WEBVTT - How does travel engage the senses? 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:14.560 Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.279 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.239 today we're gonna be talking about travel. This is an 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.560 interesting subject to think about right now because of the 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.840 context of the ongoing pandemic. You know, at least here 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.160 in the United States in early July. Of course, the 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.599 risk from coronavirus is still clear. It's very profound, and 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.879 so this has put some obvious limitations on people's designs 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.880 for summer travel, like whether it's actually worth the risk 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.680 at all to travel right now, and if you do travel, 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.479 how to mitigate those risks. Of course, if you are 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.000 traveling this summer, you should consult your local health guidelines. 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.440 It'll probably include advice like avoiding crowds all the stuff 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:53.760 you're familiar with by now, keeping your distance from people 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.760 outside your household, wearing a mask if you're in public, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.080 you might need to quarantine before or afterwards, depending on 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.760 where you are, and so forth. But in addition to 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.080 these practical considerations, it's the time of year that a 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.440 lot of people would traditionally be thinking about summer vacation season. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.720 You know, they be thinking about how this is when 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.479 they would be trying to get out of the house 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.840 and go somewhere and see something new, and that underlying 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.880 urge might still be there even as we grapple with 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.920 all the risks and important precautions that you would need 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.040 to take if you were actually going to travel right now. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.160 And this has gotten me thinking about what travel means 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.319 to us and why it is that our brains keep 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.800 trying to compel us to visit far off places known 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.080 and unknown. Yeah, and to your point, though, it is 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.840 a weird time to think about travel. I was in 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:45.240 a like a zoom call with some friends last week 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.520 and one of one of them said, well, you know, 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:50.120 I don't know if I can do next week because 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.360 I need to travel. Actually, no, I'm not traveling. I'm 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:54.000 just going. I'm getting in the car and going from 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.639 one place to another. And we're all a little that's travel. 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.920 That sounds a lot like travel, but but we mean 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.840 different things by travel and um, and we're gonna we're 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.920 gonna get into that a bit here in this episode, 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.760 because yeah, human travel is really fascinating when you think 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:12.280 about it. The act of simply traversing distances, or say, 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.720 traversing vast distances, is far from a distinctly human thing. Uh, 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.520 consider like some of the more outstanding cases, like the 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.120 Eastern gray whale, for example, which regularly journeys close to 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.880 fourteen thousand miles from Russian waters to Mexico and then 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.320 back again. Yeah, great white sharks or another example that 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.760 swim just these unimaginable distances. I was just reading some 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.120 reports from about a great white shark named Lydia that 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:40.360 was tagged with a tracking device off the coast of 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.480 Florida in March, and then about a year later she 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.800 had traveled something like twenty thousand miles across the Atlantic, 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.520 you know, crossing over the mid Atlantic Ridge, and was 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:56.800 heading towards basically around the UK. Yeah. Another example that 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.919 frequently comes up monarch butterflies. They take a five hour 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.720 and five mile journey from central Mexico and California up 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.560 into North America. It kind of goes in different phases, 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:08.359 but eventually they're you know, they're getting up as far 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.280 north as the Great Lakes. And then in the the 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.520 avian world, we have a number of amazing examples, but 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.880 the most extreme is that of the Arctic Turn, which 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.280 flies a record forty four thousand miles. So these are 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.280 just a few examples of some amazing journeys undertaken by 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.799 individuals or groups. But then there's also the steady tide 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.360 of migration that enables organisms to spread out across the planet. 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.040 In humans are of course a prime example of this, 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.240 with our earliest waves of archaic human migration beginning what 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.480 an estimated two million years ago, and in waves we 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.920 proceeded over the course of our history to spread across 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:46.280 the planet, finding a foothold in all but the most 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.240 inhospitable of environments. Yeah, and there's something interesting to think 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.360 about when comparing human travel to other long traveling organisms, 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:59.160 which is that humans travel mostly on land. Like obviously 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.320 we travel by air and c. Two. But when you 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:03.800 think about most of human history, a lot of the 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.040 traveling is on land. And if you look at just 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.080 a list of like the farthest traveling organisms, you will 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.800 see a lot of magnificent beasts that travel either by 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.120 water or by air. And these are very different methods 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.480 of travel, right. These are both methods that allow you 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.680 to do unique things like drift along in currents of 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.359 the fluid whether that's air or water that move naturally 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.280 through the larger media. You can't really do the same 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.760 thing on land, right unless you're like riding a mud 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.920 slide down a mountain, which is not safe and not recommended. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.039 Uh And and so that makes that makes land travel 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.760 kind of different than the other ones. Uh. And of 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:44.920 course there are other animals that do this. There there 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.800 are some epic walkers on earth, like the blue will 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.120 to beast in Africa, or the caribou in North America, 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:56.000 the ladder of which sometimes migrates something like forty kilometers annually. Yeah, 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.359 it's incredible. I guess you could say that that flying 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.839 and uh and traveling by boat for the passenger anyway, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.839 it is kind of like you're you're taking walking and 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.360 via the use of vehicles, applying it to the air 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:14.599 the sea. But but yeah, for the most part, we 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.040 are we are walkers. We have to have these these 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.440 fabulous vehicles that allow us to do anything more. I 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.800 do enjoy those thought experiments of like running, how fast 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.000 are you going? If you're running forward in a plane 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:31.960 cabin that's already flying too fast because you should sit down. Um. Now, 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.839 of so human societies of what they've spread out across 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.479 the world, but of course they continue to move around 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.600 for the same reasons that animal species do for resources, 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.560 for mating, for shelter. Hunter gatherer societies especially had to 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.080 follow the natural ebb and flow of available resources where 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.520 food could be found, growing, where the prey animals traveled 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:53.400 and therefore, you know, you have to follow them and 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.320 hunt them. And there were also associated sites that offered shelter, 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.120 water or say in some cases something like hot spring, 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.240 something that was uh, you know, a desirable resource to 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.680 have on hand. And it wasn't until the agricultural revolution 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.120 that humans really were able to put themselves more in 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.400 a position to set down roots. But still many groups 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.839 remain nomadic by necessity. Shepherds, you know, for sure, But 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.159 also you know, think of fisher people who still have 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.880 to get in their fantastic vehicles of old and travel 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.120 to where the fish can be found, and with surplus 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.440 stocks of agriculture. With the rise of cities, we also 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.320 see the traveling conqueror, the the occupation of cities and 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.320 advances in sailing technology that enabled people to expand even further. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:41.240 But what about traveling for reasons not directly associated with food? 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:45.839 Shelter and reproduction. This leads us to a particularly human 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.640 aspect of travel UH that that ultimately brings us to 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.919 our modern idea of travel and especially things like vacation travel. 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.880 But it has its roots in religious travel, sacred travel, 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:02.720 and pilgrimage into sing I was reading um paper by 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.279 Lutt's uh kilber Um. This is a titled Paradigms of 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.680 Travel from Medieval Pilgrimage to the postmodern Virtual tour poised 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.440 in two thousand six Tourism, Religion and Spiritual Journeys UH, 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.880 and the author points out that religiously motivated or sacred 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.120 travel to sacred sites might well be the oldest and 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.520 most prevalent type of travel and human history, and may 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.960 have factored into the beginnings of the world's oldest religions. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.800 Religious travel is the oldest form of what is sometimes 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.640 referred to as non economic travel, and we see evidence 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:41.320 of this going back even to Neolithic times. I was 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.600 reading about this in UH Intercultural Pilgrimage, Identity and the 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.880 Actual Age and the Ancient Near East by Joy mccorriston, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:53.320 published in Excavating Pilgrimage from Seen and the author points 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:57.240 out that we see examples of temporary gathering uh sacrifice 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.240 and feast that are quote commemorated in a memorial roal 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.880 or monument with subsequent revisits and these day back to 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.720 Neolithic times. Likewise, in Africa we see evidence from eight 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.640 thousand years ago of cattle sacrifice in quote mortuary linked 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:16.640 feasting that they commemorated with stone monuments. Yeah, religious pilgrimage 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.200 is an interesting thing to consider, and there are multiple 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.400 models for thinking about the cultural role of pilgrimage and 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.680 how it first emerges in history or I guess in prehistory. