1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: On this episode of Betrayal, you're going to meet a 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: survivor of male sexual assault. It's a Hollywood actor. Many 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of us have an infinity for Anthony Edwards. If you 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: watched er in the nineteen nineties or early two thousands, 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: then you might have known him as doctor Mark Green, 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: and before that as Goose in the iconic film Top Gun. 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: Pure unadulterated rage, anger that I had never felt before. 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: I wanted to take out a full page ad and 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: Variety and say, you know, doctor Green and Goose was 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 2: assaulted by this man, and have a wanted picture of him. 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: I'm under a gunning. This is Betrayal, season three, episode 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: seven one and six. Justin Rutherford's betrayal of Tyler, his wife, Stacy, 13 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: and family opened my eyes to a whole new community. 14 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: It's men who are sexually abused and are carrying the 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: trauma into adulthood. They are husbands, sons, brothers, fathers, and friends, 16 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,279 Speaker 1: and they have been largely silent and hurting. Some like Tyler, 17 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: are seeking a community. It's something he expressed in an 18 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: earlier episode. 19 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 3: There's no one that relates to you. You hit YouTube 20 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 3: or Google and you know you're searching self help videos 21 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 3: or stuff related to your trauma, and you're scrolling there's 22 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 3: not a lot of resources out there. 23 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: We found a resource that we thought Tyler should know about. 24 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: It's called one and six, an organization which helps male 25 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: survivors through providing information and support resources, and the name 26 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: denotes what research has shown that one in six men 27 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: have experienced sexual abuse or assault, whether in childhood or 28 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: as adults. So we arranged a meeting with the heads 29 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: of one in six and Tyler Stacy. Tyler's mom was 30 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: there too. 31 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 4: It's huge when you're in patum. 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: In our studio B we wanted to spend a day 33 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: peeling back the layers of why it is so difficult 34 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: for men of any age to seek help as victims 35 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: of male sexual abuse and assault. Anthony Edwards is the 36 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: chairman and national spokesperson for one in six dot org. 37 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: I'm a professional pretender by trade. I've been an actor 38 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: professionally since I was sixteen. 39 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: Anthony has spent his career in the spotlight, but it 40 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: wasn't until he was fifty two that he came out 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: of the shadow of abuse to tell his story. 42 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: I was assaulted by my mentor, the man who had 43 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: taught me a lot about theater and about art and 44 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: was intimately involved with my love for acting. And as 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 2: a result of the betrayal, I lived most of my 46 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: life and fear because my experience of having been assaulted 47 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: as a kid set me up for being afraid and 48 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: not trusting in people, places, or things. 49 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: Anthony is now a leading advocate for male sexual abuse survivors. 50 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: One of the one and six's co founders also joined 51 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: the discussion. 52 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 5: My name is David Lisak. I'm a clinical psychologist. I've 53 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 5: spent my career working in the area of trauma and 54 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 5: also violence. I've studied perpetrators and I've also studied, primarily 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 5: men who experienced child abuse. I have spent the last 56 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 5: thirty some years working at applied areas training law enforcement 57 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 5: and prosecutors. 58 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: We wanted to give Tyler the opportunity to connect with 59 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: someone who truly knows what he's dealing with, so we 60 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: asked Anthony to share more of his story with Tyler. 61 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: Men by nature minimize, deny, hide, and isolate, and that's 62 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: the tragic result of what happens to people who were 63 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: assaulted or traumatized as kids. And I learned to survive 64 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: by hyper focusing. I think probably the reason why I 65 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: worked so young and so hard is because that was 66 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 2: the way to survive. That was the way out be 67 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: an actor, achieve everything. The other flip side of that 68 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: is that acting was something that I loved. It was 69 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 2: really important to me before I met this person, and 70 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: when this person came in and twisted it all, I 71 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: still had that core of the joy of that, and 72 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: that's what always I kept trying to reconnect to reminds 73 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: me of the fact that we can be damaged, we 74 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: can be hurt, but that core of who we are 75 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: is always there, and that's what recovery is about. That's 76 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: what I've learned about recovery is that you're recovering the good. 77 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: You're not there to take away all the bad. 78 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: When you were fifty two, what inspired you do start 79 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: talking about this? What happened to you? 80 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 2: Pure unadulterated rage, anger that I had never felt before. 