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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: today we're gonna be talking about travel. This is an

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Speaker 1: interesting subject to think about right now because of the

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Speaker 1: context of the ongoing pandemic. You know, at least here

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Speaker 1: in the United States in early July. Of course, the

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Speaker 1: risk from coronavirus is still clear. It's very profound, and

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Speaker 1: so this has put some obvious limitations on people's designs

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Speaker 1: for summer travel, like whether it's actually worth the risk

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Speaker 1: at all to travel right now, and if you do travel,

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Speaker 1: how to mitigate those risks. Of course, if you are

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Speaker 1: traveling this summer, you should consult your local health guidelines.

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Speaker 1: It'll probably include advice like avoiding crowds all the stuff

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Speaker 1: you're familiar with by now, keeping your distance from people

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Speaker 1: outside your household, wearing a mask if you're in public,

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Speaker 1: you might need to quarantine before or afterwards, depending on

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Speaker 1: where you are, and so forth. But in addition to

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Speaker 1: these practical considerations, it's the time of year that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people would traditionally be thinking about summer vacation season.

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Speaker 1: You know, they be thinking about how this is when

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Speaker 1: they would be trying to get out of the house

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Speaker 1: and go somewhere and see something new, and that underlying

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Speaker 1: urge might still be there even as we grapple with

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Speaker 1: all the risks and important precautions that you would need

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Speaker 1: to take if you were actually going to travel right now.

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Speaker 1: And this has gotten me thinking about what travel means

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Speaker 1: to us and why it is that our brains keep

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Speaker 1: trying to compel us to visit far off places known

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Speaker 1: and unknown. Yeah, and to your point, though, it is

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Speaker 1: a weird time to think about travel. I was in

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Speaker 1: a like a zoom call with some friends last week

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Speaker 1: and one of one of them said, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can do next week because

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Speaker 1: I need to travel. Actually, no, I'm not traveling. I'm

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Speaker 1: just going. I'm getting in the car and going from

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Speaker 1: one place to another. And we're all a little that's travel.

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Speaker 1: That sounds a lot like travel, but but we mean

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Speaker 1: different things by travel and um, and we're gonna we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get into that a bit here in this episode,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, human travel is really fascinating when you think

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Speaker 1: about it. The act of simply traversing distances, or say,

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Speaker 1: traversing vast distances, is far from a distinctly human thing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: consider like some of the more outstanding cases, like the

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Speaker 1: Eastern gray whale, for example, which regularly journeys close to

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Speaker 1: fourteen thousand miles from Russian waters to Mexico and then

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Speaker 1: back again. Yeah, great white sharks or another example that

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Speaker 1: swim just these unimaginable distances. I was just reading some

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Speaker 1: reports from about a great white shark named Lydia that

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Speaker 1: was tagged with a tracking device off the coast of

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Speaker 1: Florida in March, and then about a year later she

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Speaker 1: had traveled something like twenty thousand miles across the Atlantic,

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Speaker 1: you know, crossing over the mid Atlantic Ridge, and was

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Speaker 1: heading towards basically around the UK. Yeah. Another example that

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Speaker 1: frequently comes up monarch butterflies. They take a five hour

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Speaker 1: and five mile journey from central Mexico and California up

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Speaker 1: into North America. It kind of goes in different phases,

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Speaker 1: but eventually they're you know, they're getting up as far

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Speaker 1: north as the Great Lakes. And then in the the

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Speaker 1: avian world, we have a number of amazing examples, but

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Speaker 1: the most extreme is that of the Arctic Turn, which

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Speaker 1: flies a record forty four thousand miles. So these are

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Speaker 1: just a few examples of some amazing journeys undertaken by

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Speaker 1: individuals or groups. But then there's also the steady tide

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Speaker 1: of migration that enables organisms to spread out across the planet.

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Speaker 1: In humans are of course a prime example of this,

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Speaker 1: with our earliest waves of archaic human migration beginning what

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Speaker 1: an estimated two million years ago, and in waves we

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Speaker 1: proceeded over the course of our history to spread across

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Speaker 1: the planet, finding a foothold in all but the most

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Speaker 1: inhospitable of environments. Yeah, and there's something interesting to think

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Speaker 1: about when comparing human travel to other long traveling organisms,

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Speaker 1: which is that humans travel mostly on land. Like obviously

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Speaker 1: we travel by air and c. Two. But when you

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Speaker 1: think about most of human history, a lot of the

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Speaker 1: traveling is on land. And if you look at just

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Speaker 1: a list of like the farthest traveling organisms, you will

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Speaker 1: see a lot of magnificent beasts that travel either by

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Speaker 1: water or by air. And these are very different methods

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Speaker 1: of travel, right. These are both methods that allow you

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Speaker 1: to do unique things like drift along in currents of

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Speaker 1: the fluid whether that's air or water that move naturally

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Speaker 1: through the larger media. You can't really do the same

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Speaker 1: thing on land, right unless you're like riding a mud

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Speaker 1: slide down a mountain, which is not safe and not recommended.

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Speaker 1: Uh And and so that makes that makes land travel

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Speaker 1: kind of different than the other ones. Uh. And of

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Speaker 1: course there are other animals that do this. There there

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Speaker 1: are some epic walkers on earth, like the blue will

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Speaker 1: to beast in Africa, or the caribou in North America,

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Speaker 1: the ladder of which sometimes migrates something like forty kilometers annually. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's incredible. I guess you could say that that flying

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Speaker 1: and uh and traveling by boat for the passenger anyway,

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Speaker 1: it is kind of like you're you're taking walking and

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Speaker 1: via the use of vehicles, applying it to the air

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Speaker 1: the sea. But but yeah, for the most part, we

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Speaker 1: are we are walkers. We have to have these these

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Speaker 1: fabulous vehicles that allow us to do anything more. I

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Speaker 1: do enjoy those thought experiments of like running, how fast

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Speaker 1: are you going? If you're running forward in a plane

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Speaker 1: cabin that's already flying too fast because you should sit down. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: of so human societies of what they've spread out across

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Speaker 1: the world, but of course they continue to move around

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Speaker 1: for the same reasons that animal species do for resources,

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Speaker 1: for mating, for shelter. Hunter gatherer societies especially had to

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Speaker 1: follow the natural ebb and flow of available resources where

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Speaker 1: food could be found, growing, where the prey animals traveled

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Speaker 1: and therefore, you know, you have to follow them and

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Speaker 1: hunt them. And there were also associated sites that offered shelter,

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Speaker 1: water or say in some cases something like hot spring,

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Speaker 1: something that was uh, you know, a desirable resource to

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Speaker 1: have on hand. And it wasn't until the agricultural revolution

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Speaker 1: that humans really were able to put themselves more in

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Speaker 1: a position to set down roots. But still many groups

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Speaker 1: remain nomadic by necessity. Shepherds, you know, for sure, But

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Speaker 1: also you know, think of fisher people who still have

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Speaker 1: to get in their fantastic vehicles of old and travel

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Speaker 1: to where the fish can be found, and with surplus

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Speaker 1: stocks of agriculture. With the rise of cities, we also

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Speaker 1: see the traveling conqueror, the the occupation of cities and

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Speaker 1: advances in sailing technology that enabled people to expand even further.