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.640 Given the examples you decided, one interesting idea that I 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:34.120 came across was in the works of the influential anthropologists 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.480 Victor and Edith Turner in their nineteen seventy eight book 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.360 Image and Pilgrimage and Christian Culture that was from Columbia 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.160 University Press. And in this book they observe a lot 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.280 of things about Christian pilgrimage sites. So they do like 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:54.600 observation of the behaviors of pilgrim's uh it sites from 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:59.040 Mexico to Ireland to France, and they end up characterizing 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:05.080 these religious pilgrimages as what they call a limonoid phenomenon. Now, 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.720 this was interesting to me, but it also gets kind 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:09.800 of complex and took me a while to understand, and 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.240 I think I've got it figured out. So here are 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.280 the basics. Uh So, first of all, the idea of 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:19.040 a limonoid phenomenon plays on the original idea of a 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.079 liminal experience, which is a term that was coined by 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.880 a folklorist named Arnold van gennep Uh And the word 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.160 liminal here comes from the word for threshold. So a 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:35.360 liminal experience is part of an initiation or a rite 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:40.680 of passage, in which a person temporarily steps outside of 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:45.720 normal social structures to undergo or signal a change, and 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.120 then rejoins the social structure on the other side of 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.760 the experience having changed. So there's who you are before 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.719 the change that's preliminal, and then there's who you are 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.520 after the change that's postliminal, and then in between there's 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.160 this spended middle state, the liminal stage. And this might 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.560 be in a practical example, say the time that a 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.360 person physically separates themselves from the rest of their tribe 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.280 to do rituals for some part of a right of passage, 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.840 and in the context that they studied. The Turners argue 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:22.640 that this middle liminal status is reinforced by the fact 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.840 that people join in what they call a community toss. 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:30.800 It's this sense of community with other pilgrims that comes 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.080 with a freeing sense of equality and a shedding of 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:38.880 previously existing social structures and differences. Though I have noted 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:43.079 that several critics disagree with the Turner's characterization here, citing 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.000 examples of well, you know, there are times when regular 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.199 power structures are still expressed among in between pilgrims to 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.280 religious sites. It may be that if this equalizing community 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.319 power of community toss during pilgrimage really exists, it might 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.960 be more common in some types of pill rimage than others. 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.920 And just one example that there was a paper I 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.080 found by a scholar named Darlene Yushka which does an 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.920 amazing job of making this critical point just in its title, 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.400 which is whose turn is it to cook? But to 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.120 bring it back to the idea of so. So they're 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.960 arguing that pilgrimage might be one of these liminal experiences, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:23.199 this like in in the middle state of this change process, 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.680 except they call it not quite liminal. They say it's lemonoid. 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.920 And so lemonoid applies to experiences that are somewhat like 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.160 liminal experiences in structure, but they're more optional, and they're 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.760 less explicitly transformative of your station in society, so they 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.200 might be seen as simply an internally transformative experience rather 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.479 than as a marker of an external change in status. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.760 And in a lot of religious tractions, pilgrimage is honored 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.400 but not required, you know, so that would make it 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.840 more limonoid than liminal. And I was reading a review 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.000 of the Turner's work by the anthropologist Daniel are Gross, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.320 and so he has kind of a mixed opinion. He 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.560 thinks the book is valuable, but that he also has 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:10.920 some criticisms of the idea of communitas being a universal 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.959 But he pulls an interesting quote from the Turner's book 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.600 describing the role of of the of the Christian pilgrimage, 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:23.480 which says, quote in the paradigmatic Christian pilgrimage, the initiatory 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.240 quality of the process is given priority, though it is 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:32.280 initiation to and not through a threshold. So, if I 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.120 understand correctly in their view based on all of the 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.680 observations they've made of Christian pilgrimages, the symbolic message of 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.280 a Christian pilgrimage most often might be not you are 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:48.640 now changed, but welcome to the process of change. That's interesting, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.760 and I think that's something we can we can continue 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.080 to take with us in this discussion and apply to 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:57.640 uh to to travel itself. The idea of travel as 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.800 a a process of change, which we probably don't think 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.120 about it as such, but I think whenever we engage 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.880 in meaningful travel uh it is a process of change. 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:12.160 We should arrive in a different place and end in 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.040 at least a slightly transformed state of mind. Like even 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.520 if it's as simple as well, I have to drive 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.320 up to uh, you know, um to my parents house, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.480 but I'm gonna listen to this audio book on the way, 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.400 or I'm gonna catch up on my podcast, Like I'm 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:29.080 somehow going to arrive there in an enhanced state. Yeah, 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.040 I think you're exactly right, And I think it makes 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.760 a lot of sense to think about that enhanced state 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:38.640 that travel triggers as essentially an openness to change or 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.839 a potential for change. So I think it's pretty safe 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.360 to say that, as far as non economic travel goes, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:50.680 sacred journeys are ultimately that the predecessor to modern vacation travel. Now, 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.480 a particular line is often drawn to the link between 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.000 medieval pilgrimage and also some of the economics of medieval 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:01.120 pilgrimage with modern travel. You know, you see um advances 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.640 in banking and so forth to take place during that time. Uh. 