WEBVTT - Learning From Failure, Avoiding Regret, and Managing Risk with Restaurateur Henry Rich 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:29.044 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:29.124 --> 0:00:33.004 better decisions. I'm Maria Kondikova. My regular co host, Nate 0:00:33.044 --> 0:00:35.564 Silver is off this week and instead I'm joined by 0:00:35.564 --> 0:00:38.244 a dear friend, Henry Rich, whom I've known for too 0:00:38.324 --> 0:00:38.924 many years. 0:00:39.524 --> 0:00:40.404 I don't want to age. 0:00:40.244 --> 0:00:42.444 Both of us, but we've known each other since our 0:00:42.484 --> 0:00:45.804 college days. We're very excited to have Henry on today. 0:00:46.404 --> 0:00:49.124 Henry is a serial entrepreneur. He's the head of the 0:00:49.164 --> 0:00:52.444 Oberon Restaurant Group, which has some of my favorite restaurants 0:00:52.484 --> 0:00:54.844 in New York City, and I can't wait to ask 0:00:54.924 --> 0:00:58.524 him about managing risk in one of the world's riskiest industries, 0:00:59.204 --> 0:01:03.244 learning from failure and the motivating force of regret. Henry, 0:01:03.284 --> 0:01:04.804 thanks so much for joining us. 0:01:05.124 --> 0:01:06.604 Absolute pleasure. Good to see you. 0:01:06.804 --> 0:01:09.844 Good to see you too. So a little bit of background. 0:01:09.884 --> 0:01:12.724 We met at Harvard. I was a freshman and you 0:01:12.804 --> 0:01:16.324 were a senior. You are older than I am rsually, 0:01:18.084 --> 0:01:21.564 and I'd love to actually start before we get you know, 0:01:21.604 --> 0:01:26.564 into everything that you're doing right now. Your background at 0:01:26.564 --> 0:01:29.364 Harvard is one of the most unique that that I know, 0:01:30.524 --> 0:01:34.484 and it's something that I would not have thought that 0:01:34.604 --> 0:01:37.924 you know today you'd be a successful entrepreneur kind of 0:01:37.964 --> 0:01:39.364 doing what you're doing right now. 0:01:39.364 --> 0:01:40.324 Because you majored. 0:01:40.324 --> 0:01:43.244 You created your own major, and it was in esthetics, 0:01:43.324 --> 0:01:44.924 if I remember correctly. 0:01:45.244 --> 0:01:50.804 Yes, how I got from that to being an entrepreneur 0:01:52.324 --> 0:01:55.924 was in part lack of other options, but also I 0:01:55.964 --> 0:02:01.404 think I just I left with this really strong kind 0:02:01.444 --> 0:02:05.924 of individual almost you know, existential streak that left me 0:02:06.124 --> 0:02:09.284 working for myself. And you know, the default for working 0:02:09.324 --> 0:02:13.284 for yourself is to create these entities around me that 0:02:13.324 --> 0:02:15.404 I could you know, manage and live my life. 0:02:15.684 --> 0:02:19.484 So yeah, so that makes sense. It's a little bit 0:02:19.524 --> 0:02:21.644 different from you know, most entrepreneurs who are like, you know, 0:02:21.724 --> 0:02:24.084 I majored in economics or I majored in business, and 0:02:24.204 --> 0:02:27.004 this is what I want to do. Your first company, 0:02:27.044 --> 0:02:28.524 I don't know if it was actually your first company, 0:02:28.524 --> 0:02:31.564 but your first company that I'm aware of, was a 0:02:31.604 --> 0:02:35.484 mint company called Oral Fixation. And I remember you graduated 0:02:35.524 --> 0:02:38.204 and you had come back and you gave you know, 0:02:38.284 --> 0:02:40.484 me and and other friends who were still in college 0:02:40.644 --> 0:02:44.844 these little boxes of mints. The Mohido flavors were my favorite. 0:02:45.044 --> 0:02:48.644 So talk us through how you decided to create a 0:02:48.684 --> 0:02:51.524 mint company, how that went, and what that taught you 0:02:51.564 --> 0:02:54.524 about risk and about kind of and about the world 0:02:54.524 --> 0:02:57.564 of business, because obviously that is also quite different from 0:02:57.604 --> 0:03:00.924 the restaurant world, even though we're both both are consumables. 0:03:01.444 --> 0:03:04.484 Yeah, you know, it's funny. I rarely talked about this 0:03:04.484 --> 0:03:06.844 this first company. I would say, I learned a lot 0:03:06.884 --> 0:03:09.804 about hedging and managing risk in terms of, you know, 0:03:09.884 --> 0:03:13.124 what not to do. So I decided to start a 0:03:13.564 --> 0:03:17.084 you know, small manufacturing company in a mature industry where 0:03:17.084 --> 0:03:21.004 most of our competitors were nineteenth century, multi billion dollar 0:03:21.044 --> 0:03:25.404 conglomerates like Wrigley, Mars, you know, Cadbury hershey NeSSI, these 0:03:25.484 --> 0:03:30.484 kind of companies, thinking that through I guess, just working 0:03:30.524 --> 0:03:34.204 hard and being smart and being you know, tasteful, that 0:03:34.204 --> 0:03:39.164 we could somehow dislodge these competitors. It was a terrible 0:03:39.564 --> 0:03:43.164 idea because we had to do our own manufacturing. We 0:03:43.164 --> 0:03:45.724 were selling into you know, thirty five countries, so I 0:03:45.724 --> 0:03:48.404 had to figure out the trade piece of it. All 0:03:48.404 --> 0:03:51.644 the regulations, had to do the consumer marketing, you know, 0:03:51.804 --> 0:03:57.484 manage multiple territories and channels like gift hotels, coffee shops, 0:03:57.964 --> 0:04:00.724 attend you know, hundreds of trade shows. I would say, 0:04:00.724 --> 0:04:04.684 what I learned from that experience is not to do 0:04:05.284 --> 0:04:07.964 just one thing. Because I really did put all my 0:04:08.044 --> 0:04:11.844 eggs in the basket of this company, which even if 0:04:11.884 --> 0:04:13.964 it had been you know, in a smarter category like 0:04:14.204 --> 0:04:18.164 yogurt or chocolate or somewhere where companies actually get acquired, 0:04:18.764 --> 0:04:22.204 it just it was totally susceptible to the Great Recession 0:04:22.764 --> 0:04:25.764 in ways that I didn't appreciate because I was, you know, 0:04:25.804 --> 0:04:31.004 a hebristic, twenty something year old. Seventy five percent of 0:04:31.044 --> 0:04:34.444 our sales dropped from September to October two thousand and eight. 0:04:35.404 --> 0:04:38.364 We literally had a leave in Brothers private label Mint 0:04:38.444 --> 0:04:42.684 for their office in Japan. We had warehouses ransacked in India, 0:04:42.764 --> 0:04:45.844 and a food Riot, our largest British distributor, was acquired. 0:04:45.924 --> 0:04:48.964 Their main customers were acquired by Icelandic banks. We were 0:04:49.004 --> 0:04:51.724 selling in countries whose currencies dropped twenty thirty percent against 0:04:51.724 --> 0:04:55.324 a dollar. So I really realized that I just had 0:04:55.484 --> 0:04:58.284 no idea what I was doing at all and sort 0:04:58.324 --> 0:05:01.124 of deserved to fail catastrophically, which is which is what 0:05:01.204 --> 0:05:05.324 happened with that company. But you know, I did learn 0:05:05.364 --> 0:05:07.884 how to do things on my own. I did learn 0:05:07.884 --> 0:05:09.684 a little bit about the food and beverage business, and 0:05:09.684 --> 0:05:12.764 it sort of you know, set me up for wanting 0:05:12.804 --> 0:05:15.884 to do something related but not you know, starting a 0:05:15.884 --> 0:05:18.444 manufacturing company with no money, which was just you know, 0:05:18.484 --> 0:05:21.404 an insane thing to do, but fun, fun in no way. 0:05:23.444 --> 0:05:25.964 You know, it's it's very rare to talk to someone 0:05:26.324 --> 0:05:28.244 and obviously you've had a lot of success since then. 0:05:28.804 --> 0:05:31.444 Who who takes responsibility and says, you know, I deserve 0:05:31.484 --> 0:05:36.044 to fail? Can you just unpack that a little bit? 0:05:36.604 --> 0:05:38.604 Yeah, there should never have got off It got off 0:05:38.604 --> 0:05:41.724 the ground through through sheer willpower that should never have existed. 