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Speaker 1: But what about traveling for reasons not directly associated with food?

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Speaker 1: Shelter and reproduction. This leads us to a particularly human

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Speaker 1: aspect of travel UH that that ultimately brings us to

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Speaker 1: our modern idea of travel and especially things like vacation travel.

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Speaker 1: But it has its roots in religious travel, sacred travel,

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Speaker 1: and pilgrimage into sing I was reading um paper by

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Speaker 1: Lutt's uh kilber Um. This is a titled Paradigms of

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Speaker 1: Travel from Medieval Pilgrimage to the postmodern Virtual tour poised

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Speaker 1: in two thousand six Tourism, Religion and Spiritual Journeys UH,

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Speaker 1: and the author points out that religiously motivated or sacred

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Speaker 1: travel to sacred sites might well be the oldest and

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Speaker 1: most prevalent type of travel and human history, and may

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Speaker 1: have factored into the beginnings of the world's oldest religions.

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Speaker 1: Religious travel is the oldest form of what is sometimes

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Speaker 1: referred to as non economic travel, and we see evidence

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Speaker 1: of this going back even to Neolithic times. I was

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Speaker 1: reading about this in UH Intercultural Pilgrimage, Identity and the

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Speaker 1: Actual Age and the Ancient Near East by Joy mccorriston,

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Speaker 1: published in Excavating Pilgrimage from Seen and the author points

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Speaker 1: out that we see examples of temporary gathering uh sacrifice

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Speaker 1: and feast that are quote commemorated in a memorial roal

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Speaker 1: or monument with subsequent revisits and these day back to

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Speaker 1: Neolithic times. Likewise, in Africa we see evidence from eight

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Speaker 1: thousand years ago of cattle sacrifice in quote mortuary linked

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Speaker 1: feasting that they commemorated with stone monuments. Yeah, religious pilgrimage

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Speaker 1: is an interesting thing to consider, and there are multiple

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Speaker 1: models for thinking about the cultural role of pilgrimage and

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Speaker 1: how it first emerges in history or I guess in prehistory.

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Speaker 1: Given the examples you decided, one interesting idea that I

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Speaker 1: came across was in the works of the influential anthropologists

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Speaker 1: Victor and Edith Turner in their nineteen seventy eight book

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Speaker 1: Image and Pilgrimage and Christian Culture that was from Columbia

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Speaker 1: University Press. And in this book they observe a lot

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Speaker 1: of things about Christian pilgrimage sites. So they do like

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Speaker 1: observation of the behaviors of pilgrim's uh it sites from

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Speaker 1: Mexico to Ireland to France, and they end up characterizing

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Speaker 1: these religious pilgrimages as what they call a limonoid phenomenon. Now,

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Speaker 1: this was interesting to me, but it also gets kind

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Speaker 1: of complex and took me a while to understand, and

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Speaker 1: I think I've got it figured out. So here are

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Speaker 1: the basics. Uh So, first of all, the idea of

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Speaker 1: a limonoid phenomenon plays on the original idea of a

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Speaker 1: liminal experience, which is a term that was coined by

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Speaker 1: a folklorist named Arnold van gennep Uh And the word

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Speaker 1: liminal here comes from the word for threshold. So a

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Speaker 1: liminal experience is part of an initiation or a rite

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Speaker 1: of passage, in which a person temporarily steps outside of

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Speaker 1: normal social structures to undergo or signal a change, and

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Speaker 1: then rejoins the social structure on the other side of

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Speaker 1: the experience having changed. So there's who you are before

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Speaker 1: the change that's preliminal, and then there's who you are

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Speaker 1: after the change that's postliminal, and then in between there's

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Speaker 1: this spended middle state, the liminal stage. And this might

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Speaker 1: be in a practical example, say the time that a

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Speaker 1: person physically separates themselves from the rest of their tribe

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Speaker 1: to do rituals for some part of a right of passage,

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Speaker 1: and in the context that they studied. The Turners argue

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Speaker 1: that this middle liminal status is reinforced by the fact

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Speaker 1: that people join in what they call a community toss.

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Speaker 1: It's this sense of community with other pilgrims that comes

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Speaker 1: with a freeing sense of equality and a shedding of

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Speaker 1: previously existing social structures and differences. Though I have noted

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Speaker 1: that several critics disagree with the Turner's characterization here, citing

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Speaker 1: examples of well, you know, there are times when regular

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Speaker 1: power structures are still expressed among in between pilgrims to

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Speaker 1: religious sites. It may be that if this equalizing community

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Speaker 1: power of community toss during pilgrimage really exists, it might

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Speaker 1: be more common in some types of pill rimage than others.

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Speaker 1: And just one example that there was a paper I

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Speaker 1: found by a scholar named Darlene Yushka which does an

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Speaker 1: amazing job of making this critical point just in its title,

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Speaker 1: which is whose turn is it to cook? But to

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Speaker 1: bring it back to the idea of so. So they're

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Speaker 1: arguing that pilgrimage might be one of these liminal experiences,

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Speaker 1: this like in in the middle state of this change process,

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Speaker 1: except they call it not quite liminal. They say it's lemonoid.

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Speaker 1: And so lemonoid applies to experiences that are somewhat like

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Speaker 1: liminal experiences in structure, but they're more optional, and they're

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Speaker 1: less explicitly transformative of your station in society, so they

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Speaker 1: might be seen as simply an internally transformative experience rather

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Speaker 1: than as a marker of an external change in status.

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Speaker 1: And in a lot of religious tractions, pilgrimage is honored

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Speaker 1: but not required, you know, so that would make it

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Speaker 1: more limonoid than liminal. And I was reading a review

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Speaker 1: of the Turner's work by the anthropologist Daniel are Gross,

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Speaker 1: and so he has kind of a mixed opinion. He

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Speaker 1: thinks the book is valuable, but that he also has

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Speaker 1: some criticisms of the idea of communitas being a universal

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Speaker 1: But he pulls an interesting quote from the Turner's book

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Speaker 1: describing the role of of the of the Christian pilgrimage,

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Speaker 1: which says, quote in the paradigmatic Christian pilgrimage, the initiatory

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Speaker 1: quality of the process is given priority, though it is

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Speaker 1: initiation to and not through a threshold. So, if I

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Speaker 1: understand correctly in their view based on all of the

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Speaker 1: observations they've made of Christian pilgrimages, the symbolic message of

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Speaker 1: a Christian pilgrimage most often might be not you are

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Speaker 1: now changed, but welcome to the process of change. That's interesting,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's something we can we can continue

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Speaker 1: to take with us in this discussion and apply to

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Speaker 1: uh to to travel itself. The idea of travel as

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Speaker 1: a a process of change, which we probably don't think

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Speaker 1: about it as such, but I think whenever we engage

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Speaker 1: in meaningful travel uh it is a process of change.

