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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death, starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria QK.

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Speaker 2: Hey, guys, welcome to Mother Knows Death. The news has

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Speaker 2: been so heavy this week and we thought we would

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Speaker 2: lighten it up a little bit and talk to one

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Speaker 2: of our friends, Paul Kunaris. Paul has a PhD in

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Speaker 2: art history from the University of California and has written

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Speaker 2: widely on European oustuaries and charnel houses for both academic

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Speaker 2: and popular journals. He is the author of Empire of Death,

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Speaker 2: a cultural history of ousuaries and Charnowhouses, Memento Mori, the

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Speaker 2: Dead among Us, Heavenly Bodies, Cult Treasures and Spectacular Saints

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Speaker 2: from the Catacombs, a book about domestic felines called a

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Speaker 2: ca Tal that was a Barnes and Noble Book of

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Speaker 2: the Year, and his latest book was called Faithful unto Death,

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Speaker 2: pet Cemeteries, Animal Graves and Eternal Devotion. Hi, Paul, welcome

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Speaker 2: the Mother Knows Death.

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Speaker 1: Hi Nicole, him, Marie, and nice to see you again.

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Speaker 2: All right, So, so we decided that the news has

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Speaker 2: been so crazy this week and we just need a break,

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Speaker 2: and you're the perfect person to bring everyone this break

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Speaker 2: and laughs that we need learning.

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Speaker 1: Over mommies in Indonesia. That's fair.

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Speaker 2: No, listen, our conversations really make me happy. So I

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Speaker 2: just wanted to spread the happiness with everyone. So all right,

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Speaker 2: so let's start. So a couple of weeks ago, you're

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Speaker 2: on a trip. You're always on a trip, and I

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Speaker 2: and I say where are you? And the conversation just

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Speaker 2: goes down all of these crazy lanes and I just

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Speaker 2: I'm like, all right, we need to talk about this

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Speaker 2: with everyone. So let's start off by telling everyone where

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Speaker 2: you were.

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Speaker 1: Well, I had actually when I talked to you. When

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Speaker 1: I spoke to you, I was in Indonesia. I was

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Speaker 1: in Tana Taraja, which is part of the island of Sulawesi,

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Speaker 1: and I was at a mummy festival it's called Manine

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Speaker 1: where they dressed the mummies. But before that, I had

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Speaker 1: actually been in Thailand doing something really fascinating, documenting animal funerals,

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Speaker 1: because there's a temple in Bangkok where they do funerals

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Speaker 1: for pets and they do these Buddhist pet cremations and

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Speaker 1: then they take them down to the river and release them.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of the end of this deathy stuff,

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Speaker 1: it was it was a fantastic here.

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Speaker 2: All right, So you've been to Indonesia before for this,

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Speaker 2: so just I guess go over exactly what happens there.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, if you've never been to Indonesia,

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Speaker 1: the thing you have to understand is that you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a country of islands, which is obviously if

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Speaker 1: you look at a map, but you have to understand

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Speaker 1: that each island is almost like it's own separate country.

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Speaker 1: You know, they have their own customs, they have their

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Speaker 1: own beliefs, they have you know, they have their own culture.

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Speaker 1: And so even within certain islands, because they're large, you

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Speaker 1: can find pockets that are culturally completely different than others.

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Speaker 1: And the Tarajan tradition has always been Tana Taraja being

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Speaker 1: part of the island of Sula Wasi. The Tarajan tradition

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Speaker 1: has always been this fixation on death. The biggest event

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Speaker 1: in your life is actually your death, your funeral. It's

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Speaker 1: not your it's not your birth, it's not your wedding.

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Speaker 1: That's that's you know, in American culture, we all know

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Speaker 1: the thing that costs the most is the wedding, right.

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Speaker 1: You know, people pay out massive amounts of money for

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Speaker 1: wedding in taraja. It's the funeral. People will keep mummies

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Speaker 1: in their home. They'll keep their mummified relatives in their

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Speaker 1: home for sometimes years until they have enough money for

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Speaker 1: the funeral because it involves, you know, accumulating a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of buffaloes and pigs that have to be sacrificed

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Speaker 1: and building these enormous structures. So there's real fixation on death.

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Speaker 1: The death are really the dead are not considered to

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Speaker 1: be gone. The dead are still members of the community.

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Speaker 1: They've just kind of transitioned into another faith. They've transitioned

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Speaker 1: into a silent phase. So they're still members of the community.

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Speaker 1: So even after the funeral, they're not buried in the

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Speaker 1: ground and put away, you know, they're not stigmatizer dewised

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Speaker 1: in a funeral in a cemetery the way they are

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Speaker 1: in the United States. The dead will be placed in

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Speaker 1: above ground family crypts, you know, all one family together

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Speaker 1: in a crypt. And then once a year when the

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Speaker 1: rice crop comes in. So this usually happens in August.

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Speaker 1: Because the rice crop comes in sometimes around August, they

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Speaker 1: have spare time, and it's August kind of becomes a

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Speaker 1: month that they will dedicate to the dead, and so

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Speaker 1: a lot of these families then will open the crypts

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Speaker 1: and they'll take the mummies out, they will clean them,

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Speaker 1: they will lovingly redress them, they'll walk them around the village.

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Speaker 1: You know, they'll talk to them about family life, and

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Speaker 1: they'll re establish this bond with the people who have

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Speaker 1: passed on. Because the dead there aren't dead the way

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Speaker 1: they we are in the United States. The dead there

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Speaker 1: are still parts of the community and they still have

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Speaker 1: a role to play. And so if you show up

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Speaker 1: in August and you tour some of these outlying villages,

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Speaker 1: you can see exactly this the Mononee, this mummy ritual.

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Speaker 1: You can see them opening the tombs, opening the coffins,

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Speaker 1: taking out the mamafa ancestors, cleaning them, redressing them, and

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Speaker 1: walking around them.

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Speaker 2: And they don't mind just Americans going and just observing.

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Speaker 1: No, no, they don't. That becomes an interesting question too,

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Speaker 1: because this has never been too touristy. It's not like

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Speaker 1: Diadello's Weirtos, which is an entire industry and you know,

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Speaker 1: it has lit of thees based around it, like Cocoa,

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Speaker 1: the Monaa has always been very small in terms of outsiders.

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Speaker 1: That is beginning to change, and it will be interesting

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Speaker 1: to see how that culture adapts and how they react

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Speaker 1: to more visitors coming. But I've been four times to

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Speaker 1: this now, and you know, at the most you go

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Speaker 1: to a village and at the most, you know they'll

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Speaker 1: tell you, oh my god, there were so many tourists

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Speaker 1: here today, and at the most it might be about twenty.

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Speaker 1: So it's really still a very small number. It's really

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Speaker 1: just a trickle of people who are coming through Tana

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Speaker 1: Turraja to watch this thing with the mummies. But that

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Speaker 1: is beginning to change, and I don't know if that

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Speaker 1: will have an effect on how they view outsiders. But

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Speaker 1: they've always been very open. They've always been very willing

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Speaker 1: to share this, and they enjoy sharing this. The thing

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Speaker 1: that doesn't come across in the photos, and I know

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Speaker 1: you have some photos and some videos to show that

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Speaker 1: I took. The thing that doesn't come across in the

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Speaker 1: photos is that we think of this. You know, if

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Speaker 1: if we in the United States were to have the

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Speaker 1: ceremony like this where we exhumed our relatives and we

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Speaker 1: redress them, we would think of this as being very something,

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Speaker 1: very somber, and very mournful. It's not there. It's celebratory.

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Speaker 1: It's fun because they don't view the dead the way

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Speaker 1: we view the dead. They don't view them as being gone.

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Speaker 1: They just view them as kind of silent partners in

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Speaker 1: the community. And so this is a fun festival. You know,

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Speaker 1: you'll have people joking around, they'll be they'll light cigarettes

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Speaker 1: and put them in their mouth and the mummy's mouths,

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Speaker 1: and take pictures of the mummies smoking cigarettes. They put

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Speaker 1: funny hats on them, they'll put they themselves, will pose

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Speaker 1: for funny selfies with their own dead relatives. I was

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Speaker 1: in one of these villages. I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: sent this photo, and I don't know if you have it,

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Speaker 1: but in those you've selected for this episode, but uh,

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Speaker 1: dog running around. There was a husband, there was a

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Speaker 1: mummy of a husband and a wife, and their caskets

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Speaker 1: had just been open, and there was this dog running around.

