Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two. It's your host, Jenny Garth. Okay,
Speaker 1: do you remember that show from a few years ago?
Speaker 1: It was called Younger. Hillary Duff was in it and
Speaker 1: I just love her. Sutton Foster was in it as well,
Speaker 1: and it's all about a divorced woman who put her
Speaker 1: career on hold to raise her child and be a wife,
Speaker 1: and then in her forties, she found herself divorced and
Speaker 1: having to enter back into the workforce, only no one
Speaker 1: would hire her because of her age. That story, I know,
Speaker 1: is so true to many people listening to this podcast.
Speaker 1: Working post divorce can be daunting, but it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be. My guest today is depoly Vias, an executive
Speaker 1: recruiter and career strategist known as the Elite Recruiter. She
Speaker 1: has spent more than twenty five years advising Fortune five
Speaker 1: hundred companies, hedge funds, private equity firms, and I cannot
Speaker 1: wait to talk to her. Hello de Polly, Hi, nice
Speaker 1: to meet you. Nice to meet you as well. How
Speaker 1: are you today?
Speaker 2: I'm good. I'm having a moment because it's just full
Speaker 2: circle and you know you're going to get this all
Speaker 2: the time, I'm sure. But Kelly Martin or Kelly and
Speaker 2: Donna Martin. I'm Kelly, and I just like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: my sister and I would like die for each episode
Speaker 2: when they came out. So it's really nice to meet you.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I've been a fan and.
Speaker 1: With all of your stuff beyond that, you well, I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to talk to you today because you used
Speaker 1: to have some very valuable information that we have got
Speaker 1: to get out there. Okay, so let's say I'm a
Speaker 1: divorce woman listening to this podcast right now. I've been
Speaker 1: married for the last eighteen years, and maybe I did
Speaker 1: a little part time work here and there, or I
Speaker 1: put my career on hold to focus on my kids.
Speaker 1: Now boom, I'm divorced, single and on a single income.
Speaker 1: Where do I start? First? Do I make a resume?
Speaker 1: Do I go on LinkedIn? What do I do?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I would say the first things that I
Speaker 2: would advise is sort of a what I call a
Speaker 2: five step reset. One. I would know your economics, right,
Speaker 2: what do you need to earn? And what are you worth?
Speaker 2: You mentioned that you know you're working part time or
Speaker 2: this person you know had experience, they took time off,
Speaker 2: So what are your economics? What do you need to earn?
Speaker 2: And what are you worth? The second thing is you're
Speaker 2: right audit your career assets, right, skills do you have?
Speaker 2: What accomplishments do you have and where do you need
Speaker 2: to put them on a resume? And LinkedIn right, so
Speaker 2: what is your digital footprint out there? Both of them?
Speaker 2: Then I would say the third thing is define your constraints,
Speaker 2: because you might have constraints on geography, flexibility, travel, benefits, schedule,
Speaker 2: all of those things are going to factor in if
Speaker 2: your divorce plus.
Speaker 1: Mom right right, right right?
Speaker 2: And then the fourth and fifth thing. Fourth is rebuild
Speaker 2: your narrative. Right, you don't have to tell the market
Speaker 2: what happened to you. You need to tell it exactly right.
Speaker 2: You need to tell it what you're capable of next, yes,
Speaker 2: right and fact. The fifth is creating optionality right, building
Speaker 2: relationships and potential income streams before you desperately need.
Speaker 1: Them, right, okay, getting ahead of it exactly optionality. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that leverage, That is leverage because then you it's not
Speaker 1: all your eggs aren't in one basket.
Speaker 2: Well like, look take you for example, right, you've actually
Speaker 2: lived something I talk about all the time. Your identity
Speaker 2: didn't stop at one version of your career or one
Speaker 2: chapter of your personal life. Right right? Actress, mother, author, entrepreneur, podcaster.
Speaker 2: You continued adding lanes, and that's what I mean about optionality.
Speaker 1: So get multi hyphen it.
Speaker 2: Multi hyphen it is that, especially because I think what
Speaker 2: women forget sometimes is that they have this experience and
Speaker 2: then they kind of just push it down, you know,
Speaker 2: when they.
Speaker 1: Go like downplay it or right, totally a big deal.
Speaker 1: I was, you know, just ran the whatever at the bank.
Speaker 1: But yeah, list all your accomplishments, like a.
Speaker 2: Bad ass before. I was a badass mom, and now
Speaker 2: I'm coming back.
Speaker 1: Get ready for me. I love that. Wait, what are
Speaker 1: your top three things that every woman should be prepared
Speaker 1: for when she is going into that drop interview?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say know your narrative and like really
Speaker 2: get in front of it. I think where people make
Speaker 2: a lot of mistakes are so you may have this
Speaker 2: anxiety about, oh my god, I have this huge gap
Speaker 2: on my resume, I've been out of the market, whatever.
Speaker 2: When you're in front of an interviewer, the last thing
Speaker 2: you want to do is have them address it before
Speaker 2: you can tell your story. Right. So, if I'm sitting
Speaker 2: in front of you. I'm like, oh, Kelly, you know
Speaker 2: you had a five year gap. Can you tell me
Speaker 2: about it? You know what Kelly's thinking. I keep saying, Kelly,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I don't know why
Speaker 2: I keep saying that. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: Okay, generic Kelly Kelly, So everybody Kelly named Kelly.
