger. So constructive anger can motivate me 453 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: to try to either prevent this from happening to someone 454 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: else or to create new spaces. Right, Some people who 455 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: have come out of those harmful places have started their 456 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: own ministries, have said we're going to have a Bible 457 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: study at my house and none of that kind of 458 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: behavior is going to be acceptable. Or I want to 459 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: support ministries that are doing that kind of work, or 460 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: I want to raise awareness like you were asking in 461 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: the beginning, what are the warning signs? And so I 462 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: am using my outrage to try to create something better 463 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: versus a destructive anger. It leaves me in a place 464 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: where I feel perpetually stuck, overwhelmed, distraught. Meanwhile, the people 465 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: who did it have moved on with their lives, are 466 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: doing what they're doing, and my life is at a standstill, 467 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: and my faith formation and my spirituality also feel stuck 468 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: and poisoned. Right that I have disconnected actually from God, 469 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: and so it will be important for me to seek 470 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: out spiritual practices that are nourishing for me. And that 471 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: may be some old things that you used to do 472 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: that you lost sight of, or maybe some new things 473 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: that you've never tried before. And so connecting with God 474 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: and nature that when I'm going out hiking and I 475 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: feel the presence of God and it's not so heavy 476 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: for me because I don't have to deal with all 477 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: the different personalities, or I want to go back to 478 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: the old hymns that I used to hear my grandmother playing, 479 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: or when I play those, I feel God some of 480 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: us in our activism and in our service that you know, 481 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: what I really appreciated about it was the things we 482 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: used to do for community. So if I could get 483 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: involved with that, I could feel like I'm reconnected or 484 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: retapped in. So refresh your spirituality so that the anger 485 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: is not the only emotion present. Thank you for that, 486 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: Knight of Hima. So you rightfully name this as a trauma, right, 487 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: which I don't think has always been the case in 488 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: the field, right Like I don't think that always we 489 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: would have labeled this as a trauma. But I'm glad 490 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: to see that we are at a place where we 491 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: are now. So what kinds of things do you think 492 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,959 Speaker 1: that therapists and other mental health professionals really need to 493 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: know to be able to support people who are survivors 494 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: of church heard interviews? So one is even asking the question, 495 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: and most of our intakes not only do we not 496 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: ask about church heard, we just don't ask about people's 497 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: faith at all. And it's really remarkable given that we 498 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: ask all kinds of things about people's business. Right, We 499 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: want to know all your relationship history. We want to 500 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: know what substances you use. We want to know your 501 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: work history, we want to know your dating life, we 502 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 1: want to know your health status. We want to know 503 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: all of these things. And research shows that the general 504 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: public endorses higher spirituality and religiosity than mental health professionals 505 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: on average. So then you largely have people who don't 506 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: consider faith to be central providing services for people for 507 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: whom it is central, a central part of their identity, 508 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: a central part of their meaning, making a central part 509 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: of their values or coping. And so to work with 510 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: someone for months or even years and have no idea 511 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: about their spirituality or religion, you don't actually know this person, right, 512 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: You know, there are symptoms that you asked about, but 513 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: that's it. And so I would say, even before we 514 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: get to the harmful experiences, asking even in the intake 515 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: process about people's faith or spirituality, what nourishes them spiritually, 516 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: even if they're not a part of an organized religion, 517 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: and kind of what that journey has been meaning is 518 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: the way they practice or don't practice. Now, has that 519 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: been throughout their life or what changed over time and 520 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: what brought about those changes, because some people will say, 521 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: well I used to be religious, but now I'm spiritual. 