1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. People generally assume that they're less biased than others. Right. 2 00:00:33,596 --> 00:00:36,636 Speaker 1: This is my favorite bias. It's that I'm not biased biased, Right, 3 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:40,516 Speaker 1: everybody else is biased. I am objective. I see things 4 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:45,076 Speaker 1: with perfect neutrality. That's Adam Grant. He's a psychologist and 5 00:00:45,156 --> 00:00:48,236 Speaker 1: author of the book Think Again, and he's talking here 6 00:00:48,316 --> 00:00:51,956 Speaker 1: about a surprising feature of our own psychology that prevents 7 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:55,116 Speaker 1: us from changing our minds even when we should. And 8 00:00:55,196 --> 00:00:58,196 Speaker 1: I think that the higher your intelligence, the more likely 9 00:00:58,236 --> 00:01:00,916 Speaker 1: you are to fall victim to that bias. They're smarter 10 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: you are, the more feedback you've gotten throughout your life 11 00:01:03,556 --> 00:01:06,716 Speaker 1: that you're right, and that gives you an illusion of objectivity. 12 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk with Adam because he's an expert 13 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:12,556 Speaker 1: on the science of changing people's minds, a topic we've 14 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:15,156 Speaker 1: been diving into on this season of A Slight Change 15 00:01:15,156 --> 00:01:20,196 Speaker 1: of Plans. We all have that friend, that family member 16 00:01:20,236 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 1: that we disagree with on something, and it can feel 17 00:01:23,036 --> 00:01:25,956 Speaker 1: daunting to engage with them on the topic, so daunting 18 00:01:26,076 --> 00:01:29,716 Speaker 1: that oftentimes we just give up. In this episode, we're 19 00:01:29,716 --> 00:01:33,116 Speaker 1: trying to change that. Adam and I discuss science based 20 00:01:33,116 --> 00:01:36,556 Speaker 1: tactics that you can use to approach these conversations differently 21 00:01:36,956 --> 00:01:41,116 Speaker 1: and hopefully with more success. I'm Maya Shunker and this 22 00:01:41,196 --> 00:02:04,836 Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans. Well, it's great to 23 00:02:04,876 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 1: meet you, Adam. Great to meet you. I've been hearing 24 00:02:07,596 --> 00:02:11,036 Speaker 1: about you for years. I'm so excited that you're able 25 00:02:11,036 --> 00:02:13,796 Speaker 1: to join us for this podcast. I'm just eager to 26 00:02:13,836 --> 00:02:15,996 Speaker 1: pick your brain today. Well, my brain is sitting here 27 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:19,596 Speaker 1: waiting to be picked. Awesome. Okay. We don't like changing 28 00:02:19,596 --> 00:02:23,076 Speaker 1: our minds, right, It's uncomfortable, it can create a lot 29 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:25,876 Speaker 1: of cognitive dissonance. It takes a lot of hard work, 30 00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:29,036 Speaker 1: and so it's just easier to live our lives in 31 00:02:29,076 --> 00:02:33,356 Speaker 1: an unreflective mode where we persistently believe what we believe 32 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:35,676 Speaker 1: and we double down, and we surround ourselves with people 33 00:02:35,716 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 1: who help us double down on those beliefs over time. Yeah. 34 00:02:38,836 --> 00:02:41,476 Speaker 1: And one of the things that I loved about the 35 00:02:41,516 --> 00:02:45,076 Speaker 1: focus of your book is that it opens with ideas 36 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:47,916 Speaker 1: of how we can get ourselves to have an more 37 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 1: open mind, ourselves to rethink things. So one reason you 38 00:02:52,276 --> 00:02:54,996 Speaker 1: say that we might not be open to rethinking is 39 00:02:55,076 --> 00:02:59,156 Speaker 1: because we're overconfident. And you talk in your book about 40 00:02:59,276 --> 00:03:03,996 Speaker 1: not confusing over confidence with competence. Do you mind saying 41 00:03:03,996 --> 00:03:08,116 Speaker 1: a bit more about that? Sure? I think when people 42 00:03:08,156 --> 00:03:11,956 Speaker 1: are lacking knowledge or skill, sometimes they also don't know 43 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:14,756 Speaker 1: what knowledge or skill looks like in that domain. Right, 44 00:03:14,836 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: So if you know nothing, let's say, I always think 45 00:03:17,516 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 1: about a Super Bowl party. You gather a bunch of 46 00:03:19,996 --> 00:03:23,076 Speaker 1: football fans, and there's always one who's screaming at the 47 00:03:23,076 --> 00:03:26,076 Speaker 1: coach for calling the wrong place. That is usually the 48 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 1: fan who knows the least about football. But it's a fan, 49 00:03:29,596 --> 00:03:31,636 Speaker 1: it's not somebody who's, you know, who's not at all 50 00:03:31,676 --> 00:03:33,996 Speaker 1: interested in the game, because they's not like me, who's 51 00:03:34,036 --> 00:03:38,636 Speaker 1: just sitting at the food table profiting the entire time. Exactly. Yeah, 52 00:03:38,476 --> 00:03:40,716 Speaker 1: you know that you know nothing. I'm not weighing in. No, 53 00:03:40,916 --> 00:03:43,956 Speaker 1: you and you shouldn't, right, But if you if you 54 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:46,116 Speaker 1: watched a couple of games and you learned a little 55 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:48,956 Speaker 1: bit about football, that's when that tiny bit of knowledge 56 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 1: can become a little bit dangerous, right because it you. 57 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 1: What starts to happen is, as your knowledge grows, you 58 00:03:55,676 --> 00:03:58,956 Speaker 1: confuse your rate of learning for how much you've actually learned, 59 00:03:59,196 --> 00:04:02,316 Speaker 1: and your confidence rises faster than your competence, and pretty 60 00:04:02,356 --> 00:04:07,116 Speaker 1: soon you're trapped on the summit of Mount Stupid where 61 00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:10,076 Speaker 1: you know very little, but you don't know how little 62 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, you mentioned your book that imposter syndrome 63 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:16,396 Speaker 1: gets a bad rap, but actually there might be some 64 00:04:16,476 --> 00:04:19,836 Speaker 1: silver linings to fueling imposter syndrome. Can you say a 65 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:24,316 Speaker 1: bit more about that, Yeah, I kind of. I was 66 00:04:24,356 --> 00:04:27,596 Speaker 1: struck by this paradox that when you look at where 67 00:04:27,636 --> 00:04:30,996 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome exists, one of the places it's most prevalent 68 00:04:31,156 --> 00:04:34,236 Speaker 1: is among high achievers. And I think a lot of 69 00:04:34,276 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 1: people have assumed that they've succeeded in spite of their doubts, 70 00:04:38,596 --> 00:04:41,076 Speaker 1: and I started to wonder whether their doubts are actually 71 00:04:41,076 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 1: helping to fuel their success. Well, maybe we don't have 72 00:04:43,956 --> 00:04:45,676 Speaker 1: to turn this into a syndrome. Right when you call 73 00:04:45,716 --> 00:04:47,876 Speaker 1: it imposter syndrome, it's like you have some kind of 74 00:04:47,956 --> 00:04:52,036 Speaker 1: chronic disease, that is, it's just abilitating and it's with 75 00:04:52,076 --> 00:04:54,236 Speaker 1: you at all times. We ended up having a doctoral 76 00:04:54,276 --> 00:04:55,996 Speaker 1: student at Wark and Besima's too Fick, who is now 77 00:04:55,996 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 1: an MT professor, and she studied how often people doubt themselves. 