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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, I've got a black hole question for you.

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Speaker 1: Are you still hoping to catch and raise a black

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Speaker 1: hole as a pet in your backyard? I can't confirm

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Speaker 1: or deny that, But my question is what happens to

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Speaker 1: the stuff I put into the black hole? Is this

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Speaker 1: a question you already asked the folks at pet Smart. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know, like, say, if I drop a banana into

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Speaker 1: a black hole, what what happens to it? Is it

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Speaker 1: gone forever? My advice is don't do it? Which part

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Speaker 1: raise a black hole or throw a banana into it?

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Speaker 1: Because I may have done both already. What's the difference?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you feed a black hole, it will grow,

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Speaker 1: and a growing black hole will eat more, and eventually

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Speaker 1: it will eat your house and then mine. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: it's not a good idea to use a black hole

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Speaker 1: to make banana's booties. Officially, no, not a good idea. Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm poor. Hey, I'm a cartoonist and the creator of

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Speaker 1: PhD comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and

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Speaker 1: I have never created a black hole to my knowledge.

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Speaker 1: How do you know, Daniel? Maybe you do it in

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Speaker 1: your sleep by accident. Hey, I can't be responsible for

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Speaker 1: all incidental black holes I accidentally create, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's got to be some legal principle there. Do you

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Speaker 1: ever take homes any work by accident, you know, like

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Speaker 1: you guys suddenly bring home some particles or some black

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Speaker 1: holes that were created at the LHC. Yeah, sometimes I

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Speaker 1: go home with a few extra protons in my pocket.

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Speaker 1: Nobody even notices that doesn't sound good. But welcome to

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Speaker 1: our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, in which we tell you all

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Speaker 1: about the mysteries of the university, incredible cosmic questions that

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Speaker 1: still make scientists puzzled, the things that we all wonder

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Speaker 1: about this incredible, beautiful universe that we live in that

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Speaker 1: we all desperately like to understand. Yeah. I take home

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Speaker 1: work all the time, Daniel, because I work from home

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Speaker 1: my cartoonist. So I think you take your home to

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Speaker 1: work then, don't you You know the tomato tomato, it's

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Speaker 1: all the same thing. But that's right. This is our

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Speaker 1: podcast about the universe and all the amazing and mysterious

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Speaker 1: things that are out there for us to discover. That's right,

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Speaker 1: all those weird things floating in the cosmos doing strange, violent,

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Speaker 1: incredible stuff and our attempts as lowly humans to understand them.

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Speaker 1: Is it really possible to unravel the mysteries of the

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Speaker 1: universe and lay them out inside a human mind. We

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Speaker 1: will find out today and tomorrow and the next hundred

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Speaker 1: episodes of our podcast. Yeah, because you know, it sometimes

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Speaker 1: feels like we're building this model of the universe kind

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Speaker 1: of like we're building a whole universe kind of inside

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Speaker 1: of our heads and our physics theories, almost like a hologramma.

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Speaker 1: That's right. It's incredible to imagine that the whole external universe,

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Speaker 1: if it even exists, might be describable inside in mind, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you could represent it somehow in terms of arrangements

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Speaker 1: of neurons, right, and as I think the kind of

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Speaker 1: idea that makes people think, like maybe the entire universe

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Speaker 1: is actually just a projection of some other kind of

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Speaker 1: physical arrangement. Right. Yeah, I've always wondered like maybe our

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Speaker 1: brains just aren't equipped to like understand the universe. Do

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Speaker 1: you ever wonder about that? Oh, I'm almost certain that

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Speaker 1: we are not capable of understanding the universe at its

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Speaker 1: deepest level. So are we doomed to always not know

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Speaker 1: the universe. I think there's never going to be a

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Speaker 1: point where we're satisfied that we think we understand and

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Speaker 1: you know, imagine the kind of super intelligence that would

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Speaker 1: be necessary to like fully grasp with the universe. I

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Speaker 1: think about your dog. Your dog is intelligent, but it

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Speaker 1: certainly doesn't understand all the physics of the universe. And

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Speaker 1: so compared to some super intelligent aliens out there, we

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Speaker 1: are as small as dogs, and there's no way that

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Speaker 1: we could understand the universe at the level that they do.

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Speaker 1: And so you essentially have to be infinitely intelligent to

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Speaker 1: understand the whole university thing. And couldn't infinite intelligence exist

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Speaker 1: in the universe that that would be so that would

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Speaker 1: be a lot. It would create an intelligence black hole

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Speaker 1: inside its mind because you can't store that much information

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Speaker 1: or that much smart in a small space. Man, we've

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Speaker 1: just covered dogs and black holes and like the first

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Speaker 1: three minutes and including brains. But yeah, so we talked

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Speaker 1: about all of the mysterious things, and one of the

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Speaker 1: favorite mysterious things that we like to talk about our

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Speaker 1: black holes because they're so mysterious and it seems like,

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Speaker 1: you know, that there were these black pockets in almost

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Speaker 1: their own universes, and it seems like anything you throw

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Speaker 1: into it can never ever come out. And they're especially

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Speaker 1: wonderful and fascinating because they came out of the human

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Speaker 1: mind initially. It's not something we saw in the universe.

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Speaker 1: It's an idea we had. We said, if the laws

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Speaker 1: of physics are the way we think they are, then

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Speaker 1: these things should exist. So we like mapped something inside

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Speaker 1: our minds out into the universe and then went out

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Speaker 1: and actually found them. I mean it's incredible, right that

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Speaker 1: think that our understanding the universe could be so sophisticated

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Speaker 1: and impressive that we can predict crazy new bonker stuff

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Speaker 1: out there which turns out to be real. I think

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Speaker 1: that's really impressive. Yeah, yeah, good jobs, physicists. Even though

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Speaker 1: we are dogs compared to intelligently nothing against dogs. Of course,

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Speaker 1: dogs very smart. That's why I chose them physics example,

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Speaker 1: and not cats. Right, I think cats are smarter. They're

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Speaker 1: not smarter than dogs. Man, you cannot train a cat.

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Speaker 1: That's proof number one. That's cats are not smarter than dogs.

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Speaker 1: Maybe like cats are mathematicians and dogs are physicists. Would

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Speaker 1: you say that's a fair, fair comparison. Well, if you're

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Speaker 1: saying that dogs are smarter than cats, that I agree

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Speaker 1: with you. Masticians are just sneakier, that's right now. But

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Speaker 1: black holes are a fascinating mystery and one that began

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Speaker 1: inside the human brain, but one that we still don't

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Speaker 1: really understand. I mean, we found them, we see them

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Speaker 1: out there, but it's a continuous source of mystery and

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Speaker 1: puzzlement for people everywhere and for scientists. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: amazing that we've seen it, like we've found one, Like

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Speaker 1: they took pictures of one sort of last year, and

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Speaker 1: it's like it's real, it's there, you can see it,

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Speaker 1: and it looks like what we thought they looked like.