81 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 2: The man who had been my perpetrator been the perpetrator. 82 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: We try not to say min because he's not mine. 83 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 2: He is a perpetrator. Was back in the news and 84 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 2: twenty two years before I had had the experience. When 85 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,799 Speaker 2: I was thirty years old of being a new father, 86 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: and I had run into him on a plane and 87 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 2: I said, hey, you did was wrong. What you did 88 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: to us as kids was wrong. And I confronted him, 89 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: and he then spent about twenty minutes telling me as 90 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: a walk from the plane about how it was the 91 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: worst thing in his life. He'd gotten help, he no 92 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: longer hurt children, he'd felt remorse, that he was healed, 93 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 2: and he was trying to lead a good life. And 94 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: I bought it. Fifty two when all of a sudden 95 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: he was in the news having been accused. I was 96 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 2: so angry. I was so filled with rage, and I 97 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: wanted to take out a full page ad and Variety 98 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: and say, you know, doctor Green and Goose was assaulted 99 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: by this man, and have a wanted picture of him. Luckily, 100 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: a friend took me and said, before you do that, 101 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: why don't you go talk to this psychiatrist and start 102 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: your journey of healing of what really happened to you 103 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: when you were a teenager. 104 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: So you almost turn that anger into purpose. 105 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: I luckily did, and I think a lot of survivors don't. 106 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: We've learned a lot from the Me Too movement, and 107 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: there's a lot of women that were hurt and abused 108 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: and they need to get together and get angry and 109 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: shout out. My experience or experience at one and six 110 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: is that a lot of men are already really angry 111 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: and they're already acting out. 112 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: I asked Anthony how the trauma of his sexual abuse 113 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: impacted important relationships. 114 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: The same year that I disclosed, the same year that 115 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: my marriage ended. The problems within that relationship were directly 116 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: affected by my inability to be truthful and honest with 117 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: myself and what my experiences were. So you'll see that 118 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: when you talk to men in their fifties, they're at 119 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: this crisis of looking at this because a lot of 120 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: their life has exploded. The result of unprocessed trauma will 121 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: definitely manifest itself in unhealthy relationships. 122 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: Tyler, what parts of Anthony's story resonate with you? 123 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 3: A lot of it, having to like overachieve and just 124 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 3: be super successful in life, having that desire to want 125 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 3: to do something bigger than myself and help others because 126 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: of what I've been through and use my story for good. 127 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: At the end of the day, we've gone through the 128 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: same thing. I can relate to him. 129 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: I know you guys spoke a little bit in the 130 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: green room, but can you give us a little bit 131 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: to the extent that you're comfortable what happened to you? 132 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 133 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: So I was abused by my stepfather growing up, started 134 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 3: around age nine to ten, all the way up until 135 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 3: right before I turned sixteen. He had assaulted one of 136 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: my friends, and growing up as a kid going through it, 137 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 3: I didn't know that it was terrible thinking I was 138 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 3: all alone. And I'm not saying that it's good to 139 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 3: know he did it to other people, but it let 140 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 3: me know that I wasn't the problem, that this was 141 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 3: just like a terrible man, and other people had felt 142 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 3: that pain too. Again, not that that's a good thing, 143 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: but it makes you feel understood sometimes, like in some way. 144 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: You learned so much unfortunately when you start uncovering these rocks. 145 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: But the predator in my case very much worked with 146 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: a group. We had a group of boys that were 147 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: all into theater. We were his special group. And so 148 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: the grooming aspect, which you realize that so much of 149 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: this is about control and power and not I mean sex, Yes, 150 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: but the most important thing is the control and the 151 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: manipulation and the power, and part of the silencing is 152 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: the fact that you think, oh, well, I'm not being 153 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 2: hurt as badly as Scott is. Scott's really getting the 154 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: brunt of this, and oh, oh, it's my fault that 155 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 2: it's happening. So it's a way of keeping everybody silenced. 