1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Fry and 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy B. 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: Wilson. 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: So there was a thing this week. We talked about 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: the Beecham Sharp Tragedy, sometimes also called the Kentucky Tragedy, 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: and there was a thing I thought about including in it, 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: but I did not, okay, And the reason why is 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: that it's long. Okay, hold on, I'm counting one, two, three, four, five, six, 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: seven eight. I don't even know it's there. At the 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: end of their lives and wrote a poem about their 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: whole experience, with the intent that it would be engraved 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: on their tombstone, which sounds lovely at least, you know, 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: in ter of like from a sentimental point of view. 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: But this poem is long. It's not it's not like 16 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: a short little thing. It's like thirty or forty lines long. 17 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: It's really really long. And I just and it did 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: end up on their tombstone, and I just think of 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: the poor person that had to engrave all of that, 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: because it is not a brief piece of writing by 21 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: any means. It would be like going, you know, I 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: would like two of Shakespeare's sonnets engraved on my tombstone. 23 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: Like today, that would probably be quicker work. We have 24 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: machines to do it, mm hmm. Not in eighteen twenty six, 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: and it basically is a very romanticized version, of course 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 1: of their story. I also didn't note that a lot 27 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: of people, I mean, I think it's it's pretty commonly 28 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: believed that Anne really co authored that final document with 29 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: her husband, that she had a lot of say in it. 30 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: It was not written in his handwriting. Okay though that 31 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: Initially when I read that, I was like, are they 32 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: suggesting that this was a fake document? No, most people 33 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: are actually indicating that Anne probably wrote it all down 34 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: and was a collaborator on it. Whether that's just because 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: he had poor penmanship or she was kind of driving 36 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: the bus in terms of like how that document was 37 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: written and what it contained is a matter of some speculation, 38 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: But the two of them really wrote it together, right. 39 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: This is such a mess of people lately, We've had 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: a lot of discussions of people accusing each other of 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: things that cannot be verified. Yeah, the whole thing about 42 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: her child is so messy, so messy, and the only 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: person who we can say knows for sure or knew 44 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: for sure who the father was was her, and she 45 00:02:53,919 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: never she never stated it was anyone other than but 46 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: there are even some questions about whether she ever actually 47 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: stated it was sharp. So it all stays a mystery. 48 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: It's a little unsatisfying. Yeah, It's also an interesting thing 49 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: in that obviously this was written or this whole thing 50 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: took place in the eighteen twenties, so some decades before 51 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: the Civil War, and reading some of the accounts, even 52 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: though I know this was the case, it's still a 53 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: little startling how casually people will just talk about the 54 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: enslaved people that they own and how that makes them important. 55 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: It's like, we know that that was going on, But 56 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: then when I read contemporary accounts, it always feels like 57 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: a punch in the gut, like, oh, nobody was Like 58 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: I mean people were, but nobody in this you know 59 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: who was writing this down and being yes, he was 60 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: very wealthy, he had X number of enslaved people, although 61 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: they of course don't word it quite that way. Those 62 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: people never go own owning people. That seems that seems 63 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: weird and wrong, Like I just I don't know, I know, 64 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: that's my hippie dippy talking I just want everybody to 65 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,679 Speaker 1: have a moral compass. I don't know why that's so hard. 66 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: It's also an interesting thing in terms of how completely 67 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: gripped and entire community can be by the events and 68 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: behaviors in the lives of a very few people, right 69 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: because there was all of this infighting among legislators while 70 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: farmers were seriously like are we going to survive? And 71 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: some of those legislators really did seem more interested in 72 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: just winning over one another than the actual constituents that 73 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: they represented. We've never seen that before. But when you 74 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: think about there are a bunch of people literally sitting there, 75 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: going is my farm going to be foreclosed? Am I 76 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: going to lose everything? While all of these men bicker, 77 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: it's very frustrating. And then it becomes really really easy 78 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: to see how there could have been political machinations involved 79 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: in the murder that played out Like Beecham obviously, you know, 80 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: towards the end was like, yes, I did it, but uh, 81 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: and I wanted to do it, but also I don't 82 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: know if I would have done it. I waited four years, 83 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: but then this guy kept telling me I should do it, 84 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: kept pointing out that my wife's reputation had been ruined. 