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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you inside an analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. The people of

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Speaker 1: the ninth Congressional District in North Carolina will have to

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Speaker 1: wait until September at least to talk to their representative.

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Speaker 1: State officials have ordered a redo following evidence of ballot

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Speaker 1: fraud during November's voting. Joining me is Josh Douglas, professor

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Speaker 1: at the University of Kentucky College of Law. His new

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Speaker 1: book is Vote for Us, How to take Back our

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Speaker 1: Elections and Change the future of voting. Josh, how unusual

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Speaker 1: is it to have a federal election nullified and redone

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Speaker 1: because of fraud? Do I think it is pretty unusual? Um,

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Speaker 1: I can't think of a recent example in the past

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Speaker 1: couple of years. At least the most common example I

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Speaker 1: can think of with a Miami mayor election from nineteen nine,

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Speaker 1: also involving absentee ballot fraud that eventually had to be redone.

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Speaker 1: So it's not unprecedented, but it's pretty rare. But the

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Speaker 1: fraud here was so obvious that even the Republican candidate

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Speaker 1: who benefited finally admitted that a new election should be held.

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Speaker 1: The election board hearings were remarkable, including the son of

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Speaker 1: the winner testifying what was the most important testimony, Well,

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Speaker 1: the sun testimony was really riveting because he said that

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Speaker 1: he raised red flags about this political operative guy named

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Speaker 1: Doubtless in his prior actions that were questionable in prior elections,

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Speaker 1: and yet the candidate marks still moved forward and used him.

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Speaker 1: But I think the most damning evidence was simply a

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Speaker 1: combination of the statistical studies that showed that these absentee

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Speaker 1: ballots couldn't be explained by anything other than fraud, as

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Speaker 1: well as the evidence of individuals, individual voters who you know,

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Speaker 1: admitted to giving their ballots to someone to then deliver

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Speaker 1: without knowing exactly what had happened with those ballots. So

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Speaker 1: this has nothing to do with the voter ID policies

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Speaker 1: that are being pushed in so many states. Oh absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: I mean a voter ID policy, And in fact, North

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Speaker 1: Carolina has a pretty strict voter ID policy, um, and

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Speaker 1: it didn't do anything to prevent the fraud. And to

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Speaker 1: hear some people I think mtch McConnell said on the

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Speaker 1: sentence floor or something about how we need a strict

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Speaker 1: voter ID law to prevent this sort of thing, but

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Speaker 1: that that's just are nonsense. I mean, the voter ID

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Speaker 1: law applies to only in person voting, not absentee or

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Speaker 1: mail in balloting. In an Elon University poll of North

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Speaker 1: Carolina registered voters, just more than half reported that they

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Speaker 1: thought election fraud was a major problem in that state.

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Speaker 1: What can be done going forward to make sure they

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Speaker 1: have confidence in the electoral system and to make sure

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Speaker 1: this doesn't happen again. Well, I think there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of things. I mean, first, that number I think

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Speaker 1: reflects the frenzy over voter fraud that so many people

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Speaker 1: have that's peddled by various entities and individuals who you know,

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Speaker 1: drum up this idea that there's so much voter fraud.

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Speaker 1: It's a rampant from the president all the way down.

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Speaker 1: You know, after election even he was saying there was

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Speaker 1: three million illegal votes that they all happened to come

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Speaker 1: from California where he lost. But there's no evidence for that.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing we need to do is stop

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Speaker 1: believing these stories of ramp and voter fraud that have

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Speaker 1: no basis in fact. And then the second thing we

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Speaker 1: can do is we can target where voter fraud and

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Speaker 1: I hesitate a voter fraud because the North kind of

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Speaker 1: line example wasn't a voter fraud, it was election fraud.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the voters were trying to compile with the

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Speaker 1: rules and it was an unscrupulous operative who defrauded the

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Speaker 1: voters through this election fraud. So we can't drum up

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Speaker 1: with policies and there in place in various states to

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Speaker 1: make our mail in balloting system more secure. What about

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Speaker 1: voter education is that part of it? Well? Absolutely, I

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Speaker 1: mean voter education both on the fact that fraud is

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Speaker 1: not a huge component and voter fraud in particular is

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Speaker 1: not a huge component of our system is vital as

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Speaker 1: well as education as to the proper steps to fill

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Speaker 1: out your bout and to return it um and so

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Speaker 1: you know, many voters in North Carolina didn't realize that

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Speaker 1: the law doesn't allow them to give their ballot to

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Speaker 1: someone else to deliver. So certainly, voter education on just

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Speaker 1: the way we vote, while also making it easier to

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Speaker 1: comply with those rules I think would be really vital. So, Josh,

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Speaker 1: your book is called Vote for Us, How to take

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Speaker 1: back our Elections and change the future of voting. Tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about it, and what's your best advice? Sure?

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Speaker 1: So the book is out on April nine, and it

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Speaker 1: tells the stories, somewhat surprising stories of people I call

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Speaker 1: democracy champions who are working in their local communities to

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Speaker 1: make their elections better, to make them more inclusive, bring

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Speaker 1: more people into the political process. You have so much

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Speaker 1: what we hear about voting rights, just like in this

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Speaker 1: North Carolina example is jum and gloom, how we're making

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Speaker 1: it harder to vote and voter suppression is taking over,

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Speaker 1: and that's concerning, of course, but we also have to

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Speaker 1: take the next step of promoting positive voting rights reforms.

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Speaker 1: And so the book tells the stories of these individuals

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Speaker 1: who are focusing on these things, things like improving universal

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Speaker 1: vote by mail are also known as a vote at home,

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Speaker 1: which handful states used that increases turnout substantially without having

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Speaker 1: a fraud concern, or independent redistricting commissions, and how those

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Speaker 1: have sort of taken hold and made sure that politicians

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Speaker 1: can't be the ones to draw the boundaries, voter registration

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Speaker 1: using automatic vote registration or saying day registration. These are

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Speaker 1: all positive reforms that make it easier to participate and

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Speaker 1: ultimately improve turnout. About a minute here, Josh, what are

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Speaker 1: your concerns for the elections? Interference from other countries, voting machines, malfunctioning,

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Speaker 1: poor ballot designs, long lines, voter suppression. The list goes on, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's probably more than a minute that that we would

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Speaker 1: need to cover sort of all of the issues, But

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Speaker 1: to me, the number one issue would be voter apathy

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Speaker 1: and low voter turnout. Um, you know, when we have

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Speaker 1: just over half the country deciding who wins an election,

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Speaker 1: that's particularly concerning for me, and so I think we

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Speaker 1: need to adopt these policies that that fixed that. But

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Speaker 1: also we do need to be vigilant about Russian or

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Speaker 1: other interference in the election. Thanks for being on Bloomberg Law, Josh.

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Speaker 1: That's Josh Douglas, a professor at the University of Kentucky

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Speaker 1: College of Law. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com. Slash Podcast. I'm June Brasso.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Ye