0:05:41.764 --> 0:05:45.004 It should never have survived for whatever six years. I 0:05:45.204 --> 0:05:48.204 would say the most critical thing that I failed to 0:05:48.284 --> 0:05:51.444 understand is that what I thought I was contributing to 0:05:51.444 --> 0:05:55.684 this category, which was creating a product that actually had 0:05:55.764 --> 0:06:00.204 more personality, was significantly higher quality. Wasn't cutting every corner 0:06:00.804 --> 0:06:04.524 to hit the masses. These weren't things that were actually 0:06:04.724 --> 0:06:08.604 important for the success. I thought by creating a better 0:06:08.644 --> 0:06:12.604 design and you know, fifty cents instead of like two 0:06:12.684 --> 0:06:15.924 cents on the actual ingredients, we could you know, charge 0:06:15.924 --> 0:06:18.524 three dollars instead of two fifty and pass all of 0:06:18.564 --> 0:06:22.284 this value onto consumers. But this isn't This isn't a 0:06:22.284 --> 0:06:26.204 market segment where taste matters at all. What matters is 0:06:27.084 --> 0:06:32.164 distribution and power. I had this really interesting experience where, 0:06:32.284 --> 0:06:34.124 you know, we were doing the Mohto mint and then 0:06:34.484 --> 0:06:36.564 Wriglely would come out with mit Mohido and they would 0:06:36.564 --> 0:06:39.004 try to trademark and we did this, you know, fabulous 0:06:39.124 --> 0:06:41.924 fruit flavor. They did fibulous for TEENI tried to trademarket 0:06:42.404 --> 0:06:44.044 and they were sort of coming after us, and I 0:06:44.044 --> 0:06:46.404 didn't really understand. I was like, have they no shame, 0:06:46.604 --> 0:06:49.924 no honor? And one of these people came up to 0:06:49.964 --> 0:06:53.484 us at a show where they grabbed one of our 0:06:53.524 --> 0:06:56.004 tins and they didn't even bother turning their tag around. 0:06:56.084 --> 0:06:58.004 And I was like, hey, like, I know what you 0:06:58.044 --> 0:07:01.524 guys do. And the guy looked at me and he's like, yeah, well, 0:07:01.564 --> 0:07:03.844 who has forty seven thousand registers at Walmart? And he 0:07:03.884 --> 0:07:06.524 walked away and I realized I was just I was 0:07:06.724 --> 0:07:12.004 in the wrong place where nobody was asking for a 0:07:12.044 --> 0:07:15.604 better product in this category and it just simply didn't 0:07:15.644 --> 0:07:18.564 matter as opposed to a restaurant, where you know, you 0:07:18.564 --> 0:07:20.404 can have a restaurant that's been there for fifty years 0:07:20.404 --> 0:07:24.364 if you open a slightly better restaurant right next to it, 0:07:24.564 --> 0:07:27.684 your level of taste, your level of execution, your level 0:07:27.684 --> 0:07:31.004 of hard work actually does matter, and people will just 0:07:31.044 --> 0:07:34.604 gravitate to the thing that is slightly better and it's 0:07:34.724 --> 0:07:38.084 much less gated. And I just didn't know that I 0:07:38.164 --> 0:07:42.884 was entering a profoundly gated industry without any of the 0:07:42.924 --> 0:07:45.004 tools that I would have needed to succeed. And the 0:07:45.004 --> 0:07:47.644 world didn't need it, right, And I took a lesson 0:07:47.684 --> 0:07:50.524 that I shouldn't do stuff just to because I think 0:07:50.564 --> 0:07:54.604 it's funny, or to be independent. If it doesn't have 0:07:54.684 --> 0:07:56.484 another reason to be, it's going to fail and it 0:07:56.484 --> 0:07:57.004 should fail. 0:07:57.124 --> 0:07:57.324 Right. 0:07:57.564 --> 0:08:00.084 The world doesn't need, didn't need another breath Man company. 0:08:00.164 --> 0:08:04.124 And that was a you know, strong lesson. And maybe 0:08:04.164 --> 0:08:06.244 people would say, like, hey, the lasting Brooklyn needs is 0:08:06.284 --> 0:08:08.644 another wine bar. But these are things that can be done, 0:08:08.844 --> 0:08:10.844 you know, on a scale from one to one hundred 0:08:10.884 --> 0:08:13.604 and more or less. Well yeah, yeah, well. 0:08:13.484 --> 0:08:15.684 Let's talk about that transition. So you had a business 0:08:15.684 --> 0:08:19.924 that failed, right, as you say, like epic failure, something. 0:08:19.684 --> 0:08:23.084 That I was holding debts that I didn't really have 0:08:23.084 --> 0:08:25.724 a plan to pay off. So I had a timeline. 0:08:26.044 --> 0:08:27.844 You know with like basically within two years that I 0:08:27.884 --> 0:08:30.084 had to figure it out. So a lot of pressure. 0:08:30.444 --> 0:08:34.004 Two thousand and eight, two thousand and ninety ten, you know, 0:08:34.164 --> 0:08:37.164 not not a great environment. Although many amazing companies were 0:08:37.164 --> 0:08:37.804 founded then, but. 0:08:37.924 --> 0:08:41.084 Yeah, so not a great environment. You have debt, you 0:08:41.084 --> 0:08:43.764 had a failed business, and so you decide, of all things, 0:08:43.804 --> 0:08:46.524 to go into the restaurant business. Henry, what is the 0:08:46.564 --> 0:08:49.084 rate of failure in the restaurant business? 0:08:49.564 --> 0:08:52.604 You know, I think something like ninety percent, but I 0:08:52.604 --> 0:08:54.444 can't remember if it's like ninety percent in the first 0:08:54.484 --> 0:09:01.244 year or whatever. But yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, which 0:09:01.244 --> 0:09:02.564 makes sense because. 0:09:02.524 --> 0:09:05.324 Obviously like the obvious solution, right, you have debt, you 0:09:05.404 --> 0:09:07.124 just had a failing business. Let's go into a business 0:09:07.164 --> 0:09:10.084 where ninety percent of business is fill. 0:09:09.644 --> 0:09:11.964 Yeah, well, I think this is this is this is 0:09:11.964 --> 0:09:13.884 part of a problem. I'm like attracted a little bit 0:09:13.884 --> 0:09:16.684 to difficulty in a way that feels kind of like 0:09:16.764 --> 0:09:19.964 exciting and glorious, but then you know, the consequences can 0:09:20.004 --> 0:09:23.324 be overwhelming if you don't, you know, catch a wave. 0:09:24.724 --> 0:09:29.524 But I don't know why, I just I was extremely 0:09:29.524 --> 0:09:32.844 attracted to opening restaurants in Brooklyn in that window of time. 0:09:33.044 --> 0:09:36.044 You know, around like twenty ten, twenty eleven, where there 0:09:36.124 --> 0:09:40.444 was this kind of farm to table thing happening, and 0:09:40.564 --> 0:09:42.964 it just felt like an amazing opportunity to try to 0:09:42.964 --> 0:09:45.884 make some really nice additions to these to these parts 0:09:45.884 --> 0:09:49.924 of the neighborhoods that would otherwise, you know, be chained 0:09:50.164 --> 0:09:53.084 or things that are not really serving the community. So 0:09:53.484 --> 0:09:55.284 I never envisioned it as like this is what I 0:09:55.324 --> 0:09:58.244 do now, I'm a restaurant tour I just I went 0:09:58.284 --> 0:10:01.204 into restaurants, you know, to participate in that kind of 0:10:01.324 --> 0:10:06.044 Brooklyn moment. But also because as opposed to this manufacturing 0:10:06.084 --> 0:10:10.564 company which totally defined me, restaurants are also things where 0:10:11.044 --> 0:10:13.564 you can open one and it's sort of just open right, 0:10:13.604 --> 0:10:15.764 whether you're actively managing or not, and then you can 0:10:15.804 --> 0:10:17.604 open a few. And I didn't want to be kind 0:10:17.604 --> 0:10:21.884 of under the weight of one huge crushing thing, so 0:10:22.364 --> 0:10:24.404 I opened them all as you know, separate businesses. I 0:10:24.444 --> 0:10:27.924 could rise or fall separately and accumulate over time. But 0:10:28.644 --> 0:10:30.524 I also really I really liked that about it, that 0:10:30.524 --> 0:10:32.604 you could own a restaurant without it being like you're 0:10:32.644 --> 0:10:34.444 in there nine to five every day. 0:10:35.204 --> 0:10:40.244 Yeah, well, some free publicity rootless still exists and it's amazing. 0:10:40.284 --> 0:10:44.444 It's one of my favorite restaurants. And I think, I 0:10:44.444 --> 0:10:47.924 think you did a wonderful job. How do you get 0:10:48.124 --> 0:10:52.284 someone to believe in you and finance help you finance 0:10:52.284 --> 0:10:55.204 a restaurant, help that get off the ground after you know, 0:10:55.364 --> 0:10:56.964 when you say you know I've had that, you know 0:10:57.004 --> 0:10:59.684 I've had a failed business. How do you actually how 0:10:59.684 --> 0:11:03.164 did you convince people to come on board? How did 0:11:03.164 --> 0:11:05.124 you craft that vision? And what are the pieces that 0:11:05.404 --> 0:11:09.164 kind of have to come together in order to open restaurant? One? Right, 0:11:09.444 --> 0:11:12.124 globe was successful, so I think that probably helped kind 0:11:12.124 --> 0:11:15.244 of restaurant two, three, four, et cetera. But that first 0:11:15.284 --> 0:11:16.684 that first step had us at work. 0:11:17.004 --> 0:11:17.484 It was hard. 0:11:17.564 --> 0:11:19.564 It's a big risk for everyone, right, for you and 0:11:19.604 --> 0:11:20.484 for your investors. 