Speaker 2: Yes, they are thinking. They just asked me this question,
Speaker 2: and now I have to dig myself out of this
Speaker 2: hole and get to neutral just to feel like I'm
Speaker 2: on an even playing field. So what I tell my
Speaker 2: clients is get in front of that story. As soon
Speaker 2: as you sit down, and the first question is naturally
Speaker 2: going to be tell me about yourself. You address that
Speaker 2: before they even get there. He tell me, tell you
Speaker 2: I have been you know, uh, previously I was the
Speaker 2: VP of MX and Strategic Partnerships. I took some time
Speaker 2: to do family planning. But these are the skills that
Speaker 2: I've kept, you know, up to snuff with, and I've
Speaker 2: learned all about AI. And this is why this role
Speaker 2: is great for me at this time. Now, since you've
Speaker 2: already addressed the elephant in the room, like they can't say, well, wait,
Speaker 2: why did you take five years off? I already got
Speaker 2: ahead of it. I already told you I took time
Speaker 2: for family planning.
Speaker 3: Mm hmmmm hmmm.
Speaker 1: That's so smart. Okay, so that's like number one, right,
Speaker 1: what's the what's a couple of other ones?
Speaker 2: So the second thing I would say is have stories ready,
Speaker 2: Like what are your I'm going to call them the
Speaker 2: star stories, right, So what challenging situations have you been in?
Speaker 2: What tasks did you do, what action did you take,
Speaker 2: and what was the result. That's star and you should
Speaker 2: have three or four of those. And whether or not
Speaker 2: you've been in and out of the market, you can
Speaker 2: go back into your stories and say, this is how
Speaker 2: I dealt with conflict. Then I know times have changed,
Speaker 2: Here's how my you know, here's how I've matured over
Speaker 2: this amount of time, and this is how I would
Speaker 2: approach it now. Logical thinking. Right, So even if you
Speaker 2: have sort of quote unquote outdated experience, doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: you haven't been living life and interacting with people.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You could have been you know, heading up the PTA,
Speaker 2: or you could have been on a nonprofit or whatever
Speaker 2: you were doing in between that time, keeping yourself busy,
Speaker 2: and so you can interject those things. But you should
Speaker 2: have a bag of stories so you don't feel like
Speaker 2: you're reaching or you or someone just kind of stops
Speaker 2: you in your tracks and you have nothing to say.
Speaker 1: What if you? What if you? Or your story is
Speaker 1: that I have taken I have just taken time off
Speaker 1: to be a mom and raise my kids.
Speaker 2: And that's fine, and say, the lessons that I've learned
Speaker 2: as a mother has been, patients has been you know,
Speaker 2: so you you completely narrate what you've built with experience
Speaker 2: in whatever you were doing. So that's what I would.
Speaker 1: Say, yes, even as a mom, like, look at all
Speaker 1: the things if you sat and wrote them down and
Speaker 1: thought it through.
Speaker 2: You're you're like the CFO of the house. You are
Speaker 2: the chief Procurement Officer of the house. Right, you're the
Speaker 2: chief operations officer of the house. Like, those are.
Speaker 1: All little skills, they truly are.
Speaker 2: Right. You can multitask, right, you can delegate you like,
Speaker 2: you can operate, you know, in a in a high
Speaker 2: functioning way with multiple tasks, which, by the way, isn't
Speaker 2: that a job?
Speaker 1: Yeah? It is, right, hardest job ever.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the third thing I would say is that
Speaker 2: I would I would be really really in front of
Speaker 2: like your sort of brand like spoon feeding them what
Speaker 2: you want them to know about you, right, Like, this
Speaker 2: is what I'm really good at. Because the thing about interviewers,
Speaker 2: right this, this sort of state secret, is that that
Speaker 2: interviewer in front of you just wants to get some
Speaker 2: of those headlines and pass them over to the next interviewer.
Speaker 2: So as long as your story stays consistent, they kind
Speaker 2: of give them the highlight reel of your experience, so
Speaker 2: you move on to the next interview.
Speaker 1: M oh Keauz. They're a rounds.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, sometimes, oh there are rounds like, yeah, what
Speaker 4: do you say, what do you see as the biggest
Speaker 4: mistake women are making out there when they're searching for
Speaker 4: a job post divorce?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, a couple of things are
Speaker 2: especially when you're in this sort of like fragile moment
Speaker 2: of you've now gone through something so personal and you
Speaker 2: start bleeding your identity and your narrative between personal and professional.
Speaker 2: It really does come through. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: it is hard, and I don't you know, take it lightly.
Speaker 2: Where you're going through something emotional, it's obviously going to
Speaker 2: seep into like your energy and all of that. But
Speaker 2: if there's any like way. For that half an hour
Speaker 2: or forty five minutes that you can completely compartmentalize your
Speaker 2: personal from your professional, it will be a very good thing.
