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Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight Changers Maya. Here an exciting update before

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Speaker 1: we begin. I've just launched a newsletter and the first

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Speaker 1: edition is out today. You can sign up using the

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Speaker 1: link in the show notes. I'm really looking forward to

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Speaker 1: having another place to connect with you all. I'll be

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Speaker 1: sharing personal updates, links to what I'm reading or watching lately,

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Speaker 1: exciting new science about change, and my top takeaways, and

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Speaker 1: some behind the scenes from my conversations on the show.

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Speaker 1: The newsletter is totally free, and I'd love it if

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Speaker 1: you can sign up. I also want to know what

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Speaker 1: kind of content you're craving so I can integrate these

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Speaker 1: ideas into my future posts. Feel free to leave a

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Speaker 1: comment underneath the first one. Okay, I hope you enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the episode.

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Speaker 2: Emotions are tools that are useful, all of them, even

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Speaker 2: the negative ones. So many of us, I think, strive

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Speaker 2: to live lives free of all negative emotion. I think

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Speaker 2: this is both impossible and also undesirable.

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Speaker 1: Ethan Cross is a professor of psychology at the University

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Speaker 1: of Michigan. He says we shouldn't see emotions as good

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Speaker 1: or bad. They're valuable signals, but when they become too

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Speaker 1: intense and start to take over our lives. We can

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Speaker 1: learn to turn down the volume.

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Speaker 2: I think it's so easy for us to look at

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Speaker 2: someone as a kid or an adult and say things like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're terrible at self control, you have no self control.

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Speaker 2: But evidence suggests that this is malleable. This can change.

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Speaker 2: If you're not good at managing your emotions, now you

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Speaker 2: can actually get better.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, how to Escape an Emotional Spiral, I'm

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Speaker 1: Maya Schunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and this

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Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans, a show about who

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Speaker 1: we are and who we become in the face of

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Speaker 1: a big change. Last time Ethan was on the show,

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Speaker 1: we talked about our inner voice and how to manage

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Speaker 1: it when it gets a bit too critical. Today, he

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Speaker 1: joins me for an in depth conversation about our emotions.

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Speaker 1: Ethan says, emotions are information. We may not like feeling envy,

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Speaker 1: but it can push us to work harder or signal

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Speaker 1: to us what we really want in life. Sadness can

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Speaker 1: slow us down and invite support from others. Regret can

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Speaker 1: help us learn from our mistakes. All of these emotions

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Speaker 1: are useful, but sometimes the emotions can overwhelm. Us Ethan's

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Speaker 1: new book is a guide for managing that overwhelm. It's

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Speaker 1: called Shift, Managing your emotions so they don't manage you.

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Speaker 1: He explores what we can do when emotions become more

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Speaker 1: harmful than helpful. We started off our conversation by talking

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Speaker 1: about how we can learn to tell the difference.

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Speaker 2: When your emotions are interfering with your ability to live

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Speaker 2: the life you want to live. Right, they're getting in

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Speaker 2: the way of you achieving your goals rather than actually

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Speaker 2: helping you achieve your goals. That's an indication that some

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Speaker 2: regulation is needed. Let's be concrete about this. So when

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Speaker 2: anxiety is getting me to work hard on something that

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Speaker 2: is coming up, and then like actually putting in the work,

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Speaker 2: my anxiety goes down, that's anxiety working really well. Anxiety

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Speaker 2: not working well is when the anxiety is so high

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Speaker 2: that I can't actually even sit down to get the

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Speaker 2: work done, or even when I do start doing the

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Speaker 2: work to prepare, the anxiety sticks with me in ways

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Speaker 2: that are interfering with my sleep and putting me on edge.

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Speaker 2: That's a kind of miscalibration. The emotional response is out

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Speaker 2: of sync with the situation.

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Speaker 1: That I'm in Yeah, I'm thinking of another example, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we feel just indignation at injustice for example, right,

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Speaker 1: we might ask ourselves, is that indignation and anger motivating

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Speaker 1: us to do something about it? Or are we feeling

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Speaker 1: so oppressed by that negativity that we are we're stuck

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Speaker 1: in bed right, like we're unable to act. So that's

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Speaker 1: another context where that would be relevant.

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Speaker 3: It's a perfect example.

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Speaker 1: Well, the good news is that in those instances where

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Speaker 1: our emotions are overwhelming us, when they're counterproductive, when they're

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Speaker 1: eroding our well being, we do have this ability for regulation.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with what you mean by emotion regulation.

