WEBVTT - Tighter Chip Curbs and NY Tech Week 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:02.160 From Marhard. 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:06.760 We're Innovation, Money and Power Collie in Silicon Valley, NBN. 0:00:07.080 --> 0:00:11.120 This is Bloomberg Technology with Caroline Hyde and Ed Ludlow. 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.600 I'm Caroline Hyde Bloomberg's worldtad quarters in New York, and 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.520 I'm Med Ludlow in San Francisco. This is Bloomberg Technology 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:31.640 coming up the US. 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.519 It plans titan measures against China to restrict its access 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.320 to advanced chip technology. We're going to break down the 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:40.960 details and the market implications. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.559 And we have the latest updates from the Israel Hamass 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.120 war and discuss the role social media plays in delivering 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:48.800 up to date and accurate news. 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:50.919 Plus, we're going to kick off the coverage of New 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.920 York Tech Week as industry titans gather in the Big 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.160 Apple for a full week of panels, events and much more. 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:03.120 The top story is Bloomberg reporting expanding technology export curbs 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:06.560 to China in the semiconductor's space. It had a pronounced 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.560 impact in markets in Asia and Europe, ovin Night, also 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.800 in US pre market. Actually a lot of those names 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.800 are now markedly higher. But pay attention to the chip 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.880 equipment makers because that is a focus of these curves. 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.000 Let's get the specifics and bring in Bloomberg's Mackenzie Hawkins, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.320 one of the reporters on that Bloomberg exclusive and Mackenzie 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.200 Bloomberg sources are telling us these chip curbs are going 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:29.800 to be expanded, how so in what ways? 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.840 So these chip curbs are building on initial restrictions that 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.080 the Biden administration posed in October of last year, and 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.679 there's a couple venues for the tightening. So first, we're 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.319 going to see some additional restrictions on graphics chips sales 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:49.680 to Chinese companies and advanced manufacturing equipment sales to Chinese companies. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.600 And we're also going to see some tightening on potential 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.880 attempts by Chinese companies to avoid country specific restrictions by 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.880 routing their shipments through other countries. And the last thing 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.800 to keep an eye on is adding Chinese chip design 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.560 firms to a US trade restriction list that basically requires 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.840 overseas manufacturers to get a license from the US government 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:12.680 before filling orders from those companies. 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.520 McKenzie, what prompted this tightening? Is it well the Republicans 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.000 or is it Huawei? And late more recent events that 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.079 shows that maybe some of these cubs just all working. 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.840 So the US announced as initial rule in October of 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:29.919 last year and took a couple of months to get 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.760 key allies, particularly the Netherlands and Japan on board, and 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:35.919 they've been working on a final version of that rule 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.280 for a while. So this is not to be interpreted 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.600 as a reaction to the huge tech breakthrough in China 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.800 in August when Huawei released a smartphonem powered by an 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.920 advanced chip. But that has pretty much defined the conversation 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.320 in US China tech relations in the month and a 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.040 half since, and we'll be looking to the administration to 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.600 see what actions specifically they might take on Huawei and 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:58.959 its chip making partner. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.280 Snick indeed keeping a close eye on the implications, and 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.040 so too will of course, the Chinese, who have notably 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.840 said that they don't want this to be weaponized or 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.240 indeed politicized when it comes to technology and trade. Mackenzie Hawkins, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.760 great bit of reporting, me, thank you. Let's continue the conversation. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.280 Joanne Phoenie's with US partner and portfolio manager at Advisor's 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.680 Capital Management, with deep knowledge expertise when it comes to 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:26.600 semiconductors in the landscape and ultimately, is this ever an 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:30.840 efficient way of trying to curtail what is ultimately an 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:35.160 ability to make it home really advance chips in China. 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.680 It's never going to be efficient, you know, let's not 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.119 try to guess the ultimate goals of the US policy. 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.080 One effect likely though, is that it will slow down 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.800 China's ability to deploy really advanced chips for use in 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.000 AI oriented servers. 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.000 So it will slow China down now. 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:00.680 In the meantime, though it's harmful to to the US 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.600 companies that want to sell China those chips, you know, 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.120 potentially like in video that Fortunately, we're in a period 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.000 of time when there's such strong demand for AI capabilities 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.960 in servers that even if in Vidia loses some sales 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.479 in China because of more restrictions, it will likely be 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.760 able to sell them in the United States or someplace 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:20.560 else in the world. 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:22.760 So it'll slow China down. 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.239 But the horse has really left the barn in terms 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:29.360 of the ability of China to ultimately produce advanced chips. 