Speaker 1: Loud and Quiet Presents Midnight Chats.
Speaker 2: Evening listeners, Welcome to a new midnight Chats. Some of
Speaker 2: these podcasts we allowed to bake for a little while
Speaker 2: after we've done them, and others are more like a
Speaker 2: kind of catch of the day where we record them
Speaker 2: and turn them around while they're still fresh. It's midnight
Speaker 2: on Thursday, the twenty seventh of September. The year is
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, and on Monday just gone, I met up
Speaker 2: with Anna Calvey to record the conversation you're about to
Speaker 2: hear now. I wasn't aware of this until I was
Speaker 2: leaving the place where I'd met up with Anna, but
Speaker 2: it was actually her birthday that day, and if i'd
Speaker 2: have known, I probably would have sung Happy Birthday to
Speaker 2: her on this podcast. But probably for the best that
Speaker 2: I didn't and spared her and I that embarrassment. But
Speaker 2: maybe it didn't surprise me that she didn't mention it,
Speaker 2: as Anna doesn't strike me as someone who wants to
Speaker 2: make a fuss about that kind of thing. In fact,
Speaker 2: it's rare for you to read or hear anything about
Speaker 2: her that doesn't mention her unassuming manner and her soft
Speaker 2: speaking voice. But what I learned from meeting up with
Speaker 2: her is definitely don't mistake that exterior shyness for a
Speaker 2: lack of ferocity and vision or opinions as you're about
Speaker 2: to hear before I share that with you though. This
Speaker 2: is the fourth episode in a fresh run of Midnight
Speaker 2: Chats this autumn. If you haven't caught up yet, do
Speaker 2: check out those that we've put out already, me chatting
Speaker 2: to Interpol and Stuart going to Brett Anderson's house and
Speaker 2: having some fun with Chili Gonzalez. If you're into this
Speaker 2: new series as ever, do rate the podcast wherever you're
Speaker 2: listening to this or leave a comment that helps other
Speaker 2: people discover what we do, and of course do subscribe.
Speaker 2: That's an important one. We've also just put out a
Speaker 2: new edition of the magazine that we make Loud and Quiet.
Speaker 2: Yoko Ono is our cover feature interview this month, which
Speaker 2: is exciting and it's Loud and Quiet dot com for
Speaker 2: more information about that if you want to get hold
Speaker 2: of a copy, on with episode fifty four of Midnight
Speaker 2: Chats and My Guest Tonight. Last month, Anna Calviy released Hunter,
Speaker 2: her third album, a record that thematically is about the
Speaker 2: feeling of truly letting go. In the official blurb that
Speaker 2: goes along with these kind of things, it's described as
Speaker 2: a queer and feminist record, a visceral album exploring sexuality
Speaker 2: and breaking the laws of gender conformity, as vulnerable as
Speaker 2: it is strong, as beautiful as it is hush. And
Speaker 2: that's the backdrop to my chat with the South London songwriter.
Speaker 2: But we also caught up about the Mercury Prize, which
Speaker 2: happened last week. We also met doing that a few
Speaker 2: years back and discussed the progress that needs to be
Speaker 2: made around the constructs of gender in society. What else
Speaker 2: the Bad Seeds, Patti Smith, store cards, bootstore cards, loads
Speaker 2: of stuff that we talked about, and I also listed
Speaker 2: off a bunch of rubbish bands that I was in
Speaker 2: as a teenager, So do enjoy that part and I
Speaker 2: calvey then seeing in another year on Planet Earth with
Speaker 2: this episode of Midnight Chats, and welcome to our podcast
Speaker 2: Midnight Chats, Hie. How are you doing today?
Speaker 3: I'm very well, thanks.
Speaker 2: I just pointed out to you wearing a really nice
Speaker 2: cozy looking fleece, this lovely like sheep esque. Getting into autumn,
Speaker 2: you kind of need that stuff.
Speaker 4: I'm always cold are you? And other people say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: me too, but it's like no comparison. I've never met
Speaker 4: anyone as cold as me.
Speaker 2: Do you like going into winter and like layering up
Speaker 2: and doing all that stuff, or where you just just
Speaker 2: bring me the summer.
Speaker 4: I'm horrified by the winter. Yeah, I'm cold in the summer.
Speaker 4: That's how bad it is.
Speaker 2: Cold this summer. Yeah, we got reptile blood.
Speaker 3: I think I have.
Speaker 2: How's things? How are you today?
Speaker 3: I'm very well. Yeah.
Speaker 4: About to go on tour. It starts on the twenty
Speaker 4: seventh of September, so I'm preparing that deep in rehearsals.
Speaker 2: Is that what you've been doing with most of your
Speaker 2: time recently?
Speaker 4: H Yeah, rehearsing and kind of buying all the things
Speaker 4: that you sort of forget when you're on tour and
Speaker 4: you're like, oh no, I don't have X.
