Speaker 1: Worrying.
Speaker 2: Today's episode contains spoilers for and Or season two episode seven,
Speaker 2: eight and nine, the third tranch of chapters from and
Speaker 2: Or season two.
Speaker 1: If you weren't.
Speaker 3: Hello, my name is Jasconcepcio and I'm Rosie Night.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to X ray Visions, the podcast movie dived
Speaker 2: your favorite Jos movies, comics of pop culture for by
Speaker 2: our podcast, where we'll bring you three episodes a week
Speaker 2: every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
Speaker 4: In today's episode, we are calling everyone back to Abbin
Speaker 4: to discuss episode seven A and nine of Andor's second
Speaker 4: season for our round table. It's roundly being called some
Speaker 4: of the best star wars you've ever seen, not just
Speaker 4: by me and Jason in all recently released social clips,
Speaker 4: but also by the critical mass. There's one person who
Speaker 4: won't be calling them that will.
Speaker 3: Well let him in lay up.
Speaker 4: So let's welcome a Boo and Joel. How you doing, guys,
Speaker 4: So nice.
Speaker 1: To have you, guys.
Speaker 5: Very excited.
Speaker 1: My eyes hurt from crying. It's a lot.
Speaker 4: There was a lot, a lot of emotional stuff going on,
Speaker 4: so let's just let's dig into it. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, first, you know, we've heard our Rosie and I
Speaker 2: are opinions on this What what What are y'all's thoughts
Speaker 2: on episode seven through nine?
Speaker 3: A boo, let's start with you.
Speaker 5: My thoughts are not much changed from last time. I
Speaker 5: feel like a broken record at this point. But every
Speaker 5: week I'm like, that was the greatest Star Wars I've
Speaker 5: ever seen. It can't possibly get better. And then I
Speaker 5: watched three more episodes of this show, and I'm like,
Speaker 5: that was the greatest Star Wars I've ever seen. It
Speaker 5: just keeps getting better. I think, gosh, I don't even
Speaker 5: know if this is I'd have to like rewatch this
Speaker 5: whole show and like really process it. But at the moment,
Speaker 5: at the height of my emotions, having just watched and
Speaker 5: rewatched this set of episodes, I think it's the best
Speaker 5: one so far. And I might just be saying that again, yeah.
Speaker 4: And I will say because there's gonna be quite a
Speaker 4: lot of I think that sentiment. Aboo, what is it
Speaker 4: for you that makes these three episodes some of the
Speaker 4: best Star Wars, if not the best Star Wars that you.
Speaker 5: Use mon Mathma keeps getting hotter? Important topic, No, I
Speaker 5: think what's really gosh? I mean, like the stars aligning
Speaker 5: the planets, aligning with the show releasing in this moment
Speaker 5: in time, just keeps hitting it in ways that I
Speaker 5: find like extremely unexpected, like Mon Mathema's speech. I was
Speaker 5: expecting Mon to drop a fire speech, and she did.
Speaker 5: But I think her specific use of the word genocide
Speaker 5: given everything that's going on in the world, particularly in
Speaker 5: the Israel Palestine corner of the world right now, like
Speaker 5: Mon saying that word on the Senate floor to countless
Speaker 5: people in a broadcast, to who knows trillions of citizens
Speaker 5: across the Galactic Empire. Saying that word out loud and
Speaker 5: acknowledging it, that kind of for me personally, hit like
Speaker 5: a truck. And the show continues to do that over
Speaker 5: and over again in ways that feel we've said it,
Speaker 5: you know, on these episodes many times, but that feel
Speaker 5: prescient in a way that is shocking.
Speaker 1: In a speech about the what you call it abyss
Speaker 1: between what we know to be true and what we're
Speaker 1: able to say here, I mean fucking chills. And I
Speaker 1: think compounded by the fact that it follows the attack
Speaker 1: on Gore and the last speech. Dina's giving this speech
Speaker 1: over the radio and she's talking about how her people
Speaker 1: are being massacred and dying around her, and she's like,
Speaker 1: anyone can hear us? Like we're dying? I mean, I
Speaker 1: and it tempt not to cry too early as sobbing,
Speaker 1: Like I think it's just some of the most beautiful writing.
Speaker 1: But also I think in a series about war to
Speaker 1: bring us to a true point of hopelessness and crafting
Speaker 1: a narrative around it so that you can too be
Speaker 1: in it and feel it. I mean, I know, again
Speaker 1: we say it all the time, but like the way
Speaker 1: this Plus is rogue one in such a profound and
Speaker 1: significant way, in the way that was able to Plus
Speaker 1: a new hope. I mean, I think it's just so
Speaker 1: impressive to be able to raise a series that's been
Speaker 1: around for forty plus years in new and shocking ways
Speaker 1: by treading over the things that made the series essential
Speaker 1: in our hearts in the first place. I mean, what
Speaker 1: he does with the force in this and I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll get into it later, but I didn't know that
Speaker 1: you could show and not tell us what the forces
Speaker 1: without having to use like CGI and magical whimsy chimes
Speaker 1: and stuff. He showed us what the force is without
Speaker 1: any force powers. How'd you do it? It was incredible.
Speaker 1: I was so moved by the series of episodes. To me,
Speaker 1: this is the best Star Wars movie of all time,
Speaker 1: and it is because it's hitting on the rebellion, it's
Speaker 1: hitting on the politics, it's hitting on the purpose and
Speaker 1: importance and impact of faith. I don't know if there's
Speaker 1: better TV on or has ever been better TV on period. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's brilliant.
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's clearly the best TV
Speaker 2: that's on right now. And I think we've we've been
Speaker 2: banging that drum for a little while. Yeah, I had,
Speaker 2: you know again, for a show that is obviously not
Speaker 2: connected at all to current events at all, to find
Speaker 2: the way it's resonating, it's just it's It is incredibly powerful.
Speaker 2: And the thing that I took away from these episodes
Speaker 2: in particular is this is kind of the awakening for
Speaker 2: everybody that, Okay, there's no way forward without losing, without
Speaker 2: getting hit, without giving up something, without sacrificing a relationship,
Speaker 2: without sacrificing comfort, without sacrificing safety. There's no way to
Speaker 2: go forward through this without being labeled a criminal or
Speaker 2: an outlaw or a terrorist. Like and in a lot
Speaker 2: of ways after that it seems like everything is is
Speaker 2: almost easier. I'm fascinated also by the by the way
Speaker 2: that these episodes in the series plays with some of
Speaker 2: the tropes of Star Wars.
Speaker 3: I think Dedra and Cyril for instances about them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're used to the idea in Star Wars
Speaker 2: of the villain who is redeemed, who comes to a
Speaker 2: moment where they realize, oh shit, on the bad guy,
Speaker 2: I've been doing evil because I'm hurt, because I'm traumatized,
Speaker 2: I'm doing evil for quote unquote the right reasons. Now
Speaker 2: it's time to stop doing this. And we see both
Speaker 2: Cyril and Dedra come to these realizations, but in ways
Speaker 2: that are completely twisted from what we're used to. Cyril
Speaker 2: has the scales falls from his eyes. He realizes, oh wait,
Speaker 2: the Empire is doing bad stuff. People who don't like
Speaker 2: the Empire are not diluted fools who have been misled
Speaker 2: by you know, agitators. But he's still more comfortable throwing
Speaker 2: his lot in with the bad guys than he is
Speaker 2: doing anything else.
Speaker 3: And then there's Dedra, who is.
Speaker 2: Broadly against what is happening and what she's taking an
Speaker 2: active role in doing, but is against it for purely
Speaker 2: like personal reasons of ambitions and career. I think I
Speaker 2: think that's really fascinating, showing the different ways that you
Speaker 2: can be for something that's absolutely fucking terrible.
Speaker 4: I completely agree. I think that this show and something
Speaker 4: that has become very clear from my rewatches and then like,
Speaker 4: as soon as this episode's hit, I'm in the discord,
Speaker 4: I'm on ready, I want to know what everyone else
Speaker 4: feels about it. I think something that Gil or I
Speaker 4: did here was gave us more time with the Imperials
Speaker 4: than we've ever gotten before, and not just time of
Speaker 4: what do they believe in? What are they doing? Personal time,
Speaker 4: personal interactions, and they humanized them, not so we would
Speaker 4: feel empathetic, so that we could understand where they were
Speaker 4: coming from. Sooo, what was your read now that.
Speaker 3: We're this far in?
Speaker 4: Obviously we are the rip, They're all part.
Speaker 6: Of the Swiss, I think we would say, but aboo,
Speaker 6: how did that part of these episodes speak to you
Speaker 6: and kind of help raise it above what we've seen
Speaker 6: before in Star Wars.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Look, I think the two of you aptly called
Speaker 5: Cyril a rat many times in your recap, and that
Speaker 5: certainly fits the label is well deserved, but all throughout
Speaker 5: Episode seven, in particular, where we see Cyril go out
Speaker 5: into the massacre and you're like, is he gonna do something?
Speaker 5: Is he gonna help someone? I was waiting for that
Speaker 5: classic Star Wars redemption moment to happen, and I think
Speaker 5: the show very much knew that as well. It was
Speaker 5: very much teasing the serial redemption moment back to the light.
Speaker 5: He saw his mistakes, the error of his ways, and
Speaker 5: he's gonna do something small maybe, but something enough to
Speaker 5: redeem him.
Speaker 7: And he doesn't no.
Speaker 2: The thing I loved about that moment Abo is it's
Speaker 2: almost like he's so mad at Cassian, yeah, for bursting
Speaker 2: his bubble, for making him realize the truth, and he's
Speaker 2: almost more angry at that he would have preferred to
Speaker 2: stay in the fantasy that the Upper's grade and everything's
Speaker 2: gone great and all that shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think that's the same reaction he has with who
Speaker 5: is at Papa Rye Lance, the older, older man. He
Speaker 5: tries to actually stop, you know, he realizes it's a trap.