0:11:20.764 --> 0:11:23.804 Yeah, no, obviously in our restaurant, Like the first thing 0:11:23.844 --> 0:11:26.204 you say is like, you can lose all of this money, 0:11:26.244 --> 0:11:29.604 and statistically speaking, you will, and if it works, there's 0:11:29.644 --> 0:11:33.084 no like IPO, there's there's no acquisition. It's just that 0:11:33.124 --> 0:11:37.204 you'll receive dividends over time. So on balance, the risk 0:11:37.284 --> 0:11:41.644 reward profile in the restaurant industry is poor, right, It 0:11:41.764 --> 0:11:43.964 just so happens that you know, almost all of our 0:11:44.124 --> 0:11:46.244 restaurants have paid back and people have made quite a 0:11:46.284 --> 0:11:48.044 bit of money off them, and they're going to stay 0:11:48.084 --> 0:11:50.164 open for a long time. But at the time of 0:11:50.204 --> 0:11:53.684 the first one, yeah, I mean it was friends and 0:11:53.724 --> 0:11:57.964 family and you know, we really script by. It was 0:11:58.044 --> 0:12:02.204 we raised two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and we 0:12:02.604 --> 0:12:05.364 did a lot of work ourselves. We you know, gave 0:12:05.404 --> 0:12:09.284 out sweat equity for people working for free. I wasn't 0:12:09.324 --> 0:12:13.524 that asking for favors, because I do think that people 0:12:14.324 --> 0:12:19.004 saw me and saw the location. I basically had one 0:12:19.084 --> 0:12:21.524 twenty five thousand dollars line of credit left that I 0:12:21.564 --> 0:12:23.844 had gotten, you know, in two thousand and six or something, 0:12:23.884 --> 0:12:26.244 and I took eighteen thousand dollars out of it and 0:12:26.324 --> 0:12:30.404 put the down payment on the lease without any money raised. 0:12:30.844 --> 0:12:32.844 And so I could be like, hey, here's a space, 0:12:33.084 --> 0:12:36.124 look at this corner, look at this neighborhood. We're in Brooklyn. 0:12:36.164 --> 0:12:42.084 This is happening. And I think it's sort of it's 0:12:42.084 --> 0:12:44.004 difficult to raise money for because most of these things 0:12:44.044 --> 0:12:46.204 are not good investment. But to have an investment that 0:12:46.244 --> 0:12:48.964 you can actually kind of have breakfast, lunch and dinner 0:12:49.004 --> 0:12:52.364 in and like bring your friends and have that I 0:12:52.444 --> 0:12:58.924 own this restaurant moment is actually an extraordinary social benefit 0:12:58.964 --> 0:13:01.284 as opposed to the most kind of random, high risk 0:13:01.324 --> 0:13:05.564 investments that you would take, which are impersonal and likely 0:13:05.604 --> 0:13:10.084 you'll never visit the business, let alone experience it and 0:13:10.124 --> 0:13:13.604 have it add to your life. So in a way, 0:13:13.684 --> 0:13:17.764 it's it's not the best financially, but I think I 0:13:17.844 --> 0:13:22.484 was able to truthfully explain all of these intangible social 0:13:22.484 --> 0:13:25.604 emotional benefits of being a part of something that I 0:13:25.644 --> 0:13:26.484 think was very cool. 0:13:28.324 --> 0:13:31.284 Yeah, that's really interesting because you know, Nate and I 0:13:31.324 --> 0:13:34.164 talk a lot about kind of expected value of decisions 0:13:34.484 --> 0:13:37.084 on the show, right, and how how you think about 0:13:37.684 --> 0:13:41.244 taking risks right, positive expected value, negative expected value, And 0:13:41.364 --> 0:13:45.084 usually you're thinking about it in monetary terms, but there 0:13:45.124 --> 0:13:49.204 are situations where there are these intangibles that might you know, 0:13:49.284 --> 0:13:51.884 kind of add to the expected value, right, even though 0:13:51.924 --> 0:13:55.044 it's not even though the kind of monetary payout may 0:13:55.044 --> 0:13:57.524 not be as big. So I think what you're saying 0:13:57.524 --> 0:14:00.564 here is that in the restaurant business, like you're actually 0:14:00.844 --> 0:14:03.644 trying to appeal to those other things you're not going 0:14:03.684 --> 0:14:07.204 to It's not like you're going to pitch a meme coin. 0:14:07.324 --> 0:14:09.284 Or something like that. 0:14:09.524 --> 0:14:12.604 You're like, Okay, you'll double your money really quickly. You're saying, yeah, 0:14:12.604 --> 0:14:14.764 you know, this is a risk, but the rewards are 0:14:14.804 --> 0:14:18.164 actually much more personal, much more meaningful. It's much more 0:14:18.204 --> 0:14:22.644 of an investment kind of in in these I want 0:14:22.644 --> 0:14:26.204 to say intangibles, even though they're very tangible, right, but 0:14:26.484 --> 0:14:26.804 it is. 0:14:27.044 --> 0:14:29.724 Just non financial. They're just they're just non financial values. 0:14:30.084 --> 0:14:32.244 And I mean, you've just actually nailed a through line 0:14:32.244 --> 0:14:34.604 on all of the work I do, including the climate stuff, 0:14:34.604 --> 0:14:36.844 which is like, there's a risk. There's a risk that 0:14:37.204 --> 0:14:41.644 you don't do everything that you can in the moments 0:14:41.684 --> 0:14:43.644 that you knew that you should, and that you might 0:14:43.724 --> 0:14:46.084 look back on that and feel a certain type of 0:14:46.124 --> 0:14:48.684 way about your entire life. That's a risk, it's not 0:14:48.724 --> 0:14:51.564 a financial risk. I think this kind of talk made 0:14:51.564 --> 0:14:53.244 a lot more sense when people believe that they had 0:14:53.284 --> 0:14:56.404 souls and things. But I think this is one area 0:14:56.444 --> 0:15:00.004 where maybe like the kind of the philosophical like existentialist, 0:15:00.404 --> 0:15:03.724 you know, esthetic training is in all of the work, 0:15:03.804 --> 0:15:08.124 which is I get scared about like not taking opportunities 0:15:08.204 --> 0:15:10.764 and not doing things and not bringing things into the 0:15:10.764 --> 0:15:13.044 world that I believe should exist, and kind of carrying 0:15:13.084 --> 0:15:16.124 that emotional weight for the rest of my life. And 0:15:17.044 --> 0:15:20.204 you know, when it comes to people making decisions, people 0:15:20.204 --> 0:15:23.444 make decisions for non financial reasons, you know, mostly right 0:15:23.524 --> 0:15:25.404 like in their day to day life. But when you 0:15:25.404 --> 0:15:28.284 talk about it in a business, it kind of gets 0:15:29.004 --> 0:15:33.124 written out for some strange reason, and people wonder why they, 0:15:33.244 --> 0:15:36.244 you know, are dissociated and unhappy. There's this whole ledger 0:15:36.524 --> 0:15:40.204 that we should be thinking a lot more about. So 0:15:40.324 --> 0:15:42.484 that's sort of I mean, it's that's why I think 0:15:42.484 --> 0:15:44.764 these are cool investments, is because the idea that you 0:15:44.764 --> 0:15:47.924 could you know, walk into one and you know, experience 0:15:47.924 --> 0:15:51.164 it and let alone if it's like a climate positive 0:15:51.204 --> 0:15:53.844 or mission aligned in some other way. Nobody invests in 0:15:53.884 --> 0:15:56.244 a restaurant for financial reasons. It's cause like you live there, 0:15:56.364 --> 0:15:58.084 or you believe in the chef, or you want to 0:15:58.564 --> 0:16:01.004 you know, flex to some group of people that you're 0:16:01.044 --> 0:16:06.044 like a restaurant owner independent alas raise money as well. Yeah, 0:16:06.284 --> 0:16:09.844 I am the owner, right, Yeah, it's I mean, it's 0:16:09.884 --> 0:16:12.004 kind of a nice thing, which is why people like 0:16:12.044 --> 0:16:13.724 a lot of whom have like unlimited me and it's 0:16:13.764 --> 0:16:16.044 like some of them are like randomly investing in restaurants. 0:16:16.644 --> 0:16:19.924 Yeah, yeah, I know, I think that that's really interesting. 