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Speaker 1: That's right. The picture of the black hole shows you

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Speaker 1: all the incredible gas swirling around it that's trying desperately

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Speaker 1: to avoid falling into the black hole and in the

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Speaker 1: process is bouncing around against all the other gas and

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Speaker 1: emitting lots of radiations. So we're not seeing the black

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Speaker 1: hole directly, you know, although we see a black spot there,

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Speaker 1: we're seeing mostly the swirling, chaotic, crazy gas that's surrounding. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I guess you're right, because I mean, we see the

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Speaker 1: black center, but there's nothing to see there because nothing

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Speaker 1: can come out, or at least that's the idea of

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Speaker 1: a black hole. And so the question then kind of

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Speaker 1: becomes what happens to the stuff that goes into it?

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Speaker 1: Is it gone forever or cannedy recovered? Yeah? Is that

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Speaker 1: stuff just like hanging out inside the black hole having

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Speaker 1: a great time with all the other stuff? Does it

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Speaker 1: get squeezed into some new form of matter? Is it

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Speaker 1: all in a singularity in the middle. It's of the

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Speaker 1: deepest questions in physics what's going on inside a black

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Speaker 1: hole and what happened to the stuff that fell in?

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Speaker 1: So today on the podcast we'll be asking the question

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Speaker 1: those a black hole destroy information? I guess that's an

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Speaker 1: interesting question because you know, it's kind of like asking

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Speaker 1: what happens to stuff that goes in, Like does it

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Speaker 1: get destroyed like obliterated? Does it become pure energy, unadultered,

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Speaker 1: unfiltered energy that you can't make out what it is?

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Speaker 1: Or does it you know, does a cork stay a

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Speaker 1: cork inside of the black hole? And does it still

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Speaker 1: fly around and doesn't even know it's in a black hole? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean, are you wondering about what happened to that

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Speaker 1: banana you dropped into your black hole. I'm still wondering

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Speaker 1: about my banana, Daniel. I want it back. My dog

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Speaker 1: needs today. Do you like eating bananas when they're black,

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Speaker 1: because that's probably what happened to your back. You mean

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Speaker 1: it turned into a movie basically. Basically, But it's a

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Speaker 1: fascinating question, like when something goes into a black hole.

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Speaker 1: Is a black hole like a cosmic hard drive? Does

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Speaker 1: it like just compress everything into some new arrangement but

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Speaker 1: effectively keeping track of all the particles that came in,

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Speaker 1: or is it actually deleting stuff from the universe, turning

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Speaker 1: into some new configuration that doesn't have any information about

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Speaker 1: what happened before it. That's a fascinating question. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so we have a lot to impact here about black

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Speaker 1: holes and information. But at first we, as usually, we

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Speaker 1: were wondering how many people out there had heard of

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Speaker 1: this question of whether black holes keep or destroy information?

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Speaker 1: And so, as usual, Daniel went out there and ask

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Speaker 1: people on the internet what they thought of this question.

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Speaker 1: That's right, So thank you to everybody who have volunteered

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Speaker 1: to answer random questions. If you're willing to participate and

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Speaker 1: like to hear your uninformed speculation on the podcast right

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Speaker 1: to us two questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com

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Speaker 1: YouTube can answer these random questions. Think about it for

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Speaker 1: a second, and what do you know about information and

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Speaker 1: black holes and what goes into them? Here's what people

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Speaker 1: had to say. I think the information diss inside a

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Speaker 1: black hole. My understanding of Hawking radiation is that when

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Speaker 1: a particle interacts with the black hole, information is lost.

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Speaker 1: Therefore the black hole behaves like a garbage disposal. Ah,

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Speaker 1: so I do know a little bit about this. So

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Speaker 1: I read a book by Leonard Suskin which was talking

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Speaker 1: about the black hole wars. Stephen Hawkins believe that they

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Speaker 1: did disappear. Information did disappear, and the Suskin said it didn't.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's started to do with holographic principle

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Speaker 1: that basically all the data stays on the event arising. Yes,

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Speaker 1: information disappears from black holes because they lose mass through

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Speaker 1: Hawking radiation. They're more like garbage disposes than hard drives,

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Speaker 1: since you can't retrieve any information that's stored in them.

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Speaker 1: Um my guests would be that once an object is

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Speaker 1: sucked into a black hole. It is obliterated into its

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Speaker 1: most smallest particles that exist, and those things float around

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Speaker 1: and mess around with other particles and probably no longer

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Speaker 1: resemble whatever it is that they used to make up planets, bananas,

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Speaker 1: bunnies or whatever it is. I think they like store

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Speaker 1: information and then eventually, in like trillions and trillions and

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Speaker 1: trillions of years, there's like hawking radiation that radiates, you know,

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Speaker 1: and out in black holes go away. As far as

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Speaker 1: I understand, physics falls apart inside a black hole. I've

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Speaker 1: read that information doesn't disappear as such, and that all

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Speaker 1: the information inside the black hole would be somehow readable

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Speaker 1: on the horizon. Whatever goes in there just gets squished

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Speaker 1: into a really tiny small space. So I'd probably say

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Speaker 1: they're more like a garbage disposal. What goes in doesn't

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Speaker 1: come out, I don't think so. I think it depends

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Speaker 1: at the center of a black hole is which we

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Speaker 1: don't know. If it's an infinite density single point, then

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Speaker 1: it's probably more like a garbage disposal. But if it's not,

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Speaker 1: then I would assume information can enter it and just

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Speaker 1: gets trapped. I'm gonna equivocate on this, and so I

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Speaker 1: shall leave it to my learned colleagues Daniel Watson and

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Speaker 1: Hua Champ perhaps to answer that all so, I don't

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Speaker 1: think that information disappears into the black hole. I think

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Speaker 1: information is recorded on the edge of black hole. Information

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Speaker 1: cannot disappear, like energy cannot disappear. All right, not a

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Speaker 1: good outlook for what happens to stuff that goes into

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Speaker 1: the black hole. Nobody nobody thinks it's hanging out happily inside.

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Speaker 1: Nobody thinks that you're gonna eat that banana. I like that.

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Speaker 1: There's basically every answer here. Information disappears, information doesn't disappear,

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Speaker 1: information is radiated out, and they're basically garbage compactors. That's

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Speaker 1: a wonderful variety of answers here. Thank you to everybody

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Speaker 1: who participated, a wonderful variety of analogies here, Like is

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Speaker 1: a garbage compactor? Is it a garbage disposal? Is it

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Speaker 1: a recycling being? I don't think the universe recycles. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's like plastic in this black hole. Please,

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Speaker 1: And you know what, if black holes are just the

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Speaker 1: universe's compost, interesting they could be right. They break stuff

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Speaker 1: down and maybe they store it for later for a

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Speaker 1: universe garden, a star garden or story for never that's

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Speaker 1: maybe the problem. Well, until the universe collapses and then

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Speaker 1: everything gets too cycled. Right, that's a very optimistic view

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Speaker 1: of what's going to happen to your banana. Well, this

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Speaker 1: is an interesting topic, and so let's jump right into it.

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Speaker 1: This might take a while because some of the things

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Speaker 1: that we need to talk about include information and quantum mechanics.