Speaker 2: And all you have to tell yourself is, like, listen,
Speaker 2: it's forty five minutes that I do not have to
Speaker 2: think about that, Right. And then it depends on like
Speaker 2: who you're in front of. Right, if you're in a
Speaker 2: creative profession, and if that is something that is kind
Speaker 2: of fueling you or driving you, you can certainly talk
Speaker 2: about it. But if you're going into a banking environment, right,
Speaker 2: or private equity or whatever it is, and you know
Speaker 2: they're buttoned up, you probably don't want to lead with
Speaker 2: that or have that seek through in your conversations.
Speaker 1: You don't want to give them like your mom stories.
Speaker 2: Only after they've fall in love with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta wait, so true?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: Okay? So I know looking for a job can be
Speaker 1: really overwhelming. I see how hard it is for my friends,
Speaker 1: and I even see how hard it is for my
Speaker 1: young adult daughters as a single mom. What things should
Speaker 1: you be mindful of when you're looking and what should
Speaker 1: be things that you should be a little more flexible
Speaker 1: on during your search?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think the biggest thing is sort
Speaker 2: of a mindset. I would say you have to think
Speaker 2: about it as if you are not starting over, you're
Speaker 2: starting with receipts. So whether you're forty five or fifty
Speaker 2: or fifty five, right, you have receipts. And that what
Speaker 2: I mean by that is you have judgment, you have
Speaker 2: pattern recognition, you have relationships, you have scar tissue, you
Speaker 2: know what you're good at, you know what you're terrible
Speaker 2: at too, by the way, yes, and so I think
Speaker 2: you you what you should start by is what environments
Speaker 2: bring out your best work? Right? And that and that
Speaker 2: means like what can I still do? And then it's
Speaker 2: also what do I want to do with everything that
Speaker 2: I know now? Right? And sometimes it could be you know,
Speaker 2: I actually tell this and and you know, yes this
Speaker 2: this is great for your audience in that segment, But
Speaker 2: if you actually think about the analogy of like what
Speaker 2: do you tell your kids? Right? I have a son
Speaker 2: and you know, look, coming from an Indian background, it's
Speaker 2: always about like math and science. My son is not
Speaker 2: a math and science guy, right, and so like for
Speaker 2: me to push that and his father to push that,
Speaker 2: it's like I don't I don't want him resenting us
Speaker 2: for it, right.
Speaker 1: Right, Right?
Speaker 2: And so I tell you know a lot of parents
Speaker 2: of kids like tell them to lean into their strengths.
Speaker 2: That same advice goes for women. What are your strengths? Like,
Speaker 2: don't force yourself into I'm going to take this project
Speaker 2: management job when you're not really till oriented.
Speaker 3: That's not for you.
Speaker 2: Then you know, like you need to go somewhere where
Speaker 2: there's more vision or there's more you know, unstructure or
Speaker 2: whatever it is, right Like, you get to think on
Speaker 2: your feet and you get to do all of these things,
Speaker 2: and it's a little bit more in that vein. So
Speaker 2: that's what I say about, you know, what can you
Speaker 2: do and what are you really good at? And lean
Speaker 2: into that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, because this is you're making a big
Speaker 1: decision as you move into this next huge phase of
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think it's also scarcity thinking, right, Like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: a lot of people are just kind of like, man,
Speaker 2: I just need someone to give me a chance, right,
Speaker 2: And that scarcity changes your behavior, right like you apply
Speaker 2: to everything, you accept less money, you overlook red flags,
Speaker 2: you don't negotiate, you tolerate bad managers, right like you
Speaker 2: take the first offer, right, And we've learned that in
Speaker 2: business and in real estate and all these things. Never
Speaker 2: take the first offer, right, Like you have to negotiate,
Speaker 2: and so like, don't sell yourself short just because you've
Speaker 2: had this life event and that you think that you
Speaker 2: don't have enough to offer.
Speaker 1: Don't sell yourself short. It take some time, right, sit
Speaker 1: down with yourself and a notepad and a pen, and
Speaker 1: like talk yourself up to yourself, like make a list
Speaker 1: of all of your accomplishments so far, Like yep, all
Speaker 1: the things that you've done. I mean, when you really
Speaker 1: do that and you go back and you look at
Speaker 1: that list, you'll probably be impressed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think that you know what, it's
Speaker 2: also give yourself permission to reinvent.
Speaker 3: Oh right, yes, right?
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, sometimes a marriage isn't the only identity
Speaker 2: someone has outgrown, right, Maybe it's you know, you became
Speaker 2: the flexible parent or the person who didn't travel or whatever.
Speaker 2: And you might say, like, you know, I don't actually
Speaker 2: have to keep making the same professional choices, right, Sometimes
Speaker 2: you maybe were just optimized seeing your career for things
Speaker 2: that don't exist anymore, Like and I know it's terrifying,
Speaker 2: but like, hey, you know, if if you know Walmart
Speaker 2: was founded by a forty four year old, why not you?
Speaker 1: Why not you? You know, there's so many inspirational stories
Speaker 1: like that, Like I think women should just seek those
Speaker 1: out too, like pump it up, pump us up, pump
Speaker 1: yourself and then just dream.