Speaker 3: So now I'm just trying to be as prepared as
Speaker 3: I can.
Speaker 2: Is it like going on holiday where you have to
Speaker 2: go to wherever beforehand boots, run around the shops and
Speaker 2: like be like I've got my long list of things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like how did I manage to spend seventy pounds.
Speaker 3: In boots? Now? Is this even possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, at least to get the points on.
Speaker 3: No, I don't. I don't do cards.
Speaker 2: I don't you don't go for the loyalty cards.
Speaker 4: No, I don't like them. I don't believe in them.
Speaker 2: There's something a bit creepy about how it's basically their
Speaker 2: way of just following your purchases.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker 2: It's lovely to have you on the podcast. The last
Speaker 2: time that you and I met was a few years
Speaker 2: ago because we were both involved with the Mercury Prize
Speaker 2: and we're invited to be judges on that, which, certainly
Speaker 2: from my point of view, was a real real pleasure
Speaker 2: to be involved with something that i'd followed for many years.
Speaker 2: How did you find the experience of doing that, because
Speaker 2: you've done the Mercury Prize judging things.
Speaker 4: I've done it twice. Yeah, I think it's really interesting
Speaker 4: how you know how to see on the other side,
Speaker 4: because I've been nominated and judged it, and it's kind
Speaker 4: of really kind of amazing how passionate people are about it.
Speaker 4: But also it's really hard to listen to that many albums,
Speaker 4: didn't you find I think.
Speaker 2: The year that we did it, which was twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: I think it was the year that we were both
Speaker 2: doing it. It was something like two hundred and fifty albums. Yeah,
Speaker 2: to get through. How long was it? Like? Three months?
Speaker 2: Four months?
Speaker 4: It didn't feel very long, no considering how many you
Speaker 4: had to listen to.
Speaker 2: When people ask me what the experience was like, I
Speaker 2: said that it was really exciting because I never felt
Speaker 2: like I was across more British and Irish music than
Speaker 2: I did at that point. Because you get given this
Speaker 2: vast amount of music, but equally did kind of take
Speaker 2: over your life from it? What was your like coping
Speaker 2: way of doing it? Because I was. I found that
Speaker 2: to get through the list of albums that they give you,
Speaker 2: I was like getting up in the morning, put my
Speaker 2: headphones on, like make up my breakfast, definitely listening to
Speaker 2: music on my way to work, maybe a bit in
Speaker 2: my lunch break, and then definitely coming home in the evening.
Speaker 2: And I'd worked out that I needed to get through
Speaker 2: a certain amount of albums a day.
Speaker 3: You were so organized.
Speaker 2: I think I was just more scared not being able to.
Speaker 2: I'm always like, I'm one of those people that plans
Speaker 2: ahead to just in order just not to screw up.
Speaker 4: I can't really remember how I did it, but I
Speaker 4: do remember I would make notes on the ones that
Speaker 4: I wanted to come back to because they had something interesting.
Speaker 4: And I guess the thing that it really made me
Speaker 4: think about is, I mean, how important the first song
Speaker 4: is on a record, and that like you really have
Speaker 4: to grab people with that first song, and not just
Speaker 4: the song but the production of it. It's hard to
Speaker 4: like be like, oh wow, this is interesting when it
Speaker 4: just comes in with an acoustic guitar going gee g gee.
Speaker 4: You know, it's like that's not putting your best foot forward.
Speaker 2: You know, I know exactly what you mean. You need
Speaker 2: to grab the attention, don't you. Yeah, this is all
Speaker 2: timely because the Mercury Prize happened last week and so
Speaker 2: Wolf Allice won it this year. But the experience of well,
Speaker 2: for people that aren't massively familiar for how it works.
Speaker 2: You're given as a judge, you're given a list of
Speaker 2: albums listen to. You have to get to them all
Speaker 2: you submit I think it's around a dozen to then
Speaker 2: be considered, and it's narrowed down to the shortlist, which
Speaker 2: gets shared and then on the night the judges for
Speaker 2: the award get into a room and they battle it
Speaker 2: out and eventually come out with one name and it's
Speaker 2: and so one away from the listening side of it,
Speaker 2: how did you find the night of it when you
Speaker 2: were in the room, like discussing the pros and cons
Speaker 2: of albums as an artist? Did you find that useful?
Speaker 2: Did you find it interesting hearing this mixture of musicians
Speaker 2: and critics and broadcasters all kind of sharing their views
Speaker 2: on things.
Speaker 4: I think the tricky thing about it is it's not
Speaker 4: really about your take. It's because they were as I
Speaker 4: understand it, it's about does it reflect British music in
Speaker 4: that year? And that's a funny one because that doesn't
Speaker 4: It might reflect it, but that doesn't mean it's good.
Speaker 2: It's sarand he reflected British music like two years ago
Speaker 2: within got nomination.