Speaker 5: And that was very hard for me to watch too,
Speaker 5: because obviously the dramatic irony there as the viewer, I
Speaker 5: know it's a trap. And this guy's right and nobody's
Speaker 5: listening to him, and it's too late. But Cyril confronts
Speaker 5: him as well and really like rough houses him, throws
Speaker 5: and throws him to the ground. And I think it's
Speaker 5: because he's coming face to face with the humanity of
Speaker 5: the Gormans and the mistake that he's made. You know,
Speaker 5: he's having these emotional outbursts and these reactions, literally grabbing
Speaker 5: Dietre by the neck. I was like, oh my god, Yeah,
Speaker 5: my god, I think it is. It was very enjoyable
Speaker 5: for me to watch the serial breakdown happen. And at
Speaker 5: the same time, part of me, the especially the little
Speaker 5: kid in me who grew up watching Star Wars, was
Speaker 5: waiting for Cyril to redeem himself and he never did.
Speaker 5: And I think that that was brilliant and shocking.
Speaker 4: Joelle, how about you.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate So Dan Gilroy wrote this set of episodes,
Speaker 1: and so I just want to make sure we like
Speaker 1: shout out what he's done here to me, Like, I
Speaker 1: it's so easy to hate Cyril, like wow, whiney Mama's boy,
Speaker 1: like boot liquor rat, Like it's really easy to throw
Speaker 1: all these lables. But she's earned, like not taking anything
Speaker 1: away from that, but what I think has been done
Speaker 1: really well here is there's a removal of the idea
Speaker 1: that any of these people are monsters. Right, Like Will
Speaker 1: at one point is like daters of monster. I don't
Speaker 1: think datres a monster. I think Datre's a person who's
Speaker 1: only just now discovered like true love. And I don't
Speaker 1: mean just in the romance sense, like this is the
Speaker 1: first person who's ever loved Dandra and taken time and
Speaker 1: invested in her and believed in her beyond just what
Speaker 1: she was able to do for him.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 1: I think Cyril is a person who was told this
Speaker 1: is what it is to be a man, and like
Speaker 1: a good person is to fight for the empire. And
Speaker 1: he's I'll just be a little crash, too stupid to
Speaker 1: figure out like what's actually going on, like staring him
Speaker 1: in the face. He doesn't see it at all. He's
Speaker 1: so gobsmacked by the idea that he was like, it's
Speaker 1: not you. They don't even think it's you. They think
Speaker 1: it's outside people. And the guys like do you think
Speaker 1: I'm stupid? Like how could you even say this word
Speaker 1: to mean? He's like, no, I believe these words these
Speaker 1: words aren't true. What's going on? And then the only
Speaker 1: person that's ever been genuinely kind and supportive and defended
Speaker 1: him that we've seen Deadra has been lying to him
Speaker 1: for a years and he's finding all this out at
Speaker 1: the same time, and he is unraveling in front of us.
Speaker 1: And I think, I just think it's it's profoundly important
Speaker 1: to remember all times that everyone you're dealing with is
Speaker 1: a human and is a person, and so that when
Speaker 1: you get to this final moment for him, you're not
Speaker 1: so much mourning him as just mourning every point in
Speaker 1: time that you've known him where he might have seen
Speaker 1: the light and just made a different choice.
Speaker 4: I do think that you made the point about, like,
Speaker 4: how do humans enact terrific things? And this is a
Speaker 4: great study in that. And I love I didn't actually
Speaker 4: realize that this was Tony Gilroy's brother, Dan Gilroy, who
Speaker 4: wrote this episode, So I'm saying, brother.
Speaker 1: All three Gilroy's out here cooking absolutely is crazy. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I just think I think, what like if we look
Speaker 1: at like what's going on with Daja for a minute,
Speaker 1: like she like, I mean, I went for Dadrea. Guys,
Speaker 1: that's incredible writing that's incredible acting. I hated this woman
Speaker 1: and she's so alone at the end of this, and
Speaker 1: again from her own making. I don't feel bad for her.
Speaker 1: She put herself in this position again at any time.
Speaker 1: She is the one who literally is in the position
Speaker 1: to call for this attack to happen or not. She
Speaker 1: is guilty every which way you look. And yet I
Speaker 1: feel for how alone and completely isolated and devastated by
Speaker 1: her own decisions and how you understand fully she's never
Speaker 1: ever going to get what she's seeking on this path.
Speaker 1: There's no possible way, Dandre, for one one execu to another.
Speaker 1: Your job cannot love you back, give you anything you
Speaker 1: need things outside of this, and she has nothing. And
Speaker 1: I just I mean to witness to hold space for
Speaker 1: both their tragedies again that they set up themselves and
Speaker 1: the horrific massacre of Gore.
Speaker 4: I I don't.
Speaker 1: I didn't think I had space for that kind of
Speaker 1: except like realization, acceptance in my heart, in my body.
Speaker 1: For them to do in a show, it's just entirely moving.
Speaker 1: It's wonderful. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I have a slightly different tweak on the dedrashial are
Speaker 2: humans kind of a perspective which I completely agree with
Speaker 2: It's important to remember the fleshing out of these characters
Speaker 2: to allow you to understand how they came to this place.
Speaker 2: I think is really important.
Speaker 3: And for me it's what is What.
Speaker 2: Hits is how is less about the tragedy of their
Speaker 2: lives and more about how how much humility these characters
Speaker 2: have to take into what they're doing, because it's not
Speaker 2: that far away from what Cassian and the rebels are doing.
Speaker 2: In terms of like an ideological leap two. It's just
Speaker 2: like a little bit more thought, be a little bit
Speaker 2: more thoughtless, be a little bit more closed off, be
Speaker 2: a little bit less questioning, and you're just and you're
Speaker 2: that person right without real without realizing it.
Speaker 1: And I think it's that.
Speaker 3: It's that the idea that it doesn't and really doesn't
Speaker 3: take that much.
Speaker 2: For you to for people who are just trying to
Speaker 2: work a job to enact something terrible. That is truly
Speaker 2: the for me, the gut punch thought of this, like,
Speaker 2: these aren't these aren't spectacularly special.
Speaker 4: People, you know, these are just sociopaths that they have enlist,
Speaker 4: that people who have raised in a system. And I
Speaker 4: think this makes this Jason, that's such a good point
Speaker 4: because I do think as well as this is not
Speaker 4: based on any specific real life experience, but we are
Speaker 4: in a time again where we are getting reports that
Speaker 4: people who are doing horrific things, who are disappearing. People
Speaker 4: are saying, hey, I'm just following my orders. I'm not evil,
Speaker 4: I'm just doing what the government tells me. And I
Speaker 4: think there is definitely a continuous reckoning with that kind
Speaker 4: of idea in this And Tony Giro did a great
Speaker 4: interview with the Hollywood Reporter. Obviously, the show is in
Speaker 4: pre production twenty twenty two, so it's more about being
Speaker 4: prescient than no, like just making shows that are so
Speaker 4: good that they end up feeling realistic whatever timeline you're in.
Speaker 4: But he had this great thing, which I think is
Speaker 4: a really good point, which says the really sorry truth
Speaker 4: about this question about the genocide, question about the reality
Speaker 4: of the show and what inspired it. And he said,
Speaker 4: and we get it a lot, is that peace and
Speaker 4: prosperity and calm are the rarities. Those are rarities throughout
Speaker 4: the last six thousand years of recorded history. You could
Speaker 4: drop this show at any point in the last six
Speaker 4: thousand years and it would make sense to some people.
Speaker 4: About what is happening to them. And I love the
Speaker 4: notion of like Gilra is like, bro, human history sucks,
Speaker 4: and guess what it's sucking right now. And it sucked
Speaker 4: fifty years ago, and it sucked one hundred years ago.
Speaker 4: And that's why this feels so relevant. And I kind
Speaker 4: of love the almost like nihilistic viewpoint on that. And
Speaker 4: the truth is, look, there's a reason it moved everyone.
Speaker 4: People speaking truth to power, and as he continued to say,
Speaker 4: is like the control of truth has always been the
Speaker 4: scabbard of power, and power dictates the narrative. And look
Speaker 4: at what the Empire does to Gorman with their propaganda campaign,
Speaker 4: and that is like the realist shit, because I think
Speaker 4: that is what makes it feel so real, is like
Speaker 4: those people are in that system and at any point
Speaker 4: in life a change could come where they would see
Speaker 4: something different. Cassium wasn't always going to be a revolutionary.
Speaker 4: He wasn't born into it, you know. And I think,
Speaker 4: to me, the fact that this feels so real and literally,
Speaker 4: like two days ago, we're hearing people say, oh, I'm
Speaker 4: just following my job when they're disappearing people under the
Speaker 4: guise of ice or homeland security and it feels just
Speaker 4: as relevant to have that conversation. That is the power
Speaker 4: of what Tony girl doing. As he said, it's not
Speaker 4: a psychic this was made in twenty twenty two, But
Speaker 4: I'm like, actually, that's the power of the storytelling. Can
Speaker 4: you make something that feels so timeless that it has
Speaker 4: literally started a global political discourse due to one speech
Speaker 4: that you wrote two years before the Israel Palestine conflict
Speaker 4: as it is now existed, Like that to me is
Speaker 4: like an unbelievable understanding of history and human nature. And
Speaker 4: I think that is what the stuff, specifically with Deirdre
Speaker 4: and Cyril really was giving me, like a lot of
Speaker 4: feelings in this of like how horrific to be the
Speaker 4: human who makes the wrong choice and look at what
Speaker 4: you've done, like look at the death you've caused, because
Speaker 4: at no point did you listen to any kind of
Speaker 4: inkling within yourself of whether this was right or wrong.
Speaker 4: And I just think that's like unbelievable storytelling. And also
Speaker 4: like rest in peace, piss to Cyril, as Jason put it,
Speaker 4: like I don't care, like sorry, but I do think
Speaker 4: it's an incredible story.
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break and then we'll be right
Speaker 3: back before.
Speaker 2: Y m h.
Speaker 3: And we're back.
Speaker 4: Jason, you raised a great point that I really wanted
Speaker 4: to ask you about earlier. Would the Empire of one
Speaker 4: if they had been more patient, like is the gold
Speaker 4: massacre the critical misstep that it then goes on to
Speaker 4: ignite the rebellion as not to not to.
Speaker 3: Coach up, the not to coach up if I had
Speaker 3: orchestrated the this is.
Speaker 1: That said, not not saying you're doing, but that said.
Speaker 2: I think what what is fascinating to me about about
Speaker 2: the massacre and about this is.