Speaker 2: I would also join, like, you know, professional communities because
Speaker 2: like women do love helping other women absolutely, you know,
Speaker 2: And like I'm having a I'm part of this change
Speaker 2: the Board Game initiative and we are bringing in women
Speaker 2: that are that want to be aspiring board members with
Speaker 2: current board members and it's like if you don't know
Speaker 2: what it's like, like you need to be in the room.
Speaker 1: You need to Yes, you need to be asking the
Speaker 1: questions and curious and having people around you that are
Speaker 1: smarter than you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is honestly, Jenny. That is like number one.
Speaker 2: If I if I gave any advice to your audience,
Speaker 2: I would say, Okay, you shed this thing with whatever
Speaker 2: was happening with your divorce, look around your neighborhood, your associations, whatever,
Speaker 2: and level it up because proximity brings opportunity.
Speaker 1: I love that proximity proximity brings opportunity. You guys, did
Speaker 1: you hear that little nugget? Okay, what about a resume?
Speaker 1: Which should people hire a resume writer? Is that even
Speaker 1: a good investment or should they just be using AI?
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna say, I'm going to give you that
Speaker 2: answer in two parts. Okay, I think AI is amazing.
Speaker 2: I use every AI tool on the planet. So your
Speaker 2: first draft thinking, you should definitely put into AI and say, hey,
Speaker 2: this is all my stuff, you know, put something together
Speaker 2: for me. Again, it's your first draft. It may not
Speaker 2: capture the essence there are. And then the second part
Speaker 2: of that is if you were just not used to,
Speaker 2: you know, putting together a docum that is going to
Speaker 2: pass the ATS or it's going to pass a recruiter
Speaker 2: or the hiring manager test, then investing in someone that
Speaker 2: can write your resume really well will serve you well.
Speaker 2: Because the modern resume right now, and look, I've read
Speaker 2: a million resumes right in my recruiter role. I know
Speaker 2: exactly how I read them. Up top. I read it
Speaker 2: like an f like up top and then down, and
Speaker 2: then I might go back up and read your first
Speaker 2: lines of experience. Right, That's how I read it and
Speaker 2: now if you didn't know that, you wouldn't know how
Speaker 2: to write it right, And a lot of people end
Speaker 2: up putting their whole life story on there. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of word salad. I'm trying to parse through the noise.
Speaker 2: And the one thing that I will say is that
Speaker 2: oftentimes you have to think about it like this. If
Speaker 2: you are not clear about your experience, right, you are
Speaker 2: now putting the burden on someone like me that is
Speaker 2: reading your resume and trying to figure you out. But
Speaker 2: guess what I have, Jenny, I have a day job, right,
Speaker 2: and so it takes time for me to figure you out.
Speaker 2: So if you don't have clarity and that document is
Speaker 2: not clear, then it you know, you stop short of
Speaker 2: what you really can.
Speaker 1: Be right, and too many words is just too many words?
Speaker 2: Sometimes word salad sandwich is like to resume?
Speaker 1: Do you think that is? Do you think AI is
Speaker 1: doing the first scan of most resumes that are submitted now?
Speaker 2: They it is, so a lot of companies use AI
Speaker 2: scanners to just pick up some of the keywords. So, yes,
Speaker 2: that is happening. It does reach a human. So I
Speaker 2: don't want to have a you know, misconception out there
Speaker 2: it does reach a human. I think some of the
Speaker 2: larger tech companies rely a little bit more on AI
Speaker 2: just because they're getting an insane amount of applicants. But
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, for the you know, look
Speaker 2: for the hidden jebs, look for the mid sized companies
Speaker 2: or the smaller companies that are going to take a
Speaker 2: look at you because they're going to need someone like
Speaker 2: you know. I'll give you a perfect example. There is
Speaker 2: a company here in Long Island and the guy was like,
Speaker 2: I actually just like hiring moms. And you know the
Speaker 2: reason for that is because they multitask, and they know
Speaker 2: that they have to drop their kids off in the
Speaker 2: morning and they have to go pick their kids back up,
Speaker 2: so that nine to two time slot is like optimal
Speaker 2: work zone for them, and they have to get it done.
Speaker 2: They don't have a choice. And he's like, that's why
Speaker 2: I hire them, right, And he's like, my entire workforce
Speaker 2: are moms and we get everything done. So my point
Speaker 2: is like, there are employers like that out there that
Speaker 2: actually prefer that skill set, like prefer that that type
Speaker 2: of person.
Speaker 1: You never know because you kind of think, oh, they're
Speaker 1: not going to want to hire me, or because I'm
Speaker 1: a mom, or because I'm this age, maybe that's exactly
Speaker 1: what they're looking for exactly.
Speaker 2: So but you have to ask, and you have to
Speaker 2: you know, honestly, Like I will say, you know, finding
Speaker 2: a job is a full time job. It takes a
Speaker 2: lot of work. It's going to be a lot of calls,
Speaker 2: going to be a lot of networking, it's going to
Speaker 2: be a lot of you know, resume sends, and it's
Speaker 2: a volume game and you and the one thing is
Speaker 2: you can't take it personally. And the reason why I
Speaker 2: say that is because after this type of event, you
Speaker 2: have fragility in your ego, you have fragility in your
Speaker 2: emotions and all of that. So I am really conscious
Speaker 2: of that. And the last thing you want is another rejection,
Speaker 2: right yeah, And so I will say that treat your
Speaker 2: job like a business and that it's just a numbers game.