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Speaker 1: And I said, Hey, was that dog owned by this family?

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Speaker 1: And so I told me, yeah, I was. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I would be great to get the dog in the photo.

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Speaker 1: And there was someone else there who was an American.

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Speaker 1: He's like, Oh, that would be really disrespectful. Don't do that.

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Speaker 1: That's really rude. Suggest that it's like, no, I don't

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Speaker 1: think they're gonna mind, And so I had my guide

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Speaker 1: go over and ask him. It's like, hey, what do

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Speaker 1: you think about getting the dog in the photo with

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Speaker 1: the mummies? And they're just like, oh, that's a great idea.

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Speaker 1: That's wonderful. And you know, they brought food over to

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Speaker 1: kind of encourage the dog to stand in front of

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Speaker 1: the mummies. So it's not this somber thing like we

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Speaker 1: tend to think as outsiders. They're very welcome people coming

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Speaker 1: because for them it's a celebration. It's a big party.

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Speaker 1: They love these ancestors and they love sharing this bos.

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Speaker 2: All right, so then we so for those of you

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Speaker 2: that are listening, we do have these videos. This is

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Speaker 2: the first time that we're doing this on mother nos death,

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Speaker 2: so bear with us if it doesn't go according to plan.

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Speaker 2: But I guess we should start with this first video,

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Speaker 2: video number one, of what appears to be a husband

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Speaker 2: and wife. I don't know if this is the same

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Speaker 2: couple you were talking about, are a different one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's them. The dog won't be in the video,

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Speaker 1: but there is a still photo that shows the dog

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Speaker 1: just standing there right in front of them. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's not that's a husband and wife. Their families

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Speaker 1: from the village had opened up the caskets and they

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Speaker 1: cleaned them. I have a bunch of photos of them

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Speaker 1: cleaning them off. Forward. They'll usually clean them off with

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Speaker 1: is a soft brush like a paint brush. So they'll

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Speaker 1: dust them off and clean them and they'll cut away

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Speaker 1: those old clothes and then they'll redress. They'll and and

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Speaker 1: they're very careful. You know. It's like one of the

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Speaker 1: things that's really touching to me is watching them checking

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Speaker 1: the necklace, like the woman's necklace. That particular woman, they

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Speaker 1: were tearfully checking her necklace to make sure all the

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Speaker 1: beads were still on it and to make sure the

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Speaker 1: class was still good.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: They'll take the glasses off and they'll clean the glasses

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Speaker 1: and put the glasses back on. They'll make sure they have,

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Speaker 1: you know, that their watches are still attached properly. And

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Speaker 1: that woman, by the way, this was my favorite detail

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Speaker 1: of that couple. So they were they were cleaning out

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Speaker 1: the woman's coffin because they also cleaned the coffin. You know,

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Speaker 1: if they take the mummies out, they cleaned the coffin.

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Speaker 1: Now they dust the coffin out and get all the

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Speaker 1: junk out of it, and and purse was sitting there.

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Speaker 1: They buried her with a pink purse that matched that

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Speaker 1: shirt she was wearing. And then I saw the guy

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Speaker 1: opening the purse to inspect it as I, oh, what's

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Speaker 1: in her purse? And he pulls out one item. There

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Speaker 1: was one item in this woman's person. It was a dagger.

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Speaker 2: That's so interesting.

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Speaker 3: So when they put this clothing on them, is it

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Speaker 3: new clothing that's bought for the celebration or is it

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Speaker 3: the person's existing clothing or family heirlooms or mix.

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Speaker 1: That's a great question because they oftentimes bury them with

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Speaker 1: a huge variety of their own clothing. As if who knows,

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Speaker 1: maybe the spirit wants to change clothing, you know, mid

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Speaker 1: death or something, they will. Usually they'll have to buy

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Speaker 1: new clothing to put on them when they redress them.

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Speaker 1: And the reason is this, when you think just functionally

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Speaker 1: about robing a corpse, you know, rigor mortis has set in,

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Speaker 1: and so you can watch them. Sometimes they'll show up

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Speaker 1: with with say shirts or dresses in multiple sizes because

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Speaker 1: you can't bend those arms in right, and so sometimes

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Speaker 1: they're gonna have to buy something that's bigger than the

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Speaker 1: person actually wore, to be able to have enough stretch

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Speaker 1: on the garment to get it over their arms and

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Speaker 1: their shoulders. It's interesting. The number one question I get

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Speaker 1: asked about this is does it stink. It's like, no,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't stink any worse than an old shoe, right

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Speaker 1: their old leather by now it's just a little musty.

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Speaker 2: Did they get into the process with you at all?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I was gonna say the number two question

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Speaker 1: I get asked is how do they get a shirt

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Speaker 1: onto a guy whose arms don't move? That's why usually

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Speaker 1: you should say it to me. Yeah. So they used

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Speaker 1: to use natural tens, you know, but nowadays they just

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Speaker 1: use formaldehyde. From aldehyde, They've been doing this for a

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Speaker 1: long time. Obviously they've been doing this, you know. Exactly

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Speaker 1: how long they've doing this is debatable. I've heard people

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Speaker 1: claiming that they've been doing this for Llennia. I have

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Speaker 1: not seen evidence of that, but I've definitely seen mummies

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Speaker 1: that are have got to be about one hundred years old,

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Speaker 1: about the oldest I've seen before they completely fall apart.

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Speaker 1: Nowadays they do it with formaldehyde, and you can tell

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Speaker 1: I did send some stuff over where it wasn't in

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Speaker 1: the tombs but in people's homes. And I've visitored a

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Speaker 1: lot of homes where they do still have the mummies.

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Speaker 1: They are waiting for the funeral and they look amazing,

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Speaker 1: and it's all from this formaldai. They really really shoot

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Speaker 1: them up with a lot of formaldehyde to preserve them.

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Speaker 1: So that's been introduced in it. And so they do

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Speaker 1: use the formal dayde now rather than the natural methods,

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Speaker 1: just because it works much better.

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Speaker 2: This is this is really interesting to me because all right,

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Speaker 2: Ray show first show, pick six, because he was talking

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Speaker 2: about that a little bit earlier about how they clean

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Speaker 2: them up.

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Speaker 1: That's fair.

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Speaker 2: Wait, we have another sit. It's just going to take

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Speaker 2: us back for it to pop up. I think you

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Speaker 2: were saying with the brush that how they clean them all. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so I guess from from a decomposition standpoint. My my

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Speaker 2: question is because they obviously they when a person dies,

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Speaker 2: they're going to have rigor mortis for after death, but

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Speaker 2: that goes away after that goes away after a couple

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Speaker 2: of days for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's the same guy. That's the husband, and

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Speaker 1: you can see he's he's cleaning off the guy's nose.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So they do this that every year when.

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Speaker 1: Well, not necessarily every year the mon in ay goes.

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Speaker 1: This is what gets very confusing because I've had people

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Speaker 1: tell me, you know, I want to go see this,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, what's the schedule, as if there's

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Speaker 1: as if it's you know, some like published schedule somewhere,

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Speaker 1: like like a public holiday in the United States, And

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way. There's about a from two

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Speaker 1: there's about a period of about two weeks to a

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Speaker 1: month where villages might potentially be doing this anywhere from

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Speaker 1: when they bring the rice c up in until when

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Speaker 1: they have to start working on whatever the next thing is.

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Speaker 1: And so there's a period of about a month where

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Speaker 1: they might be doing it, and each village can do

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Speaker 1: it at different times. Not every village chooses to do

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Speaker 1: it every year, and even in the village that does

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Speaker 1: choose to do it, they don't do everybody. So we

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Speaker 1: might be i'd say, all the average, a corpse comes

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Speaker 1: out and is re robed about every three years, I

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Speaker 1: would say, on the average. So you know, this year

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Speaker 1: it was this guy's urn. The guy we're looking at

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Speaker 1: the picture of mom and dad. This year, someone said

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Speaker 1: let's get mom and dad out, and you know, instead

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Speaker 1: of Uncle Pete, let's do mom and dad this year.