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Speaker 2: So emotion regulation quite simply is the capacity to turn

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Speaker 2: the volume up or down on the emotions we're experiencing,

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Speaker 2: lengthen or shorten their duration, and in some cases, switch

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Speaker 2: from one emotional response to an entirely different one. I

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Speaker 2: use the term that you know, the title of my

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Speaker 2: book is shift. It's about shifting up or down, long

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Speaker 2: or shorter, or to a different response altogether. And I

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Speaker 2: find it kind of beautiful that on the one hand,

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Speaker 2: we evolve to experience all of these different emotions, but

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Speaker 2: also this remarkable set of capabilities to rain them in.

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Speaker 1: So what is the research show, I mean, other than

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Speaker 1: like intuitively feeling like it would be a very good

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Speaker 1: thing to better regulate our emotions, what does the research

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Speaker 1: show about the well being outcomes associated with better emotion regulation?

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Speaker 3: So you have goals?

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Speaker 2: What are your goals in life? Are they to think

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Speaker 2: and perform well, to have good relationships, to be healthy.

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Speaker 3: If you can.

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Speaker 2: Manage your emotions, they're going to help you achieve all

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Speaker 2: of those goals. And that's what the research supports. So

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Speaker 2: people who are better at managing their emotions, they tend

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Speaker 2: to do better at school. They can delay gratification longer,

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Speaker 2: which is often important when you're studying for things.

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Speaker 3: They have improved.

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Speaker 2: Relationships with other people because they can manage their emotions,

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Speaker 2: which are often triggered by others, more effectively, and so

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Speaker 2: they don't end up having as much friction in their relationships.

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Speaker 2: So really, this is a kind of master aptitude that

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Speaker 2: should benefit people across the board.

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Speaker 1: There's this one study that you reference in your book

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Speaker 1: Ethan from the nineteen seventies, and I'm wondering if you

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Speaker 1: can talk about it a bit. It looked at emotion

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Speaker 1: regulation in people over a long period of time.

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Speaker 2: So basically a cohort of newborns were followed over the

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Speaker 2: course of their lives and every few years with their

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Speaker 2: ability to manage their emotions. Their self control capacity was

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Speaker 2: assess by putting them through a series of tasks and

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Speaker 2: having other people rap their capacity. And then the researchers

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Speaker 2: patiently waited and just every few years they kept on

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Speaker 2: checking in on this group of participants to see how

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Speaker 2: they were doing across the board, from their health to

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Speaker 2: their achievement levels at school.

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Speaker 3: And in life.

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Speaker 2: And what they found that was notable were a couple

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Speaker 2: of things. Number One, the ability to manage one's emotions

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Speaker 2: early on in life predicted a lot about how the

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Speaker 2: kids fared once they got older.

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Speaker 3: So kids who were adept at.

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Speaker 2: Managing their emotions earlier on they advanced further in their careers.

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Speaker 2: They saved more money, they planned more for retirement, they

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Speaker 2: were physically healthier, and perhaps for me most mind blowingly, yes,

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Speaker 2: that is a phrase. They're like. Brain scans showed that

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Speaker 2: their brains and other full body scans and their organs

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Speaker 2: actually aged more slowly, so across the board, this capacity

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Speaker 2: to manage one's emotions is predicting really positive outcomes.

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Speaker 3: Later on in life.

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Speaker 2: But the other really important finding in that study was

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Speaker 2: that it wasn't the case that if you were a

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Speaker 2: young kid and you were bad at self control, you

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Speaker 2: were consistently bad at And the reason I love that

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Speaker 2: finding is because I think it's so easy for us

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Speaker 2: to look at someone as a kid or an adult

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Speaker 2: and say things like, oh, you're terrible at self control,

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Speaker 2: you have no self control? Oh, absolutely right, and we

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Speaker 2: make these blanket judgments about how people fare. But what

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Speaker 2: the finding suggests, along with a slew of other evidence,

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Speaker 2: is that this is malleable. This can change. If you're

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Speaker 2: not good at managing your emotions, now you can actually

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Speaker 2: get better. How do you get better, I would argue

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Speaker 2: it's by familiarizing yourself with the tools that are out

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Speaker 2: there and then start practicing them in your lives.

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Speaker 1: It's such a hopeful message embedded in this study, right,

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Speaker 1: which is that for those who struggle with emotion regulation,

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Speaker 1: or for those parents who see their kids struggling with

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Speaker 1: emotion regulation, there's hope for us all. So that's very exciting.

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Speaker 1: There is this notion out there and is quite prevalent

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Speaker 1: that it is very important, actually crucial for us to

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Speaker 1: quote feel our feelings right, to sit in them and

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Speaker 1: marinate in them, and if we avoid them, we're actually

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Speaker 1: doing a disservice because those negative emotions will rear their

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Speaker 1: ugly head in the future with even more forcefulness, like

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Speaker 1: with the vengeance. Right for the sake of everyone listening,

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Speaker 1: please please please tell us what the science says.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's this widespread assumption, and I bought into this

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Speaker 2: hook line and sinker for a very long time that

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Speaker 2: when you're experiencing something bad, you should just deal with

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Speaker 2: it right then and there, approach it, work through your feelings.