0:16:19.924 --> 0:16:22.124 And there's one more thing that you actually just mentioned, 0:16:22.484 --> 0:16:24.924 which we don't talk a lot about, but I think 0:16:24.964 --> 0:16:28.964 it's an important kind of decision heuristic, if you will, 0:16:29.644 --> 0:16:32.524 that people don't think enough about, which is the risk 0:16:32.564 --> 0:16:36.164 of regret, right, the risk of kind of the path 0:16:36.404 --> 0:16:38.844 not taken? And how much are you going to regret 0:16:38.844 --> 0:16:41.124 what you didn't do versus what you did do? And 0:16:41.204 --> 0:16:44.244 it seems like in your case, when you weigh those two, 0:16:44.364 --> 0:16:47.284 what you didn't do, you know is weighed on you 0:16:47.604 --> 0:16:50.804 much more heavily, and so you are probably programmed kind 0:16:50.804 --> 0:16:52.284 of against the status quo bias. 0:16:52.364 --> 0:16:52.484 Right. 0:16:52.524 --> 0:16:54.564 So many people they just have inertia and they're like 0:16:55.004 --> 0:16:57.244 it's fine, Like I just I don't want to I 0:16:57.244 --> 0:16:59.044 don't want to act because I don't want to rock 0:16:59.084 --> 0:17:01.044 the boat. And it seems like for you, what you're 0:17:01.084 --> 0:17:03.564 saying is no, like the risk that I run by 0:17:03.604 --> 0:17:06.004 not rocking the boat is actually much higher. 0:17:06.964 --> 0:17:08.924 Yeah. I mean this is described in a lot of 0:17:08.964 --> 0:17:11.564 different ways. Is like you know, writers that don't write things. 0:17:11.884 --> 0:17:13.764 It goes from you know, being this like heavenly gift 0:17:13.764 --> 0:17:18.244 to this like hellish burden. I certainly, you know, like 0:17:18.324 --> 0:17:21.684 wake up and fall asleep every day with the dread 0:17:21.724 --> 0:17:23.964 and not of like whatever I'm working on emails they 0:17:23.964 --> 0:17:26.244 haven't received, but things that I haven't finished or started 0:17:26.324 --> 0:17:30.324 one hundred percent. And I think, you know, probably good 0:17:30.324 --> 0:17:34.204 that not everybody is programmed that way. But I think 0:17:34.244 --> 0:17:37.724 I also I also have to control myself because you know, 0:17:37.764 --> 0:17:41.564 I make really bad investment decisions as well, just because 0:17:41.684 --> 0:17:46.484 I like these kind of heroic yellow kind of bets. 0:17:46.524 --> 0:17:50.764 I tend to invest in, like, you know, pro social things. 0:17:50.884 --> 0:17:54.324 I apply non financial criteria to things that should be 0:17:54.804 --> 0:17:57.444 strictly financial, and I know that that's you know, kind 0:17:57.444 --> 0:17:59.484 of dumb, and I'm trying to get better at it, 0:17:59.764 --> 0:18:02.044 and you know, outsource the decisions that I continue to 0:18:02.084 --> 0:18:06.084 make poorly. But all of the work on effective forecasting, 0:18:06.684 --> 0:18:10.284 the research says that no matter how how many times 0:18:10.844 --> 0:18:14.404 we receive the information, we always get it wrong how 0:18:14.524 --> 0:18:17.244 happy or sad we're going to be about a particular thing. 0:18:17.324 --> 0:18:19.684 Like if you ask somebody like, how happy will you 0:18:19.724 --> 0:18:21.004 be on a scale from one to ten if your 0:18:21.044 --> 0:18:23.364 team wins a Super Bowl? Somebody says ten. Then you 0:18:23.404 --> 0:18:25.724 ask them afterwards and they're like, it's a seven, and 0:18:25.724 --> 0:18:27.164 then you ask them again next year and they say 0:18:27.204 --> 0:18:29.524 it's a ten. Like there's certain things like this that 0:18:29.524 --> 0:18:32.804 we that we don't learn, right, So kind of trying 0:18:32.844 --> 0:18:36.244 to work within my own you know, cognitive biases when 0:18:36.244 --> 0:18:39.244 it comes to investment decisions and or managing my business. 0:18:39.284 --> 0:18:43.124 Risk is something that I try to create rules around. 0:18:43.284 --> 0:18:47.564 But you know, with mixed success, which is why I 0:18:47.604 --> 0:18:50.044 try to start a lot of different things because I 0:18:50.044 --> 0:18:51.844 know I'm going to screw one of them up, just 0:18:51.884 --> 0:18:53.164 like out of boredom one day. 0:18:53.924 --> 0:18:57.324 So well, that's that's a high level of self awareness 0:18:57.324 --> 0:18:59.884 and I applaug you for that. But you know, having 0:19:00.004 --> 0:19:03.684 rules is actually a really good way around these effective 0:19:03.684 --> 0:19:07.004 forecasting errors, and that is a really that is a 0:19:07.044 --> 0:19:10.204 really interesting that's an interesting bias as well. Yeah, we 0:19:10.244 --> 0:19:13.084 are very bad at knowing what our future self is 0:19:13.084 --> 0:19:16.364 going to feel like will want you know, just we're 0:19:16.404 --> 0:19:19.364 bad at making decisions for our future self and very 0:19:19.844 --> 0:19:22.324 we just we take our current self and we project 0:19:22.324 --> 0:19:24.444 ourselves into the future, not realizing you're going to be 0:19:24.444 --> 0:19:27.524 a different person. It's a different time. It's incredibly difficult. Yeah, 0:19:27.524 --> 0:19:32.644 it's incredibly difficult to learn we're going to take a 0:19:32.684 --> 0:19:47.964 quick break and when we return Henry's take on regret. So, 0:19:48.084 --> 0:19:51.324 after Rugolo was a success, you opened a number of 0:19:51.364 --> 0:19:55.204 other restaurants that are still open to this day. You 0:19:55.284 --> 0:19:57.724 did have some Actually, one of the things that I 0:19:57.764 --> 0:20:00.404 find really interesting is you're not afraid to pivot. So 0:20:00.484 --> 0:20:04.564 I remember when you open Meta, which is now Rodora, right, 0:20:05.884 --> 0:20:08.964 and so the initial concept, you know, you were very 0:20:08.964 --> 0:20:12.004 good at say this isn't working and we're going to 0:20:12.084 --> 0:20:14.124 We're going to pivot to this, And as far as 0:20:14.164 --> 0:20:16.004 I could tell, that was also the moment where you 0:20:16.044 --> 0:20:19.484 pivoted to kind of a more environmentally conscious approach to 0:20:19.604 --> 0:20:22.604 the restaurant business. Can you talk us through kind of 0:20:22.644 --> 0:20:26.124 that that process of changing Meta into what it is 0:20:26.124 --> 0:20:29.724 today and kind of your general approach now to actually 0:20:30.084 --> 0:20:33.284 marrying some of these goals of climate activism and kind 0:20:33.284 --> 0:20:36.964 of knowing what's happening to our world with a consumption 0:20:37.084 --> 0:20:38.644 business like the restaurant business. 0:20:39.124 --> 0:20:46.204 Yeah, I mean the initial twist was I was visited 0:20:46.244 --> 0:20:50.004 by this guy, Anthony Mian who started Mission Chinese with 0:20:50.084 --> 0:20:54.684 Danny Boyen, and he was getting into his nonprofit called 0:20:55.044 --> 0:20:59.764 Zero Foodprint, and he said to me, you know, Henry, 0:20:59.844 --> 0:21:02.684 did you know that food is responsible for twenty five 0:21:02.684 --> 0:21:04.764 to thirty percent of global emissions. I was like, now, 0:21:04.764 --> 0:21:07.124 I did not realize I was running a coal power 0:21:07.124 --> 0:21:10.164 plant for fun, you know, because I, you know, like 0:21:10.164 --> 0:21:12.404 to hang out with friends and eat and drink. That's 0:21:12.524 --> 0:21:15.004 that's not great news. And he was like, yeah, and 0:21:15.084 --> 0:21:17.764 did you know that like five of the top ten 0:21:17.884 --> 0:21:20.884 most impactful policy changes that can be made to a 0:21:21.124 --> 0:21:23.484 climate catastrophe have to do with food and beverage. Like, 0:21:23.564 --> 0:21:25.884 isn't that awesome that we get to work on this? 0:21:26.564 --> 0:21:29.724 And it really appealed to my sense of, you know 0:21:30.084 --> 0:21:34.964 whatever agency individualism, the reason that I would assume everybody 0:21:35.044 --> 0:21:38.084 becomes an entrepreneur, right because you it's not like the 0:21:38.084 --> 0:21:41.844 most straightforward way to make money, so you have to 0:21:41.964 --> 0:21:45.644 kind of again have these like non financial reasons for 0:21:46.204 --> 0:21:49.564 doing it, whether you know, running toward or running from. 0:21:50.524 --> 0:21:53.884 And I think the big one for me was this 0:21:54.004 --> 0:21:56.564 was an opportunity for me to you know, when you 0:21:56.604 --> 0:21:58.044 get the call in the middle of the night and 0:21:58.044 --> 0:22:00.844 then the pipe breaks and you call the plumber and 0:22:00.884 --> 0:22:03.364 you're just like, I hate my life, it's sort of 0:22:03.364 --> 0:22:06.964 a reason to actually tap into something deeper and just 0:22:06.964 --> 0:22:08.604 like like what you see in the mirror and put 0:22:08.684 --> 0:22:11.764 up with