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Speaker 1: We should arrive in a different place and end in

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Speaker 1: at least a slightly transformed state of mind. Like even

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Speaker 1: if it's as simple as well, I have to drive

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Speaker 1: up to uh, you know, um to my parents house,

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Speaker 1: but I'm gonna listen to this audio book on the way,

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Speaker 1: or I'm gonna catch up on my podcast, Like I'm

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Speaker 1: somehow going to arrive there in an enhanced state. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right, And I think it makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense to think about that enhanced state

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Speaker 1: that travel triggers as essentially an openness to change or

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Speaker 1: a potential for change. So I think it's pretty safe

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Speaker 1: to say that, as far as non economic travel goes,

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Speaker 1: sacred journeys are ultimately that the predecessor to modern vacation travel. Now,

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Speaker 1: a particular line is often drawn to the link between

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Speaker 1: medieval pilgrimage and also some of the economics of medieval

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Speaker 1: pilgrimage with modern travel. You know, you see um advances

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Speaker 1: in banking and so forth to take place during that time. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And of course it's also important to note that the

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Speaker 1: pilgrimage is still, you know, very much a part of

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Speaker 1: modern travel traditions, not only in the overt case of

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Speaker 1: you know, people going on an actual pilgrimage to holy site, say,

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Speaker 1: you know, to to Mecca on the hodge, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, but also holy sites are often of significance

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Speaker 1: to the modern traveler, even if they themselves are not, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, believers of that particular faith or practitioners of

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Speaker 1: that particular faith. Like if you you know, if you

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Speaker 1: go to a particular vacation destination and there is an

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Speaker 1: ancient temple, there's a good chance you're gonna want to

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Speaker 1: check it out to whatever degree is appropriate. This actually

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Speaker 1: triggers something for me that I want to come back

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Speaker 1: to when we talk about Roman tourism. Yes, Roman tourism,

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Speaker 1: because because this is also key we again we can

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Speaker 1: we can look to examples of sacred travel, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: far back in history. But in terms of looking for

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Speaker 1: examples of travel that more closely resemble durn vacation travel,

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Speaker 1: there are some interesting examples from the Greek and Roman periods. Uh.

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Speaker 1: For instance, in our episode uh that we have this

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Speaker 1: is from what a couple of years ago, I think

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Speaker 1: we did an episode on the singing Colossi of Memnon.

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Speaker 1: We mentioned how the then fourteen hundred year old pair

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Speaker 1: of Egyptian statues were visited by Roman travelers in the

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Speaker 1: first century. See they you know, they've come to experience them,

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Speaker 1: to to hear this unique singing that they that that

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Speaker 1: that they produced. Uh. And then they inscribed their names

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Speaker 1: on the statue as well to show that they had

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Speaker 1: been there. So rude, I mean, I guess they just

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Speaker 1: must have had a different attitude towards the preservation of

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Speaker 1: historical artifacts and monuments. But man, yeah, graffiti on this

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Speaker 1: like hundreds of years old monument. Yeah. And it's worth

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Speaker 1: noting that they did seem to equate these statues with

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Speaker 1: the Greek figure Memnon. Uh. But the colossi were not

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Speaker 1: really of the religious value to the Roman travelers. As

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Speaker 1: far as we can tell. Uh, and of course they

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Speaker 1: were of Egyptian origin anyway. On one hand, I think

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Speaker 1: that is true, But also that had me thinking about

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Speaker 1: another tangent, about the significance of sites that we visit

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Speaker 1: and how our orientation toward culture and religion kind of

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Speaker 1: uh mitigates whatever that that relationship is. Uh. Something that

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Speaker 1: I think is possibly interesting about understanding the Pagan Roman

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Speaker 1: mindset is that well, at least compared to us, at

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Speaker 1: least here in the United States, for a lot of US,

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Speaker 1: our idea of religious significance is primarily through either kind

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Speaker 1: of a secular lens of just sort of disinterested observation,

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Speaker 1: or perhaps through an exclusive monotheistic lens, So that when

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Speaker 1: we visit sites or monuments that were of religious significance

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Speaker 1: to other cultures in history, I think it's possible that

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Speaker 1: we're more likely to just think what that was somebody

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Speaker 1: else's belief. I don't believe that, but this is in tristing.

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Speaker 1: But the Pagan Romans were I think somewhat more religiously omnivorous.

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Speaker 1: Their world was full of God's and I think too

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Speaker 1: many of them it would have been perfectly plausible to

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Speaker 1: go somewhere and find out about yet another god that

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Speaker 1: you weren't aware of before. Uh So, I think it

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Speaker 1: might have been possible for a pagan Roman to wonder,

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Speaker 1: you know, to to see a statue made by the

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Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians that had some religious significance to them and

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Speaker 1: wonder if something is going on here that's worth investigating

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Speaker 1: or knowing more about, at least more than than many

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Speaker 1: of us would would feel that way. And if there's

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Speaker 1: any truth to this, it would make traveling to a

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Speaker 1: foreign land with a great history a different kind of

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Speaker 1: experience I think like it would be. You know, you

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Speaker 1: might also discover things that are actively relevant in the world.

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Speaker 1: I know that the Romans generally had a respect for

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Speaker 1: antiquity when it came to religious traditions. Uh though, I'd

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Speaker 1: be interested to hear from listeners with expertise in ancient

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Speaker 1: Roman culture and religion to find out what they think

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Speaker 1: of about this. Now, this is a great point, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that perhaps the Romans traveled more um with kind of

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Speaker 1: a spiritual mindset, you know, as opposed to a religious one. Um.

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Speaker 1: I you know, as as a traveler who who does

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Speaker 1: like to go to to religious sides. I mean I

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Speaker 1: always think it is kind of an a rewarding exercise

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Speaker 1: to sort of engage in that kind of spiritual mindset,

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Speaker 1: you know, to try to at least to the degree

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Speaker 1: that is culturally appropriate, you know, to to experience it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: almost as if you were a believer, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. Um, though it's gonna you know, obviously it's

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Speaker 1: gonna vary depending on what is what is culturally appropriate,

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Speaker 1: what feels appropriate given given the space. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: you go to some of these these places and you're

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Speaker 1: engaging with such such history and like the and the

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Speaker 1: level of belief is is tangible because a lot of

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Speaker 1: times you go to a religious side and there are

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Speaker 1: practitioners of the religion. They're maintaining the grounds or the

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Speaker 1: facilities in addition to visiting it, and it it creates

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Speaker 1: this this sacred air that you can't help but breathe in. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I totally agree. Now, another issue just whether or not

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Speaker 1: it's appropriate and all that, it's also just a question

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Speaker 1: of what to what extent it's possible for you to

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Speaker 1: like get into that alternate mindset. I know it's easier

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Speaker 1: for some people than others, But yeah, I think that's

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Speaker 1: a wonderful exercise. All right. On that note, we're going

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Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but when we come back

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Speaker 1: we will discuss um the work of a Greek author

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Speaker 1: that's that is sometimes pointed to as the world's first

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Speaker 1: travel guide. Thank alright, we're back, so yeah. A particular

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Speaker 1: note here is a Greek geographer, Pausanias, who lived u

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Speaker 1: one Tin through one a d c. And some indeed

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Speaker 1: point to to him as being the world's first travel writer.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book in the second century titled Hello

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Speaker 1: dos Paregus, or the Description of Greece. It is essentially

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Speaker 1: a travel guide. UM. I was reading about this in

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Speaker 1: an Atlas Obscura article titled the World's first travel Writer

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Speaker 1: was a guy from Ancient Greece by Lauren Young and

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Speaker 1: she she chats with Maria Pretzler, professor of Ancient History

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Speaker 1: at Swansea University in Wales and the author um of

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Speaker 1: a book about Passonias Pasanias travel writing in ancient Greece,

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Speaker 1: and uh. The author says that you know, there were

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Speaker 1: smaller guides at the time, but Passonia's book is the

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Speaker 1: largest and the most comprehensive that survives to this day.