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Speaker 1: So they don't do everybody every year. And as I study,

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Speaker 1: it's not every village is doing it at a different time.

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Speaker 1: By the way, you know, watching the guy watching the

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Speaker 1: picture of the guy with the the paintbrush cleaning him up.

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Speaker 1: My favorite guy was someone at one of the villages.

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Speaker 1: I guess he just didn't have enough time. So they

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Speaker 1: opened the coffins and he just walked up with a

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Speaker 1: giant push started sweeping everybody off, two of them at

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Speaker 1: a time.

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Speaker 2: Oh my, all right, so put up picture to ray.

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Speaker 2: So this is my question after so I think that

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Speaker 2: we talked about this in our text, that some of

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Speaker 2: these bodies have a very interesting appearance, because this isn't so.

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Speaker 1: You of course had to use the one where the

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Speaker 1: guy's wearing the fake beer.

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Speaker 2: Mask because this sorry anything about it, as if this

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Speaker 2: is normal. Now, this this is amazing. When you sent this,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, like, I'm so fortunate to be friends

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Speaker 2: with someone that has the opportunity to take a photo

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Speaker 2: like this. I just don't even know where to start.

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Speaker 1: This is his grandmother I so regarding the mask, a

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Speaker 1: lot of them do wear masks. I actually I try

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Speaker 1: when I take the photos to take more photos of

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Speaker 1: people out them without masks than with masks, just because

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Speaker 1: it creates it's not some kind of like you know,

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Speaker 1: COVID thing. And that's why I try to get away

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Speaker 1: from that symbolism because when Americans see that, you know,

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Speaker 1: when they see masks now they think of COVID. It's

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Speaker 1: not because they think they're gonna get COVID. It's not

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Speaker 1: because they think they're going to get some infection from

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Speaker 1: the dead people. It's simply from dust because there's so

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Speaker 1: much dust. Like I've watched some of these mummies getting

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Speaker 1: blown off, you know, brushed off for the dust, and

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Speaker 1: it's like a fog machine that's gone off because it's

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Speaker 1: not just dusty and the tom you know, the skin

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Speaker 1: is deteriorating. So you got these skin particles accumulating, they're

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Speaker 1: brushing them off and it creates a kind of cloud.

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Speaker 1: And so a lot of times they do wear the

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Speaker 1: masks for the dust. That's why this is guy, this

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Speaker 1: guy's wearing this mask. I don't know why he chose

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Speaker 1: this particular mask, but he, Uh, you know it's it's

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Speaker 1: for us, and and you know, this is a great

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Speaker 1: picture actually because he it makes that point that I

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Speaker 1: was trying to make that this is fun, this is celebratory.

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Speaker 1: This guy is not mocking it. He's just having fun

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Speaker 1: with it. He's like, you know, I'm gonna go take

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Speaker 1: Grandma out and I'm gonna wear the funny mask.

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Speaker 2: Do you since you've been all over the world looking

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Speaker 2: at different cultures and and have had experience with multiple

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Speaker 2: different kinds of mummies, do you think that these ones

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Speaker 2: look a little bit different than other ones that you've

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Speaker 2: seen as far as this, I'm I'm just curious about

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Speaker 2: the decomposition process, just because of the this particular just

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Speaker 2: because of the way are treating the bodies, and then

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Speaker 2: the particular environment they're in versus somewhere like Sicily that

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Speaker 2: has a completely different environment, right that.

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Speaker 1: That's a tough question to answer, because when they've been

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Speaker 1: desiccated to this extent, they all kind of start to

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Speaker 1: look the same. Dried skin inevitably starts to look like

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Speaker 1: dried skin. There are differences here. The coloration of these

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Speaker 1: is significantly significantly different than the coloration of the mummies

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Speaker 1: I've seen in places like Sicily. But then again, these

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Speaker 1: people have a different tonal pigment to their skin, so

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Speaker 1: maybe that's it. Maybe it's simply the tonal pigment to

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Speaker 1: their skin. You would know this better than I. I

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Speaker 1: think maybe the you know, you'd know the answer to

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Speaker 1: this better than I. But maybe the tonal coloration of

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Speaker 1: their skin is still preserved for a while versus some

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Speaker 1: I don't know environmental environmental issue.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because I did say that I knewed

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Speaker 2: you put that picture back up, that there's something called

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Speaker 2: so you on top of the mummification, there's also something

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Speaker 2: called adipus here which I could see, which is something

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Speaker 2: that is a more rare thing that happens during the

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Speaker 2: decomposition process, which is specific to being inside of an

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Speaker 2: environment that doesn't have any air, particularly like if someone's

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Speaker 2: buried in soil, for example, not in a box in soil,

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Speaker 2: but like just no and no air. Environment that's also moist,

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Speaker 2: which is which is why I'm getting there with the

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Speaker 2: environment there, because it's a little bit more like tropical

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Speaker 2: like there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's well, it's certainly yes, and no tarage is

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Speaker 1: at elevation and it's one of the least tropical, one

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Speaker 1: of the least tropical is one of the least human

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Speaker 1: areas I've been in.

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Speaker 3: Cha.

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Speaker 1: But that being said, yes, it's still it's still probably

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Speaker 1: more humid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just like I mean, it's humid less humid there,

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Speaker 2: but compared just because typically the mummification process is to

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Speaker 2: remove water. That's how you get like a true mummified body.

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Speaker 2: But because you really can't just because it's in the air,

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Speaker 2: that's what might be creating this specific like the more

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Speaker 2: yellow white look with these patches here. It's just something

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Speaker 2: that I was curious about. That's all, all right? Reput

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Speaker 2: up photo three three, Okay, so I'll describe the photo

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Speaker 2: for those who are just listening. It appears to be

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Speaker 2: a husband and wife who are wearing baseball hats, and

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Speaker 2: there's a daughter and a son who seemed to be

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Speaker 2: ten to twelve to thirteen years old range. And they're

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Speaker 2: holding a child, a mummy child that's wearing a dress,

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Speaker 2: and it looks like a the most awkward family photo ever,

378
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Speaker 2: write them. But the guy's wearing a Yankees hat, and

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Speaker 2: you're your.

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Speaker 1: Well, there were the whole family wearing Yankee hats, and.

381
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Speaker 2: What happened when you asked them?

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Speaker 1: You well, I asked them about the Yankees, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I asked it because the whole family of wearing the

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Speaker 1: Yankee hats. I asked them, It's like, hey, so you

385
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Speaker 1: guys like the Yankees. They're like, you know, they're just hats,

386
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Speaker 1: and uh. Some of them were like yeah Yankees. Nice

387
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Speaker 1: and who's your who's your favorite player? And some girls

388
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Speaker 1: in Big Ruth.

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Speaker 2: So so so then this, all of these conversations get

390
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Speaker 2: really good when I'm having a text with Paul. So

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Speaker 2: of course when I look at this photo, my first

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Speaker 2: question is like, well, what happened to this kid? And

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Speaker 2: he's like, she died.

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Speaker 1: It's not untrue, no, I I know not. Keep in

395
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Speaker 1: mind that compared to the United States, infant mortality is

396
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Speaker 1: very high in Indonesia in general, and especially in Tan

397
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Speaker 1: of Turaja, so it's not surprising to find a high

398
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Speaker 1: percentage of infant mummies. One of the more touching things

399
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Speaker 1: on this trip was a family that was cleaning off

400
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Speaker 1: the remains of a baby that had died at the

401
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 1: age of four hours, so it had barely lived at all.

402
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: It hadn't even lived for a day, and I don't

403
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Speaker 1: know if you recall I did send you some pictures

404
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 1: of that and you had mentioned, you know, I was like, wow,

405
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: this kid was really young that because the sutures on

406
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 1: the skull hadn't even closed, they were still open. The

407
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 1: skull was still fragmented. It was, you know, still in

408
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Speaker 1: multiple pieces. And this kid had died something like twenty

409
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: years ago. But when you think about it, it really

410
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: is a very touching esther to allow this child who

411
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: never had a chance to life had life to continue

412
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Speaker 1: to live on in a way as a beloved member

413
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Speaker 1: of the family and as a member of the community.