the petty and dignities of running a restaurant 0:22:11.804 --> 0:22:14.724 and being an entrepreneur. Which is why it's so shocking 0:22:14.724 --> 0:22:17.204 to me that so few restauranteurs have have taken on 0:22:17.284 --> 0:22:21.244 this sustainability mantles. It's because it's it's an opportunity to 0:22:21.244 --> 0:22:24.924 give your work meaning in a much broader kind of 0:22:25.844 --> 0:22:31.084 local community or global context. It's an opportunity to give 0:22:31.164 --> 0:22:32.764 you know, all the people that work for you, like 0:22:33.924 --> 0:22:36.924 an exciting extra reason to to come to work. And 0:22:36.964 --> 0:22:39.004 then there are all these kind of narrow business reasons 0:22:39.004 --> 0:22:42.124 for doing it, like retaining people. But yeah, he sort 0:22:42.124 --> 0:22:45.004 of once you told me that, I couldn't look away 0:22:45.124 --> 0:22:48.364 from the fact that you know, basically, if you're working 0:22:48.364 --> 0:22:51.524 in food, you either need to be for me. It 0:22:51.564 --> 0:22:53.724 was like, we either need to work on this actively 0:22:53.804 --> 0:22:56.484 or we need to close because what we're doing is harmful, 0:22:57.724 --> 0:23:01.004 and it's harmful in a way that is that weighed 0:23:01.164 --> 0:23:03.964 on me because you know, we all have carbon footprints, 0:23:03.964 --> 0:23:08.164 but restaurants carbon footprints are significant, right and and if 0:23:08.204 --> 0:23:10.724 you if you kind of of look at the data 0:23:11.564 --> 0:23:14.244 of you know, the social cost of that into the future, 0:23:14.284 --> 0:23:17.924 and you think about the harm that you can cause 0:23:18.044 --> 0:23:20.844 by doing nothing other than business as usual. It was 0:23:20.884 --> 0:23:24.124 it was too much for me to kind of bear 0:23:24.164 --> 0:23:28.684 psychologically flip side, you know, actually kind of pivoting to 0:23:28.764 --> 0:23:32.364 being a bit more proactive about you know, creating a 0:23:32.404 --> 0:23:37.844 trash free restaurant, pivoting toward you know, scope through carbon 0:23:37.884 --> 0:23:41.084 neutral operations. Suddenly, this is something that gave me energy 0:23:41.124 --> 0:23:43.924 and made me feel like, yeah, obviously we're a small 0:23:43.964 --> 0:23:46.684 restaurant group, but in our sphere of influence, we can 0:23:46.884 --> 0:23:50.324 show a way of doing something, not just like you know, 0:23:50.444 --> 0:23:52.964 lying there helpless and saying like, oh, it's so difficult 0:23:52.964 --> 0:23:56.764 to be a restaurant owner and doing nothing. So that 0:23:56.964 --> 0:24:00.284 felt really good to me. And you know, I'm not 0:24:00.324 --> 0:24:04.404 saying it was exclusively for selfish reasons, but I do 0:24:04.484 --> 0:24:07.084 think participating in this broader conversation has given me a 0:24:07.084 --> 0:24:12.684 lot of just like personal joy and satisfaction in the 0:24:13.044 --> 0:24:15.084 work that I do, which can be really annoying. And 0:24:15.764 --> 0:24:17.524 I hope it would be a template for more people 0:24:17.604 --> 0:24:20.644 kind of jumping on board. But you know, sustainability in 0:24:20.684 --> 0:24:23.604 restaurants is not really a thing unfortunately for them. 0:24:23.724 --> 0:24:27.324 Yeah, so so talk us through a little bit about 0:24:27.364 --> 0:24:30.044 what that decision process looks like, right when you're opening 0:24:30.124 --> 0:24:32.684 a new restaurant, or when when you kind of pivoted 0:24:33.604 --> 0:24:37.804 to Redore for that first trial. What does it look 0:24:37.924 --> 0:24:41.284 like when you're making those decisions, Because obviously you're still 0:24:41.324 --> 0:24:43.844 looking to run a profitable business, so you have so 0:24:43.924 --> 0:24:46.404 many you now have so many different needs, right, you 0:24:46.404 --> 0:24:48.044 need to you need to make a profit, right for 0:24:48.284 --> 0:24:50.484 for you and for your investors. You need people to 0:24:50.564 --> 0:24:52.604 enjoy the food and to enjoy the restaurant, and you 0:24:52.684 --> 0:24:55.764 need to kind of have that beyond point. And now 0:24:55.804 --> 0:24:57.724 you're also saying, Okay, we're not going to have a 0:24:57.764 --> 0:25:00.084 carbon footprint, we're going to be zero waste, we're going 0:25:00.124 --> 0:25:02.284 to have all of these other things going on. How 0:25:02.324 --> 0:25:05.364 does that decision calculus look like? How do you how 0:25:05.404 --> 0:25:07.244 do you go through that process? How do you make 0:25:07.284 --> 0:25:11.484 it a reality? And how people have everyone be happy? 0:25:12.364 --> 0:25:14.684 Well, it's very challenging because a restaurant is already a 0:25:14.764 --> 0:25:17.004 massive compromise between like the front of house, the back 0:25:17.044 --> 0:25:20.484 of house, you know, the operations, the guest experience, the 0:25:21.204 --> 0:25:25.604 you know, return to investors. How easy or difficult it 0:25:25.644 --> 0:25:28.324 is to work there. You know, very few people get 0:25:28.324 --> 0:25:32.484 into the restaurant world in order to like work on sustainability. Right, 0:25:32.564 --> 0:25:37.804 So now we're saying, okay, whereas you know, fifteen years ago, 0:25:37.924 --> 0:25:39.764 anybody who knows the LIB was living in New York 0:25:39.844 --> 0:25:42.204 knows like you were just outside of restaurants, you see 0:25:42.244 --> 0:25:46.124 like hundreds of like black trash bags just like filled 0:25:46.164 --> 0:25:48.764 with mostly recycling and compass. Because if you think about 0:25:48.764 --> 0:25:52.044 when a restaurant buys, it is like mostly comes in cardboard, 0:25:52.124 --> 0:25:55.484 comes in, you know, plastic or whatever, and it's mostly food. 0:25:55.564 --> 0:25:58.404 It's not actually non recyclable trash that people were putting 0:25:58.404 --> 0:26:01.164 in the trash. So all these people that are kind 0:26:01.164 --> 0:26:02.884 of used to just having a trash bin, it's like, 0:26:02.884 --> 0:26:04.884 all right, now you're going to have three. You know, 0:26:04.964 --> 0:26:07.004 there's like trash and I don't really know what you 0:26:07.044 --> 0:26:09.324 need to put in there in most of our ust 0:26:09.404 --> 0:26:13.084 restaurants because it is mostly recycling and composts recycling and compost. 0:26:13.604 --> 0:26:14.964 And they look at me as this kind of like 0:26:15.004 --> 0:26:18.244 out of touch, you know, business owner who's not like 0:26:18.324 --> 0:26:21.084 worked you know, in a restaurant alongside them, and they're like, 0:26:21.124 --> 0:26:24.684 all right, so you're going to take our jobs, which 0:26:24.724 --> 0:26:28.844 are extremely difficult, and you're going to make them more difficult. 0:26:29.484 --> 0:26:33.964 And also in the world of restaurants, what's seen as 0:26:34.044 --> 0:26:36.444 quality is basically speed, right, So if you order an 0:26:36.524 --> 0:26:39.564 espresso and it comes out in like thirty seconds, you're like, Wow, 0:26:39.564 --> 0:26:45.004 the spaces has this incredible service and sustainable practices within 0:26:45.044 --> 0:26:48.164 the restaurant do slow things down. You're washing recycling, you know, 0:26:48.204 --> 0:26:50.444 you're like, which bind do I put this in? And 0:26:50.524 --> 0:26:53.444 so you are operating, you know, either with more staff 0:26:53.564 --> 0:26:56.524 or staff who are more committed and operating more efficiently. 