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Speaker 1: And also it still works. It's still functions as a

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Speaker 1: travel guide. You know, obviously the world has changed, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of the places and even the landmarks are

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Speaker 1: still there. Interesting Now. The full text can be found online,

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Speaker 1: and I invite everyone to go check it out because

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Speaker 1: it's it's very recognizable and travel literature. This is not

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Speaker 1: an example where you're looking at ancient writings and you're

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Speaker 1: having to really, you know, squint a bid and you know,

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Speaker 1: take a few EAPs of faith to identify it as

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Speaker 1: to travel writing. No, you read it and it reads

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Speaker 1: more or less like modern travel guides. In fact, I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend when you read it, uh, make sure that

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Speaker 1: the voice that you hear in your head is tuned

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Speaker 1: to your favorite TV travel guide, maybe Rick Steves or someone,

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Speaker 1: because it's exactly the sort of thing Rick Steves would say,

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Speaker 1: you know, would be like like Passonius is saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna around this next corner, and then

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see the city of such and such, and

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Speaker 1: out here you're gonna see the sea, and well there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a particular legend about this, uh, about a

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Speaker 1: military engagement that happened here that you know, this sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. He's just telling you how you travel from

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Speaker 1: one place to the other. What you're gonna see there?

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Speaker 1: What the historical significance or cultural significance of the place is.

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Speaker 1: I want to know the ancient Greco Roman world's equivalent

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Speaker 1: of the person who like gives the one star Google

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Speaker 1: reviews to all inspiring monuments from the ancient world, you know,

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Speaker 1: like two stars for the less shan Buddha. Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean maybe I don't don't even think the Romans were

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Speaker 1: doing that on the Colossi were there, Uh, like one

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Speaker 1: star coloss I did not sing while I was here.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of thing that was too hot, bathrooms hard

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Speaker 1: to find. Yeah, as far as I can tell, Pausanias

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Speaker 1: wasn't engaging in in any of that. But he is

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Speaker 1: indeed often pointed to is as this example of like

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Speaker 1: early travel literature and this idea of modern travel uh

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Speaker 1: in the ancient world. But there are also some some

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Speaker 1: other examples that pop up. There's a quote attributed to

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Speaker 1: the semi legendary Chinese philosopher Lao Zu, the Old Master

395
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Speaker 1: and the founder of Daoism, who's often depicted as traveling

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Speaker 1: on a water buffalo um in in in art and sculpture,

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Speaker 1: and the quote is a good traveler has no fixed

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Speaker 1: plans and is not intent upon arriving. So he's said

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Speaker 1: to be a sixth century BC figure, though he might

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Speaker 1: have been a fourth century BC historical figure. Again, he

401
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: takes on this air of semi legendary status, like you

402
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Speaker 1: see with a lot of figures from that period in

403
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Speaker 1: Chinese history. Um though, Uh, what's interesting about this is this,

404
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Speaker 1: this this mantra of of traveling with no fixed plans

405
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Speaker 1: and not being intent upon arriving. It does certainly get

406
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Speaker 1: to sort of this this heart of travel as the

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00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: the transformative journey. Um and and it gets into this

408
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: you know, sort of unmoored sounding notion of travel, further

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Speaker 1: removed from the idea of destination travel and perhaps more

410
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Speaker 1: in common with some of the ideas of hunter gathering.

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Speaker 1: Uh though even in those traditions a certain amount of

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Speaker 1: strategic thinking was involved. This Uh, this this does feel

413
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Speaker 1: like a almost a I feel like a more modern

414
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Speaker 1: sense of you know, just go out and see the world,

415
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Speaker 1: just be that noble drifter from from that film you

416
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Speaker 1: saw in the fifties, that sort of thing. This allowed

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Speaker 1: to quote makes me think of a poem by St.

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Speaker 1: Vincent Malay, The Unexplored. Do you know this poem? I

419
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Speaker 1: don't think I do. It's great as a short little poem.

420
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Speaker 1: I can read the whole thing. So this was published

421
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Speaker 1: in nineteen two and she writes, there was a road

422
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Speaker 1: ran past our house, too lovely to explore. I asked

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Speaker 1: my mother once. She said that if you followed where

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Speaker 1: it led, it brought you to the milkman store. That's

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Speaker 1: why I have not traveled more. I think it's a

426
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Speaker 1: grade encapsulation of the sort of the let down feeling

427
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Speaker 1: of when you have when you're a child in the

428
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: world is full of unknown possibility. You have that exploration mindset,

429
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Speaker 1: and then the adult lays on you the instrumental nature

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Speaker 1: of travel. Well, that road goes to the place I

431
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: go to get this. And the interesting thing too, is

432
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: that allows you quote I think is going to get

433
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: to the heart of what we're going to spend the

434
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 1: rest of the podcast talking about. And that's how our

435
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: senses engage with travel. Because ultimately, if your if your

436
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: senses are fully engaged, if all this sense data is streaming,

437
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, into your nervous system and into your your

438
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: your brain this is how we often enter this state

439
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: of of you know, being in the moment, of living

440
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: in the now, of just observing and being a part

441
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: of the stream of things. And I think that ultimately,

442
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: like that's one of the really rewarding aspects of travel,

443
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: and it's we might not even focus on it that much.

444
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: I mean, and to a certain extent, especially today, like it.

445
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: It helps to have a destination in mind. It helps

446
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: to have a plan and you sort of plan everything

447
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: out and have a destination so that you can perhaps

448
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: feel even accidentally that unmoored uh nowness of travel. Yeah. Absolutely, Well,

449
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: then do you want to shift over now? Talked about

450
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: talk about travel in the census, Yeah, let's do it. So,

451
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: so we've went through some examples of what human travel

452
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: is and how long we've been carrying it out and

453
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: uh and we should also stress that travel is maybe

454
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: not for everyone. You certainly encounter people who don't care

455
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: for it or have intense personal or sort of scholarly

456
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 1: objections to engaging in travel. Ralph Waldo Emerson, for instance,

457
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: wrote traveling as a fool's Paradise. Our first journeys discovered

458
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: to us the indifference of places. Um and I guess

459
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: you also see that reflected in such adages as you know,

460
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: wherever you go, there you are that sort of thing.

461
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: Um And and I think sometimes that's that's more about

462
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: tramping on unreasonable expectations of travel. But but you you

463
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: also see this this notion elsewhere as well, of of

464
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: travel as being a way of of avoiding inner, local

465
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: and spiritual endeavors. Um Gandhi said something to this effect

466
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: as well. Oh yeah, well, I mean I can certainly

467
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: see for some people how travel might just be a

468
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: way too busy the mind, you know, just like anything,

469
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: just like the same way TV could be a way

470
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: too busy the mind. Um. And in that sense that,

471
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: I don't know that that might be a less rewarding

472
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: way to think about it than as opening yourself to

473
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: experiences of novelty and readying yourself for change. Yeah. But

474
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: but then again, even if you're intent is one thing,

475
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: if you're gonna end up getting, it's kind of like

476
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: sneaking the you know, the medicine into the jam or something,

477
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: or or you know, grinding up some pulverizing some vegetables

478
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: and sneaking them in, um, you know, to the President's spaghetti.