78 00:05:01,636 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: She studied investment professionals and medical professionals and found no 79 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:09,316 Speaker 1: consistent costs of having more frequent imposter thoughts and some 80 00:05:09,396 --> 00:05:13,156 Speaker 1: surprising benefits. The investment professionals, when they felt like imposters 81 00:05:13,156 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 1: more often, they actually made better decisions. The medical professionals 82 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:19,996 Speaker 1: who felt like imposters more often, they actually listened to 83 00:05:20,036 --> 00:05:23,956 Speaker 1: their patients. And what was happening was when people felt 84 00:05:23,956 --> 00:05:27,196 Speaker 1: those imposter thoughts, their confidence was a little bit below 85 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:29,956 Speaker 1: their competence, and that led them to work harder to 86 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 1: prove themselves. It led them to work smarter to learn 87 00:05:32,836 --> 00:05:35,436 Speaker 1: new things, and it made them much more receptive to 88 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:37,996 Speaker 1: listening to other people, which filled gaps in their knowledge. 89 00:05:38,036 --> 00:05:42,036 Speaker 1: And it almost makes me think that instead of trying 90 00:05:42,076 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 1: to have our confidence match our competence perfectly, we are 91 00:05:44,876 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: better off slightly underestimating ourselves. You know, there's a tension 92 00:05:50,196 --> 00:05:53,356 Speaker 1: that can emerge here, right because I'm thinking about, for example, 93 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 1: communities of color who fall prey to stereotype threat and 94 00:05:56,516 --> 00:06:00,316 Speaker 1: the fact that boosting confidence in those cases is really 95 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:03,596 Speaker 1: productive because in many ways they're starting off in an 96 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:08,916 Speaker 1: unreasonable position relative to their actual abilities. And so well, one, 97 00:06:08,916 --> 00:06:11,436 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering in those studies that we're done, what 98 00:06:11,556 --> 00:06:13,996 Speaker 1: were the demographics of the group. And two, in terms 99 00:06:13,996 --> 00:06:19,796 Speaker 1: of prescriptions. Where is that appropriate line between humility and confidence, 100 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:24,956 Speaker 1: especially because some of these psychological effects can disproportionately hit 101 00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:27,676 Speaker 1: different communities. Yeah, I think I think that's a really 102 00:06:27,676 --> 00:06:31,076 Speaker 1: important question. And I think Bassima had good data on 103 00:06:31,116 --> 00:06:34,076 Speaker 1: gender less on race, but when she looked at gender differences, 104 00:06:34,756 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 1: the odds were greater that women were sort of discouraged 105 00:06:38,516 --> 00:06:42,876 Speaker 1: or debilitated by very frequent imposter thoughts, and men were 106 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:45,236 Speaker 1: much more likely to be motivated by them. And I 107 00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 1: think that tracks with everything we know about about basically 108 00:06:49,036 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 1: the world I live in as a white man, which 109 00:06:50,996 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 1: is people take for granted that I'm competent, whereas if 110 00:06:54,196 --> 00:06:56,036 Speaker 1: you grow up as a woman, and I think this 111 00:06:56,156 --> 00:06:58,596 Speaker 1: is obviously the case for people of color as well. 112 00:06:59,556 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 1: It's you know, you have to prove your competence every day, 113 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:05,596 Speaker 1: and those doubts because other people are doubting you are 114 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 1: more likely to get internalized over time. And I think 115 00:07:08,316 --> 00:07:10,356 Speaker 1: your spot on that we need to work harder to 116 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:14,356 Speaker 1: build confidence among people who are not white men. Does 117 00:07:14,396 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 1: that Does that track with your experience? Yeah, I think 118 00:07:17,316 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: it's it is, I would Freeman is just really complex. 119 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:25,196 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's no one size fits all approach here. 120 00:07:25,356 --> 00:07:29,116 Speaker 1: But I do think that there are profound public policy implications, right, 121 00:07:29,116 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 1: because if we're going on the road with a message 122 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:34,716 Speaker 1: of imposter syndromes good, we might find that that has 123 00:07:34,716 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 1: a disproportionately negative effect on some subsets of the population, right, women, 124 00:07:39,956 --> 00:07:42,236 Speaker 1: people of color, etc. And so we just have to 125 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:44,996 Speaker 1: be careful about the messaging. I almost want the messaging 126 00:07:45,036 --> 00:07:50,516 Speaker 1: to be imposter syndrome is good, white men. You know, 127 00:07:50,676 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 1: I think a disclaimer is critical here. I would just 128 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:56,436 Speaker 1: I would rewrite that message completely. You don't have to 129 00:07:56,436 --> 00:07:59,836 Speaker 1: take imposter syndrome as a curse. You can recognize that 130 00:07:59,876 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 1: it's a double edged sword, and you can try to 131 00:08:02,276 --> 00:08:04,476 Speaker 1: get some of those benefits of doubt to say, Okay, 132 00:08:04,916 --> 00:08:07,836 Speaker 1: you know what, the fact that I am questioning myself 133 00:08:08,116 --> 00:08:10,396 Speaker 1: means I'm not going to get complacent, and I think 134 00:08:10,396 --> 00:08:12,876 Speaker 1: that's that's the message that I want to get across. Yeah, 135 00:08:12,956 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 1: that makes sense. One of my favorite parts of the 136 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:18,276 Speaker 1: book was the fact that a smarter a person is, 137 00:08:18,756 --> 00:08:21,516 Speaker 1: the faster they recognize patterns, and so the more likely 138 00:08:21,556 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 1: they are to notice and reinforce stereotypes. So you also 139 00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:31,156 Speaker 1: mentioned that the smarter you are, the more likely you 140 00:08:31,196 --> 00:08:33,636 Speaker 1: are to struggle with updating your beliefs right, to be 141 00:08:33,716 --> 00:08:37,916 Speaker 1: willing to rethink. So what is the mechanism at play 142 00:08:37,996 --> 00:08:41,876 Speaker 1: in that ladder finding that would make that so? Well? 143 00:08:42,116 --> 00:08:45,436 Speaker 1: People generally assume that they're less biased than others, right, 144 00:08:45,436 --> 00:08:48,516 Speaker 1: This is my favorite bias. It's the I'm not biased biased, Right, 145 00:08:48,556 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: everybody else is biased. I am objective. I see things 146 00:08:52,516 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 1: with perfect neutrality. And I think that the higher your intelligence, 147 00:08:57,236 --> 00:08:59,236 Speaker 1: the more likely you are to fall victim to that 148 00:08:59,276 --> 00:09:02,916 Speaker 1: bias in the data. And I think there's probably the 149 00:09:02,996 --> 00:09:05,956 Speaker 1: jury is still out on what the different mechanisms might be, 150 00:09:05,996 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 1: but I think I think one of them is that 151 00:09:08,796 --> 00:09:11,396 Speaker 1: this smarter you are, the more feedback you've gotten throughout 152 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:13,916 Speaker 1: your life that you're right, and that gives you an 153 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:18,596 Speaker 1: illusion of objectivity. What you know, what you're consistent right 154 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:23,156 Speaker 1: answers or a pluses or you know, genius level, like 155 00:09:23,276 --> 00:09:25,716 Speaker 1: you're the smartest person I've ever met. Feedback, Yeah, is 156 00:09:25,756 --> 00:09:28,836 Speaker 1: really signaling is that you're good at thinking and learning, 157 00:09:29,116 --> 00:09:31,796 Speaker 1: not that you're objective in the way that you process information. 