156 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 3: And then like for me, I was always trying to 157 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: bring friends over like as much as I could, because 158 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: it gave me a sense of safety. I thought like, 159 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 3: this was only happening to me, that he had something 160 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 3: for me. I don't know why, necessarily, I didn't think 161 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 3: like it was him. It was just he had something 162 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 3: for me. Little did I know that I was bringing 163 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 3: all those friends into a dangerous situation because I wanted 164 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 3: to be safe. And if someone would have told me, 165 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 3: this is hurting all your friends and your family and 166 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 3: you're bringing your friends right to it, I probably had 167 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 3: have done it. That would have made me break my silence. 168 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: Psychologist David Leasak heard something that didn't sit right with him. 169 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: I sniffed a little guilt. 170 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, because you got like some friends who he 171 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 3: had done stuff too. 172 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: But who did it to him? 173 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 5: To your friends, it was. 174 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: My stepdad at the time. Don't call him that no more. 175 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I really don't want you to walk around with 176 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 5: that guilt because it ain't yours. 177 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: It's not your fault. 178 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 3: I'd say that's probably like the worst thing of it 179 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: all to this day now, because I like worked on 180 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 3: what my problems were, but not I guess that problem 181 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 3: because I thought it more so had to do with 182 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 3: just feeling bad for those people, but more so it's 183 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 3: feeling bad for how I went about it. 184 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that cut me silent for a long time because 185 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: my best friend Scott was the one who was repeatedly raped, 186 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: and he was a gay man, and he died of 187 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: AIDS in nineteen ninety four. My silence really weighed on 188 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: the fact that I thought, my God, if I could 189 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 2: have said something, if I would have done something, would 190 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: his relationship to sex and promiscuity been different? God still 191 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: be alive today. They make you feel responsible and to 192 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 2: this day, as David's pointing out us sitting here and 193 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: here you are doing this heroic thing, there's still a 194 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: part of you that's going, fuck, why do I bring 195 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: my friends over? You know that that's somehow your fault 196 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: and it is not your fault, and that's something we 197 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 2: all work on and we carry You're truly heroic and 198 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: strong to be nineteen and talking. 199 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: Tyler's willingness to share his story at his young age 200 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: really is remarkable. Anthony understands the significance, and so does David. 201 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: He isn't only an expert on child abuse and perpetrators, 202 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: he's also a survivor. 203 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 5: I disclosed for the first time I know. It was 204 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 5: in my thirties. I think the way in which the 205 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 5: abuse that I suffered affected my relationships primarily was sort 206 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 5: of a deep lack of trust. I was abused by 207 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 5: somebody who was living in our house. He was a 208 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 5: border in order to help cover the rant. We were 209 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 5: pretty poor, and my mother was a refugee from Europe 210 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 5: and this guy was a refugee from Asia from all 211 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 5: World War two. And he would come into my brother 212 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 5: and my bedroom and he would wake me up by 213 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 5: suffocating me, and then he would take me out of 214 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 5: the room. In between our bedroom and his room, there 215 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 5: was a hallway about maybe eight feet and in that 216 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 5: eight feet every night I would be terrified, knowing what 217 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 5: it's about to happen to me again. And my brother 218 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 5: is sleeping over there ten feet from me. My mother 219 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 5: is ten feet down the hall way and I'm alone 220 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 5: and nobody's protect me. I was five years old, and 221 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 5: that's where I lost my trust. You know, if my 222 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 5: mother doesn't protect me, if my brother doesn't protect I 223 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 5: had no father, there's nobody's I don't have trust in anybody. 224 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 5: And it took me a good chunk of my life 225 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 5: to get out of that hallway. Yeah, to get out 226 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 5: of that hallway exactly. 227 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 228 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that moment affected everyone in the room. It was heartbreaking, 229 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: not only the awful abuse David suffered, but the years 230 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: it took for him to process and work through the trauma. 231 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: Anthony pointed out that Tyler was changing the pattern. 