479
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: That sort of thing. Um, it's it's like, if you're

480
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: gonna end up engaging and novelty and engaging the senses

481
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: than uh, then then ultimately the goal was there. How

482
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,239
Speaker 1: I do I do want to point out there there

483
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: are environmental and sometimes health objections to travel, and we

484
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 1: touched on some of those at the beginning, and we

485
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: we should you know, certainly these are not things to

486
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: dismiss h No, absolutely not. I mean you can simultaneously

487
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: acknowledge that there might be a lot of great, uh

488
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: great reasons to appreciate the role of travel and human life,

489
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: while also understanding, you know, uh, maybe maybe we're driving

490
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: more than we should be, maybe we're flying in planes

491
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: more than we should be, and certainly understanding during like

492
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: a time of pandemic, that there are a lot of

493
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: inherent risks to travel and if you're going to do it,

494
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: you need to get really serious about finding ways to

495
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: make it safe. Yeah. And of course there's also the

496
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: point that the travel can be um, distravel itself as

497
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: industry can be an uh, you know, an economically transformative force,

498
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: but it can also be uh you can also pose

499
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: certain dangers to uh, to historical sites, to to local culture,

500
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: to the local environment if if it's not carried out

501
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: in just the right way. Yeah, that's another thing I'm

502
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: sure most people listening have probably experienced at some point

503
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: where you you go to a place wanting to experience

504
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,239
Speaker 1: what that place is actually like, and instead when you

505
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: get there, you find that it has been altered to

506
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: make itself amenable to tourists and visitors like you. You know, Yeah,

507
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: this this has sadly been the case with, for instance,

508
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: to some cave environments where a part of the cave

509
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: ecology is how it is is closed off and then

510
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: if you open it up, um, you often just I

511
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: mean you you take part of it's it's life away

512
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: from it. But uh and and as you I want

513
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: to come back to the tourism industry because there there's

514
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: actually a lot of informative material that comes out of

515
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: that industry, out of papers and conferences related to just

516
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: figuring out like how do people engage um in a

517
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: tourist experience. And this is where I came across really

518
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: what I thought to be just a wonderful visual breakdown

519
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: of how we engage with environmental stimuli during well, certainly

520
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: in this case during travel, but perhaps to a certain degree,

521
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: just you know, in life itself. And this was from

522
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: Designing Tourism Places Understanding the Tourism Experience through Our Senses

523
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: by Kim at All, presented at the two thousand fifteen

524
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: t t r A International Conference. And apparently this particular

525
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: graphic framework of tourism experience creation was adapted from some

526
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: earlier work by by Krishna from and I'm gonna describe

527
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: it here, but basically the ideas you start with a

528
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: very environmental stimuli and then that feeds into sensation, vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch,

529
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: appropriate reception, temperature, sense and pain. And then that's gonna

530
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: all those sensations and hopefully you're not feeling too much

531
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: pain on your your vacation or on your travel, but

532
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: a part of it pain makes an experience real, It's true. Yeah,

533
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: I mean generally my in my experience, the first day

534
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: of travel is going to have its share of pains,

535
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: and you you just got to be prepared for it.

536
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: But anyway, all those sensations then are going to go

537
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: through your individual filter and then from there they're gonna

538
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: go to perception. And then the perception of those senses

539
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: is going to go through the individual filter again, and

540
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: it's gonna go in a few couple of different directions.

541
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: It's gonna go to emotional response, your emotional response to

542
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: your perception of those different senses. It's also going to

543
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: go to a cognitive response to those perceptions of those

544
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: different senses. And then likewise you're gonna have an emotional

545
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: reaction to your cognitive responses, and you're also going to

546
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: have a cognitive response to your emotional responses. Um So

547
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, kind of going in a circle there, and

548
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: then all of that is going to go through the

549
00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: individual filter again and feed into attitude, memory, and behavior. Yeah,

550
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: and I think one of the elements that's most relevant

551
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: to us is how travel affects memory. I want to

552
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: come back to that in a moment after we discuss

553
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: novelty a bit. Yeah, Novelty I think is gonna be

554
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: gonna be key year. So, as we've discussed in the

555
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: show before, humans didn't evolve for to live in like

556
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: a solitary confinement situation. We evolved to thrive in an

557
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: environment of change, seeking resources, calculating risk, etcetera. And some

558
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 1: of these qualities have led to our I think our

559
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: species spirit of exploration but one of the more studied

560
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: aspects of all of this is certainly novelty, because travel,

561
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: to a very large degree comes down to novel that

562
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: you put yourself in a place, an environment, perhaps a culture,

563
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: that differs from what you deal with every day. Uh.

564
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: And and this is where you can feel, you know,

565
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: this enthralling, exhilarating, overpowering, and at times even frightening sensation

566
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: of novelty. It is, it is. I don't think it's

567
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: a stretch at all to say this is an altered

568
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: mental state. Sure, yeah. And one doesn't achieve this, this

569
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: particular altered state through the consumption of a potion or

570
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: a mushroom or or the via the physical alteration of

571
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: brain tissue. No, you achieve it by traveling from one

572
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: environment to another, uh, and then continuing to be human

573
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: along the way, and upon arrival endearing this altered state,

574
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: you might often find yourself functioning as a sponge, right,

575
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: soaking up information about your travel, destination or things along

576
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: the way, perhaps pouring yourself into the local museum or

577
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: historical site. And if this is is this is you?

578
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: It might be due to the role that novelty plays

579
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: in associative learning. I imagine a lot of us have

580
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: experienced or have been the uh this or in other people,

581
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: or have been the person who comes back from a

582
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: unique trip, and it's just rattling off, you know, endless

583
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: facts about the experience for everyone, about this site, they

584
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: saw this museum, they they uh, they visited that sort

585
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah, it becomes uh, there's a risk when

586
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: you travel somewhere that the place you most recently traveled

587
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: becomes your point of comparison for everything, every every topic

588
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: of conversation relates back to the most recent vacation you took. Uh.

589
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: And I, I shamefully will admit I've been of that

590
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: frame of mind before. And I think that happens because

591
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,239
Speaker 1: of because essentially, the prominence of a travel experience in

592
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: the memory enables the availability heuristic. You know, the the

593
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: availability heuristic is, uh, the the idea where um concepts

594
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: and memories and ideas that are more accessible in memory

595
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: are overrepresented in our view of the world. So if

596
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: we're looking for comparisons to whatever we're talking about, whatever

597
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: is just most prominent in your memory is going to

598
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: be the thing that's most likely to facilitate those comparisons. Now,

599
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: speaking on memory, here that there, of course are multiple

600
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: different forms of memory at work in the brain, and

601
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: different brain states can enhance certain forms of memory. Associated learning,

602
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: which we're gonna be talking about here is the ability

603
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: need to learn and remember the relationship between unrelated items,

604
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: and we've we've known about this, this, this particular relationship

605
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: between novelty and associated learning since the nineteen sixties. UH,

606
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: the idea that novelty can enhance associated learning. One key finding,

607
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: it seems, stems from from twelve though. The University of

608
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: Toronto's Dr Catherine Duncan used f m RI I to

609
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: identify how the brain triggers memory states, and she identified

610
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: a brain ridge and region that detects novelty and demonstrated

611
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: that novelty detection acts like a switch, impacting how the

612
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: brain learns and remembers. Now, she's quick to remind everyone

613
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: this is not the only switch. Memory is complex and

614
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot we still need to study and understand.