Speaker 3: What's the rush?
Speaker 1: Guys?
Speaker 3: Why you need the Death Star for what?
Speaker 2: Like? What problem is the Death Star solving that the
Speaker 2: fleet can't solve? And I would argue again not to
Speaker 2: not to coach up the empire. But had they gone slower?
Speaker 2: And I think this is in part a function of
Speaker 2: the structure and culture of the empire, with all these
Speaker 2: lap dogs all the way up to Palpatine just looking
Speaker 2: to please their master Krenic. I'm under I must go faster,
Speaker 2: mof Tarkan.
Speaker 3: I must go faster.
Speaker 2: I must please the Emperor. You know, I think if
Speaker 2: they had gone slower and taken more time, I think
Speaker 2: maybe they win.
Speaker 3: I think I think maybe they have all of all empires.
Speaker 1: Like that's why I about to say, the only thing
Speaker 1: that the greed cannot help but topple itself, like the
Speaker 1: the the graphs, the firm graphs cannot help, but like
Speaker 1: crush and stuff, okay, everything it tries to touch. I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's even if they crawl, you're going
Speaker 1: to eviscerate an entire plant. Now you might do ovisterate
Speaker 1: this planet and not have an immediate rise of action. Galactically,
Speaker 1: perhaps they could have stuffled that out sooner, but really
Speaker 1: it's just mod getting what like two inches ahead of them,
Speaker 1: like two seconds to say, hey the emperor did this.
Speaker 1: That really allows forward momentums. I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think the all empires are doomed eventually.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but there's a difference between like, you know,
Speaker 2: five hundred years and five I think, you know, like
Speaker 2: and these guys electrily.
Speaker 1: Like one.
Speaker 2: I and I think that they're I think that I
Speaker 2: think the Death Star in and of itself is like
Speaker 2: a huge mistake and was a vanity project and ego
Speaker 2: project to say, like we've got the biggest gun in
Speaker 2: the galaxy and when you really look at it for
Speaker 2: what was necessary for what you have the Senate you
Speaker 2: already age doing genocide easily. Galactic system is completely under
Speaker 2: your control. The media, the galactic media completely under your control.
Speaker 2: You have despite this nascent rebellion.
Speaker 1: That is.
Speaker 3: Very courageous.
Speaker 2: But like I bet you, like you could find some
Speaker 2: independent statistician in the in the galaxy right now to say, okay,
Speaker 2: like what are they really what are they really doing?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Like a propaganda army.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got a propaganda arm You've got a justice
Speaker 2: system for that reason, why do this? And I think
Speaker 2: it was the shock of this and Mon's courage and
Speaker 2: the courage of all the rebels in the face of
Speaker 2: this that allowed everybody to wake up, because I think
Speaker 2: there's an argument that if they go if like the
Speaker 2: boiling the frog in the water, if they step it up,
Speaker 2: people will just be like, you know what, I don't
Speaker 2: like the empire. This sucks, but I'm not looking for
Speaker 2: to get killed, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think my brain like was melting in my
Speaker 4: head as I realized just how not relevant to real
Speaker 4: life this is this hundred days last hundred days of
Speaker 4: speeding through destroying democracy. I'm like, that was like melting
Speaker 4: my brain because Jason, You're absolutely right. Aboo, how does
Speaker 4: the balance between these huge intergalactic political conversations and questions
Speaker 4: about the empire and their efficiency merge in this three
Speaker 4: episodes with the kind of heart of the show with
Speaker 4: bix and and or like, did those big swings work
Speaker 4: for you? Because it's very tonally different. But I think
Speaker 4: it landed.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it absolutely landed. And before I get
Speaker 5: to that, I do want to offer up a potential
Speaker 5: answer to Jason's question why did the empire rush here?
Speaker 5: I think perhaps in a addition to normal bureaucratic like
Speaker 5: I gotta suck up to the boss in front of
Speaker 5: me and always have something like exciting and new to report.
Speaker 5: It's boring if credit goes to the ghost of Palpi
Speaker 5: and is like, yeah, things are slow and steady. Just
Speaker 5: hang tight.
Speaker 7: It's gonna take.
Speaker 5: This is like a it's a very long term, fifteen
Speaker 5: year plan. I need you to hang tight, Like to
Speaker 5: be real, Like, nobody at their job can go to
Speaker 5: their boss and like say that enough times before their
Speaker 5: boss is like, so nothing.
Speaker 4: Is happening, and you're like it is it just has
Speaker 4: to be so we do we They do have the
Speaker 4: time constraints of the story as it was in nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy seven and before.
Speaker 5: So I do like that absolutely, But I think there
Speaker 5: it also speaks to a culture of arrogance within the empire,
Speaker 5: like you do could to control the media, you do
Speaker 5: control the biggest fleet in the entire galaxy. Who cares
Speaker 5: about these rebels, Like we'll just crush them, It'll just
Speaker 5: be a blitz on the radar, and we're just so
Speaker 5: big and unstoppable. Uh, And maybe it speaks to a
Speaker 5: little bit of arrogance on about Palpatine as well, like
Speaker 5: he almost single handedly toppled a republic, getting wiped out
Speaker 5: the Jedi quote unquote wiped out the Jedi. So what
Speaker 5: are a couple of like rich French Gorman is going
Speaker 5: to do to him?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 5: So I think that top level arrogance might maybe seeps
Speaker 5: down to lieutenants and then subordinates and then all the
Speaker 5: way down to folks like Dadri and Carrel. This idea
Speaker 5: that like we're unstoppable, we are the machine. What are
Speaker 5: a couple of rebels.
Speaker 8: Going to do?
Speaker 5: And so, yeah, if we want something, we just take it.
Speaker 5: There's no need to go slow and easy and worry
Speaker 5: about any outside agitators actually endangering us. But I think overall,
Speaker 5: the politics of the show combined and contrasted with the
Speaker 5: very personal stakes for and Or and Bix. To get
Speaker 5: to your question, Rosie, that absolutely works for me because
Speaker 5: I think the show brilliantly does here's large scale, and
Speaker 5: here's how the large scale affects the person and the
Speaker 5: personal and the interpersonal. And so you know, as we
Speaker 5: see over the arc of these three episodes, like the
Speaker 5: heartbreaking decision that Biggs makes and how that affects and Or, like,
Speaker 5: none of that has to do with I mean, of
Speaker 5: course it does have to do with the big picture
Speaker 5: empire stuff, but that is two people figuring out a
Speaker 5: relationship and their current circumstances, and both of those things
Speaker 5: hit just as hard, which is brilliant.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that, because there's a conversation a little
Speaker 2: bit in our discord about about whether or not about
Speaker 2: this idea that there's there's a discussion about whether the
Speaker 2: show is kind of having it both ways, both saying
Speaker 2: community is important in the face of oppression, you know,
Speaker 2: grassroots connections between people, but also that relationships are going
Speaker 2: to get broken, like you can't you have to break up.
Speaker 3: You can't be in love and also be a rebel.
Speaker 1: I disagree with that.
Speaker 3: I disagree on several fronts.
Speaker 2: Because I think listen, I think, I think the with
Speaker 2: love and respect, with love and respect, I disagree. I
Speaker 2: think the continuing escapades of Will in his uh in
Speaker 2: his various passions, direct objection to.
Speaker 4: He's falling in love, He's happen some ride, He's a
Speaker 4: functioning user.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy is having so I I disagree with that,
Speaker 2: but I but I understand the I understand the the notion,
Speaker 2: and I think it's part of it is just like
Speaker 2: the human objection to the idea that we want Cassie
Speaker 2: and and Bix to be together, right and they and
Speaker 2: they don't end up being together at least at the
Speaker 2: end of these episodes. And I think that is hurtful
Speaker 2: to people. But I wanted to get people's take about
Speaker 2: how can you can you can you have a really
Speaker 2: when you're in a rebellion, when you're in a war?
Speaker 2: Can you juggle personal relationships and this larger struggle?
Speaker 1: I want to throw it back to our girl Marva, Yes,
Speaker 1: and conversations she had with Cassie in where he was like,
Speaker 1: but I'll worry. She's like, that's just love, dear, There's
Speaker 1: nothing you can do about that. I think if you
Speaker 1: feel this way, the show's doing a great job of
Speaker 1: making you love and fall in love with these characters,
Speaker 1: and not seeing them together is tremendously awful. And I
Speaker 1: also think if you're a Star Wars fan, you are
Speaker 1: used to love winning the day, and so perhaps that's
Speaker 1: a little bit of an adjustment for you in this series.
Speaker 1: I think loving acts don't always feel loving, And I
Speaker 1: think when we talk more about the role the Force
Speaker 1: is playing in this series, we can delve a little
Speaker 1: bit more into Bigs's decision at the end. But I
Speaker 1: was like, just genuinely, I think love is what is
Speaker 1: keeping all of this together. I don't think the show
Speaker 1: is telling you you can't have love. I think the
Speaker 1: show is saying love is often comes from a point
Speaker 1: of sacrifice. Yeah, it comes to and if you have
Speaker 1: really great parents who at all have had to struggle
Speaker 1: in their life, you'll completely understand this perspective of like
Speaker 1: they they lose a lot in order to give you something.
Speaker 1: All the entirety of the rebellion is an active love
Speaker 1: to the entirety of the galaxy to say what we
Speaker 1: want is the thing that Andor's repeat, Oh, the guys
Speaker 1: is so brilliant. I don't know if you guy's going
Speaker 1: back and watch season one at all, but in the
Speaker 1: first three episodes, and Or is constantly like, I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. I mean literally, like every every
Speaker 1: scene I think ends with him being told by another person,
Speaker 1: here's what you're gonna do next, and then he goes
Speaker 1: and does it. And in these episodes he's like, I
Speaker 1: just I want to make my own decisions, and like,
Speaker 1: that's literally what we're fighting for her. That is the
Speaker 1: whole point of us being here is so that everyone
Speaker 1: can make their own choices.