232 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: You're setting an example not of success. That it's all 233 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: gone and done and we got rid of it, but 234 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: the shame is less. You're not going to carry that. 235 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: You're not going to carry what's not yours. You know, 236 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: this was done to you, not because of you. 237 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: Coming up, Doctor David Lee Sach explains how Tyler's experience 238 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: was like living in a war zone. We are sitting 239 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: with Stacy and Tyler as they speak with actor Anthony 240 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: Edwards and clinical psychologist doctor David Lee Sack. 241 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: Here's Anthony to this day I believe the perpetrator in 242 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: my experience, believed that he was doing it because that's 243 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: what I needed, what I wanted because there was a 244 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: lack of that role model in my life. I didn't 245 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: have a father figure. He was going to be the 246 00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: father figure. That exploitation of someone's desire is where they 247 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: get in. Oh you want to be loved, Oh your 248 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: dad's not around. Oh you want this. You want to 249 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: be part of a group, you want to have a career, 250 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: you want to succeed, And you learn that love is conditional. 251 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: There's no such thing as unconditional love. If you're not 252 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: experiencing it, that is love. Love is conditional. Yeah, so 253 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: you don't trust, you don't trust. I say, that's why 254 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: I became a good actor, because I could go into 255 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: a room and I could assess everything. Because you need 256 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: to know where you're safe, where you're not, who you 257 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: can trust. So you get really good at playing a 258 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: room to know how to survive, because surviving is the 259 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: most important thing, because when your spirit's broken like that, 260 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: you feel like you'll die if you don't. 261 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 262 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 3: No, it's hard to find joy in things. Really, Like 263 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: I would say, I've worked past my depression, and I've 264 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 3: worked on myself. I've come very far, but it's hard 265 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 3: to really find something I enjoy. Like I love watching 266 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: a movie with my mom or my girlfriend, but like 267 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 3: I couldn't do that alone. I wouldn't enjoy it. I 268 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 3: don't know what I want to do. I know I 269 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 3: want to do something big and important, make a change, 270 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: but I have no clue really what that is. 271 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you both felt this need to overachieve 272 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: in your own ways. Where do you think that comes from? 273 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 3: In my head, I like picture where I want my 274 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 3: life to be, and like I just sometimes tell myself, 275 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: I know I'll be happy when I have that dream 276 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 3: job and I have that wife that loves me and 277 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: that family that I wanted in that house that's paid all, 278 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 3: and that maybe not sports car, but decent car. I'm 279 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 3: not looking for anything crazy, but still that's what i want. 280 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 2: But the irony, of course, is that you're using all 281 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: of these conditions to do it. I use techniques that 282 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: I learned which were conditional. Oh, if I do this, 283 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: if I get this role, then that will take care 284 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: of it. If I get this, I'll believe with it. 285 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: If I find the right person, then I will have 286 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: the perfect family. It was always looking ahead as opposed 287 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: to right here and now. So I have to do 288 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: all these things to get there, and that is a 289 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 2: habit trail or a spinning wheel that is impossible to 290 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 2: maintain your whole life. But as long as I was 291 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: in the mindset of this and this and this is 292 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: going to make me happy, it didn't work. It didn't work. 293 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: Happiness is very hard to achieve when you're conditioned to 294 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: have to do something to get love. 295 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I live a lot in what he was saying. 296 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: You constantly tell yourself, I'll be happy when I get this, 297 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 3: or as I'm approaching this, I'll be happy. And yeah, 298 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 3: I'll frequently say that, but I've been trying to be 299 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 3: better about it. 300 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: Anthony. As a child to learn that love is conditional, 301 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: that's a really scary thing. Was it until you came 302 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: a parent? Did you unlock this unconditional love? 303 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 2: It was directly related to being a parent. That's the miracle, 304 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: Like I found the strength to confront this man. When 305 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: you're a parent and you experience that unconditional love, it 306 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 2: changes you. 307 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: With the stigma and the fact that men typically don't 308 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: disclose until much later, in life, could the number be actually. 