WEBVTT - The Sierra OnLine Story 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:12.080 Text with Technology with tech Stuff from stuff works dot com. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.600 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I am your host, 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.520 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer at how Stuff Works 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.720 and I love to talk about the tech and today 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.920 we're gonna talk about a company called Sierra Online. It 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.560 was a game company that was a dominant player in 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:35.520 the PC games space in the eighties and nineties. And really, 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:41.519 when I say dominant player, that is serious understatement. Sierra 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:47.599 Online was the PC game company of that era. In nine, 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:50.720 just to give you a little spoiler for later in 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:55.160 the episode, the company was acquired for the princely sum 0:00:55.320 --> 0:01:00.720 of one point zero six billion dollars, though that was 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.400 all in a stock swap, it wasn't for cash. If 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.240 you adjust that for inflation for today's money, that ends 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.640 up being about one point seven billion dollars. That's how 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:16.000 much the game company was acquired back in nineteen and 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.040 considering its origins, that's phenomenal. Now I got the chance 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:24.560 to speak with Sierra Online co founder Ken Williams, and 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:29.039 he and his wife Roberta founded Sierra Online back in 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.319 and we're gonna play the interview first and then I'll 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.040 fill in some of the gaps with the timeline for 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.520 Sierra Online and go into more detail about what was 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.440 going on with the company. But the interview is pretty interesting. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:44.480 One thing I want to mention right off the bat 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.080 is the interview with Ken really drove home the fact 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.800 that there's no substitute for talking with a primary source. 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:56.200 Because I had researched Sierra quite a bit before I 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.800 had a conversation with Mr Williams, and as you'll hear, 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.920 I didn't even have a full understanding of things that 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.720 were going on behind the scenes. You know, you read 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.280 about these articles, these reports, you read all this information, 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.920 all this supplemental information, and then when you go to 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.400 the primary source, you find out, like now, that's not 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.880 exactly how things happened, and you realize the written record 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.040 of history appears to be different than what actually happened. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.160 That's a valuable thing to keep in mind all the time, always, 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.720 but particularly for this episode. I don't want to spoil anything, 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:35.040 so let's go straight to the interview. Ken Williams, Welcome 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.519 to Tech Stuff. Thank you so much for taking time 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.400 to talk with me and my listeners. I really appreciate it. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:45.800 Thank you, and I think so too. It is really 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.480 a dream come true for to get the opportunity to 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:50.040 speak with you, just to give you a little bit 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:53.280 of an idea of where I'm coming from. I was 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.200 born in so I grew up right as the era 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.000 of the micro computer morphing into the small computer was 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.080 taking place. We had an Apple to e in my home. 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.400 I was one of those folks who, largely because my 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.000 dad is also one of those folks, started playing games 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.200 early on. And obviously the Sierra Online series of games 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:22.480 became a huge, uh influential power in those early days 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:27.400 and I think definitely played a role in pushing forward 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.440 the narrative aspect of gaming in general. That was something 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.920 that you really you only saw one of two types 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.360 of games in those early days before I would I 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.840 would say before really Mystery House came out, which is 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.280 that you either got text only or you've got a 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.280 very simple arcady kind of game, but you never really 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.160 had the combination of graphics and texts, something that Sierra 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.560 really became known for in those early days. But before 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:57.720 I jump into that, once a little bit about your 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:02.400 background before you got into be eating games. Were you 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.720 were you a programmer for things like mainframe systems, and 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.720 things of that nature. Yep I was a program on 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:14.880 mainframe computers and well, I don't know, I was doing 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.279 software development for a lot of different companies in the 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:25.719 Los Angeles area and it was all focused on online applications. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.400 In those days, people have mainframe computers in terminals scattered 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:34.120 around the country and I was kind of the I guess, 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.520 semi expert on dealing with that, and that that was 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.880 where the name. Initially CRE was taught online systems and 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:45.400 it was my consulting practice, and then the first couple 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.880 of games I think still set online systems, and then 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.520 we decided to move to the Yosemite and we named 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:55.479 it um CRE Online Nice. And when you were working, 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.760 from the stories that go around, and I don't know 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.320 how much of it is apocryphal versus true history, but 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.159 the story tends to be that you were, uh, you 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.000 had purchased an Apple computer, that this was one of 