Speaker 4: I also think that the love thing is really interesting
Speaker 4: because we do see Star Wars as love. Concerzole you,
Speaker 4: even if you fall in love with your sister, don't worry,
Speaker 4: She'll fall in love with someone else and that won't
Speaker 4: be weird, Anna, like love is, you know, love is
Speaker 4: a tangible thing. I love the EU. I have my
Speaker 4: Star Wars you books back there. There's so much marriage,
Speaker 4: so much love, so much personality and kind of fire
Speaker 4: found through those relationships. What I think and on does
Speaker 4: it's pretty fantastic is by show Joelle. I agree with
Speaker 4: everything that you said, Like I think Bix is making
Speaker 4: the sacrifice out of love. But what I think is
Speaker 4: really interesting is they also represent like Theirdra and Cyril
Speaker 4: as like, guess what, sometimes love is actually massively fucking
Speaker 4: dysfunctional and does not save everything. Those who didn't decide
Speaker 4: because they were in love that they had to, you know,
Speaker 4: love concazole, let's escape, let's get off. Though I do
Speaker 4: believe Cyril would have done that honestly because he was
Speaker 4: a symp for Deirdre. But like they didn't come together.
Speaker 4: Love is almost neutral in that space. It didn't make
Speaker 4: it worse. Maybe their behavior actually got worse because they
Speaker 4: met each other, you know, and she was able to
Speaker 4: use a tool Cyril as a tool because of his love.
Speaker 4: So I think something that the show does that's really brave.
Speaker 4: There's showing us different kinds of love and not kind
Speaker 4: of fitting into that idea of love will save the day.
Speaker 4: But in some cases it can. And Biggs's choice, as
Speaker 4: we know from watching Rogue, is a key choice and
Speaker 4: is the reason that it ends up the death start
Speaker 4: ends up being able to be destroyed. And I just
Speaker 4: think that there's so much intrinsic complexity in their representation
Speaker 4: of love that we often don't get in your classic
Speaker 4: happily ever after style, which is, by the way, a
Speaker 4: story that I love story trope, I love, I love
Speaker 4: reading happily ever after romances. But I think that just
Speaker 4: as the rest of the show is very complex the
Speaker 4: representation of love and what it means to love and
Speaker 4: whether you're a found family or you're loving someone just
Speaker 4: because they're in the same situation as you, I just
Speaker 4: think they really did something profound with it that until
Speaker 4: you were kind of talking about Joel, I didn't really
Speaker 4: clock on too just how much the dead rassyrial stuff
Speaker 4: is kind of a refutation of the idea that if
Speaker 4: you're in love, you're somehow pure, which I think is interesting.
Speaker 3: I completely agree.
Speaker 5: I also think the show is not saying there's only
Speaker 5: one way to be a rebel, and that and that
Speaker 5: you must sacrifice a B C D in order to
Speaker 5: check the boxes of Okay, now you are a rebel,
Speaker 5: now you are casting it, or I think that's you know,
Speaker 5: we have seen I believe YouTube Jason and Rosie said
Speaker 5: this in your recaps, but the show has continuously showed
Speaker 5: us how the little guy, the normal person can do.
Speaker 3: The small, tiny thing.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, exactly to how did you put it?
Speaker 5: Gum up this come up the system? I think you
Speaker 5: and that you know that hotel attendant might have like
Speaker 5: a wife and kids or something like he maybe he
Speaker 5: didn't give up love, but he still participated in his
Speaker 5: own small way, and I would consider him just as
Speaker 5: much a rebel as I would consider bix or and
Speaker 5: Or or any or sent or any of the others
Speaker 5: who have sacrificed many things. And I think the show,
Speaker 5: I think it comes back to sacrifice. Joelle, you put
Speaker 5: it perfectly like the show is displaying on screen, like
Speaker 5: the types of sacrifice big and small, personal and profound
Speaker 5: that are necessary to get a rebellion against a machine
Speaker 5: like the Empire off the ground and into a place
Speaker 5: where you have a base on Yevin and can go
Speaker 5: public and give a speech in front of the Senate.
Speaker 5: And in order to get there, some folks like and
Speaker 5: Or will sacrifice a lot. Some folks like the hotel
Speaker 5: attendant will sacrifice in their own way, but everyone will
Speaker 5: sacrifice something at.
Speaker 1: Some level, what does Lucent say everything in his original speech,
Speaker 1: and then again when Cassian visits him in appropriately in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, breaking all the rules, he's like,
Speaker 1: it's just everything, this is everything. So yeah, I do
Speaker 1: think the show is kind of stating that, like it true,
Speaker 1: rebellion is worth the risk of everything, But it's also
Speaker 1: asking you to make some pretty intense decisions about like
Speaker 1: where is that line? And it's sort of everywhere for
Speaker 1: each individual, but it's different. Vermon is different from Kathy
Speaker 1: into your point of boots. Rebellion looks different for a
Speaker 1: lot of different people, but none of it is by
Speaker 1: the wayside.
Speaker 3: Well, I was just going to say, I think that.
Speaker 9: In a.
Speaker 2: Kind of zoomed out way, the difference between the empire
Speaker 2: and the rebellion is this idea of these two systems.
Speaker 2: One this idea of communal sacrifice for the greater good,
Speaker 2: where here's a goal that must be achieved freedom and
Speaker 2: for everyone in the galaxy, a return to a more
Speaker 2: equal system, and that means I have to give up something.
Speaker 2: And the imperial system, which is basically order at the
Speaker 2: cost of you all out there bear the worst brunt
Speaker 2: of everything, and we all inside the system benefit.
Speaker 3: We pay none of the costs. We give up nothing.
Speaker 2: We give up none of our security, we give up
Speaker 2: none of our freedom, we give freedom within the system,
Speaker 2: we give up none of our comforts, we give up
Speaker 2: none of our luxury, and we put all the cost
Speaker 2: of maintaining this on everybody who disagrees with us, and
Speaker 2: everybody who.
Speaker 3: Is outside this circle.
Speaker 2: And I think, to me, that's kind of the at
Speaker 2: the core the difference between these two ideas, Rosie, what
Speaker 2: were you going to say?
Speaker 4: Oh, that's real as hell, and it actually leads in
Speaker 4: perfectly what I wanted to talk about is like, I
Speaker 4: love this notion and we've talked about it a lot
Speaker 4: in the group chat of like what does it take
Speaker 4: to make a rebellion? And I think that these three
Speaker 4: episodes really lean into that tension between like the scrappy
Speaker 4: day one resistance like can we do it? And the
Speaker 4: growing legitimate rebel alliance. We see it so we see
Speaker 4: it with mon Mathma, we see it with and Or,
Speaker 4: we see it with the big change that we will
Speaker 4: get to talk about with Mod's speech. So how did
Speaker 4: that hit for you, Joelle? Getting to see all these
Speaker 4: different parts, the sacrifice, the clothes maker, that someone who
Speaker 4: probably like dons your socks and somebody who makes a
Speaker 4: Molotov cocktail, Like, what was it, Like, what spoke to
Speaker 4: you about that aspect?
Speaker 1: With these episodes, I think there's like no space where
Speaker 1: this is more profound than just the singing of like
Speaker 1: their national anthem on gorn exactly that part. I think
Speaker 1: the like it leads right off from the speech the
Speaker 1: the guy who started it from last week. You know,
Speaker 1: they're at the table. He's like, hey, like, nothing else
Speaker 1: matters except the fact that we're gorn. Like I don't
Speaker 1: care if you're like launching bottles or or like if
Speaker 1: you want to be throwing pedals, It doesn't matter to me.
Speaker 1: We have to do it together. And I think sort
Speaker 1: of seeing these like that entire group of extremely passionate
Speaker 1: people who are just so determined to protect their community,
Speaker 1: who feel that the only thing they have is their voice,
Speaker 1: and watching them be snuffed out, like I think, like
Speaker 1: it is genuinely like a chilly experience, and yet it's
Speaker 1: also like the ways they come together at the end
Speaker 1: of that to escape try to protect each other from
Speaker 1: the KT units when they come out, Like there's something
Speaker 1: really profound about that And if you couple it with
Speaker 1: going to the rebel base and seeing them like try
Speaker 1: to keep Cassie and that there, like, yeah, you have
Speaker 1: to follow orders. You're like, listen, you already know where
Speaker 1: I stand. When you start telling me orders, I'm done
Speaker 1: And they're like, gud, that time is coming whether you
Speaker 1: like it or not, because we have to be organized,
Speaker 1: which goes back to what Luther was saying last week
Speaker 1: about you know, I need you to be thinking like
Speaker 1: a leader, like further ahead. And what I what I
Speaker 1: find really great about what these episodes have done is
Speaker 1: they pushed every everybody had to be pushed to greatness
Speaker 1: from a space of like desperation and that kind of
Speaker 1: drive on your penultimate episode, odes, I mean really like
Speaker 1: I feel on pins and needles waiting for next week's episodes,
Speaker 1: especially because we know they're going to lead into directly
Speaker 1: into Rogue one. Uh, you're kind of like we I
Speaker 1: know we're jumping a year, but like, what what's left?
Speaker 1: Like who's here, who's gonna survive? We feel pretty confident
Speaker 1: Luthn has been telling us he's gonna.
Speaker 4: Die, Like, no spoilers, baby, it's happening. I'm dying.
Speaker 1: Death is imminent for me, and so I think what
Speaker 1: it has done seeing all these folks answer your question
Speaker 1: is like it's made the rebellion more tactile. And I
Speaker 1: think it's also burst open the world quite a lot
Speaker 1: in that now when you revisit Star Wars, you're not
Speaker 1: even just looking for like it used to be. Okay,
Speaker 1: you could be a pilot, you could be a Jedi,
Speaker 1: you could be a Sith, or you could be part
Speaker 1: of the like senate. Yeah, those are the wings you
Speaker 1: could occupy. But now it's like you want to be
Speaker 1: a hotel clerk because he was fine.
Speaker 4: I feel like Disney ironically is solving a problem for
Speaker 4: themselves with that, because if you recall the the ill
Speaker 4: fated Galactic star Cruiser experiment, you know where you could
Speaker 4: choose to be. They only really understood two different aspects
Speaker 4: of the story, which was you can be on side
Speaker 4: with Chewbacca or you can try and catch Chewbacca as
Speaker 4: a Nazi, and you can dress up in these costumes.