Speaker 2: And then until you find the right sort of you know,
Speaker 2: chemistry and and you know job that's right for you
Speaker 2: and the culture that fits you, you can then kind
Speaker 2: of invest your whole heart in it. But like, don't
Speaker 2: worry about the rejections.
Speaker 1: Honestly, m yeah, you know, those just aren't meant to
Speaker 1: be yeah, and you're absolutely better off for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like every time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a sign I'm.
Speaker 1: Don't believe that this is okay. Do you think that
Speaker 1: women out there re entering the workforce are experiencing agism?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, I talk about this all the time in
Speaker 2: my content, and I think that you know, it's there's
Speaker 2: something about I'll say this agism is real, and I
Speaker 2: don't want to give women like a motivational answer that
Speaker 2: pretends that it doesn't exist. And I've been in recruiting
Speaker 2: for twenty five years. You don't combat agism by trying
Speaker 2: to convince somebody you're younger, right, You combat it by
Speaker 2: making your experience incredibly relevant. So every time you experience this,
Speaker 2: I always tell people, whatever you're thinking, flip it on
Speaker 2: its head. Right. If you're thinking I'm not young enough
Speaker 2: or I'm not this enough, right, you need to flip
Speaker 2: the narrative of like, I have this amount of experience
Speaker 2: that I can do this job in half the time.
Speaker 2: When if you hire a younger person, and that's the
Speaker 2: other thing women, when you're out there interviewing and you're
Speaker 2: interviewing for a full time job, you know, and if
Speaker 2: they start if you start feeling this red flag on
Speaker 2: agism or like you know, don't you know? I would
Speaker 2: say slip it in there and give that potential hiring
Speaker 2: manager optionality, like, Hey, what do you need to have
Speaker 2: done in the next three months? What is your biggest challenge?
Speaker 2: I could do that on a consulting basis for you.
Speaker 2: How does that sound. Here's my retainer? Right?
Speaker 3: Why are you.
Speaker 2: Constrained just because you hire? You were interviewing for a
Speaker 2: full time role and they start thinking, I don't know
Speaker 2: if I can afford her, she's too experienced. Right, but
Speaker 2: you know you can do that job, and you can
Speaker 2: do it in three months. Give them a consult and
Speaker 2: they can more than likely get that consulting gig approved
Speaker 2: faster than they can give you a full time offer.
Speaker 1: Interesting, that is a you know what? That felt like
Speaker 1: a shark tank hack moment.
Speaker 2: That is my super hack. That is my super hack,
Speaker 2: and it happens all the time.
Speaker 1: You are a shark tank of hiring. Wow. Okay, I
Speaker 1: hope people really understood that because that's a good one
Speaker 1: because you can feel in the in the I almost
Speaker 1: said audition, you can feel in the interview what's the undercurrent?
Speaker 2: Well, and then and they'll say things like, wow, you
Speaker 2: have a lot of experience. What that's agism, right, that's
Speaker 2: ages undercover agism, so and so. And it might be
Speaker 2: unconscious to it. It might just be an unconscious bias as
Speaker 2: soon as they see you or they read that resume.
Speaker 2: And that's when I tell people that, like, listen, you
Speaker 2: got to turn it around. You got to say, listen,
Speaker 2: what about my experience can lend itself really well in
Speaker 2: the next six to eight weeks of something that you
Speaker 2: need to complete, I can do that for you. And
Speaker 2: here's what I would charge.
Speaker 1: That is good. Know what you're gonna charge too?
Speaker 2: Definitely, no way you're going to charge because.
Speaker 1: That's hard being on the spot like that, like coming
Speaker 1: up with a number.
Speaker 2: But remember when I talked about, like, know you're earning
Speaker 2: potential noise your worth, right, so like you can reverse
Speaker 2: engineer talk to AI. Hey, AI, I used to make
Speaker 2: you know, two hundred thousand dollars full time. This is
Speaker 2: the amount of experience that I've had, This is the
Speaker 2: break that I've had. Give me five comparisons of this
Speaker 2: type of role in the market between mid size and
Speaker 2: large sized companies. All right, So then it'll spit something
Speaker 2: back to you and say, yeah, you're probably in the
Speaker 2: two to two fifty range. All right, So let me
Speaker 2: break that down into if I were to be a
Speaker 2: consultant for three months, what would be my monthly retainer
Speaker 2: wealthy poly, it would be ten thousand dollars a month.
Speaker 2: That's what I would propose.
Speaker 1: That's how you use AI too people right to even
Speaker 1: getting a job.
Speaker 2: It's like exactly sir, for you, and now you have
Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars in your pocket while you keep looking.
Speaker 1: Well, you keep looking smart. You're smart cooking. Okay, are
Speaker 1: there things that you should leave off your resume until
Speaker 1: you land that interview, like your college graduation year, so
Speaker 1: you're not you know, compared, So.
Speaker 2: Another sort of one of my hacks. Right, So, look,
Speaker 2: I've been in industry for now twenty six years, right, almost
Speaker 2: twenty seven. My resume is probably a page and a half.