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.679 They just can't do it in a lot of volume 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:32.200 right now. 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.320 But ultimately, over some years, you know, they'll be able 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.240 to do this because chip technology, you know, has reached 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.120 sort of the limits mostly of Moore's law, and so 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.000 it's hard for you know, our companies to stay ahead 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.240 when all China has to do is copy what we've 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:48.880 done so far. 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:51.240 Juanne, good to see you. 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.320 We're just showing the names actually now moving to the 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.359 upside in video and a m D on the GPU 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.719 or graphics side, and then the chip equipment makers LAMB 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.599 PLA also positive. You said that this won't slow China down, 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.240 but there's a refocus on the chip equipment makers, in 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:12.960 particular with those US based companies with exposure to China. 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.120 Is this more of a concern now than it was 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:16.000 to you yesterday? 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.400 Yeah, So you know, we've been avoiding exposure to most 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:23.479 of the equipment guys for a while because of these 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:25.960 tensions with China, and so you know, our position on 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.120 that hasn't really changed. We have some selective exposure, but 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.440 not to the major players like A Lamber applied. And 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.520 I think what happened earlier, right when when China saw 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.960 this coming, you know, and saw the timing of these restrictions, 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.160 they actually imported a boatload of equipment. 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.880 So they're pretty well positioned. You know. Again, it's going 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.080 to slow them down in terms of deploying. 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.600 Really high end AI based servers because they're not going 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.440 to be able to get all those chips, but they 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.120 have a lot of equipment from lithography out of you know, 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.640 the metalin from ASML to the etching machines to the 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.280 deposition machines, right so they can do an awful lot 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:03.640 right now with the equipment that they have. There are 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.520 always ways to get the smaller and smaller future sizes 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.560 to those more advanced chips using the older technology. It 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.640 just takes many more steps to get there. It's much 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.680 more expensive. So your question earlier ed, is it efficient. 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:18.960 It's not going to be efficient for China to make 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:20.960 these advanced chips, but they're going to be able to 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.760 make almost everything with the equipment they have except for 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.279 the most the very most advanced ships. And that's where 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.839 US policy, I think wants to be binding, and it 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.520 will be for a while until China can make further 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.920 advances in their own deployment of equipment or refinement of 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:37.360 the equipment that they already have in place. 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.560 Bloomberg's reporting that these expanded restrictions could come early this week. 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.240 For what it's worth, the US Commisces Department and National 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.039 Security Council declined to comment on the story, but a 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:52.360 Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman called this the US politicizing, instrumentalizing, 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.240 and weaponizing trade and tech issues. Our colleague me and 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.800 Mackenzie Hawkins pointed out that this is not sort of 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.000 an escalation from the US, It's a rethink of a 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.440 year long policy. Where do you stand on what this 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:07.080 is or is not the US doing? 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:10.240 So you're asking me to sort of put on a 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:11.160 policy walk head. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.880 I'll do my best. I mean, clearly, the US wants 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:14.480 to slow. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.720 Down China's ability to use AI and to develop AI applications, 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.760 particularly in the military, and so to the extent that 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.360 the US can succeed in that by restricting their access 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.160 to these most advanced chips and the equipment to make 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.760 the most advanced chips, the US will be successful. It's 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.960 not the first time that trade policy has been used 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:38.840 for things other than you know, tamping down illegal trade. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.840 I mean, clearly this is a political objective, not an 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.520 unfair trade practices response, and so you know, it's certainly 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:51.680 not something that's probably authorized under WTO rules. Nevertheless, under 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.800 national security reasons, clearly the US is pursuing the strategy 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.800 and it will be effective. It'll just slow China down. 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.320 But as many have been saying, we have also it's 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:04.880 only going to accelerate China's own investments in developing their 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.600 own capabilities. Now, we think they're a long way off 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.360 from being able to replicate what ASML has done or. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:11.240 What WEAM has done. 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:16.600 But again by repeating the processes that the intels and 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.239 ibms and global founderies and tsmcs of the world used, 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.360 SMICK can get to pretty close to some of the 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.680 most advanced chips, as they've shown in that Huawei chip 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:27.240 for example. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.760 Joan, we ask you sometimes to put a policy hat on, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.680 and to that point, do you try and take that 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:35.600 policy hat off when it comes to actually having exposure 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.320 to such companies? He said, how you've limited your exposure 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.400 to chip equipment makers because of some of the issues 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.440 with US and China. Well, what about an Nvidia that 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:48.040 at the moment can sacrifice Chinese sales? But ultimately do 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.160 you want to be out of companies that have such 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:51.120 exposure to China? 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:52.600 Yeah? 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.679 No, so right, So the investor hat, the portfolio manager hat, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:57.120 requires that you look at policy. 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:58.120 Obviously, you need. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.280 To handle have a little bit what is going to 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.280 be in the US interests, what they're going to try 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.200 to do, as well as sort of the economic outlook. 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.400 So you know, at ACM, at Advisor's Capital, what we 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.720 do is both the top down macro and political situation, 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:14.040 and we then build up the bottom up analysis of 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:15.000 companies by companies. 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.199 So in video is a great example, they have so. 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.600 Many different opportunities because demand is so strong right now 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.080 for AI capabilities in servers that. 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.160 We think if they lose a little bit from China, 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:27.400 they'll be able to make it up elsewhere. It looks 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:28.280 to us like. 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.200 They have kind of a waiting list, if you like, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.679 of companies that would like their most advanced chips. So 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.680 you know, China could potentially hurt in the longer run 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.520 if China is able to replicate the level and quality 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.080 of chip that Invidia could otherwise supply. But if they can't, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:45.240 and we don't think they'll be able to do that 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.080 for some years, China's going to have to be satisfied 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.880 with lower end graphics chips out of the likes of 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.760 Nvidia and amb So ultimately we don't think there's going 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.000 to be a big shift in spending by China, They're 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.200 going to have to be satisfied with lesser chips, even 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:01.120 more so than they were. 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.120 After last Octobers a level of. 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.160 Restrictions and Video will be able to sell again more 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.559 of its ultimately higher endships to US and European and 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.160 other Southeast Asian customers. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.120 To FOMI partner and portfolio manager and advisors capital management, 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:20.839 but also just long, long time. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.320 Researcher in the field of semiconductors. Thank you. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.560 Speaking of and sticking with chips in Video's H one 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.680 hundred GPU has been one of the technology stories of 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.559 the year. Before the Israel hamass war broke out. The 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.200 chip giant had planned on holding its AI summit today 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.960 in Tel Aviv, with insight into its AI strategy expected, 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.960 but then canceled the event. Bloomberg Technology visited in VideA 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:45.840 and took a look at what the H one hundred 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.720 GPU used to train AI models looks like in the 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:53.840 real world. This is an individual H one hundred GPU 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.520 or graphics processing unit in Videa's AI accelerator, but in 0:10:57.559 --> 0:10:59.520 reality it's not just a chip that comes out of 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.840 a plant. When we talk about the H one hundred 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:07.520 GPUs training AI models. We're likely talking about dgxh one hundred, 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:12.400 Nvidia's AI supercomputer. That's eight h one hundred GPUs combined, 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.680 capable of thirty two quadrillion floating point operations per second, 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.560 crazy computer performance. It's a server design, and this is 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.520 what it looks like under the lid. It starts with 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.200 an h one hundred GPU seen here in the form 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.360 of an SXM module. Eight individual sxms are topped with 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.959 heat six, designed to dissipate heat generated from running big 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.880 AI workloads. Those are connected on a single baseboard by interconnectors, 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.280 and that assembly alone weighs sixty pounds. Add CPUs and 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.360 other components, and a finished DGX system weighs almost three 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.320 hundred pounds. But the scale in the real world is 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.600 bigger still. Some of the most powerful large language models 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.800 are trained on the Nvidia DGX super Pod, that is 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.600 thirty two DGX eight one hundred systems combined into what's 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.880 called a scalable unit. At its absolute most mind modeling scale, 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.960 DGX Superpod can be up to sixty four scalable units. 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:10.079 That's more than sixteen thousand individual h one hundred GPUs 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.960 an AI company may use several superpods to train their LLLM. 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.640 In the end, the DGX infrastructure sent out to the 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:22.600 hyperscale cloud providers to put in their massive data centers. 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.000 I wanted to get my hands on an H one 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.920 hundred Caroline, but it isn't just this little chip. That's 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:31.559 the reality of what we're talking about. 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.360 You happen to do squatz squats to be able. 