Speaker 4: But maybe in a way it's good that it's slightly
Speaker 4: removed from you. It's good to develop the ability to
Speaker 4: listen to music and think this isn't for me, but
Speaker 4: I can see the value in it. And that's what
Speaker 4: you really had to do. Doing the Mercurys is like,
Speaker 4: even if it's not for you, you can still see
Speaker 4: that it reflects something important that's happening. But at the
Speaker 4: beginning I found that a bit tricky to separate how
Speaker 4: I really felt when.
Speaker 2: I first did it as well, it felt like there
Speaker 2: were a lot of wise and experienced voices in that
Speaker 2: room debating these things. He'd done this thing before, and
Speaker 2: I walked in and absolutely no idea what to say.
Speaker 2: I kind of knew what I wanted to say, but
Speaker 2: didn't have the confidence to sort of share my opinions
Speaker 2: and stuff. But you grow into it. I think, you know, what,
Speaker 2: if you get nominated for the Mercury Prize again, will
Speaker 2: you be thinking knowing that these sort of conversations happen
Speaker 2: about your music? You know exactly what the process was.
Speaker 2: Now been on the other side of the fence and
Speaker 2: experienced that and heard people analyze and deconstruct music to
Speaker 2: the ends. Degree would that be? How would you feel
Speaker 2: about that?
Speaker 4: It makes you realize what an amazing thing is to
Speaker 4: just get on that nominated list, and how many albums
Speaker 4: they will have to listen to to come to the
Speaker 4: conclusion that yours was worth being on that list. I
Speaker 4: think that's the main thing, because I think the last bit,
Speaker 4: like I said about you know, does it reflect British music.
Speaker 4: That's not really about whether your record is good or not,
Speaker 4: but there is that difficult moment where it goes from
Speaker 4: people talking about everything they like about it and then
Speaker 4: it's about the power of deduction of like you know
Speaker 4: where with the holes and each album. That's the bit
Speaker 4: that I I definitely wouldn't want to be in a
Speaker 4: fly on the wall if they did that with my record.
Speaker 2: They're very encouraging to be positive and talk about the
Speaker 2: spend time talking about all of the positives around each release,
Speaker 2: but then there has to come that moment where it's like, well,
Speaker 2: now we've got to talk about the merits of this
Speaker 2: album versus this album, and then those conversations creeping and
Speaker 2: then people, you know, people's voices get slightly loud. There's
Speaker 2: a few bits of like table banging and all that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff.
Speaker 4: It was all very civilized, though I wanted there to
Speaker 4: be some kind of fight someone walked out and discussed.
Speaker 2: You know, I wonder if that's ever happened.
Speaker 3: Ye.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the year that we were on it was quite
Speaker 2: very civilized. Nobody had anybody else up against the wall
Speaker 2: being to win. So you released Hunter, your third album
Speaker 2: a few weeks ago. Now, how did it feel to
Speaker 2: share that album with everybody? And how have you felt
Speaker 2: about the reaction to the record.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've been really happy with how it's been received.
Speaker 4: I think because the record is very much about specific
Speaker 4: themes and things that I'm really passionate about. My marker
Speaker 4: of success is have I translated that to the listener,
Speaker 4: whether you like it or not. It's not so much
Speaker 4: the point as and you know, do people understand what
Speaker 4: I'm trying to do? And for the most part, I
Speaker 4: felt that in terms of reviews and stuff, that people
Speaker 4: have understood what I was trying to do. And then
Speaker 4: from a more personal point of view, it seems that
Speaker 4: people who follow me have been really loving it, and
Speaker 4: that just really feels wonderful and really warms my heart.
Speaker 4: When you care about something so much, it means so
Speaker 4: much when people respond to it.
Speaker 2: I want to get into talking about the themes that
Speaker 2: you discuss on Hunter, surely, but for people who know
Speaker 2: your name perhaps and know some of your music, but
Speaker 2: maybe don't know that much of your story, tell me
Speaker 2: about your kind of like your first introductions and kind
Speaker 2: of foragers into music, where you found your first kind
Speaker 2: of loves was that at home? You know, was music
Speaker 2: introduced to you by your parents? Like where did that
Speaker 2: that love of music and then going on to perform music?
Speaker 2: Where did they all kind of foster?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I guess there was always a lot of music in
Speaker 4: my in my house and my parents were you know,
Speaker 4: hippies in the sixties, so they they had all these
Speaker 4: kind of great record were a massive record collection, which
Speaker 4: I devoured when I was a teenager, and I'd been
Speaker 4: playing the violin since I was six. When I was eight,
Speaker 4: I saw Jimi Hendrix play. There was a video of
Speaker 4: Woodstock and that just after that, I.
Speaker 2: Was like, was that like a VHS or something?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was like, forget about the violin, you know,
Speaker 4: I want to play the guitar. And my dad played guitar.
