WEBVTT - Adam Grant Thinks Again 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:33.556 Pushkin. People generally assume that they're less biased than others. Right. 0:00:33.596 --> 0:00:36.636 This is my favorite bias. It's that I'm not biased biased, Right, 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:40.516 everybody else is biased. I am objective. I see things 0:00:40.676 --> 0:00:45.076 with perfect neutrality. That's Adam Grant. He's a psychologist and 0:00:45.156 --> 0:00:48.236 author of the book Think Again, and he's talking here 0:00:48.316 --> 0:00:51.956 about a surprising feature of our own psychology that prevents 0:00:52.036 --> 0:00:55.116 us from changing our minds even when we should. And 0:00:55.196 --> 0:00:58.196 I think that the higher your intelligence, the more likely 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:00.916 you are to fall victim to that bias. They're smarter 0:01:01.036 --> 0:01:03.476 you are, the more feedback you've gotten throughout your life 0:01:03.556 --> 0:01:06.716 that you're right, and that gives you an illusion of objectivity. 0:01:07.276 --> 0:01:09.596 I wanted to talk with Adam because he's an expert 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:12.556 on the science of changing people's minds, a topic we've 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:15.156 been diving into on this season of A Slight Change 0:01:15.156 --> 0:01:20.196 of Plans. We all have that friend, that family member 0:01:20.236 --> 0:01:22.916 that we disagree with on something, and it can feel 0:01:23.036 --> 0:01:25.956 daunting to engage with them on the topic, so daunting 0:01:26.076 --> 0:01:29.716 that oftentimes we just give up. In this episode, we're 0:01:29.716 --> 0:01:33.116 trying to change that. Adam and I discuss science based 0:01:33.116 --> 0:01:36.556 tactics that you can use to approach these conversations differently 0:01:36.956 --> 0:01:41.116 and hopefully with more success. I'm Maya Shunker and this 0:01:41.196 --> 0:02:04.836 is a slight change of plans. Well, it's great to 0:02:04.876 --> 0:02:07.596 meet you, Adam. Great to meet you. I've been hearing 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:11.036 about you for years. I'm so excited that you're able 0:02:11.036 --> 0:02:13.796 to join us for this podcast. I'm just eager to 0:02:13.836 --> 0:02:15.996 pick your brain today. Well, my brain is sitting here 0:02:16.036 --> 0:02:19.596 waiting to be picked. Awesome. Okay. We don't like changing 0:02:19.596 --> 0:02:23.076 our minds, right, It's uncomfortable, it can create a lot 0:02:23.116 --> 0:02:25.876 of cognitive dissonance. It takes a lot of hard work, 0:02:25.916 --> 0:02:29.036 and so it's just easier to live our lives in 0:02:29.076 --> 0:02:33.356 an unreflective mode where we persistently believe what we believe 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:35.676 and we double down, and we surround ourselves with people 0:02:35.716 --> 0:02:38.636 who help us double down on those beliefs over time. Yeah. 0:02:38.836 --> 0:02:41.476 And one of the things that I loved about the 0:02:41.516 --> 0:02:45.076 focus of your book is that it opens with ideas 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:47.916 of how we can get ourselves to have an more 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:52.236 open mind, ourselves to rethink things. So one reason you 0:02:52.276 --> 0:02:54.996 say that we might not be open to rethinking is 0:02:55.076 --> 0:02:59.156 because we're overconfident. And you talk in your book about 0:02:59.276 --> 0:03:03.996 not confusing over confidence with competence. Do you mind saying 0:03:03.996 --> 0:03:08.116 a bit more about that? Sure? I think when people 0:03:08.156 --> 0:03:11.956 are lacking knowledge or skill, sometimes they also don't know 0:03:11.996 --> 0:03:14.756 what knowledge or skill looks like in that domain. Right, 0:03:14.836 --> 0:03:17.476 So if you know nothing, let's say, I always think 0:03:17.516 --> 0:03:19.996 about a Super Bowl party. You gather a bunch of 0:03:19.996 --> 0:03:23.076 football fans, and there's always one who's screaming at the 0:03:23.076 --> 0:03:26.076 coach for calling the wrong place. That is usually the 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:29.356 fan who knows the least about football. But it's a fan, 