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.960 To I just wanted to demonstrate that in the real 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.280 world sometimes you have to deadlift what we're talking about. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:42.280 And I've already got a lot of flak for that 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:44.880 on the show, but check it out online. Really interesting 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:46.480 experience going down to Nvidia. 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.040 It's a great piece to just digest really what is 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.760 behind technology. We thank you for it. Meanwhile, coming up, 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:54.320 we are going to get serious and turn our attention 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.600 back to the latest in Israel and Hamas the war 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.840 and discuss the wall of social media during the times 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:27.880 of isis One. Next this is Bloombog technology. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.600 Mid ongoing war between Israel and Hamas. President Biden is 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.199 weighing a visit to nation. Want to get more in 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.440 the latest from the ground of bringing Bloomberg's Oliver Crook, 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.440 who's life for us in Tel Aviv. Biden's visit largely 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.600 speculative at this point. There are other leaders both from 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.720 North America and the EU coming to town. 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:37.959 What is the latest on the ground, Oliver. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.880 Yeah, so let's talk for us about the military action. 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.559 Over the weekend, we got sort of confirmation from something 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.000 that we've widely anticipated, but basically Israel saying that the 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.280 next stage of this war is going to involve a 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.120 ground operation of some kind, and that was sort of 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.120 confirmed over the weekend. Their focus right now has been 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.520 on the aerial assault. They have been absolutely pummeling Gaza 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.440 for at least the last week. They've had a few 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.200 evacuation passages a few hours where they say they're not 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.800 going to bomb major arteries so that people can move south. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.960 We had one today, yesterday and on Saturday as well. 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.839 And the main question on the ground there is a 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:14.920 question of AID. There is AID that is not really 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.520 being able to get through. There have been speculation all 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.200 day and reports about potentially AID being able to move 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.120 through the Egyptian border at the checkpoint at Rafa, but 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:25.000 that has not been. 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:27.200 Confirmed by US. 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.120 In terms of the diplomacy side, yes, we're expecting all 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.000 Off Schultz, the German Chancellor, to arrive tomorrow, and whether 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.880 or not Biden comes, you know, to try to again 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.080 as a sort of deterrent, but also to show the 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.600 support of the United States for Israel, which has been 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:42.400 fairly vocal at this point. 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.560 Meanwhile, I mean, you bring our attention to the human cost, Oliver, 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.720 and we appreciate it. Just talk to us about the 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.160 timing and time running out. According to Iran, at least 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.240 Auran's foreign minister really talking about and if we're going 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.720 to avoid some sort of expungeon to the conflict. 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:00.840 Yeah, so this has been we've been hearing from Iran 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.320 kind of on the sidelines of this for the last 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.880 few days. On Friday was sort of the first kind 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.320 of ominous threat. And then we had the other foreign 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.800 ministries today saying that the time for the political the 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.680 political solution is running out and the expansion of the 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.960 war to other fronts approaching is inevitable, they said in 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.200 on An X And again, this is part of the 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.440 whole reason that Lincoln has been going to uh Qatar, 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:28.680 the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain. This is where he 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:30.920 has been because it's in one side to get sort 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.600 of the back channels communicating with Tehran, but also deterrence. 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.000 We also have a second aircraft carrier fleet that is 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.440 coming to the Eastern Mediterranean. This is all about trying 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.360 to provoke that sort of deterrence. But it's not just Iran, 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.160 right So, just in the same way that the Israelis 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.160 saw all of the horror on their phones, they were 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.040 glued to it, the rest of the Arab world is 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.440 seeing the exact same thing on what's going on in 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.360 Gaza right now. And you've had protesters through the streets 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:56.480 throughout this process. 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:59.720 II thank you so much for most Oliver Krook there 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.600 with an latest on the ground from Tel Aviv, But 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.120 I mean lot of it just painted the picture there 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.840 of how much everyone has turned to social media in 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.280 this moment, and indeed, well the Uranian foreign minister actually 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.640 posting on x You want to understand really how people 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.600 are using social media and what they should be looking 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.200 at if at all nor A Benavidez is with us 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.160 just free press and or are You're a senior counsel, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.160 your director of Digital Justice and civil rights, and really 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:28.160 you run the organization's platform accountability, the digital civil rights 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:34.480 work there and how accountable ultimately are x, Meta, TikTok, Town, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.720 and bike Dance. How much are they looking for this 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.160 moment of responsible nurturing of what's being put onto the 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:41.080 platforms right now? 