Speaker 2: I do not have graduation years on my resume, not
Speaker 2: need it. You know what I'm good at, and this
Speaker 2: is what I know. And I would say after the
Speaker 2: first or after your last sort of ten years, everything
Speaker 2: else should be kind of folded into like smaller points.
Speaker 2: And I will say this to you right now. No one,
Speaker 2: I don't care how much experience you have needs more
Speaker 2: than a two page resume period full stop.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody's going to read it if it's longer than
Speaker 1: two pages, right, Like recruiters read resumes for about six
Speaker 1: seconds oof literally in an f formation. That's like, you've
Speaker 1: got to get it in the top.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to know your summary, and that summary, Jenny,
Speaker 2: is like the killer thing. I want to know what
Speaker 2: you do, how you do it, and what were your
Speaker 2: accomplishments in the first couple of lines. That is what's
Speaker 2: going to travel to the next person. Yes, then I'm
Speaker 2: going to see, all right, well, how many jobs have
Speaker 2: they kind of had, like what's their kind of experience set?
Speaker 2: And then I'm going to look at that last job,
Speaker 2: like your most recent job, right, I'm going to look
Speaker 2: at that and I'm going to say, hmm, all right,
Speaker 2: there's some metrics there. This is what they impacted. Here
Speaker 2: are some numbers. They increased revenue by twenty percent, or
Speaker 2: they saved us, you know, some costs by thirty percent.
Speaker 2: I'm looking for numbers, and if you don't have numbers
Speaker 2: on your resume, you're doing it wrong. And I would
Speaker 2: say that. Look, why do companies hire anybody at all?
Speaker 2: What are they? What's the what's the goal of the.
Speaker 1: Company to fulfill a job, to get something done?
Speaker 2: To get something done? But why are they in business?
Speaker 1: To make money?
Speaker 2: Boom every company. I don't care how mission driven they
Speaker 2: are or whatever. They want to make money. So whatever
Speaker 2: is on your resume, you need to follow the dollar right,
Speaker 2: Have I helped the company save money? What are those numbers?
Speaker 2: Or have I helped the company make money? Put those
Speaker 2: dollars in. That's it. That's the resume.
Speaker 1: And what if you don't know, Like if you're coming
Speaker 1: off of a job and you're like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: how did I raise money for them? Or did I
Speaker 1: did I move the needle?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: You know? And I'll tell you how you know? And
Speaker 2: this is a this is my other I have a
Speaker 2: lot of hacks.
Speaker 1: You got a lot of hacks.
Speaker 2: So my other filter that I use is what I
Speaker 2: call the so what filter? Three times? Okay, okay. So
Speaker 2: what I mean by that is when you look at
Speaker 2: your bullet point and you're like, okay, I created reports
Speaker 2: for the finance function, so what Well my reports informed
Speaker 2: them on what decisions to make from a cost cutting perspective.
Speaker 2: So what well, those decisions led to forty percent cost savings.
Speaker 2: So what well, forty percent cost savings increased our you know,
Speaker 2: spend for next year's budget. That, right, there is the
Speaker 2: impact you had by your little report. Right. That's how
Speaker 2: you follow the.
Speaker 1: Doll, You find it, sniff it out, That's how you
Speaker 1: get there. The whole divorce process, I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: you've ever been divorced, but the whole process can really
Speaker 1: break down our confidence sometimes. Yeah, how do women regain
Speaker 1: that when getting back into the workforce or even when
Speaker 1: they're you know, on a job and they're advocating for
Speaker 1: themselves or maybe they're trying to get a promotion or
Speaker 1: raise at work. How do they get that confidence back?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, look, I think that first I would
Speaker 2: separate confidence and competence. Good idea, because divorce can absolutely
Speaker 2: shake your confidence. I realize that it doesn't erase your confidence.
Speaker 2: I remember when I was talking about compartmentalizing, That's what
Speaker 2: I was talking about, And I think that, you know,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. You know, it's there's not enough platitudes in
Speaker 2: the world to say believe in yourself. There's you know,
Speaker 2: if you're gonna always get that. I think kind of
Speaker 2: going back and doing a really reflective audit on what
Speaker 2: have you accomplished, what have you survived? What are you
Speaker 2: exceptionally good at? Right, and like all of these things
Speaker 2: should rebuild your confidence in a way of like, man,
Speaker 2: if I look back, these are things that I did
Speaker 2: and you said that, right, Like just to really kind
Speaker 2: of sit down. Remember you know, when you're younger, everyone
Speaker 2: always used to say, before you make a decision, like
Speaker 2: do a pro and calm list, right, Like it was
Speaker 2: always like that, And so it's it's a little bit
Speaker 2: of that, right and you and again you stop letting
Speaker 2: that one relationship become the referendum of your work. So
Speaker 2: I would say, even like these small wins, I would
Speaker 2: I would literally have sort of a page on my refrigerator,
Speaker 2: and any small win I would just start, you know,
Speaker 2: writing it down. It starts rebuilding your confidence because you're
Speaker 2: now kind of seeing it on the page of like,
Speaker 2: should I mind it a lot?
