1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now. Today's episode 3 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: is really a topic that a lot of y'all wrote in. 4 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: You emailed, you tweeted, and you said, where is your 5 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: episode on SESTA? And you all are right. SESTA is 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: an issue that impacts a lot of folks out there. 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: It impacts some of the folks who are listening right now, 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: and it's an issue that I think, you know, we 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: owe it to the community to really to really dig into, 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: Right Annie, I agree, and I think that it's something 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: that a lot of us might be confused about or 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: not entirely sure what it is and why there's all 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: this controversy around it. So can you kind of explain 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: what it is? I will do my best. I am 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: no legal expert, but I will. We will have people 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: who are smarter than me breaking this down later on 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: soon in this episode, I swear. But let's just take 18 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: a quick step back, a quick overview. So pretty recently 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: President Trump signed into law a bill that's a mashup 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: of FOSTA that's Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act and SESTA 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,559 Speaker 1: Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act into law, and the whole 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: thing is sort have commonly referred to as SESTA, kind 23 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: of under an umbrella. So when you think both of 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: these pieces of legislation, SESTA has sort of become the 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: umbrella term to refer to both of them. And as 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: you can probably gather him the name, it was sold 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: as a way to stop sex trafficking, which I think 28 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: most folks can agree unless you're a sex trafficker. Most 29 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: people would agree, Oh, stopping sex trafficking. That's very good, 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: I would hope, so you would hope. So, so it 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: sounds pretty good, um, and had had a push by 32 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: some famous faces. You might remember Amy Schumer and Seth 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: Meyers both the p S a S in support of it. 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: But then you might ask, why do you have organizations 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: like the A C l U and the Electronic Freedom 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: Foundation and and sex worker organizations themselves coming out against it? Yeah, 37 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: I would ask that question, and we did ask that question. 38 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: Before we get into SESTA, let's do a brief overview, 39 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: very very very brief of sex work and sex trafficking. 40 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: Sex trafficking is the fastest growing criminal industry and it 41 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: generates an estimated nine billion dollars a year on a 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: global scale. Sex workers have anywhere from a forty five 43 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: to probability of experiencing sexual violence. Amnesty internationalists the human 44 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: rights abuses that sex workers are at risk of ranging 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: from violence, arbitrary arrest and attention, forced e fiction, exclusion 46 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: from health services, our lack of legal redress. So I'm 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: actually glad that you framed it in that way because 48 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: online a lot of times I've seen these two issues 49 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: would have become conflated. And so something I've seen a 50 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: lot of folks involved in the sex work industry say 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: is that you know a lot of them say, listen, 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: trafficking is awful. We also want to stop trafficking, but 53 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: do not conflate people who are being traffic, people who 54 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: are being exploited, people who are being against their will 55 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: forced into something they don't want to do, with adults 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: who are engaging in sex work. And so I think 57 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: the way that you frame that, I think is really 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: important because a lot of folks seem to sort of 59 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: be talking about them as if they are one and 60 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: the same, and sex workers have been pretty clear that 61 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: that's not always the case. Right, It makes it makes 62 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: it sound as if there's one narrative and that there 63 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: is no consensual adult exchange of money. It's just people 64 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: miserable being trafficked. There's nothing else. Um. And to get 65 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: to the heart of what SESSEDA does is it it's 66 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: pretty much making websites liable for user generated content on 67 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: their sites. So any mention of an exchange of sex 68 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: for money and the website would be on the hook 69 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: for it. And even though it'll be many months before 70 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: it goes into effect, several sites and platforms are preemptively 71 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: shutting anything that remotely could fall under sessed it down, 72 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: like Craigslist, um, some sex trade forms, even some dating sites. 73 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: And Google is already taking steps to police sex language 74 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: by enforcing terms of service. And this enforcement got some 75 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: folks blocked out of their own Google docs for abusive language. 76 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: So it is also touching on like Internet censorship, and 77 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the Internet is what it is today because 78 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: the platforms that provide us this space to say things 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: are not legally liable for what we're saying. And then 80 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: a big player in this whole thing is Backpage, which 81 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: is a website that hosts advertisements, some of which are sexual, 82 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: and days before Trump signed the bill, federal authorities, including 83 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: the FBI sees Backpage dot com, So clearly they didn't 84 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: need sessed to for this, to take this action, um 85 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: and to unpack this whole Backpage situation a bit. They've 86 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: been and on the radar since the twenty sixteen California 87 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: Department of Justice report asserted of the one thirty five 88 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: million dollars the site made from ads came from adult ads. 89 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: After this, a Senate subcommittee started investigating back Page, looking 90 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,679 Speaker 1: for any link to the sex trafficking of children. According 91 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: to The Washington Post, the site made some modification to 92 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: keep the adult ads minus any mentions of children. And 93 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: then also in which is a tough year for back Page, 94 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: the CEO, Carl Ferrer was arrested for allegations of pimping 95 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: a minor and his Dallas office was rated. The charges 96 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: against Farah were dropped under Section two thirty A in 97 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: the Communications Decency Act the c d A, which protects 98 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: web publishers from being punished proposed by third parties on 99 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: their site, and the c d A is a huge 100 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: part of what makes the Internet the Internet. This is 101 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: what sessta's seeking to change to get rid of, essentially 102 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: um to thirty A of the c d A early 103 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: in the Supreme Court passed on a lawsuit brought up 104 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: by three women alleging that back Page played a role 105 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: in coercing them into prostitution. The website did do away 106 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: with all of their adult ads under pressure from that 107 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: Senate subcommittee, but they labeled the act as on constitutional censorship. Certainly, 108 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: this issue is one that that is, you know, very complex. 109 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 1: But I think that you bring up a good point 110 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: which I see sort of reiterated online in conversations about 111 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: back Page and rent Boy, is that some folks say, hey, 112 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: you've got people who are being exploited against their will, 113 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: and then other folks say, actually being able to have 114 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: access to sites like friend boy and back Page or 115 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: the reason why I'm able to do this in a 116 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: in a safer way, And going back to what you 117 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: said earlier, bridget about how, um, we kind of don't 118 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: or at least SESTA doesn't differentiate between sex trafficking and 119 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: sex work. The House report on SESTA in fact describe 120 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: sex trafficking and prostitution as inextricably linked. But this again 121 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: paints everyone in the same brush, and it ignores sexual 122 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: agency and the whole range of other experiences out there. 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: We're not listening to people when we're making these laws exactly. 124 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: So I want to be super clear. I am not 125 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: saying that there aren't, you know, people out there who 126 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: are being exploited against their will. They're certainly are, and 127 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: I think we should be cracking down on that. But 128 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: legislation that just lumps everybody together and paints everything with 129 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: a wide brush, I think is the wrong way to 130 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: do it. And I think the fact that you have 131 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: a lot of these policies not being driven by folks 132 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: who are in the industry, I think is really telling. 133 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: And I think we're just categorically like refusing to listen 134 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: to people who I think, you know, no, no, their 135 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: industry better than anybody else. And I also think, I mean, 136 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: let's be clear, I think that we live in a 137 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: culture where sex work is dealt with and a whole 138 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: host of ways, particularly like in pop culture, in media 139 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: and news, and I think some of them are not 140 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: super help full. And so I think you either have 141 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: this idea of like a pampered courtisan and a hotel 142 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: is making lots and lots of money and like going 143 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: on fancy dinners. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Uh, I'm sure that's happening, 144 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: but also you have this image of folks who are 145 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: coerced and exploited, and I'm sure that's happening too, but 146 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: it just I think what I'm what I'm trying to 147 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: say is that folks who are involved in sex work, 148 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: like any other industry, deserve to be respected and deserved 149 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: to be able to have their agency respected, and they 150 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: deserve to be people. Shouldn't be infantilizing them by making 151 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: choices on their behalf, especially if they're saying these choices 152 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: don't work for our profession or are actually furthering stigma 153 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: or furthering harm. And so I want to be clear. 154 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: I think that it really comes down to creating a 155 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: world where folks who are involved in sex work, just 156 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: like any other industry, feel supported, and that we we 157 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: are saying, like, what is it that would make you 158 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: feel supported in the work that you do, and then 159 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: we try to connect those dots. I just feel like, 160 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: for for whatever reason, when sex gets involved, it was 161 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: any their industry would be like, yeah, of course, when 162 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: sex gets involved, we kind of lose our minds a 163 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: little bit, and we forget that there is a diversity 164 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: of stories out there and we you know, it should 165 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: behoove us to keep that in mind. We have to 166 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: look at oh, all of the issues as if it 167 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: were any other job, which really should be treated aside. Yeah, 168 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: I I this is a different soapbox, But I am 169 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: all about sort of like demystifying sex work. You know, 170 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: we it's it's a job. It's it's it's work. It 171 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: work is right in the name, right. I don't know. 172 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: I don't don't like this idea that it's like when 173 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: you read, like, even in doing research for this episode, 174 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: so many of the accounts that I've read about Sesta, 175 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: we're sort of laced in this sort of you know, 176 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: um titillating. You know, like the image the cover image 177 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: is like a woman in fishnet stocking. It's kind of 178 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: lit from behind walking down the street. And I'm like, wow, sure, 179 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: but really, I don't know. I just I'm I think 180 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: that it's even if you are not someone who is 181 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: a sex worker, even if you're not someone who ever 182 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: plans on being a client of a sex worker, I 183 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: think it's on all of us to sort of de 184 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: stigmatize and demystify this kind of work because if we 185 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: if it's stigmatized, then we can't talk about it, and 186 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: it's it's happening. As you just said, it's a it's 187 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: a it's an industry that does not appear to be 188 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: going away. So we need to be able to talk 189 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: about it in ways that are realistic and aren't sort 190 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: of steeped in this I don't know moral outrage or 191 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: or moral panic, right, and we are not the only 192 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: ones that think this. Um and Amnesty International has a 193 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: few recommendations on making the life of sex workers better, 194 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: and one is ensuring that they take place take part 195 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: in the development of laws that concern them. Two is 196 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: guaranteeing access to health, education, and employment options. And another 197 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: recommendation is decriminalizing sex work, since the evidence shows that 198 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: criminalization puts sex workers at a greater risk by making 199 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: access to health care more difficult, impeding their ability to 200 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,359 Speaker 1: report crimes to the authorities, and keeping them from organizing. 201 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: And they make sure to differentiate between sex trafficking and 202 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: sex work, which they define as consensual exchanges between adults. 203 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: So we're not just just ranting into microphones here, UM, 204 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: this is this is something that we we have to 205 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: be able to discuss seriously, and we also have to 206 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: look at the systemic causes if we want to address 207 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: if we really want to address sex trafficking, then we 208 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: need to look at why it's happening and why. As 209 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: we said it's such at the beginning, it is a 210 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: very um lucrative illegal business and that is why we um. 211 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: We we got some people who are more in the 212 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: no more on the ground in this to talk to 213 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: to hopefully help us understand all of these moving parts 214 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: around SESTA and sex work exactly. I couldn't be more 215 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: thrilled to have the who have been in this space 216 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: and working in this space for a while join us 217 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: for today's conversation. So after this quick break, you're gonna 218 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: be hearing from Kate Diadamo. We'll be right back and 219 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: we're back, and we are so thrilled to be joined 220 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: in studio today by Kate Diadamo. Kate is a sex 221 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: worker rights advocate working on issues impacting people who trade sex, 222 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: including criminalization, public health, and exploitation and trafficking. She has 223 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: worked with the national policy advocate at the Sex Workers 224 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: Project and as a community organizer with the Sex Workers 225 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: Outreach Project and sex Worker Action New York. This work 226 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: has really included a whole host of things, policy, advocacy, 227 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: community and leadership building and training. Right now, Kate is 228 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: a partner at Reframed Health Injustice, a queer trans people 229 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: of color collaborative supporting organizations with heart to live up 230 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: to their values. Kate, thank you so much for being 231 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: here today. Absolutely, thank you so much for talking about 232 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: this great So, Kate sweet off the that what is FESTA. 233 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,719 Speaker 1: So SESTA is a law that just passed and was 234 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: signed by the President, and what it does is expand 235 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: liability for platforms which hosts adds for the sex industry. 236 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: So what that means is, all of a sudden, it 237 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: went from uh having protection, so things like Facebook, you know, 238 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: aren't legally responsible for what gets for the content that 239 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: gets posted on their site because it's posted by someone else, 240 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: and that's just a lot to monitor. So what SESTER 241 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: did was actually create this liability that not only the 242 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: federal government, but every single state attorney's general can now 243 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: file a civil suit if they think that a website 244 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: is that information and it's connected to sex trafficking and 245 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: they think that they're not doing enough. Unfortunately, that law 246 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: also did not define what enough meant and so what 247 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: it did was really create this liability which fifty one 248 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: government lawsuit, pretty big liability, without explaining how to actually 249 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: follow the law. The other thing that it did would 250 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: create a brand new federal crime, which said that people 251 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: who either manage or own third party platforms um which 252 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: facilitate or promote prostitution, not traffcking, but prostitution now are 253 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: exposed to a federal crime punishable by up to twenty 254 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: five years in prison. And while that stars sound really narrow, 255 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: and that includes things like community based organizations that round 256 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: list serves, which provide harm reduction information, websites that can 257 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: bring people together to share that information. And I was 258 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: a community organizer for years in New York City, and 259 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: that would have exposed me to a sedual crime for 260 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: doing things like sharing bad dates on our list. Yeah. 261 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: So something that I've noticed, so I've gone a little 262 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: bit of volunteering here and there with organizations is a 263 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: great one in DC called the Hips, and they're sort 264 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: of yes, I love him anything. If people know Hips, 265 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: it's so good. It's have a van they drive around 266 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: d C. Basically it's like harm reduction. So they're not 267 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: trying to sort of quote unquote and I hate this language, 268 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: but quote unquote save sex workers are like, what do 269 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: y'all need? How can we get you what you need? 270 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: How can we support you? Which I love that model 271 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: where it's like, you know, how can we make this work? 272 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: How can we make this work better? You know? Um? 273 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: And so one of the things they do that I 274 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: think is so revolutionary is that they have these list 275 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: serves where people in the industry can share information about 276 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote bad date. So if one of 277 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: your clients doesn't pay, or one of your clients is 278 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: just gross or sleazy, or is not hygienic or gives 279 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: you attitude when you ask, you know, for you know, 280 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: for certain things. People need to know that, just like 