WEBVTT - Ep 54: Anna Calvi

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<v Speaker 1>Loud and Quiet Presents Midnight Chats.

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<v Speaker 2>Evening listeners, Welcome to a new midnight Chats. Some of

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<v Speaker 2>these podcasts we allowed to bake for a little while

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<v Speaker 2>after we've done them, and others are more like a

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<v Speaker 2>kind of catch of the day where we record them

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<v Speaker 2>and turn them around while they're still fresh. It's midnight

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<v Speaker 2>on Thursday, the twenty seventh of September. The year is

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen, and on Monday just gone, I met up

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<v Speaker 2>with Anna Calvey to record the conversation you're about to

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<v Speaker 2>hear now. I wasn't aware of this until I was

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<v Speaker 2>leaving the place where I'd met up with Anna, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was actually her birthday that day, and if i'd

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<v Speaker 2>have known, I probably would have sung Happy Birthday to

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<v Speaker 2>her on this podcast. But probably for the best that

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't and spared her and I that embarrassment. But

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<v Speaker 2>maybe it didn't surprise me that she didn't mention it,

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<v Speaker 2>as Anna doesn't strike me as someone who wants to

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<v Speaker 2>make a fuss about that kind of thing. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>it's rare for you to read or hear anything about

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<v Speaker 2>her that doesn't mention her unassuming manner and her soft

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<v Speaker 2>speaking voice. But what I learned from meeting up with

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<v Speaker 2>her is definitely don't mistake that exterior shyness for a

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<v Speaker 2>lack of ferocity and vision or opinions as you're about

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<v Speaker 2>to hear before I share that with you though. This

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<v Speaker 2>is the fourth episode in a fresh run of Midnight

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<v Speaker 2>Chats this autumn. If you haven't caught up yet, do

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<v Speaker 2>check out those that we've put out already, me chatting

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<v Speaker 2>to Interpol and Stuart going to Brett Anderson's house and

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<v Speaker 2>having some fun with Chili Gonzalez. If you're into this

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<v Speaker 2>new series as ever, do rate the podcast wherever you're

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<v Speaker 2>listening to this or leave a comment that helps other

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<v Speaker 2>people discover what we do, and of course do subscribe.

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<v Speaker 2>That's an important one. We've also just put out a

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<v Speaker 2>new edition of the magazine that we make Loud and Quiet.

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<v Speaker 2>Yoko Ono is our cover feature interview this month, which

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<v Speaker 2>is exciting and it's Loud and Quiet dot com for

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<v Speaker 2>more information about that if you want to get hold

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<v Speaker 2>of a copy, on with episode fifty four of Midnight

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<v Speaker 2>Chats and My Guest Tonight. Last month, Anna Calviy released Hunter,

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<v Speaker 2>her third album, a record that thematically is about the

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<v Speaker 2>feeling of truly letting go. In the official blurb that

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<v Speaker 2>goes along with these kind of things, it's described as

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<v Speaker 2>a queer and feminist record, a visceral album exploring sexuality

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<v Speaker 2>and breaking the laws of gender conformity, as vulnerable as

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<v Speaker 2>it is strong, as beautiful as it is hush. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's the backdrop to my chat with the South London songwriter.

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<v Speaker 2>But we also caught up about the Mercury Prize, which

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<v Speaker 2>happened last week. We also met doing that a few

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<v Speaker 2>years back and discussed the progress that needs to be

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<v Speaker 2>made around the constructs of gender in society. What else

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<v Speaker 2>the Bad Seeds, Patti Smith, store cards, bootstore cards, loads

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff that we talked about, and I also listed

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<v Speaker 2>off a bunch of rubbish bands that I was in

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<v Speaker 2>as a teenager, So do enjoy that part and I

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<v Speaker 2>calvey then seeing in another year on Planet Earth with

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<v Speaker 2>this episode of Midnight Chats, and welcome to our podcast

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<v Speaker 2>Midnight Chats, Hie. How are you doing today?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm very well, thanks.

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<v Speaker 2>I just pointed out to you wearing a really nice

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<v Speaker 2>cozy looking fleece, this lovely like sheep esque. Getting into autumn,

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<v Speaker 2>you kind of need that stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm always cold are you? And other people say, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>me too, but it's like no comparison. I've never met

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<v Speaker 4>anyone as cold as me.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you like going into winter and like layering up

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<v Speaker 2>and doing all that stuff, or where you just just

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<v Speaker 2>bring me the summer.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm horrified by the winter. Yeah, I'm cold in the summer.

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<v Speaker 4>That's how bad it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Cold this summer. Yeah, we got reptile blood.

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<v Speaker 3>I think I have.

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<v Speaker 2>How's things? How are you today?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm very well. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>About to go on tour. It starts on the twenty

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<v Speaker 4>seventh of September, so I'm preparing that deep in rehearsals.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you've been doing with most of your

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<v Speaker 2>time recently?

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<v Speaker 4>H Yeah, rehearsing and kind of buying all the things

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<v Speaker 4>that you sort of forget when you're on tour and

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<v Speaker 4>you're like, oh no, I don't have X.

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<v Speaker 3>So now I'm just trying to be as prepared as

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<v Speaker 3>I can.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it like going on holiday where you have to

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<v Speaker 2>go to wherever beforehand boots, run around the shops and

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<v Speaker 2>like be like I've got my long list of things.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, like how did I manage to spend seventy pounds.

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<v Speaker 3>In boots? Now? Is this even possible.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're like, at least to get the points on.

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<v Speaker 3>No, I don't. I don't do cards.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't you don't go for the loyalty cards.

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<v Speaker 4>No, I don't like them. I don't believe in them.

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<v Speaker 2>There's something a bit creepy about how it's basically their

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<v Speaker 2>way of just following your purchases.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and then yeah, I don't like that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's lovely to have you on the podcast. The last

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<v Speaker 2>time that you and I met was a few years

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<v Speaker 2>ago because we were both involved with the Mercury Prize

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<v Speaker 2>and we're invited to be judges on that, which, certainly

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<v Speaker 2>from my point of view, was a real real pleasure

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<v Speaker 2>to be involved with something that i'd followed for many years.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you find the experience of doing that, because

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<v Speaker 2>you've done the Mercury Prize judging things.