Speaker 4: He played kind of rock and roll stuff on the guitar,
Speaker 4: and I got him to teach me some stuff and
Speaker 4: then I started, you know, trying to write songs. I
Speaker 4: think I wrote my first song when I was twelve,
Speaker 4: called Isolation, which is slightly worrying. And I came to
Speaker 4: singing very late. I was really into the guitar and
Speaker 4: that was my thing. But I loved the idea of
Speaker 4: being able to be so liberated and free that you
Speaker 4: could go to sing. And it was a long journey
Speaker 4: for me to become a singer because I'm shy and
Speaker 4: my voice is very quiet. But I gradually kind of
Speaker 4: chipped away at this voice and I just really put
Speaker 4: hours and hours and hours listening to singers I loved,
Speaker 4: like Scott Walker or Elvis or Edith Path, and gradually
Speaker 4: this kind of voice grew and to what it is now.
Speaker 4: But it started, you know, as a little waif you know,
Speaker 4: I mean, it was like my speaking voice, and now
Speaker 4: it's become this animal.
Speaker 2: It's a nice way of describing it. What about the
Speaker 2: lyrical side of things. It's one thing on that journey
Speaker 2: to discover that you can share your voice, but it's
Speaker 2: another one to develop your personality and try and articulate
Speaker 2: feelings in your lyrics. So did that come in tandem
Speaker 2: or did they move at different speeds at different times?
Speaker 4: I think lyrics I always felt less confident about, and
Speaker 4: I feel I made a bit of a breakthrough with
Speaker 4: this record in finding a way of being It's trying
Speaker 4: to find a balance between being mysterious and direct and
Speaker 4: if you go too far on either way, you kind
Speaker 4: of lose the power. And I feel like this time
Speaker 4: was the first time I really feel that I've found
Speaker 4: a way through this balance.
Speaker 2: How do you think you found that breakthrough? Is that
Speaker 2: just a bit more experience.
Speaker 3: I think it's experienced.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And also think I had a lot to say
Speaker 4: on this record, and that really helps. I knew what
Speaker 4: I wanted to say. I knew that I wanted it
Speaker 4: to be clear enough that if you wanted to listen
Speaker 4: to the lyrics, you could find where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4: But I wanted the music to be strong enough that
Speaker 4: you don't have to listen to the lyrics to be
Speaker 4: able to understand the emotion of the song.
Speaker 2: And before we talk a little bit about that, with
Speaker 2: the influence of your parents on your music taste, was
Speaker 2: your dad in any eight bands? Did he get to
Speaker 2: go and watch him play?
Speaker 4: No, I mean he was in a band when he
Speaker 4: was like twenty or something.
Speaker 2: Did any evidence of that still exist?
Speaker 4: Oh, that would be so amazing if it did, but
Speaker 4: I don't think so. But he looked very cool. I
Speaker 4: mean he used to wear a cloak. Oh yeah, he
Speaker 4: was a pretty outBut frog.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was it like more traditional like rock and
Speaker 2: roll stuff or what kind of thing did he play?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he liked kind of Chuck Berry and he was
Speaker 4: in to the Beatles and Captain Beefheart and I guess,
Speaker 4: you know, like classic sixties stuff.
Speaker 2: Would your moment this similar kind of thing or was
Speaker 2: he mean something different?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean they were both a bit you know, a
Speaker 4: bit mental.
Speaker 2: I like to think forward thinking the stuff that you
Speaker 2: were discovering.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean there's always this thing of my mum going
Speaker 4: on about how much acid they drop to my dad
Speaker 4: trying to stop her telling us.
Speaker 2: What were they like? Were they always quite encouraging to you,
Speaker 2: like as a young person when it came to music
Speaker 2: discovery and just like social experience and stuff. Were they
Speaker 2: open minded?
Speaker 3: Yeah? They were very.
Speaker 4: You know, they weren't strict at all. And I mean
Speaker 4: my dad did a lot for me, you know, like
Speaker 4: he would take me to rehearsals when I was sixteen
Speaker 4: in my first band, and we'd go to guitar shops together,
Speaker 4: and I mean I really kind of owe a lot
Speaker 4: to him, really, and on my first record actually dedicated
Speaker 4: it to him, because, yeah, I don't think I would
Speaker 4: be a musician if it wasn't for him.
Speaker 2: Not that I'm a successful musician like yourself, but I
Speaker 2: still have fond memories and going to my first band
Speaker 2: practices when I was a teenager and the parents of
Speaker 2: the you know, people that was in a band with
Speaker 2: at the time, you just think of them as like,
Speaker 2: come on, dad or mum, like you just like you
Speaker 2: just help me out, like we need to get this
Speaker 2: pa system into the back of that forward focus. But
Speaker 2: now you just think, wow, like it's actually I feel
Speaker 2: very kind of grateful for them just being there doing
Speaker 2: that and encouraging it, and probably not I don't know
Speaker 2: what there was genuinely going through their mind when they
Speaker 2: came to watch us play gigs, whether they were.
Speaker 3: What kind of band were you in?