281 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: we have glass door for other industries, that's not an 282 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: unusual thing. And for me, when I found out that 283 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: organizations do that, I was like, Oh, that is such 284 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: a democratization of information, Like people need to know, like 285 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: you need to know if you're if this client is 286 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: going around making appointment and then flaking on them and 287 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: not showing up, and you're gonna waste your time. Even 288 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: things that are not about sort of like putting someone 289 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: in danger, just that are you know things that you 290 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: should know, and the idea of shutting down the spread 291 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: of information seemed so reckless to me, Like more information 292 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: for people in any workplace is going to be better, 293 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: more transparency is going to be better. So it just 294 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: didn't make sense to me that they were cracking down 295 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: on something I thought was so clearly a good thing 296 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: to have. Absolutely, you know, communities develop ways to stay 297 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: safe that work for those communities. And you're right about 298 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: harm reduction. The cornerstone of harm reduction is preserving people's integrity, 299 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: their self determination and saying, tell me what's harming you 300 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: and you get to decide what that means, and we're 301 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: just gonna work together to address that harm. And so 302 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: developing things like bad day lists have been really important 303 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: to the safety of sex workers. And the thing is 304 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people say, oh, the government would never 305 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: crack down on that, that that's absurd. And the thing is, 306 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily even about that. What this law did 307 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: would create liability for platform posting it. So those platforms 308 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: have to decide whether or not whether or not they 309 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: have the litigation budget to deal with the lawsuit to 310 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,199 Speaker 1: prove that that's okay. And when you look at the 311 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: closures of sites like back Page or like grand Boy, 312 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: and you look at what the government is using to 313 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: prove that they knew that prostitution was happening on their site. 314 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: They go to things like know your Rights information, which 315 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: is cited in the red Boy case. They go to 316 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: things like interpersonal communications where people from credit from back Page, 317 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: we're saying, you know, we help to make the sex 318 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: industry safer. And so when you look at that as 319 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: a company trying to decide whether or not you want 320 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: to go bankrupt and possibly go to jail for twenty 321 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: five years in order to maintain this information, that's really 322 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: not a fair decision. And so while these lists themselves, 323 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: you know, maybe they're not gonna arrest the person distributing it, 324 00:17:55,280 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: though that's happened too, it's asking that that come need 325 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: to take on liability for holding that, and they have 326 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: to make that decision of whether or not they want 327 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: to compromise their entire website and company to do that, right, 328 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: And I was reading that bigger companies like Google can 329 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: afford to pay for a lawyer when any kind of 330 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: lawsuit comes in based on this, but smaller companies are 331 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: like preemptively taking action to take anything down that could 332 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: be interpreted under this law that they could come under 333 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: fire from some potential lawsuits. So it even gets rid 334 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: of like it touches on internet censorship and monopolies kind of. 335 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: So how did how do websites could you go more 336 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: into more details like websites like backpage and Kigslist, um, 337 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: how they helped make things less dangerous for sex workers? Sure, 338 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: and you know, internet platforms really provided people the ability 339 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: to have more control of the way that they worked, 340 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: have more control over the negotiations with clients, um, not 341 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: necessarily having to work in public spaces, and so having 342 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: access to the Internet and online advertising really changed the 343 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: game in terms of folks that were treating sex. And 344 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: there's a study that's still being poer reviewed, but that 345 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: looked at the opening of the Craigslist erotic services section 346 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: years and years and years ago, and you found that 347 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: it correlated with a seventent drop in female homicide rates, 348 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: not homicide rates for people that think sex female homicide rates. 349 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: And when you talk to the authors, they said, you know, 350 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: there's are a range of rootings why this could be, 351 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: but ultimately it's because sex workers made up that higher 352 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: percentage of female homicides, and having access to safety and 353 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: harm reduction made that much of a difference. And so 354 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 1: working online means that you get to screen clients in 355 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: a whole new way. When you're on the street, you're 356 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: probably looking at the side of your eye to see 357 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: if you know, law enforcements around, to see who else 358 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: is around when you're in a somewhat vulnerable conversation, and 359 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: you end up rushing those conversations a lot more. Then 360 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: you end up going to a more isolated location to 361 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: actually engage with that client. And so when you're working online, 362 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: you can not only have longer conversations to negotiate for 363 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: things like boundaries or condomies, or to just check if 364 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: they're safe and see how they talk about you know 365 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: what they want, and have a real gut check that 366 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: you don't have when you're in a compromise uh public area. 367 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: And so then you get to make a lot more 368 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: decisions about that physical interaction and where that interaction happens, 369 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: so you get to have more control over where that is. 370 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: Then on top of that, you do get access to 371 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: things like bad date list or you can take their 372 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: information and run it through this list, you can check 373 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: in with other people to say, hey, have you seen 374 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: any other providers recently and check in with those providers 375 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: who you know. Maybe it's not a question of safety, 376 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: but maybe it's a question of hey, this person likes 377 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: to push boundaries. Be prepared for that. So those kind 378 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: of interactions that you really lose when you take away 379 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: online spaces. Yeah, so it seems like taking away those 380 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: spaces just makes this work more dangerous, and it seems 381 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: like it's almost one of those things where it's you know, 382 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: it's called a sex trafficking bill, but it doesn't sound 383 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: like it's actually helping to crack down on trafficking. It's 384 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: just making people who are engaged in sex work that 385 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: they're worth that much more dangerous. Exactly. It's not really 386 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: addressing trafficking. It's just making trafficking in the sex industry 387 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: and the in the sex industry more generally go further 388 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: and further underground, so that means it's more isolated, and 389 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: it means that people who are engaged in sex are 390 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: much more vulnerable, and that includes to things like trafficking 391 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: and exploitation. We know what the root causes trafficking are, 392 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: which is exploitation of someone through forced, broader coersion, and 393 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: it happens in every single industry across the board. Work. Also, 394 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: when we talk about trafficking, we have to remember that 395 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: speaking in the sex trade is actually not different, it's 396 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: just treated differently. And the things that increase trafficking. The 397 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: root causes of trafficking are vulnerability and marginalization. And what 398 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: this buil did would not address trafficking. It increased marginalization 399 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: and it increased the vulnerability that creates exploitation. And on 400 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: top of that, you know, having electronic footprint it's really 401 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: important to a trafficking investigation. It's really important to being 402 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: able to identify victims of not trafficking. But also if 403 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: you know that you have a friend who works online, 404 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: um and they go missing for a couple of days, 405 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: you can keep checking places like back page try to 406 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: see where they are, trying to track them down. If 407 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: you're doing a trafficking investigation, you can go and look 408 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: at the credit card that we used to post that 409 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: ad and see what other cities that credit card was 410 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: used in, what other ads that credit card was used in. 411 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: Losing this living This platform was not just bad for 412 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: folks that are trading sex and that includes trafficking victims. 413 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: It also was really bad in losing any credible set 414 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: of information for people who do trafficking investigations. And also, 415 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: I mean, just on top of that, people who are 416 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: involved in the sex work industry. If my endgame is 417 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: to curb trafficking, I would want people who are involved 418 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: in the sex work industry to be allies in that fight. 