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<v Speaker 4>I've done it twice. Yeah, I think it's really interesting

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<v Speaker 4>how you know how to see on the other side,

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<v Speaker 4>because I've been nominated and judged it, and it's kind

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<v Speaker 4>of really kind of amazing how passionate people are about it.

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<v Speaker 4>But also it's really hard to listen to that many albums,

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<v Speaker 4>didn't you find I think.

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<v Speaker 2>The year that we did it, which was twenty fifteen.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was the year that we were both

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<v Speaker 2>doing it. It was something like two hundred and fifty albums. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>to get through. How long was it? Like? Three months?

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<v Speaker 2>Four months?

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<v Speaker 4>It didn't feel very long, no considering how many you

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<v Speaker 4>had to listen to.

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<v Speaker 2>When people ask me what the experience was like, I

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<v Speaker 2>said that it was really exciting because I never felt

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<v Speaker 2>like I was across more British and Irish music than

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<v Speaker 2>I did at that point. Because you get given this

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<v Speaker 2>vast amount of music, but equally did kind of take

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<v Speaker 2>over your life from it? What was your like coping

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<v Speaker 2>way of doing it? Because I was. I found that

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<v Speaker 2>to get through the list of albums that they give you,

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<v Speaker 2>I was like getting up in the morning, put my

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<v Speaker 2>headphones on, like make up my breakfast, definitely listening to

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<v Speaker 2>music on my way to work, maybe a bit in

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<v Speaker 2>my lunch break, and then definitely coming home in the evening.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'd worked out that I needed to get through

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<v Speaker 2>a certain amount of albums a day.

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<v Speaker 3>You were so organized.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I was just more scared not being able to.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm always like, I'm one of those people that plans

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<v Speaker 2>ahead to just in order just not to screw up.

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<v Speaker 4>I can't really remember how I did it, but I

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<v Speaker 4>do remember I would make notes on the ones that

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<v Speaker 4>I wanted to come back to because they had something interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>And I guess the thing that it really made me

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<v Speaker 4>think about is, I mean, how important the first song

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<v Speaker 4>is on a record, and that like you really have

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<v Speaker 4>to grab people with that first song, and not just

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<v Speaker 4>the song but the production of it. It's hard to

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<v Speaker 4>like be like, oh wow, this is interesting when it

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<v Speaker 4>just comes in with an acoustic guitar going gee g gee.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, it's like that's not putting your best foot forward.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I know exactly what you mean. You need

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<v Speaker 2>to grab the attention, don't you. Yeah, this is all

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<v Speaker 2>timely because the Mercury Prize happened last week and so

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<v Speaker 2>Wolf Allice won it this year. But the experience of well,

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<v Speaker 2>for people that aren't massively familiar for how it works.

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<v Speaker 2>You're given as a judge, you're given a list of

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<v Speaker 2>albums listen to. You have to get to them all

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<v Speaker 2>you submit I think it's around a dozen to then

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<v Speaker 2>be considered, and it's narrowed down to the shortlist, which

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<v Speaker 2>gets shared and then on the night the judges for

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<v Speaker 2>the award get into a room and they battle it

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<v Speaker 2>out and eventually come out with one name and it's

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<v Speaker 2>and so one away from the listening side of it,

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<v Speaker 2>how did you find the night of it when you

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<v Speaker 2>were in the room, like discussing the pros and cons

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<v Speaker 2>of albums as an artist? Did you find that useful?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you find it interesting hearing this mixture of musicians

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<v Speaker 2>and critics and broadcasters all kind of sharing their views

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<v Speaker 2>on things.

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<v Speaker 4>I think the tricky thing about it is it's not

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<v Speaker 4>really about your take. It's because they were as I

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<v Speaker 4>understand it, it's about does it reflect British music in

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<v Speaker 4>that year? And that's a funny one because that doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>It might reflect it, but that doesn't mean it's good.

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<v Speaker 2>It's sarand he reflected British music like two years ago

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<v Speaker 2>within got nomination.

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<v Speaker 4>But maybe in a way it's good that it's slightly

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<v Speaker 4>removed from you. It's good to develop the ability to

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<v Speaker 4>listen to music and think this isn't for me, but

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<v Speaker 4>I can see the value in it. And that's what

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<v Speaker 4>you really had to do. Doing the Mercurys is like,

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<v Speaker 4>even if it's not for you, you can still see

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<v Speaker 4>that it reflects something important that's happening. But at the

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<v Speaker 4>beginning I found that a bit tricky to separate how

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<v Speaker 4>I really felt when.

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<v Speaker 2>I first did it as well, it felt like there

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<v Speaker 2>were a lot of wise and experienced voices in that

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<v Speaker 2>room debating these things. He'd done this thing before, and

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<v Speaker 2>I walked in and absolutely no idea what to say.

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of knew what I wanted to say, but

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have the confidence to sort of share my opinions

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff. But you grow into it. I think, you know, what,

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<v Speaker 2>if you get nominated for the Mercury Prize again, will

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<v Speaker 2>you be thinking knowing that these sort of conversations happen

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<v Speaker 2>about your music? You know exactly what the process was.

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<v Speaker 2>Now been on the other side of the fence and

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<v Speaker 2>experienced that and heard people analyze and deconstruct music to

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<v Speaker 2>the ends. Degree would that be? How would you feel

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<v Speaker 2>about that?

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<v Speaker 4>It makes you realize what an amazing thing is to

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<v Speaker 4>just get on that nominated list, and how many albums

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<v Speaker 4>they will have to listen to to come to the

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<v Speaker 4>conclusion that yours was worth being on that list. I

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<v Speaker 4>think that's the main thing, because I think the last bit,

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<v Speaker 4>like I said about you know, does it reflect British music.

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<v Speaker 4>That's not really about whether your record is good or not,

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<v Speaker 4>but there is that difficult moment where it goes from

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<v Speaker 4>people talking about everything they like about it and then

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<v Speaker 4>it's about the power of deduction of like you know

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<v Speaker 4>where with the holes and each album. That's the bit

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<v Speaker 4>that I I definitely wouldn't want to be in a

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<v Speaker 4>fly on the wall if they did that with my record.