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Speaker 1: And so before we sort of get into the idea

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Speaker 1: of what happens to information that goes into a black hole,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about kind of information in general and how

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Speaker 1: that works in a quantum reality. That's right, because one

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Speaker 1: of the mysteries of black holes is what happens to

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Speaker 1: the information that goes into them. And so first we

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Speaker 1: have to understand, like what is information and what does

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics say about that information? Right? So, information is

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Speaker 1: kind of like the arrangement of things, like the physicist.

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Speaker 1: Information is not like ones and zeros or it's not like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know a file or a number. It's more like

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Speaker 1: the arrangement of things, right, Yeah, And it can be

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Speaker 1: represented as ones or zeros or you know, things you

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Speaker 1: print on a piece of paper. But fundamentally, it's the

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Speaker 1: arrangement of the particles. It's really it's the quantum wave

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Speaker 1: function that tells you where the particles are or where

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Speaker 1: they are likely to be, and how they are interacting.

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Speaker 1: Remember that everything, me and you and bananas and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff are made out of particles, and we're all

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Speaker 1: made out of the same particles. So the thing that's

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Speaker 1: different between you and lava and hamsters and bananas is

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Speaker 1: not the stuff you're made out of. That's really the

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Speaker 1: same stuff that everything is made out of. It's how

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Speaker 1: that stuff is put together. It's like if you had

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Speaker 1: a book of recipes and they all had exactly the

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Speaker 1: same ingredients, just had different arrangements like where you put

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Speaker 1: the stuff. That's literally how things in the universe are built.

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Speaker 1: And so what we mean by information from a physics

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Speaker 1: point of view is just that is how the particles

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Speaker 1: are put together to make this versus that, right, And

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Speaker 1: it's also kind of the history of them a little bit, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you can make a banana cake and I can

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Speaker 1: make a banana caig, but they're going to be different

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Speaker 1: bana caggs depending on you know, what the size of

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Speaker 1: the pan I use, or whether I put in a

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Speaker 1: little bit more of this, or a little bit more

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Speaker 1: of that, or how I poured it. They're bothing that

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Speaker 1: tastes like banana aig, but they're gonna be different banana

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Speaker 1: caigs because they were arranged kind of with a different history.

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Speaker 1: And that's right. So our two banana cream pies both

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Speaker 1: have information about what happened to those bananas, how they

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Speaker 1: got there, how they originally were developed and grown and

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Speaker 1: blended up and and turned into the banana cream pies.

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Speaker 1: Because our two banana cream pies are not identical, they

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Speaker 1: contain information about how they got there. Their arrangements are

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Speaker 1: unique because only one way to create that particular banana

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Speaker 1: cream pie. And so you could run the clock backwards

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Speaker 1: and figure out where everything came from in your pie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I think that kind of what you're saying is

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Speaker 1: that it's like, it's kind of like if you're playing

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Speaker 1: billiards or some thing, if you see all the balls

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Speaker 1: kind of arranged in a particular way on the table,

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Speaker 1: you can sort of backtrack how they all got to

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Speaker 1: how billiard balls usually start. That's right, And that's what

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Speaker 1: we mean when we say quantum mechanics does not destroy information.

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Speaker 1: It says that you can tell how you got to

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Speaker 1: where you are. So, just like you said in the

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Speaker 1: billiard balls example, if you see balls moving on the table,

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Speaker 1: you can tell how you got there. You said, well,

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Speaker 1: this must have happened in a certain way. You know,

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Speaker 1: Bob must have hit Alice's ball and it bounced off

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Speaker 1: this wall, etcetera, etcetera. There's only one way to get

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Speaker 1: to this exact particular arrangement. And so because information is

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Speaker 1: not destroyed, it's all the information you need to figure

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Speaker 1: out how you got here is present in this configuration.

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Speaker 1: You could run the clock backwards, you can run a

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Speaker 1: physics simulation backwards and figure out exactly how you got

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Speaker 1: to hear or run it forward. Right like that, I

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Speaker 1: think you're saying that there's no ambiguity in the universe,

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Speaker 1: Like if you you come upon a crime scene, you

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Speaker 1: can tell exactly what happened, like a physicist could. If

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Speaker 1: you sort of rewind the universe and play the laws

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Speaker 1: of physics backwards, you can sort of reconstruct what happens

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Speaker 1: every time precisely. And it's really weird that this comes

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Speaker 1: up in quantum mechanics because you might think, yeah, quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics is not something that's going to give you certainty

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Speaker 1: that tells you you can know everything about the universe, right,

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Speaker 1: because quantum mechanics is something that feels like it has

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Speaker 1: a lot of built in uncertainty. And so what quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics tells you is you can always know the wave function.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing that tells you where the particles are

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Speaker 1: likely to be, not that you could actually know where

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Speaker 1: the particles are. In the same way, you can backtrack

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Speaker 1: the wave function. You can say if the particles have

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Speaker 1: a certain way function that says that they're more likely

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Speaker 1: to be on the left side of the table. Now

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Speaker 1: you can backtrack that and tell where they were likely

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Speaker 1: to be in the past, not where they actually were.

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Speaker 1: It's all about the wave function. It's all about this

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Speaker 1: evolving probabilities. The way so looking back into the past

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Speaker 1: is also there's also probabilities or do you know for

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Speaker 1: sure where the party like if like if I see

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Speaker 1: an electron and I measure, you know where it is

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Speaker 1: and where it's going to the best degree that I

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Speaker 1: can can, I tell you where it was before and

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Speaker 1: how fast it was going. No, you can only know

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Speaker 1: the probabilities. You can't collapse the wave function into the

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Speaker 1: past because that would have changed where it is today.

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Speaker 1: But if you know the way function today right, then

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Speaker 1: you can backtrack it into the past and you can

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Speaker 1: propagate it into the future. Any idea is that if

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Speaker 1: you look at any configuration of matter, you should be

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Speaker 1: able to tell where it came from. That's the core

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Speaker 1: idea that you have to understand. I see. So when

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Speaker 1: you talk about information, you don't mean like where things

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Speaker 1: are and where they're going, but you also kind of

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Speaker 1: include these quantum probabilities as information, Like that's also information

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Speaker 1: to physics, Yes, that's the actual quantum information, because they

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Speaker 1: don't know where the particles are. We really just know

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Speaker 1: these probabilities. And so like when we talk about like

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Speaker 1: quantum teleportation copying things, we're talking about copying not the

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Speaker 1: where the particles actually are, but their probabilities, because that's

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Speaker 1: really what the quantum information is. It kind of feels

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Speaker 1: a little unsatisfying on physicists because I feel I feel

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Speaker 1: like you're telling me that information includes not knowing kind

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Speaker 1: of in a way, you know what I mean, Like

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Speaker 1: information includes also non information. Yeah, what's the most information

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Speaker 1: that you can have about the universe is information about

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Speaker 1: the probabilities, and that information cannot be destroyed. Like we

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Speaker 1: don't know where the electron is. It's not like there's

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Speaker 1: a fact there that's not accessible to us. It just

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Speaker 1: isn't determined. But the way function is the thing that

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Speaker 1: tells you that it's more probable to find it on

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Speaker 1: the left side or the right side. That is totally determined.