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.360 those early micro computers, that's what we called personal computers 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.520 before we started calling all of them personal computers, and 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.440 that you were working on a Fortrain compiler for the 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:21.400 Apple computer when the first the first thoughts of building 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:25.600 a game came up. Was that is that accurate? Yeah, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:30.359 that's accurate. I had actually done oh, something very similar 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.800 to Fortran compilers for a company I was working for, 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:40.400 and the Microsoft released Visual Basic for them, I think 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:45.040 p rs AD and I started thinking about wouldn't it 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.520 be cool if there was a portrayin compiler on the 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:53.279 Apple two and computer with Microsoft, I guess. And then 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.680 ROBERTA saw a game that was on a time sharing 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.560 terminal post in the mike, the original uh, the Original Adventure, 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.960 and was playing it and it said that she got 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:06.760 to be fun. It's what There was a version of 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:12.880 it for micro computers are personal computers, and they were 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.279 about that time. She got me an Apple two for 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.960 Christmas and I started coding on the game for her 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:21.960 at the same time I was working on the compiler. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.560 And when I started going door to door with computer 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.599 stores to you know, kind of peddle, not the idea 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.680 of my Coortran pilot. They were all excited about her 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.240 game and not Fortran. So so was the game of 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:40.520 game company. Very practical, very pragmatic approach into getting into 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.440 into games, and it really it's hard to explain to 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:50.400 people today how this was really a huge leap forward 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:54.320 to have the graphic element the images element, even though 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.919 they were static images and they were monochromatic because of 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.000 the old Apple two. Uh that adding that to the 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.280 element of a text based adventure where you're you are 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.719 put in the role of a protagonist who has to 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.200 make choices in order to navigate through a game. That 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.239 combination had not really been explored before the first game 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.080 Mystery House comes out, which was as the name implies, 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.360 that you're solving a mystery. And I imagined that that 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.960 ended up creating a bit of a stir at the 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.760 time because it was it was sort of a new idea, 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.640 but also as I understand it, uh, there was the 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.200 world was so different back then. Today, if you want 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.200 to buy a game, you tend to go with digital distribution. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.960 You will download a game and that's it. You never 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.600 have to worry about it. In those early, early early 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.480 days of PC gaming, there were very few places where 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.360 you could actually go to buy games. It was a 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.920 very young industry, and from what I understand, the initial 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.640 approach to selling Mystery House was that you had a 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.400 full page ad in like a hobbyist magazine, and people 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:04.760 had to cut out a little order form and actually 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:09.480 fill it out and send it into you. Is that accurate? Um, well, 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.560 kind of that. Yeah, those are primitive times. There was 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.040 no Part of the problem is how do you deliver 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.800 the games. Games in those days were on audio cassette 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.320 and most of the software sold for the piano said 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.360 he was on audio cassette, and even the Apple two 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.720 originally I think games were on audio cassette. And then 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.200 they came up with the idea of a disk drive 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.120 that it only had a d K of storage and 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.480 that's less than you know, they're one low as picture, 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.080 so it you know, how to deliberate game and put 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.040 it on an ad K floppy and then get it 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.640 to the user who it's kind of a challenge and 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.120 how do you do pictures given that there's no place 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.040 to storm and even memory I think on the original 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.440 Apple two was only sixteen K and memory, so it 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.000 was it was kind of a challenge that No for marketing, 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:05.200 I think they were only what was the name fifteen 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.800 stores in the United States selling computers at that time, 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:11.760 so really selling was pretty easy. He was tapped the 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.880 stores and there was so much thirst for games that 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.160 you know, they do anything to get the games. They 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.680 because they wanted to sell the computers. You can sell 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:27.000 the computers without the software, and so we packaged them 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.120 up and to sell to the public. Um. Yeah, it's 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.000 funny that the retailers didn't complain about is going direct. 