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<v Speaker 2>They're very encouraging to be positive and talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>spend time talking about all of the positives around each release,

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<v Speaker 2>but then there has to come that moment where it's like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>now we've got to talk about the merits of this

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<v Speaker 2>album versus this album, and then those conversations creeping and

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<v Speaker 2>then people, you know, people's voices get slightly loud. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a few bits of like table banging and all that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>It was all very civilized, though I wanted there to

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<v Speaker 4>be some kind of fight someone walked out and discussed.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I wonder if that's ever happened.

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<v Speaker 3>Ye.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the year that we were on it was quite

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<v Speaker 2>very civilized. Nobody had anybody else up against the wall

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<v Speaker 2>being to win. So you released Hunter, your third album

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<v Speaker 2>a few weeks ago. Now, how did it feel to

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<v Speaker 2>share that album with everybody? And how have you felt

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<v Speaker 2>about the reaction to the record.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I've been really happy with how it's been received.

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<v Speaker 4>I think because the record is very much about specific

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<v Speaker 4>themes and things that I'm really passionate about. My marker

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<v Speaker 4>of success is have I translated that to the listener,

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<v Speaker 4>whether you like it or not. It's not so much

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<v Speaker 4>the point as and you know, do people understand what

0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.480
<v Speaker 4>I'm trying to do? And for the most part, I

0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.640
<v Speaker 4>felt that in terms of reviews and stuff, that people

0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.959
<v Speaker 4>have understood what I was trying to do. And then

0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.800
<v Speaker 4>from a more personal point of view, it seems that

0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.640
<v Speaker 4>people who follow me have been really loving it, and

0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:38.080
<v Speaker 4>that just really feels wonderful and really warms my heart.

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.040
<v Speaker 4>When you care about something so much, it means so

0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:44.400
<v Speaker 4>much when people respond to it.

0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.839
<v Speaker 2>I want to get into talking about the themes that

0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.320
<v Speaker 2>you discuss on Hunter, surely, but for people who know

0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.400
<v Speaker 2>your name perhaps and know some of your music, but

0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.000
<v Speaker 2>maybe don't know that much of your story, tell me

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.360
<v Speaker 2>about your kind of like your first introductions and kind

0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.640
<v Speaker 2>of foragers into music, where you found your first kind

0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.600
<v Speaker 2>of loves was that at home? You know, was music

0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.240
<v Speaker 2>introduced to you by your parents? Like where did that

0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.720
<v Speaker 2>that love of music and then going on to perform music?

0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Where did they all kind of foster?

0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:13.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:15.000
<v Speaker 4>I guess there was always a lot of music in

0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:20.040
<v Speaker 4>my in my house and my parents were you know,

0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.120
<v Speaker 4>hippies in the sixties, so they they had all these

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:27.920
<v Speaker 4>kind of great record were a massive record collection, which

0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:32.360
<v Speaker 4>I devoured when I was a teenager, and I'd been

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.360
<v Speaker 4>playing the violin since I was six. When I was eight,

0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.120
<v Speaker 4>I saw Jimi Hendrix play. There was a video of

0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.120
<v Speaker 4>Woodstock and that just after that, I.

0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Was like, was that like a VHS or something?

0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:46.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I was like, forget about the violin, you know,

0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:54.400
<v Speaker 4>I want to play the guitar. And my dad played guitar.

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.240
<v Speaker 4>He played kind of rock and roll stuff on the guitar,

0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.160
<v Speaker 4>and I got him to teach me some stuff and

0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:03.200
<v Speaker 4>then I started, you know, trying to write songs. I

0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 4>think I wrote my first song when I was twelve,

0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:11.920
<v Speaker 4>called Isolation, which is slightly worrying. And I came to

0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.440
<v Speaker 4>singing very late. I was really into the guitar and

0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.520
<v Speaker 4>that was my thing. But I loved the idea of

0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:19.880
<v Speaker 4>being able to be so liberated and free that you

0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.720
<v Speaker 4>could go to sing. And it was a long journey

0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.000
<v Speaker 4>for me to become a singer because I'm shy and

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.320
<v Speaker 4>my voice is very quiet. But I gradually kind of

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.160
<v Speaker 4>chipped away at this voice and I just really put

0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.720
<v Speaker 4>hours and hours and hours listening to singers I loved,

0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.960
<v Speaker 4>like Scott Walker or Elvis or Edith Path, and gradually

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 4>this kind of voice grew and to what it is now.

0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 4>But it started, you know, as a little waif you know,

0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.200
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it was like my speaking voice, and now

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 4>it's become this animal.

0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.640
<v Speaker 2>It's a nice way of describing it. What about the

0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.680
<v Speaker 2>lyrical side of things. It's one thing on that journey

0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.160
<v Speaker 2>to discover that you can share your voice, but it's

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 2>another one to develop your personality and try and articulate

0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:11.280
<v Speaker 2>feelings in your lyrics. So did that come in tandem

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 2>or did they move at different speeds at different times?

0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.320
<v Speaker 4>I think lyrics I always felt less confident about, and

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:19.800
<v Speaker 4>I feel I made a bit of a breakthrough with

0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.720
<v Speaker 4>this record in finding a way of being It's trying

0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.520
<v Speaker 4>to find a balance between being mysterious and direct and

0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.520
<v Speaker 4>if you go too far on either way, you kind

0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.200
<v Speaker 4>of lose the power. And I feel like this time

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 4>was the first time I really feel that I've found

0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 4>a way through this balance.

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:42.480
<v Speaker 2>How do you think you found that breakthrough? Is that

0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:44.400
<v Speaker 2>just a bit more experience.

0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:45.800
<v Speaker 3>I think it's experienced.

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And also think I had a lot to say

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.800
<v Speaker 4>on this record, and that really helps. I knew what

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.280
<v Speaker 4>I wanted to say. I knew that I wanted it

0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 4>to be clear enough that if you wanted to listen

0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 4>to the lyrics, you could find where I'm coming from.

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.120
<v Speaker 4>But I wanted the music to be strong enough that

0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.160
<v Speaker 4>you don't have to listen to the lyrics to be

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 4>able to understand the emotion of the song.

0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 2>And before we talk a little bit about that, with

0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>the influence of your parents on your music taste, was

0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.960
<v Speaker 2>your dad in any eight bands? Did he get to

0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:16.880
<v Speaker 2>go and watch him play?