85 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: He was right. I did want to kill him after that. Like, 86 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: it's a very interesting example of how levers can be 87 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: pulled by people with intents that are dishonorable to manipulate 88 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: the passions of other people to do things that are 89 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:03,239 Speaker 1: not necessarily on their backs but that will benefit them directly. Yeah. 90 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like, one of the things that really struck 91 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: me was how much leading up to him, like authoring 92 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: or co authoring a confession, how much of it was 93 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: based on absolutely circumstantial. 94 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: The closest thing to. 95 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: Like actual evidence being his wife's saying, like I recognize 96 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: that voice, mm hmm, which I don't know maybe, but 97 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: everything else absolutely circumstantial. 98 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody that gave testimony just about someone else came 99 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: along and said, that's not true. He never had that conversation. 100 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what they're talking about. That didn't happen. 101 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: That's not what really took place. It's such a mess, 102 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: I don't know. It also is a good, not a 103 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: good example, but a clear example of the way that 104 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: public opinion gets put in place, because again, right up 105 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: until the sentencing, Beecham was very adamant that he didn't 106 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: do it, and with no evidence. It took that jury 107 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: less than an hour to go yep, guilty. It's like, 108 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: did you just go off vibes Like, That's not how 109 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: that's supposed to work. It's just a fascinator in a 110 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: sad way. I don't have a funny story to add 111 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: to this one. This weekly it was really heavy. I 112 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: try to make sure there's some ding dong story I 113 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: could tell about my own ridiculousness. I'll at least take 114 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: the edge off. And there I've certainly, I'm sure done 115 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: plenty of ding dong things in the last several days, even, 116 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: but I don't have one ready to roll. I don't 117 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: think i'd ever heard of this before. Yeah, I mean 118 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: I it's one that I stumbled across. It's another one 119 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: of those great I was looking at a paper and 120 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: I saw a headline on another part of the paper, 121 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: and I was like, what's that about? And it was like, oh, 122 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: this was one of the great things. Just kind of 123 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: makes it light. You surely saw the corpse bride, right, Yeah, 124 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: you know where there's that moment. It's in a song 125 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: where one of the characters is talking about all of 126 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: the things that have been playing out again, revealing some 127 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: some things that the characters in the movie have done, 128 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: and they go and a murder most Fowl. I found 129 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: that exact line as a headline talking about this case 130 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: murder exclamation poem most foul, and I always thought that 131 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: was very fun and cute and probably based on some 132 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: you know, that is, I think, right, I think one 133 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 1: of the Shakespeare tragedies. I'm pretty sure, yes, But I 134 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: was surprised to find it as a headline in the 135 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: Kentucky newspaper, Murder most Fowl, and it at least gave 136 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: me a moment of corpse bride fund in the midst 137 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: of a lot of yucky he said, he said, she 138 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: maybe said, but we don't know stuff. Yeah. I feel 139 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: like the fact that Anne Cook moved out to the 140 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: country to be alone with her mother, out of society 141 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 1: was probably a good indicator that she didn't want to 142 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: talk about any of that right now. Whether or not 143 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: that was an issue of feeling ashamed or I don't know, 144 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: maybe she just didn't want to get in the mess. Anyway, 145 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: It's a lot of sad and so much hangs on 146 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: the testimony of the neighbor, some of which seems to 147 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: be almost contradictory of itself. It's unclear anyway, a murder, 148 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: most foul. Let's go watch stop motion animation for fun 149 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: after such sad stories. 