0:03:29.596 --> 0:03:31.636 it's not somebody who's, you know, who's not at all 0:03:31.676 --> 0:03:33.996 interested in the game, because they's not like me, who's 0:03:34.036 --> 0:03:38.636 just sitting at the food table profiting the entire time. Exactly. Yeah, 0:03:38.476 --> 0:03:40.716 you know that you know nothing. I'm not weighing in. No, 0:03:40.916 --> 0:03:43.956 you and you shouldn't, right, But if you if you 0:03:43.996 --> 0:03:46.116 watched a couple of games and you learned a little 0:03:46.156 --> 0:03:48.956 bit about football, that's when that tiny bit of knowledge 0:03:48.956 --> 0:03:52.436 can become a little bit dangerous, right because it you. 0:03:52.876 --> 0:03:55.556 What starts to happen is, as your knowledge grows, you 0:03:55.676 --> 0:03:58.956 confuse your rate of learning for how much you've actually learned, 0:03:59.196 --> 0:04:02.316 and your confidence rises faster than your competence, and pretty 0:04:02.356 --> 0:04:07.116 soon you're trapped on the summit of Mount Stupid where 0:04:06.836 --> 0:04:10.076 you know very little, but you don't know how little 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:13.956 you know. Yeah, you mentioned your book that imposter syndrome 0:04:13.996 --> 0:04:16.396 gets a bad rap, but actually there might be some 0:04:16.476 --> 0:04:19.836 silver linings to fueling imposter syndrome. Can you say a 0:04:19.836 --> 0:04:24.316 bit more about that, Yeah, I kind of. I was 0:04:24.356 --> 0:04:27.596 struck by this paradox that when you look at where 0:04:27.636 --> 0:04:30.996 imposter syndrome exists, one of the places it's most prevalent 0:04:31.156 --> 0:04:34.236 is among high achievers. And I think a lot of 0:04:34.276 --> 0:04:37.916 people have assumed that they've succeeded in spite of their doubts, 0:04:38.596 --> 0:04:41.076 and I started to wonder whether their doubts are actually 0:04:41.076 --> 0:04:43.876 helping to fuel their success. Well, maybe we don't have 0:04:43.956 --> 0:04:45.676 to turn this into a syndrome. Right when you call 0:04:45.716 --> 0:04:47.876 it imposter syndrome, it's like you have some kind of 0:04:47.956 --> 0:04:52.036 chronic disease, that is, it's just abilitating and it's with 0:04:52.076 --> 0:04:54.236 you at all times. We ended up having a doctoral 0:04:54.276 --> 0:04:55.996 student at Wark and Besima's too Fick, who is now 0:04:55.996 --> 0:05:01.316 an MT professor, and she studied how often people doubt themselves. 0:05:01.636 --> 0:05:05.396 She studied investment professionals and medical professionals and found no 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:09.316 consistent costs of having more frequent imposter thoughts and some 0:05:09.396 --> 0:05:13.156 surprising benefits. The investment professionals, when they felt like imposters 0:05:13.156 --> 0:05:16.676 more often, they actually made better decisions. The medical professionals 0:05:16.676 --> 0:05:19.996 who felt like imposters more often, they actually listened to 0:05:20.036 --> 0:05:23.956 their patients. And what was happening was when people felt 0:05:23.956 --> 0:05:27.196 those imposter thoughts, their confidence was a little bit below 0:05:27.276 --> 0:05:29.956 their competence, and that led them to work harder to 0:05:29.996 --> 0:05:32.796 prove themselves. It led them to work smarter to learn 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:35.436 new things, and it made them much more receptive to 0:05:35.476 --> 0:05:37.996 listening to other people, which filled gaps in their knowledge. 0:05:38.036 --> 0:05:42.036 And it almost makes me think that instead of trying 0:05:42.076 --> 0:05:44.836 to have our confidence match our competence perfectly, we are 0:05:44.876 --> 0:05:50.156 better off slightly underestimating ourselves. You know, there's a tension 0:05:50.196 --> 0:05:53.356 that can emerge here, right because I'm thinking about, for example, 0:05:53.436 --> 0:05:56.476 communities of color who fall prey to stereotype threat and 0:05:56.516 --> 0:06:00.316 the fact that boosting confidence in those cases is really 0:06:00.356 --> 0:06:03.596 productive because in many ways they're starting off in an 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:08.916 unreasonable position relative to their actual abilities. And so well, one, 0:06:08.916 --> 0:06:11.436 I'm just wondering in those studies