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Speaker 1: And that's the level of quantum information we can have.

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Speaker 1: That's the most information that the universe allows you to

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Speaker 1: have almost right, Like you know you can know the

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Speaker 1: position and the velocity of a particle to a perfect

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Speaker 1: degree because of the uncertainty principle, because and that's just

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Speaker 1: the rule of the universe. The universe is like, nope,

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Speaker 1: you can't know everything all of the time everywhere. That's right,

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Speaker 1: And that's why quantum information cannot be destroyed, because the

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Speaker 1: probabilities cannot be destroyed. Like if an electron is somewhere

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Speaker 1: in your box now, then it is somewhere in your

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Speaker 1: box in the future. You're like, out of all the

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Speaker 1: probabilities in the future, they still have to add up

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Speaker 1: to one. And that's why if you run the clock backwards,

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Speaker 1: you should still get probabilities adding up to one in

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Speaker 1: the past, and if you run it back even further,

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Speaker 1: you should still get probabilities added up to one because

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Speaker 1: information is not destroyed can't just disappear, because your particles

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Speaker 1: don't just disappear, you don't know where they are. But

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Speaker 1: the probabilities can't disappear. The probabilities can slash around, but

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Speaker 1: they can't just go away. And so that's why we're

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Speaker 1: so fascinated about what happens inside a black hole, because

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Speaker 1: we're wondering, like, does the information inside a black hole?

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Speaker 1: Does it get deleted or is it still stored in there,

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Speaker 1: Like it's a black hole that has a banana versus

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Speaker 1: an apple, have something different inside it that tells you

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Speaker 1: that one has a banana, one has an apple, or

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Speaker 1: the actually deleting stuff. Interesting? Interesting, Yeah, I get. The

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Speaker 1: question is if I throw a banana and one black hole,

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Speaker 1: and I throw the equivalent apple the copy of that

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Speaker 1: black hole, are the two black holes different at the

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Speaker 1: end or are they basically the same? That's kind of

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Speaker 1: the question exactly, And quantum mechanics says they have to

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Speaker 1: be different because if they're not different, then you've destroyed

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Speaker 1: the information about which one got the banana and which

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Speaker 1: one got the apple in a corner. Quantum mechanics, and

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Speaker 1: this is a very deep, very bedrock principle. Information cannot

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Speaker 1: be destroyed. Like you go to a particle theorist and

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Speaker 1: you say, what if I prove the quantum mechanics doesn't

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Speaker 1: preserve information, that you can delete information from the universe,

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Speaker 1: then basically they just throw all their books away and

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Speaker 1: we have to start everything from scratch. It's that deeply

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Speaker 1: ingrained into physics. I guess it's like comparing apple black

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Speaker 1: holes to banana black holes. All Right, I'm starting to

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Speaker 1: feel a bit a little bit like a dog here, uh,

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Speaker 1: and not fully able to grasp all this stuff. But

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the nature of quantum mechanics. So let's

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Speaker 1: get into whether or not black holes can destroy this

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Speaker 1: quantum information, and if they can, then how do we

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Speaker 1: explain it? But first let's take a quick break. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about weather. Black holes can destroy quantum information.

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Speaker 1: And so Danny, you were telling me that quantum information

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Speaker 1: includes like the probability of all the particles in the universe,

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Speaker 1: or at least a bunch of particles that you're looking at,

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Speaker 1: and you're telling me that quantum mechanics says that you

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Speaker 1: can't destroy this information, Like you can't just forget about it,

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Speaker 1: Like it's always kind of encoded in how the particles

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Speaker 1: are arranged or what they're doing. That's right. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like the central premise of that TV show Devs,

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Speaker 1: where they try to reconstruct details about what happened two

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Speaker 1: thousand years ago by getting really fine data about the

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Speaker 1: molecules in the air and the earth and just backtracking

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Speaker 1: it two thousands of years. The ideas that the evidence

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Speaker 1: for the past is still with us here in the president,

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Speaker 1: that if you had incredible computing power and enough data,

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Speaker 1: you could reconstruct any event. It's like the perfect crime novel. Wow,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, Like can you look at a banana

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Speaker 1: and tell what the plant the griod looked like? Kind of,

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Speaker 1: that's right, the ideas that no two bananas are identical,

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Speaker 1: but somewhere in that banana there's a clue about where

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Speaker 1: it came from and what it was like and whether

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Speaker 1: it got sun on a certain day, and all that

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Speaker 1: information is somehow encoded in the banana. They're making me

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Speaker 1: feel guilty about eating a banana. You're like you're destroying

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Speaker 1: a perfect, unique gem in the univers just becomes part

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Speaker 1: of who you are. Right, if I took you apart,

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Speaker 1: I could figure out exactly how many bananas you had

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Speaker 1: last week and what happened to them, and the stars

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Speaker 1: that burn the potassium that's in that banana, Like all

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Speaker 1: that history is encoded in that banana and then in you. Well,

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Speaker 1: and also when I flushed down the toilet, technically you

430
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: would have to go down the toilet. That's a whole

431
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: different maybe podcast episode. That's a different kind of black hole.

432
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 1: We're not going to dive into different um. So let's

433
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: get into now. Quantum mechanics says that you can destroy

434
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: quantum information. And so what happens when you throw it

435
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: into a black hole? Like does it get destroyed or

436
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: does it stay around inside of the black hole? That's

437
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: the big question. Yeah, and so on the surface you imagine, well,

438
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 1: black holes suck in information. Right, you put something into

439
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: a black hole, it can never leave, So therefore it's

440
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: information is stuck inside the black hole. That doesn't mean

441
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 1: necessarily that it's destroyed. Right, Like you put a banana

442
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: inside a black hole, you could still be in there.

443
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: The particles that made it up could be like squished

444
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: and whatever, but they just got quantum mechanics aified into

445
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: a new arrangement. And just like when you ate the

446
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: banana or when it grew, it's information could still be preserved,

447
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: but be stuck inside the black hole, you know, like

448
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: a like a neutron star kind of breaks everything down

449
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: to the cork level, but all the courts are still

450
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: kind they're bunched together precisely, and if the information is

451
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: still in there, it's stuck inside the black hole. Right,

452
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: nothing can ever leave the black hole. But also you

453
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: can't get any information from the outside about what's in

454
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: the black hole. The only things you can know about

455
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: a black hole are its mass, whether it's spinning, and

456
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 1: whether as electric charge. There's this crazy theorem in physics

457
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: called the no hair theorem that says that's all you

458
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: can know about a black hole. You mean, like the

459
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: overall charge of it, Like the black hole can have

460
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: a charge to it. Yeah, if you have a black

461
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: hole with no charge, it's neutral, and you throw an

462
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: electron into it, then it has a charge and you

463
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: can measure that charge. You can know whether there are

464
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: charged particles inside a black hole. Oh, I guess you

465
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: can measure how much it pulls proton through or something

466
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: like that, just like you can measure it's mass. You

467
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 1: throw a banana into a black hole, it got heavier.