150 00:09:50,640 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about Wilfred Owen this week. 151 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: We sure did. 152 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: I have kept circling back to Wilfred Owen repeatedly. Deltiet 153 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: decoram Est is a poem that we've read, I think 154 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: in high school, maybe also in college, in like a 155 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: different context and a more humanity's context in college and 156 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: in literature class in high school. And I did not 157 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: know anything about his life or biography when reading the poem. 158 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 2: The poem was really about like World War One and 159 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 2: the horrors of trench warfare and the use of gas 160 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: and things like that. It was not about Wilfrid Owen 161 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: as a person, and so I did not realize that 162 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: he had been a soldier and that he had been 163 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: killed at the age of only twenty five, so close 164 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: to the end of the war. And when I learned that, 165 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: I kept just circling back to I'm kind of wanting 166 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 2: to do an episode about it, And as I said 167 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 2: in the episode, I just kept kind of wanting to 168 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: hug him. I am sad that he had such a 169 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 2: short life because of war. I got the impression that 170 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: you had some similar responses as we were wrapping up 171 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: the episode I did and his work, I never really 172 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 2: studied him, so looking at this after you had sent 173 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: it over to me, there's such a very obvious through 174 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: line from his work too. Another recent topic, who is 175 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: near to my heart Kurt Vonneguet in the way he 176 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 2: talks about war. Yeah, I'm like, I guarantee he read 177 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: his work. I guarantee it. I had not thought about that, 178 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: but that makes absolute sense. 179 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very not romanticized when he talks about it 180 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: in any kind of way, even in his off hand 181 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: to sides, it's usually all about how stupid the whole 182 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: thing is and pointless, and that is the. 183 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: Undertone of a number of Wilfrid Owen's poems as well. 184 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: Regarding the height requirement to join the British Army, so 185 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 2: as we said, he was a little more than five 186 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: to five, just like a smidge over five to five, 187 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: and the height requirement at the very beginning of the 188 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 2: war had been less than that, and then they had 189 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 2: such a surge of people trying to enlist that they 190 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 2: raised it to just have a way to quickly weed 191 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: people out, but then kept having to progressively lower it simultaneously. 192 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 2: There were people underneath what had been the original the 193 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: original limit, which I think was five foot three, and 194 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: there were men under five foot three who wanted to enlist, 195 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: and a lot of them actually who wanted to enlist, 196 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: And so special battalions were formed, called Bantam battalions, named 197 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 2: for they think rooster, right, bantam roosters. And a lot 198 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: of the people who joined these bantom battalions were like 199 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: doc workers, mine workers, people who were shorter than average, 200 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 2: but also like really stocky and really strong. And I 201 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: kind of went on a slight detour learning about bantam 202 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: battalions and then was like, Tracy, you gotta get your 203 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: mind back on your work. So I don't know if 204 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: if that might be a topic for some kind of 205 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: future episode, or it might be incorporated in a future episode. 206 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: In some way, I got the impression that like, these 207 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: were generally men who were very used to doing very 208 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: hard work, and simultaneously the other battalions of men who 209 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: were taller than that could be kind kind of patronizing 210 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: toward them. Yeah, And so it seems like there was 211 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of social expectation and ideas 212 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 2: about masculinity kind of interwoven with all of this. 213 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: Well, this also makes sense because you know, bantams are 214 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: a smaller fowl. Yeah, and they're not just roosters, like, 215 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: there are many fowl that could be characterized as bantam, Like, 216 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: there are ducks that would be called bantam, as well 217 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: as chickens. 218 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: I think I've most often heard it with rooster. Yeah, 219 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: but they are little and sturdy. 220 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 221 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I also have some thoughts about Harold Owen, Yeah, 222 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: who I have not researched at all. I know zero 223 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: about his life. But he went to such links to 224 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: just black out parts of his brother's letters and in 225 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: some cases cut out parts of them with scissors, without 226 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: knowing that a person who is reading the elections of 227 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: his letters that his brother had edited and published might 228 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: think that, you know, these were letters sent from the front. 229 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: Maybe they just got damaged in transit like that might 230 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: be what illegible meant. No, illegible meant that Harold went 231 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: through them and expurgated them. 232 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: He made them illegible. 