419 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: And if you make it so they're scared, they don't. 420 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: They don't feel comfortable speaking up about what they're seeing online, 421 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: what they're seeing in their industry. I feel like you 422 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: are silencing what could be a really important ally in 423 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 1: the fight to curb trafficking. It's like, if people are 424 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: afraid to come forward and afraid to just talk about 425 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: what they've seen, how are those people going to go 426 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: to the authorities when their friend goes missing. How are 427 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: they going to feel comfortable reporting something that's sketchy or 428 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: just doesn't seem right to them? You're absolutely right, Um, 429 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, the people who know the most about trafficking 430 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: in the the sex industry is the person next about trafficking victim. 431 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: And I think it's really important anything that harms people 432 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: to treat X includes people who are training sex under 433 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: conditions of force, fraud, and coercion. And so we are 434 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: harming trafficking every time we do things like this, and 435 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: you know, we know what the best practices there identification are. 436 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: And that's true again in every other industry. The community 437 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: knows first, and other people that work in those venues 438 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: know first, and they're the people that are trafficking. Victim 439 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: will trust and we'll go to and we'll say, hey, 440 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: this is happening. What do you think? What can I do? 441 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: When I worked with UM, the Sex Workers Project is 442 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: a direct service organization that serves UM people who trade 443 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: sex across the spectrum of experience. The main way that 444 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: people are leaving trafficking situations just through other community members 445 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: because they were the people that we trusted. They were 446 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: the people that they knew would not touch them. And 447 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: knowing that you're in a trafficking situation, you know, knowing 448 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: that you're in an exploitative situation is already difficult when 449 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: we so normalize the exploitation of people in poverty and 450 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: marginal of folkes and so being able to go to 451 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: the police and say, you know, no, I am breaking 452 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: the law by engaging in prostitution. But let me explain 453 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: this nebulous crime that I don't totally understand whether or 454 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: not it fits the legal definition. And I don't know 455 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: if you know it's definition. You know, trusting that is 456 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: a very very difficult ask. And so you know, whether 457 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about the agriculture industry, domestic work, the best 458 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: way to address trafficking is to lift the floor to 459 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: address the marginalization, which includes criminalization, which includes isolation that 460 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: makes people vulnerable and exploitable. Its trafficking doesn't target individuals. 461 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: It targets vulnerability and it targets what can be exploited. 462 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: And that includes poverty, That includes homelessness, That includes knowing 463 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: that you are a gender nonconforming and you don't really 464 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: have access to resources in your location. It includes knowing 465 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: that you've been picked up for process susan before and 466 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: now you have the lectords, it's going to be that 467 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: much harder to get a job. And so if we 468 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: seriously care about addressing trafficking, even if you don't care 469 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: about sexual rights, if you care about trafficking, then you 470 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: care about addressing the vulnerabilities that make people exposed to trafficking. 471 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: And this bill just increased all of them. So we've 472 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: established that SESTA is not actually that effective at curving 473 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: challenging but um what would be effective. The best way 474 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: to address trafficking is to address root causes first and foremost. 475 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: You know, no matter how good of services or how 476 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: victims centered an investigation is, they're never going to be 477 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: as good as if the person who's never trafficking. What 478 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: we really need to do is, you know, address the incredible, 479 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: incredible economic justice needs in this country. You know, poverty 480 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: is a serious problem. Not having access to a living 481 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: wage job is a serious problem, and then not having 482 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: access to adequate resources after that means that people are 483 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: easily exploited and easily victimized. Another part of that is criminalization. 484 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: And you're afraid of going to police because you don't 485 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: know how that interaction is going to go, then you're 486 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: never going to go to report a crime. I think 487 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: after that we need to talk about, you know, the 488 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: way that the criminal legal system plays out in people's 489 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: fives and especially for criminalized and police populations. You know, 490 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: it really undermines the ability for people to seek justice, 491 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: so they do want to go to that system, and 492 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: so we really need to train people to undermine this 493 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: idea of who is a victim and who is the 494 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: criminal and what that means. And I think finally, you know, 495 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: even for our folks that aren't identified as trafficking victims 496 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: that go through the system, they get access to all 497 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: sorts of resources. You know, it breaks service for writer's hearts. 498 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: And I have this conversation regularly when they said we 499 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: had this client, we did everything we could, and now 500 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: they're raising three kids on a minimum wage jobs. Still 501 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: have I done enough? Have I done? I did what 502 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: I was supposed to do, and I still I feel 503 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: like I'm not serving them well enough. And so, you know, 504 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: beyond a whole of it, if you want to address trafficking, 505 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:18,479 Speaker 1: address poverty, and in the meantime, basic services for victims 506 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: of trafficking are really paltry. So let's say I'm a 507 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: listener and I say this is awful. I want to 508 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: get involved. What can I do? Um? I think, you 509 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: know the most important thing is for people to really 510 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: look at the spasis that they're in. Are those spaces 511 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: if you're in a college campus, if you work in healthcare, 512 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, are those spaces welcoming and accepting and friendly 513 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: towards sex records. If you work at a nonprofit, is 514 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: that nonprofit one that stands out for the rights of 515 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: people who trade sex, the rights of people who are 516 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: involved in street based economies overall, and especially you know 517 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: for this uh podcasts and these listeners in general. And 518 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: I love your podcast, I love the things that you 519 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: speak to. We really need to hold our feminism accountable. 520 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: You know, if you care about violence against women, but 521 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: you don't care about violence against sex workers, that's a 522 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: really narrow definition of who deserves justice and who deserves 523 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: to live free from violence, just like addressing violence against 524 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: trans women, you don't really care about violence against women. 525 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: And so I think most spaces, as we talk about, 526 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, all of these movements of me too, of 527 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: all of these spaces we're coming together and demanding that, 528 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: you know, feminist issue could become mainstream important issues for everyone. 529 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: That really has to include the many, many, many people 530 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: who are living on the margins and are struggling to survive. 531 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: And I think it's really important to recognize that sex 532 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: work is a sign of incredible resilience and it's in 533 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: the backbone of so many marketalized communities. And we have 534 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: to not just accept it tolerated, we have to celebrate 535 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: the way that it is kept so many of us alive. 