468
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: You should be able to measure its mass by measuring

469
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: the gravitational field around a black hole. Can also measure

470
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: whether it's spinning. But that's the extent of the information

471
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: you can have, right. You can't tell what's inside. You

472
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: can't tell the detailed history of the banana from the outside,

473
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: so you can never get that information back out, right.

474
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: So that's step number one. Is the information, if it

475
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 1: still exists, is inside the black hole and can never leave, right.

476
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: But that's not the same as destroying it. It's just

477
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: kind of storing it. It's like inside if somewhere I

478
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: can never that's right. And if black holes live forever,

479
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: this wouldn't really be an issue. Would be a question of, like, well,

480
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: what happens inside the black hole? It's fascinating, but we

481
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: believe that probably information is just in there, sort of

482
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: cut off from us forever, but still existing. Right, it's

483
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: still having its own little happy life inside of the

484
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: black hole. That's right. The banana party, that's where bananas

485
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: go so that you don't eat them. Right, it's the

486
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: only safe space in the universe. They don't have to

487
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: worry about training black because everything is black inside of

488
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: a black hole. That's right. But then Stephen Hawking came

489
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: along and he showed us that black holes actually they

490
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: can disappear, right, Yes, you can make it black hole disappear.

491
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: It can evaporate. Yeah, black holes they evaporate. They give

492
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: off very small amounts of radiation, little particles here there.

493
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: For very big black holes, this happens extremely slowly. But

494
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: as black holes get smaller, they evaporate more quickly, and

495
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: then they can actually disappear. They can poof out of

496
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: existence as they give away their last little bit of energy.

497
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: Even like giant black holes will eventually disappear, like once

498
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: all black holes suck everything in the universe, Eventually they

499
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: will evaporate. Right, that's right. A black hole, if you

500
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: do not feed, it will give off Hawking radiation and

501
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: get smaller. Right. It gives off its energy, and that

502
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: energy comes from its mass, and so therefore it gets smaller,

503
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: and the smaller it gets, the more radiates. So giant,

504
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: massive black holes they might have lifetimes of trillions of years.

505
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: But yes, eventually they will radiate away all of their

506
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 1: mass in terms of this hawking radiation and disappear, right,

507
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: And so then the question is what happened to the

508
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: information you put into it? That's right, what happened to

509
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: the information inside the black hole? Like you put this

510
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: banana inside the black hole. You trust the black hole

511
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: is going to keep your banana information safe. But then

512
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: you come back a billion years later and the black

513
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: holes gone. You're like, what what happened to my You

514
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: deleted my banana from the universe. You know you can't

515
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: do that. Quantum mechanics says that's impossible. So the question

516
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: is what happened to the information? And you might be

517
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: tempted to think, oh, well, maybe it's somehow stored in

518
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: that hawking radiation, right, because the hawking radiation came out

519
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: of the black hole. But hawking radiation is very special.

520
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: It comes from the temperature of the black hole. It

521
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: comes from treating a black hole, like everything else in

522
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: the universe, is a thing that has a non zero

523
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: temperature which glows. And what's very important to understand is

524
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: that the hawking radiation depends only on the mass of

525
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: the black hole. Like how much hawking radiation you get

526
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: and which particles you get are determined by the mass

527
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: of the black hole and literally zero else, So none

528
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: of the information that's inside the black hole can possibly

529
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 1: leak out in hawking radiation. Well, I guess it's kind

530
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: of like if you have a glass of water, if

531
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: you leave it out, it's gonna evaporate, but you can

532
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,239
Speaker 1: sort of trace what happened to the water. You can

533
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: trace the like the vapor of what molly kills as

534
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: it least the glass of water. Like that's okay, Like

535
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: that's preserving the information. That's right. But a black hole

536
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: doesn't evaporate by having the stuff inside of it leak out.

537
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: It evaporates by almost like having the stuff at the

538
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: surface destroyed itself. Kind of that's right. And remember the

539
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: no hair theorem tells us that you can't get any

540
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: information out of a black hole. That none of the

541
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: configuration of particles inside a black hole, or the swirling

542
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: or non swirling, or the singularity or non singularity can

543
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: affect what's produced on the outside of the black hole.

544
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: So the Hawking relation cannot have any information about what's

545
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: going on inside the black hole. It's not like that

546
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: water vapor example. It's a good contrast because it doesn't

547
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: tell you anything about what happened inside the black holes.

548
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: This amazing sort of mysterious way to delete a black

549
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: hole without knowing anything about what's inside of it, right,

550
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: because the reason is not because of the theorem. The

551
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: theorem is sort of because of what's happening in the

552
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: physics of it, right, And it's yeah, the theorem describes

553
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: the physics of it right, right, And and what's happening

554
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: is that, like at the surface of a black hole,

555
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: you get this pair of particle and antiparticles kind of appearing,

556
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: and one of them goes into the black hole, the

557
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: other one goes out of the black hole, and that's

558
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: kind of how it evaporates. Happening at the surface of it.

559
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: It's not happening because of anything that's inside of the

560
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: black hole exactly, and it comes just from the mass

561
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: the black hole. As you say, virtual particles like positron

562
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: anti positron pairs are created near the black hole's edge

563
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: where there's a lot of gravitational energy, and then one

564
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: of them is given a boost from that gravitational energy

565
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: while the other one maybe gets sucked in, and because

566
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: it's given a boost from that gravitational energy, that energy

567
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: comes from the mass of the black holes. The black

568
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: hole itself is decreased a tiny little bit in mass,

569
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: and so it's stealing some of the energy from the

570
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: black hole without apparently taking any information from it. And

571
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: so that's the weird thing is that, like you put

572
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: information in a black hole, you can never get it out,

573
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: but then the black hole can disappear. So where did

574
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: the information go? Really, there's no information in that suckings radiation.

575
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: I mean, like, wouldn't it like where it happens where

576
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: there's these particles and antiparticles form and where the one

577
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: of them goes right and the other one goes left.

578
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that sort of depend on exactly what's going on

579
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: inside of the black hole. Well, the where the particles

580
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: are created is just quantum randomness around the black hole,

581
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: so that happens totally randomly, not depending on what's inside

582
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: the black hole. And then they're boosted from the gravitational field,

583
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: which is the mass of the black hole. So you

584
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: can know the mass of the black hole, and that's

585
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 1: what determines how these particles get boosted and whether they

586
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: go in the right direction, etcetera. But that doesn't contain

587
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: all the information. Like if you threw an apple or

588
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: an equivalently masked banana into a black hole, that would

589
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: give you black holes of the same mass, so they

590
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: would affect talking radiation in exactly the same way. So

591
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: the fact that one used to be an apple and

592
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: one used to be a banana is now irrelevant, which

593
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: means quantum information has been deleted all right, which is

594
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: kind of bad news for quantum physics, because you're telling

595
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: me that this idea that you can't destroy information is

596
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: fund mental to quantum mechanics. Maybe I really quickly, can

597
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: you tell me why it's so fundamental. I mean, remember

598
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: what we talked about earlier. The reason you can't destroy

599
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: information in quantum mechanics is because particles should always exist somewhere.