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Speaker 2: That was a message that was taught to me growing

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Speaker 2: up in my family. That was a common message that

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Speaker 2: was delivered. And then when I got to grad school,

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Speaker 2: there's lots of research which showed that chronically avoiding things

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Speaker 2: is bad. And the research on chronic avoidance is rock solid.

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Speaker 2: So if your coping tactic is to across the board,

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Speaker 2: just avoid thinking about any kind of negative thing that

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Speaker 2: happens to you and just distract endlessly and sometimes even

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Speaker 2: do it with illicit substances or other unhealthy behaviors. That

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Speaker 2: doesn't predict good things. But what is missing from the

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Speaker 2: way we often talk about this concept of avoidance is

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Speaker 2: you don't have to pick between only approaching or only avoiding.

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Speaker 2: You can actually be flexible and strategic and shift back

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Speaker 2: and forth with whether you focus on something that's bothering

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Speaker 2: you and whether you take some time away. And it

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Speaker 2: turns out research shows that being flexible in that manner

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Speaker 2: can be very helpful. So sometimes strategically avoiding a problem

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Speaker 2: for a certain period of time can be useful. And

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a couple of examples of how that

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Speaker 2: might work. So, first of all, sometimes when we get

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Speaker 2: triggered by an emotion, it feels so amazingly big and

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Speaker 2: we just want to dive in. But if we take

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Speaker 2: some time away from it and then you come back

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Speaker 2: to the problem several hours later or even a day later,

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Speaker 2: time has taken the steam out of the emotional response.

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Speaker 2: And this is a well known finding that as time

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Speaker 2: goes on, the intensity of our emotions fade. That's true

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Speaker 2: of most of our emotional responses. They get triggered, they

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Speaker 2: jack up in their intensity, and then as time goes on,

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Speaker 2: the intensity goes down. So if you take some time

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Speaker 2: away by avoiding strategically and then return you're coming back

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Speaker 2: to the problem and it's not as intense and it's

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Speaker 2: a lot easier to work with as a result. One

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Speaker 2: of my favorite studies that demonstrates how being strategic in

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Speaker 2: this way, being able to both approach and avoid emotions

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Speaker 2: can be useful, was done by a psychologist named George

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Speaker 2: Bonano who who was working at Teachers College at Columbia

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Speaker 2: right around the time that the nine to eleven attacks occurred.

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Speaker 2: And what he did is, in the immediate aftermath of

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Speaker 2: those attacks, he was really curious about what are the

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Speaker 2: factors that allow people to be resilient in the face

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Speaker 2: of a collective tragedy. And so what he did is

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Speaker 2: he brought participants into the lab who were living in

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Speaker 2: New York City, and he had them engage in a

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Speaker 2: task where on some trials they were explicitly told to

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Speaker 2: express their emotions powerfully, so really immerse yourself in them

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Speaker 2: in a certain sense and just show them to someone else.

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Speaker 2: And on other trials they were told to suppress their emotions,

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Speaker 2: so really conceal these things, try to push them away

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Speaker 2: to the point that no one else can even see

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Speaker 2: that you're experiencing these things, and then he tracked those

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Speaker 2: participants over time to see how they fared emotionally. And

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Speaker 2: what he found is that the participants who fared best,

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Speaker 2: the participants who showed the most resilience in the face

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Speaker 2: of the attacks, where the participants who were able to

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Speaker 2: both express their emotions when they were asked to do

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Speaker 2: so and suppress their emotions when they were asked to

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Speaker 2: do so. So it was being really good at both

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Speaker 2: of these skills that predicted the most success.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and one of the things I've read in Banano's

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Speaker 1: research is he says, you know, it's not strictly necessary

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Speaker 1: for every person to have to quote work through their grief.

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Speaker 1: For example. Right, there are studies showing that those who

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Speaker 1: show more positive emotions following a traumatic experience actually show

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Speaker 1: better long term outcomes. And I like this research overall

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Speaker 1: because there's this broader lesson that emerges from it, which

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Speaker 1: is there is no one size fits all approach to

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Speaker 1: emotional well being or to processing difficult situations. And I

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Speaker 1: do feel like there is so much judgment of ourselves

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Speaker 1: and of others in terms of how they process challenging events. Right.

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Speaker 1: I've I've been in situations where someone did seem very avoidant,

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Speaker 1: and it was like you're a little alarmed. You're like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, what's going to happen. This is going to

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Speaker 1: be terrible. They actually turned out fine.