158 00:09:31,996 --> 00:09:35,556 Speaker 1: And I think people miss that distinction. Yeah, it's it's 159 00:09:35,556 --> 00:09:39,636 Speaker 1: a reflection back to you. Ah, So the current mechanisms 160 00:09:39,636 --> 00:09:42,476 Speaker 1: that I use to analyze information in the world are 161 00:09:42,516 --> 00:09:45,476 Speaker 1: paying off because I keep getting the A plus. So 162 00:09:45,556 --> 00:09:49,916 Speaker 1: clearly something's going well here exactly. Yeah, you're getting positive feedback. Interesting. Yeah, 163 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 1: it reminds me. I interviewed Megan Phelps Roper, who was 164 00:09:53,756 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 1: part of the Westboro Baptist Church, which is a religious cult, 165 00:09:57,196 --> 00:10:00,356 Speaker 1: and she eventually ended up leaving in her mid twenties. 166 00:10:00,396 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 1: But I think one thing that compelled her to stay 167 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 1: for so long is that she grew up in a 168 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:10,516 Speaker 1: family of lawyers. They were all very, very smart, highly educated, 169 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:18,236 Speaker 1: and their pride point was constructing these very logical arguments, 170 00:10:18,596 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 1: and I mean logical in the definitional sense of the word. 171 00:10:21,636 --> 00:10:24,516 Speaker 1: And as a result, I think there was some sort 172 00:10:24,556 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 1: of reinforcing that was happening within the Phelps family. They're 173 00:10:29,276 --> 00:10:34,076 Speaker 1: using sophisticated patterns and thinking and analysis, but because again 174 00:10:34,236 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 1: their axioms or batshit crazy, they're reaching the wrong conclusions, 175 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:42,516 Speaker 1: but they are in their minds doubling down on those conclusions. 176 00:10:42,956 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: Do you have thoughts on that. Yeah. I think one 177 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:47,476 Speaker 1: of the other risks of growing up in a family 178 00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:50,076 Speaker 1: like that is you're taught from an early age to 179 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:54,196 Speaker 1: make your own arguments, and we forget that when you 180 00:10:54,236 --> 00:10:56,836 Speaker 1: make an argument to persuade someone else, the person you're 181 00:10:56,876 --> 00:11:01,276 Speaker 1: most likely to persuade is yourself because you trust yourself, right, 182 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:03,716 Speaker 1: you are a highly credible source in your own eyes, 183 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 1: and you also came up with the reasons that you 184 00:11:06,556 --> 00:11:09,556 Speaker 1: found most convincing, and as you explain them, you start 185 00:11:09,596 --> 00:11:11,596 Speaker 1: to take ownership over them. Right. Part of that is 186 00:11:11,636 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance. Well, I've said this out loud. I don't 187 00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:17,156 Speaker 1: want to be a hypocrite, so now it becomes part 188 00:11:17,156 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 1: of my belief system. And another reason why we do 189 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:25,556 Speaker 1: feel so much Adjita when it comes to admitting that 190 00:11:25,556 --> 00:11:30,116 Speaker 1: we're wrong, is that we get deeply attached to quote 191 00:11:30,116 --> 00:11:33,036 Speaker 1: our past selves who held those beliefs, and we do 192 00:11:33,116 --> 00:11:35,796 Speaker 1: feel like a departure from that past self in some 193 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:39,316 Speaker 1: way poses a full on identity threat. So can you 194 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:42,276 Speaker 1: say more about the importance of trying to detach yourself 195 00:11:42,316 --> 00:11:46,436 Speaker 1: from your past self. Yeah, there's there's a growing body 196 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:49,556 Speaker 1: of evidence in psychology that people who feel quote unquote 197 00:11:49,556 --> 00:11:52,436 Speaker 1: derailed that you know, I'm not I'm not quite the 198 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:55,596 Speaker 1: same person I was two or three years ago, they 199 00:11:55,636 --> 00:11:58,436 Speaker 1: actually end up getting happier that you know, there's a 200 00:11:58,476 --> 00:12:02,276 Speaker 1: little bit of a period of feeling unsettled, but then 201 00:12:02,316 --> 00:12:05,236 Speaker 1: they realize, oh, I'm not going to let my old 202 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:07,596 Speaker 1: ideas of who I wanted to be hold me back. 203 00:12:07,996 --> 00:12:09,716 Speaker 1: And I think one of the easiest ways to get 204 00:12:09,716 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 1: comfortable with rethinking is to detach your current self from 205 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:16,916 Speaker 1: your old self. So there are so many times when 206 00:12:16,916 --> 00:12:20,436 Speaker 1: I've looked back at my old decisions and opinions, I'm like, Wow, 207 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:24,276 Speaker 1: I should be really embarrassed by that. How can I 208 00:12:24,316 --> 00:12:27,636 Speaker 1: possibly think that? And yet I mostly just laugh at 209 00:12:27,676 --> 00:12:30,676 Speaker 1: myself because I don't think I'm the same person. Yes, 210 00:12:30,716 --> 00:12:33,796 Speaker 1: I realize I have fundamentally the same brain and the 211 00:12:33,836 --> 00:12:36,156 Speaker 1: same body, right, and it's still me. But I think 212 00:12:36,156 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 1: I've grown and evolved in a lot of ways from 213 00:12:37,916 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 1: that version of me, and so I don't feel like 214 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:42,996 Speaker 1: what I did with the ideas I had about my 215 00:12:43,036 --> 00:12:45,956 Speaker 1: future and the opinions I held at twenty one are 216 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:49,116 Speaker 1: reflective of who I am now at thirty nine, even 217 00:12:49,156 --> 00:12:52,316 Speaker 1: though some of my values are very similar. One a 218 00:12:52,396 --> 00:12:54,996 Speaker 1: interesting flip on this, it's reminding me so In this 219 00:12:55,036 --> 00:12:58,836 Speaker 1: interview with Megan fels Roper, who was mentioning, I asked 220 00:12:58,836 --> 00:13:01,796 Speaker 1: her I said, when you look back on your life, right, 221 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:04,356 Speaker 1: you have this in the Westboro Baptist Church and then 222 00:13:04,396 --> 00:13:07,596 Speaker 1: post Westboro Baptist Church, like this total life split moment. 223 00:13:08,156 --> 00:13:12,036 Speaker 1: Is it jarring to remember that you are that same Megan? 