0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.480
<v Speaker 4>No, I mean he was in a band when he

0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:21.920
<v Speaker 4>was like twenty or something.

0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.240
<v Speaker 2>Did any evidence of that still exist?

0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:26.920
<v Speaker 4>Oh, that would be so amazing if it did, but

0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.400
<v Speaker 4>I don't think so. But he looked very cool. I

0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.440
<v Speaker 4>mean he used to wear a cloak. Oh yeah, he

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:33.840
<v Speaker 4>was a pretty outBut frog.

0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:38.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what was it like more traditional like rock and

0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.600
<v Speaker 2>roll stuff or what kind of thing did he play?

0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he liked kind of Chuck Berry and he was

0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:48.000
<v Speaker 4>in to the Beatles and Captain Beefheart and I guess,

0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 4>you know, like classic sixties stuff.

0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Would your moment this similar kind of thing or was

0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:53.680
<v Speaker 2>he mean something different?

0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:54.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.080
<v Speaker 4>I mean they were both a bit you know, a

0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 4>bit mental.

0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.360
<v Speaker 2>I like to think forward thinking the stuff that you

0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:02.040
<v Speaker 2>were discovering.

0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:02.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:06.000
<v Speaker 4>I mean there's always this thing of my mum going

0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.520
<v Speaker 4>on about how much acid they drop to my dad

0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.000
<v Speaker 4>trying to stop her telling us.

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.800
<v Speaker 2>What were they like? Were they always quite encouraging to you,

0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:17.920
<v Speaker 2>like as a young person when it came to music

0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.879
<v Speaker 2>discovery and just like social experience and stuff. Were they

0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:21.920
<v Speaker 2>open minded?

0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:23.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? They were very.

0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.960
<v Speaker 4>You know, they weren't strict at all. And I mean

0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.840
<v Speaker 4>my dad did a lot for me, you know, like

0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.000
<v Speaker 4>he would take me to rehearsals when I was sixteen

0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.840
<v Speaker 4>in my first band, and we'd go to guitar shops together,

0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:39.920
<v Speaker 4>and I mean I really kind of owe a lot

0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.119
<v Speaker 4>to him, really, and on my first record actually dedicated

0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.120
<v Speaker 4>it to him, because, yeah, I don't think I would

0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.720
<v Speaker 4>be a musician if it wasn't for him.

0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Not that I'm a successful musician like yourself, but I

0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.400
<v Speaker 2>still have fond memories and going to my first band

0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.040
<v Speaker 2>practices when I was a teenager and the parents of

0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.200
<v Speaker 2>the you know, people that was in a band with

0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.199
<v Speaker 2>at the time, you just think of them as like,

0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.440
<v Speaker 2>come on, dad or mum, like you just like you

0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:05.919
<v Speaker 2>just help me out, like we need to get this

0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.760
<v Speaker 2>pa system into the back of that forward focus. But

0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.840
<v Speaker 2>now you just think, wow, like it's actually I feel

0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.120
<v Speaker 2>very kind of grateful for them just being there doing

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.119
<v Speaker 2>that and encouraging it, and probably not I don't know

0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.399
<v Speaker 2>what there was genuinely going through their mind when they

0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 2>came to watch us play gigs, whether they were.

0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:25.000
<v Speaker 3>What kind of band were you in?

0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 2>They were kind of went through different stages, to be honest,

0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.720
<v Speaker 2>I was always in band with my brother and so

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.720
<v Speaker 2>my music tastes would kind of mirror his as we went.

0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.919
<v Speaker 2>His first band, he'll hate me if he's listening to this,

0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.080
<v Speaker 2>But the world needs to know. This was a status

0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:45.960
<v Speaker 2>quo covers band called one hundred percent and their first

0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.760
<v Speaker 2>gig was playing outside of shopping center in Hereford and

0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 2>we went there and it was a Saturday afternoon and

0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.200
<v Speaker 2>they just had played status quo covers for about an hour.

0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.919
<v Speaker 2>There is video footage of that that exists, but I

0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.359
<v Speaker 2>didn't manage to share that is wedding unfortunately, to recover

0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.960
<v Speaker 2>it to share other people. But from then on it

0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:09.439
<v Speaker 2>was like he went a bit brip pop. So he

0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.359
<v Speaker 2>did love like Oasis bands like that. He would write

0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.720
<v Speaker 2>the songs. I would write the lyrics and he would sing.

0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.359
<v Speaker 2>Looking back, my lyrics were very strange and I was

0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.639
<v Speaker 2>trying to be very clever, but it was really a

0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:22.919
<v Speaker 2>thirteen or fourteen year old trying to be really smart

0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.280
<v Speaker 2>with my lyrics. I wrote a song called prune Juice

0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:32.399
<v Speaker 2>once that was the big hit. And yeah, we went on.

0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:34.800
<v Speaker 2>I guess things evolved and they went through a stage

0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:39.800
<v Speaker 2>of sounding a bit like the Redheart Chili Peppers, and

0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:41.359
<v Speaker 2>then there was like a grunge thing. There was a

0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.640
<v Speaker 2>big So this is like the late nineties going into

0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.760
<v Speaker 2>the early two thousands. Then like new metal came along,

0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't it. That was strange. We did sound a little

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:52.879
<v Speaker 2>bit new metal for a while. I feel like, actually

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:54.919
<v Speaker 2>talking about it now makes it sound like we kind

0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.240
<v Speaker 2>of chased whatever the popular sound was at the time

0:19:57.280 --> 0:19:59.920
<v Speaker 2>and that was a really bad idea. We don't make

0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:01.960
<v Speaker 2>music together anymore, but I do think I wonder what

0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.920
<v Speaker 2>if we got together in a room now, what it

0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:05.960
<v Speaker 2>would actually sound.

0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:07.520
<v Speaker 3>Like, hmmm sharing?

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Probably, yeah, exactly. I'm going to go and make a

0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 2>new George Esra album with my brother next week. Probably, yeah.