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.640 But we did run some ads and had had our 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.440 home phone at the time and people had called place 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:41.520 orders and then they had put them in a box 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.520 and go to the post office and shipping and at 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.880 the company. I mean, the company was gone so fast 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.080 in those days that you know that that really was 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.880 a short time stand. I think from m when we 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:57.800 realized the company was going to be a hit, and 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:04.120 quit my job and moved to Ysemity and we bought 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:07.000 a home there and looked there and started selling and 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.720 going back and forth to the post office to ship 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.920 to When we rented an office and hired people, it 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.400 was about a three month or four months span. I 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.800 mean it was you know, it was literally exploding and 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.520 every day, you know, sales were um way. Yet from 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.040 the fire day getting rid of our personal phone number 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.960 and all the ads happened happen pretty quick. Even the 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:33.400 original companies of pustry House, I think had our our 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:38.440 home plown for the end. Any questions call. So yeah, 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:43.080 those were different times. Yeah, I can't imagine anyone taking 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.320 those kind of pains today that would have been Uh, certainly, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.160 it was certainly an interesting approach, and the fact that, 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.040 of course the industry was so small at the time. 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.760 I mean still, I'm sure you're getting calls around the 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:59.280 clock all the time, but at least it wasn't something 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.959 where you're talking about a game launching and then getting 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.640 a million sales right off the bed. It was in 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:10.160 the thousands, which at that time was amazing success, especially 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.280 when you look at the install base. There really weren't 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.160 that many personal computers out. This is in the era 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:21.120 where it was just emerging from that hobbyist market and 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:25.679 starting to get creep into into more of an average 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:30.160 consumer kind of household. But that was a very gradual process. 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.920 And around the same time, while you guys had your 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.760 early years over at Sierra, there was something going on 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.760 with the home video game market on the console and 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:44.319 where there was this glut of various types of consoles 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.960 that were on the market, and then we know that 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.800 that eventually kind of capitulated into the video game crash 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.199 that happened around three And from what I understand, there 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.360 was a similar kind of rough patch for software for 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.319 computer about a year later, and uh, and I imagined 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.520 that those early years there were some some real ups 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.679 and downs over at Sierra kind of you know, I 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:14.520 don't remember ever a softness in computer software. There was 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.840 you know, kind of a period of wild growth and 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:23.800 he sees and then the video game industry was, you know, 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:27.160 kind of allowed. The personal computer industry is probably going 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.920 from zero to ten raid and revenue. The video game 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.719 industry left from zero to a couple hundred millions, though 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.480 it was growing much faster, and we got interested in 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.360 the video game market and shifted a lot of development 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.320 resources over the video games just as the video game 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.920 market collapsed. And that kind of left is with no 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:56.880 product for personal computers and yeah, and just people focused 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:00.360 in the wrong place. So plus with a lot of 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.920 money to buy cartridges and fund the development of the 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.559 video games, all of which was wasted. This is the 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:11.440 era when people were bearing EP cartridges out in the desert. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:17.280 And yeah, they caught us and we went from I 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:21.319 think a hundred and ten employees to twenty employees almost overnight. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.000 And Albert and I had to borrow on our credit 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.160 cards and get a second on our home and everything 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.880 in order to pay their rent and keep us in business. 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:37.280 And but then we got lucky in that I showed 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:42.000 IBM I guess prototypes and games that we were thinking 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.319 about and um and also a work process or people 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:49.559 forget that we were We did an amazing work processor 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.560 at that point in time that was graphically based and 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:57.439 IBM was impressed and gave us some nice advanced money 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:02.040 towards the products. And it's time. It was a weird world, 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.800 and the IBM was worried about being broken up by 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.640 the government is monopoly. So when they would give us 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.760 development financing, they also had assigning this agreement saying that 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.240 we agreed not to sell the them exclusively. They were 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.880 they were in kind of weird mode that they said, okay, 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.440 we'll come the development. You can sell the product us, 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.000 but we also have the promences still sell at our competitors. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.400 And we said sure, and they released their machine. The 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.480 PC JR was bombed and we put the same software 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.560 on the and the thousand from Radio Shack and it 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.960 was a big bit and so it was kind of 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.800 strange and that IBM that bringing the company back to 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.720 life in order to from software that radio shack and 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.720 asked me a lot of money. But but that was 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.160 that was good and so it wasn't really a sack 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:01.400 in the personal computer business. It was more of a Um, 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:06.160 we had shifted resources and that market collapsed and then 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.320 we had to refocus. But that we did and we 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.960 never really had another tough match after that. Yeah, it's 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.160 great that you were able to pivot like that. It's 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.320 a you know, it says a lot about a company 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.600 that had already experienced a great deal of success still 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:24.120 being nimble enough to recover after after a huge shift 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.160 in the market. There we've seen companies, many companies go 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:33.280 under when they were encountering similar circumstances. Uh. I assumed 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:36.480 that the big software piece, the big game piece that 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.600 was going to the PC junior into Tandy was the 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.880 beginning of the King's Quest franchise. Is that correct? Yep. 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:49.760 Kings One was kind of our first animated adventure and 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.040 was huge. I mean, it's hard to believe looking back 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.520 at it now, that's pretty clucky, but um, there was 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.560 nothing else like it in the market, and um, and 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.000 and so little competition. I mean, in a world in 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.520 which there's you know, ten or twenty games released to hear, 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.200 it's easier to break through than when there's uh, you know, 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:17.080 two's five thousand games released to do today and you 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.880 know most of its bomb. But in those days it's 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.760 fairly easy to get a exposure. And you know, Scare 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.080 was there first, which it was kind of an extra 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.960 edge and plushily. We did a lot of a lot 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.680 of cool stuff. Yeah, King's Quest was really innovative in 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.760 the sense that it had this ability where you would 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.680 have objects within the frame of the picture that you're 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.280 in the area that you're walking around, and you could 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.840 actually walk in front of or behind different objects. That 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.360 kind of lad to describing it as a three D 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:49.800 sort of thing, because it wasn't just an X Y 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:54.600 access where your character is stuck along one plane of movement. 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.400 You actually had some depth in there, and that was 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.960 a big you know, just like adding the graphics into 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.920 text adventure. Now we have this animated adventure where you 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.080 can even walk behind different objects, and that was really 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.840 innovative at the time. And again, the focus on narrative 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.920 was something that I found really intriguing. You had all 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:17.879 these different puzzles and jokes and uh things that were 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:21.960 really challenging and caused gamers to think in different ways 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.040 in or to progress further, and it was again sort 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:30.320 of pushing the art form of gamemaking forward. One thing 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.160 I definitely wanted to mention so that my listeners could 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.399 get an appreciation for it is UH, doing research on 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.720 Sierra and looking at these teams that were working on 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.880 these different titles, it struck me how many women were 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.280 working on this as developers on these games, something that 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.240 was I think a lot of people think is was 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.200 unheard of really, but you had a lot of of 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.080 women heading up various franchises, whether it was King's Quest 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.240 or other ones. And UH, to me, that was a 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.159 very forward thinking approach to it was obviously you were 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.160 getting the right people for the right jobs and trying 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.959 to make sure that you continued, ah, you know, pushing 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.960 forward the the capabilities of your games and the narration 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.879 of your games. But I found that fascinating because it 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.280 wasn't It's not something I ever encounter and pretty much 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:29.960 any other tech company unless it was a conscious decision, uh, 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.240 in an effort to create more diversity within the workplace. 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:34.880 But this seemed like it was part of the culture 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.199 early early on. Yeah, I mean I don't know it 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:43.159 was a conscious decision. It was just looking for the 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:48.439 best person for the job. And yeah, I guess uh. 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:53.840 In non quoting roles it tends to be a lot 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.840 more evenly balanced. Quoders do tend to be male when 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.840 we have some female quoders, but certainly in the creative 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.960 and design and are everything else, it was far more balanced. 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.560 And I never tried to balance or tried for anything, 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:11.959 you know, it just kind of fell out the way 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:13.760 it fell out, and you look for the best person 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:18.560 for the job. So um, yeah, I can't say that 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:22.119 at least a explicit effort to try to do I 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:28.000 don't know, you coopportunity hiring anything like that. I really yeah, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.359 I guess it was just focused on don't be good games. 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.440 So we got a lot of great games in this series. 