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Speaker 2: I cannot reinforce enough the message that you just articulated, Maya,

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Speaker 2: there are no one sized solutions when it comes to

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Speaker 2: managing your emotional lives. Forget avoidance. Let's take something even

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Speaker 2: more innocuous. Let's take like mindfulness or meditation. Lots of

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Speaker 2: people advocate that as a solution as a panacea to

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Speaker 2: our emotional distress, and it helps tons of people. And

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Speaker 2: if that's you, great, keep meditating, be mindful. This is fantastic.

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Speaker 2: But I've also come across lots of people who say

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Speaker 2: this doesn't work for me, and they actually feel bad, like, well,

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Speaker 2: what's wrong with me that this isn't helping me. There's

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Speaker 2: nothing wrong with you again, there's everything right with you.

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Speaker 2: You're a human being. There are reasons we don't quite

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Speaker 2: understand yet why some people acclimate to some tools more

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Speaker 2: than others.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really this is very freeing. We're so

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Speaker 1: often met by prescriptions around you know, how to do

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Speaker 1: grief the right way, or how to process anger. The

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Speaker 1: right way. And I love what you said about mindfulness

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Speaker 1: and meditation. Like I've spent a total of ten minutes

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Speaker 1: during my time on planet Earth meditating and like that

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Speaker 1: is my max. Like I don't think I'll ever be

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Speaker 1: able to do it or commit to it. It just

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Speaker 1: doesn't work for me. A quick walk outside has always

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Speaker 1: been a better antidote, you know, for whatever distress I'm feeling.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's a wonderful message.

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Speaker 3: We did this these two large studies.

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Speaker 2: This is research that just came out where we track

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Speaker 2: people during the COVID nineteen pandemic, and each day we

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Speaker 2: measured people's COVID anxiety and we also asked them which

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Speaker 2: of eighteen different tools did you use to manage your emotions?

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Speaker 2: And some of them were healthy tools and others were

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Speaker 2: less healthy, like alcohol usage, things like that. What we

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Speaker 2: found was Number One, on average, people use between three

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Speaker 2: and four tools each day to manage your emotion, so

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Speaker 2: it was seldom the case that people just did one thing.

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Speaker 2: Number Two, there was remarkable diversity in the combinations of

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Speaker 2: tools that people.

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Speaker 3: Used to manage their circumstances.

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Speaker 2: When I say remarkable, that is an understatement. We were

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Speaker 2: floored there are no one size fits all solutions when

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Speaker 2: it comes to managing your emotional life. Just embrace that,

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Speaker 2: and I think you'll naturally look for the tools and

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Speaker 2: combinations of tools that work best for you.

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Speaker 1: After the break, Ethan shares some of these tools and

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Speaker 1: explains why your favorite perfume might be one of them.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change

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Speaker 1: of plans. We've been talking about how there's no one

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Speaker 1: size fits all approach, but there are tools that we

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Speaker 1: can be experimental with, right that everyone who's listening can

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Speaker 1: try out and see how well they work in any

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Speaker 1: given context. So let's start by digging into some techniques

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Speaker 1: that we can use to strategically shift our attention away

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Speaker 1: from our negative emotions. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, I think it's helpful to have a few different

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Speaker 2: categories of tools so that you can know on the

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Speaker 2: fly where to look when you're struggling with an emotion

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Speaker 2: and want to ring them in.

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Speaker 3: And so in the book, I.

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Speaker 2: Provide three categories of tools that are things you can

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Speaker 2: do on your own inside you. Those are internal shifters,

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Speaker 2: and then there are things outside of us that I

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Speaker 2: call external shifters. For internal shifters, one category, or what

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Speaker 2: I call sensory shifters. Our senses are remarkably efficient tools

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Speaker 2: for pushing our emotions around.

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Speaker 3: And we all know.

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Speaker 2: This intuitively because we've experienced some triggered in response to

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Speaker 2: sensory experiences throughout our lives. But we often fail to

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Speaker 2: activate these sensory shifters strategically when we need them. So

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Speaker 2: let me zoom in on one of my favorite sensory shifters.

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Speaker 3: Music.

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Speaker 2: In one study, participants were asked, why do you listen

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Speaker 2: to music? Almost everyone in the study ninety six or

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Speaker 2: ninety seven percent of participants. So, I like to listen

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Speaker 2: to music because I like the way it makes me feel.

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Speaker 2: It's an emotional experience. But then, we've done studies where

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Speaker 2: we ask people to think about the last time they

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Speaker 2: were angry, anxious, or sad, and you said, what did

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Speaker 2: you do when you had those emotions and you tried

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Speaker 2: to rain them in? Only between ten and thirty percent

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Speaker 2: of participants report going to music to push their emotions

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Speaker 2: in a particular direction.

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Speaker 1: You mean being proactive about it, proactive and strategic, and like,

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Speaker 1: I've listened to music my entire life.