600
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: I mean, if you have a particle now, as you

601
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: exist somewhere in the future, it's quantum information cannot be destroyed,

602
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: like you don't know exactly where it is, but you

603
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: know what it's probability distribution looks like, and it should

604
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: have a probability distribution in the future also, and so

605
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: that can change as the universe moves forward, but the

606
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: information about should not be deleted anywhere. Right, Well, I

607
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: guess my question is, you know why not? Like why why?

608
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: Why would we quantum mechanics breakdown if I just suddenly

609
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: took some particles and deleted their quantum information? Like why

610
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: would the universe complain or with the universe care if

611
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: I had destroyed that information? All? Right? Well, mathematically we

612
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: look at the equations that describe a wave functions. We

613
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: have a wave function that tells us where particles are

614
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: likely to be you, and that moves forward in time.

615
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: There's an equation that describes how that happens. It's called

616
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: the shrouding your equation, and the shrouding your equation says

617
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: you can move information from here to there, but it's unitary,

618
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: doesn't ever destroy information. And if information is destroyed, that

619
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: means that wave functions can disappear. And that just doesn't

620
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: happen in the shorten your equation, and so we would

621
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: have to totally rethink the way quantum mechanics works if

622
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: that was to happen. It's like a bedrock assumption that

623
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: we've built into quantum mechanics. I see, it's like I

624
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: guess in quantum mechanics and wave functions, you know, these

625
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: functions don't don't just exist in the present and in

626
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: the past. They're all sort of tied together mathematically to

627
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 1: where they're going to be in the future. That's right,

628
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: So like if you destroy it in the future, then

629
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: you're really destroying it through all history. You don't have

630
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: a term for that in the equation. Yeah, And the

631
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: equations work the same way forwards and backwards in time,

632
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: and so if the wave function is ever destroyed, that

633
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: means that you couldn't go from a non existent wave

634
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: function backwards in time into the wave function you have now.

635
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: So this sort of this time and variance built into

636
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics. You can run the clock forward, you can

637
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: run the clock backwards. You should be able to move

638
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: backwards and forwards at all points. But if the information

639
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: is ever deleted, that means you can't move backwards and

640
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: forwards at all points. And the shrunning equation, the basic

641
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: assumptions on which it's built are totally wrong, and quantum

642
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: mechanics doesn't work, and we'd have to come up with

643
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: a new theory. It's not like the universe would puff

644
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: out of existence. Right, This is all human ideas about

645
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: how the universe might work. This is a basic assumption

646
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: we've built into quantum mechanics that we're pretty sure is right.

647
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 1: But black holes are telling us that they're doing something

648
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: that we thought was impossible. Man, there's such troublemakers, all right,

649
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: So we have a big unknown here. How can both

650
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: things be true? How could information never be destroyed according

651
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: to quantum mechanics and how can information be destroyed according

652
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: to black holes and hawking radiation? So let's get into

653
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: what could possibly explain this can prediction. But first let's

654
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: take a quick break, all right, Daniel, can information be

655
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: destroyed inside of a black hole? So quantum mechanics says no,

656
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: but kind of a black hole say yes. So what's

657
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: going on? Is quantum mechanics wrong or do black holes

658
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 1: just kind of destroy our conception of how the universe works.

659
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: This is a big puzzle in physics for a long time,

660
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: and it's such a big puzzle that like big folks

661
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: on both sides, like great brains on both sides of

662
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: the argument, had like public debates about it and even

663
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: made bets about the resolution of this. Right. Yeah, there's

664
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: a famous bed by between Hawking and Kip Thorne and

665
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: John Preskill. Right, that's right. John Prescille believed that somehow

666
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: the information was sneaking out of the black hole back

667
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: into the universe, that it was leaking out essentially where

668
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: Stephen Hawking and Kip Thorn they thought, know, the information

669
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: can't ever leave the black hole, and therefore it must

670
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: be lost from the universe, and quantum mechanics is wrong.

671
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: So they made a very public sort of bet about this.

672
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: All right, So they made this bed and did they

673
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: was one of im proven right? Well, they did come

674
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: to what they think is a resolution to this, and

675
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: so Hawking and Thorn actually capitulated on the bet in

676
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: public and said, all right, Prescott, we think you're right.

677
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: We think that the information somehow leaks out of the

678
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: black hole. So wait, physicists think that black holes don't

679
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: destroy information. That's right. So the idea now is probably

680
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: black holes don't destroy information. I mean, the general categories

681
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: of solutions are one, maybe quantum mechanics is just wrong

682
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: and we have to toss it all out and rethink

683
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: everything about our idea of the universe at the smallest scales,

684
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: like that's an option and hey, that wouldn't be so bad.

685
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,959
Speaker 1: It's not like everything unravels and we all go living

686
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: in caves or something. Just a bunch of physicist careers unraveled. No,

687
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: those are the best moments for physicist careers because like, wow,

688
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: that cracks open something deep that we thought was true.

689
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: Those are the revolutions in physics we live for. That's

690
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: why we're here to figure out what in the firm

691
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: and turns out to be wrong, because those are the

692
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: times when you can get a new glimpse onto a

693
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: new insight into the universe. I mean, wow, that would

694
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: be amazing. Right, So that's one possibility maybe quantum mechanics

695
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: is wrong um, And what are other possibilities black holes

696
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: are wrong? Another one is that like black holes, you

697
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: can think of them as storing this information, but that

698
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: they're also like connected to another universe. We've talked about

699
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: how maybe black holes are like doors to wormholes that

700
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: are connected on the other side to other places in

701
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: the universe. They could also be connected to like separate

702
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: distinct universes that we don't otherwise have access to. It's

703
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: a possibility. I mean, we're it's like a what if

704
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: on top of a wood if. But the idea is

705
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: that therefore the information could be in that universe, like

706
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: maybe the banana got sucked into the black hole and

707
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: then slur belong to the wormhole and it's living off

708
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: it's banana like days in that other universe. Now, even

709
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: when our black hole disappears, I see like somehow there's

710
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: a white hole on the other side that's spewing out bananas.

711
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: That's right, a banana hole. I think it's what the

712
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: people in that universe we call it like that. I

713
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: think they call it the magic banana fountain. They're like

714
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: whole cult surrounding it about how generous this banana fountain is.

715
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: You're like a god in that universe. You're like the

716
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 1: giver of bananas in that universe. I'm a legend. I'm

717
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: a legend in another universe. They're like, but please stop

718
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 1: throwing bananas in there with a bite taken out already,

719
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: I mean please. So that's one idea, Yes, that it's

720
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: information is not disappearing, it's just going somewhere else. Yeah,

721
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: but that's hard to really understand because then you can't

722
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: still really do quantum mechanics, like the information is effectively

723
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: lost to us, and so then we can't do quantum

724
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: mechanics of our universe, so it's not really Essentially, if

725
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: it's lost to us, it's a bummer. It's a bummer

726
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: because you know, is our wave function entangled with their

727
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: wave function if they're in another universe? Then no, And

728
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: so really quantum mechanics says, you can't lose any information

729
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: from your wave functions. So if you lose it to

730
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: a totally incoherent wave function, it's effectively lost anyway. So

731
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics says no to that. Very clever, I think,

732
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: awesome idea, which would be a great basis for science fiction.