Speaker 2: They were kind of went through different stages, to be honest,
Speaker 2: I was always in band with my brother and so
Speaker 2: my music tastes would kind of mirror his as we went.
Speaker 2: His first band, he'll hate me if he's listening to this,
Speaker 2: But the world needs to know. This was a status
Speaker 2: quo covers band called one hundred percent and their first
Speaker 2: gig was playing outside of shopping center in Hereford and
Speaker 2: we went there and it was a Saturday afternoon and
Speaker 2: they just had played status quo covers for about an hour.
Speaker 2: There is video footage of that that exists, but I
Speaker 2: didn't manage to share that is wedding unfortunately, to recover
Speaker 2: it to share other people. But from then on it
Speaker 2: was like he went a bit brip pop. So he
Speaker 2: did love like Oasis bands like that. He would write
Speaker 2: the songs. I would write the lyrics and he would sing.
Speaker 2: Looking back, my lyrics were very strange and I was
Speaker 2: trying to be very clever, but it was really a
Speaker 2: thirteen or fourteen year old trying to be really smart
Speaker 2: with my lyrics. I wrote a song called prune Juice
Speaker 2: once that was the big hit. And yeah, we went on.
Speaker 2: I guess things evolved and they went through a stage
Speaker 2: of sounding a bit like the Redheart Chili Peppers, and
Speaker 2: then there was like a grunge thing. There was a
Speaker 2: big So this is like the late nineties going into
Speaker 2: the early two thousands. Then like new metal came along,
Speaker 2: didn't it. That was strange. We did sound a little
Speaker 2: bit new metal for a while. I feel like, actually
Speaker 2: talking about it now makes it sound like we kind
Speaker 2: of chased whatever the popular sound was at the time
Speaker 2: and that was a really bad idea. We don't make
Speaker 2: music together anymore, but I do think I wonder what
Speaker 2: if we got together in a room now, what it
Speaker 2: would actually sound.
Speaker 3: Like, hmmm sharing?
Speaker 2: Probably, yeah, exactly. I'm going to go and make a
Speaker 2: new George Esra album with my brother next week. Probably, yeah.
Speaker 2: But those formative experiences I've still got really fond memories,
Speaker 2: even though I would feel very embarrassed of kind of
Speaker 2: like sticking the cassette on or in whatever form it
Speaker 2: exists now, listening back to it. But yeah, definitely, the
Speaker 2: parental support is something that I was kind of very
Speaker 2: fond of. You went on to study music, didn't you,
Speaker 2: at university, and then after that you taught guitar for
Speaker 2: quite a long time. What was that experience like? Did
Speaker 2: you enjoy the experience of kind of mentoring people through
Speaker 2: different stages of their aptitude for guitar.
Speaker 4: I generally only like doing stuff I'm good at, which
Speaker 4: maybe is bad. But I didn't really feel I was
Speaker 4: a very good guitar teacher because the way that I
Speaker 4: learned the guitar was by ear and by writing my
Speaker 4: own stuff, and I never had a teacher, and so
Speaker 4: then it was quite hard to then try and teach
Speaker 4: what was not taught to me. And I did have
Speaker 4: some pupils that I was fond of and I you know,
Speaker 4: would like to see them, but in general, I am yeah,
Speaker 4: I didn't feel that I was the best teacher in
Speaker 4: the world.
Speaker 2: Did you enjoy seeing the process of people get better
Speaker 2: and learn though? Was that the most rewarding thing about that? Also?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean some of them didn't be fair. I mean,
Speaker 4: I think I think the nicest thing about it was
Speaker 4: like being able to be encouraging to someone and help
Speaker 4: their confidence, whether or not they got better or not.
Speaker 4: I just I just felt it was so important to
Speaker 4: like give praise when it was due and make someone
Speaker 4: feel good about themselves, especially because you know, I guess
Speaker 4: a lot of them were kids or teenagers when you
Speaker 4: really need that. And I remember, you know, you know
Speaker 4: how how important heats can be when you're young in
Speaker 4: terms of like, you know, you look up to them,
Speaker 4: and you know want want them to think you're good
Speaker 4: at what you do. I don't know, maybe they all
Speaker 4: hate me, but if you know, if I could have
Speaker 4: been that for some of them, then you know, it
Speaker 4: felt like a worthwhile thing to do. But I don't
Speaker 4: think I could do it again.
Speaker 2: How did that step between doing that, was that, like
Speaker 2: the main job you're doing for a number of years,
Speaker 2: we're doing different things at the same time, Or yeah.
Speaker 4: I did a bit of session work as a guitarist
Speaker 4: and just teaching.
Speaker 3: I did that for a while.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Hunter. Then. It's an album that you
Speaker 2: described as a utopian vision. What do you mean by
Speaker 2: that and how does it paint a utopian vision?
