WEBVTT - The case against ‘feeling your feelings’ 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:24.236 Pushkin hay Slight Changers Maya. Here an exciting update before 0:00:24.276 --> 0:00:27.396 we begin. I've just launched a newsletter and the first 0:00:27.556 --> 0:00:30.516 edition is out today. You can sign up using the 0:00:30.556 --> 0:00:33.356 link in the show notes. I'm really looking forward to 0:00:33.396 --> 0:00:36.156 having another place to connect with you all. I'll be 0:00:36.196 --> 0:00:39.756 sharing personal updates, links to what I'm reading or watching lately, 0:00:40.316 --> 0:00:44.316 exciting new science about change, and my top takeaways, and 0:00:44.356 --> 0:00:47.556 some behind the scenes from my conversations on the show. 0:00:47.996 --> 0:00:50.676 The newsletter is totally free, and I'd love it if 0:00:50.676 --> 0:00:53.316 you can sign up. I also want to know what 0:00:53.436 --> 0:00:55.996 kind of content you're craving so I can integrate these 0:00:56.036 --> 0:00:59.276 ideas into my future posts. Feel free to leave a 0:00:59.316 --> 0:01:02.836 comment underneath the first one. Okay, I hope you enjoyed 0:01:02.836 --> 0:01:09.316 the episode. 0:01:14.316 --> 0:01:18.396 Emotions are tools that are useful, all of them, even 0:01:18.436 --> 0:01:21.876 the negative ones. So many of us, I think, strive 0:01:22.036 --> 0:01:24.596 to live lives free of all negative emotion. I think 0:01:24.596 --> 0:01:28.596 this is both impossible and also undesirable. 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:32.756 Ethan Cross is a professor of psychology at the University 0:01:32.796 --> 0:01:36.196 of Michigan. He says we shouldn't see emotions as good 0:01:36.356 --> 0:01:40.716 or bad. They're valuable signals, but when they become too 0:01:40.796 --> 0:01:43.716 intense and start to take over our lives. We can 0:01:43.836 --> 0:01:45.316 learn to turn down the volume. 0:01:45.876 --> 0:01:48.516 I think it's so easy for us to look at 0:01:48.556 --> 0:01:52.316 someone as a kid or an adult and say things like, oh, 0:01:52.916 --> 0:01:55.396 you're terrible at self control, you have no self control. 0:01:55.956 --> 0:02:01.356 But evidence suggests that this is malleable. This can change. 0:02:01.996 --> 0:02:04.916 If you're not good at managing your emotions, now you 0:02:04.956 --> 0:02:06.276 can actually get better. 0:02:10.516 --> 0:02:17.596 On today's show, how to Escape an Emotional Spiral, I'm 0:02:17.636 --> 0:02:21.516 Maya Schunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and this 0:02:21.836 --> 0:02:24.356 is a slight change of plans, a show about who 0:02:24.396 --> 0:02:26.716 we are and who we become in the face of 0:02:26.756 --> 0:02:38.356 a big change. Last time Ethan was on the show, 0:02:38.476 --> 0:02:41.356 we talked about our inner voice and how to manage 0:02:41.396 --> 0:02:44.436 it when it gets a bit too critical. Today, he 0:02:44.556 --> 0:02:47.676 joins me for an in depth conversation about our emotions. 0:02:48.596 --> 0:02:53.356 Ethan says, emotions are information. We may not like feeling envy, 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:56.116 but it can push us to work harder or signal 0:02:56.156 --> 0:02:59.356 to us what we really want in life. Sadness can 0:02:59.396 --> 0:03:03.316 slow us down and invite support from others. Regret can 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:06.836 help us learn from our mistakes. All of these emotions 0:03:06.836 --> 0:03:12.076 are useful, but sometimes the emotions can overwhelm. Us Ethan's 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:15.476 new book is a guide for managing that overwhelm. It's 0:03:15.516 --> 0:03:19.236 called Shift, Managing your emotions so they don't manage you. 0:03:20.076 --> 0:03:22.676 He explores what we can do when emotions become more 0:03:22.676 --> 0:03:27.196 harmful than helpful. We started off our conversation by talking 0:03:27.196 --> 0:03:29.836 about how we can learn to tell the difference. 