233 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And logically, with it being you know, the early 234 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: twentieth century, if what was being cut out was in 235 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 2: some way related to Wilfred Owen having feelings or relationships 236 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: with other men that likely would not have been something 237 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: he would have been writing openly about. So it seems 238 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: like this could have been things that his brother would 239 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 2: have been like able to see that people could like 240 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: read into, or like his brother not being particularly guarded 241 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 2: without how he was writing about things right but near 242 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: that passage where Owen where Harold Owen and his biography 243 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: of his brother described him as having no relationship with 244 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: anybody because he thought it might interfere with his intellectual ability. 245 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: Harold Owen said this about himself, quote, I deliberately chose 246 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: the Roman Catholic religion because of its insistence on celibacy, 247 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: and Wilfrid's thinking poetry supplanted religion. And I was just like, 248 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: I have thoughts and questions, let me do if we 249 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: had a time machine, I would just kind of want 250 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: to go meet both of these brothers and talk to 251 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: them more. This whole thing also illustrates why I can 252 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: find the meme about historians describing lovers as friends to 253 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: be frustrating, because this is the kind of things that 254 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: his story are dealing with when writing about queer history. 255 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 2: A lot of the time friends and family members who 256 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: are very protective of somebody's legacy, who in some cases 257 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: have gone through and cut parts of their letters out 258 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 2: with scissors and will not allow historians access to the 259 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 2: actual primary original documents to review them, only selectively give 260 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 2: some stuff or some exp expurgated stuff or whatever. And 261 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: it's only later, often after either those family members have died, 262 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: or those family members have become more open about you know, 263 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: their past family member, or in some cases, you know, 264 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 2: something's been passed down through a family and they come 265 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: into the hands of somebody who has different you know, 266 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 2: social and political ideal ideals and beliefs than the person 267 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: who was originally cutting stuff out of letters with scissors. 268 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: That is when historians are actually able to get more 269 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: into the real depth of a person's whole life. So 270 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 2: as sure, there are you know, previous histories of or 271 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: previous biographies of Wilford Owen, including once written by his brother, 272 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: that don't touch on that at all, And one element 273 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: of that is like just not having access to the 274 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 2: original documents and their entirety to go through. Yeah, I 275 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 2: always try to think about, like what that moment is 276 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 2: where someone decides essentially to rewrite history, and I honestly 277 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: am a little conflicted about it for a couple of reasons. 278 00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: Obviously, like it sucks to not have original documents available 279 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: to tell it an accurate story. I also do understand 280 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: as frustrating it as it has been for me. Not 281 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: just in cases like this where it's queerness being raised, 282 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: but you know, with anyone where there's something about them 283 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: that someone in their family thought it was best people 284 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: not know. But I can also see as incorrect as 285 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: this this move was, you know, someone like his brother, 286 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: who clearly had his own stuff going on, worrying that 287 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: his brother's legacy would be forgotten or tainted in some way, 288 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: and wanting to position it in a way that he 289 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: would be recognized for his writing and not the other 290 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: things about him. Right, I mean, And it's hard because 291 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: it's easy for us to go that's shortsighted. But like 292 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: at the time, it probably seemed like, well, his work 293 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: could be buried forever, or I can do this right 294 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: and he can be seen in this other way. Not 295 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: the same thing at all, but right, Like Queen Victoria's 296 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: daughter trashed a bunch of her writing yeah, and she 297 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: died rather than let people see it. And so I 298 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: do understand that there's also a tertiary part of it 299 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: for me where I also wonder how much grief is 300 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: informing it, because if you've I mean, every one of 301 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: us will experience a grief if you have not already, 302 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, and it sucks. But there is a 303 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: thing that happens. I have seen it happen to people 304 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: where when someone has passed, without even being cognizant that 305 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: you are editing the story, people start telling their version 306 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: of that person's story, focusing on things that are different 307 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 1: than other things and wanting to almost create this not 308 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: always idealized, but a version that is what they remember 309 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: and what they were part of. Yeah. Yeah, and wanting 310 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: to like pare down anything that doesn't fit that. Yeah. Again, 311 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: don't love it, but I do understand the motivation of it. Yeah. 312 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: Well, And socially, the culture that you and I have 313 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: grown up in and lived in in our whole lives, 314 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: we eulogize people after they die, when like that's just 315 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: sort of a baseline of what's expected. Is like, yeah, 316 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: you don't go to somebody's funeral and say a bunch 317 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: of things about them that could be taken as really 318 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 2: negative into a typical. 