309 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 5: We know it is different. That's just what's I mean, 310 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 5: David could speak to that. It's a notoriously difficult area 311 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 5: to study, because there's actually a couple studies that have 312 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 5: shown that even when you have documentary evidence that a 313 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 5: man was sexually abused as a child and you then 314 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 5: ask them later in life if they were ever sexually abused, 315 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 5: the vast majority of those men will deny it, Some 316 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 5: have lost the memory, most probably are just not willing 317 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 5: to spawned. So as a researcher, I connected many studies 318 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 5: and found, you know, about one and six man were 319 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 5: acknowledging that they had had some kind of experience that 320 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 5: meets the definition of sexual abuse. And I'm absolutely certain 321 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 5: that it is only you know, some fraction of the 322 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 5: actual number. What the actual number is, I can't even 323 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 5: guess it's greater than one and six, that's for sure. 324 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: The conversation about denial sparked a thought from Tyler's mom Stacy. 325 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 4: You even said, had it not been for the discovery 326 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 4: of the cameras in our home, he intended to take 327 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 4: it to his grave. I mean that was just his thought. 328 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 3: I mean, the plan was to get the hell out. 329 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 3: I kept telling myself, next year, it'll stop because I'll 330 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 3: be older, I'll look more like a man, and never stopped, 331 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 3: and I just kept telling myself I can push through 332 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: high school. 333 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 5: You know, it's important to understand that the intensity of 334 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 5: Tyler's need for purpose, it's the same as soldiers coming 335 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 5: back from war. The experience in a war zone is 336 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 5: so intense. You're frightened all the time, you see death, 337 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 5: and it actually affects your brain. You know, your brain 338 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 5: gets kind of reset to live on edge, and every second, 339 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 5: every moment is charged with you know, what if, what if? 340 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 3: What if? 341 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 5: And what do I have to do to survive this? 342 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,239 Speaker 5: When you live with the kind of daily fear that 343 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 5: you lived with you were in a combat zone, yeah, 344 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 5: you know, it's the same thing, and it really recalibrates 345 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 5: your brain, and it takes really a long time to 346 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 5: sort of recalibrate again, so that, yes, you could be 347 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 5: in a situation where you are once again in that 348 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 5: kind of danger, but most of life isn't that way. 349 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 5: It just takes a while to get to a point 350 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 5: where your nervous system and your brain are kind of 351 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,239 Speaker 5: just a little bit more quiet. It's okay to just 352 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 5: have a quiet day. You really were in combat and 353 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 5: you're coming out of it now. 354 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: Stacey was sharing something with me this morning about one 355 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: of her concerns for you. Do you want to share 356 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: a little bit. 357 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 4: A huge concern for me is when I start to 358 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 4: feel that something's not okay with you. You're kind of 359 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 4: quiet or things like that, and you tell me that 360 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 4: you're okay. You're trained for so long to be quiet 361 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 4: and to lie to everyone around you about what's going 362 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 4: on in your world and how you feel. But I 363 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 4: worry that there are times where he's telling me he's okay, 364 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 4: and I'm still dealing with that child again, who's lying 365 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 4: to me. 366 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 2: You're bringing up just a really important part of all 367 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: this too. Everybody's affected by this event, these traumatic events. 368 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 2: Everybody who loves and cares about these individuals is affected. 369 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: And in the same way that you have to give 370 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 2: Tyler space for his change, he also has to and 371 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 2: you have to take the space for yourself as a 372 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: parent to process what it is to feel that, oh 373 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 2: my god, why didn't I do anything? How Come I 374 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: didn't protect And so you have to allow yourself You're 375 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: healing in this process because You can't only be good 376 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: if Tyler's good. You have to be good unto yourself. 377 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: But you can make your happiness conditional on whether or 378 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 2: not Tyler recovers, because he's going to and he is recovering. 379 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 5: It's worthwhile to remember from time to time that there's 380 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 5: another part of the equation here, and that is that 381 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 5: both of you were groomed. I've spent a lot of 382 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 5: my career studying predators, and grooming is an integral part 383 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 5: of these predations, and it's not just the direct victim 384 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 5: who's groomed. We're in Boston here now, and I was 385 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 5: here during the nineteen ninety Catholic Clergy eruption of cases. 386 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 5: I interviewed a number of both victims of John Gagan, 387 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 5: one of the most prolific predators, and also the mothers 388 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 5: of some of his victims. And Gagan was just a 389 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 5: brilliant groomer, and he started by mothers, which gave him 390 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 5: access to the children, and he would then pick which 391 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 5: one of the children, mostly boys, because he understood that 392 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 5: boys are less likely to disclose. So you were both 393 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 5: victimized by that grooming process, and that's something that you 394 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 5: are still coping with. Yeah, everybody can be groomed. 