Speaker 1: Yeah? You know, Oh I love this. I can't wait
Speaker 1: for women to do these things and get proactive. We
Speaker 1: got to talk about something very important, which is okay,
Speaker 1: getting the pay we deserve, negotiating salary during the hiring
Speaker 1: process is not easy. It's not easy for anyone. It's
Speaker 1: I am not a good negotiator. What advice would you
Speaker 1: give to a woman on how to effectively negotiate for
Speaker 1: the pay rate she deserves?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is probably my number one question of
Speaker 2: all time. First of all, you don't have to be
Speaker 2: a great negotiator. You just have to be really prepared, okay.
Speaker 2: And so what I mean by that is you need
Speaker 2: three numbers. You need to know what the market pays
Speaker 2: right for that role that you're going for. So go
Speaker 2: to flap store, go to levels Dot fy I, do
Speaker 2: all of that research. What is the number you want
Speaker 2: right and the number below you are prepared to walk away? Okay?
Speaker 2: So those are the three numbers in your head floating
Speaker 2: around when you are in front of that you know,
Speaker 2: recruiter or hiring manager or whatever. The biggest mistake you
Speaker 2: can is negotiating against yourself. So I always say the
Speaker 2: first person that to throw out a number loses. Okay.
Speaker 2: So what you want to do is like, you have
Speaker 2: those three numbers in your head and you're like, you
Speaker 2: need to ask them, well, what is the range for
Speaker 2: someone of my skill level? And experience that you That is,
Speaker 2: you know that this role will allow to operate for
Speaker 2: me to operate at the top of my license, right,
Speaker 2: And so when you say that, you're now saying like, hey, look,
Speaker 2: I know I can operate at this level. You tell
Speaker 2: me what I'm worth, and then as soon as they
Speaker 2: give you that number, you can then say, well, actually, X,
Speaker 2: Y and Z firms at this pay pay level is
Speaker 2: at this level. So you now come with data in
Speaker 2: facts versus emotion. The second thing I would say is
Speaker 2: that you know I hate the open ended questions like
Speaker 2: what are you looking to make? Right? You need to
Speaker 2: counter that again, not with numbers, but like, I'd love
Speaker 2: to understand the scope of the position, the overall compensation structure.
Speaker 2: When you say overall compensation structure, you now have inserted
Speaker 2: into their heads. There's more than just base salary. I
Speaker 2: want to know about bonus. I want to know about RSUs.
Speaker 2: I want to know all about signons. I want to
Speaker 2: know about relocation assistance. I want to know about equity.
Speaker 2: I want to know about all of it. Right, I
Speaker 2: want to know how much flexibility I have that will
Speaker 2: determine whether or not I will accept a lower base salary,
Speaker 2: but a higher bonus if I could work remotely, right, Like,
Speaker 2: so you're playing with all of these numbers, right, And
Speaker 2: so I think women sometimes negotiate and then negotiate against
Speaker 2: themselves because they are really uncomfortable in that silence, right,
Speaker 2: Like they just want to be like let me just
Speaker 2: let me just get it done, you know, versus like
Speaker 2: it's okay to go back. They expect you to go back,
Speaker 2: and if you don't go back, they're kind of like, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, we kind of pulled one over her.
Speaker 1: So they expect you to negotiate.
Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's good to know.
Speaker 2: There's definitely gonna be some some recruiters that are hard
Speaker 2: asses of like this is all we can do, right,
Speaker 2: lead and he loves you, Right, if the company has
Speaker 2: fallen in love with you and you are the lead candidate,
Speaker 2: you have a lot of sway and you can go
Speaker 2: back and say, well what do you think about a
Speaker 2: sign on? Well what do you and all the things
Speaker 2: that like those guys put you in a box for
Speaker 2: of like base and bonus, like there's all these other
Speaker 2: things that they can play with.
Speaker 1: That is very good to remember because it gets it
Speaker 1: can get emotional and then you just you lose your cool,
Speaker 1: like you lose.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. Plan it does get emotional because
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you start tying your personal worth to
Speaker 2: your professional worth. And then it's like you almost make
Speaker 2: it adversarial, right, and negotiating, And that's the thing. There's
Speaker 2: like almost like a negative connotation to negotiating. It's like,
Speaker 2: negotiating isn't fighting, right, You're not trying to beat the company, right,
Speaker 2: You're trying to structure an agreement where both sides feel
Speaker 2: good about saying yes.
Speaker 1: I like that. That's a better way to look at it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: much more positive.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, we've talked about rebuilding your career or reigniting your
Speaker 1: career post divorce, and yes, it can all be a
Speaker 1: little bit scary, but there's also a lot of beautiful
Speaker 1: things that can come out of it. Yeah, what are
Speaker 1: some of the positive things that you've seen come with careers?
Speaker 1: In chapter two?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, I've actually, you know, had at
Speaker 2: our age, we do know quite a few people that
Speaker 2: are in that situation, and we've had some very close
Speaker 2: friends go through divorce. And I think one of the
Speaker 2: sort of beautiful things that I think about if it
Speaker 2: because I'm you know, eternally optimistic, right, is that the
Speaker 2: second chapter for women is, you know, I to stop
Speaker 2: building a career around who they were supposed to be
Speaker 2: and start building one around who they actually are. And
Speaker 2: I think that you know, women that come out of
Speaker 2: this with clarity and agency, by the way, like agency, right,
Speaker 2: Like probably in that relationship, there was probably a lot
Speaker 2: of moments where they felt like they couldn't make their
Speaker 2: own decisions, right, So you look at the positive of this, right,
Speaker 2: like you're gonna have agency to make your own decisions
Speaker 2: and support you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, this isn't your said that is like
Speaker 1: the but I love that word so much agency because
Speaker 1: we lose it, we lose sight of it, we let
Speaker 1: it slip slip away. Yeah, and this is an opportunity
Speaker 1: you guys absolutely reclaim it and you.