that we're done, what 0:06:11.556 --> 0:06:13.996 were the demographics of the group. And two, in terms 0:06:13.996 --> 0:06:19.796 of prescriptions. Where is that appropriate line between humility and confidence, 0:06:19.916 --> 0:06:24.956 especially because some of these psychological effects can disproportionately hit 0:06:25.476 --> 0:06:27.676 different communities. Yeah, I think I think that's a really 0:06:27.676 --> 0:06:31.076 important question. And I think Bassima had good data on 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:34.076 gender less on race, but when she looked at gender differences, 0:06:34.756 --> 0:06:38.436 the odds were greater that women were sort of discouraged 0:06:38.516 --> 0:06:42.876 or debilitated by very frequent imposter thoughts, and men were 0:06:42.996 --> 0:06:45.236 much more likely to be motivated by them. And I 0:06:45.276 --> 0:06:48.916 think that tracks with everything we know about about basically 0:06:49.036 --> 0:06:50.956 the world I live in as a white man, which 0:06:50.996 --> 0:06:54.196 is people take for granted that I'm competent, whereas if 0:06:54.196 --> 0:06:56.036 you grow up as a woman, and I think this 0:06:56.156 --> 0:06:58.596 is obviously the case for people of color as well. 0:06:59.556 --> 0:07:02.116 It's you know, you have to prove your competence every day, 0:07:02.476 --> 0:07:05.596 and those doubts because other people are doubting you are 0:07:05.676 --> 0:07:08.276 more likely to get internalized over time. And I think 0:07:08.316 --> 0:07:10.356 your spot on that we need to work harder to 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:14.356 build confidence among people who are not white men. Does 0:07:14.396 --> 0:07:17.316 that Does that track with your experience? Yeah, I think 0:07:17.316 --> 0:07:21.356 it's it is, I would Freeman is just really complex. 0:07:21.956 --> 0:07:25.196 I mean, obviously there's no one size fits all approach here. 0:07:25.356 --> 0:07:29.116 But I do think that there are profound public policy implications, right, 0:07:29.116 --> 0:07:31.196 because if we're going on the road with a message 0:07:31.236 --> 0:07:34.716 of imposter syndromes good, we might find that that has 0:07:34.716 --> 0:07:39.836 a disproportionately negative effect on some subsets of the population, right, women, 0:07:39.956 --> 0:07:42.236 people of color, etc. And so we just have to 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:44.996 be careful about the messaging. I almost want the messaging 0:07:45.036 --> 0:07:50.516 to be imposter syndrome is good, white men. You know, 0:07:50.676 --> 0:07:53.396 I think a disclaimer is critical here. I would just 0:07:53.476 --> 0:07:56.436 I would rewrite that message completely. You don't have to 0:07:56.436 --> 0:07:59.836 take imposter syndrome as a curse. You can recognize that 0:07:59.876 --> 0:08:01.676 it's a double edged sword, and you can try to 0:08:02.276 --> 0:08:04.476 get some of those benefits of doubt to say, Okay, 0:08:04.916 --> 0:08:07.836 you know what, the fact that I am questioning myself 0:08:08.116 --> 0:08:10.396 means I'm not going to get complacent, and I think 0:08:10.396 --> 0:08:12.876 that's that's the message that I want to get across. Yeah, 0:08:12.956 --> 0:08:15.516 that makes sense. One of my favorite parts of the 0:08:15.556 --> 0:08:18.276 book was the fact that a smarter a person is, 0:08:18.756 --> 0:08:21.516 the faster they recognize patterns, and so the more likely 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:26.876 they are to notice and reinforce stereotypes. So you also 0:08:26.916 --> 0:08:31.156 mentioned that the smarter you are, the more likely you 0:08:31.196 --> 0:08:33.636 are to struggle with updating your beliefs right, to be 0:08:33.716 --> 0:08:37.916 willing to rethink. So what is the mechanism at play 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:41.876 in that ladder finding that would make that so? Well? 0:08:42.116 --> 0:08:45.436 People generally assume that they're less biased than others, right, 0:08:45.436 --> 0:08:48.516 This is my favorite bias. It's the I'm not biased biased, Right, 0:08:48.556 --> 0:08:52.356 everybody else is biased. I am objective. I see things 0:08:52.516 --> 0:08:57.196 with perfect neutrality. And I think that the higher your intelligence, 0:08:57.236 --> 0:08:59.236 the