0:03:30.476 --> 0:03:36.596 When your emotions are interfering with your ability to live 0:03:36.636 --> 0:03:39.516 the life you want to live. Right, they're getting in 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:42.836 the way of you achieving your goals rather than actually 0:03:43.276 --> 0:03:47.196 helping you achieve your goals. That's an indication that some 0:03:47.396 --> 0:03:51.236 regulation is needed. Let's be concrete about this. So when 0:03:51.276 --> 0:03:55.076 anxiety is getting me to work hard on something that 0:03:55.156 --> 0:03:58.636 is coming up, and then like actually putting in the work, 0:03:58.756 --> 0:04:03.276 my anxiety goes down, that's anxiety working really well. Anxiety 0:04:03.356 --> 0:04:06.636 not working well is when the anxiety is so high 0:04:06.836 --> 0:04:09.796 that I can't actually even sit down to get the 0:04:09.796 --> 0:04:12.316 work done, or even when I do start doing the 0:04:12.356 --> 0:04:15.596 work to prepare, the anxiety sticks with me in ways 0:04:15.596 --> 0:04:18.116 that are interfering with my sleep and putting me on edge. 0:04:18.356 --> 0:04:22.876 That's a kind of miscalibration. The emotional response is out 0:04:22.916 --> 0:04:25.796 of sync with the situation. 0:04:25.316 --> 0:04:27.876 That I'm in Yeah, I'm thinking of another example, which is, 0:04:28.236 --> 0:04:32.716 you know, when we feel just indignation at injustice for example, right, 0:04:32.756 --> 0:04:36.876 we might ask ourselves, is that indignation and anger motivating 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:39.476 us to do something about it? Or are we feeling 0:04:39.556 --> 0:04:43.036 so oppressed by that negativity that we are we're stuck 0:04:43.076 --> 0:04:46.516 in bed right, like we're unable to act. So that's 0:04:46.556 --> 0:04:48.476 another context where that would be relevant. 0:04:48.516 --> 0:04:49.596 It's a perfect example. 0:04:50.036 --> 0:04:53.636 Well, the good news is that in those instances where 0:04:53.676 --> 0:04:58.756 our emotions are overwhelming us, when they're counterproductive, when they're 0:04:58.756 --> 0:05:02.436 eroding our well being, we do have this ability for regulation. 0:05:02.716 --> 0:05:06.436 So let's start with what you mean by emotion regulation. 0:05:06.996 --> 0:05:11.316 So emotion regulation quite simply is the capacity to turn 0:05:11.356 --> 0:05:14.956 the volume up or down on the emotions we're experiencing, 0:05:15.956 --> 0:05:20.116 lengthen or shorten their duration, and in some cases, switch 0:05:20.156 --> 0:05:23.836 from one emotional response to an entirely different one. I 0:05:23.956 --> 0:05:25.516 use the term that you know, the title of my 0:05:25.516 --> 0:05:29.036 book is shift. It's about shifting up or down, long 0:05:29.116 --> 0:05:31.756 or shorter, or to a different response altogether. And I 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:35.236 find it kind of beautiful that on the one hand, 0:05:35.236 --> 0:05:39.276 we evolve to experience all of these different emotions, but 0:05:39.356 --> 0:05:43.956 also this remarkable set of capabilities to rain them in. 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:47.756 So what is the research show, I mean, other than 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:50.636 like intuitively feeling like it would be a very good 0:05:50.636 --> 0:05:53.716 thing to better regulate our emotions, what does the research 0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:58.916 show about the well being outcomes associated with better emotion regulation? 0:05:59.996 --> 0:06:00.876 So you have goals? 0:06:01.116 --> 0:06:04.476 What are your goals in life? Are they to think 0:06:04.516 --> 0:06:07.876 and perform well, to have good relationships, to be healthy. 0:06:08.596 --> 0:06:09.196 If you can. 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:11.916 Manage your emotions, they're going to help you achieve all 0:06:11.956 --> 0:06:14.356 of those goals. And that's what the research supports. So 0:06:14.916 --> 0:06:18.076 people who are better at managing their emotions, they tend 0:06:18.156 --> 0:06:21.716 to do better at school. They can delay gratification longer, 0:06:21.756 --> 0:06:24.036 which is often important when you're studying for things. 0:06:24.716 --> 0:06:26.036 They have improved. 