319 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: Unless you're a rabbel rouser, unless you're a rabbl rasler. 320 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: Like the word eulogy literally has the idea that it's 321 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: affirming there in the word yeah. 322 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: So yeah. 323 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: The story of Wilfred Owen and all of his personal 324 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: papers reminds me a little bit of and Lister, who 325 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: we covered on the show before. Yeah wrote if you 326 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: haven't heard that episode, and Lister basically wanted to marry 327 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: a woman and figured out a way to make that 328 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: work for herself and wrote many, many, many diaries extensively 329 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: chronicling her life and also in chronicling all of her relationships. 330 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: And when a family member later on, you know, this 331 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: is all in the nineteenth century, when all of this 332 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,719 Speaker 2: would have been stigmatized and in some ways illegal. Family 333 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: member cracked the code that she had written in, realized 334 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: what they were about, and kind of went yikes, and 335 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 2: put them back in the vault. And I feel like 336 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: we're so fortunate that those things they went back in 337 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 2: the vault instead of being burned, because that is something 338 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: that could have happened and has happened with other figures 339 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 2: from history and honestly people, now, I'm sure so Yeah, 340 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: I still just want to hug Wilfrid now I love 341 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: so desperately that he and his mother worked out a 342 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 2: code together. Yeah, and a couple of different codes, a 343 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: couple of different ways to stay in touch. I didn't 344 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: know anything about these postcards until learning about the code 345 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 2: that they had worked out together. And the postcards were 346 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: just basically a fast way to let your loved ones 347 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: know that you were alive. 348 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 349 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 2: It took you know, two seconds to fill the thing 350 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 2: out and then it would just be mailed. And it 351 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: had instructions printed on it very clearly that if you 352 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: wrote anything on it other than your name, the date, 353 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: and the date of the last letter you received from 354 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,719 Speaker 2: that person, it would just be discarded. And also, you know, 355 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 2: the things in and of themselves a form of propaganda, 356 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 2: because of all of the statements you could communicate with 357 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: somebody were none of them were like yeah, none of 358 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: them were like I am in the hospital and will 359 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: never recover. Like that was not an option. 360 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: I wonder too, since these were posts cards, if part 361 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: of this wasn't an effort at concealment from like enemies, 362 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: reading Oh yeah, maybe and trying to triangulate where people were, 363 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: what kind of actions were happening, et cetera. I mean it, yes, 364 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: it is propaganda. Still, I'm not trying to claim it's not. 365 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: But like, if there is a secondary like intelligence and 366 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: concealment aspect to it, maybe so maybe so I want 367 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: to I can so easily picture a film about the 368 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: leadership sitting around in a room going, well, we have 369 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: to make it easy for them to communicate with their 370 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: people back home. Okay, but then that's going to make 371 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: it easy for our enemies to read them, and them 372 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: figuring out this complex flow chart of what they could 373 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: and could not include. 374 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: Having had a job before where I had to write 375 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: things that went through multiple levels of approval and revision, 376 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: I am imagining the approval process of exactly what went 377 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 2: on this postcard. I'm imagining that we can just write 378 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 2: a whole musical about the whole writing and editing. 379 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: Oh, you write the musical. I don't want the singing, 380 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: but I would be really. 381 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 2: Bad at that. I was just thinking about about Operation 382 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: Min's Meat is just what that made me think of 383 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: a show that I've only heard parts of. Anyway, Anyway, 384 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 2: whatever's happening on your weekend. I hope it as good 385 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 2: as possible. If there's somebody in your life that you 386 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 2: want to go hug, I hope they're cool with that 387 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: and that you're able to go give them a hug. 388 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 2: We'll be back tomorrow with a Saturday classic and something 389 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: brand new on Monday. 390 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History. 391 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 392 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 393 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.