615
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: But this is one example where it seems like we

616
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: can we can draw a line between one type of

617
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: of brain state and UH and a change in the

618
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: way we we learn, and there the way we form

619
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 1: new memories. The process here involves the dopamine system, which

620
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: involved in associative learning. While this has been previously suspected,

621
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: it looks like there was some, uh, some additional evidence

622
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: for this that came out in February of this year

623
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: from the Flanders Institute of Biotechnology, publishing the journal Neuron

624
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: that took a closer to look at how this might work. So,

625
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: working with mice, they found that dopamine neurons were activated

626
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: by new smells but not by familiar ones. So this

627
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: enhanced learning, and they were able to stimulate or block

628
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: dopamine activation in familiar settings, then to alter learning in

629
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: the mice, slowing learning down or speeding it up. Now,

630
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: part of the take home here is that we might

631
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: be able to learn better by shaking up our routine. Um,

632
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: I feel like I engage in this, or at least

633
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: I would engage in this in a pretty pandemic world

634
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: where if I, you know, I'd be working on something

635
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: and then I would I need to change locations. I'd

636
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: go to a different coffee shop or something, you know,

637
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,959
Speaker 1: somewhere else, some new environment where I could work while

638
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, sort of casually observing foot traffic or or

639
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: where I actually I also really enjoy working on my

640
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: front porch watching people and trains go by, that sort

641
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: of thing. Uh, there's something about putting yourself in a

642
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: novel environment that seems to help with with forming these associations.

643
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: But this particular study also sheds light on some of

644
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: what's happening when we engage in travel, how and why

645
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: we record strong new memories, and why a vacation may seem,

646
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: in retrospect, a fuller example of life than our day

647
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: to day Yeah. I mean, so there are multiple things here.

648
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: I think we've touched on the podcast before, at least

649
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: the anecdotal evidence that people seem to find that on

650
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 1: a vacation or during some kind of travel or major

651
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: change to their day to day routine, it's easier to

652
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: establish new habits or to change existing habits. That's kind

653
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: of an interesting thing like people don't usually think of,

654
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: like the vacation is a good time to start a diet,

655
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: but it might actually work. Oh yeah, yeah, I've I've

656
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: seen this pointed out before, like if you're if you

657
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: want to change up your your schedule, start doing it

658
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: on vacation and in a new location. Yeah, And I

659
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: think that so this relates to memory obviously, and and

660
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: the idea of associate of learning is very much based

661
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: in memory. But another thing about memory that this makes

662
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: me think of is we've talked previously on the show

663
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: about I believe it was the neuroscientist David Eagleman who

664
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: had pointed out this research about the different perception of

665
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: time in the moment versus in retrospect and how that

666
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: relates to novelty. And the idea was that in the

667
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: moment experiences that our novel tend to go by really fast.

668
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: They feel like they're happening really fast, and then they're over.

669
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: And you probably know this from experience. It seems like,

670
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: you know, your your regular routine day might kind of

671
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: drag on, especially if you're doing something kind of repetitive

672
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: and boring, but your vacation where you're doing a lot

673
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: of novel different stuff just kind of flies by. It

674
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: feels like it's over in an instant. But then once

675
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: you get into the retrospective mindset and you're representing those

676
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: time periods in your memory, suddenly the reverse is true,

677
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: where the experience that's full of novelty feels like it

678
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: lasted a long time and a lot of stuff happened

679
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: in it. It's like it spreads out and expands in

680
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: your memory, while the while the period of sameness where

681
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: you didn't experience a lot of novelty, contracts down to

682
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: a point and there's almost nothing to remember about it. Yeah.

683
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, there's nothing like going on vacation to

684
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: fully engage in the weirdness of time. Um. In terms

685
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: of novelty, uh, I think Eagleman might have been the

686
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: one to refer to us as as novelty junkies. Uh.

687
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: And it could be misquoting him on that, but I

688
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: have that that association is in my head for some reason. UM.

689
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: I also ran across a book titled Satisfaction, in which

690
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: the author Gregory Burns, points out that even if you

691
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: don't personally like a novelty, if you're the type of

692
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: person who you know you feel very strongly that you

693
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: like a strict routine, you don't want any novelty thrown in.

694
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: You may not personally like it, but your brain is

695
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: because when we engage in novelty, we kind of go

696
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: into probe mode and to explore mode. Our brains tune

697
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: up to absorb and process the information we're hit with.

698
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: And so I think that's really interesting. It's like, take

699
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: that and think back to this, uh sort of flow

700
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 1: chart of how we engage with environmental stimuli, you know, um,

701
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: how you know it's going to be that that novel stimuli,

702
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: those novel sensations that are gonna end up sort of

703
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: supercharging this loop of emotional response and cognitive response and

704
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: then feeding into the formation of these associated memories. And

705
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: I think that also helps us better understand two of

706
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: the the the offsided benefits of travel broadened horizons and

707
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: self exploration. Well, yeah, this brings us back to the

708
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: anthropological framework that we're talking about earlier. Now that was

709
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: specifically in the context of Christian pilgrimage and not travel

710
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: more broadly, but I think it probably relates to things

711
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: that are going on often, if not always, in travel

712
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: more broadly, Which is the the idea that it is, Uh,

713
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: it places you at the threshold. It doesn't necessarily put

714
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: you through it, but it places you at the threshold

715
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: of personal change and transformation. And I think that there's

716
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: some relationship here between that cultural observation and the idea

717
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: of what's going on in the brain when we experience

718
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: a lot of novelty that we're sort of primed for

719
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: associate of learning that we can form new habits, and

720
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: the formation of new habits, while it doesn't sound all

721
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: that sexy when phrase that way, is the basis of

722
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: the change of the self. All right, Well, on that note,

723
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but when we

724
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,240
Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk a little bit about

725
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: the idea of travel overload. Than alright, we're back. So, Joe,

726
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: I know you like um Italian horror films. Oh yeah,

727
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: have you Have you ever seen a little film titled

728
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: Stindall Syndrome. No, I have not seen the whole thing,

729
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: but I have watched the scene that you linked me

730
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: to in it, which involves which involves a character kissing

731
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: a fish on the mouth. And while I've heard that

732
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: the movie is not that great overall, even though I

733
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: do love some Italian horror, uh, this fish kissing scene

734
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: is extraordinary. Yeah. This was film The Stendahl Syndrome by

735
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 1: Dario Argento of Suspiria of Fame and countless other films

736
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: in which weird stuff, that stuff happens and people are stabbed. Right,

737
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 1: this is very much in the genre of of weird

738
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: stuff happens and people were stabbed, except it has this

739
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: this weird hook with Stendahl syndrome and which in this

740
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: in the film, you have this character played by Asia

741
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: Argento who experiences this overwhelming sensory experience when she engages

742
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: with fabulous works of art. Um. I believe that she's

743
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: in the movie. She's looking at landscape with the Fall

744
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: of Icarus, and so has this there's this dream like

745
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: sequence in which she falls into the painting and falls

746
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: into the ocean. You know that the Icarus would have

747
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: plunged into And is that by Broygal? Yeah, I think

748
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: it's broke of the elder and uh. And so she

749
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: falls into the water and then inexplicitly she kisses a fish.