536 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I couldn't mean, I have chills. I could 537 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: not agree more. I get that a lot of people 538 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: out there, for some reason, their feminism is not inclusive 539 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: of sex workers, and I think, you know, I think 540 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: we have to do more work as feminists to help 541 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: folks understand that sex work doesn't have to be like, 542 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: first of all, you're a sex worker, doesn't mean that 543 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: you're trafficked. Those are different things, right that, Like, we 544 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: have adults who are consensually involved in sex work, and 545 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: as feminist it is important to affirm and lift them up. 546 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: There was a great threat I saw on Twitter that 547 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: was like, if sex work has changed impacted your life 548 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: for the better, let us know. And honestly, for myself, 549 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: I was like, wow, I did not even occur to 550 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: me that you know, people are sharing for them were 551 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: positive experiences And who who am I to be like, No, 552 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: that's not okay? Who am I to be like? No, 553 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: if you're this is we shouldn't we shouldn't be supporting 554 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: this right And I think even right now, I mean 555 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: I I don't know if you've read this interview with 556 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: Cardi B where she talks about her background as a 557 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 1: sex worker, but I think for a lot of folks, 558 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: they are just now starting to understand that how stigmatized 559 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: this work is and how for how long we have 560 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: sort of allowed sex workers to be this sort of 561 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: canary in a coal mine for what we will and 562 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: won't support, and that if your feminism does not support 563 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: sex workers, you need to, you know, rethink what that 564 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: means for you and like why that is definitely and 565 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: when you look at you know, many Angelou was a 566 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: sex worker, so here Vera was a sex worker, and 567 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: all of these people who have you know, maybe every 568 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: experience isn't like a positive, thrifting moment of empowerment. But 569 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about capitalism and labor, and we don't demand 570 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: not from any other industry and definitely not from any 571 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: other industry that has mostly feminized labor. And so you know, 572 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: when we talk about sex works, we have to talk 573 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: about familions. We have to talk about not just strival 574 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: but thriving. We have to talk about an entire group 575 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: of folks that looked at their circumstances, I said I 576 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: will survive this today and this is how I'm going 577 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: to do it based on the options that I have. 578 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: That's so real. Yeah. So I actually know that we 579 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: have listeners who are sex workers who listen to the 580 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: show because they've written in and said, where is your 581 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: sexed episode? And I said, you are right, let's do one. 582 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: I know this is also probably like a very scary 583 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: and intense time for those folks. They're facing backlash, people 584 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: are are sort of saying saying all kinds of frankly 585 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: incorrect things about their industry. What can we do to 586 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: support sex workers at this time? And like, what do 587 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: you have a message out there for somebody who might 588 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: be listening who is going through like an understandably tough 589 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: time for folks that are treating sex out there. I think, 590 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, first and foremost, cheers to your resilience, um, 591 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: And I know a lot of people are scrambling and 592 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: they're figuring out the different ways to make it meet, 593 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: and they're figuring out what to do, And cheers to that, 594 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, cheers to your commitment to life and and 595 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: to making things work in the hardest of moments. Um, 596 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: is this thing I want to say first and foremost. UM. Second, 597 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: for folks start exploring new areas of the industry. UM, 598 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: and there's definitely resources out there. If you go to 599 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: Survivors againcessa dot org. UM, we have compiled just some 600 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: different safety material which includes things like you know about 601 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: bad management or screening and safety info for working in 602 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: a couple of different venues, as well as some safety 603 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: planning stuff. So I know that the information is out 604 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: there for how to stay safe if you're exploring something 605 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: new for the first time and definitely still connect to 606 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: your community. UM. You know, other people around you are 607 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: going to know some of the best information about different 608 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: places to work. You know how to work, and and 609 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: really connecting people face to face and and building those 610 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: relationships is going to be super important. And then you know, lastly, 611 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: and I really hate to say this, UM, but I 612 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: think it's really important that you know people this is 613 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: a moment of of fear and instability, and you know 614 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: what feels for a lot of people like scarcity. And 615 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: so if you feel like you have to shift the 616 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: way that you're doing things or take on clients that 617 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: you didn't want to, if you feel like that that 618 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: is something that you have to do and something happens, 619 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: it's still not your fault, and there are hotlines to 620 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: call for support. But know that, you know, if you 621 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 1: made a different decision that you usually do because that's 622 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: what you felt like you had to do, it doesn't 623 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: undermine if something does go wrong, and it doesn't undermine 624 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: those feelings, and those feelings you're still valid. And then 625 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: to folks start that knows that they have sex workers 626 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: in their lives, you know, just reach out and say, 627 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: how can I support you? Now? It's best we didn't 628 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: do that is and so you know, especially if you 629 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: have kids, like being able to call someone who's not 630 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: going to side at you or throw a shade at 631 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: nine o'clock at night to come watch your kids for 632 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: two hours like me really hard, and so you know, 633 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 1: offers things like childcare, offer a ride. You know, if 634 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: people musing it doesn't we're a little bit farther out. 635 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: It's little things that just make life a little easier 636 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: that really often remind people that while there's a lot 637 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: of really harsh and really upsetting things being said about sexberg, 638 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: there are people that still genuinely care and that does 639 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: really make a difference. Okay, where can folks find out 640 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: more about what you're up to, and um, you know, 641 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: stay in touch with you online. UM, if you want to. 642 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm terrible at Twitter, but not true. I I love 643 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: your tweets. Oh I am so old. But like learning 644 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: Twitter and like having people uh do like your hashtag 645 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: is really long, or learning a tweet for the first time. 646 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: It's been a magical experience. UM. So I'm at Kate 647 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: dodonald kay t d A d A m O on Twitter. Um. 648 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: Also the website Survivors against Us to how as a 649 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: lot of different information on it. And you know, I 650 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: do my best to get back to the folks that 651 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: reach out to me. UM, and I can't. I'll do 652 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: my best to be timely. UM, but we really try. 653 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: Which is a really important and really amazing, really beautiful community. 654 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: So I'm always excited to find out more people who 655 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 1: are in much community. Thanks so much, Kate. I really 656 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: really appreciate you being here with us today. Thank you. 657 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: Speaking of people in the community, we have another interview 658 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: with someone from the community, but first one more quick 659 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. 660 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So we're going to be talking to 661 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: Erica kine Erica is a thirty one year old Chicago 662 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: Land creative, a dance teacher, and a sex worker who 663 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: relies predominantly on her job as a sex worker to 664 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: support herself and help support her household. She has experienced 665 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: in exotic dance, full service sex work, adult film, and 666 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,959 Speaker 1: camera modeling. She's an advocate for sex workers right She's 667 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: an activist with a strong focus on black sex workers 668 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: and working conditions experience, and we're very happy to have 669 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: her with us today. So right out the gate, you 670 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: do a lot. What it's what is it like being you? UM? 671 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: Exhausting and UM full of very interesting conversations, that's for sure. 672 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: So today we have been talking about SESTA. Um has 673 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: SESTA already impacted your work or the work of other 674 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: folks in the industry? And if so, how, UM I'd say, 675 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: for me and for um other sex workers that I'm seeing, 676 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: whether I know them or not, just period um take 677 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: online uh a lot of change of emails or switching, 678 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: um you know and coasting your website. UM. You know 679 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: a lot of folks who are ind performers for instance, 680 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: like who do UM the dog concepts? And who working 681 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: in our pornogasy. For instance, a your website here in 682 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: the US are being effectives where a lot of them 683 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: have to see coasting sites that are outside of the 684 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: US UM, which of course is like more money, more labor. UM. 685 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of sites getting shut down or 686 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: certain areas of sites being shut down, or as far 687 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: as UM can't workers are concerned a lot of payments 688 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: UH apps like taxum for paioneer, and this is for 689 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: UM maybe like websites that are US based but they 690 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: have models that aren't here UM. This is how they 691 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: get their payments through direct deposits. So the only other 692 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: option outside is this would be waiting for a check 693 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: for an extended period of time or not being able 694 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: to work with the website period So making