414
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Speaker 1: And so they were very very careful and very verry

415
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Speaker 1: gentle with this infant's remains, you know, like checking like

416
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: because you also, the normal mollification process apparently that they're

417
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: that they're using apparently can't really be done with infants

418
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Speaker 1: in the same way it can be done with grown ups,

419
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Speaker 1: and so this one was more skeleton. So they were

420
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Speaker 1: very careful, you know, going through and checking all the

421
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: clothing for every tiny little towbone and every tiny little

422
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Speaker 1: finger bone and making sure that every part of this

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00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: kid was still in there. And it was really, like

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Speaker 1: I said, it was probably the most touching moment of

425
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Speaker 1: this trip to see this, this infant that had died

426
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Speaker 1: it just a few hours, still still receiving still well,

427
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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, still receiving love, but receiving the

428
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Speaker 1: love that had never had an opportunity to receive in live.

429
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 3: So some of these people keep the mummies in their homes.

430
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 4: Correct, Yeah, as I said, it's because the funeral process

431
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 4: is so lengthy and it can take years and years

432
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 4: to get enough money for the funeral.

433
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: I've visited people who've had mummies in their homes for

434
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: you know, to ten years, like really a very long time.

435
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: The first time I went to Taraja, things really got

436
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: put in perspective for me when I had a guide

437
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: by the name of a Goost, and I asked him

438
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: whether he knew anybody who kept mummies in the hole,

439
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: because I would like to visit some mummies at home.

440
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: And he started telling me a story and he said, well,

441
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: you know, when I was a kid, we had the

442
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: mummy of my grandfather at the home. It just lived

443
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 1: with us and every morning, you know, we'd stand it

444
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: up in the corner and you know, we'd put its

445
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: day clothes on, and then in the evening, we put

446
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: its pajamas on and we would just put it in

447
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: the bed and my brother and I would sleep with

448
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: his mummy.

449
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 2: This when you say this, which is not well, normally.

450
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: They don't sleep with the mummy. They're usually in home

451
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: with the coffin. But Goose was an older guy and

452
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: maybe that's how they did it back in the day.

453
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: It's just.

454
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: With his grandfather's mummy.

455
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: Like to hear that as an American, it just sounds

456
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 2: so so weird. But but like when you hear, when

457
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: you really think about it, how you're telling the story

458
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 2: and stuff, it's it's like we're the weird ones because

459
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: they're they're able to get on with their life and

460
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: not be devastated by the death of someone, which is

461
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 2: I mean, we need to bring more of that here.

462
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: So it's just not so terrible because people die all

463
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: the time accidentally, uh just naturally die younger than they should,

464
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 2: and sometimes it completely ruins their family's life because of it.

465
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: And this is we are the weird ones historically and culturally,

466
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: because when you look at death culture across the world,

467
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: and you look at it historically, the dead had never

468
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: really been ghetto wised the way they are in American

469
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: and European culture until around the last century, until really

470
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 1: the beginning of the twentieth century is when we really

471
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 1: started going at it in this way. It used to

472
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: be very common for people to die at home and

473
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: to keep the body at home, sometimes for a lengthy

474
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: period for the funeral. Even within Europe. You know those

475
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: those great collections of mummies in Italy sometimes you know

476
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: in Palermo, for instance, thousands and thousands of them. That

477
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 1: was still going until the early twentieth century. And you know,

478
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: we're the one who changed it and then projected this

479
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: idea that we now have a lot of. It had

480
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: to do with hygiene laws, and it's understandable as metropolitan

481
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: areas became extremely large. You know, in the medieval world,

482
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: they didn't have cities of millions and millions of people.

483
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: They didn't have millions of people they needed to inhue

484
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: and so you know, when you have millions of dead people,

485
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: you do have to start making an accommodation. Part of

486
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: the reason they made all those giant cemeteries in Paris

487
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: when they did is there were certain neighborhoods where the

488
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: groundwater in that neighborhood was being contaminated by corpse juice,

489
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: you know, because they were bearing them in the local churchyards,

490
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: and the and the churchyards themselves had become so exhaust

491
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: the soil had become the nutrients in the soil that

492
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: would process the bodies had become so exhausted that they

493
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: could no longer process human flesh, and so the bodies

494
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: were basically just oozing out into the groundwater. And it is,

495
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: you know, it is a sincere public health concern if

496
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: you've got that going on. So in some ways we

497
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: had to change things. We had no choice when when

498
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: our population exploded and these metropolitan areas became very huge.

499
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: But historically and cross culturally, we are the weird ones

500
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: for doing things the way we're doing now and then

501
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: projecting that idea across the rest of the world. And

502
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 1: it's like, hey, look what you're doing. You people over

503
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: there are a bunch of savages. You're playing with the dead.

504
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: This isn't the this isn't the way. It's you know,

505
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: this isn't the objectively true way we're supposed to have

506
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: a relationship with the dead. And it's just nonsense. It's

507
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's this false humorous that the way we

508
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: do things, and that the method that we've invented for

509
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: our culture is somehow right, and it should be right

510
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: for everybody. And like as I said, and you said,

511
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: we're the weird one. We came up with something that

512
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: is historically very different than humanity had been doing it

513
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: for millennia. It's very sterile here.

514
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've had a couple of stories in the news

515
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: over the past couple of years that have been like

516
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: a husband's wife died and he was living with the

517
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: dead body in his house for months, sometimes even longer.

518
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: And it kind of sucks because these people get in

519
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 2: trouble for this, and you yea, And in other cultures

520
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: it would just be considered, of course, like you don't

521
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: want you to leave your wife's body sometimes, and even

522
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: though the decomposition process can be a very gross thing,

523
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: when you're in love and you have a connection with someone,

524
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: you kind of can overlook that.

525
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: Right. He was something that that I realized when I

526
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: was working on those mummies in Sicily, that if you

527
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: had gone back in time into the nineteenth century in Palermo,

528
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: you know Norman Bates, Well, we'll leave out the murder part,

529
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: but Norman Bates would have been considered a loving son,

530
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: you know, for preserving his mother and um mummifying her

531
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: and dressing her up and continuing this relationship with her.

532
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: This one he would have that would have been considered

533
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: an act well, and you know, by the nineteen fifties

534
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: it was considered the act of a criminal lunt.

535
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a good a good piece for a horror film.

536
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: It's kind of amazing.

537
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: This episode is brought to you by the Grossroom.

538
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: Guys, the Grossroom is on sale for only one more day.

539
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: Right on Friday, we are done with the sale and

540
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't go on sale that much, so you really

541
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: should take advantage of it. It is only twenty dollars

542
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: for a whole entire year of gross which includes articles,

543
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Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of articles going back to twenty nineteen,

544
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Speaker 2: with photos, videos. It's a lot. And it's only twenty

545
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: dollars for the year, and every single day you get

546
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: new materials, so it's just endless. This week's high profile

547
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: or celebrity death dissection is on Charlie Kirk and there's

548
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: a lot of activity on that. It's really awesome because

549
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: we're all having a conversation that is civil about it.

550
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: Just talking about the forensics and the investigations. So check

551
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: that out.

552
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 3: Head over to the grossroom dot com now to sign up.

553
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: Ray show video too, because this one's got a good

554
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: story if you're willing to tell it. All right, sound on, yeah,

555
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: keep the sound on.

556
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: Okay, this is the kid, isn't it.

557
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, So this guy is shaking this maybe like

558
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: it's a Morocco.