224 00:13:12,156 --> 00:13:15,636 Speaker 1: And so one thing I found fascinating about her experience 225 00:13:15,796 --> 00:13:19,596 Speaker 1: is that she makes an intentional effort not to distance 226 00:13:19,636 --> 00:13:22,436 Speaker 1: herself from that Megan. And the reason for that is 227 00:13:22,476 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 1: she can both acknowledge that she has different views today, 228 00:13:25,836 --> 00:13:29,876 Speaker 1: but reminding herself a former Megan helps her continue to 229 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:34,436 Speaker 1: have empathy towards people who continue to think like old Megan. 230 00:13:34,836 --> 00:13:37,036 Speaker 1: And in order for her to do the anti extremist 231 00:13:37,076 --> 00:13:39,716 Speaker 1: work she does today, she also has to have that 232 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 1: posture of understanding and empathy because she needs to remember 233 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:49,196 Speaker 1: what it was like to feel persuaded by terrible ideas. 234 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:52,836 Speaker 1: That is fascinating. Yeah, it kind of blew me away 235 00:13:52,876 --> 00:13:57,556 Speaker 1: that answer. Yeah, I mean the idea that you could 236 00:13:58,116 --> 00:14:02,836 Speaker 1: you could still accept that, you know, sort of unacceptable 237 00:14:02,916 --> 00:14:05,636 Speaker 1: version of past you and say, yeah, you know, I'm 238 00:14:05,716 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 1: not totally different from that anymore, while stilling your values 239 00:14:09,956 --> 00:14:12,876 Speaker 1: and your beliefs. I mean that that is that is 240 00:14:13,036 --> 00:14:15,956 Speaker 1: walking proof of what is it the is it the 241 00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:20,076 Speaker 1: f Scott Fitzgerald line that the sign of intelligence is 242 00:14:20,116 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 1: the ability to hold two opposing ideas in your mind 243 00:14:22,476 --> 00:14:24,556 Speaker 1: at the same time and retain the ability to function 244 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:28,916 Speaker 1: like that. That's it. She has two opposing identities, one 245 00:14:29,116 --> 00:14:33,356 Speaker 1: you know, recently abandoned, one relatively recently adopted that she 246 00:14:33,516 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 1: is keeping in some kind of dynamic tension. I don't think. 247 00:14:37,436 --> 00:14:40,596 Speaker 1: I can't imagine doing that, honestly. I think that. I mean, 248 00:14:40,596 --> 00:14:43,156 Speaker 1: we all have multiple identities, right, But to have such 249 00:14:43,236 --> 00:14:46,876 Speaker 1: conflicting values and beliefs and and say yeah, one is 250 00:14:46,956 --> 00:14:50,236 Speaker 1: one is me now, one is me before, but it's 251 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:53,476 Speaker 1: not that different from you now. The equanimity required to 252 00:14:53,516 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 1: do that, I think is extraordinary. Can't imagine it exactly. 253 00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:00,556 Speaker 1: Another reason that it's hard for a lot of people 254 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:03,316 Speaker 1: to admit that they're wrong is that we tend to 255 00:15:03,396 --> 00:15:06,996 Speaker 1: strongly attach our opinions to our sense of identity. And 256 00:15:07,076 --> 00:15:09,316 Speaker 1: you challenge this in the book, right, you say you 257 00:15:09,316 --> 00:15:12,596 Speaker 1: should really be defining your identity in terms of values, 258 00:15:12,716 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 1: not opinions. To me, that's kind of a blurry line, 259 00:15:17,076 --> 00:15:20,516 Speaker 1: like how are you defining the difference between a value 260 00:15:20,956 --> 00:15:24,036 Speaker 1: and an opinion? And shouldn't we also be open minded 261 00:15:24,036 --> 00:15:27,876 Speaker 1: about our value systems, because obviously we see huge variation 262 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:30,676 Speaker 1: in moral values across cultures. In addition to the fact 263 00:15:30,716 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 1: that when we do do that thought experiment of if 264 00:15:33,676 --> 00:15:35,556 Speaker 1: I were born in a different century, or in a 265 00:15:35,596 --> 00:15:39,236 Speaker 1: different family, or you know, growing up in a different religion, 266 00:15:39,276 --> 00:15:42,516 Speaker 1: we would have wildly different values, and so I would 267 00:15:42,596 --> 00:15:45,476 Speaker 1: I guess I would want to cultivate a same openness 268 00:15:45,556 --> 00:15:49,716 Speaker 1: to changes in one's value system. You're willing to change 269 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 1: those fundamental beliefs. I think I think that's a good point, 270 00:15:52,436 --> 00:15:54,916 Speaker 1: and I'm definitely open to rethinking what I wrote in 271 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 1: the book. It would be ironic if I weren't. It 272 00:15:56,796 --> 00:16:00,556 Speaker 1: gets very met up, very quickly. But I think I 273 00:16:00,596 --> 00:16:03,956 Speaker 1: think I agree with you. I think that I might 274 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:07,156 Speaker 1: make one distinction before I agree, which is to say, 275 00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:11,036 Speaker 1: when I think about values, to me, the core definition 276 00:16:11,116 --> 00:16:14,196 Speaker 1: of a value is what you think is important, and 277 00:16:14,356 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 1: the definition of a belief or an opinion is what 278 00:16:16,916 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 1: you think is true. And when you do that that 279 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:23,956 Speaker 1: counterfactual thinking exercise where you imagine, yeah, would I believe 280 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 1: different things if I was raised in a different family, 281 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:28,156 Speaker 1: or in a different country, or in a different point 282 00:16:28,196 --> 00:16:32,116 Speaker 1: in history. You're not necessarily rethinking your values, you're definitely 283 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:36,396 Speaker 1: rethinking your beliefs, right, And yeah, I think, okay, sorry, 284 00:16:36,476 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: So I think I disagree with that. I do think 285 00:16:38,796 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: that you are changing potentially what's important to you through 286 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:46,356 Speaker 1: some of these exercises, depending on your exposure. So, for example, 287 00:16:46,396 --> 00:16:49,836 Speaker 1: I can imagine so in the United States, huge sanctity 288 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:53,236 Speaker 1: when it comes to life. Right, we care about existence, 289 00:16:53,276 --> 00:16:56,196 Speaker 1: we care about life. I talk to my Indian relatives 290 00:16:56,236 --> 00:17:00,476 Speaker 1: and they're far more concerned with quality of life and suffering, right, 291 00:17:00,516 --> 00:17:03,796 Speaker 1: So that is like what's important to them. And so 292 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:07,476 Speaker 1: over the course of my life, I have evolved and 293 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:10,596 Speaker 1: I have started to value like what's important to me 294 00:17:10,676 --> 00:17:14,916 Speaker 1: now is much more about suffering than existence, and that 295 00:17:14,996 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 1: would inform my opinions, but it is my fundamental view 296 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:21,076 Speaker 1: about what's important or not. Yeah, I think I think 297 00:17:21,076 --> 00:17:24,236 Speaker 1: you're right. I think I think that's less likely to 298 00:17:24,316 --> 00:17:26,836 Speaker 1: change though. I think it's slower to change, right, because 299 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:30,156 Speaker 1: it's deeper seated. And that's where that's where I think 300 00:17:30,156 --> 00:17:33,356 Speaker 1: you're spot on that. I don't think our values should 301 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:36,796 Speaker 1: be set in stone, right. Sometimes sometimes people end up 302 00:17:36,836 --> 00:17:39,516 Speaker 1: choosing values that are harmful to themselves. And or others. 