750
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: So it's a it's it's a it's a. It's a

751
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: noteworthy uh scene in uh in in in the film,

752
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: for sure, but it also does a link into this

753
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: idea of Stendahl syndrome that is in an actual, at

754
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: least alleged um UH phenomenon that occurs. It's named for

755
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: the French author Stendahl, who wrote such works as The

756
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: Scarlet and Black and he he originally wrote about a

757
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: case of what we might call extreme travel overload. Uh.

758
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: This was from his book Naples and Florence, a journey

759
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: from Milan to Reggio, and he talks about emerging on

760
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: a on a porch uh and and being seized with

761
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: his fierce palpitation of his heart, feeling like his life

762
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: had just dried up and then uh and feeling like

763
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 1: it was just gonna collapse, like just physically overcome from

764
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: having visited a particular site. And and this kind of

765
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: this idea that was really um sort of drawn out

766
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: and and certainly was given the name Standal syndrome by

767
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: an Italian psychiatrist Graziella Magarini who who wrote about this

768
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: in her nine book UH the Stendhal Syndrome, which defined

769
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 1: it is a complex process quote not intellectual, but sensitive

770
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: and easily susceptible to emotions, so essentially a kind of

771
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: sensory overload um. And and it can apparently result in

772
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: a number of different symptoms breathlessness, panic attacks, faintness, temporary psychosis.

773
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: Even all of this brought on via exposure to great

774
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: works of art, generally the sort of great works of

775
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: art you would find in a museum in a destination

776
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: UH city, now I would be shocked if um, just

777
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: because of the interesting and sort of rome antic nature

778
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: of the syndrome. If it's I don't know, legitimacy or

779
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 1: or clinical characterization has not been somewhat controversial or questioned

780
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: at some point. Yeah, that that is my understanding of it.

781
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: I think it's it's one of these ideas that's certainly

782
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: snazzy and um and and appeals to sort of the

783
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: storytelling sensibilities UH that we have, though at the same time,

784
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: I don't know there seemed to be enough stories of it.

785
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: I feel like there is a there there is something

786
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: going on here UM which will perhaps unravel here. Now

787
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: there are other related uh alleged syndromes as well, or

788
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: one for instances Reuben syndrome. UH. This is the name

789
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: given for an erotically charged activity that breaks out after

790
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: or even daring viewings of works by old masters, such

791
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: as Peter Paul Reuben's. So I don't know about that.

792
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: I've never I don't think I've experienced or or witnessed

793
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 1: that going on anytime I've seen people looking at art

794
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: in an art museum, But who knows, maybe they're going

795
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: around the corner is Rubens the painter, where like just

796
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: everybody is just majorly thick, just like awesome, Like everybody's

797
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: got huge butts and they look amazing. Uh yeah, I

798
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: think that would be a fair description of of of

799
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: Ruben's work. Um yeah, it certainly there is a kind

800
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: of an erotic charge to it. Uh. Now, where I

801
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: think we really get here into the travel aspects of

802
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: this whole scenario is that there's a version of this

803
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: and more travel centric version. Uh that is summed up

804
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: in the idea of Jerusalem syndrome, in which tourists have

805
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: been said to experience psychosis while visiting holy sites in

806
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: the city of Jerusalem, and there have been similar accounts

807
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: related to travel to Mecca, holy sites in Spain, etcetera.

808
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 1: So it's not I don't want to make it sound

809
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: like it's just Jerusalem specific, but the people who came

810
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: up with that term, we're largely looking at data regarding

811
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,720
Speaker 1: visitors to Jerusalem who were there for, you know, essentially

812
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: out of a sense of religious pilgrimage. Again, I think

813
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: one of the big we kind of have to come

814
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: back to that chart and think again about travel and senses,

815
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: you know, like imagine we can you don't even have

816
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: to imagine a lot of us can think back on

817
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: examples where we ourselves traveled somewhere and got to see

818
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: a work of art or particular site something that that

819
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: was indeed the destination, and and you you build it

820
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: up in your mind, right, you have a lot of

821
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: reasons to to want to experience it, cultural or maybe

822
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,240
Speaker 1: perhaps it has to do with with your political sensibilities

823
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: or your overall worldview, like you really need to see

824
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: this thing and connect with it and witness it. On

825
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: top of that, sometimes you encounter a work of art

826
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: and you realize, oh, I had no idea it was

827
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: that small or um or or perhaps the lighting is

828
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 1: weird and it doesn't actually come off as well in person.

829
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: I feel like I had that situation with Buckland's um

830
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: The Island of of of Death um. The you know,

831
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: we have the weird trees and it's this uh, this

832
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: very islived dad, I'm sorry, that's the name of the painting. UM.

833
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: And I think there are a few different versions of

834
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: it at very evocative painting. But when I saw it,

835
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: I think at the matter, I saw a version of

836
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: it the mat There was something about the way it

837
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: was lid and the way that the dark aspects of

838
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: the painting came off like. I didn't find it displeasurable

839
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: and an experience. On the other hand, there are plenty

840
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: of other works that you just don't get the scale

841
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: unless you were there in front of it. I've had

842
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: both of those experiences looking at art. I've I've seen

843
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: things that I've seen before, like digitally represented, when I

844
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: saw them in person, I found them disappointing, and I've

845
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: and I've had it on the other end. On the

846
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: other end, one that really stuck with me where was

847
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: in the Louver the paintings of Eugene Delacroix, the French painter,

848
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 1: who I had seen some of his works before, just

849
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: like you know images on the Internet, and they never

850
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: really stood out to me. But for some reason when

851
00:47:57,719 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: I saw them in person and I was like, wow,

852
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't stop looking at him. Oh yeah. I feel

853
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: this way about the works of Odali, for example. I

854
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: feel like his his work is his is oftentimes best

855
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: experienced large scale, though he has of course some works

856
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 1: that are actually smaller than you expect um. Likewise, one

857
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: of my favorite painters is Irving Norman, and he often

858
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: painted these very large pieces, and it's just something about

859
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: being there with it. And likewise, when we're dealing with

860
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 1: with other aspects of travel, like you think of things

861
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: like the Grand Canyon, like I've talked on the show

862
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 1: before about like seeing the being there at the Grand

863
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: Canyon is just uh, it's it's an experience that that

864
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: cannot be um you know, properly housed and just you know,

865
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: looking at a picture of reading about it. Like there's

866
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: the experience of being in a place of of of

867
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: of of taking it in and just being a part

868
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 1: of that environment or in the case of historically significant

869
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: locations temple cities, etcetera, like to actually be there for

870
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: this play used to suddenly be physically real. You know,

871
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: I can I can see how that could be overpowering

872
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: to the senses because it is engaging the senses and

873
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: your uh in your your your your your cognitive and

874
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: your emotional processes uh to such a high level. You know.