559
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing you're hearing rattling is his brain. There

560
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: is a great story with this, a couple of great stories,

561
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: weird stories, and the viewer will have to decide what

562
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: they think is credible. But with that preface, the first

563
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: time I had been to to Raja and I had

564
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: mentioned that I I've already mentioned that, I asked my

565
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: guide whether he knew anybody with mummies in the house,

566
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: and he said to me, yeah, you know, I know

567
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: a place where they have this mommified's little girl. She

568
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: lives in the house. It's their daughter. She was found

569
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: in a crypt somewhere. No one knew who she No

570
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: one knew who she was. They felt she was lonely

571
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: or they felt they heard her crying. So to the home,

572
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: this is that girl. This was about ten years ago

573
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: when I first met her, I wrote a book called

574
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: Momento Mori and I included that story and it included

575
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: tootos of her. Since that time, every time I've gone

576
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: back to Taraja, I've asked about this little girl, and

577
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: no one knows what has happened to this mummy this

578
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: little girl. People said, no, we've never seen this mommy.

579
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: We don't know anything about her, don't We don't know

580
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: what you're talking about. So I had never known what

581
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: had happened to this little girl. And then on this

582
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: last trip this year in August, I asked my guide,

583
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to set up some tours homes

584
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: or they have mommies living there. And we had visited

585
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: a couple and then he came to me and he said, yeah,

586
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: there's apparently a woman named Susan who's mummified in a

587
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: home very far from me, by a couple hours drive.

588
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: But they said we could go and meet her, and

589
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: so we drove out there, and we got there and

590
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: the guy comes out. He's the head of the village.

591
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: The guy shaking her is that guy. He's the head

592
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: of the village. He comes out, he brings out some

593
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: coffee and some sticky rice. And he said, well, I'd

594
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: like to talk to you about her and and drink

595
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: some coffee with you first before we meet her, because

596
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: she she's a very special mummy. And I said, you know,

597
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: so we sat down and we talked to the guy

598
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: and he said, well, first of all, her name is Susan,

599
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: and she's very small. It's like, how small, He's like,

600
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: she weighs about a pound. She is very small. By boy,

601
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: It's like, that's odd. And I started to get the

602
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: impression when when he was describing this mummy that this

603
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: might be a chavoo. And then he said something about

604
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: and she told me that an old friend was coming

605
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: to visit her today. It's like she won. And sure

606
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: enough he brought her out and it was her. It

607
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: was that little girl that I had met ten years

608
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: ago and had lost track of. He believes that she

609
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: has she has kind of quasi magical powers. He says

610
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: he talks to her in dreams, that in the dreams

611
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: she jumps up and down on his bed and he

612
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: touches her foot. She touches his foot and tickles it.

613
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:07,959
Speaker 1: And the track of her is because someone came to

614
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: the village and tried to buy her, and they had

615
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: decided to hide her away in the house of the

616
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: guy who's in charge of the village. Head of the village. Though,

617
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: no one would be tempted to steal her and sell

618
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: her because then, first of all, she's considered a member

619
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: of the community. Now, so that would be a heinous act,

620
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: you know, it would be like selling someone into slavery.

621
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: But so they believe they could be cursed, you know,

622
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: she's sold ethically cursed as well as maybe by her

623
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: she has magical power. The thing that gets really weird

624
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: about this story is I asked who tried to buy her,

625
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: and he said a guy had come to the village

626
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: saying that he was a representative of the Saudi Arabian

627
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: army and that he heard they that he had heard

628
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 1: they had some magical mummy, and he offered an amount

629
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: of money that that I'm just telling you guys what

630
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: he told. Okay, offer, I said, how much did he offer?

631
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: And he gave me an amount of money that when

632
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 1: I did the conversion would have been around almost four

633
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: million dollars US dollars. And I said, that can't be wrong.

634
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: Are you sure? You're you know the Saudis can afford this,

635
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: but why does the Saudi army need a magical baby mummy?

636
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: But I asked him, I was like, are you sure

637
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: we're talking about the right number, like because in current

638
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: if you've been to Indonesia, you know that currency exchange

639
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: is tricky because the rapia is so low. It's like

640
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: sixteen thousand to a dollar. And I saysthing, are you

641
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: streaman billions and not millions? Because if he knocked three

642
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: zeros off of it, it would be something right around

643
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: four thousand dollars, which might make a little bit more

644
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: than nod well, more than I've got to spend on

645
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: a mummy, let's say that way. Why anyway, that's why not?

646
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: He taught me, no, no, this was the amount that

647
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: he offered, but it doesn't which it would be enough

648
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: to rebuild the village, you know, a dozen times. But

649
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: he told me no, that he the guy had offered

650
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: that account. But it didn't matter. She wasn't for sale

651
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: for any price. But if you're wondering about shaking her around,

652
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: he wanted to show that her brain is still there.

653
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: That was the point, he said, you know, her brain

654
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: is still in there, and so he started shaking her

655
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: like a rocket show that her brain. He also and

656
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: I found this funny. He started complaining, oh is the

657
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: sound on? I think the sounds off. Yeah, yess yeah.

658
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: So he also started bringing that the brain doesn't rattle,

659
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: which I think it's probably ys. So the brain is

660
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: probably breaking into smaller pieces.

661
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, as he exactly, it's kind of fragile.

662
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, set by it that her brain was not rattling

663
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: the way it should. Wow.

664
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: That it's just so. I mean, the amount of money

665
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: is insane, but it's so. I had asked you because

666
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: you're like, what's the connection between Saudi Arabia and Indonesia,

667
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: But you were, which I didn't realize that about the

668
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: religions there, and that got us into another conversation of

669
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: you saying that Indonesia was primarily.

670
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: Indonesia's primarily Moslim. But all these people with the mummy,

671
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: and we haven't mentioned this yet and we should discuss it.

672
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: Taraja is the Catholic part of it. All these people

673
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: with the mummies are Catholics, which you know, to a

674
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: Catholic in the United States, this is a very weird

675
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: and perverse practice if it's considered Catholic. But you have

676
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: to remember that. You know, Catholicism always takes on two forms.

677
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: Any religion really takes on two forms, but especially Catholicism.

678
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,479
Speaker 1: You travel around the world, there's something about Catholicism where

679
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: it tends to vary more from place to place than

680
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: other religions. You'll have the doctrinal version of Catholicism as

681
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: they practice it in the Vatican, and then you'll have

682
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: the localized version. And so this happens to be Tarajian.

683
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: Catholicism has this intense focus on the dead, and I'll

684
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: get asked questions about these photos a lot. It's like, well,

685
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: you know, what's what do they believe about the afterlife?

686
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: What's the spiritual connection? It's like, well, they're Catholics, you know.

687
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: And then people want some you know, people want some

688
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: really lengthy anthropological answer about you know, some trip down

689
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: a magical river and such and such, you know with

690
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: the mummies, and it's it's like they're actually just Catholics.

691
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: All these tombs they have a cross, right, you know,

692
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: all these they keep the money, they've got to cross

693
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: right outside the door, and they've got a picture of

694
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: Jesus and Mary. They're just Catholic.

695
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: Well, assuming in Palermo. They're also Catholics, correct.

696
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: That's right. So it's interesting that.

697
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: That they were doing the mummies too, I wonder.

698
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: But again it's not It wasn't mormal, all right.

699
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I wanted to bring

700
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 2: up to was that this is just cool from a

701
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: medical perspective. Some of the some of the mummies, and

702
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: also these skulls we'll talk about too, that they actually

703
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: have signs of some kind of medical intervention, which is

704
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: cool to show Show pick five first. This this one

705
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 2: has dentures, which is kind of cool that they just

706
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: left there. So we'll see things like that too.

707
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 1: I suppose, yeah, well, she's gonna want her dentures, right,

708
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: She's It would be an affront to her to bury

709
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: her without the dentures, wouldn't it, especially if they don't

710
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: consider the dead to be dead the way we do.

711
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: You know, they leave, Okay, so we've already seen people

712
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: where they leave the glasses on them, they leave the

713
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: watches on them, they leave their jewelry on them. Why

714
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't they leave the dentures.

715
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: It's it's it's just really cool because you get this

716
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: unusual opportunity to view a lot of people in this

717
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: this interesting preservation and it's cool to see certain things.

718
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: Like the next one we're gonna show is, let's look

719
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: at number seven. So this so you have other photos

720
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: from this trip of all of these skulls that are

721
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: where are they exactly located?