522 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: Well that's a flag. There's a story there, right, Whenever 523 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: I used to do something and I have shifted, there's 524 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: a reason. And so it will also be important, I'll say, 525 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: for mental health professionals to check themselves, because we often 526 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: fall on one to extremes. So there are religious mental 527 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: health professionals who only see it as wonderful and good 528 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: and a great resource and can get defensive or non 529 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 1: believing when people are sharing their pain about those places, 530 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,959 Speaker 1: and so then we're not really hearing the pain. We're 531 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: too busy defending the institution. Or on the other side, 532 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 1: we have people who have totally rejected church in any 533 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: other religion and believe that it's only a place of control, fear, 534 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: and shame, And so if someone shares they had a 535 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 1: hurtful experience, we're quick to jump on the bandwagon of yes, 536 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 1: that's why you need to leave all those places alone. 537 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: And those places are this and are that, and so 538 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: as a mental health professional, ethically it's important for me 539 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: to hold both truths that church and other religious sites 540 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: have been places of healing and harm, that they have 541 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: been places that have advocated for liberation and places that 542 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: advocated for bondage. And that different people have different experiences, 543 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: and sometimes the same person can have different experiences at 544 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: different stages of their life. And so it's not for 545 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: me to interpret or to dictate what people's experiences. It's 546 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: for me to create a safe environment where you can 547 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: share your story and get to the root of what 548 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: is true for you and what will ultimately nourish you 549 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: when heal you. More from my conversation with doctor Tama 550 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: after the break, I've been really encouraged to see more, 551 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, like mental health ministries in churches and can 552 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about why it's important for 553 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: spirituality and like psychologists and other therapists and mental health 554 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: professionals to be in alignment to have some of that 555 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: kind of operating in the similar sites right is so 556 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: important And I'm grateful to be able to lead our 557 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: mental health ministry at First Adam Church in Los Angeles, 558 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: And it pushes back against the false choice that people 559 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: need to either have faith or go to therapy. Right, 560 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: So there's a common saying and T shirts and mugs 561 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: that you can pray and go to therapy. You can 562 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,280 Speaker 1: love Jesus and love your therapy. Right, So us working 563 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 1: in collaboration and communication is for the betterment of the community. Right, 564 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: both faith leaders and mental health professionals should never make 565 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,880 Speaker 1: people feel like they can only have one right that 566 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: you can either have your church family or you can 567 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: have your therapist. No, we need the collective. And you 568 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: know what I like to say for pastors is the 569 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: importance of becoming comfortable making referrals. I've been through, as 570 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: I said, seminary, and there was one semester, as you 571 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: would say, on pastoral counseling, and the majority of that 572 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,280 Speaker 1: semester was spent on bereavement and grief, which is important 573 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 1: and every pastor will have to do funerals to help 574 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: people with grief. But there was no conversation or lecture 575 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:32,240 Speaker 1: on bipolar disorder, or on addiction, on suicidality, on abusive relationships. 576 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 1: And so then to say that this untrained person, an 577 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: uninformed person, because they love God, is now in a 578 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: position to take care of all of your mental health needs, 579 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: it's not fair. It's not fair to the members, and 580 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: it's also not fair to that minister who is not prepared, 581 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: and so there is nothing shameful about making a referral 582 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: while you will still provide the pastoral support to also 583 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: encourage people to get how from professionals who are trained 584 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: to address the issues. And I will say for mental 585 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: health professionals to really respect what a community of faith 586 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: can give. As most of us provide sessions for one 587 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: hour once a week or every other week. If you're 588 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: a part of an active faith community, often those are 589 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: people who can be with you throughout the week multiple 590 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: times a week, may stay on the phone for you 591 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: for hours, may meet up with you and come to 592 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,879 Speaker 1: your hospital room, come to your wedding. You know, all 593 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: of it's a community, and so to assume that me 594 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: meeting with you once a week or every other week 595 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: is going to take the place of that is ignorant. 