the arrangements 695 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: around that UM. And then as far as like escort 696 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: agencies UM, people who as ancer personal act on creditlist 697 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,439 Speaker 1: or arrows. Being able to have conversations with other sex 698 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: workers about your work or the possible danger or just 699 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: making sure you're checking in and the other made it 700 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: safely is being affected. UM. You're saying a lot of 701 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: panics too, which is UM understandably so UM. Outside of 702 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,959 Speaker 1: that UM, anyone who would like want to do ending work. 703 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: For instance, like you're associated with a can site or um, 704 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: you know, you work under a particular company. It's a 705 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: little bit harder now to break apart from that. So 706 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: this is more of people who are getting like a 707 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: certain percentage of their earnings taken away from them, UM, 708 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 1: who would like to like get outside of that, certainly 709 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: being affected, being discouraged from being able to break away 710 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: from trump needs into your own independent work. And UM 711 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: you already seeing before a sextain vosta that in certain 712 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: areas of the United States, So this is another areas 713 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: period that they have certain laws in place where UM 714 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: before this, like sex workers aren't able to work together, 715 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: carrying a certain amount of cons ands on you is suspicious, 716 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: or being dressed a certain way in certain areas of 717 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,919 Speaker 1: a particular city, um should earn you a spot new 718 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,760 Speaker 1: jail or prison. Um, even if you're not a sex worker. 719 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: And that's where this is really important for people who 720 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: aren't even associated with sex work. UM, this is going 721 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: to affect people who um you know, who are on 722 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: dating sites even UM, so you're gonna affect people who 723 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: dressed a particular way, people who are associated with particular 724 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 1: intersections or marginalized on this planet, in in the United 725 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: States who have the freedom of speech or the freedoms 726 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: who do as they wish on online spaces to sort 727 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: of pay came away the immunity that these websites have, 728 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,959 Speaker 1: so now they're unable to handle, you know, like things 729 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: like lawsuits associated with this, which is now going to 730 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: be a thing. So you're saying websites that are even 731 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: acting ahead of time and getting rid of certain themes, 732 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: that are replacing certain parts of their websites that make 733 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: it really user friendly or make it possible for sex 734 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: workers to even utilize or promote their work or markets themselves. Wow. 735 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: So something that I was kind of struck by in 736 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: listening to your response to that question is how innovative 737 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: a lot of these folks have to be online that 738 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: you don't know if you know, you wake up tomorrow 739 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: and the website that you use to make your living, 740 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: make your livelihood, support your family, support yourself could be 741 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: gone overnight, and that it really kind of takes a 742 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: level of hustle, And I guess the only phrase that 743 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: comes to mind is digital innovation. To sort of stay 744 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: a step ahead of that, you shouldn't have to, you know, 745 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: if you're just trying to make a living. But I'm 746 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: really struck by the way that folks have found ways 747 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 1: of persevering in spite of being kind of you know, 748 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: cracked down on we're just trying to make a living. 749 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of while you're thing if I'm 750 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,240 Speaker 1: just thinking of how sex workers are using these online 751 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 1: spaces while we can to sort of mobilize and um, 752 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: you know, speak with one another and share our experiences 753 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: and um, something I'm seeing right now is um the 754 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: move to splitters, which is of social media app now 755 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: through Mathodon I believe close to be your site that's 756 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: actually sex worker friendly and that support what's going on 757 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: as far as you know what we're speaking about. Seeing 758 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people online now who are even having 759 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 1: to use like um funding apps which aren't so sex 760 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: worker friendly in the first place, to sort of play 761 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: bills and um, you know, navigates this really tough period 762 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: and seeing like sex workers get it together just where 763 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: to get that done, um, which I've personally experienced myself 764 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of other sex workers on seeing right now, um, 765 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: you know, just trying to navigate this financially is a 766 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,240 Speaker 1: lot and then switching over to different social media apps 767 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: from having to delete images and um, you know a 768 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: lot of us as far as cam sites are concerned, 769 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: because that's where the bulk of my financial and co is, 770 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, camp site and web cam and adult content 771 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: right and so um, as far as that's you started 772 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: being able to um, you know, having an auto tweet system, 773 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: which is very helpful. So if someone purchases content, for instance, 774 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: if someone's kipps or someone we use a positive review 775 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: or something just to be auto tweeted onto my work 776 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: accounts and then just to drive more traffic to either 777 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: the side I work for or my own site or 778 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: where you could purchase content, so on, so forth, supporting 779 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,879 Speaker 1: my work artistry. But um, you know, now I'm seeing 780 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are disconnecting that and not 781 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,720 Speaker 1: utilizing that is a pro more marketing tool anymore because 782 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: you could get them flags um or shadow game deven 783 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: or have you. So yeah, I can I can only 784 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: imagine how tough that is. So so one of the 785 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: things when I first came across your work, you tweet 786 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: a lot about the importance of making sure that marginalized 787 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: sex workers are at the center of this conversation, and 788 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 1: that seems to be something that is easy to sort 789 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,399 Speaker 1: of get lost in these conversations. Why do you feel 790 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 1: like it's so important for marginalized voices to be heard 791 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: in this space? And also, how are marginalized sex workers 792 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: more disproportionately impacted? Um, marginalized sex workers are concerned. These 793 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: are the people who, as far as dusting Boston this conversation, 794 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: they're going to be affected the most and the hardest 795 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: and the quickest and um, and this is season without 796 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: distant place. As far as child sex workers are criminalized, 797 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: policing and all of those things. UM, it's you know, black, brown, indigenous, UH, 798 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 1: people of colors who work in the sex industry, trans, 799 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: non binary, non gender conforming, homeless, houseless, UM, you know, disabled, UM, 800 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,240 Speaker 1: folks living in realities where mental health is a thing 801 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,799 Speaker 1: and getting to therapy or getting medication or um you know, 802 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: navigating that period um and keeping their minds five or 803 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: um you know, juggling multiple jobs at a time with 804 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: those realities. These are people who are going to be 805 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: most effective. And as far as them being disproport disproportionately impacted, UM, 806 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's marginal aspects workers and the areas that 807 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: they work, the sex workspaces that you find in them 808 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: that are being policed the hardest, being policed in ways 809 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: that are insane, men that are they're not constitutional at all. 810 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: And we're seeing this right now and New Oriens for instance, 811 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: with the rage that of being lawns and strips clothes. 812 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: We're seeing this in New York UM with black and 813 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: brown UH excited answers who are on strike because of 814 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: the work environment and conditions that they're doing. If we're 815 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: seeing this UM here in Chicago, for instance, with UM, 816 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: you know a lot of the rates that go on 817 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: on the South Side, which is where a lot of 818 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,760 Speaker 1: the black and brown you know, predominantly black and brown 819 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: clubs are where a lot of the black and brown 820 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: vice districts are. UM. This is where you're seeing a 821 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: lot more sex workers who would be associated with fools 822 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 1: service work who are doing their full service work on 823 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: the street, who are not associated with escort agencies or 824 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 1: particular sites that you know, put security or a certain 825 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 1: type of you know, screening process and in place that 826 00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: would be safer UM. And then this would also foreign 827 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: marginal assets workers who are working in UM you know, 828 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: certain areas of sex works that are legal or that 829 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: are you know, for instance, UM strippers, people who are 830 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: working on camp sites. Right, what happens if these particular 831 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: environments don't exist for them or they're not as safe 832 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: or if laws to you know, prevent them from being 833 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,720 Speaker 1: able to do their jobs or being able to promoke 834 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 1: them soils being able to survive. And you have this 835 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: large chunk because you're not recognized as an actual worker. 