722
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So this is also in Indonesia. This guy obviously

723
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: had brain operation of some kind and it looks it

724
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,959
Speaker 1: looks like he might have died of it. Right, there's

725
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: not much healing going on around those cuts. But this

726
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: is not from Taraja, This is from Bali. This is

727
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: from Indonesia too. Bali is the Hindu part of Indonesia.

728
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: This obviously with the skull is not a Hindu practice.

729
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: There's one part of Bali called Trunion that never converted

730
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: to Hindu it so they are the original Balanese and

731
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: so they still practice the original what we consider the

732
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 1: more pagan practices in Bali. They have three different cemeteries

733
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: for three different classes of people. There's a cemetery for babies,

734
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: there's a cemetery for single people, and there's cemetery for

735
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: married people. And what they'll do, especially at that second cemetery,

736
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: they the dead are allowed. It's a natural green burial. Effectively,

737
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: the dead are laid out on the ground. They put

738
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: the they build what amount to kind of like bambootipies

739
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: over them to keep monkeys out. To keep the monkeys

740
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: from chewing them, they build these kind of bamboot teepees

741
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: over them to protect them. There's room for only a

742
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,919
Speaker 1: certain number of graves out there because it's a small

743
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: piece of land. There's a giant tree. It's a banion

744
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: tree that naturally deodorizes the area and sought to protect

745
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 1: the spirits of the dead. And every time someone new dies,

746
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: since there are very few barrier space, there's very few

747
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: spaces for these bamboo tipee things. Every time someone new dies,

748
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: they take someone who has been decomposed and they take

749
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: their their bones and they put them over in a

750
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: big pile. And this is the Trunnion Cemetery. So if

751
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: it's on an island, you can only get there by boat.

752
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: It's on an island in Lake Patoure. And so if

753
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: you go to Trunnion and you go to the dock,

754
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: you can take a boat ride out to the cemetery

755
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: and they'll just let you wander around and take pictures

756
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: and be all this stuff and you can look in

757
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: the deepees and see the people who are decomposed. There's

758
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: one guy who on this trip, there was one guy

759
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: who had only been there for a couple of days.

760
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: He was very new. Like, you'll find some interesting things

761
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: in that bone pile because you will see, as you said,

762
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: a lot of signs of some of the medical interventions

763
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: or operations that people might have had.

764
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, this one's cool. So this guy definitely had a craniotomy.

765
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: For those of you who are listening, it's a surgery

766
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: as Paul's had a brain surgery. It's a perfect square

767
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 2: on the side of the temporal bone over here, and

768
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: there's four burholes on each corner, and there's hardware that

769
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 2: are taking it, that are adhering it to the skull.

770
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: So this person had some kind of a brain injury

771
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: where they had to allow for swelling of the brain.

772
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: And this is a surgery they could do on people

773
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: that survive it, too, but they have to because the

774
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: brain is so tight within the cranial cavity. They have

775
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 2: to open a hole basically to let it swell out,

776
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 2: to give it room, and the thought that it would

777
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: swell back down and then they could just put it

778
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: back basically, and they use this hardware to do it,

779
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 2: and it's it's really cool that you get to see

780
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff on people. Do they do they

781
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: ever have problems with people going and robbing these remains

782
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: to sell them on the market because people want skulls.

783
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was actually going to say something about that

784
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: to my eye. And I've been to Trunnion several times

785
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 1: because every time I passed through Indonesia, if I stop

786
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: in Bali, I do go to Trunnion and you know,

787
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: just see who's new in the little teepee, see who's died,

788
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: and see what's been added to the unpop. I think

789
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: there are a lot less skulls now than there used

790
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: to be, So yes, I think they do have a

791
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,919
Speaker 1: problem with theft, but I don't I don't necessarily think

792
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: it's Westerners who are sealing them. It would be very

793
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 1: hard to get out to Trunnion, to that island as

794
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: Western because you need to depart from their dock on

795
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: a boat, and if you are departing from their dock

796
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 1: on your boat, they know they'd see you. And there's

797
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: really no way to get to that cemetery except on

798
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: a boat. I think it might be some shady locals

799
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 1: who are maybe stealing them and selling them to outsiders,

800
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: which yeah, it's just as bad. I mean, you know,

801
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: the skull traffic. It's our fault. We're the ones, you know,

802
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: we're the ones who are buying. If we weren't buying

803
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: these things and they wouldn't be selling, there would be

804
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: no interest in stealing them. But I definitely think that

805
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: there are less skulls there than when I first went.

806
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I can't imagine that a Westerner would be

807
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're just traveling on an airplane, that

808
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 2: just would not be possible to I mean, how are

809
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: you going to get it home? I guess unless you

810
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: could ship it somehow. But I see what you're saying though,

811
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: it's just less likely that they're going to do that.

812
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: But who knows, because we you know, we all have them.

813
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: So like where are they coming from? Originally? You know,

814
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: sometimes you get an antique store or whatever, but you

815
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: have to think, like, well, where did it come from

816
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 2: before that? You know?

817
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: When I So there's a somewhat analogous practiced to some

818
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: of this in Bolivia, in La Pause, there's a festival

819
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: called Yesterday Lost in Gatitas, and it's on every November eighth,

820
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: and I went there something like twelve years in a row.

821
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: And so the world's largest skull festival. And every year

822
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: on November eight, these people who live with skulls in

823
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: their homes as you know, spiritual protectors and helpers and guardians,

824
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: they take the skulls back to the cemetery and they have

825
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: this giant party for them, and you can go down

826
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 1: to the cemetery. At one time you could buy three

827
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 1: human skulls at that cemetery for ten dollars that it

828
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: was kind of like a special deal. This was at

829
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: one point in time, meaning like a long long time ago,

830
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: like the first time I had ever gone down. But

831
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: because in La Pause, in that cemetery, you're renting grave site.

832
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 1: You don't purchase it in two you have to keep

833
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: paying rent on it. And at some point in time,

834
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: you know, however, many generations down the line, you know,

835
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: someone's gonna stop paying the rent on your grave. And

836
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: if you walk around the cemetery, you'll see your fiction

837
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: notices on some of the graves. You know, it's like

838
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: a quit notice, and so those people get removed and

839
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be taken into this. Basically, you're supposed

840
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: to be putting a mass pit in a mass grave,

841
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: but a lot of those skulls were getting sold by

842
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: the grave diggers. And so yeah, you can buy skulls

843
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: and other parts of the world significantly cheaper than in

844
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: the United States. As you said, there's an issue with

845
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: getting them back into the United States, but there's no

846
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,919
Speaker 1: problem buying them in other parts of the world. When

847
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: I used to travel in Peru, it was very easy

848
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 1: to buy skulls at at the black market in Lima.

849
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: They were all over the place. I even had a

850
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: woman show up at my hotel doors. Woman knocks on

851
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 1: my hotel door and I opened it up and she

852
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: had a bag and she opened up with the bag

853
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: and there was this MoMA fight head and bag to

854
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: somebody that's hand the toe room. Because she had seen

855
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: me looking at the skulls at the black market. And

856
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, I chase I chased her out. That head

857
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: had come from that that head had come from, uh,

858
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: you know, anhink and bury all. It was plunder hell

859
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: out of here. I don't want that thing in my room.

860
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: That's a bust. And you can buy the skulls olive

861
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: or someplace like that. You can't buy the moment fighted

862
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: heads that are stolen too.

863
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that that just seems like it would be cursed too.

864
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 2: But I think it's funny that she was just like,

865
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: you look like the type that would like what I

866
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 2: have in this.

867
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: Bag here, and I'm not gonna buy it.

868
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I I get that, all right. There was

869
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: one other photo that you talked about earlier. I just

870
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 2: wanted to put up when you were saying that how

871
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: they dressed up the mummies and stuff. Wait, which one

872
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: is it a picture for? Is just shows that they're

873
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: putting a cigarette in the mummy's hand.

874
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the photo.

875
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so cool. You just the way that

876
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: you capture these photos is just like unlike anything, It

877
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: almost seems not real.

878
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: Right. First well, first of all, it can hurt them now.