0:26:56.844 --> 0:26:59.524 So it does it does hurt profits and or you 0:26:59.524 --> 0:27:02.884 pass it on to the guests. The problem is people 0:27:02.964 --> 0:27:06.364 don't really care on the consumer side. They don't put 0:27:06.364 --> 0:27:10.364 a value on us being like scope through a carbon 0:27:10.364 --> 0:27:12.844 neutral They're like, what does that even mean? And then 0:27:12.884 --> 0:27:14.244 you explain it to them and they really don't know 0:27:14.284 --> 0:27:18.804 what it means. And Redora being you know, trash free 0:27:19.564 --> 0:27:22.564 is so extreme. There are there are only a few 0:27:22.604 --> 0:27:25.364 like trash free restaurants in the world. And we learned 0:27:25.364 --> 0:27:27.124 about how to do this from a few you know, 0:27:27.164 --> 0:27:30.164 dear friends chef Doug McMaster who runs Silo in London 0:27:30.204 --> 0:27:33.324 and Lauren Singer who's many things, but when I met her, 0:27:33.364 --> 0:27:36.444 she was kind of a zero waste sustainability influencer and 0:27:36.644 --> 0:27:38.524 running this company of trash is for Tosters and then 0:27:38.564 --> 0:27:41.444 package Free, and they sort of showed us how to 0:27:41.524 --> 0:27:44.804 operate without a trash bin. But it's almost like it 0:27:44.844 --> 0:27:47.924 really is almost like a performative level of sustainability that 0:27:48.004 --> 0:27:50.644 I think can be off putting for people. So we 0:27:50.764 --> 0:27:54.204 do all these things, but I think people come to 0:27:54.244 --> 0:27:56.284 Redora because it's cool and the wine is good, and 0:27:56.284 --> 0:27:59.124 it's a nice design and it's like an amazing location 0:27:59.204 --> 0:28:01.604 in four Green, two blocks from the park. You know, 0:28:01.644 --> 0:28:03.484 it's not because it's sustainable. 0:28:04.284 --> 0:28:07.564 Yeah. I think you're very you know, every single restaurant 0:28:07.564 --> 0:28:10.004 that you open, you're very good at trying to figure 0:28:10.044 --> 0:28:13.284 out what's the identity of this restaurant is. You know, 0:28:13.324 --> 0:28:14.884 like on a E. S which is one of your 0:28:14.924 --> 0:28:17.404 more recent restaurants, you have it as like a book 0:28:17.444 --> 0:28:19.684 bar right in a book space and an event space. 0:28:20.284 --> 0:28:23.004 So I think it's very interesting to see how you're 0:28:23.124 --> 0:28:25.004 you're trying to marry these things and how you are 0:28:25.044 --> 0:28:27.124 looking at risk and you are in a way you're 0:28:27.164 --> 0:28:31.324 mitigating the risk right by kind of loading the loading 0:28:31.364 --> 0:28:33.924 the dice on the other side, and saying, yes, I'm 0:28:33.924 --> 0:28:36.444 taking all these risks with the climate stuff. Yes, it's 0:28:36.484 --> 0:28:38.284 not going to be as profitable for those reasons, but 0:28:38.484 --> 0:28:40.924 I'm going to ensure that people like it more because 0:28:41.204 --> 0:28:44.044 there is a unique identifier that's going to kind of 0:28:44.044 --> 0:28:46.084 make people come here, even though it might be a 0:28:46.124 --> 0:28:49.444 little slower, even though we might have to jump through 0:28:49.484 --> 0:28:50.444 a few more hurdles. 0:28:50.764 --> 0:28:53.884 Is that fair? Yeah, I think I think that's fair. 0:28:53.924 --> 0:28:57.364 You know, we always try to have a concept for 0:28:57.404 --> 0:29:00.884 a particular community or a particular reason. Meta was kind 0:29:00.924 --> 0:29:03.844 of bringing the style of you know, open fire cooking 0:29:03.964 --> 0:29:06.724 and Redora. It was like, okay, like first like trash 0:29:06.764 --> 0:29:09.924 free restaurant in New York, and then June was the 0:29:09.964 --> 0:29:14.524 first natural wine bar in Brooklyn, you know, quickly followed 0:29:14.564 --> 0:29:17.284 by the Four Horsemen, and now there's like again like 0:29:17.324 --> 0:29:22.524 five thousand, you know, a nice wine bar with candles 0:29:22.604 --> 0:29:27.124 and bookshelves of you know, vintage feminist erotica for sale. 0:29:27.324 --> 0:29:30.444 Is like another vibe that I just like wanted to 0:29:30.524 --> 0:29:34.124 have somewhere, you know, nearby that the one could visit 0:29:34.204 --> 0:29:36.444 and you know, lo and behold, we're having all of 0:29:36.444 --> 0:29:39.884 these amazing poetry readings where people are like matching like 0:29:40.044 --> 0:29:44.404 Catullus to like a particular wine and like Lorca, and 0:29:44.924 --> 0:29:45.684 people are kind. 0:29:45.524 --> 0:29:48.044 Of having that your aesthetics is coming back. 0:29:49.084 --> 0:29:52.044 Yeah, it's squeezed in you know, here and there. But 0:29:52.444 --> 0:29:55.724 I think, like from a management perspective also, I would 0:29:55.764 --> 0:29:59.564 say the way that I managed Risks by kind of 0:29:59.564 --> 0:30:02.004 trying to constantly improve quality and make sure that we're 0:30:02.004 --> 0:30:04.324 being competitive as I focus on like the very very 0:30:04.364 --> 0:30:07.364 macro like okay, like this does this location makes sense? 0:30:08.444 --> 0:30:11.404 Is a lease owner a do people actually care about 0:30:11.404 --> 0:30:14.684 the screen concept at all? And then the very very 0:30:14.764 --> 0:30:17.804 micro like you know what is like the fonts on 0:30:17.844 --> 0:30:21.604 the menu, the thousand little details that actually create the 0:30:21.644 --> 0:30:25.204 guest experience because you know, and people kind of sometimes 0:30:25.244 --> 0:30:27.004 don't understand. They're like I thought you were kind of 0:30:27.044 --> 0:30:29.804 like the finance like big picture guy, and you're kind 0:30:29.804 --> 0:30:32.804 of going in and you know you want to like 0:30:33.124 --> 0:30:36.964 switch the candles out. Why are you so annoying? But 0:30:37.604 --> 0:30:40.084 I think like focusing like as an owner, focusing on 0:30:40.604 --> 0:30:42.764 because I'm a guest in my own restaurants, right and 0:30:42.924 --> 0:30:46.444 I want to kind of like relentlessly bring the guest 0:30:46.524 --> 0:30:50.284 experience back to the center of what our priorities are 0:30:50.324 --> 0:30:52.284 and what we're trying to achieve, because there's a lot 0:30:52.284 --> 0:30:54.484 of other things that people are trying to achieve, Like 0:30:54.524 --> 0:30:59.084 bartenders are trying to try out new exciting things, you know, 0:30:59.204 --> 0:31:01.324 brought in by like liquor apps that they're friends with. 0:31:01.484 --> 0:31:04.924 Chefs are trying to make their name. There's a lot 0:31:04.924 --> 0:31:09.404 of incentives that kind of pull people away from guests 0:31:09.484 --> 0:31:12.004 experience in restaurants, which is why sometimes you'll go to 0:31:12.084 --> 0:31:14.444 a restaurant it just won't be as good as like 0:31:14.484 --> 0:31:17.204 a home cooked meal, right, which which is just it's 0:31:17.204 --> 0:31:20.724 actually quite straightforward to do, but you constantly have to 0:31:20.764 --> 0:31:24.244 be refocusing on the guests and their enjoyment and their 0:31:24.324 --> 0:31:28.964 enjoyment with like again themselves, friends, family, versus the things 0:31:29.004 --> 0:31:30.724 that will happen when you take your eye off the 0:31:30.764 --> 0:31:36.044 ball that make a place increasingly not guest friendly when 0:31:36.044 --> 0:31:39.484 it comes to reservation policies or hours or like not 0:31:39.604 --> 0:31:44.364 seating partial parties. These are things that kind of I 0:31:44.404 --> 0:31:45.604 have to regularly correct. 0:31:46.364 --> 0:31:49.404 Yeah, no, that makes sense. I do want to ask 0:31:49.444 --> 0:31:52.884 about kind of one other broader question when it comes 0:31:52.884 --> 0:31:55.844 to risks. So obviously things can happen that no one 0:31:55.884 --> 0:32:00.404 could have foreseen, like COVID and I'm very curious none 0:32:00.444 --> 0:32:03.484 of your restaurants closed during COVID and you actually kind 0:32:03.484 --> 0:32:06.484 of continue you were successful, right, and this was a 0:32:06.524 --> 0:32:11.164 time where like restaurants were decimated. How did you approach 0:32:11.364 --> 0:32:14.404 something which was a new kind of risk environment, new challenge? 0:32:14.644 --> 0:32:17.404 How did you think about it? And you know, ultimately, 0:32:17.684 --> 0:32:20.724 how did you survive and thrive during a time that 0:32:20.804 --> 0:32:23.444 was so difficult for so many for so many businesses. 0:32:24.964 --> 0:32:32.484 Yeah, that's well, I think this is where my failure 0:32:34.644 --> 0:32:39.244 maybe came in handy. I think a lot of people 0:32:39.764 --> 0:32:43.844 thought that, you know, the cavalry was coming and you know, 0:32:43.884 --> 0:32:46.804 people just stop paying run And a lot of restaurant 0:32:46.804 --> 0:32:49.764 owners were like, well, they have to bail us out. 0:32:49.884 --> 0:32:52.764 And you know, having lived through the Great Recession, having 0:32:52.804 --> 0:32:56.124 like my business destroyed and kind of like my livelihood destroyed, 0:32:56.204 --> 0:32:58.324 I was just like, no, they don't, like we're you know, 0:32:58.364 --> 0:33:01.444 we're entrepreneurs. Like we're like out here swinging for the 0:33:01.524 --> 0:33:04.004 fences for like a great riches in glory. Like we 0:33:04.084 --> 0:33:08.924 don't deserve a bailout, guys. And like so I behaved 0:33:08.924 --> 0:33:13.564 as though no one was coming. So like you know, Rukula, 0:33:13.684 --> 0:33:15.924 there was you know, the mandate to close on Monday 0:33:16.004 --> 0:33:18.204 or whatever, and by Monday night we were, you know, 0:33:18.284 --> 0:33:23.244 doing takeout, which was allowed. Redora, we pivoted to being 0:33:23.604 --> 0:33:27.044 you know, a general goods store selling like paper, towels, 0:33:27.084 --> 0:33:31.844 toilet paper, wine, you know whatever, all of these things, 0:33:31.924 --> 0:33:34.844 trying to be like a local shop for the community. 0:33:34.884 --> 0:33:39.164 We did the same thing at June. I pivoted very 0:33:39.444 --> 0:33:44.204 very quickly. I guess is I I'm used to slash 0:33:44.284 --> 0:33:49.404 operate well in a quickly changing environment. I get excited 0:33:49.444 --> 0:33:54.924 by things, by by challenges, and I think that, you know, 0:33:54.964 --> 0:33:56.764 it's just like, okay, what is what needs to be 0:33:56.804 --> 0:34:00.684 done in these situations? And so then when the money 0:34:00.764 --> 0:34:03.964 came right like the two rounds of p PAP, the 0:34:04.164 --> 0:34:08.644 IDL Loans, Restaurant Revitalization Fund, I was just like what 0:34:08.804 --> 0:34:13.004 the I was so unexpected, And so it was just 0:34:13.084 --> 0:34:18.924 kind of on top of businesses that were operating at 0:34:19.004 --> 0:34:23.124 break even or better. I Meanridora, we weren't eligible for 0:34:23.164 --> 0:34:25.044 our F because we made more money of the pandemic 0:34:25.084 --> 0:34:28.644 than we made the year before. So I was sort 0:34:28.684 --> 0:34:31.204 of I saw a lot of like very close friends 0:34:31.204 --> 0:34:35.964 of mine be pretty overwhelmed by by the extent of 0:34:36.004 --> 0:34:40.124 the change extent of the risk, and you know, to 0:34:40.164 --> 0:34:42.684 another degree, I realized that I was I had also 0:34:42.804 --> 0:34:44.964 my thesis of like don't put your all year eggs 0:34:45.004 --> 0:34:48.124 in one basket, had sort of once again been challenged 0:34:48.164 --> 0:34:51.124 by putting all of my eggs in one industry, which 0:34:51.284 --> 0:34:54.644 was you know, highly susceptible. And I just I just 0:34:54.644 --> 0:34:57.004 didn't want to fail again. I was too old and just, 0:34:58.684 --> 0:35:02.804 and so we we came out a lot stronger. And 0:35:02.844 --> 0:35:04.844 I think that I think a lot of people did. 0:35:06.564 --> 0:35:08.604 I do think there's a massive debt overhang. I think 0:35:08.604 --> 0:35:10.124 that a lot of a lot of things happened in 0:35:10.164 --> 0:35:12.524 the pandemic where if you if you fired your entire stuff, 0:35:12.524 --> 0:35:15.964 if you didn't pivot to figure out another thing for 0:35:16.044 --> 0:35:17.924 people to do, a lot of these people left New 0:35:18.004 --> 0:35:22.084 York and you had to rehire everybody at on the 0:35:22.084 --> 0:35:24.524 same day that like thousands of other restaurants were rehiring. 0:35:24.524 --> 0:35:28.964 And I don't think people realize how much debt was 0:35:28.964 --> 0:35:32.964 actually handed out that kind of fueled this resurgence. That 0:35:33.044 --> 0:35:35.804 debt is still there, right like, these loans are still 0:35:35.804 --> 0:35:39.884 out there for a lot of these businesses, and I 0:35:39.924 --> 0:35:41.764 don't know, maybe some people think it's going to be forgiven, 0:35:41.804 --> 0:35:46.484 but I don't. So just because you don't expect anything, 0:35:46.804 --> 0:35:49.044 I don't know, I know, I know, no one's uh 0:35:50.244 --> 0:35:52.284 you know, and you know, it just seems like a 0:35:52.284 --> 0:35:56.044 little bit of attachment theory. I'm definitely the kind of uh, 0:35:56.924 --> 0:35:58.804 do you know this experiment where there's like the kid 0:35:58.964 --> 0:36:01.844 and the parent leaves and like the stranger comes back, 0:36:02.044 --> 0:36:03.684 and like you can tell you if you're like anxious, 0:36:03.724 --> 0:36:06.684 avoidant whatever. Like I'm definitely like the kid that just 0:36:06.764 --> 0:36:08.804 was like, Okay, I guess this is what we're doing now, 0:36:08.964 --> 0:36:09.324 you know. 0:36:09.524 --> 0:36:09.684 And. 0:36:11.604 --> 0:36:16.964 That, just I guess is a superpower in times where 0:36:17.644 --> 0:36:19.644 you know, a lot is changing, and I think it's 0:36:19.884 --> 0:36:23.844 it's a massive liability in times where things are smooth 0:36:23.884 --> 0:36:28.044 and boring, because you know, I have a tendency, certainly 0:36:28.044 --> 0:36:30.924 in my own personal investments to try to make things 0:36:31.404 --> 0:36:35.604 interesting and like just just doing dumb stuff like buying 0:36:35.604 --> 0:36:37.924 options in like renewable companies when I should be buying 0:36:37.964 --> 0:36:44.084 stocks and whatever. Just I have, I know this about myself, 0:36:44.324 --> 0:36:47.364 and so I've tried to try to make the restaurants 0:36:47.364 --> 0:36:49.444 interesting enough so that I can do like really really 0:36:49.484 --> 0:36:50.444 boring investments. 0:36:56.004 --> 0:36:58.604 After the break, Henry talks about managing risk in his 0:36:58.684 --> 0:36:59.484 personal life. 0:37:12.684 --> 0:37:14.404 I also wanted to tell you, like when it comes 0:37:14.444 --> 0:37:17.124 to personal things, I'm incredibly risk averse. Like I just 0:37:17.164 --> 0:37:21.764 had another child, you know, five thank you, five days ago, 0:37:21.964 --> 0:37:26.244 and so a little a little bit underslept. But you know, 0:37:26.284 --> 0:37:31.124 my partner was on like antibiotics and this sleeping medication 0:37:32.204 --> 0:37:36.084 unism throughout it, and everything was everything was saying like 0:37:36.084 --> 0:37:39.604 this is totally fine, there's nothing wrong. But I did 0:37:39.644 --> 0:37:41.244 like more research and I was like, okay, it's this 0:37:41.324 --> 0:37:44.404 hermiasin Like there actually are these recent Naah papers where 0:37:44.804 --> 0:37:48.084 if you like have a boy, there is like this 0:37:48.244 --> 0:37:53.564 number of potential genetic defects, and I'm like, great, I 0:37:53.604 --> 0:37:56.124 have a girl, and there are these other things that 0:37:56.164 --> 0:37:58.884 could you know, could potentially happen that like if you 0:37:58.924 --> 0:38:00.644 took it in the first or the third trimester, but 0:38:00.724 --> 0:38:03.204 she took it in the second. And so I'm asking 0:38:03.244 --> 0:38:06.324 these the nurses these questions and they're just like you 0:38:06.564 --> 0:38:10.604 are psychotic, Like your baby is completely fine. I'm like, look, 0:38:10.644 --> 0:38:13.404 I'm just trying to gather information so that if like X, 0:38:13.484 --> 0:38:16.404 Y or Z happens in two weeks, as it said 0:38:16.444 --> 0:38:19.644 it might in the study, you know, like if something 0:38:19.644 --> 0:38:21.684 went from a point one percent chance to a one 0:38:21.764 --> 0:38:26.524 percent chance. I want to know, because, like anything happening 0:38:26.524 --> 0:38:30.764 in the first month of life is existential, and I 0:38:30.804 --> 0:38:32.924 think I can't remember if this is anything that we've 0:38:32.964 --> 0:38:35.244 ever talked about, but just like on a personal level, 0:38:35.284 --> 0:38:37.364 I lost my mom to an accident at a very 0:38:37.404 --> 0:38:42.484 young age, and so these kind of lowering existential risk 0:38:43.804 --> 0:38:47.124 from like five percent to one percent two point five percent. 