Speaker 4: I guess for me, the record is about trying to
Speaker 4: find a place where you're not being defined by your
Speaker 4: gender or what's being expected of you because of the
Speaker 4: gender that you are, and just finding a real freedom
Speaker 4: and liberation in that. I guess that's what I mean
Speaker 4: by kind of utopian. Specifically for me, exploring the idea
Speaker 4: of a woman who was a hunter, who goes into
Speaker 4: the world and sees it as hers and takes what
Speaker 4: she wants from it and explores her pleasure without any
Speaker 4: sense of shame. This felt really important for me to
Speaker 4: kind of explore this because I'm so tired of seeing
Speaker 4: women being depicted as being hunted by men in the
Speaker 4: media and in films, and I just wanted to give
Speaker 4: a more I guess multifested viewpoint of what a woman is,
Speaker 4: because if I compare what the women are like in
Speaker 4: my life compared with how women are depicted in our society,
Speaker 4: there's such a disconnect between the reality, and I think
Speaker 4: it's to the disservice of everyone and also for men too,
Speaker 4: that these very small window of you know, what a
Speaker 4: man is meant to be, and how limiting that is
Speaker 4: for men as well.
Speaker 2: When we talk about we already discussed your parents, for example,
Speaker 2: who sound quite kind of progressive in the way that
Speaker 2: they know, you know, their views on things. But so
Speaker 2: much has changed when I think of like my parents
Speaker 2: and me now and then the generation below that there
Speaker 2: is this evolution in attitude towards gender. Do you see
Speaker 2: any encoaging science that that is happening in any mediums? TV? Film? Example?
Speaker 4: I have to say not really in politics or in
Speaker 4: TV or film. It's so male centric and even the
Speaker 4: idea of what constitutes are strong in politics. I mean, really,
Speaker 4: I think you know, a successful politician would be about
Speaker 4: someone who's good at communicating, not about someone who's so
Speaker 4: arrogant that they only have their view and they don't
Speaker 4: want to do anything else. Maybe that kind of idea
Speaker 4: was useful when we were cave people, but you know,
Speaker 4: now we live in a world where communication is how
Speaker 4: you solve problems. It's about being able to listen. I
Speaker 4: think the one thing that feels positive is it feels
Speaker 4: that young people are more aware of not wanting to
Speaker 4: be pigeonholed and in one you know that a man
Speaker 4: has to be this and a woman has to be this,
Speaker 4: and that feels really positive. And I guess just you
Speaker 4: know that there are a lot of young people, say
Speaker 4: who don't want to define themselves as straight, or they
Speaker 4: realize that the spectrum of human experience isn't something that
Speaker 4: you can necessarily put in boxes.
Speaker 2: When you were thinking about this almost that kind of
Speaker 2: overarching theme of the album, are these like thoughts that
Speaker 2: you'd had for a long time and were trying to
Speaker 2: find a way to articulate, Or was it or did
Speaker 2: it come to you in the sort of early genesis
Speaker 2: of the album to them want to do it together?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think its thoughts that I've had for a
Speaker 4: long time because I'm very aware of you know, I'm
Speaker 4: very passionately feminist in my belief and also the belief
Speaker 4: that feminism benefits men and women. It just made sense
Speaker 4: that this would come out in my music and that
Speaker 4: it would come out in my lyrics. And when I
Speaker 4: had noticed that I was singing about these things, I felt,
Speaker 4: you know, that this really was the right track to
Speaker 4: go down, and I felt excited to explore it.
Speaker 2: That whole question of kind of nature versus nurture. When
Speaker 2: we talk about the construct of gender and what people
Speaker 2: you know, this becomes this imposed thing of what people
Speaker 2: understand goes along with those things we had. We did
Speaker 2: a podcast, one of these podcasts recently with Gaz Combs.
Speaker 2: He was very much talking about how his album was
Speaker 2: a meditation on how he wanted to challenge himself as
Speaker 2: a man and how he that stretch across generations because
Speaker 2: he has children now he's a father to daughters, but
Speaker 2: then also thinking about his parents and the way that
Speaker 2: they kind of encourage him to do different things. And
Speaker 2: he was talking about the language that gets used around
Speaker 2: these constructs, around men and around women. But in his experience,
Speaker 2: those phrases that get you hear people say obviously of
Speaker 2: that man up and like don't cry and kind of
Speaker 2: like be a man, and all those really kind of
Speaker 2: quite dangerous things that have just become very normalized. Almost.
Speaker 2: Do you get frustrated by a lot of the kind
Speaker 2: of language in the way that things just get assumed
Speaker 2: and you know, you only have to walk outside to
Speaker 2: hear that kind of thing, don't you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, there is such a fear of the
Speaker 4: women in society to the point where the idea of
Speaker 4: a man expressing feminine traits and feminine has become synonymous
Speaker 4: with weakness, even though I mean, I obviously I don't
Speaker 4: believe that that's the essence of what a woman is.
Speaker 4: That almost the ultimate insult for a man is that
Speaker 4: he has become weak like a woman. The idea of
Speaker 4: man up is is is very offensive to men and women,
Speaker 4: I think, and I do. I do think that language
Speaker 4: has really really sends us really powerful messages unconsciously, and
Speaker 4: I always feel very very aware of that, you know,
Speaker 4: the gender of language from a female perspective, even things
Speaker 4: like the way that when we talk about women talking
Speaker 4: to each other, you know, we use the word gossip,
Speaker 4: which is kind of limiting what they have to say,
Speaker 4: whereas you know, women communicating with each other is is
Speaker 4: you know, so much more than that, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 4: there's there's lots of ways in which, you know, language
Speaker 4: kind of plays a part unconsciously in how we see us.
Speaker 2: Where do you think it starts and what examples particularly
Speaker 2: catch your attention? For example, from the moment that a child,
Speaker 2: the news of a child is going to arrive. Is
Speaker 2: like when a friends and family who've deliberately not shared
Speaker 2: the gender of their forthcoming child because they don't want
Speaker 2: people to go out and rush out and buy princess
Speaker 2: and pink outfits if it's going to be a door
Speaker 2: or fireman's outfit and all those kind of old fashioned
Speaker 2: kind of understandings of gender. You know they've deliberately done
Speaker 2: that because they don't want to impose that on children.
Speaker 2: And so it starts. It goes straight from there, doesn't it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I guess you know, as a child, you're
Speaker 4: you're constantly learning who you are and what society is
Speaker 4: and how you need to behave and react to the
Speaker 4: society that you're born into. And so I suppose as
Speaker 4: soon as you're born, you're you're learning cues from everything
Speaker 4: around you. I think you know, even without meaning to,
Speaker 4: it's very easy to kind of talk differently to kids
Speaker 4: of different genders. I mean even like you know, saying oh,
Speaker 4: you know, my little man, it's like you wouldn't say oh,
Speaker 4: my little woman to a baby girl. And there's this
Speaker 4: idea that even when a little boy is tiny, it's
Speaker 4: like he has to kind of exhibit traits of strength
Speaker 4: that he's going to grow into a man, you know.
Speaker 4: And yeah, it's a tricky one because I guess it's
Speaker 4: a very slow wave of change and it's not going
Speaker 4: to happen overnight. But I think at least an awareness
Speaker 4: of this stuff is important, I guess for parents, and
Speaker 4: I think it is happening. I think there are definitely
Speaker 4: more parents thinking about not wanting to put pressures on
Speaker 4: boys or girls to be a certain way.
Speaker 2: Do you think art art, in its many different forms,
Speaker 2: whether that's literature and music, dad's theater, film, does it
Speaker 2: help people communicate the way they feel about this kind
Speaker 2: of stuff? So do you think that art can be
Speaker 2: a useful thing? Like if you make an album like Hunter,
Speaker 2: somebody can go I identify with it. It's really helped me
Speaker 2: understand my own thought process and then I can go
Speaker 2: out and have those conversations with friends or family or whatever.
Speaker 2: That is that a hope for you or do you
Speaker 2: think do you think art it can be a useful
Speaker 2: conduit for that kind of thing.
Speaker 4: I think it more than anything. It holds up a
Speaker 4: mirror to the culture that we're in, and you need
Speaker 4: to have some distance to be able to understand and
Speaker 4: assess what something is. And I think the mirror provides
Speaker 4: distance so we can look at where we are and
Speaker 4: and decide is that what we want?
Speaker 3: Is that?
Speaker 4: Is that all life is meant to be? And maybe
Speaker 4: there could be more. I think that's the point of
Speaker 4: art really in some ways for me, For this record,
Speaker 4: I wanted to be galvanizing, you know, I wanted it
Speaker 4: doesn't have to be. I didn't particularly want an intellectual response.
Speaker 4: I wanted an emotional viscoal response and a listener that
Speaker 4: just makes you. You know, when music makes you want
Speaker 4: to just be a bit different in your life, like
Speaker 4: it just wakes you up for a minute. That's the
Speaker 4: most powerful tool of music. And obviously that would be
Speaker 4: the dream that that could this record could do that
Speaker 4: for someone. That would be my ultimate feeling of it.
Speaker 4: You know, I'd made something worthwhile.
Speaker 2: I really like the powerful visuals that you've created to
Speaker 2: go along with the music they've released so far from
Speaker 2: the album the video of a Hunter, which you collaborated
Speaker 2: with Matthew Lambert, Is that right? Just explain somebody if
Speaker 2: they've not seen the video for that song what you
Speaker 2: and Matthew set out and wanted to achieve with the
Speaker 2: visuals that you made for that.
Speaker 4: We were just really interested in exploring how queer people
Speaker 4: explore their bodies and their own sense of pleasure, because,
Speaker 4: I mean, some of my record deals with this idea
Speaker 4: that when you're queer, you're not allowed to just simply
Speaker 4: be in love. You have to keep asking yourself questions
Speaker 4: about identity and what are other people going to think?