879
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: And second of all, like I said, it's the mistake

880
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: that we make when we confine ourselves to just looking

881
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: at the photos or the videos. The mistake we make

882
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: is thinking that this is some very somber ceremony, like

883
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 1: people are weeping, and you know, like everybody is marching

884
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: in silence up to the dead person, and like you know,

885
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: you know, deflecting their gaze. True, it's supposed to be fun.

886
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be celebratory. We saw the guy in

887
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: the funny mask before, you know, we see the people

888
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: with the cigarettes, you know, like I said, the people

889
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: let me pose the dog with the mummy. It's supposed

890
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: to be fun, you know. And look at it this way.

891
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: If you were a corpse that hadn't been out of

892
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: the box for three years, wouldn't you want to come

893
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: out and have fun instead of having everybody shut up

894
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: and silent around you.

895
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would totally be into this. I

896
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: don't know if my town would be into it.

897
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 3: Well, Paul, I think the way you explained death in

898
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 3: other cultures is so beautiful because I think a lot

899
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 3: of our listeners are not a lot I think some

900
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 3: of our listeners might look at this and think it's strange,

901
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 3: especially with the sterile nature of funerals and death in

902
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 3: Western society.

903
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: But when you are.

904
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 3: Showing these pictures and documenting them and taking the time

905
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 3: to learn these people's stories and the process, it's so

906
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 3: cool to see. And it opened my eyes as somebody

907
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 3: that wasn't really open to you know, seeing something like

908
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 3: this to how really respectful and honorable it could be.

909
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: Well, and I love the fact that they happen to

910
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: be Catholic. I think that's a wonderful part of it. Yeah,

911
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: because if you wannt to write it off as you know,

912
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: it's like, well, it's just some you know, perverse, exotic thing.

913
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: Come back to the fact that they're Catholic. I mean,

914
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: I yes, there are people who want to write off

915
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: all of Catholicism, reverse thing, I suppose, but it's no,

916
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a religion that people practice in

917
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 1: the United States too. It's a religion that is that

918
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: is headquartered in Italy, and this just happens to be

919
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: the local manifestation of it. So it's another tie that

920
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: lets us know that just as different as this is,

921
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,919
Speaker 1: there's a commonality these people and with us.

922
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: This is actually less weird to me than what we

923
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 2: would do in our family as a traditional Catholic viewing,

924
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 2: which is, you know, embalming a person and then putting

925
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: makeup on them to try to make them look like

926
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: they're alive. It's just the weird. It's so weird imposing them.

927
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 2: It's just it's weird.

928
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: Well, and it's funny because they think that our practice is,

929
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 1: you know, if you talk to them about it, like, well,

930
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: you know, we put a bunch of makeup on the

931
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,720
Speaker 1: you know, they kind of swell up like a balloon.

932
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 1: We put a bunch of makeup on them and will

933
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: bury them in the ground. Like, oh, that sounds kind

934
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 1: of savage.

935
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 2: It is, like it really is when you sit there obviously,

936
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 2: you know, like all the stuff that's been happening in

937
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: the news, and Charlie Kirk's wife had posted a video

938
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: of herself kind of crying over his body at his viewing,

939
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: and people really freaked out about this video just because

940
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 2: his hands. They thought his hands looked terrible. And I

941
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 2: keep bringing up the point like he's dead and she's

942
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 2: alive holding his hands, but her hand is alive, and

943
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 2: his hand has actually been so Number one, he bled out,

944
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 2: so he was pal as hell, he's been embalmbed, and

945
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 2: he has makeup on top of it to make him

946
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 2: look alive. So yes, it looks like hell, that's what

947
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: it looks like.

948
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: One of the things that I love that really touches me.

949
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: And I don't know what photos you still have. Maybe

950
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 1: we should just run through some of them, and I'll

951
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: try to narrate what's going on. But one of the

952
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: things I love about this thing in Indonesia, in ton

953
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: of Trondia is when they will take out the mummies

954
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: of people who are severely deteriorated, severely and they will

955
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: continue and they will treat them as loving as if

956
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: they were the living person. And I think that is

957
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: really like, that is real love. To me, that is

958
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: real beauty, because to us when we look at them

959
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: this revulsion, you know, it's like, oh my god, she

960
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: really looks bad. It's like, hey, you know what, the

961
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: way you look is superficial. What they're celebrating is the

962
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: bond underneath. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if

963
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: they're not wearing makeup, and it doesn't matter that they

964
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: look desiccated. They love these people and they will continue

965
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: to love them, and they are not revolted by them.

966
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. And I mean all the the

967
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: thing is is that humans are so are just so

968
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 2: in tune to things that aren't that aren't real. And

969
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: when you when you have a person that's dead and

970
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 2: you put all that makeup and stuff, it's not tricking

971
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 2: anybody to think they look like they're sleeping. Like everyone's like,

972
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 2: that looks really bad.

973
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: I had a guy. Usually I try really hard to

974
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: keep the online dialogue around these photos clean, you know,

975
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: because I don't want people insulting someone else's cultural practice.

976
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: But some guy said it and I had to admit

977
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: it's true. Some guy commented on this photo when I

978
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: put on line, it's like she looks like c THEYPO.

979
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and it was chill. I was like, you

980
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 1: know what that one. I'll let that one stay. It's

981
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: really it's there's a beauty. It's like, good for her,

982
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: you know what she kind of does, and I think

983
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 1: it's beautiful.

984
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: Yes, it's very cool what's going on with with the

985
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 2: orbit there, and it's just like it it really is

986
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 2: this unique kind of form of mummification and atipacer that

987
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 2: it just has a very pacific look compared to other time,

988
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: Like if a person died and naturally mummified in in

989
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 2: you know, Oklahoma or something, it just would have a

990
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: different look. And it's just really cool.

991
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: Well, one thing about these that would really shock people.

992
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: I don't know again, if you have more photos or

993
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: more of the videos to show one thing that would

994
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: really shock people, and it took me a while to

995
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: get over. Is when they open the caskets, they're not

996
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: just when they clean them. They're not just brushing away

997
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: the dust. They're brushing away insect carcass. Yea, they're brushing

998
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: away bug carcasses because the bugs are eating these too,

999
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 1: and you'll see them constantly, like some of them are

1000
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: just loaded over. Their caskets are just full of insect cases.

1001
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: And that would really be a hard thing, I think

1002
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: for Americans to take to not just see their dead

1003
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: relative all desiccated, but to see the evidence that their

1004
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: dead relative had been had been eaten by bugs, was

1005
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 1: being eaten by these insects. But it doesn't bother them

1006
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: at all, again, because you know, that's all vanity, it's irrelevant.

1007
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: They understand what the natural process of death is and

1008
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: that's part of the process, and they love these people nonetheless.

1009
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 2: Well, thanks so all right, thank you so much for

1010
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 2: sharing this, because this is just this is just so cool,

1011
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 2: and I think the first time I ever saw you

1012
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 2: lecture about this, I was just mind blown. And I

1013
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 2: really hope that lots of people got to learn something

1014
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 2: today because it's so cool. But before we go, let's

1015
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: just talk about really quick, because we had a story

1016
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 2: in the news a couple of weeks ago where you

1017
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,959
Speaker 2: want to get into that. I did text him about it, but.

1018
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we had this story a few weeks ago

1019
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 3: that all these piles of ashes were found what was

1020
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 3: it right outside of Las Vegas, Like yeah, so of course, yeah.

1021
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: I know the story. People were in shocked because there

1022
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 1: was something like nineteen out in the desert. There was

1023
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 1: this piece of land with nineteen piles of cremation ashes

1024
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 1: found just sitting there, and it was like, oh my god,

1025
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: you know, the ashes of the dead are out in

1026
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: the desert, which in so you had texted that to

1027
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:14,879
Speaker 1: me and asked me about it. I was like, it's

1028
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: really not.

1029
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 2: That and then you said right away, you're like, this

1030
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: is every day for me.

1031
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: First of all, let's get over it. It's only ash.

1032
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 2: You know.