0:38:47.524 --> 0:38:51.764 I also am constantly circling around my restaurants and people 0:38:51.764 --> 0:38:55.364 in my life trying to do this for like early screenings, 0:38:55.484 --> 0:39:01.244 like anything to remove like the worst outcomes of like 0:39:01.364 --> 0:39:04.684 total failure. And so that's also why I think my 0:39:04.804 --> 0:39:09.804 businesses sort of tend to survive, is I don't let 0:39:09.844 --> 0:39:13.004 them die like even when they should. Yeah, if that 0:39:13.044 --> 0:39:14.124 makes sense, I. 0:39:14.164 --> 0:39:18.164 Think that that's incredibly smart and something that has probably 0:39:18.204 --> 0:39:21.444 allowed you to survive in a very risky and very 0:39:21.524 --> 0:39:24.084 risky area because a lot of people and a lot 0:39:24.124 --> 0:39:27.604 of entrepreneurs don't have enough appreciation for the risk of ruin, right, 0:39:27.644 --> 0:39:30.204 the risk of going to zero, the risk of not 0:39:30.244 --> 0:39:32.804 being able to continue. And it seems like that's something 0:39:32.844 --> 0:39:35.924 that you are thinking about in just globally right in 0:39:36.204 --> 0:39:37.284 every element of your life. 0:39:37.324 --> 0:39:40.724 Certain, yeah, in connection to my to my children, in 0:39:40.724 --> 0:39:45.644 connection of my businesses, in connection to the climate, and yeah, no, 0:39:45.764 --> 0:39:48.444 I mean definitely, like the fat tail on all these 0:39:48.484 --> 0:39:51.484 things is problematic, and I just try to, you know, 0:39:51.524 --> 0:39:54.684 winnow it down. And I do that, you know, in 0:39:55.084 --> 0:39:58.844 any situation by just gathering information. So if I see 0:39:58.844 --> 0:40:02.604 something like my great grandmother was a worse nurse in 0:40:02.644 --> 0:40:08.284 World War One, and my grandmother was dying of a 0:40:08.324 --> 0:40:13.964 fever and being read her last rights and they thought 0:40:14.084 --> 0:40:18.524 she had I don't know the flu, and my great 0:40:18.524 --> 0:40:21.484 grandmother was like, is diphtheria? I know the smell of 0:40:21.524 --> 0:40:24.924 diphtheria from just you know, being like in the trenches. 0:40:25.604 --> 0:40:27.844 You need to treat her for diphtheria or she's going 0:40:27.884 --> 0:40:30.964 to die in ten minutes. And they did and it 0:40:30.964 --> 0:40:34.604 saved her life. So it's just like information like that 0:40:34.604 --> 0:40:36.884 that I find that it's very helpful to have in 0:40:36.964 --> 0:40:41.324 terms of you know, risk mitigation, but also like from 0:40:41.404 --> 0:40:44.684 a business point of view, in terms of like team management. 0:40:44.724 --> 0:40:47.684 I'm also very early. I try to be very early 0:40:47.724 --> 0:40:50.364 to catch things like I'm not going to wait for 0:40:50.404 --> 0:40:55.124 some like major accident like somebody falling down the stairs, 0:40:55.724 --> 0:41:01.244 some like horrific like harassment situation. I try to look 0:41:01.284 --> 0:41:04.484 at like general conditions that could lead to a catastrophic 0:41:04.524 --> 0:41:08.884 outcome and eliminate the risk. That's the other thing I do. 0:41:09.124 --> 0:41:11.004 So, So what's next for you, Henry. 0:41:11.284 --> 0:41:15.884 I'm working on a cool museum project in the city 0:41:16.324 --> 0:41:18.324 that I'll be able to talk about in a couple 0:41:18.324 --> 0:41:23.524 of months. I am working on a little kind of hotel, 0:41:23.564 --> 0:41:26.964 bike shop, restaurant project in the Catskills where I live 0:41:27.084 --> 0:41:29.684 most of the time. A lot of the things I 0:41:29.724 --> 0:41:31.364 do are just like things that kind of I want. 0:41:31.404 --> 0:41:34.124 I opened a little like grow grocery store in my 0:41:34.204 --> 0:41:36.764 town as well, just just to have more access to 0:41:36.804 --> 0:41:41.244 local produce. And then I'm kind of pivoting to more 0:41:41.364 --> 0:41:45.724 focus on just this book on you know, individual action 0:41:45.924 --> 0:41:51.364 and kind of building climate identity as a consumer in 0:41:51.404 --> 0:41:54.604 the ways in which you know, being of this generation, 0:41:54.724 --> 0:41:57.684 whether we like it or not. I think a lot 0:41:57.724 --> 0:42:00.044 of the meaning of one's life as you look back 0:42:00.084 --> 0:42:02.924 in it will be you know, what individual parts that 0:42:03.004 --> 0:42:07.124 I play in this like massive success or you know, 0:42:07.204 --> 0:42:10.884 catastrophic failure and being able to look back at your 0:42:10.884 --> 0:42:14.604 whole life and you know, one won't be able to 0:42:14.684 --> 0:42:18.604 hide from yourself what you know when and just again 0:42:18.644 --> 0:42:21.684 the risk of looking back and not liking what I 0:42:21.724 --> 0:42:26.684 see is haunting for me. And I also think that 0:42:26.724 --> 0:42:30.444 there's a lot of like low grade anxiety that people 0:42:30.484 --> 0:42:35.324 feel about not the threat, but the paralysis. So trying 0:42:35.364 --> 0:42:38.964 to create tools and you know, heuristics for people to 0:42:39.884 --> 0:42:43.564 actually tap into someone to feel good about and not 0:42:43.684 --> 0:42:47.724 just feel you know, low key sleepwalking toward armageddon Like 0:42:47.924 --> 0:42:51.364 that's that's an odd Like there's a lot of issues 0:42:51.404 --> 0:42:54.644 in the world that I can name, like nuclear proliferation. 0:42:55.124 --> 0:42:57.484 I mean, there's many many things where there's literally nothing 0:42:57.604 --> 0:42:59.964 you can do if you're just a normal person who's 0:43:00.004 --> 0:43:01.964 not like in the top tier of government or think tank. 0:43:02.044 --> 0:43:05.044 But climate you know that that's one where we all 0:43:05.084 --> 0:43:08.804 have an actual role. I think people just need a 0:43:08.804 --> 0:43:11.084 bit of guidance and some tools to help them get there. 0:43:11.124 --> 0:43:15.164 So opening these, you know whatever, climate positive restaurants, I've 0:43:15.204 --> 0:43:18.884 had thousands of interactions on a consumer level with people 0:43:18.884 --> 0:43:21.484 being like what is this, Like I don't I feel 0:43:21.524 --> 0:43:24.284 like you're lying to me, Like I don't feel better 0:43:24.324 --> 0:43:26.524 after coming here because like now the rest of my 0:43:26.644 --> 0:43:30.444 life feels like it's problematic and just the ways in 0:43:30.484 --> 0:43:34.404 which trying to create this climate positive experience it just 0:43:34.444 --> 0:43:38.804 didn't have anywhere to land for people emotionally, and just 0:43:38.844 --> 0:43:42.924 trying to work on that larger background issue of not 0:43:44.004 --> 0:43:46.324 having a way to account for non financial values like 0:43:46.684 --> 0:43:51.884 doing you know, the right thing, and to actually feel 0:43:51.924 --> 0:43:53.764 good about that, to feel joy right and to have 0:43:53.884 --> 0:43:56.484 it like help cut down on that low grade anxiety. 0:43:56.684 --> 0:44:00.004 It's a rationally selfish thing to do if people only 0:44:00.324 --> 0:44:02.604 had a place to put that good feeling. So kind 0:44:02.604 --> 0:44:03.564 of working on that. 0:44:04.124 --> 0:44:06.244 I love that and I think that's a really beautiful 0:44:06.284 --> 0:44:11.564 place to end. This was incredibly interesting and very inspiring. 0:44:12.164 --> 0:44:14.884 So I hope that your I hope that your approach 0:44:14.924 --> 0:44:17.684 to risk and kind of your example will indeed help people. 0:44:18.484 --> 0:44:20.444 So thank you so much for sharing, thank you for 0:44:20.524 --> 0:44:26.004 joining us, and I, as a personal selfish consumer, can't 0:44:26.004 --> 0:44:28.004 wait for your next restaurant to open. 0:44:28.564 --> 0:44:30.044 Thanks Maria, really great to see you. 0:44:30.604 --> 0:44:35.964 Good to see you too. Let us know what you 0:44:36.004 --> 0:44:38.404 think of the show. Reach out to us at Risky 0:44:38.444 --> 0:44:42.644 Business at pushkin dot fm. Risky Business is hosted by me, 0:44:42.844 --> 0:44:45.924 Maria Kandikova and Nate Silver, who will be back next week. 0:44:46.404 --> 0:44:49.444 The show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. 0:44:50.044 --> 0:44:53.804 This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our associate producer 0:44:53.844 --> 0:44:57.764 is Gabriel Hunter Chang. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 0:44:58.244 --> 0:45:01.364 Sarah Bruguer is our engineer. If you like the show, 0:45:01.444 --> 0:45:03.684 please rate and review us so other people can find 0:45:03.764 --> 0:45:05.924 us too. And if you want to listen to an 0:45:05.924 --> 0:45:09.044 ad free version, sign up for Pushkin Plus. For six, 0:45:09.204 --> 0:45:11.964 nine nine a month, you get access to ad free listening. 0:45:12.364 --> 0:45:13.244 Thanks for tuning in.