more likely you are to fall victim to that 0:08:59.276 --> 0:09:02.916 bias in the data. And I think there's probably the 0:09:02.996 --> 0:09:05.956 jury is still out on what the different mechanisms might be, 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:08.316 but I think I think one of them is that 0:09:08.796 --> 0:09:11.396 this smarter you are, the more feedback you've gotten throughout 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:13.916 your life that you're right, and that gives you an 0:09:13.956 --> 0:09:18.596 illusion of objectivity. What you know, what you're consistent right 0:09:18.636 --> 0:09:23.156 answers or a pluses or you know, genius level, like 0:09:23.276 --> 0:09:25.716 you're the smartest person I've ever met. Feedback, Yeah, is 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:28.836 really signaling is that you're good at thinking and learning, 0:09:29.116 --> 0:09:31.796 not that you're objective in the way that you process information. 0:09:31.996 --> 0:09:35.556 And I think people miss that distinction. Yeah, it's it's 0:09:35.556 --> 0:09:39.636 a reflection back to you. Ah, So the current mechanisms 0:09:39.636 --> 0:09:42.476 that I use to analyze information in the world are 0:09:42.516 --> 0:09:45.476 paying off because I keep getting the A plus. So 0:09:45.556 --> 0:09:49.916 clearly something's going well here exactly. Yeah, you're getting positive feedback. Interesting. Yeah, 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:53.676 it reminds me. I interviewed Megan Phelps Roper, who was 0:09:53.756 --> 0:09:56.676 part of the Westboro Baptist Church, which is a religious cult, 0:09:57.196 --> 0:10:00.356 and she eventually ended up leaving in her mid twenties. 0:10:00.396 --> 0:10:03.516 But I think one thing that compelled her to stay 0:10:03.596 --> 0:10:05.116 for so long is that she grew up in a 0:10:05.156 --> 0:10:10.516 family of lawyers. They were all very, very smart, highly educated, 0:10:10.996 --> 0:10:18.236 and their pride point was constructing these very logical arguments, 0:10:18.596 --> 0:10:20.756 and I mean logical in the definitional sense of the word. 0:10:21.636 --> 0:10:24.516 And as a result, I think there was some sort 0:10:24.556 --> 0:10:29.156 of reinforcing that was happening within the Phelps family. They're 0:10:29.276 --> 0:10:34.076 using sophisticated patterns and thinking and analysis, but because again 0:10:34.236 --> 0:10:38.156 their axioms or batshit crazy, they're reaching the wrong conclusions, 0:10:38.236 --> 0:10:42.516 but they are in their minds doubling down on those conclusions. 0:10:42.956 --> 0:10:45.756 Do you have thoughts on that. Yeah. I think one 0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:47.476 of the other risks of growing up in a family 0:10:47.516 --> 0:10:50.076 like that is you're taught from an early age to 0:10:50.796 --> 0:10:54.196 make your own arguments, and we forget that when you 0:10:54.236 --> 0:10:56.836 make an argument to persuade someone else, the person you're 0:10:56.876 --> 0:11:01.276 most likely to persuade is yourself because you trust yourself, right, 0:11:01.316 --> 0:11:03.716 you are a highly credible source in your own eyes, 0:11:04.356 --> 0:11:06.476 and you also came up with the reasons that you 0:11:06.556 --> 0:11:09.556 found most convincing, and as you explain them, you start 0:11:09.596 --> 0:11:11.596 to take ownership over them. Right. Part of that is 0:11:11.636 --> 0:11:14.716 cognitive dissonance. Well, I've said this out loud. I don't 0:11:14.716 --> 0:11:17.156 want to be a hypocrite, so now it becomes part 0:11:17.156 --> 0:11:22.796 of my belief system. And another reason why we do 0:11:22.876 --> 0:11:25.556 feel so much Adjita when it comes to admitting that 0:11:25.556 --> 0:11:30.116 we're wrong, is that we get deeply attached to quote 0:11:30.116 --> 0:11:33.036 our past selves who held those beliefs, and we do 0:11:33.116 --> 0:11:35.796 feel like a departure from that past self in some 0:11:35.836 --> 0:11:39.316 way poses a full on identity threat. So can you 0:11:39.356 --> 0:11:42.276 say more about the importance of trying to detach yourself 0:11:42.316 --> 0:11:46.436 from your past self. Yeah, there's there's a growing body 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:49.556 of evidence in psychology that people who feel quote