1033
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: It's not like they're dumping murder victims out there. It's

1034
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: not like they're dumping corpses out there there rotting. It's

1035
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: just ash. And and I told you, well, actually, I

1036
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: just found pile of cremation ashes somewhere else. Because this

1037
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: is actually really common. A lot of poor people who

1038
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with their dead relatives, and

1039
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: for some reason they might not want them or be

1040
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: able to have them, and that's they'll just take them

1041
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: out to the desert and spread them in the desert,

1042
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: or they'll put them somewhere in the desert. And I

1043
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: think I think that pile that they had found, I

1044
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: think people were kind of using that as a makeshift cemetery.

1045
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: If I drive out in the desert, I find all

1046
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: over the place, I'll find little makeshift pet cemeteries and

1047
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: so forth. People have picked some patch of land just

1048
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: turned it into pet cemetery ten or twenty burials. And

1049
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: so I mentioned to you, it's like, well, yeah, I

1050
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: just found another pile of ashes just the other day.

1051
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: It was over by one of the pet cemeteries. But

1052
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: it was definitely not a pet it was too big

1053
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: for that. And so someone had poured out someone's cremation

1054
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: ashes and put there's a beer bottle in there, and

1055
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: it looks like they took a piece of wood and

1056
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: a little little block and they were using it as

1057
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: kind of a makeshift altar. So I think they poured

1058
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: out the cremation ashes, had a drink with their buddy

1059
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 1: or their brother, or their dad or whoever it was,

1060
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: and made a little offering on that altar and left them.

1061
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 2: That's so cool. You got you really get to see.

1062
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 2: Just for being out there in the desert for the

1063
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: first time, really driving around like that last year, you

1064
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: just don't really realize that there's just it. It could

1065
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 2: be a potential dumping ground for so many things which

1066
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 2: you stumble across all the time while you're going out there.

1067
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: Well for the good and the bad, because a lot

1068
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: of people do have animals out there, and in fact,

1069
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: this is a story that I think is far more

1070
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: interesting than the ashes. There was a story about a

1071
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: veterinarian in Las Vegas who got caught on camera beating

1072
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: up a horse, and then the veterinarian disappeared and they

1073
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 1: found his body lying on the shore of like Meat.

1074
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 2: We covered that story, do you remember, Ray, Yeah?

1075
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: Oh we did, Yeah, we did. Actually, yeah, they found yeah,

1076
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: that was not far from here. They found his body

1077
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: by like me. The guy the veterinarian beat up the

1078
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: horse was found dead by like me, so they so

1079
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: they dumped him out there too.

1080
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's just it's just something that when you

1081
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: live in like the East Coast we just don't really

1082
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: have a lot of that because there's not space to

1083
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 2: do stuff like that. I just was really shocked driving

1084
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 2: through Texas and stuff of all of the abound abandoned

1085
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 2: houses and just cars and just it's just there and

1086
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 2: it just sits there. And that and of course all

1087
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 2: the photos that you take when you go out on

1088
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 2: your adventures all the time.

1089
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I live in That's why I live

1090
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: in the desert, because it's this treasure trove of ghost

1091
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: towns and abandoned stuff. I was gonna mention too that

1092
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: in my book about pet cemeteries they fallen to death,

1093
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: which we talked about last year. There is a large

1094
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 1: desert pet cemetery outside of Las Vegas in Boulder City.

1095
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: And the pet cemetery in Boulder City was founded in

1096
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: fifties in the densert, just a different place for berry on,

1097
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: a free spot for people to bury pets. And that

1098
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: has always in the early days, was always reputed to

1099
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 1: actually be a mafia dump site for bodies, that pet cemetery,

1100
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: that the mafia was taking it because the mob, you know,

1101
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: they ran Las Vegas, they probably sidh but uh, it

1102
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: was that had long been the rumor that some of

1103
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 1: those graves for dogs and so forth out in Boulder

1104
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: City were actually mafia hits, so they would just have

1105
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: someone take them out to the pet cemetery and carry

1106
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: them and put a dog.

1107
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 2: Wow, that's that's yeah. It's very interesting though, because that's

1108
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 2: that's probably true. I would love to see them like

1109
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 2: dig them up. I guess I don't know. Maybe they

1110
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 2: should just leave it. So are you Are you working

1111
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 2: on any other projects? Like? What do you what? What

1112
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 2: is Paul doing now?

1113
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: I'm doing something totally related. I spent all my time

1114
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: studying the history of nineteenth century railroad dogs.

1115
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 2: I know, no comment, Okay, just tell us I want

1116
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 2: to know, Yeah, we want to know.

1117
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, well okay, oh, everything's a lot. I

1118
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: just became obsessed with the story of these dogs because

1119
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: they've been largely forgotten. In the nineteen century, there were

1120
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: these dogs that would just honerless, dogs that would just

1121
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: jump on and off trains and travel all around the country,

1122
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: and a lot of it became a lot of them.

1123
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: Some of them became really big celebrities. They basically became heroes.

1124
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: They became like, you know, the Jack Kerouac on the road,

1125
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: for that generation, because a good person was you know,

1126
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 1: a good person didn't just run away from society. It

1127
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: was not an age where individualism was considered a virtue,

1128
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: and so, you know, a good person was an industrious person.

1129
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: And these dogs kind of lived out the fantasy of

1130
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: freedom for the newspaper crowd, you know, reading where these

1131
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 1: dogs were going and what they were doing, and of

1132
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: course then they were totally freeot. But the thing that

1133
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 1: really strikes me out the stories of these dogs. First

1134
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: of all, how we create heroes, how we abandon heroes,

1135
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: and then how we you know, because these dogs represented

1136
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: freedom for the newspaper reading crowd that would follow their adventures,

1137
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: and how every time we think we're advancing to freedom,

1138
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 1: you know, every time we think we're becoming more and

1139
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 1: more free, it actually turns out we're going in the

1140
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: opposite direction, you know. And maybe those dogs, maybe those

1141
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: dogs in the nineteenth century, maybe they had something for

1142
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: us that we can still learn from about what freedom

1143
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: really is.

1144
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: You're a genius, you really are. I love the way

1145
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 2: that you're I love the way that you're You're like

1146
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:25,479
Speaker 2: weird stories, but it's just it's just very it's very

1147
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 2: relevant right now and.

1148
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 1: But I think that is very relevant right now. That's

1149
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: why so addicted to the stories of these dogs. Yeah,

1150
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: because it's awesome. So the way I see it in

1151
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: terms of freedom, we keep going backwards, and maybe it

1152
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: was actually really simple all along. Maybe these dogs new

1153
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 1: you just turn around. If you want to be free,

1154
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: you don't like where you are, you turn around.

1155
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're so right. It's it's it's just like

1156
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 2: the most relevant topic, especially this week. And we talk

1157
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 2: about that in our private talks that just like everything

1158
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be improved, some things are just good.

1159
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 2: Just leave it alone, all right, awesome, Well, thanks so

1160
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 2: much for being here. I think that our listeners are

1161
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 2: just gonna freak out over this episode. They're gonna love it.

1162
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 2: Where can everyone let's just tell I mean we always talk.

1163
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 2: You don't even know this, but we talk about you

1164
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 2: on the show all the time, and we give out

1165
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 2: your Instagram, but just give out like where do you

1166
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 2: want people to find you?

1167
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 1: Some kind of docs myself? Yes, tough. I'm on Instagram

1168
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: under a Hexton called h e x e n kult h.

1169
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: I don't do TikTok, I don't do x.

1170
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: Keeping it simple, but Paul has lectures all over and

1171
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: sometimes you do virtual ones too, So if you guys

1172
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 2: are interested in hearing more about this, because obviously we

1173
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 2: could listen to you all day, like you just have

1174
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 2: such a great life and great life stories to tell.

1175
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 1: Well, I only have achu coming up. It's in northern California.

1176
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 1: I've cut back on a lot of that because I

1177
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: really need to get some work done.

1178
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 2: I guess that. Yeah, exactly, all right, Well, thanks so much.

1179
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: We love you, thank you, love.

1180
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 3: You to.

1181
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As a reminder,

1182
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist assistant. I have a

1183
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

1184
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

1185
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

1186
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

1187
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

1188
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:58,880
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

1189
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

1190
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day, and the opinions expressed

1191
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

1192
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,440
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

1193
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

1194
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 2: medical emergency. Please contact your physician or visit an urgent

1195
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

1196
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

1197
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks