WEBVTT - Creating a Unified Perspective of Life on Earth

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. We want to

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<v Speaker 1>get to the author of a new book, Earthly Order,

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<v Speaker 1>How Natural Laws Define Human Life, So let's get to it.

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<v Speaker 1>Salima Lee is professor of Energy and the Environment at

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<v Speaker 1>the University of Delaware. Also, as Carol just mentioned, the

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<v Speaker 1>author of Earthly Order, How Natural Laws to Find Human Life? Selim,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you very well? Thank you Tim, Well, thanks

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<v Speaker 1>so much for joining us here. When you when you

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<v Speaker 1>write about natural laws defining human life, what do you mean, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's basically looking at some of the fundamental constraints that

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<v Speaker 1>the planet has on us. So, you know, when we

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<v Speaker 1>talk about markets, markets are ultimately dependent on some aspect

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<v Speaker 1>of natural resource constraints. And uh so we're going back

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<v Speaker 1>to the basic laws of nature essentially and making sure

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<v Speaker 1>that we align our economic and social systems in congruence

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<v Speaker 1>with those constraints. You know. It's I've talked about this

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<v Speaker 1>before on air, so listeners will be familiar with it.

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<v Speaker 1>But I grew up in California and I had a

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<v Speaker 1>professor in college. I went to college in Maine, a

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<v Speaker 1>professor in college, you said California is a place where

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<v Speaker 1>nobody should ever have lived because of the lack of

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<v Speaker 1>water and the wildfires. And I'm wondering, professor, if if

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<v Speaker 1>the market is failing in that sense, because you see

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<v Speaker 1>California home prices still just out of control. And I

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<v Speaker 1>say to myself, wait a second, and this is somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who has family in California. Why are people living in

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<v Speaker 1>a place where there is no water? Yeah, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>if you go back to that classic Hollywood film Chinatown,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it goes to that kind of the heart

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<v Speaker 1>of that challenge in California in terms of water security.

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<v Speaker 1>And one could say the same of Phoenix, Arizona. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>so many places where we have designed human habitation without

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<v Speaker 1>really considering, um, the natural constraints there, and especially the

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<v Speaker 1>number of people who lived there. I mean, perhaps you

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<v Speaker 1>could have some level of population. But that's that's a

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<v Speaker 1>good example pull of that. And engineers have given us

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<v Speaker 1>this illusion that we can basically uh use technology to

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<v Speaker 1>construct all these systems. And for the short term, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>they work fine, and but in the long term, the

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<v Speaker 1>stress is going to build up eventually, and and that's

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<v Speaker 1>what we have to be conscious of. Well, and I

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<v Speaker 1>do wonder about, you know, as you think about this

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<v Speaker 1>order and the things that are so connected, and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>and how we teach it to our younger generation, like

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<v Speaker 1>how do we need to be rethinking things? Because you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm listening to you speak and I've been thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>is it time for us to tell the world back off,

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<v Speaker 1>stop consuming so much because earth can handle it? Like

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<v Speaker 1>I've really been thinking about or such a consumption lead society,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's really being brought uh down as a result.

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<v Speaker 1>But tell us a bit about how everything kind of

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<v Speaker 1>connects with one another, natural social systems, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>and how it can maybe you know, give us heads

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<v Speaker 1>up on where we're going good or bad? Ad? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I am very much. Um. You know, approaching

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<v Speaker 1>this from a practical point of view, we we are

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<v Speaker 1>going to need to consume in order to uh sustain livelihoods,

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<v Speaker 1>but we need to move towards constructive consumption rather than

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<v Speaker 1>having consumption which is not considering some of those natural constraints.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm all for green growth. I mean, there are

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<v Speaker 1>many ways in which you can use the capitalist system

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<v Speaker 1>in a very constructive way. Um, But what we have

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<v Speaker 1>done is we have not really considered some of those

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<v Speaker 1>fundamental constraints that physics puts on us. I mean, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>many years ago, you know, in the nineteen six seventies,

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<v Speaker 1>there was an economist who wrote a book. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it was published by Harvard University Press, was called The

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<v Speaker 1>Entropy Law and Economics. His name was Nicholas georgesco Rogin

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<v Speaker 1>Romanian immigrant who wrote this, and you know, it was

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<v Speaker 1>a wonderful book. But and what it tried to do

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<v Speaker 1>was to link some of those physical constraints to economics.

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<v Speaker 1>But unfortunately we have we we lost our way at

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<v Speaker 1>some point and we could have great growth, we could

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<v Speaker 1>have markets functioning, but we just need to do them

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<v Speaker 1>within those constraints. All right. So if we did that,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, how would how would markets react? How would

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<v Speaker 1>our world change? Well, we would just have different kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of products. And we I mean we're seeing that now,

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<v Speaker 1>but to some degree we're seeing you know, the growth

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<v Speaker 1>of of green products, but it has happened as a reaction.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh and it's still very neat. Rather than can I

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<v Speaker 1>can I jump in for a second. So then do

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<v Speaker 1>you think when we're seeing the constraints of energy supplies

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<v Speaker 1>as a result of the Russian warranty Ukraine, that we

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't necessarily release supplies produce more because ultimately it's a

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<v Speaker 1>fixed commodity. At some point it's going to run out.

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<v Speaker 1>But let innovation disruption happen all the energy. I guess

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying, yeah, I mean, I mean with regard to

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<v Speaker 1>part of it is that we are also very knee

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<v Speaker 1>jerk in our approach to looking at even environmental problems.

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<v Speaker 1>And so it's not just I don't want to just

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<v Speaker 1>put all the blame on the markets. I think environmentalists

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<v Speaker 1>share the blame that they don't make science based decisions.

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<v Speaker 1>So for example, with the war and Ukraine. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>three weeks ago, Europe had to pass new legislation to

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<v Speaker 1>basically classify nuclear energy as clean energy. And that's because

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<v Speaker 1>they completely had this panic attack after Fukushima and they

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<v Speaker 1>didn't consider that actually, from a natural science perspective, nuclear power,

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<v Speaker 1>especially existing nuclear power plants which were already operating, made

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of sense to provide baseload power. And now

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<v Speaker 1>they have no baseload power, so they have to either

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<v Speaker 1>be important gas from Russia or they have to reclassify nuclear.

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<v Speaker 1>So the environmentalists share this blame that we do not

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<v Speaker 1>have science based decision making. We have what I call

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<v Speaker 1>environmental awareness, but we don't have environmental literacy. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that's the real challenge we have, and that's what Earthly

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<v Speaker 1>Order tries to do. I don't want to be, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just a bleeding heart environmentalist in the book, I really

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<v Speaker 1>want to make the connection between practicism and consumerism. So

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<v Speaker 1>then come back again, because we would love to continue

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<v Speaker 1>with this and there's certainly a topic that comes up

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<v Speaker 1>a lot. Salimali, Professor of Energy in the Environment at

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<v Speaker 1>the University of Delaware. His book Earthly Order, How Natural

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<v Speaker 1>Laws define Human Life