unquote 0:11:49.556 --> 0:11:52.436 derailed that you know, I'm not I'm not quite the 0:11:52.476 --> 0:11:55.596 same person I was two or three years ago, they 0:11:55.636 --> 0:11:58.436 actually end up getting happier that you know, there's a 0:11:58.476 --> 0:12:02.276 little bit of a period of feeling unsettled, but then 0:12:02.316 --> 0:12:05.236 they realize, oh, I'm not going to let my old 0:12:05.356 --> 0:12:07.596 ideas of who I wanted to be hold me back. 0:12:07.996 --> 0:12:09.716 And I think one of the easiest ways to get 0:12:09.716 --> 0:12:13.796 comfortable with rethinking is to detach your current self from 0:12:13.836 --> 0:12:16.916 your old self. So there are so many times when 0:12:16.916 --> 0:12:20.436 I've looked back at my old decisions and opinions, I'm like, Wow, 0:12:21.156 --> 0:12:24.276 I should be really embarrassed by that. How can I 0:12:24.316 --> 0:12:27.636 possibly think that? And yet I mostly just laugh at 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:30.676 myself because I don't think I'm the same person. Yes, 0:12:30.716 --> 0:12:33.796 I realize I have fundamentally the same brain and the 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:36.156 same body, right, and it's still me. But I think 0:12:36.156 --> 0:12:37.916 I've grown and evolved in a lot of ways from 0:12:37.916 --> 0:12:40.276 that version of me, and so I don't feel like 0:12:40.316 --> 0:12:42.996 what I did with the ideas I had about my 0:12:43.036 --> 0:12:45.956 future and the opinions I held at twenty one are 0:12:46.036 --> 0:12:49.116 reflective of who I am now at thirty nine, even 0:12:49.156 --> 0:12:52.316 though some of my values are very similar. One a 0:12:52.396 --> 0:12:54.996 interesting flip on this, it's reminding me so In this 0:12:55.036 --> 0:12:58.836 interview with Megan fels Roper, who was mentioning, I asked 0:12:58.836 --> 0:13:01.796 her I said, when you look back on your life, right, 0:13:01.796 --> 0:13:04.356 you have this in the Westboro Baptist Church and then 0:13:04.396 --> 0:13:07.596 post Westboro Baptist Church, like this total life split moment. 0:13:08.156 --> 0:13:12.036 Is it jarring to remember that you are that same Megan? 0:13:12.156 --> 0:13:15.636 And so one thing I found fascinating about her experience 0:13:15.796 --> 0:13:19.596 is that she makes an intentional effort not to distance 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:22.436 herself from that Megan. And the reason for that is 0:13:22.476 --> 0:13:25.276 she can both acknowledge that she has different views today, 0:13:25.836 --> 0:13:29.876 but reminding herself a former Megan helps her continue to 0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:34.436 have empathy towards people who continue to think like old Megan. 0:13:34.836 --> 0:13:37.036 And in order for her to do the anti extremist 0:13:37.076 --> 0:13:39.716 work she does today, she also has to have that 0:13:39.796 --> 0:13:44.676 posture of understanding and empathy because she needs to remember 0:13:44.756 --> 0:13:49.196 what it was like to feel persuaded by terrible ideas. 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:52.836 That is fascinating. Yeah, it kind of blew me away 0:13:52.876 --> 0:13:57.556 that answer. Yeah, I mean the idea that you could 0:13:58.116 --> 0:14:02.836 you could still accept that, you know, sort of unacceptable 0:14:02.916 --> 0:14:05.636 version of past you and say, yeah, you know, I'm 0:14:05.716 --> 0:14:09.916 not totally different from that anymore, while stilling your values 0:14:09.956 --> 0:14:12.876 and your beliefs. I mean that that is that is 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:15.956 walking proof of what is it the is it the 0:14:15.956 --> 0:14:20.076 f Scott Fitzgerald line that the sign of intelligence is 0:14:20.116 --> 0:14:22.436 the ability to hold two opposing ideas in your mind 0:14:22.476 --> 0:14:24.556 at the same time and retain the ability to function 0:14:25.476 --> 0:14:28.916 like that. That's it. She has two opposing identities, one 0:14:29.116 --> 0:14:33.356 you know, recently abandoned, one relatively recently adopted that she 0:14:33.516 --> 0:14:36.796 is keeping in some kind of dynamic tension. I don't think. 