Speaker 4: And all these things that've got nothing to do with you.
Speaker 4: That's the baggage of society that hasn't caught up with
Speaker 4: you know something more. Yeah, So we were talking about
Speaker 4: how powerful at this moment is when you are without
Speaker 4: shame exploring your pleasure, you know, as a queer person.
Speaker 4: You know, we really wanted to show that in this
Speaker 4: in this film. I felt I was really moved by
Speaker 4: this video. I mean, I found it so powerful, this
Speaker 4: kind of health, the sense of freedom that you feel
Speaker 4: on these two people when they're exploring themselves, and also
Speaker 4: how strange it is that maybe it's from Biblical times,
Speaker 4: this idea of pleasure being a sin, and how it's
Speaker 4: still in our subconscious that to explore our bodies and
Speaker 4: to pleasure ourselves is somehow shameful, and here are these
Speaker 4: people doing it in the most transcendent, beautiful way, and
Speaker 4: I feel like it's a really important message.
Speaker 2: On the music side of this. Putting the record together,
Speaker 2: you recorded in London. You had Adrian Utley from Porter
Speaker 2: Said came and collaborated with you, and you also had
Speaker 2: Martin Casey from The Bad Seeds. What was the experience
Speaker 2: of bringing those musicians into the fold for the recording
Speaker 2: part of.
Speaker 4: This, Like I mean, I also had Maley Harpas and
Speaker 4: Alex Thomas, who my band that I tour with, they've
Speaker 4: played on the record too, but having Adrian Utley and Marty,
Speaker 4: I guess with Adrian, I was really interested in trying
Speaker 4: to create kind of soundscapes and orchestral sounds, but not
Speaker 4: using orchestral instruments. And he has such an amazing knowledge
Speaker 4: of all the possible sense that you could ever use,
Speaker 4: and the way that he plays them is like he's
Speaker 4: playing a cello or something. It's very very unique to
Speaker 4: him and with Marty, I guess, you know, I've always
Speaker 4: been such a fan of the sound that the Bad
Speaker 4: Seed to make and this kind of wild abandon that
Speaker 4: they have, and it was my producer, Nick Lorney's suggestion
Speaker 4: to have him board, and you know, I think he
Speaker 4: really came up with some incredible you know, basslines, and
Speaker 4: you know, he really added something to the record.
Speaker 2: Do you remember the first time that you saw The
Speaker 2: Bad Seeds perform.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it was around two thousand and seven,
Speaker 4: and it was when I was actually writing my first record,
Speaker 4: and I was just so blown away. And I was
Speaker 4: lucky enough to support Nick Kay's other band, Grinderman. That
Speaker 4: was the first tour I ever did was to support Grinderman,
Speaker 4: and that was like a crash course in how to
Speaker 4: be in a band. I mean, they're just so awesome,
Speaker 4: you know, on stage, off stage, you know, so charismatic,
Speaker 4: just so bad at us.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I wanted to talk to
Speaker 2: you about was a topic of conversation that came up
Speaker 2: when we recorded this podcast with Nadine Shah quite a
Speaker 2: while ago now, but she was talking about the representations
Speaker 2: of the voices of older women in music on festival bills,
Speaker 2: you know, on TV, on opportunities that come along with
Speaker 2: being a musician. When you stop and think and say,
Speaker 2: who are the slightly older female artists that get the
Speaker 2: opportunity the same platforms as older male artists, you can't
Speaker 2: think of that many. It feels like it's it's much
Speaker 2: more difficult for them to be heard and to be
Speaker 2: seen and you know, to share their work. Do you
Speaker 2: think there's truth in that? Because it's when you stop
Speaker 2: and thinking, go, where's why aren't our festival bills full
Speaker 2: of Patti Smith's, Well, they're full of lots of other old,
Speaker 2: older male artists. Seems that that seems to be a
Speaker 2: you know, passed off as nostalgia and that's totally fine.
Speaker 2: Whereas it's like, well, yeah, where are yeah, the voices
Speaker 2: of slightly older female artists. I think that's the truth
Speaker 2: in that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, you know, where are the older women
Speaker 4: in all parts of cultural life?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: Which is so I mean, when you get older, as
Speaker 4: it is for a lot of men, you know, they
Speaker 4: become more confident, they've had life experience, they have more
Speaker 4: to say, and we respect these men because they have
Speaker 4: this experience, and yet women if they're not you know,
Speaker 4: hot young things, and you know, they don't get the
Speaker 4: opportunity to be on TV or because so much emphasis
Speaker 4: on a woman's worth is put on her body. Once
Speaker 4: her body gets old, she's presented as not giving anything
Speaker 4: left to society. And I think it's represented in always,
Speaker 4: including in the arts, and it frustrates me so much
Speaker 4: because just as men, young men need male role models,
Speaker 4: young women need to see older women. It's it's really important.
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