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Speaker 2: MC hammer, you can't touch this. This is like my

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Speaker 2: first cassette followed by Madonna The Immacuate Collection. Let the

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Speaker 2: judgment of my music tastes begin now.

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Speaker 1: I was just going to say, I'm really enjoying this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it gets worse, Yeah, don't worry. But I've

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Speaker 2: loved music. I've listened to it throughout my life. And

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Speaker 2: yet have I been strategic about putting on certain songs

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Speaker 2: to push my emotions in different directions when I've struggled

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Speaker 2: with things Until recently, The answer to that question is no.

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Speaker 2: But now that I'm aware of this, it's on my radar,

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Speaker 2: I'm incredibly strategic about it. I have a playlist designed

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Speaker 2: to amplify emotional responses like get me revved up when

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Speaker 2: I want to feel that way. I also have songs

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Speaker 2: that I go to that calm me down and take

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Speaker 2: the edge off. Music is such a powerful to One

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Speaker 2: more example of this is sent We are spritsing ourselves

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Speaker 2: with these chemicals to manipulate the way other people feel

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Speaker 2: about us and the way we feel about ourselves all

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Speaker 2: the time. I was just in an airport yesterday, I

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Speaker 2: was traveling internationally, and I walk through the duty free shop.

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Speaker 2: That's not a duty free shop. That's an emotion regulation store. Right,

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Speaker 2: there's like perfumes and colognes all over the place. Why

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Speaker 2: are we wearing those? Why is it that some hotels,

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Speaker 2: when you walk in there, they smell so unbelievably good

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Speaker 2: you never want to leave. It's because they are harnessing

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Speaker 2: what we know about senses and emotion regulation. They're piping

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Speaker 2: certain sense through their ventilation system to make the place

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Speaker 2: smell great. So once you're aware of this stuff, now

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Speaker 2: you've got access to tools to push your emotions around

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Speaker 2: right in the heat of the moment, and they work really,

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Speaker 2: really fast.

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Speaker 1: I also love music, and it's occurring to me in

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Speaker 1: this moment that I too, have never strategically turned music

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Speaker 1: on to shift my emotions. What are your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: finding music that is congruent with our emotional state versus

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Speaker 1: music that's incongruate. So if I'm feeling like, really really sad,

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Speaker 1: don't I just want to play adele.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, commiseration and someone understands me. And so whether that's

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Speaker 2: good or bad depends on your goals. So if we

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Speaker 2: stick with sadness, I'm a proponent of the idea that

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Speaker 2: sadness is functional in the right dosage. Right, my worldview

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Speaker 2: is challenged. I can't really fix what's going on. I

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Speaker 2: just lost my job or I just lost someone I love.

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Speaker 2: I've got to now reframe how I think about myself

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Speaker 2: in this world so I can get back out there

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Speaker 2: and persevere. And so sadness helps me do that hard

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Speaker 2: cognitive work. And if the music is going to facilitate that,

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Speaker 2: keep that emotion active to help me do that rethinking

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Speaker 2: and reframing, that could well be a good thing. Here's

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Speaker 2: where that becomes a problem. If you're feeling sad and

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Speaker 2: you don't want to feel sad anymore, but you find

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Speaker 2: yourself listening to the music, then the music is going

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Speaker 2: to be counter to your goals. And that's where you

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Speaker 2: want to resist the temptation to go to Adele and

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Speaker 2: if it's me, you go to Journey insteads although it

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Speaker 2: depends on the Journey song.

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Speaker 1: But right, right, do you mind talking a bit about

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Speaker 1: the neuroscience behind the senses and why this is such

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Speaker 1: a powerful tool for us to leverage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So your sensory apparatus is linked to your capacity

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Speaker 2: to experience emotions in the brain. In some cases the

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Speaker 2: networks are overlapping actually, and What that means for our

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Speaker 2: everyday lives is different sensory experiences can trigger emotions automatically.

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Speaker 2: They can trigger those emotional experiences super super fast. The

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Speaker 2: reason why that's so important is sometimes emotion regulation feels

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Speaker 2: like it's really really hard to do, and it sometimes

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Speaker 2: is hard to do. When we try to, for example,

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Speaker 2: reframe how we're thinking about things. Sometimes that can be challenging,

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Speaker 2: like take a lot of effort. Sure, the sensory ways

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Speaker 2: of pushing our emotions around don't have the same effortfulness.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 2: In fact, effort list to some degree, and that's in

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Speaker 2: part where their power resides.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny that you talk about the sensory stuff,

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Speaker 1: though I don't know if you know this. So during

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Speaker 1: my postdoc and cognitive neuroscience, we actually we took an

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Speaker 1: old factometer, which is this machine that delivers sense to people,

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Speaker 1: and we installed it in the fMRI machine, so into

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Speaker 1: the brain scanner, and as people lay there and we're

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Speaker 1: faced with decisions and expressions of risk preferences and whatnot,

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Speaker 1: we fed them different sense, right, like calming sense and

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Speaker 1: nostalgic sense and comfy cozy sense like cookies or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And we looked at how that sensory information affected, often

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Speaker 1: outside of awareness, right, their willingness to take risks, or

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Speaker 1: their willingness to delay rewards and things like that. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: this is such a fascinating topic.