0:06:25.756 --> 0:06:28.596 Relationships with other people because they can manage their emotions, 0:06:28.596 --> 0:06:31.036 which are often triggered by others, more effectively, and so 0:06:31.356 --> 0:06:34.356 they don't end up having as much friction in their relationships. 0:06:34.356 --> 0:06:39.476 So really, this is a kind of master aptitude that 0:06:39.476 --> 0:06:41.396 should benefit people across the board. 0:06:42.236 --> 0:06:44.356 There's this one study that you reference in your book 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:47.356 Ethan from the nineteen seventies, and I'm wondering if you 0:06:47.356 --> 0:06:50.036 can talk about it a bit. It looked at emotion 0:06:50.196 --> 0:06:53.636 regulation in people over a long period of time. 0:06:54.476 --> 0:07:00.796 So basically a cohort of newborns were followed over the 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:04.116 course of their lives and every few years with their 0:07:04.156 --> 0:07:09.036 ability to manage their emotions. Their self control capacity was 0:07:09.196 --> 0:07:11.756 assess by putting them through a series of tasks and 0:07:11.796 --> 0:07:15.916 having other people rap their capacity. And then the researchers 0:07:15.956 --> 0:07:19.516 patiently waited and just every few years they kept on 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:22.796 checking in on this group of participants to see how 0:07:22.836 --> 0:07:26.716 they were doing across the board, from their health to 0:07:26.796 --> 0:07:29.196 their achievement levels at school. 0:07:28.796 --> 0:07:29.476 And in life. 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:33.116 And what they found that was notable were a couple 0:07:33.116 --> 0:07:37.436 of things. Number One, the ability to manage one's emotions 0:07:37.516 --> 0:07:41.836 early on in life predicted a lot about how the 0:07:41.916 --> 0:07:43.516 kids fared once they got older. 0:07:43.556 --> 0:07:45.676 So kids who were adept at. 0:07:45.516 --> 0:07:48.636 Managing their emotions earlier on they advanced further in their careers. 0:07:48.796 --> 0:07:51.876 They saved more money, they planned more for retirement, they 0:07:51.876 --> 0:07:57.356 were physically healthier, and perhaps for me most mind blowingly, yes, 0:07:57.436 --> 0:08:02.076 that is a phrase. They're like. Brain scans showed that 0:08:02.116 --> 0:08:06.196 their brains and other full body scans and their organs 0:08:06.356 --> 0:08:10.756 actually aged more slowly, so across the board, this capacity 0:08:10.836 --> 0:08:15.236 to manage one's emotions is predicting really positive outcomes. 0:08:14.956 --> 0:08:16.316 Later on in life. 0:08:16.596 --> 0:08:19.436 But the other really important finding in that study was 0:08:19.476 --> 0:08:24.556 that it wasn't the case that if you were a 0:08:24.596 --> 0:08:27.356 young kid and you were bad at self control, you 0:08:27.396 --> 0:08:29.996 were consistently bad at And the reason I love that 0:08:30.076 --> 0:08:33.156 finding is because I think it's so easy for us 0:08:33.236 --> 0:08:36.236 to look at someone as a kid or an adult 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:39.876 and say things like, oh, you're terrible at self control, 0:08:39.996 --> 0:08:42.236 you have no self control? Oh, absolutely right, and we 0:08:42.276 --> 0:08:46.156 make these blanket judgments about how people fare. But what 0:08:46.196 --> 0:08:49.116 the finding suggests, along with a slew of other evidence, 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:53.636 is that this is malleable. This can change. If you're 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:56.916 not good at managing your emotions, now you can actually 0:08:56.956 --> 0:09:00.036 get better. How do you get better, I would argue 0:09:00.116 --> 0:09:03.676 it's by familiarizing yourself with the tools that are out 0:09:03.676 --> 0:09:06.316 there and then start practicing them in your lives. 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:09.636 It's such a hopeful message embedded in this study, right, 0:09:09.676 --> 0:09:12.756 which is that for those who struggle with emotion regulation, 0:09:13.156 --> 0:09:15.276 or for those parents who see their kids struggling with 0:09:15.316 --> 0:09:19.516 emotion regulation, there's hope for us all. So that's very exciting. 