0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.480
<v Speaker 2>But those formative experiences I've still got really fond memories,

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.520
<v Speaker 2>even though I would feel very embarrassed of kind of

0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.399
<v Speaker 2>like sticking the cassette on or in whatever form it

0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.439
<v Speaker 2>exists now, listening back to it. But yeah, definitely, the

0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.080
<v Speaker 2>parental support is something that I was kind of very

0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.720
<v Speaker 2>fond of. You went on to study music, didn't you,

0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:36.040
<v Speaker 2>at university, and then after that you taught guitar for

0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.800
<v Speaker 2>quite a long time. What was that experience like? Did

0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.840
<v Speaker 2>you enjoy the experience of kind of mentoring people through

0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.800
<v Speaker 2>different stages of their aptitude for guitar.

0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.960
<v Speaker 4>I generally only like doing stuff I'm good at, which

0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.119
<v Speaker 4>maybe is bad. But I didn't really feel I was

0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:55.560
<v Speaker 4>a very good guitar teacher because the way that I

0:20:55.680 --> 0:21:00.760
<v Speaker 4>learned the guitar was by ear and by writing my

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.800
<v Speaker 4>own stuff, and I never had a teacher, and so

0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.160
<v Speaker 4>then it was quite hard to then try and teach

0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.320
<v Speaker 4>what was not taught to me. And I did have

0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.320
<v Speaker 4>some pupils that I was fond of and I you know,

0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:18.160
<v Speaker 4>would like to see them, but in general, I am yeah,

0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.960
<v Speaker 4>I didn't feel that I was the best teacher in

0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:21.399
<v Speaker 4>the world.

0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:24.879
<v Speaker 2>Did you enjoy seeing the process of people get better

0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.080
<v Speaker 2>and learn though? Was that the most rewarding thing about that? Also?

0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean some of them didn't be fair. I mean,

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.000
<v Speaker 4>I think I think the nicest thing about it was

0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:40.000
<v Speaker 4>like being able to be encouraging to someone and help

0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.080
<v Speaker 4>their confidence, whether or not they got better or not.

0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.560
<v Speaker 4>I just I just felt it was so important to

0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.040
<v Speaker 4>like give praise when it was due and make someone

0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.040
<v Speaker 4>feel good about themselves, especially because you know, I guess

0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.080
<v Speaker 4>a lot of them were kids or teenagers when you

0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.840
<v Speaker 4>really need that. And I remember, you know, you know

0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.600
<v Speaker 4>how how important heats can be when you're young in

0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.360
<v Speaker 4>terms of like, you know, you look up to them,

0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.160
<v Speaker 4>and you know want want them to think you're good

0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:09.760
<v Speaker 4>at what you do. I don't know, maybe they all

0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.639
<v Speaker 4>hate me, but if you know, if I could have

0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.280
<v Speaker 4>been that for some of them, then you know, it

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.760
<v Speaker 4>felt like a worthwhile thing to do. But I don't

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:20.600
<v Speaker 4>think I could do it again.

0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 2>How did that step between doing that, was that, like

0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:25.680
<v Speaker 2>the main job you're doing for a number of years,

0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:28.920
<v Speaker 2>we're doing different things at the same time, Or yeah.

0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.919
<v Speaker 4>I did a bit of session work as a guitarist

0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:31.880
<v Speaker 4>and just teaching.

0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:32.960
<v Speaker 3>I did that for a while.

0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.720
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about Hunter. Then. It's an album that you

0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:41.400
<v Speaker 2>described as a utopian vision. What do you mean by

0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.720
<v Speaker 2>that and how does it paint a utopian vision?

0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.240
<v Speaker 4>I guess for me, the record is about trying to

0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:51.520
<v Speaker 4>find a place where you're not being defined by your

0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:54.600
<v Speaker 4>gender or what's being expected of you because of the

0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:58.080
<v Speaker 4>gender that you are, and just finding a real freedom

0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.120
<v Speaker 4>and liberation in that. I guess that's what I mean

0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:07.680
<v Speaker 4>by kind of utopian. Specifically for me, exploring the idea

0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.360
<v Speaker 4>of a woman who was a hunter, who goes into

0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:13.640
<v Speaker 4>the world and sees it as hers and takes what

0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.960
<v Speaker 4>she wants from it and explores her pleasure without any

0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:20.879
<v Speaker 4>sense of shame. This felt really important for me to

0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:23.720
<v Speaker 4>kind of explore this because I'm so tired of seeing

0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:26.879
<v Speaker 4>women being depicted as being hunted by men in the

0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:30.320
<v Speaker 4>media and in films, and I just wanted to give

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:36.480
<v Speaker 4>a more I guess multifested viewpoint of what a woman is,

0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 4>because if I compare what the women are like in

0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:43.879
<v Speaker 4>my life compared with how women are depicted in our society,

0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:48.800
<v Speaker 4>there's such a disconnect between the reality, and I think

0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:53.200
<v Speaker 4>it's to the disservice of everyone and also for men too,

0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 4>that these very small window of you know, what a

0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:01.320
<v Speaker 4>man is meant to be, and how limiting that is

0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:02.600
<v Speaker 4>for men as well.

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:06.760
<v Speaker 2>When we talk about we already discussed your parents, for example,

0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:08.760
<v Speaker 2>who sound quite kind of progressive in the way that

0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:13.600
<v Speaker 2>they know, you know, their views on things. But so

0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:15.920
<v Speaker 2>much has changed when I think of like my parents

0:24:15.960 --> 0:24:19.560
<v Speaker 2>and me now and then the generation below that there

0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:23.920
<v Speaker 2>is this evolution in attitude towards gender. Do you see

0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:29.920
<v Speaker 2>any encoaging science that that is happening in any mediums? TV? Film? Example?

0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:34.280
<v Speaker 4>I have to say not really in politics or in

0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:42.119
<v Speaker 4>TV or film. It's so male centric and even the

0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:47.679
<v Speaker 4>idea of what constitutes are strong in politics. I mean, really,

0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:52.439
<v Speaker 4>I think you know, a successful politician would be about

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:56.399
<v Speaker 4>someone who's good at communicating, not about someone who's so

0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.120
<v Speaker 4>arrogant that they only have their view and they don't

0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.320
<v Speaker 4>want to do anything else. Maybe that kind of idea

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.760
<v Speaker 4>was useful when we were cave people, but you know,

0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:10.040
<v Speaker 4>now we live in a world where communication is how

0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.879
<v Speaker 4>you solve problems. It's about being able to listen. I

0:25:13.920 --> 0:25:17.080
<v Speaker 4>think the one thing that feels positive is it feels

0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:21.000
<v Speaker 4>that young people are more aware of not wanting to

0:25:21.040 --> 0:25:24.280
<v Speaker 4>be pigeonholed and in one you know that a man

0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:26.080
<v Speaker 4>has to be this and a woman has to be this,

0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:30.199
<v Speaker 4>and that feels really positive. And I guess just you

0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:31.800
<v Speaker 4>know that there are a lot of young people, say

0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:36.080
<v Speaker 4>who don't want to define themselves as straight, or they

0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:40.399
<v Speaker 4>realize that the spectrum of human experience isn't something that

0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:42.160
<v Speaker 4>you can necessarily put in boxes.