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Speaker 2: I think we just don't appreciate it enough. I mean,

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Speaker 2: and there are simple things you could do, think in sense.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's just once you are alert to this

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Speaker 2: link between sensory experience and emotions, it will change the

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Speaker 2: way you view the world. Like awareness of this gives

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Speaker 2: you agency to push it around.

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Speaker 1: So we talked about one internal shifter, right, which is

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Speaker 1: our senses. Any other internal shifters that we should keep

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Speaker 1: in mind.

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Speaker 2: Attention is another one. And this is what attention refers to.

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Speaker 2: Is you've got this spotlight in your mind. It's where

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Speaker 2: are you focusing it. Sometimes you want to focus on

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Speaker 2: the thing that's bugging you because you want to work

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Speaker 2: through it. Sometimes you want to point it elsewhere, you

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Speaker 2: want to get a break. You have a distraction, then

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Speaker 2: come back to it. If it's a positive experience, sometimes

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Speaker 2: focusing on the source of positivity can help you amplify

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Speaker 2: that state. So the key is you want to be

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Speaker 2: flexible in how you wield that attentional spotlight. And then

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Speaker 2: the final internal shifter is what I call a perspective shifter.

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Speaker 2: The idea is, sometimes you can't afford to look away

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Speaker 2: from something. You have to stare right at it, and

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Speaker 2: so we can also reframe it, think differently about it.

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Speaker 3: And one key to doing that is.

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Speaker 2: This ability to step back and look at the bigger picture,

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Speaker 2: get some distance from the problem. And once you get

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Speaker 2: some distance, it's often a lot easier to reframe how

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Speaker 2: we're thinking about things. It can be hard to reframe

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Speaker 2: when you're standing right in the middle of the fire,

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Speaker 2: so to speak. So there are lots of different ways

436
00:25:30,196 --> 00:25:31,436
Speaker 2: you could shift your perspective.

437
00:25:31,756 --> 00:25:33,796
Speaker 3: One of my favorites.

438
00:25:34,036 --> 00:25:36,916
Speaker 2: Not to say this is for everyone, that would violate

439
00:25:36,956 --> 00:25:39,356
Speaker 2: what I genuinely believe no one size fits all solutions.

440
00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:41,156
Speaker 2: But one tool that works for me is called distance

441
00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:45,836
Speaker 2: self talk. It's trying to work through a problem, but

442
00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:48,316
Speaker 2: using my own name to try to think it through

443
00:25:48,396 --> 00:25:50,556
Speaker 2: rather than the first person. I so, all right, Ethan,

444
00:25:50,596 --> 00:25:53,036
Speaker 2: how are you going to manage the situation? That gives

445
00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:55,316
Speaker 2: me some mental space. It helps me think about myself

446
00:25:55,436 --> 00:25:58,276
Speaker 2: like I'm someone else, which makes it easier for me

447
00:25:58,436 --> 00:26:02,876
Speaker 2: to think more objectively about the circumstance. Temporal distancing is

448
00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:07,156
Speaker 2: another tool that is immediately accessible in my toolbag. So

449
00:26:07,996 --> 00:26:10,996
Speaker 2: another way to talk about this mental time travel. If

450
00:26:11,036 --> 00:26:13,916
Speaker 2: I'm struggling with a problem it feels really big, I

451
00:26:13,916 --> 00:26:17,156
Speaker 2: could jump into this time travel machine and ask myself,

452
00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:19,556
Speaker 2: how am I going to feel about this five days

453
00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:21,836
Speaker 2: from now, five weeks from now, five years from now.

454
00:26:22,076 --> 00:26:24,836
Speaker 2: I know from a lifetime of experience is that I

455
00:26:24,916 --> 00:26:27,436
Speaker 2: experience lots of big emotions all the time, but as

456
00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:29,956
Speaker 2: time goes on, they wane in their intensity. I forget

457
00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:33,876
Speaker 2: about that when I'm in the midst of something. So

458
00:26:33,876 --> 00:26:40,116
Speaker 2: those are the three internal shifters, sensation, attention, and perspective.