Speaker 4: And I think because for a lot of people, the
Speaker 4: good bad notion of Star Wars is very clear and
Speaker 4: has been very clear for a long time, that didn't
Speaker 4: sit well. I think when it comes to immersing people
Speaker 4: in options that they have kids who watch and or
Speaker 4: I want to watch this show when I was ten,
Speaker 4: Like I liked long I like long winded ass boring ship.
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying that that's what this is, but
Speaker 4: I'm saying like it er me up in a good way.
Speaker 4: Aaron was like, wait a minute, ros I'm you Aaron,
Speaker 4: whack them alling you call we get over the hype.
Speaker 4: But like, I think the idea that like a kid
Speaker 4: or a younger person watching this, or a fifty year
Speaker 4: old person watching this who has never really thought outside
Speaker 4: of like bad he's bad, and good he's good. I
Speaker 4: think there's an incredible space where you could see yourself
Speaker 4: in the hotel clerk. You could see yourself as the
Speaker 4: person coming up the machine. That's always what Rogan did
Speaker 4: well to me, and I think this expands that in
Speaker 4: such an incredible way.
Speaker 2: That's a great point, Rosie. I think a lot of
Speaker 2: what we're responding to is like the the transition of
Speaker 2: Star Wars from purely a spectator sport to the kind
Speaker 2: of thing that you could imagine taking part in, you know,
Speaker 2: beyond the kind of like childhood fantasy of like having
Speaker 2: the force and I'm having a calling. Yeah, I'm glad
Speaker 2: we're calling out the hotel clerk. And also, you know
Speaker 2: we should call out the workers in the Senate House
Speaker 2: who like were like I don't know where you know.
Speaker 4: That made me like like fucking warm.
Speaker 3: It's and it's the government first episode.
Speaker 4: We don't know what happens to her. Did she die? Yes,
Speaker 4: she made that choice to walk with and or and
Speaker 4: she helped make this happen.
Speaker 1: It's spanning.
Speaker 2: It's this is really the first time in Star Wars
Speaker 2: where in one selection of episodes or one self contained
Speaker 2: bit of story, you can see the entire breath of
Speaker 2: the rebellion from the grassroots people like the hotel clerk,
Speaker 2: all the way up to General Draven mon Mathma. And
Speaker 2: I mean, the other thing that's really notable about these
Speaker 2: episodes is this is the final death of authentic senatorial
Speaker 2: politics in the galaxy.
Speaker 1: This is like the end.
Speaker 2: This is the end of the illusion that the Senate
Speaker 2: does anything, Like we're doing away with that now. It
Speaker 2: doesn't do anything. It's just a figlely for the empire.
Speaker 2: And the way this show connects that idea to the
Speaker 2: kind of struggle that's going on within all of these
Speaker 2: characters to decide to either go along with what's happening
Speaker 2: or do the right thing.
Speaker 3: Is is really profound. Let's take a quick break and
Speaker 3: then we'll come back.
Speaker 7: And we're back.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the tensions now that are quite clear
Speaker 2: between these day one rebels as you put at rosy
Speaker 2: Cassian and the rest and the kind of dispersed cells
Speaker 2: saga eras you know upstart, he's got activists, that's resistance
Speaker 2: activists and the now ascendant authentic rebellion of real politicians,
Speaker 2: actual professional military people who are trying struggling to kind
Speaker 2: of wrangle control from a bunch of folks who have,
Speaker 2: buy necessity, been acting independently of any kind of outside control.
Speaker 3: What were your How did that hit you? Aboo? How
Speaker 3: did that hit you?
Speaker 5: I was it was very satisfying for me to see
Speaker 5: how organized things have become on yab and as a
Speaker 5: as a type a person who loves a spreadsheet and
Speaker 5: can't wait to color code things. Draven being like, you
Speaker 5: got a log where.
Speaker 3: This ship is going? Okay, did you submit the forms
Speaker 3: or not?
Speaker 5: I was like, yes, please, thank you. Someone is finally
Speaker 5: saying it, and honestly, somebody like Cassian would be my
Speaker 5: personal nightmare in the rebellion, you know, like and I'd
Speaker 5: be like logging everything meticulously and everything would be color coded,
Speaker 5: and then Cassian would just like go somewhere without telling
Speaker 5: me and.
Speaker 3: It and You'd be like that it would be like
Speaker 3: an administrative.
Speaker 2: Mess for me.
Speaker 5: You know, Draven would be breathing down my neck. But
Speaker 5: that tension I think is really lovely to see in
Speaker 5: the show because we are seeing the transition, we are
Speaker 5: seeing the growing pains that come with that. We're no
Speaker 5: longer in the wild West phase of the rebellion, and
Speaker 5: we are moving now into the more organized, formalized, and
Speaker 5: very public rebellion that we can get entire planets. We
Speaker 5: can convert entire planets to our side.
Speaker 9: You know.
Speaker 5: We no longer have to find the random spy hidden
Speaker 5: away on a planet to hire and have have work
Speaker 5: for Luthans.
Speaker 3: We're past that stage.
Speaker 5: So I really like seeing that tension. I also really
Speaker 5: admired cashand for being like, fuck you, I've done so much,
Speaker 5: Like you.
Speaker 7: Don't need to tell me what to do.
Speaker 4: I think that's the most powerful shit is like these
Speaker 4: are real no based on real life, but these are
Speaker 4: real quandaries that people have about where their role is
Speaker 4: in a rebellion, and also like what is the acceptable
Speaker 4: face of a rebellion, and also like what counts as
Speaker 4: self defense and what counts as terrorism? And I think
Speaker 4: a lot of these questions are brought up in this
Speaker 4: show in a way that does make it feel like
Speaker 4: they were writing it yesterday. And I just honestly was
Speaker 4: kind of blown away with that. It's kind of very
Speaker 4: real to like the anarchists who may be at a protest,
Speaker 4: who don't show their faces, who are willing to like
Speaker 4: throw a brick or something, to the non profit versions
Speaker 4: of activist groups that have to make it seem like, hey,
Speaker 4: we want to work within the system we have. You know,
Speaker 4: it's it's really, really.
Speaker 5: Really And I think that structure that's a lovely point, Rosie,
Speaker 5: because I think that structure is necessary to legitimize, legitimize
Speaker 5: your cause, yes, and to legitimize the public face of
Speaker 5: your cause. You will not convert a galaxy kind a
Speaker 5: bunch of spies operating in small cells and Luthen having
Speaker 5: like unchecked power.
Speaker 3: I really loved the interaction.
Speaker 5: Between Luthen and Mon, where Mon is like, I'm more
Speaker 5: afraid of you right now than anyone else really, And
Speaker 5: it's because luthen Can could never be the face of
Speaker 5: this rebellion and someone like him and.
Speaker 1: The rebellion can never exist. And yet full circle exactly.
Speaker 5: And both of those things are true.
Speaker 7: It's and I really liked very rare, very rare for.
Speaker 4: A show to want to get into the the in depth,
Speaker 4: like almost inside baseball workings of what it takes to
Speaker 4: make a rebellion. And I think that's another reason why
Speaker 4: it feels like so prescient.
Speaker 2: I think another thing that was just really intriguing to
Speaker 2: me about this episode is this is the first time
Speaker 2: we see the rebellion start to craft a narrative, a
Speaker 2: myth of its own existence in a way that you know,
Speaker 2: I think, in other our worst properties you would associate
Speaker 2: with imperial activity.
Speaker 3: Here's the lie. It was our elite heroes of Gold
Speaker 3: Squadron that.
Speaker 2: Swept Mond off of Coruscant to safety. Now we know
Speaker 2: from that's from the rebel ship, right.
Speaker 5: And definitely didn't kill an innocent taxi driver that you know, definitely.
Speaker 3: And had nothing saying because he was.
Speaker 1: There's a moment though, where they cut back to him
Speaker 1: as he's listening to mon a moth of speech where
Speaker 1: I couldn't quite tell if he was like, wait for real, Yeah,
Speaker 1: wait is it We're the bad It almost look like
Speaker 1: he was having a We're the Batties moment, but he
Speaker 1: was also coiffeused and also it's way too late, like
Speaker 1: size have been drawn. But it was interesting. Again, I
Speaker 1: think just to see the humanity of people awakening to
Speaker 1: what is real and what's puzzle. Yeah, like that throughout
Speaker 1: the series of episodes was really palpable. It made it
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, the rebellion is happening, yes, and I
Speaker 1: think when you already know the timeline, like, that's a
Speaker 1: really clever way to make it more alive for foobole.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that a little bit because we didn't
Speaker 4: get into this in the recap, so basically we are
Speaker 4: all Rebels stands. As you guys know, the animated series
Speaker 4: Rebels one of the biggest kind of recon movements in
Speaker 4: Star Wars that basically reintroduced people to the prequels and
Speaker 4: set up a lot of stuff that we'd never seen
Speaker 4: outside of the EU Expanded Universe novels. So there was
Speaker 4: a lot of discussion in our group chat that's how
Speaker 4: you know we were nerds. This was not even in
Speaker 4: the discord. We're messaging each other and we're like, guys,
Speaker 4: so what does this mean for the canon because mon
Speaker 4: Mathma made a different speech. So in Entertainment Weekly, that's
Speaker 4: how Big Star Wars is now, this is where the
Speaker 4: scoops are going. Tony Gilroy basically explained the change and said,
Speaker 4: we are hijacking Cannon. In Cannon, she is rescued by
Speaker 4: the Gold Squadron and the speech that they gave in
Speaker 4: the cartoon, which was a canonical show, is on that ship.
Speaker 4: And his brother Danny was like, do I have to
Speaker 4: stick to this fucking speech as it that's a direct quote.
Speaker 4: As it turns out, they found a way that they
Speaker 4: didn't have to, which is basically the conclusion we came
Speaker 4: to in our group chat was basically like Cassian does
Speaker 4: his rescue, she does the speech, evades Bale's corrupted squadron,
Speaker 4: he delivers them to the safe house, but their Gold
Speaker 4: Squadron pick her up as they hinted, and she does
Speaker 4: the speech that we see in Rebels.
Speaker 3: Right from the ship. From the ship, and so she does.