733
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: Interesting like we're entangled with other universe. Yeah, but we

734
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't actually be entangled, right, That's the problem is that

735
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: our wave function isn't connected to theirs because it goes

736
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 1: through the wormhole. All right, So then what's the third

737
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: The third possibility is that maybe somehow that information is

738
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: actually imprinted on the Hawking radiation. So go back, that's

739
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: what I was saying, wasn't it that you were saying?

740
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: He shot me down? But now it seems like Stephen

741
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: Hawking agrees with me. That's right. This is known as

742
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: the Hawking thorn cham theory of the universe should be. No,

743
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: you're right, and you know, our understanding before this was

744
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: that it's impossible for the information to be in the

745
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: Hawking radiation for the very reasonable arguments that I gave

746
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: you five minutes ago, which I will now undermine. It

747
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: made me feel bad, Daniel, No, nor yeah, alright, So

748
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: here's why your idea was a good one. And you know,

749
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: whenever you have an apparent contradiction, you have a string

750
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: of logical arguments that leads you to something nonsensical, you

751
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: have to go back and read examined, like well what

752
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: about this one? Is this one? Are we really sure

753
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: about this? And try to find a hole in it.

754
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: And so the idea is that maybe somehow the information

755
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: about the banana you threw in is imprinted on the

756
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: hawking radiation. Well, how could that happen because once it

757
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: goes inside the black hole, the only information we can

758
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: get about it is how much mass it has, which

759
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: is essentially destroying the banana nous of the information. So

760
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: the idea is maybe it never really goes inside the

761
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: black hole, like maybe a banana when you throw it

762
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: into a black hole, spends eternity sort of on the

763
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: surface of the black hole. One. And this is actually

764
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: what what happens when you throw something into a black hole.

765
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: You never actually see it go in because remember, when

766
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: near a black hole, there's incredible gravity, and that slows

767
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: down time. Like you threw a clock into a black

768
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: hole and you watched it with a telescope, please from

769
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: very far away, you would see that clock ticks slow

770
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: down because the presence of mass slows downtime. Right. Yeah,

771
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: So to the banana, you're seeing, the banana gets frozen

772
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: at the surface kind of. Yeah. As it gets closer

773
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: and closer to this event horizon, time slows down more

774
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: and more, to the point where it slows down essentially infinitely.

775
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: And you can watch this banana for the whole time,

776
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: the lifetime of the universe. You will never see it

777
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: cross the event horizon. Oh uh. It's not like it

778
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: goes in and then the particles the photons can come out.

779
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: It's like it never goes in. Kind of from our

780
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: point of view, From our perspective, you never see anything

781
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: actually go into a black hole. Now it gets closer

782
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: and closer, and it gets redder and redder because the

783
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: light from that banana, which can still get to you.

784
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: Because the banana is not actually in the black hole,

785
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: it gets stretched also by the gravity and gets redder

786
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 1: and redd or longer and longer wavelengths. So what happens

787
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,959
Speaker 1: if you have trillions of years to hang out and watch,

788
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 1: is that banana falls in more and more slowly, gets

789
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: darker and darker, and eventually goes out past the visible spectrum.

790
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: You can't see it, and then you have to use

791
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: your infrared telescope to watch your very gently glowing banana. Right.

792
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: But I guess I thought I thought time was became

793
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 1: a singularity, only only at the center of the black hole.

794
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: You're saying that time actually stops at the edge of it. Yeah,

795
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: at the edge of the black hole, time slows down

796
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: essentially infinitely, like and that's for you. You're from the

797
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: outside point of view. You're watching the banana go in.

798
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: That's not the same thing as the banana experiences. Banana

799
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: can fall into a black hole, and it can totally

800
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: experience going past the event horizon, right, because time always

801
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: goes at one second per second for the person experiencing it.

802
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 1: We have a different story about what happens in banana

803
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: watching from the outside. So for us, the banana never

804
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: actually goes into the black hole for us. Interesting for us. Wait,

805
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: so it gets frozen at the surface forever. Yes, but

806
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: it gets stretched out right, It's not like just happy,

807
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: you can't go back and pick up your banana. It

808
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: gets stretched out and reddened and smeared over the surface

809
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: of the black hole. And essentially it distorts the event horizon.

810
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: It like changes the shape of the event horizon in

811
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: some way. And the ideas that maybe the banana changes

812
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: the shape of the event horizon differently than an apple wood,

813
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: or differently than another banana in a way that we

814
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 1: can see, or in a way that we will never see,

815
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: in a way that in principle preserves the quantum information

816
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 1: of that banana and can influence the hawking radiation produced

817
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: at that point instead of the event rise and being

818
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: a perfectly smooth sphere and now has little quantum wiggles

819
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: in it, and those quantum wiggles tell you about what's

820
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: been thrown into the black hole, meaning that you could

821
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: measure the hawking radiation and reconstruct whether you threw a

822
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: banana or an apple in exactly that the black hole.

823
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: You threw banana in would give you different hawking radiation

824
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: than the banana you threw an apple into, and that

825
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: it's encoded somehow and now in the surface of this

826
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: black hole, which contains all the information but everything that's

827
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: been thrown into the black hole. So you're not breaking

828
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: general relativity because you're not getting information but what's inside

829
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: the black hole, because in principle, all of this is

830
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: now encoded on the surface of the black hole. Right,

831
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: But the courts in the banana dude disappear or you

832
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: don't see them. You don't see them going into the

833
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: black hole. Like they're going to survive crazy experiences being

834
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: near a black hole and get torn apart and smash

835
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 1: and other stuff. So who knows what's going to happen,

836
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: But their quantum information should still be there. Everything that

837
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: happened to them is describable by quantum mechanics, and just

838
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: like being eaten or being turned into banana smoothie, their

839
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: history is still carried with me. And that's okay with

840
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, Like as long as the quantum history information

841
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: and information is somehow carried on, even if it's like

842
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: passed between the banana cork it passes on that information

843
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: to the hawking radiation. That's still okay, that's right. Did

844
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 1: you just create a new kind of cork, the banana cork.

845
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: We've got up cork, charm cork, banana cork. I thought

846
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: they already existed. No, but you're exactly right. Somehow, the

847
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: information about that cork that was inside your banana is

848
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: encoded on the surface of the black hole and influences

849
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: the hawking radiation that's produced. And therefore, if you like

850
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: gathered all the hawking radiation that came out of a

851
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: black hole, you could tell exactly what had gone into

852
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: the black hole in the whole lifetime of the black hole.