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.760 Like the King's Quest series, is extremely influential in the 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:41.119 storytelling adventure game genres. You could argue the fantasy genre 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.600 as well, so much so that we've seen some really 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.520 remarkable even spoofs of King's Quest. One of the ones 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.640 I think of is from the Brothers Chap who did 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.959 Homestar Runner and did a whole Peasants Quest kind of 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.520 take off of it, and it clearly relied heavily on 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.560 this knowledge of and familiarity with King's Quest. It became 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.800 kind of a um not just King's Quest, but the 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.200 other series as well that followed in a similar kind 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.119 of vein, like like a Space Quest. It really shows 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:17.879 that it had a huge impact on the culture of 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.000 gaming in those early days. Were there any particular times 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:26.800 during those the like the eighties era of Sierra where 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:31.960 you just were sitting back and just kind of marveling 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:37.280 at the impact that your products were having on the market. Well, 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.600 I mean, I guess to answer that question I want 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.919 is yeah, every day. It was really amazing. What mean 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:49.920 you nowhere to being um recognized everywhere? I mean, it's 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.679 stunning that. Yeah, we were kind of kind of celebriting 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:59.040 c in away and just because computers are growing so 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.840 fast and we were kind of at the center of it, um, 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:09.520 particularly as consumers. So um, yeah, I guess we're probably 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:13.399 even now. What's funny is that I don't think we 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.920 realized how much so that now we're twenty years later, 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.520 you know, since we sold the company and still people 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.600 remember see here online that you're talking to me. Is amazing. 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.600 It's twenty years after we did the game, the games 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.120 have we sold the company and retired, and there's still 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.840 people that you know we existed, So it's uh kind 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:40.040 of astounding. It's one of the things that I think 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.280 back on in my childhood are all the different games 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.480 I played. So it's clearly a huge impact on myself, 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:47.520 and I know several my listeners. I mean, I've I've 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.280 had people request that I cover Sierra multiple times. So 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:57.840 I'm very thankful for this opportunity. Um now in I 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.320 guess no, no, please, no. I was just gonna say that. 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.760 One thing people don't, I guess relate to now is 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:10.360 that because there hadn't been computers before and then there 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:13.119 were that people weren't sure what they would do, what 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:15.960 they were capable of, and there was this inferrent belief 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:20.000 that they were educational. So parents loved buying computers for 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.720 their kids, and Seeric kind of played into that in 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:26.399 a way, and that because our games are using Parson 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.360 and there was on screen texts to be read, parents 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:34.400 had no doubt that they were educational. And I think 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.359 most parents in those days the lead computers are good 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:39.840 for their kids, which is a little different than today, 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:43.200 when a lot of the games are kindalyticum shoot them 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.280 ups and kill people at the games, and I think 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:50.720 parents are not quite as enthusiastic about buying games for 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:53.280 their kids anymore. It's kind of a different kind of 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:55.720 game and as different, I don't know, just a whole 0:22:55.760 --> 0:23:00.320 different attitude any Anyway, hold on for one second. We're 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:03.320 just trying to get yoga video going on at PV 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:05.440 and I need be able to figure it out. But 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:17.560 one minute, I'll be back. In nine Sierra held its 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:21.720 initial public offering. And so you you transition from a 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.520 privately held company to a publicly traded company. How did 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:29.280 things change behind the scenes or was it essentially business 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.159 as usual that were there any kind of shifts in 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:35.359 the way you were doing things from before and after? Well, 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:40.280 you know, I guess the biggest thing was incredible stress 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:45.119 to hit numbers. The every every employee in the company 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:49.720 had stock options, and every employee in the company, maybe 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:53.200 not every employment company had stock options. I tend to 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:57.760 tended to getting to people that could really influence our growth, 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.359 so i'd be more of the development teams. Although we 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:06.159 were heavily stewed toward development. UM there were always at 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:08.119 all times, I'd say two thirds and more of the 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:13.040 staff were involved in creating product. So um, but everybody 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.480 have stock options, and people started watching the stock price 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.879 daily and the network would go up and down based 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.520 on the stock price and on the rocks. So obviously 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:25.880 all the mutual funds that held our stock and all 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:30.960 the individual people, and if fire stock went up, everybody smiled, 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:32.800 and if they went down, they were you know, they 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:37.919 were depressed. So and performance as a public company has 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:43.920 measured every ninety days, and a game hitting the quarter 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:46.399 not hitting the quarter would have a huge impact on 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:49.160 the top line, which would have an even bigger impact 0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:54.560 on the bottom line. And suddenly there was an incredible 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:57.280 push to get a date. I get a game out 0:24:57.280 --> 0:25:01.359 on a particular date, and um, you know, if you 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:06.280 look back at our numbers, there would be going along 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:09.600