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:23.956 There is this notion out there and is quite prevalent 0:09:24.196 --> 0:09:28.316 that it is very important, actually crucial for us to 0:09:28.476 --> 0:09:32.156 quote feel our feelings right, to sit in them and 0:09:32.196 --> 0:09:34.876 marinate in them, and if we avoid them, we're actually 0:09:34.876 --> 0:09:38.236 doing a disservice because those negative emotions will rear their 0:09:38.356 --> 0:09:41.756 ugly head in the future with even more forcefulness, like 0:09:41.796 --> 0:09:44.636 with the vengeance. Right for the sake of everyone listening, 0:09:45.236 --> 0:09:47.676 please please please tell us what the science says. 0:09:48.196 --> 0:09:51.556 Well, there's this widespread assumption, and I bought into this 0:09:51.996 --> 0:09:54.956 hook line and sinker for a very long time that 0:09:55.876 --> 0:09:59.676 when you're experiencing something bad, you should just deal with 0:09:59.716 --> 0:10:03.236 it right then and there, approach it, work through your feelings. 0:10:03.556 --> 0:10:05.556 That was a message that was taught to me growing 0:10:05.636 --> 0:10:09.156 up in my family. That was a common message that 0:10:09.276 --> 0:10:11.236 was delivered. And then when I got to grad school, 0:10:11.716 --> 0:10:15.556 there's lots of research which showed that chronically avoiding things 0:10:16.076 --> 0:10:20.236 is bad. And the research on chronic avoidance is rock solid. 0:10:20.356 --> 0:10:24.196 So if your coping tactic is to across the board, 0:10:24.796 --> 0:10:28.036 just avoid thinking about any kind of negative thing that 0:10:28.076 --> 0:10:31.796 happens to you and just distract endlessly and sometimes even 0:10:31.876 --> 0:10:36.076 do it with illicit substances or other unhealthy behaviors. That 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:39.756 doesn't predict good things. But what is missing from the 0:10:39.796 --> 0:10:43.156 way we often talk about this concept of avoidance is 0:10:44.316 --> 0:10:48.796 you don't have to pick between only approaching or only avoiding. 0:10:49.196 --> 0:10:53.716 You can actually be flexible and strategic and shift back 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:56.636 and forth with whether you focus on something that's bothering 0:10:56.676 --> 0:10:58.796 you and whether you take some time away. And it 0:10:58.836 --> 0:11:02.436 turns out research shows that being flexible in that manner 0:11:02.996 --> 0:11:08.436 can be very helpful. So sometimes strategically avoiding a problem 0:11:08.556 --> 0:11:11.556 for a certain period of time can be useful. And 0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:13.156 I'll give you a couple of examples of how that 0:11:13.276 --> 0:11:16.236 might work. So, first of all, sometimes when we get 0:11:16.276 --> 0:11:20.796 triggered by an emotion, it feels so amazingly big and 0:11:20.876 --> 0:11:22.716 we just want to dive in. But if we take 0:11:22.756 --> 0:11:24.956 some time away from it and then you come back 0:11:24.956 --> 0:11:27.596 to the problem several hours later or even a day later, 0:11:28.356 --> 0:11:31.516 time has taken the steam out of the emotional response. 0:11:32.436 --> 0:11:35.156 And this is a well known finding that as time 0:11:35.196 --> 0:11:37.876 goes on, the intensity of our emotions fade. That's true 0:11:37.916 --> 0:11:40.676 of most of our emotional responses. They get triggered, they 0:11:40.756 --> 0:11:42.916 jack up in their intensity, and then as time goes on, 0:11:42.996 --> 0:11:46.316 the intensity goes down. So if you take some time 0:11:46.356 --> 0:11:50.396 away by avoiding strategically and then return you're coming back 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:53.916 to the problem and it's not as intense and it's 0:11:53.916 --> 0:11:56.916 a lot easier to work with as a result. One 0:11:56.956 --> 0:12:01.516 of my favorite studies that demonstrates how being strategic in 0:12:01.556 --> 0:12:04.956 this way, being able to both approach and avoid emotions 0:12:04.996 --> 0:12:07.836 can be useful, was done by a psychologist named George 0:12:07.836 --> 0:12:12.916 Bonano who who was working at Teachers College at Columbia 0:12:13.396 --> 0:12:16.356 right around the time that the nine to eleven attacks occurred. 