Speaker 4: Make that speech, it's just not the speech which I
Speaker 4: think is very interesting in this show because they have
Speaker 4: also done that with the Gorman Massacre, which in Expanded
Speaker 4: Universe was a talking massacre that had happened for a
Speaker 4: long time and was kind of referenced. But what they
Speaker 4: did with this is they now have two Gorman massacres,
Speaker 4: and the one that everyone says is the one that
Speaker 4: sparked the rebellion is no longer talking, you know, landing
Speaker 4: on a bunch of people. It is now this version
Speaker 4: that we've seen an Andle. I think the way they're
Speaker 4: able to build in those moments is so fucking great,
Speaker 4: and so what we loved about Rogue one and the
Speaker 4: fact that they're able to do it in a way
Speaker 4: that's still respectful to the cartoon which did so much work,
Speaker 4: but also you know, makes sense within the law that
Speaker 4: Tony Gilroy is building here where kind of everything that
Speaker 4: you think you know about the original Star Wars movies
Speaker 4: is fake, Like there's a whole different layer to it.
Speaker 2: The thing I love about the way that Rebels episode
Speaker 2: Secret Cargo works together with this story with and Or
Speaker 2: is I now perceive the Rebels episode to be like
Speaker 2: the propaganda version.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's powerful, and I.
Speaker 2: Guess what I wanted to get at is this is
Speaker 2: another decision that to me, the leaders of the rebellion
Speaker 2: I assume, have to take in full humility.
Speaker 3: When do we lie?
Speaker 2: The empire lies? The Empire is lying about everything. The
Speaker 2: Empire is lying about Gorman. The Empire is lying, you know,
Speaker 2: about what they're doing on Gorman, about who started the
Speaker 2: mask or etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And you could spread that
Speaker 2: out across the galaxy. When is it okay? And I
Speaker 2: think this is okay? What the what the what the
Speaker 2: rebels have done? But I but it's not a decision
Speaker 2: to be taken lightly. When is it okay to say,
Speaker 2: you know what, let's lie.
Speaker 3: Here because.
Speaker 2: We need to do this in order to bring people
Speaker 2: to our cause, to make us look more legitimate than
Speaker 2: maybe we actually are at the moment? How did how
Speaker 2: did you think about that decision? And how do you
Speaker 2: think about it?
Speaker 1: Listen, Jason, not everyone watches c SPAN and when a
Speaker 1: message out in a quick, edible way like like Squadron, Yeah,
Speaker 1: saved man Mathma.
Speaker 4: And they are a great rebellions.
Speaker 1: We saved her life. Okay, we don't like what's good?
Speaker 1: And so I think like choosing a narrative that is
Speaker 1: easy to spread, quick to digest, and clearly it's true,
Speaker 1: is the message and point.
Speaker 4: The true being like, hey, this guy just walked around
Speaker 4: shooting a bunch of people.
Speaker 3: And it's like at least fifty Like it's not.
Speaker 1: No one needs to know we would have let Ma
Speaker 1: Mathma die because we were too busy debating about should
Speaker 1: we send Cassie and out or not. No one needs
Speaker 1: to know what happens is we saved her. That's the
Speaker 1: message going for it. So yeah, it was. What was
Speaker 1: interesting to me, the most interesting is it's an echo
Speaker 1: of what is and Or's future. Right, Andrew is going
Speaker 1: to die without anyone knowing what he has sacrificed and
Speaker 1: done to get to this point, and so it's interesting
Speaker 1: to see how he accepts that, right, because you don't get.
Speaker 1: All he get is that hug at the end, which
Speaker 1: is so beautiful and and like, while what a declaration
Speaker 1: of like love and reliance, whether it's romantic or not,
Speaker 1: there's clearly a I see you between the two of
Speaker 1: them in that moment. So that's really great. But here
Speaker 1: we get she says, I don't know how to thank
Speaker 1: you for what you've done. We don't know how to
Speaker 1: thank Cassie and for what he's given us, and he says,
Speaker 1: just make it worth and it settles something in you
Speaker 1: about his eventuality. And I think that's very nice Dan
Speaker 1: to give us, to be like, he's okay with this outcome.
Speaker 1: This is what almost what he expects, and I think
Speaker 1: that's really lovely.
Speaker 4: I agree, And before we jump to an ad break
Speaker 4: and then introduce our regular hate section with Aaron the
Speaker 4: Joelle talk a little bit about how that connects to
Speaker 4: the Force and the use of the Force in this
Speaker 4: show and specifically in these episodes.
Speaker 1: As a long time Star Wars fan, I was also
Speaker 1: a very a huge fan of the Great Jedi. We
Speaker 1: don't have to go into all the war. All you
Speaker 1: need to know is there were people who were in
Speaker 1: the middle. There were people who were in the middle.
Speaker 1: They were in Jedies. They were said that they were
Speaker 1: in the middle.
Speaker 4: It's not canon. Don't worry. We've been told many times,
Speaker 4: but I don't care.
Speaker 1: I love it. And then uh, in Rebels, you get
Speaker 1: is it bought? Oh fuck? Why can't remember the giant
Speaker 1: guy's name? The monster dude. It'll come to me later.
Speaker 1: Doesn't ben do think new story with the be So
Speaker 1: then you get Bendu, who who has really profound things
Speaker 1: to say about you know, how the force disorder for everyone,
Speaker 1: and if you only see the good evil, you're missing
Speaker 1: the bigger picture. Okay, we get a lunch lady who
Speaker 1: can use a bit of power, not just to heal,
Speaker 1: but to sort of see the future. I've been watching
Speaker 1: the prequels for a project I'm working on. This is
Speaker 1: a little bit, a little bit Anakin's power. He doesn't
Speaker 1: know what he's seeing, but he's seeing something that he
Speaker 1: knows to be true.
Speaker 4: Very alphabe coded.
Speaker 1: Absolutely as say listen, listen. This is the limitation of magic.
Speaker 1: It's why we get to use it in stories.
Speaker 5: And so I.
Speaker 1: I think to have this woman represent in such an
Speaker 1: almost casual way, like it's really it's it's so casual
Speaker 1: how they introduce her. It's it's, hey, there's a healer
Speaker 1: down here at your shoulders, not healing, I just want
Speaker 1: you to be better. And he's so terrified of anything
Speaker 1: that looks like faith. Again, another great insight insight into Cassian.
Speaker 1: Cassian believes what he can do, he knows what he
Speaker 1: can make real and that's his reality, and so to
Speaker 1: interject anything outside of that is genuinely terrifying for him.
Speaker 1: I think this is the cruxt of faith as it
Speaker 1: exists in our world, whether you believe in it in
Speaker 1: anything or not. What you can know is the impact
Speaker 1: of people who have faith, right, the impact of faith
Speaker 1: on people who do possess it, And to see it
Speaker 1: in Bis in this way, this beautiful, beautiful way of
Speaker 1: her being like, Hey, I'm feeling and seeing and understanding
Speaker 1: that your role in this, this cause I believe in
Speaker 1: is so important. I cannot be a distraction to you.
Speaker 1: And she does it completely on faith. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: the action of faith to say I have no idea
Speaker 1: what's gonna happen to you, and I don't know what's
Speaker 1: gonna happen to me. But in order for you to
Speaker 1: focus on what I know to be good and true
Speaker 1: and right, I have to leave you. I couldn't believe because,
Speaker 1: I mean, this whole time, I've been afraid they were
Speaker 1: just gonna kill Bicks. I thought she's dead. We know
Speaker 1: he sacrifices everything, but the sacrifice was not one of death.
Speaker 1: It was a choice to give you space and time
Speaker 1: to do the job you were put on this earth
Speaker 1: to do. The Force being more than just a magical
Speaker 1: power the ability to bring us spoon to yourself from
Speaker 1: across the room, but to be something that you not
Speaker 1: just inertily feel, but that you trust and depend on
Speaker 1: without any kind of proof.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like the Force is always being explained
Speaker 1: to us. There's Medchlorians. There's always been this real push
Speaker 1: to be like, this is what the Force is, and
Speaker 1: we're really defining to just let us lay back in
Speaker 1: the cut and feel it and experience it with two
Speaker 1: people who we deeply love, where this decision hurts us,
Speaker 1: but we also ultimately know it's the right one, Like
Speaker 1: that is the profound use of your pen to bring
Speaker 1: and and it's the lynchpin. This is what makes this
Speaker 1: show star Wars.
Speaker 5: This is it.
Speaker 1: If you ever were watching Cassie Andor and you were like,
Speaker 1: this doesn't feel quite like Star Wars. It's got the
Speaker 1: Star Wars background, but this is it. You can't it
Speaker 1: can't be argued anymore. It's Star Wars, and it's so
Speaker 1: firmly rooted in the legacy and Lord that we love
Speaker 1: while also pushing it forward and growling it up I'm amazed.
Speaker 1: I'm amazed at what they were able to do.
Speaker 4: What do you think about the lack of force or
Speaker 4: the kind of way Forth is portrayed in the show?
Speaker 4: How did that hit you?
Speaker 5: I really don't want to follow up what Joelle just
Speaker 5: puts so beautifully, so I will just say here here
Speaker 5: I agree completely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's puff.
Speaker 5: That was incredibly well put.
Speaker 2: I want to quickly return to the to the idea
Speaker 2: about lying for what you believe in which the rebellion
Speaker 2: is doing here with their propaganda campaign to make a
Speaker 2: gold Squadron the acceptable face of rebellion, understanding that like
Speaker 2: it's either Cassian Saw or the heroes of Gold Squadron,
Speaker 2: and we have to go with Gold Squadron because it's
Speaker 2: something I've been thinking about too, you know, as I
Speaker 2: understand that this is a show disconnected from all events, but.
Speaker 3: As you as you know, unless that's six thous as
Speaker 3: I watch.
Speaker 2: Establishment politicians like who I would ostensibly vote for usually and.
Speaker 3: Normal times kind of cut away from.
Speaker 2: Minority community after a community because like it doesn't poll well,
Speaker 2: or because like it doesn't Hey, it looks like we
Speaker 2: lost that argument with like mainstream America. I've increasingly wondered,
Speaker 2: like why not lie about it? You know, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: if you believe in something, and if you come to
Speaker 2: the you know, I'm talking for me personally, like to
Speaker 2: come to a place where like, Okay, I've I've looked
Speaker 2: at it, I've studied my heart, my feelings. I think
Speaker 2: that supporting this group of people is right. And if
Speaker 2: the whole world, or a majority of the world, or
Speaker 2: at least the portion of the world that is in power,
Speaker 2: says you can't do that, then why not lie about it?