303 00:17:40,396 --> 00:17:43,996 Speaker 1: But I think we should rethink those a little bit 304 00:17:44,076 --> 00:17:47,316 Speaker 1: less frequently and maybe with stronger reasons. Right. I think 305 00:17:47,316 --> 00:17:51,156 Speaker 1: that to me, opinions should just be tentative period. Right. 306 00:17:51,196 --> 00:17:53,076 Speaker 1: You should walk around with a set of things that 307 00:17:53,116 --> 00:17:55,716 Speaker 1: you think are true, and the moment you come across 308 00:17:55,876 --> 00:17:58,996 Speaker 1: better data and sharper logic, you should say, all right, 309 00:17:59,556 --> 00:18:02,236 Speaker 1: maybe I should revisit that. I don't think you should 310 00:18:02,276 --> 00:18:04,436 Speaker 1: be willing to flip flop on your values every day 311 00:18:04,516 --> 00:18:06,436 Speaker 1: or every week. Right. That feels like more of a 312 00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:09,436 Speaker 1: once a year kind of exercise to reflect on how 313 00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 1: is how is what's important to me changing? And I 314 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:14,396 Speaker 1: think that that kind of rethinking ought to be a 315 00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 1: more deliberate and maybe even slower process. I agree with that. 316 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: I think the cadence along which we revisit our values 317 00:18:23,596 --> 00:18:25,956 Speaker 1: is going to be far less frequent as it should be, because, 318 00:18:25,996 --> 00:18:29,156 Speaker 1: like you said, they're more deeply entrenched in our systems. 319 00:18:29,356 --> 00:18:31,316 Speaker 1: I guess the reason I care so deeply about this 320 00:18:31,396 --> 00:18:33,916 Speaker 1: is I think that the values people hold can also 321 00:18:33,956 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 1: be really pernicious if they are the wrong ones, and 322 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 1: so compelling people to try to revisit their values on occasion, 323 00:18:41,436 --> 00:18:45,636 Speaker 1: it can have transformative effects on society. I think you're 324 00:18:45,676 --> 00:18:48,556 Speaker 1: right on that too. I think I'm less optimistic than 325 00:18:48,556 --> 00:18:50,716 Speaker 1: you are about how easy it is to compel people 326 00:18:50,716 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 1: to change their values. Say, I didn't say I was 327 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:55,676 Speaker 1: optimistic about it. I just care about it. Well, I 328 00:18:55,676 --> 00:18:57,756 Speaker 1: care about it too, and I just I think it's 329 00:18:57,756 --> 00:19:03,716 Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to even invite people to rethink their values. Yeah, 330 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:06,476 Speaker 1: this is why I'm obsessed with the moral reframing research 331 00:19:06,556 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 1: that's coming out. Basically, it says, look, hold the value 332 00:19:09,116 --> 00:19:11,636 Speaker 1: these fixed, assume those are constant to your earlier point, 333 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:15,516 Speaker 1: but present them in a new way. Right. So it's like, Okay, 334 00:19:15,516 --> 00:19:19,396 Speaker 1: you want folks to care about the environment. Right. To liberals, 335 00:19:19,596 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 1: you frame it as like, okay, we can save the environment, 336 00:19:22,476 --> 00:19:25,156 Speaker 1: we will help the underprivileged among us rise up, you know, 337 00:19:25,196 --> 00:19:29,316 Speaker 1: social equality. And then with conservatives, it's patriotic to save 338 00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:32,116 Speaker 1: our planet. It can help create new jobs, to invest 339 00:19:32,156 --> 00:19:36,676 Speaker 1: in climate change, or even we need to protect the 340 00:19:36,756 --> 00:19:40,836 Speaker 1: purity of God's Earth. Right, It's such. It's a completely 341 00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:44,756 Speaker 1: different kind of argument, but it reaches the same ends. Okay, 342 00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:47,676 Speaker 1: so we're on this opening our mind journey. Right, So 343 00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:50,756 Speaker 1: we're now at the point where we are. We are 344 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:53,156 Speaker 1: aware of the benefits of having a more open mind, 345 00:19:53,196 --> 00:19:55,716 Speaker 1: and you've given us some strategies for how to do that. 346 00:19:56,196 --> 00:19:59,116 Speaker 1: One thing that can prevent us from admitting that we're 347 00:19:59,116 --> 00:20:02,996 Speaker 1: wrong is pride. Right. We don't like admitting that we're wrong. 348 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:07,356 Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable. We sometimes feel that we will lose credibility 349 00:20:07,396 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 1: with other people we express that we're wrong or express vulnerability, 350 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,276 Speaker 1: and the research doesn't corroborate that. Can you say more 351 00:20:14,316 --> 00:20:17,356 Speaker 1: about it? Yeah? I mean you see this. There's a 352 00:20:17,356 --> 00:20:20,396 Speaker 1: whole literature on scientists saying, you know what, I made 353 00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:22,996 Speaker 1: a mistake in my published paper, and it turns out 354 00:20:23,036 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 1: that they're perceived more positively afterward. Going back half a century, 355 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:30,436 Speaker 1: there's a lot of research on the pratfall effect showing 356 00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:33,276 Speaker 1: that if a successful person fails or makes a mistake, 357 00:20:33,716 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 1: people actually like them more. They don't ding them for 358 00:20:36,916 --> 00:20:39,076 Speaker 1: confidence at all, and now they see them as human 359 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:43,356 Speaker 1: and relatable and approachable instead of being untouchable. I think 360 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:47,036 Speaker 1: one of the things I've I've realized over time is 361 00:20:47,716 --> 00:20:50,036 Speaker 1: that the faster you are to admit when you're wrong, 362 00:20:50,276 --> 00:20:53,196 Speaker 1: the faster you can move toward being right. And that's 363 00:20:53,236 --> 00:20:55,036 Speaker 1: where we all want to land right. We'd like to 364 00:20:55,076 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 1: be right more often, and that means you have to 365 00:20:57,276 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: be quicker to at least internally right. See those moments 366 00:21:01,076 --> 00:21:03,036 Speaker 1: when you were wrong, but then if you don't ever 367 00:21:03,076 --> 00:21:06,596 Speaker 1: admit them out loud, then you're continuing to stigmatize the behavior. 368 00:21:06,916 --> 00:21:10,156 Speaker 1: And saying I was wrong is the equivalent of admitting 369 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:14,516 Speaker 1: defeat or showing weakness, or signaling a lack of intelligence, 370 00:21:14,556 --> 00:21:17,476 Speaker 1: as opposed to actually signaling that you have confident humility, 371 00:21:17,716 --> 00:21:20,316 Speaker 1: which is I am secure enough in my expertise and 372 00:21:20,396 --> 00:21:23,236 Speaker 1: my strengths to be willing to be forthcoming about all 373 00:21:23,276 --> 00:21:27,236 Speaker 1: the things I got wrong and didn't know, and gosh, 374 00:21:27,316 --> 00:21:28,916 Speaker 1: I would love to live in a world where that 375 00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 1: was the norm rather than the exception. After the break, 376 00:21:34,396 --> 00:21:37,516 Speaker 1: Adam and I discussed tactics for changing other people's minds. 377 00:21:48,876 --> 00:21:51,596 Speaker 1: So I would love to talk a little bit deeper 378 00:21:51,676 --> 00:21:54,636 Speaker 1: about how it is that we can change other people's minds. 379 00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:56,916 Speaker 1: So I'm going to set the scene for you. Okay, 380 00:21:56,956 --> 00:22:02,116 Speaker 1: we are, We're at the proverbial Thanksgiving dinner. Okay, I'm 381 00:22:02,196 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 1: dreading the dinner because the proverbial aunt uncle is at 382 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 1: the table, And every year I have felt enraged by 383 00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:13,756 Speaker 1: their political beliefs. This is not a hypothetical example is yeah, 384 00:22:13,756 --> 00:22:17,036 Speaker 1: I know, I'm asking on behalf of a friend and 385 00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:20,316 Speaker 1: so so typically I eat and then I leave the 386 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:22,316 Speaker 1: table because I just don't want to engage. But this 387 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:26,756 Speaker 1: year I read, uh, you know, how to better rethink, 388 00:22:26,876 --> 00:22:29,556 Speaker 1: and I'm feeling really embolded. I'm feeling really motivated. So 389 00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:31,156 Speaker 1: I'm going to stick it out. I'm gonna stay at 390 00:22:31,156 --> 00:22:33,956 Speaker 1: that table. What are some of the tactics that we 391 00:22:34,036 --> 00:22:38,036 Speaker 1: can use to navigate the preceding conversation? What are you 392 00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: trying to accomplish? I am trying to one stay sane 393 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:45,716 Speaker 1: and to maybe try to make a slight dent in 394 00:22:45,756 --> 00:22:48,836 Speaker 1: their minds. Okay, and do you do you have an 395 00:22:48,876 --> 00:22:51,436 Speaker 1: agenda around what you want them to believe or do 396 00:22:51,476 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 1: you just want them to be a little bit more 397 00:22:53,196 --> 00:22:55,876 Speaker 1: open about what they believe? Okay, So let's say this 398 00:22:55,956 --> 00:22:59,956 Speaker 1: hypothetical person has such deeply entrenched beliefs, I want them 399 00:23:00,436 --> 00:23:04,516 Speaker 1: to even be open to the idea of rethinking. Okay, 400 00:23:04,556 --> 00:23:06,396 Speaker 1: And what's what's an issue that you want them to 401 00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:10,076 Speaker 1: be open to rethinking? Um? Oh gosh, there's so many today. 402 00:23:10,196 --> 00:23:14,276 Speaker 1: Let's say immigration reform, Okay, I'm assuming this uncle is 403 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 1: anti immigration, and you're mar pro yeah. I mean the 404 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:19,476 Speaker 1: I already here is that it's a little bit of 405 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:22,036 Speaker 1: hypothetical for me given that I'm from a family of immigrants. 406 00:23:22,036 --> 00:23:25,596 Speaker 1: So yes, let's say the average uncle is anti immigration. Okay. 407 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:29,836 Speaker 1: I think where tactically, where I would starts with motivational 408 00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:33,716 Speaker 1: interviewing principles to recognize that you can't force your uncle 409 00:23:33,756 --> 00:23:36,676 Speaker 1: to change his mind, but you could help him find 410 00:23:36,716 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 1: his own motivation to change his mind. I think one 411 00:23:40,036 --> 00:23:42,796 Speaker 1: of the things I've noticed consistently is I just give 412 00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: a barrage of data points and facts and reasons, and 413 00:23:46,916 --> 00:23:50,876 Speaker 1: the other person either attacks, defends, or withdrawals. And one 414 00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:53,596 Speaker 1: of the things I've seen in research on expert negotiators 415 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:56,556 Speaker 1: comparing them to average negotiators is the experts have a 416 00:23:56,676 --> 00:24:00,316 Speaker 1: higher question to statement ratio, which is also something you 417 00:24:00,356 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 1: see incidentally in productive charge conversations as opposed to conversations 418 00:24:05,476 --> 00:24:07,876 Speaker 1: that just go off the rails. What are some questions 419 00:24:07,916 --> 00:24:10,916 Speaker 1: that I could ask you that might lead you to 420 00:24:11,076 --> 00:24:13,436 Speaker 1: question some of your own beliefs? How did you how 421 00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:15,116 Speaker 1: did you come to that opinion? Like, tell me more 422 00:24:15,116 --> 00:24:18,956 Speaker 1: about what your sources are, I'd love to understand them better. Yeah, 423 00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:21,836 Speaker 1: so you so, it's really important that we ask questions 424 00:24:21,836 --> 00:24:24,916 Speaker 1: and not make statements. And another one that I that 425 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 1: I love. My husband and I were talking about this 426 00:24:26,956 --> 00:24:31,116 Speaker 1: yesterday is asking people what evidence they would need in 427 00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 1: order to change their minds. And the reason I ask 428 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:37,236 Speaker 1: this is that it presupposes that the person ought to 429 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:39,636 Speaker 1: be willing to change their mind in the face of evidence, 430 00:24:39,676 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 1: and that's something that you know, we we can sometimes, 431 00:24:43,316 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 1: you know, not always be even open to in the 432 00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:48,836 Speaker 1: first place. So, yeah, I absolutely love that one, and 433 00:24:48,876 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 1: it really gets people to dig into why it is 434 00:24:51,596 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 1: they believe the thing in the first place. Yeah, I've 435 00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:57,116 Speaker 1: it's it's my go to question whenever I'm in an 436 00:24:57,196 --> 00:25:00,316 Speaker 1: argument and somebody is not Usually it's it's I've presented 437 00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:03,836 Speaker 1: some data already and then the other person rejects the data. 438 00:25:04,636 --> 00:25:06,956 Speaker 1: You know, my instinct is than to just give them 439 00:25:06,956 --> 00:25:10,356 Speaker 1: more data and instead again trying to go into scientists 440 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 1: mode and be curious and say, okay, well, it seems 441 00:25:13,316 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 1: like you're not buying the argument I've made. What evidence 442 00:25:15,836 --> 00:25:20,156 Speaker 1: would change your mind? And it's very rare that anybody 443 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:23,036 Speaker 1: says nothing and once they start to walk through the evidence, 444 00:25:23,076 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 1: I know what kind of data they find convincing. We're 445 00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:29,076 Speaker 1: also agreeing on the standards of conversation, right then, Okay, 446 00:25:29,116 --> 00:25:31,596 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what qualifies as rigorous evidence, 447 00:25:31,756 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: and we can possibly find some consensus on that, even 448 00:25:34,516 --> 00:25:37,356 Speaker 1: if we disagree about how to interpret the evidence. One 449 00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:39,876 Speaker 1: thing that resonated with me when reading the book is 450 00:25:39,956 --> 00:25:43,916 Speaker 1: how is how often people can disagree with an argument, 451 00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:48,196 Speaker 1: not because they actually disagree with it, but