0:12:17.116 --> 0:12:19.316 And what he did is, in the immediate aftermath of 0:12:19.356 --> 0:12:22.276 those attacks, he was really curious about what are the 0:12:22.316 --> 0:12:25.116 factors that allow people to be resilient in the face 0:12:25.276 --> 0:12:28.196 of a collective tragedy. And so what he did is 0:12:28.236 --> 0:12:30.236 he brought participants into the lab who were living in 0:12:30.236 --> 0:12:32.716 New York City, and he had them engage in a 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:36.996 task where on some trials they were explicitly told to 0:12:37.996 --> 0:12:43.156 express their emotions powerfully, so really immerse yourself in them 0:12:43.156 --> 0:12:45.436 in a certain sense and just show them to someone else. 0:12:45.716 --> 0:12:49.076 And on other trials they were told to suppress their emotions, 0:12:49.116 --> 0:12:52.276 so really conceal these things, try to push them away 0:12:52.556 --> 0:12:54.356 to the point that no one else can even see 0:12:54.396 --> 0:12:57.556 that you're experiencing these things, and then he tracked those 0:12:57.716 --> 0:13:02.996 participants over time to see how they fared emotionally. And 0:13:03.036 --> 0:13:06.756 what he found is that the participants who fared best, 0:13:06.876 --> 0:13:10.156 the participants who showed the most resilience in the face 0:13:10.196 --> 0:13:14.636 of the attacks, where the participants who were able to 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:18.316 both express their emotions when they were asked to do 0:13:18.396 --> 0:13:21.316 so and suppress their emotions when they were asked to 0:13:21.316 --> 0:13:23.516 do so. So it was being really good at both 0:13:23.556 --> 0:13:26.036 of these skills that predicted the most success. 0:13:26.316 --> 0:13:29.436 Yeah, and one of the things I've read in Banano's 0:13:29.436 --> 0:13:32.676 research is he says, you know, it's not strictly necessary 0:13:32.796 --> 0:13:36.636 for every person to have to quote work through their grief. 0:13:36.676 --> 0:13:39.636 For example. Right, there are studies showing that those who 0:13:39.636 --> 0:13:44.236 show more positive emotions following a traumatic experience actually show 0:13:44.316 --> 0:13:47.996 better long term outcomes. And I like this research overall 0:13:48.236 --> 0:13:52.396 because there's this broader lesson that emerges from it, which 0:13:52.436 --> 0:13:55.156 is there is no one size fits all approach to 0:13:55.316 --> 0:14:00.236 emotional well being or to processing difficult situations. And I 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:04.716 do feel like there is so much judgment of ourselves 0:14:04.756 --> 0:14:08.436 and of others in terms of how they process challenging events. Right. 0:14:08.476 --> 0:14:12.396 I've I've been in situations where someone did seem very avoidant, 0:14:12.396 --> 0:14:14.716 and it was like you're a little alarmed. You're like, 0:14:14.716 --> 0:14:16.756 oh no, what's going to happen. This is going to 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:18.836 be terrible. They actually turned out fine. 0:14:19.876 --> 0:14:23.596 I cannot reinforce enough the message that you just articulated, Maya, 0:14:24.276 --> 0:14:26.756 there are no one sized solutions when it comes to 0:14:26.836 --> 0:14:30.716 managing your emotional lives. Forget avoidance. Let's take something even 0:14:30.796 --> 0:14:35.316 more innocuous. Let's take like mindfulness or meditation. Lots of 0:14:35.316 --> 0:14:39.036 people advocate that as a solution as a panacea to 0:14:39.236 --> 0:14:42.556 our emotional distress, and it helps tons of people. And 0:14:42.596 --> 0:14:47.876 if that's you, great, keep meditating, be mindful. This is fantastic. 0:14:48.356 --> 0:14:51.156 But I've also come across lots of people who say 0:14:51.236 --> 0:14:54.116 this doesn't work for me, and they actually feel bad, like, well, 0:14:54.196 --> 0:14:57.476 what's wrong with me that this isn't helping me. There's 0:14:57.516 --> 0:14:59.756 nothing wrong with you again, there's everything right with you. 0:14:59.796 --> 0:15:03.076 You're a human being. There are reasons we don't quite 0:15:03.236 --> 0:15:06.996 understand yet why some people acclimate to some tools more 0:15:07.516 --> 0:15:08.076 than others. 