459
00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:43,836
Speaker 2: The key is that these are like simple shifts that

460
00:26:43,916 --> 00:26:46,796
Speaker 2: we can engage, and they're like psychological jiu jitsu moves

461
00:26:47,356 --> 00:26:50,636
Speaker 2: that can alter the trajectory of our emotional responses ever

462
00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:54,676
Speaker 2: so slightly. But that ever so slightness, I would argue,

463
00:26:54,836 --> 00:26:57,676
Speaker 2: is sometimes all you need to get back on track.

464
00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:01,196
Speaker 1: I love that. Okay, So we talked about these internal shifters.

465
00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:05,516
Speaker 1: What about external shifters? So situations in which we actually

466
00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:08,316
Speaker 1: are capable of changing aspects of our environment.

467
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:12,116
Speaker 2: So other people can shift our emotions. And when we

468
00:27:12,156 --> 00:27:14,356
Speaker 2: find the right people to talk to you about our emotions,

469
00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:17,516
Speaker 2: people who are skilled at both letting us express our

470
00:27:17,556 --> 00:27:20,996
Speaker 2: emotions if we want to, but also helping us work through.

471
00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:21,516
Speaker 3: Them as well.

472
00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:26,396
Speaker 2: That's a really powerful asset that we possess. One of

473
00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:29,236
Speaker 2: my favorite findings in social psychology is a great way

474
00:27:29,276 --> 00:27:31,476
Speaker 2: to make yourself feel better when you're not feeling so

475
00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:34,036
Speaker 2: good is to do something good for someone else.

476
00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:37,916
Speaker 1: Helping others know my favorite insight, Yeah.

477
00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:39,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, helps ourselves.

478
00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:42,636
Speaker 2: That's another way that other people can shift us. You

479
00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:43,276
Speaker 2: mentioned going.

480
00:27:43,196 --> 00:27:44,076
Speaker 3: Outside for a walk.

481
00:27:44,196 --> 00:27:49,476
Speaker 2: That's great, but there's some other powerful space shifters out

482
00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:52,356
Speaker 2: there that I don't think we always have top of mind.

483
00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:57,236
Speaker 2: We often get attached to places. I'm attached to the

484
00:27:57,556 --> 00:27:59,756
Speaker 2: tea house where I wrote my first book in ann Arbor.

485
00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:02,196
Speaker 2: Every time I go into that teahouse, I'm filled with

486
00:28:02,236 --> 00:28:05,676
Speaker 2: a sense of warmth and comfort. The arboretum is another

487
00:28:05,756 --> 00:28:08,796
Speaker 2: source of warmth and comfort for me, and so whenever

488
00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:11,196
Speaker 2: I visit those places if I'm not feeling great, they

489
00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:14,276
Speaker 2: make me feel better. When my kids were young and

490
00:28:14,396 --> 00:28:17,356
Speaker 2: they get upset for any reason, I remember them often

491
00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:19,156
Speaker 2: saying and at the time. It was just so curious

492
00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:21,396
Speaker 2: to me. They just wanted to go home. They wanted

493
00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:24,676
Speaker 2: to go to their rooms. That was a place that

494
00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:28,676
Speaker 2: they were safely and securely attached to. And so think

495
00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:32,956
Speaker 2: about the spaces in your environment that provide you with

496
00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:36,356
Speaker 2: a source of resilience. We all have those safe places,

497
00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:39,996
Speaker 2: but what are they and do you actually strategically visit

498
00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:41,476
Speaker 2: them when you're struggling.

499
00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:45,876
Speaker 1: We've been talking about how helpful emotion regulation can be

500
00:28:46,036 --> 00:28:49,996
Speaker 1: and how it's correlated with all sorts of positive health

501
00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:54,516
Speaker 1: benefits and better outcomes for society. Even and I say

502
00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:58,916
Speaker 1: this as someone who with a very practical orientation, sometimes

503
00:28:59,596 --> 00:29:03,596
Speaker 1: I feel like our emotional reactions need not be evaluated

504
00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:06,716
Speaker 1: based on whether they have utility, right, like whether they

505
00:29:06,836 --> 00:29:10,796
Speaker 1: lead to some productive ends. Like sometimes we just want

506
00:29:10,836 --> 00:29:12,996
Speaker 1: to feel things for the sake of feeling them, because

507
00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:17,596
Speaker 1: it's vindicating, it's therapeutic, there's some catharsis in it. I'm

508
00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:22,316
Speaker 1: thinking about the awful atrocities that we've witnessed all over

509
00:29:22,356 --> 00:29:25,156
Speaker 1: the world in the last year. And you know, Ethan,

510
00:29:25,196 --> 00:29:29,116
Speaker 1: sometimes I just want to feel like really insert expletive

511
00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:32,116
Speaker 1: mad like and you know, I just want to feel

512
00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:36,196
Speaker 1: that and So what do you say to people like

513
00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:39,476
Speaker 1: me in those circumstances where we might feel powerless to

514
00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:44,036
Speaker 1: change something, and where having that strong negative reaction feels

515
00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:47,916
Speaker 1: necessary because it is just like the most human response

516
00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:50,036
Speaker 1: to have in the face of that information.