596 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: So we work better together. So there has been a 597 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: beautiful thread even in this conversation, which I'm not surprised 598 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: about giving who you are an exertainment, but of reconnecting 599 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,320 Speaker 1: with yourself, right, of reconnecting with yourself, reconnecting with God 600 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: and your entire platform. You have a book and a 601 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: podcast called Homecoming, which I think is very fitting. Can 602 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,879 Speaker 1: you talk with us a little bit about the book 603 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: and why that title. So the full title is homecoming 604 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: overcome fear and trauma to reclaim your whole, authentic self. 605 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: And the reality is that fear and trauma, including church hurt, 606 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: disconnect us from ourselves. They cause us to forget who 607 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: we are. We can feel devalued, and it makes sense. 608 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: We often if you're mistreated, you start to question or 609 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: doubt yourself. It can cause you to feel insecure. You 610 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: can lose sight of your own voice, and then you're 611 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: just wondering what other people think right, or other people 612 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: want from you. And so we can start performing right 613 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: or pretending or trying to present in a certain way. 614 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,240 Speaker 1: And so to heal is to come back to truth, 615 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: to tell myself the truth, to live in truth. And 616 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: that is when I'm most empowered. Whenever I having to 617 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: pretend or be faith, I am outside of myself and 618 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 1: I am outside of my power and my purpose. And 619 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: so the invitation is always there for us to reconnect 620 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: to the truth of who we are. And I like 621 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: to say for those who grew up with childhood trauma, 622 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: you can come home to yourself, even if that's for 623 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: the first time. Maybe you've never felt at home within 624 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: yourself right, You've always felt anxious or stressed, or insecure 625 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: or doubting, or you have numbed yourself right, numbed yourself 626 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: with substances, numb yourself with spiritualizing things that are not spiritual, 627 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: numbed yourself with gossip, numbed yourself on these phones that 628 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: are addictive. And so I want to come home to 629 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: the truth of who I am. So one of the 630 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: first homeworks I give in the book is to think 631 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,879 Speaker 1: about a practice or an activity that when you do it, 632 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: you feel like you and maybe you haven't it in 633 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: a while because you've been busy or for whatever reason, 634 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: and to make a commitment this week to reviving that activity. So, like, 635 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: for me, it's dancing. I'd love to dance. I love it. 636 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: I love it when I'm dancing. I feel my body, heart, 637 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: spirit is all connected, culturally connected, my spirituality connected. And 638 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: yet sometimes I don't dance, So then I have to 639 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: like go back to that, and that brings me back 640 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: to myself. So definitely go out and grab a copy 641 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: of Homecoming for more exercises like this and beautiful, just 642 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 1: beautiful words about how to reconnect with yourself is really important. 643 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: Thank you. So where can we stay connected with you? 644 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 1: Doctors Tama. What is your website as well as any 645 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like to share. So, my website 646 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: is doctor Tama and that's spelled dr th e Ma 647 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: dot com. I'm doctor Tama on Twitter, doctor Tama on 648 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: TikTok as of this year and all right, trying to 649 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: try new things. I'm out there, and then Instagram it's 650 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: doctor Taba but it has a period on Instagram, so 651 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 1: Dr period Tama. And then the podcast is on YouTube, Spotify, SoundCloud, 652 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: and iTunes. And then we can find information about the 653 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: book on your Yes, absolutely, and the book is available 654 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: at all major bookstores. And I'm so blessed that they 655 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 1: allowed me to do an audible version. And so I 656 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: know some folks are like, we don't want to read 657 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: the two hundred pages. Okay, you can listen. We'll be 658 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: sure to include all of that in our show notes. 659 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, actor Tamor for sharing with us. 660 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:39,439 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. I'm 661 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: so glad doctor Tama was able to join us for 662 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,439 Speaker 1: this episode to learn more about the work she's doing, 663 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: or to do more research on this topic, be sure 664 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot 665 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: com slash Session two ninety eight, and don't forget to 666 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: text two of your girls right now to tell them 667 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: to check out the episode. If you're looking for a 668 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at 669 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you 670 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: want to continue digging into this topic or just be 671 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: in community with other sisters, come on over and join 672 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of 673 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: the Internet designed just for black women. You can join 674 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This 675 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,759 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Elise Ellis and 676 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so 677 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward 678 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take 679 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:32,479 Speaker 1: it care