0:14:37.436 --> 0:14:40.596 I can't imagine doing that, honestly. I think that. I mean, 0:14:40.596 --> 0:14:43.156 we all have multiple identities, right, But to have such 0:14:43.236 --> 0:14:46.876 conflicting values and beliefs and and say yeah, one is 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:50.236 one is me now, one is me before, but it's 0:14:50.276 --> 0:14:53.476 not that different from you now. The equanimity required to 0:14:53.516 --> 0:14:57.076 do that, I think is extraordinary. Can't imagine it exactly. 0:14:57.916 --> 0:15:00.556 Another reason that it's hard for a lot of people 0:15:00.596 --> 0:15:03.316 to admit that they're wrong is that we tend to 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:06.996 strongly attach our opinions to our sense of identity. And 0:15:07.076 --> 0:15:09.316 you challenge this in the book, right, you say you 0:15:09.316 --> 0:15:12.596 should really be defining your identity in terms of values, 0:15:12.716 --> 0:15:16.836 not opinions. To me, that's kind of a blurry line, 0:15:17.076 --> 0:15:20.516 like how are you defining the difference between a value 0:15:20.956 --> 0:15:24.036 and an opinion? And shouldn't we also be open minded 0:15:24.036 --> 0:15:27.876 about our value systems, because obviously we see huge variation 0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:30.676 in moral values across cultures. In addition to the fact 0:15:30.716 --> 0:15:33.676 that when we do do that thought experiment of if 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:35.556 I were born in a different century, or in a 0:15:35.596 --> 0:15:39.236 different family, or you know, growing up in a different religion, 0:15:39.276 --> 0:15:42.516 we would have wildly different values, and so I would 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:45.476 I guess I would want to cultivate a same openness 0:15:45.556 --> 0:15:49.716 to changes in one's value system. You're willing to change 0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:52.356 those fundamental beliefs. I think I think that's a good point, 0:15:52.436 --> 0:15:54.916 and I'm definitely open to rethinking what I wrote in 0:15:54.956 --> 0:15:56.796 the book. It would be ironic if I weren't. It 0:15:56.796 --> 0:16:00.556 gets very met up, very quickly. But I think I 0:16:00.596 --> 0:16:03.956 think I agree with you. I think that I might 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:07.156 make one distinction before I agree, which is to say, 0:16:07.276 --> 0:16:11.036 when I think about values, to me, the core definition 0:16:11.116 --> 0:16:14.196 of a value is what you think is important, and 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:16.556 the definition of a belief or an opinion is what 0:16:16.916 --> 0:16:19.916 you think is true. And when you do that that 0:16:20.076 --> 0:16:23.956 counterfactual thinking exercise where you imagine, yeah, would I believe 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:25.996 different things if I was raised in a different family, 0:16:26.116 --> 0:16:28.156 or in a different country, or in a different point 0:16:28.196 --> 0:16:32.116 in history. You're not necessarily rethinking your values, you're definitely 0:16:32.116 --> 0:16:36.396 rethinking your beliefs, right, And yeah, I think, okay, sorry, 0:16:36.476 --> 0:16:38.676 So I think I disagree with that. I do think 0:16:38.796 --> 0:16:43.276 that you are changing potentially what's important to you through 0:16:43.316 --> 0:16:46.356 some of these exercises, depending on your exposure. So, for example, 0:16:46.396 --> 0:16:49.836 I can imagine so in the United States, huge sanctity 0:16:49.916 --> 0:16:53.236 when it comes to life. Right, we care about existence, 0:16:53.276 --> 0:16:56.196 we care about life. I talk to my Indian relatives 0:16:56.236 --> 0:17:00.476 and they're far more concerned with quality of life and suffering, right, 0:17:00.516 --> 0:17:03.796 So that is like what's important to them. And so 0:17:03.996 --> 0:17:07.476 over the course of my life, I have evolved and 0:17:07.556 --> 0:17:10.596 I have started to value like what's important to me 0:17:10.676 --> 0:17:14.916 now is much more about suffering than existence, and that 0:17:14.996 --> 0:17:18.356 would inform my opinions, but it is my fundamental view 0:17:18.396 --> 0:17:21.076 about what's important or not. Yeah, I think I think 0:17:21.076 --> 0:17:24.236 you're right. I think I think that's less likely to 0:17:24.316 --> 0:17:26.836 change though. I think it's slower to change, right, because 0:17:27.156 --> 0:17:30.156 it's deeper seated. And that's where that's where I think 0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:33.356 you're spot on that. I don't think our values should 0:17:33.396 --> 0:17:36.796 be set in stone, right. Sometimes sometimes people end up 0:17:36.836 --> 0:17:39.516 choosing values that are harmful to themselves. And or others. 