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.680 Well, thanks for having me, both of you. You know, 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:49.080 most of the major platforms have really failed the massive 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.600 stress test over the last week and a half. In particular, 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:57.720 Twitter or x now has created the perfect environment for 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.200 disinformation to thrive. And as your colleagues mentioned, people are 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.320 turning to social media now more than ever as their 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.360 primary way of getting rapid information. Most of us are 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.480 hungry to figure out what's going on on the ground 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:17.480 and whether it's family members, journalists, or others returning to 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.360 these platforms only to be met with a deluge of 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:27.560 mislabeled videos, images that are taken from other time places, regions, 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:32.160 et cetera. Ultimately, Elon Musk has shown that Twitter has failed, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.800 I think with a kind of grandeur. You know, his 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:40.119 bad decisions have literally led us to this moment. He 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:44.119 gutted critical teams as other platforms have, like Meta and 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:45.600 TikTok and YouTube. 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.440 Elon Musk has also changed the blue check. 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.479 Mark feature, which is in the scheme of all of 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:53.960 these swirling forces. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.520 One of the really big problems. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.960 It incentivizes people to now subscribe and they pay us 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.399 small fee, but their content gets boosted. So if you're 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.040 willing to pay that eight dollars, your content might be 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.760 featured in more people's feeds. He also needs add money 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.120 because advertisers have been fleeing the platform for a lot 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.160 of these reasons, and one of his incentives has been 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.919 to pay people for engagement and virality. 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.560 Yeah, it's crazy, Naura Nora. Just for our audience. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.919 X's response to this has been to basically call an 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.359 all hands on deck situation. They've told us here on 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:36.200 Limo Technology that all staff are focused on the Israel 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.240 hamass war. They've given us data on community notes action, 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.680 and for Meta's part, they have a special operations team 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.439 in place now with fluent Hebrew and Arabic speakers that 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.960 are basically working twenty four to seven to review content. 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.720 But at issue specifically seems to be video content, videos 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.520 purporting to show one thing when in reality they are another. 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.520 What is your view on the role video is playing here? 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.400 Video is one of the last frontiers. 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:11.200 It's really very difficult to moderate video content, and frankly, 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.520 Elon Musk pointing to community notes as a way for 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:19.040 users to do his job is inadequate. It's also inadequate 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.760 that a week and a half after the conflict escalated, 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.080 now is the moment that social media companies are pulling 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:26.879 their rapid crisis centers together. 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.240 That is days and days too late. 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.040 Citing to the ability to remove hundreds of thousands of 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:36.080 posts is also inadequate, because we have to understand the 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.520 environment here is there are millions and millions of posts 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.879 going out every day about this subject, and billions of 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.199 active monthly users trying to get that content, and so 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:49.280 the lack of teams, the lack of policies in place, 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.639 the slow to respond crisis centers are just not enough 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.440 to rain in the level of toxicity. 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.240 All right, Nora Benavidez a free Press thank you for 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:11.880 your time here on the show. This is Talking Tech 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.800 First up kPr raising seven hundred and twenty three million 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.320 dollars in Japan's largest listing in nearly five years, that 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.560 of chip equipment maker Kokutse Electric Shares a expence to 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.400 begin trading on October twenty fifth, plus Indonesia's biggest tech firm, 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.040 go To, plunged it's most on record earlier today after 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.560 revelations of a stock sale by a co founder, which 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.600 ignited a selloff, but go To recovered after anlis argued 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.280 the selloff was overdone and not some more supported by 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:46.120 Fundamental School. 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.760 Welcome back to Blue Meg Technology. I'm Caroline Hid in New. 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.960 York, Meed Lovelow in San Francisco, Cara A very quick 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:54.560 check in on the market. So we started the week 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.520 with the NASDA one hundred higher fi percentage point. Remember 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.720 we're coming off three straight weekly gains on the NAZAQ 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.720 one hundred amid all of the volatility of global markets, 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.199 worries about China's economy. We're ahead of earning season, but 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.399 two of those weeks we notched again of just like 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.439 a tenth of one percent, and that's inclusive of the 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.479 IPO window that we had, which hasn't done much to 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.600 give us sort of that much momentum to the upside. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:20.520