0:15:08.436 --> 0:15:11.676 Yeah, no, I really this is very freeing. We're so 0:15:11.796 --> 0:15:14.716 often met by prescriptions around you know, how to do 0:15:14.756 --> 0:15:18.516 grief the right way, or how to process anger. The 0:15:18.596 --> 0:15:21.316 right way. And I love what you said about mindfulness 0:15:21.396 --> 0:15:25.276 and meditation. Like I've spent a total of ten minutes 0:15:26.196 --> 0:15:29.116 during my time on planet Earth meditating and like that 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:30.996 is my max. Like I don't think I'll ever be 0:15:30.996 --> 0:15:32.756 able to do it or commit to it. It just 0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:35.636 doesn't work for me. A quick walk outside has always 0:15:35.636 --> 0:15:38.476 been a better antidote, you know, for whatever distress I'm feeling. 0:15:38.596 --> 0:15:40.996 So I think that's a wonderful message. 0:15:41.116 --> 0:15:43.236 We did this these two large studies. 0:15:43.276 --> 0:15:45.956 This is research that just came out where we track 0:15:46.036 --> 0:15:51.756 people during the COVID nineteen pandemic, and each day we 0:15:51.796 --> 0:15:55.356 measured people's COVID anxiety and we also asked them which 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:59.076 of eighteen different tools did you use to manage your emotions? 0:15:59.116 --> 0:16:02.396 And some of them were healthy tools and others were 0:16:02.716 --> 0:16:06.076 less healthy, like alcohol usage, things like that. What we 0:16:06.236 --> 0:16:11.196 found was Number One, on average, people use between three 0:16:11.196 --> 0:16:13.796 and four tools each day to manage your emotion, so 0:16:13.836 --> 0:16:16.436 it was seldom the case that people just did one thing. 0:16:17.196 --> 0:16:23.276 Number Two, there was remarkable diversity in the combinations of 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:24.476 tools that people. 0:16:24.276 --> 0:16:26.356 Used to manage their circumstances. 0:16:27.076 --> 0:16:29.756 When I say remarkable, that is an understatement. We were 0:16:29.996 --> 0:16:33.556 floored there are no one size fits all solutions when 0:16:33.556 --> 0:16:37.036 it comes to managing your emotional life. Just embrace that, 0:16:37.156 --> 0:16:40.236 and I think you'll naturally look for the tools and 0:16:40.276 --> 0:16:42.156 combinations of tools that work best for you. 0:16:43.956 --> 0:16:47.236 After the break, Ethan shares some of these tools and 0:16:47.356 --> 0:16:53.516 explains why your favorite perfume might be one of them. 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:55.636 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:16:55.636 --> 0:17:11.356 of plans. We've been talking about how there's no one 0:17:11.396 --> 0:17:13.916 size fits all approach, but there are tools that we 0:17:13.956 --> 0:17:16.996 can be experimental with, right that everyone who's listening can 0:17:17.276 --> 0:17:19.756 try out and see how well they work in any 0:17:19.756 --> 0:17:24.996 given context. So let's start by digging into some techniques 0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:29.556 that we can use to strategically shift our attention away 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:31.436 from our negative emotions. Yeah. 0:17:31.476 --> 0:17:35.156 So, I think it's helpful to have a few different 0:17:35.196 --> 0:17:38.916 categories of tools so that you can know on the 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:41.716 fly where to look when you're struggling with an emotion 0:17:41.756 --> 0:17:42.476 and want to ring them in. 0:17:42.836 --> 0:17:43.676 And so in the book, I. 0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:46.276 Provide three categories of tools that are things you can 0:17:46.316 --> 0:17:49.956 do on your own inside you. Those are internal shifters, 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:51.956 and then there are things outside of us that I 0:17:51.996 --> 0:17:56.676 call external shifters. For internal shifters, one category, or what 0:17:56.716 --> 0:18:02.276 I call sensory shifters. Our senses are remarkably efficient tools 0:18:02.716 --> 0:18:04.196 for pushing our emotions around. 