0:17:40.396 --> 0:17:43.996 But I think we should rethink those a little bit 0:17:44.076 --> 0:17:47.316 less frequently and maybe with stronger reasons. Right. I think 0:17:47.316 --> 0:17:51.156 that to me, opinions should just be tentative period. Right. 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:53.076 You should walk around with a set of things that 0:17:53.116 --> 0:17:55.716 you think are true, and the moment you come across 0:17:55.876 --> 0:17:58.996 better data and sharper logic, you should say, all right, 0:17:59.556 --> 0:18:02.236 maybe I should revisit that. I don't think you should 0:18:02.276 --> 0:18:04.436 be willing to flip flop on your values every day 0:18:04.516 --> 0:18:06.436 or every week. Right. That feels like more of a 0:18:06.516 --> 0:18:09.436 once a year kind of exercise to reflect on how 0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:12.156 is how is what's important to me changing? And I 0:18:12.156 --> 0:18:14.396 think that that kind of rethinking ought to be a 0:18:14.436 --> 0:18:19.716 more deliberate and maybe even slower process. I agree with that. 0:18:19.796 --> 0:18:23.436 I think the cadence along which we revisit our values 0:18:23.596 --> 0:18:25.956 is going to be far less frequent as it should be, because, 0:18:25.996 --> 0:18:29.156 like you said, they're more deeply entrenched in our systems. 0:18:29.356 --> 0:18:31.316 I guess the reason I care so deeply about this 0:18:31.396 --> 0:18:33.916 is I think that the values people hold can also 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:36.756 be really pernicious if they are the wrong ones, and 0:18:36.796 --> 0:18:40.916 so compelling people to try to revisit their values on occasion, 0:18:41.436 --> 0:18:45.636 it can have transformative effects on society. I think you're 0:18:45.676 --> 0:18:48.556 right on that too. I think I'm less optimistic than 0:18:48.556 --> 0:18:50.716 you are about how easy it is to compel people 0:18:50.716 --> 0:18:52.356 to change their values. Say, I didn't say I was 0:18:52.396 --> 0:18:55.676 optimistic about it. I just care about it. Well, I 0:18:55.676 --> 0:18:57.756 care about it too, and I just I think it's 0:18:57.756 --> 0:19:03.716 incredibly difficult to even invite people to rethink their values. Yeah, 0:19:03.756 --> 0:19:06.476 this is why I'm obsessed with the moral reframing research 0:19:06.556 --> 0:19:09.116 that's coming out. Basically, it says, look, hold the value 0:19:09.116 --> 0:19:11.636 these fixed, assume those are constant to your earlier point, 0:19:11.916 --> 0:19:15.516 but present them in a new way. Right. So it's like, Okay, 0:19:15.516 --> 0:19:19.396 you want folks to care about the environment. Right. To liberals, 0:19:19.596 --> 0:19:22.436 you frame it as like, okay, we can save the environment, 0:19:22.476 --> 0:19:25.156 we will help the underprivileged among us rise up, you know, 0:19:25.196 --> 0:19:29.316 social equality. And then with conservatives, it's patriotic to save 0:19:29.356 --> 0:19:32.116 our planet. It can help create new jobs, to invest 0:19:32.156 --> 0:19:36.676 in climate change, or even we need to protect the 0:19:36.756 --> 0:19:40.836 purity of God's Earth. Right, It's such. It's a completely 0:19:40.956 --> 0:19:44.756 different kind of argument, but it reaches the same ends. Okay, 0:19:44.796 --> 0:19:47.676 so we're on this opening our mind journey. Right, So 0:19:47.716 --> 0:19:50.756 we're now at the point where we are. We are 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:53.156 aware of the benefits of having a more open mind, 0:19:53.196 --> 0:19:55.716 and you've given us some strategies for how to do that. 0:19:56.196 --> 0:19:59.116 One thing that can prevent us from admitting that we're 0:19:59.116 --> 0:20:02.996 wrong is pride. Right. We don't like admitting that we're wrong. 