517
00:29:51,556 --> 00:29:53,836
Speaker 2: One thing I think that is important is to not

518
00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:57,196
Speaker 2: overthink things too much when it comes to our emotional

519
00:29:57,236 --> 00:30:00,916
Speaker 2: lives and the way you just describe that, I just

520
00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:03,436
Speaker 2: want to be angry for a while. If that's your

521
00:30:03,476 --> 00:30:06,716
Speaker 2: goal and you're capable of achieving it, embrace it. If

522
00:30:06,716 --> 00:30:10,756
Speaker 2: it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you want

523
00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:15,156
Speaker 2: to feel differently, you should also know that there's tremendous

524
00:30:15,236 --> 00:30:17,756
Speaker 2: potential for you to do that. There are lots of

525
00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:20,716
Speaker 2: tools available for you to rain those responses in or

526
00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:22,676
Speaker 2: amplify them if you so choose.

527
00:30:23,476 --> 00:30:26,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like I'm seeding in that moment, like

528
00:30:26,436 --> 00:30:28,836
Speaker 1: this is not the most productive response and it's actually

529
00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:31,876
Speaker 1: serving no one to feel this way. But I just

530
00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:35,876
Speaker 1: given to that impulse, because again, there's something cathartic about

531
00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:41,276
Speaker 1: having just embracing human empathy, right Like when you feel

532
00:30:41,316 --> 00:30:43,436
Speaker 1: outraged on behalf of someone else, you know that's just

533
00:30:43,556 --> 00:30:45,276
Speaker 1: a rich part of the human experience.

534
00:30:45,876 --> 00:30:48,116
Speaker 3: I would say that's probably for you.

535
00:30:48,316 --> 00:30:50,916
Speaker 2: There's a you're in the functional zone for a while.

536
00:30:51,076 --> 00:30:55,436
Speaker 2: Experiencing those emotions give yourself the permission to feel those emotions,

537
00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:59,396
Speaker 2: and that's a gift to yourself. Emotions, all of them

538
00:30:59,836 --> 00:31:03,876
Speaker 2: serve a function. You know, if you experience negative emotions,

539
00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:06,556
Speaker 2: welcome to the human condition. This is a good thing.

540
00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:09,236
Speaker 3: Hopefully listeners find that libera.

541
00:31:31,196 --> 00:31:33,996
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. And just a reminder,

542
00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:37,516
Speaker 1: I'm starting a newsletter. I'm so excited to have another

543
00:31:37,556 --> 00:31:39,516
Speaker 1: place to connect with all of you, and I'll be

544
00:31:39,556 --> 00:31:42,596
Speaker 1: sharing personal updates and links to things that I'm interested

545
00:31:42,596 --> 00:31:47,156
Speaker 1: in and exciting new science, also takeaways from conversations on

546
00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,276
Speaker 1: this show. It's totally free and you can sign up

547
00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:56,316
Speaker 1: using the link in our show notes. Next week on

548
00:31:56,356 --> 00:31:59,356
Speaker 1: the show, why It's so hard to stand up for

549
00:31:59,436 --> 00:32:00,156
Speaker 1: what you believe in.

550
00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:05,836
Speaker 4: We have been so trained in compliance from a young age,

551
00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:09,676
Speaker 4: and we've become so socialized to comply onto obey that

552
00:32:09,756 --> 00:32:11,956
Speaker 4: we don't have the skill set for defines. We don't

553
00:32:11,956 --> 00:32:14,036
Speaker 4: know how to do it, and so is that training

554
00:32:14,076 --> 00:32:15,436
Speaker 4: that's missing from all lives.

555
00:32:16,116 --> 00:32:19,796
Speaker 1: Psychologist Sunita Saw walks us through the art and Science

556
00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:23,036
Speaker 1: of Saying No, That's next week on A Slight Change

557
00:32:23,076 --> 00:32:29,236
Speaker 1: of Plans See Again. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written,

558
00:32:29,316 --> 00:32:32,956
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change

559
00:32:32,996 --> 00:32:37,076
Speaker 1: Family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate

560
00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:41,716
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and

561
00:32:41,756 --> 00:32:46,076
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful

562
00:32:46,076 --> 00:32:49,556
Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A

563
00:32:49,596 --> 00:32:52,756
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,

564
00:32:52,916 --> 00:32:55,916
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a

565
00:32:56,116 --> 00:32:59,316
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A

566
00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:02,596
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker,

567
00:33:02,836 --> 00:33:03,636
Speaker 1: See you next week.

568
00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:19,716
Speaker 2: The do