0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:47.119
<v Speaker 2>When you were thinking about this almost that kind of

0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.960
<v Speaker 2>overarching theme of the album, are these like thoughts that

0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:52.560
<v Speaker 2>you'd had for a long time and were trying to

0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:54.800
<v Speaker 2>find a way to articulate, Or was it or did

0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:56.920
<v Speaker 2>it come to you in the sort of early genesis

0:25:56.960 --> 0:25:58.879
<v Speaker 2>of the album to them want to do it together?

0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:01.439
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think its thoughts that I've had for a

0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:05.800
<v Speaker 4>long time because I'm very aware of you know, I'm

0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:11.000
<v Speaker 4>very passionately feminist in my belief and also the belief

0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:16.600
<v Speaker 4>that feminism benefits men and women. It just made sense

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 4>that this would come out in my music and that

0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:21.840
<v Speaker 4>it would come out in my lyrics. And when I

0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:24.720
<v Speaker 4>had noticed that I was singing about these things, I felt,

0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:27.879
<v Speaker 4>you know, that this really was the right track to

0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:30.400
<v Speaker 4>go down, and I felt excited to explore it.

0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:34.680
<v Speaker 2>That whole question of kind of nature versus nurture. When

0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:36.960
<v Speaker 2>we talk about the construct of gender and what people

0:26:38.040 --> 0:26:40.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, this becomes this imposed thing of what people

0:26:40.600 --> 0:26:43.399
<v Speaker 2>understand goes along with those things we had. We did

0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:46.840
<v Speaker 2>a podcast, one of these podcasts recently with Gaz Combs.

0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:49.280
<v Speaker 2>He was very much talking about how his album was

0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:54.120
<v Speaker 2>a meditation on how he wanted to challenge himself as

0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:57.920
<v Speaker 2>a man and how he that stretch across generations because

0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:01.320
<v Speaker 2>he has children now he's a father to daughters, but

0:27:01.359 --> 0:27:03.840
<v Speaker 2>then also thinking about his parents and the way that

0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.399
<v Speaker 2>they kind of encourage him to do different things. And

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:08.800
<v Speaker 2>he was talking about the language that gets used around

0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:13.680
<v Speaker 2>these constructs, around men and around women. But in his experience,

0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:17.280
<v Speaker 2>those phrases that get you hear people say obviously of

0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:20.320
<v Speaker 2>that man up and like don't cry and kind of

0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:21.920
<v Speaker 2>like be a man, and all those really kind of

0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:27.480
<v Speaker 2>quite dangerous things that have just become very normalized. Almost.

0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:29.439
<v Speaker 2>Do you get frustrated by a lot of the kind

0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:32.159
<v Speaker 2>of language in the way that things just get assumed

0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:34.520
<v Speaker 2>and you know, you only have to walk outside to

0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:35.639
<v Speaker 2>hear that kind of thing, don't you.

0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:42.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean, there is such a fear of the

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:47.919
<v Speaker 4>women in society to the point where the idea of

0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:54.320
<v Speaker 4>a man expressing feminine traits and feminine has become synonymous

0:27:54.359 --> 0:28:00.360
<v Speaker 4>with weakness, even though I mean, I obviously I don't

0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:03.600
<v Speaker 4>believe that that's the essence of what a woman is.

0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:08.280
<v Speaker 4>That almost the ultimate insult for a man is that

0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:12.639
<v Speaker 4>he has become weak like a woman. The idea of

0:28:12.760 --> 0:28:17.280
<v Speaker 4>man up is is is very offensive to men and women,

0:28:17.320 --> 0:28:22.280
<v Speaker 4>I think, and I do. I do think that language

0:28:22.400 --> 0:28:28.879
<v Speaker 4>has really really sends us really powerful messages unconsciously, and

0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:32.119
<v Speaker 4>I always feel very very aware of that, you know,

0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:36.960
<v Speaker 4>the gender of language from a female perspective, even things

0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:40.440
<v Speaker 4>like the way that when we talk about women talking

0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:43.360
<v Speaker 4>to each other, you know, we use the word gossip,

0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:46.040
<v Speaker 4>which is kind of limiting what they have to say,

0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:50.760
<v Speaker 4>whereas you know, women communicating with each other is is

0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:53.720
<v Speaker 4>you know, so much more than that, you know, Yeah,

0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:57.360
<v Speaker 4>there's there's lots of ways in which, you know, language

0:28:57.400 --> 0:29:00.440
<v Speaker 4>kind of plays a part unconsciously in how we see us.

0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Where do you think it starts and what examples particularly

0:29:05.640 --> 0:29:10.000
<v Speaker 2>catch your attention? For example, from the moment that a child,

0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:12.280
<v Speaker 2>the news of a child is going to arrive. Is

0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:16.520
<v Speaker 2>like when a friends and family who've deliberately not shared

0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:21.040
<v Speaker 2>the gender of their forthcoming child because they don't want

0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:25.480
<v Speaker 2>people to go out and rush out and buy princess

0:29:25.560 --> 0:29:27.920
<v Speaker 2>and pink outfits if it's going to be a door

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:31.360
<v Speaker 2>or fireman's outfit and all those kind of old fashioned

0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of understandings of gender. You know they've deliberately done

0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:35.960
<v Speaker 2>that because they don't want to impose that on children.

0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:38.800
<v Speaker 2>And so it starts. It goes straight from there, doesn't it.