395 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: Everybody. 396 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 5: What grooming is is taking human trust and perverting it. 397 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 5: It's almost impossible to detect it. And predators practice this, 398 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 5: so they're not just doing this for the first time. 399 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 5: They practiced this over many, many years, and they get 400 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 5: better and better and better at it, so everybody is 401 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 5: susceptible to it. 402 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: You typically hear from men that are much older than Tyler. 403 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: Can you talk about the impact of a conversation that's 404 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: starting with a nineteen year old on this public of 405 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: a platform. What does that do to the overall conversation. 406 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 5: Well, Tyler, let me turn a question to you. All right, 407 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 5: Let's imagine that there's a fifteen year old boy who's 408 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 5: in a situation like you were in. 409 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: What would you say to him? 410 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 3: Probably tell him to listen to the podcast Good Start. 411 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 2: I don't know. 412 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 3: I'd probably tell him it might seem like the end 413 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 3: of the world, but it's not. I'm not going to 414 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 3: lie to you and tell you it's going to be easy. 415 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 3: But just like anything that, you find ways to overcome 416 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 3: it and it'll happen. It's possible. You just gotta want it. 417 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: And one in six dot org has tools to help. 418 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 5: You can find not only therapists, you can find support groups. 419 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 5: You can find pure support groups, you can find other survivors. 420 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 5: What we are really focused on here is to confront 421 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 5: and challenge the stigma that silences men, so that young 422 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 5: men like Tyler here who has the guts to come forward. 423 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 5: We appreciate what you're doing and we don't want you 424 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 5: to be alone. 425 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 3: Like what he was saying, men definitely minimize because I 426 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: was talking to one of my buddies a while back 427 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 3: and he was talking about how he had lost his 428 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 3: virginity at like twelve, and I was like, yeah, no, 429 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 3: that's that sexual assault. Dude. 430 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: Well that's what you're doing men. You're naming it, and 431 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: you're just that's you're changing it. You're changing the world. 432 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 2: But those simple conversations, That's what I also like to 433 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: say too, is like you don't have to be on 434 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: a podcast to affect you know, these are the normalizing 435 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 2: conversation and that's where the change happens. And you're doing 436 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: it in a selfless way. That is really important. And 437 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 2: you will here, I guarantee it, you will hear it 438 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 2: because I know whenever I'm in a situation and there's 439 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: a group of fifty or sixty people and I'm sharing 440 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: part of my story or whatever it is. One out 441 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: of six of them are survivors. 442 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: Coming up, we ask Anthony and doctor Lisak how we 443 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,479 Speaker 1: can approach children who are holding back what has happened 444 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: to them. As we continue our conversation with Stacy Tyler, 445 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: Anthony Edwards, and clinical psychologists doctor David Lisak, we wanted 446 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: to hear their advice on how to approach children who 447 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: are afraid to share their abuse. How do we help 448 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: them feel safe enough to disclose. 449 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: It's a question comes up all the time. How do 450 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: we stop this from happening to kids? We normalize the conversation. 451 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: We take the power of the stigma out of this 452 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: by doing exactly what we're doing here today, so that 453 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: that can role model for people to do it privately 454 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: and quietly. It's not about me going out and being public. 455 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,719 Speaker 2: It's about taking away the power which is done through secrecy. 456 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 2: And like breast cancer, many many women were dying of 457 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: it because there was shame about even talking about it. 458 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: When we started to normalize that conversation, the energy around 459 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: it just lowered the numbers. Because that's all we're trying 460 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: to do. We're not going to get rid of perpetrators. 461 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: We're not going to get rid of this disease, the 462 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 2: sickness of pedophilia. But what we are going to change 463 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: is our reaction time to it and that place where 464 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: a twelve year old or a thirteen year old might 465 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: be able to turn to a trusted aunt or uncle 466 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: or brother or sister. 