Speaker 2: Get to set new boundaries, right and big.
Speaker 1: Ones whatever you want.
Speaker 2: Right, Once you survived your life blowing up a bit right, right,
Speaker 2: like saying no to a bad meeting or negotiating salary,
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel as terrifying, like you have to look
Speaker 2: at it that way, right, And so I think you
Speaker 2: discover that you can rebuild and I feel like that's
Speaker 2: sort of the the positives out of this. I mean,
Speaker 2: I knew a woman, a good friend of mine, who
Speaker 2: really kind of didn't find herself in the marriage. Like
Speaker 2: she was just kind of going through job after job
Speaker 2: and she wasn't like he was making good money and so,
Speaker 2: but you know, their chemistry had fallen apart or whatever,
Speaker 2: and so when they ultimately did get divorced, you know,
Speaker 2: it took her. You know, she was one of those
Speaker 2: people She's like depa I couldn't even move the cup
Speaker 2: from here to hear. I was just kind of depressed
Speaker 2: and lost. And then when she finally came out of it,
Speaker 2: you know, this woman like went on this sort of
Speaker 2: I'm going to meet everyone and network everywhere and whatever.
Speaker 2: And now she has like she started building these like
Speaker 2: you know, wellness clinics and things like that because she
Speaker 2: networked with some of these doctors that she knew and whatever.
Speaker 2: It was complete departure from like those odds and ends
Speaker 2: jobs that she had during her marriage. So it's like
Speaker 2: it's honestly, and I don't say this with like the motive,
Speaker 2: you know, the sappy motivational quotes, but like literally it's limitless.
Speaker 2: It's literally limitless for you when you're kind of broken
Speaker 2: free from.
Speaker 1: Those school Yes, Oh my gosh, such important messaging. I've
Speaker 1: talked about that before too, Like, don't look at it
Speaker 1: as I'm aging or I'm aging out of things, or
Speaker 1: I you know, think of it as I'm becoming whatever
Speaker 1: the f I want to become. Yeah, because the only
Speaker 1: person that is holding you back is you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I talk about that all the time. Like,
Speaker 2: you know, I talk about sort of like a what's
Speaker 2: the difference between a B plus life and an A life? Right?
Speaker 2: B plus is good enough?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Intent I like a B plus right.
Speaker 2: B plus is fine? But if you have the opportunity
Speaker 2: for a how would you do it differently? Right? I
Speaker 2: mean like, look, I'm going to be forty eight this week,
Speaker 2: my birthdays in two, thank you. I have never and
Speaker 2: again I don't have you know, I'm married and all
Speaker 2: of that, so I don't have, you know, the situation
Speaker 2: that others do. But in the last eighteen months, I've
Speaker 2: completely reinvented myself, even though I had something like normal. Right,
Speaker 2: So I have my day job of being an executive
Speaker 2: search consultant and running a global practice and all of that,
Speaker 2: and then I started doing all the social media stuff
Speaker 2: and now I have a media company and I have
Speaker 2: ten employees and like I'm running around town and I'm
Speaker 2: writing a book and all the like. I've never done
Speaker 2: more at the age of forty eight, which is why
Speaker 2: I say, like, combating agism is not a thing, right, Like,
Speaker 2: you can do so much, you just don't know what
Speaker 2: you're capable of until you try.
Speaker 1: You can laughing for that one. Oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1: You are so wonderful. If people want to work with you, Depoly,
Speaker 1: how do they do that? What do they need to do?
Speaker 2: So I'm known as the Elite Recruiter online on Instagram
Speaker 2: and TikTok and then depolyviias dot com and we do
Speaker 2: help people rewrite their resumes and get career coaching and
Speaker 2: all of that stuff. And I have a fabulous team
Speaker 2: handpicked industry experts. We do not I pick top level
Speaker 2: people that have been in hiring decisions in order to
Speaker 2: help people in a very real way because I don't
Speaker 2: believe in like theory.
Speaker 1: Gorgeous. Thank you guys, look her.
Speaker 2: Up, Jenny, Thank you so much, and thank you for
Speaker 2: letting me have my little fangirl moment.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, no problem. I was happy that it was.
Speaker 1: I was here for it. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being on this pod. Everybody's going to love it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Nice to meet you.
Speaker 2: Nice to meet you too.
Speaker 1: Are you newly divorced and getting your career back on track?
Speaker 1: Are you having huge success with your career in chapter
Speaker 1: two and you want to share your experience, Send us
Speaker 1: an email or leave us a voicemail. All the info
Speaker 1: is in the show notes. Follow us on Socials I
Speaker 1: Do Part two, an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love
Speaker 1: is the main objective.