Speaker 2: That's why I found this decision to be to you know,
Speaker 2: bury the scrappy, upstart face of the rebellion in favor
Speaker 2: of the more acceptable story that we can prepackage and
Speaker 2: sell to the galaxy in order to hopefully win and
Speaker 2: defeat this evil empire. I found it really affecting because
Speaker 2: I think it's it is you know, it's something I
Speaker 2: think about, like, if you truly believe you're right about something,
Speaker 2: and telling a lie is how you get there. It's
Speaker 2: not your first choice, but you kind of should do it,
Speaker 2: even though it's it's not well by by the by
Speaker 2: the letter of the law what you should be doing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, generally I agree but just to hypothetically play
Speaker 5: the devil's advocate.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 5: Worry that that's a slippery slope because sure, Cassine, Cassine
Speaker 5: is maybe one skeleton you can put and say, okay,
Speaker 5: but how many closets do you continue to put away
Speaker 5: in your closet before before you are just the empire?
Speaker 5: Because the Empire, that's that's the best right the same way,
Speaker 5: we believe we're doing the right thing and we just
Speaker 5: have to get the messaging right. So what if we
Speaker 5: have to lie a little bit along the way, like
Speaker 5: just why about Gorman?
Speaker 2: You know, like that's why that's I mean, I completely
Speaker 2: agree with you, which is why, you know, when we're
Speaker 2: talking about Dedra and Cyril and talking about this, I
Speaker 2: try to stress like humility because I look at Cyril
Speaker 2: and Dedra and I go, that could easily be any
Speaker 2: of our heroes if things had been a little bit different,
Speaker 2: if they had been a little bit less curious.
Speaker 4: If you were orphaned, and instead of Marv finding you,
Speaker 4: the Empire finds you, which is what happened to Dedra.
Speaker 4: So there's that's reflection there. I also think that you
Speaker 4: hit on a really interesting and complex point, Jason, because
Speaker 4: the reality is as is in real life and is
Speaker 4: in this show that's not connected to real life. The
Speaker 4: other side is already lying, like extensively to get what
Speaker 4: they want done. And I boo, I think you're completely right.
Speaker 4: The question is how many times can you lie or
Speaker 4: how many times can you tell your version of the
Speaker 4: truth before that slippery slope where suddenly forced.
Speaker 1: To use the tools of my oppressor exactly a thousand.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it's either and it's lies in the
Speaker 2: kind of abstract sense in this episode, and it's also
Speaker 2: in the very concrete sense reawakening K two s O
Speaker 2: as a tool for rebellion.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I calm believe we didn't even talk about him.
Speaker 2: We don't get I think we'll get to talk about
Speaker 2: him more and upcoming around tables at least.
Speaker 4: That's the.
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick break and sound the imperial claxon
Speaker 2: because the Emperor's shuttle is landing.
Speaker 4: And they're letting him out and he's here. He's gonna
Speaker 4: be after the break, so.
Speaker 10: Listen after the break, Yeah, okay, and we're rack bomb bomb.
Speaker 3: Bum bum bum bum bum.
Speaker 4: He's doing his hair, he's stretching, he's ready to tell
Speaker 4: us this show is not as good as you think
Speaker 4: it is, and we want to hear about it.
Speaker 3: Aaron Emperor is coming here.
Speaker 8: Team Yeah, Look, I love these three episodes of the
Speaker 8: Book of Boba Fat. I'm sorry, sorry, and or and
Speaker 8: or season two not.
Speaker 7: I guess up sometime you want to get told off.
Speaker 8: But I do think there's there's something before we start
Speaker 8: we're talking about the show that just reminds me a
Speaker 8: lot of talking about sports teams, and Jason, you'll you'll
Speaker 8: know this, especially right now. You know you have a game,
Speaker 8: you have the Thunder losing to the to the Nuggets,
Speaker 8: and fans of the Under are going to say, don't worry,
Speaker 8: that was a weird game.
Speaker 7: They're going to come back from it.
Speaker 8: Fans of the Nuggets are going to say, no way,
Speaker 8: like you guys couldn't stop Jokic and like we had
Speaker 8: bad games from other players.
Speaker 7: It's over.
Speaker 8: And then you you talk yourself into whatever argument you want.
Speaker 8: And I think we're kind of in this place where
Speaker 8: the four of you love Rogue One, you love the
Speaker 8: first season of this show, and there's a lot of things,
Speaker 8: there's a lot of things that I think you are
Speaker 8: forgiving in this show. You don't forgive an other shows
Speaker 8: for instance. Okay, first of all, I just want to
Speaker 8: ask is the show helped or hurt by the fact
Speaker 8: that it is Star Wars. I know, you just went
Speaker 8: on this long monologue about the Force. I personally seeing
Speaker 8: the X Wings go and the tie Fighters that was cool.
Speaker 8: I loved when the X Wings are in that opening
Speaker 8: shot in the seven and the Tie Fighters going overhead
Speaker 8: the plaza in Gorman like that was very menacing. The
Speaker 8: Force Healer did nothing for me. I thought it was wild.
Speaker 3: You are forced.
Speaker 4: Hey, you know what, this doesn't surprise me. This done
Speaker 4: dun dun, dun sur me Because Aaron, you don't like
Speaker 4: Grogue one, right, which is fine, that's your prerogative, but
Speaker 4: that has one of the most nuanced, unbelievable explorations of
Speaker 4: what is the Force? Who gets to be a Force user?
Speaker 1: Is the Force?
Speaker 4: Just blind faith? And so if you don't like Grogue,
Speaker 4: you probably don't like this part of the Force, which
Speaker 4: I do think worked for me. But also I would
Speaker 4: say generally, I think it is helped by being a
Speaker 4: Star War because one, this is the best thing you
Speaker 4: can do with an ip is to make it something
Speaker 4: that makes people engage with stories in a way they
Speaker 4: haven't before. It's what they did with Watchmen, which was
Speaker 4: an unbelievably complex situation when it came to adapting it,
Speaker 4: but they made something that expanded the world and got
Speaker 4: a ton of different people to watch it to learn
Speaker 4: about historical things that really really happened and that a
Speaker 4: lot of Americans did not know. And I think that
Speaker 4: right now it being Star Wars helps because I think
Speaker 4: the ships and the pupew and the Stormtroopers get people
Speaker 4: in and then hopefully they can learn something from it.
Speaker 4: Coming up a machine, the importance of like allowing somebody
Speaker 4: to grow on their own. So I think it I
Speaker 4: think it is helped by being Star Wars because it would.
Speaker 8: Never have gotten It is helping because it's Star Wars
Speaker 8: and we see Stormtroopers and we're like, yeah, I can
Speaker 8: get into that. Or is it hurt by the fact
Speaker 8: that we have a side plot featuring Sagarera, who I
Speaker 8: hated in Row one and I hate here and Saw
Speaker 8: and Will goes to hang out with Saw and then
Speaker 8: he comes back and he's basically the same, except he's more.
Speaker 7: Loyal to losing.
Speaker 4: No no, no, I saw this. I saw this lie
Speaker 4: that you put in the disco Will Will is still
Speaker 4: hopping the rideo bro. You don't need to see it
Speaker 4: because that motherfucker looking fuss.
Speaker 7: Okay, So this is another conversation here.
Speaker 8: You all have forgiven everything that happens offscreen in this
Speaker 8: show in a way you don't in other things.
Speaker 7: So many things are being done on screen.
Speaker 1: The show.
Speaker 3: I will just say that that is like a very
Speaker 3: circular argument.
Speaker 8: To me.
Speaker 2: It's like saying, well, you like you hate boiled chicken,
Speaker 2: but you love fried chicken.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like, I like stories when they're good, and this is
Speaker 3: a good one.
Speaker 9: And does this story contain elements where in other less
Speaker 9: well executed stories, I go, that's boring, that stupid.
Speaker 2: Nothing so but of course, of course, but I just
Speaker 2: feel like this is a well done story and a
Speaker 2: very you know, like this is a high degree of difficulty,
Speaker 2: and is it made easier more palatable? Does the medicine
Speaker 2: go down smoother because it star wars? Of course, but
Speaker 2: still this is to me a really well done tail,
Speaker 2: really exceptionally well done.
Speaker 1: I also think the structure allows for you you like,
Speaker 1: whereas sometimes like the show is continuous, I don't want
Speaker 1: to have to guess at things. The time that you've
Speaker 1: spent and the time that you're showing me. You should
Speaker 1: have highlighted that. But when you have year gaps and
Speaker 1: you're only spending three days, the structure sort of lends
Speaker 1: itself to allowing you to sort of have that lean in.
Speaker 7: So I'm okay.
Speaker 8: If they chose this structure, it wasn't mandated by law.
Speaker 8: They don't get bonus points.
Speaker 7: Shows everything you don't.
Speaker 3: Show because the structure.
Speaker 4: You pitch your structure, and the structure looks, then that's good.
Speaker 2: If you pitch your your take would be, your take
Speaker 2: would be, it would be better if it was like
Speaker 2: the seven days leading up to mon Mathma's speech.
Speaker 8: No take would be that would be good to me.
Speaker 8: Let's not make this be three day packets all at once. Now,
Speaker 8: this three day packet is incredibly important and I loved,
Speaker 8: so I will okay. Episode eight I like was in shock.
Speaker 8: I loved episode e. I texted you a joke that
Speaker 8: I loved it. It gave it an a plus because
Speaker 8: of the little clacks and handheld devices.
Speaker 7: Those are amazing. I was all in on that.
Speaker 8: You give me a funny musical instrument, and I'm in
Speaker 8: But I just think that the brutal adherence to three
Speaker 8: days and then nothing and then three days is a
Speaker 8: little silly along the lines of things that are solved
Speaker 8: off screen. Daredevil, Born Again, Flawed Show, Not Perfect. We
Speaker 8: all talked about how Muse shows up as this incredible
Speaker 8: hand to hand fighter, and it's like, oh wow, okay,
Speaker 8: I guess like we just handwave that he had a
Speaker 8: taekwondo instructor. Here Cyril goes from Cyril's like number one
Speaker 8: image is him lying face down on the bed because
Speaker 8: his mommy was mean to him, and now all of
Speaker 8: a sudden he's hand to hand beaten the shit.
Speaker 7: At a cassion, I think.
Speaker 1: That this is not an organized fight. If he had
Speaker 1: a bombing ring and he was like dodging and weaving,
Speaker 1: that I would agree with you. There these hands, You're right,
Speaker 1: You're right. Because and Or was not focused hand or
Speaker 1: he is, he was not in the battle.
Speaker 8: He was totally confused and shocked, and and Siril was
Speaker 8: the one that was really on top of Oh wait
Speaker 8: around at.
Speaker 1: You in a rage air. I was gonna say, matter
Speaker 1: how skilled they are, you are going to have to
Speaker 1: like you're gonna livet and Cassian is not, from what
Speaker 1: we've seen, an amazing like hand to hand fighter. He's
Speaker 1: a spy, he's hide and he's Duckey's even he's shooting.
Speaker 1: We don't know what kind of hands Cassian has already
Speaker 1: don't seem like in a life where you had to
Speaker 1: grow up and learn how to fight. I'm fine with this.
Speaker 3: What what's the Sagarera issue?
Speaker 8: I just I thought Saw in Rogue one, I was
Speaker 8: just in a different movie and they didn't do it
Speaker 8: for me, and he didn't do it for me. Last batch,
Speaker 8: I felt like that was this show has taken people
Speaker 8: and put the and bench them in weird spots like
Speaker 8: I think in the first batch, Cassian being on Yavin
Speaker 8: with the poorly assembled rebels was something I didn't need.
Speaker 8: I understand it shows that like rebel certaincies are not
Speaker 8: perfect on day one and there's infighting in there are issues,
Speaker 8: but it tells that in other ways throughout the story.
Speaker 8: I didn't need Cassian on that planet. It just felt
Speaker 8: like we need to delay him getting home to Bix
Speaker 8: and said we're gonna do it this way Saw like
Speaker 8: Will being Withsaw.
Speaker 7: I just didn't I didn't need it, dude, Aaron have you.
Speaker 4: Ever considered being a movie exactly because I feel like
Speaker 4: you'd be given these notes and you're just mad, like
Speaker 4: I don't get it.
Speaker 8: Start and then and my final thing about this episode is, wow,
Speaker 8: they really did bigs dirty. Tell me, like, what a
Speaker 8: lazy way to get her out of this her entire
Speaker 8: art she is literally.
Speaker 4: Just accepting that she needs a bat at Chilla life
Speaker 4: and the and or couldnot be.
Speaker 7: A part of it.
Speaker 4: She's like, I'm out.
Speaker 8: Bix's entire role in this season is to move along
Speaker 8: Cassian's plot. What are the monumental things that she does?
Speaker 8: She uh uh, she reads Luthen when he comes over
Speaker 8: one time. Oh wow, that's amazing. The second thing she
Speaker 8: does is she takes Cassian into the Force Healer. The
Speaker 8: third thing is Cassian leaves, and she's like, I will
Speaker 8: stay and talk to the Force Healer a little longer,
Speaker 8: and then she willingly takes herself out so that Cassian
Speaker 8: will stay in the rebellion.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 8: She also she did talk to Belle very briefly about Cassian, like.
Speaker 1: Looking in surviving is not nothing. You have an addiction
Speaker 1: after being nearly being tortured, nearly killed, nearly raped, like
Speaker 1: run having to flee your home. What she did was
Speaker 1: survive and that's not a small thing, and it's a
Speaker 1: really challenging thing to do. And she did it not
Speaker 1: in a small way.
Speaker 8: She does it in a way like a big way
Speaker 8: to move Cassian's plot for it. It's very important.
Speaker 4: It's no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1: That's not about Cassian's plot at all. Like nothing that
Speaker 1: she does, it's about pushing Cassian forward. Everything she does,
Speaker 1: you should do that makes Cassie. You can make cassim
Speaker 1: I will.
Speaker 2: From a structural point of view, he's continuously being taken
Speaker 2: away from her, moving him in a direction, like everything
Speaker 2: that happens between them is him very reluctantly separating from her,
Speaker 2: like her moving his plot along would be okay, you know,
Speaker 2: now he has to go on the Bix mission or
Speaker 2: do the Bix thing, and that really does just that
Speaker 2: never happens.
Speaker 3: But I like, I'm not invalidating your perspective.
Speaker 4: Yes, your perspective is valid. But what I love most
Speaker 4: about this is that before we came on to record this,
Speaker 4: you were like, Adria, she's gonna get an Emmy.
Speaker 7: So you're like, you think I was joking because they
Speaker 7: give her.
Speaker 2: Just say one Let me just say one thing, because
Speaker 2: this is d That's something I've noticed. This is something
Speaker 2: I've noticed from various critiques of various shows, shows with
Speaker 2: large casts, as and Ord has.
Speaker 3: And I It's it's kind of like the the critical.
Speaker 2: Version of like a participation trophy, this idea that every
Speaker 2: single character in every show has to have this like
Speaker 2: heroic ride into the sunset, like we go to Valhalla arc.
Speaker 2: When to me it's like, does the story work like
Speaker 2: you can put yeah, I can pick things out.
Speaker 3: Did I want to know more about like this character?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Sure?
Speaker 3: But like does to me it's like does the tapestry work?
Speaker 2: Not?
Speaker 3: Do I want more from one particular character or not?
Speaker 4: I also think that ironically, I mean, what Aaron is
Speaker 4: calling out is like a systemic issue within all storytellings
Speaker 4: there are women. But what I will say, I think
Speaker 4: that what makes this different, and this is important, she
Speaker 4: is not the only woman. There are multiple different versions
Speaker 4: of how men are living in the rebellion. On mamm
Speaker 4: Mathma's daughter, you also have a Dina who we now see.
Speaker 4: I think that where the onus of representation on characters.
Speaker 4: I think that Bix gets to just survive and be
Speaker 4: like I'm leaving because she she's lived the world and
Speaker 4: she's not the only woman in the story. So I
Speaker 4: don't think it's like she doesn't feel to me as
Speaker 4: someone who is like the real you know what, the
Speaker 4: real truth is if they wanted to push Cassian along,
Speaker 4: they would have just killed her. That's the classic Fridging way.
Speaker 4: I think this way, she's actually doing the opposite of
Speaker 4: what Cassian wants, which could tear him away from the
Speaker 4: rebellion as it is, because now he has to make
Speaker 4: that choice, you know. So I think that I think
Speaker 4: that I understand your critique, but I also don't necessarily
Speaker 4: see it in.
Speaker 8: The same I mean, the show has incredible women. I
Speaker 8: mean Claire mon Mathma. I love Clayre's evolution into the set,
Speaker 8: like the long hair and suddenly she's not just like
Speaker 8: hiding behind Luthen and she's like doing stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, people are like, is claar like secretly like a sith?
Speaker 3: Like what is up with this sick dri.
Speaker 1: Like she came out long enough. She yes, I know
Speaker 1: how to dress.
Speaker 7: She's like, this is the role of two me and Mike.
Speaker 4: It's like looking looking cool as hell. Okay, Aaron best
Speaker 4: you did mention, And I think this is important because
Speaker 4: it is fun to be a hater and we all
Speaker 4: love to hate on stuff. But you mentioned the episode
Speaker 4: eight was good for you, so could you talk a
Speaker 4: little bit about what worked and why it stood out someone?
Speaker 8: Episode eight turned my emotion on immediately and ratcheted up
Speaker 8: the entire time. This episode built in a way that
Speaker 8: I was not expecting, Like I felt like this, this insurrection,
Speaker 8: this rebellion, this riot, this massacre is happening. The use
Speaker 8: of the chanting, the use of then transitioning that to
Speaker 8: singing again, like the the fucking sound of every single
Speaker 8: shot that's made in the very beginning, when the K
Speaker 8: two droids come out and kick the fucking stanchion into
Speaker 8: the first person like it. Eight was incredible, and nine
Speaker 8: does that in a similar way, but not in a
Speaker 8: physical warfare way, but with this political although I do.
Speaker 8: It's one of my notes, one of my notes for nine.
Speaker 8: There is my note for nine is how much it
Speaker 8: must suck to be the people in the Senate on
Speaker 8: the bottom row where you're just looking up at the
Speaker 8: Senate seats above you the entire time in your Yes
Speaker 8: the Street episode seven, eight and nine are amazing.
Speaker 7: I loved them.
Speaker 8: I just want to you know, I just want to
Speaker 8: come in here and make sure that we're not like
Speaker 8: giving this show a free pass on everything.
Speaker 3: I remind me. You remind me of my friends.
Speaker 2: You remind me of my friend's dad whose favorite show
Speaker 2: is Breaking Bad, but he rewatches Breaking Bad by fast
Speaker 2: forwarding all the domestic scenes and only watching the shoot incredible.
Speaker 1: Beha, I do Skyler blah blah blah.
Speaker 7: I have been known to flight. I will watch Pacific
Speaker 7: rim and just fast forward to the monster fights. So
Speaker 7: that is that checks out.
Speaker 4: Basically, Aaron is just setting himself up for his inevitable
Speaker 4: tofah grace style and or super Just like that's it.
Speaker 7: Like, what did we need the rest of it for?
Speaker 4: Well, honestly, I will say they said it was like
Speaker 4: a movie, and us Joel said, one of the best
Speaker 4: Do Wars movies we've ever seen is these three chapters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Emperor Aaron, it was delightful to have you
Speaker 2: with us, the super producers of Boo and Joel as
Speaker 2: well as always delightful to hear your perspectives. Coming up
Speaker 2: on Extra Vision on Tuesday, we're diving into the last
Speaker 2: of US episode five. On Wednesday, we have a recaps
Speaker 2: of the series finale episodes of Landor, and of course
Speaker 2: we returned to the roundtable on Friday for our deeper
Speaker 2: reactions and conversations.
Speaker 4: Will Aaron who.
Speaker 1: Knows for this episode.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young and
Speaker 2: Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 4: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3: Our supervising producer is Abu Safar.
Speaker 4: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wax.
Speaker 2: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 4: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and
Speaker 4: Heidi our Discord moderate them