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.400 And of course it's also important to note that the 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.440 pilgrimage is still, you know, very much a part of 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.120 modern travel traditions, not only in the overt case of 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.160 you know, people going on an actual pilgrimage to holy site, say, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.160 you know, to to Mecca on the hodge, that sort 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.120 of thing, but also holy sites are often of significance 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.440 to the modern traveler, even if they themselves are not, uh, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.200 you know, believers of that particular faith or practitioners of 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.400 that particular faith. Like if you you know, if you 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.960 go to a particular vacation destination and there is an 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.200 ancient temple, there's a good chance you're gonna want to 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.480 check it out to whatever degree is appropriate. This actually 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.240 triggers something for me that I want to come back 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:47.640 to when we talk about Roman tourism. Yes, Roman tourism, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.320 because because this is also key we again we can 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.520 we can look to examples of sacred travel, uh, you know, 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.040 far back in history. But in terms of looking for 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:01.080 examples of travel that more closely resemble durn vacation travel, 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.920 there are some interesting examples from the Greek and Roman periods. Uh. 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.200 For instance, in our episode uh that we have this 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:10.920 is from what a couple of years ago, I think 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.440 we did an episode on the singing Colossi of Memnon. 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.720 We mentioned how the then fourteen hundred year old pair 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.920 of Egyptian statues were visited by Roman travelers in the 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:26.360 first century. See they you know, they've come to experience them, 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:30.080 to to hear this unique singing that they that that 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.480 that they produced. Uh. And then they inscribed their names 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.280 on the statue as well to show that they had 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.400 been there. So rude, I mean, I guess they just 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.280 must have had a different attitude towards the preservation of 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.840 historical artifacts and monuments. But man, yeah, graffiti on this 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.440 like hundreds of years old monument. Yeah. And it's worth 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.800 noting that they did seem to equate these statues with 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.960 the Greek figure Memnon. Uh. But the colossi were not 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.240 really of the religious value to the Roman travelers. As 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.080 far as we can tell. Uh, and of course they 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.400 were of Egyptian origin anyway. On one hand, I think 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.960 that is true, But also that had me thinking about 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.600 another tangent, about the significance of sites that we visit 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.680 and how our orientation toward culture and religion kind of 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:24.360 uh mitigates whatever that that relationship is. Uh. Something that 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.760 I think is possibly interesting about understanding the Pagan Roman 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.840 mindset is that well, at least compared to us, at 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.000 least here in the United States, for a lot of US, 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.760 our idea of religious significance is primarily through either kind 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.480 of a secular lens of just sort of disinterested observation, 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.720 or perhaps through an exclusive monotheistic lens, So that when 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.840 we visit sites or monuments that were of religious significance 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:54.400 to other cultures in history, I think it's possible that 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.200 we're more likely to just think what that was somebody 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.480 else's belief. I don't believe that, but this is in tristing. 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:05.680 But the Pagan Romans were I think somewhat more religiously omnivorous. 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.360 Their world was full of God's and I think too 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.679 many of them it would have been perfectly plausible to 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.080 go somewhere and find out about yet another god that 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.320 you weren't aware of before. Uh So, I think it 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.040 might have been possible for a pagan Roman to wonder, 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.399 you know, to to see a statue made by the 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.040 ancient Egyptians that had some religious significance to them and 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.520 wonder if something is going on here that's worth investigating 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.640 or knowing more about, at least more than than many 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.040 of us would would feel that way. And if there's 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.240 any truth to this, it would make traveling to a 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.399 foreign land with a great history a different kind of 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.520 experience I think like it would be. You know, you 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.719 might also discover things that are actively relevant in the world. 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.760 I know that the Romans generally had a respect for 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.040 antiquity when it came to religious traditions. Uh though, I'd 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.680 be interested to hear from listeners with expertise in ancient 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.840 Roman culture and religion to find out what they think 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.200 of about this. Now, this is a great point, Yeah, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.439 that perhaps the Romans traveled more um with kind of 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:11.320 a spiritual mindset, you know, as opposed to a religious one. Um. 