because they 452 00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:51,716 Speaker 1: feel in some way like they're being controlled, right, that 453 00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 1: they're being told what to do. So how can we 454 00:25:55,636 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 1: get around this? Well, one of the places where I've 455 00:25:58,716 --> 00:26:00,716 Speaker 1: run into this a lot actually is in office hours 456 00:26:00,716 --> 00:26:04,916 Speaker 1: with my students. I've changed my approach dramatically. What I 457 00:26:04,956 --> 00:26:07,316 Speaker 1: do now is if you come into office hours and 458 00:26:07,396 --> 00:26:09,076 Speaker 1: you say, hey, I'm you know, I'm thinking about this 459 00:26:09,156 --> 00:26:11,356 Speaker 1: banking job, first thing I want to do is I'm 460 00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 1: going to ask you why you're here. What's what's your goal? 461 00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:16,716 Speaker 1: Do you just want my stamp of approval on your 462 00:26:16,716 --> 00:26:20,316 Speaker 1: decision because you already have it, or maybe you're here 463 00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:22,636 Speaker 1: because you want me to point out blind spots in 464 00:26:22,636 --> 00:26:25,036 Speaker 1: your thinking, and you know, invite you to do a 465 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 1: little bit of rethinking, like what is it and whatever 466 00:26:28,196 --> 00:26:30,116 Speaker 1: they say right that that gives me a guide to 467 00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:31,796 Speaker 1: figure out how I can best help them. And at 468 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:34,436 Speaker 1: that point, they don't feel controlled anymore, and I don't 469 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:37,276 Speaker 1: have an agenda anymore. I'm trying to align what their 470 00:26:37,276 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: goals are with the way that I, you know, I 471 00:26:39,196 --> 00:26:42,316 Speaker 1: respond to their questions and life change, I mean honestly 472 00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:45,876 Speaker 1: life changing in my office hours conversations because I've had 473 00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:48,316 Speaker 1: so many tug of war sort of battles like no, 474 00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:51,036 Speaker 1: I think you're making a decision you're going to regret, 475 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 1: and I want to save you from it. And now 476 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:55,196 Speaker 1: it's like, hey, you just you just in you just 477 00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:57,636 Speaker 1: ask me to tell you what you might be missing. 478 00:26:57,916 --> 00:27:01,476 Speaker 1: And then once once I have your permission, I'm not 479 00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:03,476 Speaker 1: trying to influence you anymore. I'm just sharing with you 480 00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:07,396 Speaker 1: what I've learned. Yeah, you're recruiting their own agency, right, 481 00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:08,956 Speaker 1: and we know that that's such a good way to 482 00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:11,596 Speaker 1: describe it. Yeah, It's like people love being in the 483 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:15,356 Speaker 1: driver's seat. Like even with these driverless cars, even if 484 00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:17,676 Speaker 1: the steering wheel doesn't work, it doesn't matter. They just 485 00:27:17,716 --> 00:27:19,396 Speaker 1: want it there. They want to feel like they're in 486 00:27:19,436 --> 00:27:23,316 Speaker 1: control recruiting their own agency. That is a powerful way 487 00:27:23,356 --> 00:27:26,196 Speaker 1: to describe it. And you know, I think once once 488 00:27:26,236 --> 00:27:29,436 Speaker 1: they get to exercise it, sometimes they become more open 489 00:27:29,516 --> 00:27:32,036 Speaker 1: to the advice at the end. So you know, they 490 00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:35,636 Speaker 1: almost never used to ask me which which job should 491 00:27:35,636 --> 00:27:39,156 Speaker 1: I take? And when I start the conversation by asking 492 00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:40,716 Speaker 1: them what their goals are and how can I best 493 00:27:40,716 --> 00:27:42,756 Speaker 1: help them, they almost always at the end of the 494 00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:45,516 Speaker 1: conversation say, well, you know, it's it's been helpful to 495 00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:47,916 Speaker 1: hear some of the things that I've overlooked, or you know, 496 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:50,396 Speaker 1: I appreciated the the insight on the decision process. But 497 00:27:50,436 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 1: what I really want to know is which job do 498 00:27:52,476 --> 00:27:54,556 Speaker 1: you think will make me happier or which one will 499 00:27:54,596 --> 00:27:56,236 Speaker 1: do you help? Do you think will help me succeed? 500 00:27:56,636 --> 00:27:59,116 Speaker 1: And I think my responsibility in that moment is to say, 501 00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:03,836 Speaker 1: I don't know, that is your choice, Yes, that that 502 00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:06,276 Speaker 1: is great, and yeah, like you said, leads to better 503 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:10,116 Speaker 1: outcomes in your office hours. So I think we all 504 00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:14,156 Speaker 1: feel anxious about the next generation and how divisive things 505 00:28:14,236 --> 00:28:16,756 Speaker 1: feel and how much people do dig in their heels. 506 00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:19,876 Speaker 1: One of the other ideas that I thought was so 507 00:28:19,916 --> 00:28:23,796 Speaker 1: great was to invite kids to do multiple drafts of 508 00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:28,916 Speaker 1: things right, to not strive for that, you know, for perfection, 509 00:28:28,996 --> 00:28:31,476 Speaker 1: and also to see that there are many versions of 510 00:28:31,516 --> 00:28:34,236 Speaker 1: this thing that could exist in the world. And I 511 00:28:34,276 --> 00:28:36,316 Speaker 1: was reflecting on that last night, like as a kid 512 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:39,036 Speaker 1: practicing the violin, there was no such thing as a 513 00:28:39,036 --> 00:28:41,676 Speaker 1: final product. And in many ways, I think that helped 514 00:28:41,716 --> 00:28:45,476 Speaker 1: me cultivate this mindset of growth and the fact that 515 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:48,156 Speaker 1: things can always sound different than what it sounded like 516 00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:50,276 Speaker 1: in my head. And I think that was actually very 517 00:28:50,316 --> 00:28:53,036 Speaker 1: positive in terms of the way that I looked at 518 00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:57,396 Speaker 1: honing a craft in general so interesting. Same although mine 519 00:28:57,436 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 1: was not artistic, it was athletic, and that's exactly what 520 00:29:00,756 --> 00:29:03,316 Speaker 1: this idea of sitting down with our kids it was. 521 00:29:03,596 --> 00:29:06,996 Speaker 1: It was eye opening instead of just praising the first 522 00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:09,836 Speaker 1: drawing that they did on a given day. I remember 523 00:29:10,116 --> 00:29:13,196 Speaker 1: saying to our fourth grader, Hey, that's really interesting. Have 524 00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:15,996 Speaker 1: you tried a second draft? And she got excited about 525 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:18,636 Speaker 1: all the things she can rethink. She ended up voluntarily 526 00:29:18,676 --> 00:29:21,836 Speaker 1: doing five drafts and was that much prouder of the 527 00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:23,436 Speaker 1: fifth one than she would have been at the first. 