875
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: For me, that connects to a feeling that I've often

876
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: had throughout my life and I've tried to explain to

877
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: other people, and I think I have just failed to

878
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: adequately communicated. Maybe I'm about to fail again, But it's

879
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: this peculiar emotion that I associate primarily with two different activities.

880
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: One of them is successfully following instructions to UH to

881
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: accomplish a mechanical task, such as like repairing an object

882
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 1: that I have no previous knowledge about how to fix,

883
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: and the other is arriving successfully at a location that

884
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: I've read about before. Both times, I have this experience

885
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: of of sudden, overwhelming kind of rectitude with the universe,

886
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: Like I feel like, ah, the external world is real,

887
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: if that makes any sense at all. It's it's a

888
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: powerful emotion in the moment. UH. And I don't know

889
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: if this is something that other people really experience, but

890
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: it's something that's hugely operative in my mind and in

891
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: my life. No, I think I've I've I've experienced something

892
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: like this as well. I mean, it's it's kind of

893
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: like the on one level of the manifestation of the

894
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: inner world, you know, research becomes real, and on the

895
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: other hand, like this is what this is one of

896
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: the things that we have evolved to do, you know,

897
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: it's like the finding of things the uh. You know,

898
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 1: it's like we we you know, we can read about

899
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 1: these all day and it's satisfying, and it's fulfilling, but

900
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: to actually you know, hit the ground and and actually

901
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, find a particular location or thing like that

902
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: that engages us on another level and engages the full

903
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: capabilities of our senses. Now, if you're if you're wondering,

904
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: okay Stindall syndrome, Jerusalem syndrome, should I be worried about

905
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: my senses being overloaded? Uh? The next time I'm I'm

906
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: able to travel, I would say, based on the information

907
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: we're looking at here, Uh, you know, I would not

908
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: freak out about this. Basically, pre existing psychological conditions seem

909
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: to be a major factor in most of these cases

910
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: of people being overwhelmed by the sights and sounds of travel. Again,

911
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: if we think of travel as an altered mental state,

912
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: and if we factor in potential travel stresses and travel anxiety,

913
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: we can easily see how travel to a given location

914
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 1: could trigger a slip into an overwhelming mental state. And

915
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: the stress, you know, of course, would would certainly be

916
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: capable of triggering a pre existing condition and causing it

917
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: to flare up. Yeah, I mean, going back to something

918
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, I mean, like stress is a big

919
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: part of travel. It's not the part that we tend

920
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: to focus on in our memories because we think about

921
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: all the good things about it. But like, yeah, stress

922
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: is almost always going to be there, and that's going

923
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: to be a key factor for exacerbating underlying psychological issues. Yeah.

924
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: And I was looking at a two eighteen Columbia University

925
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: these Mailment School of Public Health study that showed that

926
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: traveling a great deal for work, so like two weeks

927
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: or more per month was capable of inducing enhanced depression

928
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: and anxiety. Now, certainly that's business travel, that's not non

929
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: economic travel like we're talking about here, but I think

930
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: it's still underlines like you know, when we when we're traveling, uh,

931
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: you know, we are uh, you know, we are engaging

932
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 1: in stress. It is a it is ultimately a stressful

933
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: um endeavor, even if you feel like you really have

934
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: a handle on it. There's also, you know, interesting research

935
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: along the lines of sleep, and of course sleep has

936
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: an impact on our overall mental stability. Uh. I think

937
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: we've talked about the first night effect on the show

938
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: before and which one tends to experience worse sleep on

939
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 1: a first night in a new location, and studies have

940
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: shown that this seems to be related to enhanced activity

941
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: in the default mode network during these nights. So travel

942
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: for those seeking the limits of human experience, pain and

943
00:52:55,719 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: pleasure indivisible. Yeah, I mean it's something that keep in mind. Um,

944
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: I think it ultimately like it just it. I know

945
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: in the past, when I've when I've traveled, you know,

946
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: with with my family, I was trying to remind myself

947
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: that that first day of travel is going to it's

948
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: gonna be stressful, it's gonna have there are gonna be

949
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: some flare ups and you just got to try and

950
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: you know, maintain some relative level of cool and uh

951
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: and flow with it. Well, maybe it's the time that

952
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: you're directly on route to your destination where it's most

953
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 1: important to keep the spirit of Lautsu or of the

954
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 1: child and the st vincent Malay before having her her

955
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: mother dash her dreams of exploration. Has to have that mindset. Yeah. Yeah, indeed,

956
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: you know, to to sort of remind yourself that it

957
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: is about the journey, not the arrival. I guess the

958
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: thing is, it's hard to remind yourself of that when

959
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 1: you say stuck in airports somewhere, like it's about the journey. Oh,

960
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: I guess I'll have a cent a bun. It's it's

961
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 1: not quite as rewarding. I guess it's about the journey

962
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: of standing in line for coffee. Yeah, so travel again.

963
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: I think it's important to to remind ourselves that it

964
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: is it is an altered state, and it is h

965
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 1: and and our senses play so heavily into the journey

966
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: and into our experience of the arrival, along with our

967
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,399
Speaker 1: various you know, emotional expectations, you know, bringing it back

968
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: to the present circumstances of the world and and all

969
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: of the stuff going on right now. One thing I

970
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: think I would remind people of is that I think

971
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 1: you can get, you know, if you if you're feeling

972
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: this overwhelming desire to travel right now, but you're also

973
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: trying to be realistic about all the risks and stuff.

974
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: I think you can get a lot of the benefits

975
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: of travel just with activities that actually do remain relatively

976
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: close to home, you know, even near your house. There

977
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: were probably places you can figure out to go where

978
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: you can experience something novel, but you don't have to

979
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: travel long distances or be amongst crowds. You can stay

980
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: with you know, your household and family members and that

981
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Oh yeah, absolutely, and and some households,

982
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: and of course I'm speaking to uh, you know, sort

983
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: of a neighborhood environment here, not like a really dense

984
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: urban environment, but uh, you know, there are cases where

985
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 1: people have are doing what they can to sort of enhance, uh,

986
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 1: the you know, the travel sensations of just walking around

987
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: the neighborhood, be it decorating for Halloween or Christmas several

988
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: months early, um, doing kind of unique things with their

989
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: yard or with signage. You know. Uh so I do.

990
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: I do feel like the that that spirit you know,

991
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: can be found even during a what is ultimately a

992
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: challenging time for those who seek novelty. Obviously, we'd love

993
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: to hear from everyone out there, because we know we

994
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: have some extensive travelers that listen to our show. We'd

995
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: love to hear your take on all of this. How

996
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 1: your senses are engaged during your travels, has it ever

997
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: become overwhelming? Uh that sort of thing, and how you're

998
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: you're you're coping today. In the meantime, if you would

999
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: like to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow

1000
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: your mind, you even find us wherever you get your podcasts.

1001
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: Wherever that happens to be. We just asked that you

1002
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: help us out. Leave us a nice review, leave us

1003
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: some stars, um subscribe to the show if you haven't already,

1004
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,479
Speaker 1: and of course share the show with friends. Just tell

1005
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: people about the show. That helps us as well. Huge

1006
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

1007
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

1008
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,760
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1009
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hi,

1010
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,919
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1011
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

1012
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My

1013
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1014
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. B