0:20:03.316 --> 0:20:07.356 It's uncomfortable. We sometimes feel that we will lose credibility 0:20:07.396 --> 0:20:11.316 with other people we express that we're wrong or express vulnerability, 0:20:11.716 --> 0:20:14.276 and the research doesn't corroborate that. Can you say more 0:20:14.316 --> 0:20:17.356 about it? Yeah? I mean you see this. There's a 0:20:17.356 --> 0:20:20.396 whole literature on scientists saying, you know what, I made 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:22.996 a mistake in my published paper, and it turns out 0:20:23.036 --> 0:20:27.116 that they're perceived more positively afterward. Going back half a century, 0:20:27.196 --> 0:20:30.436 there's a lot of research on the pratfall effect showing 0:20:30.516 --> 0:20:33.276 that if a successful person fails or makes a mistake, 0:20:33.716 --> 0:20:36.836 people actually like them more. They don't ding them for 0:20:36.916 --> 0:20:39.076 confidence at all, and now they see them as human 0:20:39.116 --> 0:20:43.356 and relatable and approachable instead of being untouchable. I think 0:20:44.236 --> 0:20:47.036 one of the things I've I've realized over time is 0:20:47.716 --> 0:20:50.036 that the faster you are to admit when you're wrong, 0:20:50.276 --> 0:20:53.196 the faster you can move toward being right. And that's 0:20:53.236 --> 0:20:55.036 where we all want to land right. We'd like to 0:20:55.076 --> 0:20:57.236 be right more often, and that means you have to 0:20:57.276 --> 0:21:01.076 be quicker to at least internally right. See those moments 0:21:01.076 --> 0:21:03.036 when you were wrong, but then if you don't ever 0:21:03.076 --> 0:21:06.596 admit them out loud, then you're continuing to stigmatize the behavior. 0:21:06.916 --> 0:21:10.156 And saying I was wrong is the equivalent of admitting 0:21:10.156 --> 0:21:14.516 defeat or showing weakness, or signaling a lack of intelligence, 0:21:14.556 --> 0:21:17.476 as opposed to actually signaling that you have confident humility, 0:21:17.716 --> 0:21:20.316 which is I am secure enough in my expertise and 0:21:20.396 --> 0:21:23.236 my strengths to be willing to be forthcoming about all 0:21:23.276 --> 0:21:27.236 the things I got wrong and didn't know, and gosh, 0:21:27.316 --> 0:21:28.916 I would love to live in a world where that 0:21:28.996 --> 0:21:34.356 was the norm rather than the exception. After the break, 0:21:34.396 --> 0:21:37.516 Adam and I discussed tactics for changing other people's minds. 0:21:48.876 --> 0:21:51.596 So I would love to talk a little bit deeper 0:21:51.676 --> 0:21:54.636 about how it is that we can change other people's minds. 0:21:55.196 --> 0:21:56.916 So I'm going to set the scene for you. Okay, 0:21:56.956 --> 0:22:02.116 we are, We're at the proverbial Thanksgiving dinner. Okay, I'm 0:22:02.196 --> 0:22:05.436 dreading the dinner because the proverbial aunt uncle is at 0:22:05.476 --> 0:22:09.596 the table, And every year I have felt enraged by 0:22:09.716 --> 0:22:13.756 their political beliefs. This is not a hypothetical example is yeah, 0:22:13.756 --> 0:22:17.036 I know, I'm asking on behalf of a friend and 0:22:17.116 --> 0:22:20.316 so so typically I eat and then I leave the 0:22:20.316 --> 0:22:22.316 table because I just don't want to engage. But this 0:22:22.396 --> 0:22:26.756 year I read, uh, you know, how to better rethink, 0:22:26.876 --> 0:22:29.556 and I'm feeling really embolded. I'm feeling really motivated. So 0:22:29.556 --> 0:22:31.156 I'm going to stick it out. I'm gonna stay at 0:22:31.156 --> 0:22:33.956 that table. What are some of the tactics that we 0:22:34.036 --> 0:22:38.036 can use to navigate the preceding conversation? What are you 0:22:38.076 --> 0:22:42.156 trying to accomplish? I am trying to one stay sane 0:22:42.756 --> 0:22:45.716 and to maybe try to make a slight dent in 0:22:45.756 --> 0:22:48.836 their minds. Okay, and do you do you have an 0:22:48.876 --> 0:22:51.436 agenda around what you want them to believe or do 0:22:51.476 --> 0:22:53.116 you just want them to be a little bit more 0:22:53.196 --> 0:22:55.876 open about what they believe? Okay, So let's say this 0:22:55.956 --> 0:22:59.956 hypothetical person has such deeply entrenched beliefs, I want them 0:23:00.436 --> 0:23:04.516 to even be open to the idea of rethinking. Okay, 0:23:04.556 --> 0:23:06.396 And what's what's an issue that you want them to 0:23:06.396 --> 0:23:10.076