467 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 5: I don't see how we could absolutely come up with 468 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 5: a plan. Here's a planner, Here are the rules. Right 469 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 5: follow these rules and it'll never happen in your family 470 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 5: or never happen to your kids. It's being willing to 471 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 5: talk about this. 472 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 2: There are a couple of big things that we could 473 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: jump at right away, right now, and that's institutional protection. 474 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: You shouldn't have a place where, you know, unvettered adults 475 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 2: can go and spend three days in the woods with children. 476 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: That's just not okay. And we accept these things because 477 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 2: we're accepting institutional norms that need to be looked at, 478 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 2: and institutions need to be held accountable, especially when they 479 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: serve children, and talking about it is really important. It's 480 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 2: that simple thing of not calling it a wigwam or 481 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: your horky doky whatever, it's a penis, it's a vagina. 482 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: These are things on our body that we talk about. 483 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: We don't have shame, we don't have embarrassment about it, 484 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 2: and I mean, it's that kind of thing I believe 485 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: that will help. 486 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: Saying it out loud to a safe and trusted person 487 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: is the begining of a new chapter. 488 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 2: Literally, that moment when they had that first conversation where 489 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: they said, you know, something happened to me when I 490 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: was a kid, and someone listened and they were heard 491 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 2: and they weren't hurt. That's all we're looking for those 492 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: moments because that's the beginning of recovery. And all we 493 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: want to do is start people on their journey because 494 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 2: everybody recovers differently. Isolation is the killer. No one gets 495 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: out of this alone. 496 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 1: And finally, what advice do Anthony and doctor Lisak have 497 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: for Tyler. 498 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: It's the beginning of a journey that's a good one. 499 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: It gets better, it's worth it. It takes some time, 500 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: you know, and that's what you're going to be able 501 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: to share as a nineteen year old that we couldn't 502 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: share as old guys. And there's one other. 503 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 5: Thing I want to make sure you understand this part 504 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 5: in all this time, and it's going to take that. 505 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 2: We're telling you to really heal. 506 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 5: You know it's an ongoing process, but you know it 507 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 5: deepens you, really does deepen you. You go through this 508 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 5: process that you have already started on, you're building yourself, 509 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 5: you know, not your physical self, but who you are, 510 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 5: and that gets bigger and stronger, and the trauma stays 511 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 5: the same, and so the relationship between the size of 512 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 5: that trauma and the size of you keeps changing, until 513 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 5: you'll find yourself as a full of doubt in your 514 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 5: thirties or forties, and you'll realize that, you know, it's 515 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 5: a much smaller part of you than it was, and 516 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 5: in a weird way, the trauma has helped you grow. 517 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 2: It's truly well. 518 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 4: We just want to say that we appreciate you doing 519 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 4: this for us. 520 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 3: Thank you. 521 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: This was huge. On the next episode of Betrayal, Stacey 522 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: goes back to the Berks County Courthouse for the final 523 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: part of Justin Rutherford's criminal prosecution, where he answers for 524 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: his plot to kill Tyler. 525 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 4: I was prepared to testify it. 526 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: If you're a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault, 527 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 1: or you know someone who is seeking support, go to 528 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: one and six dot org. That's the number one I 529 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: n number six dot org. Find a path to a happier, 530 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: healthier future. If you would like to reach out to 531 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. 532 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be 533 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for 534 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: all Betrayal content, news and updates. We're grateful for your support. 535 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: One way to show support is by subscribing to our 536 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and 537 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A 538 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is 539 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: a production of Glass podcast a division of Glass Entertainment Group, 540 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced 541 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by 542 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kerrie Hartman, also 543 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: produced by Ben Fetterman and Trey Morgan. Associate producers are 544 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,919 Speaker 1: Kristin Melcury and Caitlyn Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali 545 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Special thanks to Stacy Rutherford Tyler 546 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: and the rest of Stacy and Tyler's friends and family, 547 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: and to Anthony Edwards, doctor David Lesak, and the entire 548 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: One in six organization. Audio editing and mixing by Matt 549 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: Talfechio editing support from Nico Aruka. Betrayals theme composed by 550 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mob Music and For 551 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 552 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.