836 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 1: UM you know, so going to get an devide with 837 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,879 Speaker 1: a huge chunk on your resume missing your part? And 838 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: what do you think the options for you know, those 839 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: sex workers are going to be and what sort of 840 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: conditions you think are gonna um? You know these sex 841 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: workers who are full service schech workers who are working 842 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 1: on the streets, who are working you know already and 843 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:53,240 Speaker 1: very harsh conditions, who are you know, just struggling to 844 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: make it through the build cycle and maybe not even 845 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: that because there is no bill, because they're dealing with 846 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,919 Speaker 1: home that's missing the house right. UM. You know it's 847 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,120 Speaker 1: understandably so that you know marginal effect workers very much 848 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,800 Speaker 1: so are distrusted of UM. You know, anyone who would 849 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 1: work in UM, you know and there's there's like, uh, 850 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement, particularly cops. Uh. There's a lot of the 851 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,320 Speaker 1: harm that is inflicted on sex workers particularly UM do 852 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,800 Speaker 1: more marginal effect workers. You know, they're dealing with cops 853 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,239 Speaker 1: who are inflicting harm on this And how do you 854 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: trust those particular individuals. How do you trust the individuals 855 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,399 Speaker 1: who are creating legislation without you in mind or your 856 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,760 Speaker 1: survival or your safety of mind to actually create something 857 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: that you know is liberical. Yeah, and working off that point, 858 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,400 Speaker 1: it seems like one of the biggest issues with bad 859 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: legislation like SESSA is that they aren't including people in 860 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 1: the industry when they put together policies that will impact 861 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,720 Speaker 1: that industry. If you were shaping education Paul See for example, 862 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: you'd want some folks with an education background on the team, 863 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: I would hope. Why do you think so often folks 864 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,239 Speaker 1: with no background in sex work are the ones making 865 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: the policies, legislation, guidelines that impact those people, the sex 866 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:20,760 Speaker 1: workers are such a good question, aside from the obvious, 867 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 1: which would be association with sex work, right, UM, I 868 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 1: would say the statement attached to sex work and to 869 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 1: those who have experiences with sex works, UM, you know 870 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 1: you go from sex workers being viewed as this morally 871 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: corrupt group, right, um, who are left in German? And 872 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: then that goes from you know that to the view 873 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,840 Speaker 1: of sex workers is less deserving a certain basic human 874 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:52,279 Speaker 1: rights um being handled in you know, certain ways that 875 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,600 Speaker 1: we would with anyone else outside of that industry. Um. 876 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,359 Speaker 1: You know, it goes from that to you know, doing 877 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 1: sex workers less deserving of base to human rights? And 878 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,239 Speaker 1: then if that's the case, and we don't use them 879 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: as human in the first place, and how do you 880 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,920 Speaker 1: use them as capable of being able to add to 881 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: the conversations with being you know, bringing something productive to 882 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,920 Speaker 1: the table, um of being able to speak for themselves, 883 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: even being able to you know, have conversations around us 884 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:25,359 Speaker 1: and actually provide uh insights about what they're experiencing, what's 885 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: going on that they know to be the case. Um. 886 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: I would say that that would be believed of it. Um. 887 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 1: I mean, and you could take out sex work and 888 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: put in any marginalized group of people here in the 889 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 1: United States, right And and we could say that here 890 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,880 Speaker 1: you could take out sex workers and just putting people 891 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,560 Speaker 1: of color and and ask why aren't there are more 892 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,839 Speaker 1: people of color? You know, creating the policy of legislations 893 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,960 Speaker 1: and guides. Aren't that impact them? And we could talk 894 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,920 Speaker 1: about you know, uh, the history of this country and 895 00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:02,800 Speaker 1: anti blackness or racism, um, you know, white supremacy, and 896 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: you know ideas that circulated around, um, you know the 897 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:12,240 Speaker 1: sort of country that uh, we're built prom the laser 898 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,759 Speaker 1: of marginalized beings that everything in the tunity being in 899 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:20,800 Speaker 1: first place? Yea, how do you then view those beings 900 00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,800 Speaker 1: of being able to add to a conversation that, um, 901 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,319 Speaker 1: you know it's centered around there's devisors and well beings 902 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: and uh, their basic human rights. That's so true. So 903 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,080 Speaker 1: so something that you mentioned in your answer that I 904 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: that I kind of can't help but think about is 905 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned stigma. So obviously a big part of the 906 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: fight is de stigmatizing sex work so that people don't 907 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: feel that if you're involved in the sex the sex 908 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,520 Speaker 1: work industry, that you're not deserving of basic humanity. Right. 909 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: So my question is, let's say that I'm not a 910 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,839 Speaker 1: sex worker and I'm not a client, what role can 911 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,600 Speaker 1: I play in the stigmatizing sex work? Just anybody who 912 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,319 Speaker 1: was not who was not involved in the industry. I mean, 913 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 1: what we're doing now is very important. Um, you know, 914 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,719 Speaker 1: allowing sex workers to share their experiences and conversations. Um. 915 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 1: That involved laws and um, you know, legislation that directly 916 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:22,759 Speaker 1: affects them, um, supporting their work, which doesn't necessarily mean 917 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:24,440 Speaker 1: that you have to go to the shirt club very 918 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,120 Speaker 1: by foreign or something and that's not what you're into, bluyre, 919 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, put your money where sure right right, there's 920 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 1: actually there was a there was a great piece and 921 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,479 Speaker 1: Rewire that was just you know, had to be cool 922 00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,719 Speaker 1: to your sex worker and it's like be on time tip. 923 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,440 Speaker 1: Well it's like bait. It's like, oh yeah, basic courtesy 924 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: that you would any anyone really, but put on deodorant no, um, 925 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,160 Speaker 1: like you could. You know, for instance, I see a 926 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:05,200 Speaker 1: lot of sex workers, especially on online state like Twitter, Facebook, tumbler, um, Instagram. Um, 927 00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,479 Speaker 1: you know in all lanes of sex work to who 928 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,799 Speaker 1: are they're also writers and their bloggers a bloggers and 929 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: their artists. They paint and they sing and you know 930 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 1: they do all of these other amazing things. Um. They 931 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, do channel discussions and they talk about um, 932 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 1: you know the history of queer representation and foreign and 933 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, all of these amazing things and UM it's 934 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,040 Speaker 1: always cool to you know, do small things like retweet 935 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 1: their work, like get UM you know, also pay attention 936 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: to what they're saying in these conversations. UM make sure 937 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,520 Speaker 1: that UM, you know, you keep an open mind and 938 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,400 Speaker 1: you hear what it you know what it is that 939 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: they're saying, regardless of what your views are on sex 940 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,880 Speaker 1: work and those who are involved in sex work, it's UM, 941 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 1: you know, a conversation to allow sex workers to take 942 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,960 Speaker 1: the floor and UM you know, providing that for them. 943 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:09,200 Speaker 1: If you are UM you know usis and resolution, or 944 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: you're particularly invested in m the rights of marginalized beings 945 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,319 Speaker 1: at particular intersections, you know, you can't be for that. 946 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: If you're not for sex works, you can't be for that, 947 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,920 Speaker 1: if you're not for black sex workers, trans sex workers, UH, 948 00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:28,680 Speaker 1: non gender conforming sex workers, marginalized sex workers who are 949 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:33,000 Speaker 1: UM you know, putting their art out there, their thoughts, 950 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,240 Speaker 1: who are very much so interested in socio political issues 951 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 1: and are very much so able to have those conversations. 