0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:41.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Well, I guess you know, as a child, you're

0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:45.640
<v Speaker 4>you're constantly learning who you are and what society is

0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:48.520
<v Speaker 4>and how you need to behave and react to the

0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.760
<v Speaker 4>society that you're born into. And so I suppose as

0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:55.880
<v Speaker 4>soon as you're born, you're you're learning cues from everything

0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:59.240
<v Speaker 4>around you. I think you know, even without meaning to,

0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 4>it's very easy to kind of talk differently to kids

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:07.840
<v Speaker 4>of different genders. I mean even like you know, saying oh,

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.480
<v Speaker 4>you know, my little man, it's like you wouldn't say oh,

0:30:11.520 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 4>my little woman to a baby girl. And there's this

0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:18.760
<v Speaker 4>idea that even when a little boy is tiny, it's

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:22.520
<v Speaker 4>like he has to kind of exhibit traits of strength

0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:25.040
<v Speaker 4>that he's going to grow into a man, you know.

0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:30.680
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, it's a tricky one because I guess it's

0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:33.920
<v Speaker 4>a very slow wave of change and it's not going

0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:37.200
<v Speaker 4>to happen overnight. But I think at least an awareness

0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:41.600
<v Speaker 4>of this stuff is important, I guess for parents, and

0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:44.280
<v Speaker 4>I think it is happening. I think there are definitely

0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:48.400
<v Speaker 4>more parents thinking about not wanting to put pressures on

0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:51.360
<v Speaker 4>boys or girls to be a certain way.

0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Do you think art art, in its many different forms,

0:30:55.320 --> 0:31:00.320
<v Speaker 2>whether that's literature and music, dad's theater, film, does it

0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:04.160
<v Speaker 2>help people communicate the way they feel about this kind

0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 2>of stuff? So do you think that art can be

0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:08.120
<v Speaker 2>a useful thing? Like if you make an album like Hunter,

0:31:08.320 --> 0:31:11.440
<v Speaker 2>somebody can go I identify with it. It's really helped me

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:13.720
<v Speaker 2>understand my own thought process and then I can go

0:31:13.760 --> 0:31:16.840
<v Speaker 2>out and have those conversations with friends or family or whatever.

0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:18.880
<v Speaker 2>That is that a hope for you or do you

0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:21.080
<v Speaker 2>think do you think art it can be a useful

0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:22.280
<v Speaker 2>conduit for that kind of thing.

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:25.440
<v Speaker 4>I think it more than anything. It holds up a

0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:29.320
<v Speaker 4>mirror to the culture that we're in, and you need

0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:31.840
<v Speaker 4>to have some distance to be able to understand and

0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:37.280
<v Speaker 4>assess what something is. And I think the mirror provides

0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:42.760
<v Speaker 4>distance so we can look at where we are and

0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:44.280
<v Speaker 4>and decide is that what we want?

0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:45.120
<v Speaker 3>Is that?

0:31:45.360 --> 0:31:47.760
<v Speaker 4>Is that all life is meant to be? And maybe

0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:50.920
<v Speaker 4>there could be more. I think that's the point of

0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:54.959
<v Speaker 4>art really in some ways for me, For this record,

0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:58.720
<v Speaker 4>I wanted to be galvanizing, you know, I wanted it

0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:02.800
<v Speaker 4>doesn't have to be. I didn't particularly want an intellectual response.

0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:06.560
<v Speaker 4>I wanted an emotional viscoal response and a listener that

0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:11.280
<v Speaker 4>just makes you. You know, when music makes you want

0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:13.400
<v Speaker 4>to just be a bit different in your life, like

0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:16.600
<v Speaker 4>it just wakes you up for a minute. That's the

0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:22.120
<v Speaker 4>most powerful tool of music. And obviously that would be

0:32:22.160 --> 0:32:26.000
<v Speaker 4>the dream that that could this record could do that

0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:28.800
<v Speaker 4>for someone. That would be my ultimate feeling of it.

0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:30.760
<v Speaker 4>You know, I'd made something worthwhile.

0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:34.360
<v Speaker 2>I really like the powerful visuals that you've created to

0:32:34.400 --> 0:32:36.240
<v Speaker 2>go along with the music they've released so far from

0:32:36.240 --> 0:32:39.320
<v Speaker 2>the album the video of a Hunter, which you collaborated

0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:42.560
<v Speaker 2>with Matthew Lambert, Is that right? Just explain somebody if

0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:44.920
<v Speaker 2>they've not seen the video for that song what you

0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:47.000
<v Speaker 2>and Matthew set out and wanted to achieve with the

0:32:47.080 --> 0:32:48.040
<v Speaker 2>visuals that you made for that.

0:32:48.680 --> 0:32:52.600
<v Speaker 4>We were just really interested in exploring how queer people

0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:56.560
<v Speaker 4>explore their bodies and their own sense of pleasure, because,

0:32:57.600 --> 0:32:59.760
<v Speaker 4>I mean, some of my record deals with this idea

0:32:59.760 --> 0:33:02.680
<v Speaker 4>that when you're queer, you're not allowed to just simply

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.160
<v Speaker 4>be in love. You have to keep asking yourself questions

0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:07.760
<v Speaker 4>about identity and what are other people going to think?

0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:11.080
<v Speaker 4>And all these things that've got nothing to do with you.

0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:13.960
<v Speaker 4>That's the baggage of society that hasn't caught up with

0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:20.440
<v Speaker 4>you know something more. Yeah, So we were talking about

0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:25.160
<v Speaker 4>how powerful at this moment is when you are without

0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:29.200
<v Speaker 4>shame exploring your pleasure, you know, as a queer person.

0:33:29.880 --> 0:33:31.520
<v Speaker 4>You know, we really wanted to show that in this

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:35.080
<v Speaker 4>in this film. I felt I was really moved by

0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:38.680
<v Speaker 4>this video. I mean, I found it so powerful, this

0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:43.000
<v Speaker 4>kind of health, the sense of freedom that you feel

0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:46.280
<v Speaker 4>on these two people when they're exploring themselves, and also

0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:50.240
<v Speaker 4>how strange it is that maybe it's from Biblical times,

0:33:50.280 --> 0:33:54.320
<v Speaker 4>this idea of pleasure being a sin, and how it's

0:33:54.360 --> 0:33:59.160
<v Speaker 4>still in our subconscious that to explore our bodies and

0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 4>to pleasure ourselves is somehow shameful, and here are these

0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:08.239
<v Speaker 4>people doing it in the most transcendent, beautiful way, and

0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:10.200
<v Speaker 4>I feel like it's a really important message.