0:18:04.236 --> 0:18:05.636 And we all know. 0:18:05.756 --> 0:18:10.876 This intuitively because we've experienced some triggered in response to 0:18:11.276 --> 0:18:15.516 sensory experiences throughout our lives. But we often fail to 0:18:15.636 --> 0:18:19.596 activate these sensory shifters strategically when we need them. So 0:18:19.836 --> 0:18:22.596 let me zoom in on one of my favorite sensory shifters. 0:18:23.156 --> 0:18:23.516 Music. 0:18:25.076 --> 0:18:27.836 In one study, participants were asked, why do you listen 0:18:27.876 --> 0:18:30.716 to music? Almost everyone in the study ninety six or 0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:33.316 ninety seven percent of participants. So, I like to listen 0:18:33.316 --> 0:18:35.956 to music because I like the way it makes me feel. 0:18:36.356 --> 0:18:39.556 It's an emotional experience. But then, we've done studies where 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:41.916 we ask people to think about the last time they 0:18:41.916 --> 0:18:45.676 were angry, anxious, or sad, and you said, what did 0:18:45.716 --> 0:18:47.796 you do when you had those emotions and you tried 0:18:47.836 --> 0:18:50.796 to rain them in? Only between ten and thirty percent 0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:54.436 of participants report going to music to push their emotions 0:18:54.436 --> 0:18:55.556 in a particular direction. 0:18:55.796 --> 0:18:59.196 You mean being proactive about it, proactive and strategic, and like, 0:18:59.236 --> 0:19:01.356 I've listened to music my entire life. 0:19:01.556 --> 0:19:03.836 MC hammer, you can't touch this. This is like my 0:19:03.956 --> 0:19:08.396 first cassette followed by Madonna The Immacuate Collection. Let the 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:10.476 judgment of my music tastes begin now. 0:19:10.476 --> 0:19:12.556 I was just going to say, I'm really enjoying this. 0:19:12.796 --> 0:19:16.276 Yes, yes, it gets worse, Yeah, don't worry. But I've 0:19:16.316 --> 0:19:18.756 loved music. I've listened to it throughout my life. And 0:19:18.836 --> 0:19:24.636 yet have I been strategic about putting on certain songs 0:19:25.196 --> 0:19:27.916 to push my emotions in different directions when I've struggled 0:19:27.916 --> 0:19:31.316 with things Until recently, The answer to that question is no. 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:33.996 But now that I'm aware of this, it's on my radar, 0:19:34.636 --> 0:19:38.956 I'm incredibly strategic about it. I have a playlist designed 0:19:38.956 --> 0:19:42.196 to amplify emotional responses like get me revved up when 0:19:42.236 --> 0:19:44.316 I want to feel that way. I also have songs 0:19:44.316 --> 0:19:47.236 that I go to that calm me down and take 0:19:47.276 --> 0:19:50.796 the edge off. Music is such a powerful to One 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:55.556 more example of this is sent We are spritsing ourselves 0:19:55.996 --> 0:20:00.196 with these chemicals to manipulate the way other people feel 0:20:00.236 --> 0:20:02.396 about us and the way we feel about ourselves all 0:20:02.396 --> 0:20:05.076 the time. I was just in an airport yesterday, I 0:20:05.116 --> 0:20:08.956 was traveling internationally, and I walk through the duty free shop. 0:20:09.636 --> 0:20:12.916 That's not a duty free shop. That's an emotion regulation store. Right, 0:20:12.956 --> 0:20:16.356 there's like perfumes and colognes all over the place. Why 0:20:16.396 --> 0:20:20.796 are we wearing those? Why is it that some hotels, 0:20:21.316 --> 0:20:24.676 when you walk in there, they smell so unbelievably good 0:20:25.036 --> 0:20:28.556 you never want to leave. It's because they are harnessing 0:20:29.196 --> 0:20:32.756 what we know about senses and emotion regulation. They're piping 0:20:32.836 --> 0:20:37.956 certain sense through their ventilation system to make the place 0:20:38.156 --> 0:20:42.476 smell great. So once you're aware of this stuff, now 0:20:42.476 --> 0:20:45.916 you've got access to tools to push your emotions around 0:20:46.196 --> 0:20:48.836 right in the heat of the moment, and they work really, 0:20:48.916 --> 0:20:49.636 really fast. 0:20:50.556 --> 0:20:52.956 I also love music, and it's occurring to me in 0:20:52.996 --> 0:20:57.756 this moment that I too, have never strategically turned music 0:20:57.796 --> 0:21:01.236 on to shift my emotions. What are your thoughts on 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:05.716 finding music that is congruent with our emotional state versus 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:10.356 music that's incongruate. So if I'm feeling like, really really sad, 0:21:10.556 --> 0:21:12.236 don't I just want to play adele. 0:21:12.436 --> 0:21:16.876 Yeah, commiseration and someone understands me. And so whether that's 0:21:16.916 --> 0:21:19.836 good or bad depends on your goals. So if we 0:21:19.876 --> 0:21:22.956 stick with sadness, I'm a proponent of the idea that 0:21:23.036 --> 0:21:26.756 sadness is functional in the right dosage. Right, my worldview 0:21:26.836 --> 0:21:29.956 is challenged. I can't really fix what's going on. I 0:21:30.036 --> 0:21:32.356 just lost my job or I just lost someone I love. 0:21:32.636 --> 0:21:35.236 I've got to now reframe how I think about myself 0:21:35.276 --> 0:21:37.956 in this world so I can get back out there 0:21:38.596 --> 0:21:42.076 and persevere. And so sadness helps me do that hard 0:21:42.116 --> 0:21:46.396 cognitive work. And if the music is going to facilitate that, 0:21:46.716 --> 0:21:50.556 keep that emotion active to help me do that rethinking 0:21:50.596 --> 0:21:53.996 and reframing, that could well be a good thing. Here's 0:21:54.036 --> 0:21:57.876 where that becomes a problem. If you're feeling sad and 0:21:57.916 --> 0:22:01.436 you don't want to feel sad anymore, but you find 0:22:01.436 --> 0:22:04.876 yourself listening to the music, then the music is going 0:22:04.916 --> 0:22:07.196 to be counter to your goals. And that's where you 0:22:07.236 --> 0:22:10.636 want to resist the temptation to go to Adele and 0:22:10.836 --> 0:22:13.836 if it's me, you go to Journey insteads although it 0:22:13.876 --> 0:22:14.996 depends on the Journey song. 0:22:15.076 --> 0:22:18.196 But right, right, do you mind talking a bit about 0:22:18.236 --> 0:22:22.796 the neuroscience behind the senses and why this is such 0:22:22.796 --> 0:22:24.996 a powerful tool for us to leverage. 0:22:25.356 --> 0:22:31.316 Yeah, So your sensory apparatus is linked to your capacity 0:22:31.356 --> 0:22:34.316 to experience emotions in the brain. In some cases the 0:22:34.316 --> 0:22:38.836 networks are overlapping actually, and What that means for our 0:22:39.356 --> 0:22:46.596 everyday lives is different sensory experiences can trigger emotions automatically. 0:22:46.756 --> 0:22:50.716 They can trigger those emotional experiences super super fast. The 0:22:50.756 --> 0:22:55.476 reason why that's so important is sometimes emotion regulation feels 0:22:55.516 --> 0:22:59.516 like it's really really hard to do, and it sometimes 0:22:59.676 --> 0:23:01.716 is hard to do. When we try to, for example, 0:23:01.796 --> 0:23:05.396 reframe how we're thinking about things. Sometimes that can be challenging, 0:23:05.476 --> 0:23:09.036 like take a lot of effort. Sure, the sensory ways 0:23:09.156 --> 0:23:13.036 of pushing our emotions around don't have the same effortfulness. 0:23:13.076 --> 0:23:13.276 There. 0:23:13.356 --> 0:23:16.796 In fact, effort list to some degree, and that's in 0:23:16.876 --> 0:23:18.716 part where their power resides. 0:23:19.356 --> 0:23:21.996 It's so funny that you talk about the sensory stuff, 0:23:21.996 --> 0:23:23.276 though I don't know if you know this. So during 0:23:23.676 --> 0:23:27.796 my postdoc and cognitive neuroscience, we actually we took an 0:23:27.836 --> 0:23:30.876 old factometer, which is this machine that delivers sense to people, 0:23:31.356 --> 0:23:34.556 and we installed it in the fMRI machine, so into 0:23:34.596 --> 0:23:37.356 the brain scanner, and as people lay there and we're 0:23:37.356 --> 0:23:41.036 faced with decisions and expressions of risk preferences and whatnot, 0:23:41.076 --> 0:23:45.076 we fed them different sense, right, like calming sense and 0:23:45.316 --> 0:23:48.556