853
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: And this is weird because this is what they call

854
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: like the holographic principle, meaning like you know, you can describe,

855
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 1: like if the whole universe falls into a black hole,

856
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: you could at some point technically everything would be described

857
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: on the surface of the black hole, right, which is

858
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: like a two D surface. It's like a flat surface. Yeah,

859
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: it's sort of mysterious to say you can describe everything

860
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: that's happening in a three D space, like the inside

861
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: of a black hole, just by knowing information on a

862
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: two D space the surface of the black hole. So like,

863
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: how can everything inside a three D space be described

864
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: by the surface of that space. Well, that's what we

865
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: call a hologram. A hologram is a two D image

866
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: that's projected into a three D space, so it looks

867
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: three D. The entire hologram is determined actually by what's

868
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: happening on the surface. So the ideas maybe black holes,

869
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: the interiors of them are just holograms of their surfaces

870
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: that you can build a sort of a theory of

871
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: physics that works in three D. That's actually the theory

872
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: of physics in two D on a surface, like you

873
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: don't need three dimensions. Maybe you can describe everything on

874
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: on a surface exactly. And so the idea is like, well,

875
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: maybe that's also true like for our universe, Like maybe

876
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: our three D universe is just a projection, is a

877
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: two D hologram of what's happening at the edge of

878
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: our universe. We think we live in this three D

879
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: world and we're all moving around three dimensions. But if

880
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: you can print all the information of a three D

881
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: world onto a two D surface, then it's possible that

882
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: we actually live on the two D surface at the

883
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: edge of the universe somewhere and that what we experience

884
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: is that three D world is really just a two

885
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: D surface. But okay, so I guess it's like if

886
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: this can happen on a black hole, then maybe it's

887
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: happening everywhere. And maybe if we don't really need three dimensions,

888
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: maybe like we have a redundant dimensions, right, And then

889
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: there was this incredible result in string theory which backed

890
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 1: this up. This guy at the Institute for Advanced Science,

891
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: Jue Malda Sena, he came up with this theory that

892
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: showed that string theory in you know, three dimensions that

893
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: we experience, it can actually be described by a quantum

894
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: theory in two dimensions. So he showed how you could

895
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: reconstruct a theory of our universe in three dimensions only

896
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: on a two dimensional surface. So it sort of showed

897
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: mathematically that this might be possible. So what does that mean?

898
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 1: That means that we're really living an illusion, like the

899
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: three dimensions that we think we're living in are actually

900
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: just an illusion. Kind of It could be, right, Yeah,

901
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: it certainly could be. It could be that we actually

902
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: live in a two D space Like I mean, it

903
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: doesn't make any difference like feeling like you live in

904
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: three D and actually living in three D, Like what's

905
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: the difference? Uh? Nothing, But mathematically it might be that

906
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: our three D universe can be described as just a

907
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: two D surface, which is sort of fascinating because you

908
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: feel like there's too much information here, right that that

909
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: everything that's happening to us is somehow too much to

910
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: squeeze down to two dimensions. But mathematically it can be equivalent.

911
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: It could be that it's just that we don't have

912
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: the full freedom of the three dimensions, that we're just

913
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: a projection of two D spit. But I guess maybe

914
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: the way you explain it maybe is that you also

915
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,479
Speaker 1: have time and maybe like somehow time is also giving

916
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: you that extra feeling of a three or third dimension. Right, Well,

917
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: here we're just talking about spatial dimensions, and so that

918
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: two D space would also have time in it, so

919
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: it's allowed to evolve that things can move on the

920
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: two D surface, and that changes what happens inside the

921
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: three D space, But we don't know right that. Yeah,

922
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: I guess that's what I mean. It's like, because you

923
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 1: have time, then you can maybe store more things into

924
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: that to the information than then you might think. But

925
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's a big leap, Like we say, maybe

926
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,359
Speaker 1: information is stored on the surface of black holes, which

927
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: means that maybe you can determine their interior to maybe

928
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: the whole universe is a holomeram. Like, there's a lot

929
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: of big leaps there, But again they're also fascinating there, Like,

930
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, maybe trying to solve this mystery about what's

931
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 1: happening inside of a black hole tells us about what's

932
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: possible for ideas we could have about the universe, and

933
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 1: and reveals to us sort of shocking new mathematical connections

934
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: that show us that the richness of our universe might

935
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 1: actually be representable in terms of a smaller set of dimensions. Right, Yeah,

936
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: like maybe we're all living in a video game. Kind

937
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: of it just seems like we're in a three D world,

938
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: but really we're we're just in this kind of reconstruction

939
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: of a three D world, that's right. And if we

940
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: are living in a video game, I want to know

941
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: what are the cheat codes? How do I reset? How

942
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: do I get extra lives? Exactly? All right? Well, um,

943
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: it sounds like maybe black holes are not destroying information.

944
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,280
Speaker 1: Maybe that that seems to be kind of the current

945
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: physics thinking is that maybe it is sort of recorded

946
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: on the surfaces of black holes. Yeah, and you know,

947
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: this stuff is pretty hand wavy. It's not like people

948
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: have really worked out the mathematical details of it. It's

949
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: sort of like an idea for idea we might have.

950
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: It's like a crack a way to explore it that

951
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: might be able to reveal what's happening with black holes

952
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: and information. It's not like a very totally solid worked

953
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: out idea. I see, these are just kind of like

954
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: directions in which that might have playing these things exactly exactly,

955
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 1: and we we we might be getting closer to knowing

956
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: the answer, right, I mean, we just took a picture

957
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: of a black hole. Maybe in the future we might

958
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: get closer to it and figure these things out. Or

959
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: is this closed off to us forever. That's a great question.

960
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: And you know, we could send somebody into a black

961
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: hole and maybe they could learn something about it. The

962
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: problem is we'd never know the answer because they couldn't

963
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: tell us. We might as well send dogs in, right, Well,

964
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: we're going to get a letter from the cat. Our

965
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 1: cats depending it. You know, Well, if you're a dog lover,

966
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: you can, we can send cats to we should just

967
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: send robots. And let's just send robots. No, there's no

968
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: society protecting the life of robots, right, that's right, the

969
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: dog robots, dog robots. There, that's a perfect compromise, all right.

970
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: But again, it just tells you that there's a lot

971
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: we don't know about the universe, and that even like

972
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: our experience of it, this three dimensional experience of it,

973
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: might be not real or not what we think it is. Yeah,

974
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: and that deep insights into the very nature of the

975
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: universe can come from these little odds and ends, these

976
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: things that all we thought we understood, and then there's

977
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: a little detail that doesn't quite make sense, and when

978
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: you tug on that thread, it could unravel literally everything

979
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: we think we understand about the universe. This is how

980
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: lots of great discoveries were made relativity, quantum mechanics, and

981
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: hopefully future crazy bonkers discoveries that people will have a

982
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: hard time accepting is the true nature of the anivers

983
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: Until then, I guess I'll stay to a blender to

984
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: make my fans. I think that's a good idea. All right, Well,

985
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: we hope you enjoyed that Thanks for joining us. Let's

986
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: see you next time. Thanks for listening, and remember that

987
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of

988
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcast for my heart Radio,

989
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

990
00:51:52,040 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. M