0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:13.240
<v Speaker 2>On the music side of this. Putting the record together,

0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:17.439
<v Speaker 2>you recorded in London. You had Adrian Utley from Porter

0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Said came and collaborated with you, and you also had

0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Martin Casey from The Bad Seeds. What was the experience

0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:26.920
<v Speaker 2>of bringing those musicians into the fold for the recording

0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:27.359
<v Speaker 2>part of.

0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:30.560
<v Speaker 4>This, Like I mean, I also had Maley Harpas and

0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:33.600
<v Speaker 4>Alex Thomas, who my band that I tour with, they've

0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:37.640
<v Speaker 4>played on the record too, but having Adrian Utley and Marty,

0:34:38.640 --> 0:34:42.760
<v Speaker 4>I guess with Adrian, I was really interested in trying

0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:46.920
<v Speaker 4>to create kind of soundscapes and orchestral sounds, but not

0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:50.720
<v Speaker 4>using orchestral instruments. And he has such an amazing knowledge

0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:53.560
<v Speaker 4>of all the possible sense that you could ever use,

0:34:53.600 --> 0:34:57.399
<v Speaker 4>and the way that he plays them is like he's

0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 4>playing a cello or something. It's very very unique to

0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:06.080
<v Speaker 4>him and with Marty, I guess, you know, I've always

0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:08.960
<v Speaker 4>been such a fan of the sound that the Bad

0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:13.719
<v Speaker 4>Seed to make and this kind of wild abandon that

0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:18.880
<v Speaker 4>they have, and it was my producer, Nick Lorney's suggestion

0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:20.719
<v Speaker 4>to have him board, and you know, I think he

0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:25.239
<v Speaker 4>really came up with some incredible you know, basslines, and

0:35:25.440 --> 0:35:29.400
<v Speaker 4>you know, he really added something to the record.

0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:31.640
<v Speaker 2>Do you remember the first time that you saw The

0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:32.600
<v Speaker 2>Bad Seeds perform.

0:35:33.400 --> 0:35:36.480
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think it was around two thousand and seven,

0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 4>and it was when I was actually writing my first record,

0:35:40.640 --> 0:35:43.080
<v Speaker 4>and I was just so blown away. And I was

0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:47.759
<v Speaker 4>lucky enough to support Nick Kay's other band, Grinderman. That

0:35:47.840 --> 0:35:50.560
<v Speaker 4>was the first tour I ever did was to support Grinderman,

0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:53.799
<v Speaker 4>and that was like a crash course in how to

0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:55.920
<v Speaker 4>be in a band. I mean, they're just so awesome,

0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:59.760
<v Speaker 4>you know, on stage, off stage, you know, so charismatic,

0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:02.080
<v Speaker 4>just so bad at us.

0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:02.400
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:03.920
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that I wanted to talk to

0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:06.120
<v Speaker 2>you about was a topic of conversation that came up

0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:09.319
<v Speaker 2>when we recorded this podcast with Nadine Shah quite a

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.800
<v Speaker 2>while ago now, but she was talking about the representations

0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:17.400
<v Speaker 2>of the voices of older women in music on festival bills,

0:36:18.000 --> 0:36:20.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, on TV, on opportunities that come along with

0:36:20.480 --> 0:36:23.200
<v Speaker 2>being a musician. When you stop and think and say,

0:36:23.680 --> 0:36:25.920
<v Speaker 2>who are the slightly older female artists that get the

0:36:25.960 --> 0:36:30.319
<v Speaker 2>opportunity the same platforms as older male artists, you can't

0:36:30.320 --> 0:36:33.279
<v Speaker 2>think of that many. It feels like it's it's much

0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:35.080
<v Speaker 2>more difficult for them to be heard and to be

0:36:35.120 --> 0:36:37.920
<v Speaker 2>seen and you know, to share their work. Do you

0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:40.439
<v Speaker 2>think there's truth in that? Because it's when you stop

0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:43.520
<v Speaker 2>and thinking, go, where's why aren't our festival bills full

0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:46.600
<v Speaker 2>of Patti Smith's, Well, they're full of lots of other old,

0:36:46.800 --> 0:36:48.960
<v Speaker 2>older male artists. Seems that that seems to be a

0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:52.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, passed off as nostalgia and that's totally fine.

0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Whereas it's like, well, yeah, where are yeah, the voices

0:36:57.160 --> 0:36:59.640
<v Speaker 2>of slightly older female artists. I think that's the truth

0:36:59.680 --> 0:36:59.920
<v Speaker 2>in that.

0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:03.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think, you know, where are the older women

0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:07.080
<v Speaker 4>in all parts of cultural life?

0:37:07.600 --> 0:37:07.799
<v Speaker 3>You know?

0:37:07.880 --> 0:37:11.359
<v Speaker 4>Which is so I mean, when you get older, as

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<v Speaker 4>it is for a lot of men, you know, they

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<v Speaker 4>become more confident, they've had life experience, they have more

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<v Speaker 4>to say, and we respect these men because they have

0:37:20.400 --> 0:37:23.600
<v Speaker 4>this experience, and yet women if they're not you know,

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<v Speaker 4>hot young things, and you know, they don't get the

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<v Speaker 4>opportunity to be on TV or because so much emphasis

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<v Speaker 4>on a woman's worth is put on her body. Once

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<v Speaker 4>her body gets old, she's presented as not giving anything

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<v Speaker 4>left to society. And I think it's represented in always,

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<v Speaker 4>including in the arts, and it frustrates me so much

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<v Speaker 4>because just as men, young men need male role models,

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<v Speaker 4>young women need to see older women. It's it's really important.

0:38:17.640 --> 0:38:20.879
<v Speaker 1>Midnight Chats is a Loud and Quiet podcast production by

0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:25.280
<v Speaker 1>Emma Snook Music courtesy of gold Panda. Search Midnight Chats

0:38:25.320 --> 0:38:29.200
<v Speaker 1>on iTunes for more episodes and to subscribe. For more information,

0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:38.400
<v Speaker 1>visit Loud and Quiet dot com