528 00:29:23,836 --> 00:29:26,756 Speaker 1: And it was it was a good both lesson and 529 00:29:26,916 --> 00:29:30,756 Speaker 1: probably reminder for me that kids are not so fragile 530 00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:34,116 Speaker 1: that they need to be told that everything they do 531 00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:37,516 Speaker 1: is great, and sometimes you can highlight the potential in 532 00:29:37,556 --> 00:29:40,676 Speaker 1: them in whatever they've produced or created, and then encouraged 533 00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:44,236 Speaker 1: them to think again and reach that potential. All right, 534 00:29:44,276 --> 00:29:47,396 Speaker 1: have one final question for you, added, I imagine you 535 00:29:47,396 --> 00:29:49,596 Speaker 1: get lots of emails from people who've read your books. 536 00:29:50,396 --> 00:29:53,236 Speaker 1: Can you share any of the best change stories that 537 00:29:53,276 --> 00:29:58,036 Speaker 1: you might have read? Yeah, I actually got a great 538 00:29:58,036 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 1: email last week. Hold On, let me pull it up 539 00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:06,076 Speaker 1: because it was so powerful that I need to read 540 00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,636 Speaker 1: a line from it. Okay, And he said, I'm reaching 541 00:30:09,676 --> 00:30:11,196 Speaker 1: out because I wanted to tell you about something that 542 00:30:11,236 --> 00:30:13,196 Speaker 1: happened to me yesterday that I think he might appreciate. 543 00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:16,116 Speaker 1: He said. It was my first outdoor weekend of the year. 544 00:30:16,476 --> 00:30:20,236 Speaker 1: I was in a hammock finishing Think Again, and right 545 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:22,756 Speaker 1: after I finished it, a kind of twenty twenty one 546 00:30:22,836 --> 00:30:25,116 Speaker 1: year old guy was, you know, just kind of hanging 547 00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 1: out outdoors, and we struck up a conversation and he 548 00:30:30,036 --> 00:30:34,596 Speaker 1: was just expressing all these fears about vaccines, he said. 549 00:30:35,556 --> 00:30:38,636 Speaker 1: The young man immediately voiced his concerns about the vaccines 550 00:30:38,876 --> 00:30:41,316 Speaker 1: and how he's heard some pretty scary things about what 551 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:43,836 Speaker 1: they can do to us. This is where I paused. 552 00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:46,476 Speaker 1: I'd literally just finished a reading think again, not an 553 00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:48,716 Speaker 1: hour before, and now I have someone in front of 554 00:30:48,796 --> 00:30:51,636 Speaker 1: me who has his defenses down, who is clearly expressing 555 00:30:51,636 --> 00:30:54,356 Speaker 1: doubts about the vaccines. I decided to put your book 556 00:30:54,356 --> 00:30:56,236 Speaker 1: to the test. I told the young man that I 557 00:30:56,276 --> 00:30:59,516 Speaker 1: agreed it's very confusing knowing which information on vaccines to 558 00:30:59,556 --> 00:31:02,436 Speaker 1: trust while also trying to stay safe and not get 559 00:31:02,436 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 1: our loved one sick. And I asked him how he 560 00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:08,596 Speaker 1: plans to make an informed decision. He paused, clearly not 561 00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:11,836 Speaker 1: being used to that question, and said he'd use sources 562 00:31:11,836 --> 00:31:14,676 Speaker 1: he trusts. I asked him how he knows which sources 563 00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:17,516 Speaker 1: to trust, which is harder and harder in this day 564 00:31:17,556 --> 00:31:20,876 Speaker 1: and age, and he paused again and said, yeah, it 565 00:31:20,956 --> 00:31:23,956 Speaker 1: is hard, and then said he might call his primary 566 00:31:23,996 --> 00:31:27,596 Speaker 1: care physician and ask for medical advice, and I said 567 00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:31,396 Speaker 1: I would do the same. He said, The story doesn't 568 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:34,116 Speaker 1: end there. We struck up a conversation, we became friends, 569 00:31:34,716 --> 00:31:38,396 Speaker 1: and I'm grateful that I responded to do his stance 570 00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:40,716 Speaker 1: on vaccines in a way that not only possibly opened 571 00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:43,716 Speaker 1: his mind, but more importantly made him feel seen and heard, 572 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:47,116 Speaker 1: and this safety allowed him to open up. And I 573 00:31:47,156 --> 00:31:50,796 Speaker 1: thought that was so cool to see that a beautiful Yeah, 574 00:31:50,876 --> 00:31:53,476 Speaker 1: what an impact. I love that so much. All Right, 575 00:31:53,516 --> 00:31:55,196 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Adam. I'm so glad we got 576 00:31:55,196 --> 00:31:58,116 Speaker 1: a chance to discuss. Oh. I feel like we barely 577 00:31:58,116 --> 00:32:01,756 Speaker 1: scratched the surface. You are so smart and such a 578 00:32:01,876 --> 00:32:05,756 Speaker 1: clear thinker and communicator and asked him almost impossibly difficult 579 00:32:05,836 --> 00:32:07,676 Speaker 1: questions that I'm going to be thinking about for the 580 00:32:07,676 --> 00:32:32,996 Speaker 1: next few weeks. Hey, thanks for listening. Next week I 581 00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:35,516 Speaker 1: talked with Elena Baker, a woman who believed that if 582 00:32:35,556 --> 00:32:38,276 Speaker 1: she could just become thin, she could live her dream life. 583 00:32:38,796 --> 00:32:41,516 Speaker 1: And she did it. She lost close to one hundred 584 00:32:41,516 --> 00:32:44,196 Speaker 1: pounds in five and a half months. But what she 585 00:32:44,276 --> 00:32:47,076 Speaker 1: didn't expect is that she lose herself in the process. 586 00:32:47,596 --> 00:32:53,156 Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, this is the trade off, right, Like, 587 00:32:54,636 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 1: you can get what you want, but you have to 588 00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:01,436 Speaker 1: give up other parts of yourself. And how bad do 589 00:33:01,516 --> 00:33:13,636 Speaker 1: you want this? A slight change of Plans is created 590 00:33:13,676 --> 00:33:17,236 Speaker 1: an executive produced by me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to 591 00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:22,076 Speaker 1: everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board associate 592 00:33:22,116 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 1: producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, Executive producers Mia Lavelle 593 00:33:26,596 --> 00:33:30,876 Speaker 1: and Justine Lange, Senior editor Jen Guera, and sound design 594 00:33:30,916 --> 00:33:35,436 Speaker 1: and mixed engineers Ben Holliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks also 595 00:33:35,516 --> 00:33:38,156 Speaker 1: to Louis Gara who wrote our theme song, and Ginger 596 00:33:38,196 --> 00:33:42,516 Speaker 1: Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, 597 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:46,316 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 598 00:33:46,916 --> 00:33:49,476 Speaker 1: You can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram 599 00:33:49,516 --> 00:34:01,356 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. It was fun to think out loud, 600 00:34:01,356 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 1: but also I'm like, oh, this is why I always 601 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:05,036 Speaker 1: like to be the interviewer, Because I have questions I'm 602 00:34:05,036 --> 00:34:09,036 Speaker 1: going to ask back to you. Next time, we'll trade spots. 603 00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:10,516 Speaker 1: How about that? To be continued me