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.280 I you know, as as a traveler who who does 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.920 like to go to to religious sides. I mean I 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.640 always think it is kind of an a rewarding exercise 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.560 to sort of engage in that kind of spiritual mindset, 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.640 you know, to try to at least to the degree 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:32.800 that is culturally appropriate, you know, to to experience it. Uh, 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:34.720 almost as if you were a believer, you know what 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.679 I'm saying. Um, though it's gonna you know, obviously it's 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.920 gonna vary depending on what is what is culturally appropriate, 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:45.000 what feels appropriate given given the space. But but yeah, 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:46.920 you go to some of these these places and you're 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.320 engaging with such such history and like the and the 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.159 level of belief is is tangible because a lot of 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.239 times you go to a religious side and there are 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.359 practitioners of the religion. They're maintaining the grounds or the 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.720 facilities in addition to visiting it, and it it creates 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.680 this this sacred air that you can't help but breathe in. Yeah, 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:09.000 I totally agree. Now, another issue just whether or not 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.480 it's appropriate and all that, it's also just a question 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.679 of what to what extent it's possible for you to 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.920 like get into that alternate mindset. I know it's easier 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.600 for some people than others, But yeah, I think that's 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.199 a wonderful exercise. All right. On that note, we're going 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:23.920 to take a quick break, but when we come back 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.760 we will discuss um the work of a Greek author 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.359 that's that is sometimes pointed to as the world's first 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:40.000 travel guide. Thank alright, we're back, so yeah. A particular 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:44.840 note here is a Greek geographer, Pausanias, who lived u 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:49.280 one Tin through one a d c. And some indeed 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.160 point to to him as being the world's first travel writer. 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.520 He wrote a book in the second century titled Hello 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:01.159 dos Paregus, or the Description of Greece. It is essentially 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.639 a travel guide. UM. I was reading about this in 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.760 an Atlas Obscura article titled the World's first travel Writer 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.960 was a guy from Ancient Greece by Lauren Young and 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.600 she she chats with Maria Pretzler, professor of Ancient History 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.040 at Swansea University in Wales and the author um of 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.320 a book about Passonias Pasanias travel writing in ancient Greece, 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.760 and uh. The author says that you know, there were 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.480 smaller guides at the time, but Passonia's book is the 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.960 largest and the most comprehensive that survives to this day. 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.040 And also it still works. It's still functions as a 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:41.159 travel guide. You know, obviously the world has changed, but 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.720 a lot of the places and even the landmarks are 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:48.240 still there. Interesting Now. The full text can be found online, 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.879 and I invite everyone to go check it out because 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.760 it's it's very recognizable and travel literature. This is not 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.600 an example where you're looking at ancient writings and you're 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.240 having to really, you know, squint a bid and you know, 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.199 take a few EAPs of faith to identify it as 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.680 to travel writing. No, you read it and it reads 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.159 more or less like modern travel guides. In fact, I 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.520 highly recommend when you read it, uh, make sure that 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.000 the voice that you hear in your head is tuned 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:18.000 to your favorite TV travel guide, maybe Rick Steves or someone, 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.120 because it's exactly the sort of thing Rick Steves would say, 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.720 you know, would be like like Passonius is saying, oh, well, 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:25.800 you're gonna you're gonna around this next corner, and then 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:28.359 you're gonna see the city of such and such, and 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.400 out here you're gonna see the sea, and well there's 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.000 a there's a particular legend about this, uh, about a 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.240 military engagement that happened here that you know, this sort 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.600 of thing. He's just telling you how you travel from 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:40.520 one place to the other. What you're gonna see there? 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:44.119 What the historical significance or cultural significance of the place is. 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.320 I want to know the ancient Greco Roman world's equivalent 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.240 of the person who like gives the one star Google 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:55.199 reviews to all inspiring monuments from the ancient world, you know, 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.240 like two stars for the less shan Buddha. Well, I 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.000 mean maybe I don't don't even think the Romans were 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.040 doing that on the Colossi were there, Uh, like one 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.040 star coloss I did not sing while I was here. 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:10.240 That's sort of thing that was too hot, bathrooms hard 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.040 to find. Yeah, as far as I can tell, Pausanias 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.240 wasn't engaging in in any of that. But he is 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.199 indeed often pointed to is as this example of like 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:24.959 early travel literature and this idea of modern travel uh 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.320 in the ancient world. But there are also some some 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.800 other examples that pop up. There's a quote attributed to 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.840 the semi legendary Chinese philosopher Lao Zu, the Old Master 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.480 and the founder of Daoism, who's often depicted as traveling 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:43.119 on a water buffalo um in in in art and sculpture, 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.159 and the quote is a good traveler has no fixed 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:50.680 plans and is not intent upon arriving. So he's said 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:53.120 to be a sixth century BC figure, though he might 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.960 have been a fourth century BC historical figure. Again, he 0:22:57.119 --> 0:22:59.439