952 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 1: So UM, I would also say, if you're having conversations 953 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,240 Speaker 1: with those who are not UM involved in sex works 954 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,160 Speaker 1: or who don't really understand what's going on right now 955 00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: with Seter or what just happened with boss as well, 956 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:58,120 Speaker 1: then maybe having conversations with them about it M or 957 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 1: when it comes up you know, um, you know, kind 958 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 1: of taking a stand if something is being said that 959 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,480 Speaker 1: is a misconception that you know not to be true, 960 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,919 Speaker 1: or um, you know, directing them to someone's words that 961 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,960 Speaker 1: would allow them to expand their understanding themes. And I 962 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,280 Speaker 1: would say, um, more importantly to show love and support 963 00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 1: and understand that sex workers get things done and UM, 964 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:31,080 Speaker 1: they to really use um people who would show up 965 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,920 Speaker 1: to their protests, their rallies, you know, the work that 966 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,680 Speaker 1: they're doing to make sure that um, it's understood that 967 00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,200 Speaker 1: they want basic human rights that they too want to 968 00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:45,160 Speaker 1: work in you know, conditions and environments that are healthy 969 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,919 Speaker 1: and that are supportive and conducive to what they're trying 970 00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:52,120 Speaker 1: to do and that don't strip away what we're supposed 971 00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,719 Speaker 1: to be giving to them in a constitution. And this 972 00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 1: isn't just the sex sex workers too, so this would 973 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:02,759 Speaker 1: be you know, de stigmatizing sex workers is also destigmatizing um, 974 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, certain ideas around women for instance, for queer identity, 975 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:15,759 Speaker 1: for um, blackness, black womanhood, black queer womanhood and and 976 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,239 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. What you're doing right now 977 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,239 Speaker 1: is really important and I think it's a huge depth. 978 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,600 Speaker 1: I thank you. My head was about to fall off. 979 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,719 Speaker 1: I was nodding so hard what you were saying, he 980 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:33,680 Speaker 1: was so well put. UM going back to something in 981 00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 1: your answer, you you mentioned, UM, misconception and how there 982 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 1: are a lot of misconceptions about sex work and sex workers. UM, 983 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,200 Speaker 1: what would you say is some of the biggest misconceptions 984 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,600 Speaker 1: about the work that you do. The first thing would 985 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,960 Speaker 1: be that isn't work, but there's no work involved. This 986 00:56:53,120 --> 00:57:01,640 Speaker 1: is the easiest thing ever and it's UM, it's a 987 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,840 Speaker 1: lot to UM, I don't know, it's a lot to 988 00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:10,319 Speaker 1: you know, get ready or to prepare yourself or to 989 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 1: be in the state of mind to entertain people or um. 990 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:18,320 Speaker 1: A lot of sex work is also therapy and UM, 991 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,080 Speaker 1: you know I've seen sex work the guys where raky 992 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:26,480 Speaker 1: dealers or their psychologists or and who really are these 993 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: things as that from sex workers or um, you know, 994 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,920 Speaker 1: promoting yourself, marketing yourself, UM, you know, get you some 995 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,560 Speaker 1: new hook here, all of those things. That's that's work. UM. 996 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,480 Speaker 1: You know, the physical labor involved, emotional intellectual labor is 997 00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: all involved in sex work. UM. Another one would be 998 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:52,080 Speaker 1: the idea that like racism, homophobia, transphobia, UM, besogyny somehow 999 00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,120 Speaker 1: stopped at the doors of strip clubs, or its stopped 1000 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,480 Speaker 1: when you go on to an escort website, or it 1001 00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,439 Speaker 1: stops when you start watching horn. And I'm sure if 1002 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,439 Speaker 1: you grow down you know on um you know, any 1003 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 1: review fight, or if you go to a strip club, 1004 00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,640 Speaker 1: or if you've you know, seeing a stroll, like racism 1005 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:16,600 Speaker 1: is very clear. Um, you know, the misogyny is very 1006 00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:21,280 Speaker 1: clear in these environments, and it affects UM, how we work, 1007 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,040 Speaker 1: how we're able to work, and um, you know, ultimately 1008 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:29,439 Speaker 1: how other view are worked too and view us, which 1009 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:33,240 Speaker 1: has a huge part of why people don't even understand 1010 00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,320 Speaker 1: why it's important that we fight those like that. I'd 1011 00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 1: say another thing, like another huge misconception of sex workers 1012 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 1: is that they're incapable of being good parents. They're incapable 1013 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,800 Speaker 1: of being around children periods. UM, that there's somehow going 1014 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:52,600 Speaker 1: to corrupt the youth, UM, teach them how to work 1015 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,200 Speaker 1: on below and then send them home to their parents 1016 00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,160 Speaker 1: or something. UM. And I've seen a lot of sex 1017 00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:03,520 Speaker 1: workers who are great parents who are uh you know, teachers, 1018 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,880 Speaker 1: or who are artists who work with children, Um, you know, 1019 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:13,479 Speaker 1: who have nieces and nephews that they love and they're 1020 00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,480 Speaker 1: human like everybody else. And um, I don't know. Those 1021 00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:22,440 Speaker 1: a huge misconceptions. I think maybe that, um, you know, 1022 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,040 Speaker 1: it's not worth it if you're not living in luxury. 1023 00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,120 Speaker 1: It's another one like that you should like hide your 1024 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,640 Speaker 1: sex work in shame if you're not earning a certain 1025 00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 1: amount of money, like I've seen that a lot in 1026 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:37,880 Speaker 1: sex work documentaries, even from sex workers who shame other 1027 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,080 Speaker 1: sex workers, like what are you doing this for if 1028 00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,800 Speaker 1: you don't even have this that or the other, if 1029 00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,080 Speaker 1: you don't own this, or if you're not making this 1030 00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,120 Speaker 1: amount each rip or each night. And the truth doesn't 1031 00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,440 Speaker 1: matter is this is a job like anything else, and 1032 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,320 Speaker 1: like everyone else. A lot of us are you know 1033 00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,760 Speaker 1: there be making it through the build cycles. Some of 1034 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,720 Speaker 1: us are struggling to pay tuition. Some of us are 1035 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,760 Speaker 1: taking care of relatives and you know, loved ones who 1036 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,200 Speaker 1: need us, and we don't have much left after the 1037 01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,920 Speaker 1: first in the fifteenth like a lot of other people. 1038 01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:13,280 Speaker 1: So Erica, what about folks who think that this legislations 1039 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:15,800 Speaker 1: will actually crack down on trafficking do you think it 1040 01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:20,080 Speaker 1: actually will? Um? This will affect the ability for those 1041 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,280 Speaker 1: who are getting trafficed to seek helped on online site. 1042 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,600 Speaker 1: So it is certain search words or keywords or um 1043 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,920 Speaker 1: conversations are no longer you know allowed, or if it 1044 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,880 Speaker 1: becomes suspicious right and that you can flag your account 1045 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,080 Speaker 1: get it taken down or have you shadowed band what 1046 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,720 Speaker 1: have you? Then? How would one who um you know 1047 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:42,600 Speaker 1: as being forced to work in sex work, who only 1048 01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,680 Speaker 1: have the ability to text real quick, you know, maybe 1049 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,600 Speaker 1: on an app, or you know, have conversations with you know, 1050 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,040 Speaker 1: other people they may know about this. How would a 1051 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,880 Speaker 1: sex worker who is um you know, maybe not traffic, 1052 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:57,280 Speaker 1: but who you know is dealing with some sort of 1053 01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:01,360 Speaker 1: violent situation? How would they seek help? Is online you're 1054 01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,080 Speaker 1: not allowed to have these sort of conversations or even 1055 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:08,040 Speaker 1: rallying together or supporting one another isn't allowed. UM. So 1056 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,280 Speaker 1: that's just something else I wanted to add, is that 1057 01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,200 Speaker 1: just does exactly the opposite of what it claims it's 1058 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 1: supposed to do, which is helps those who are being 1059 01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,560 Speaker 1: traffic to help sex workers. UM. But even though this 1060 01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:20,920 Speaker 1: isn't for sex workers, who would be endangered. This puts 1061 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,560 Speaker 1: them more so in dangerous sex workers as well as 1062 01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:26,919 Speaker 1: those who are forced into sex work and doing sex 1063 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,919 Speaker 1: work non consensually. Well, Erika, I can't thank you enough 1064 01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,480 Speaker 1: for being here today. Your words were so powerful and 1065 01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,760 Speaker 1: I think you probably I mean, I hope that if 1066 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:39,160 Speaker 1: someone out there is listening who had a misconception about 1067 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,560 Speaker 1: sex work, I hope that you helped to de stigmatize 1068 01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,320 Speaker 1: the work and also open some minds a little bit, 1069 01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,280 Speaker 1: I hope. So you've definitely definitely opened my mind. So 1070 01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,160 Speaker 1: I I really appreciate you being here. Where can folks 1071 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:55,280 Speaker 1: keep up with you and find out what's up to? Um? 1072 01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,000 Speaker 1: I have a few writing conjects when I'm working on 1073 01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,840 Speaker 1: and I'm also a dance feature, so I'm going back 1074 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 1: to corey oiography and things like that, hoarding and sing 1075 01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,040 Speaker 1: into your pop in structuring for a doctor of course, 1076 01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,640 Speaker 1: and um you can find me on Twitter at uggle 1077 01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:15,720 Speaker 1: cunt that is cunt ruggle r E V E l 1078 01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,840 Speaker 1: l E s U n T. Well Smithy listeners, we 1079 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:22,880 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. What are your thoughts on SESTA? 1080 01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,560 Speaker 1: Are you skeptical that this legislation will actually help curb trafficking. 1081 01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:28,960 Speaker 1: Are you involved in the sex work industry We want 1082 01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:30,840 Speaker 1: to hear let us know. You can find us on 1083 01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,080 Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, on Instagram at Stuff I've 1084 01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,080 Speaker 1: Never Told You, and as always, be loved getting your 1085 01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:49,120 Speaker 1: emails at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com