WEBVTT - John Graunt

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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<v Speaker 1>of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly

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<v Speaker 1>Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So today's subject is

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<v Speaker 1>a person who's been on my list for a minute,

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<v Speaker 1>not a really commonly known name, but whose work is

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<v Speaker 1>probably impacting the life of every single person listening in

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<v Speaker 1>one way or another. He did this work nearly four

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<v Speaker 1>hundred years ago, but it really changed the way that

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<v Speaker 1>people perceived population and mortality by measuring it, because that

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<v Speaker 1>changes the outcome. We are talking about John Grant, who

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<v Speaker 1>was a shopkeeper in London who, through both personal connections

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<v Speaker 1>and a desire to just kind of follow his own

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<v Speaker 1>curiosity which I love to a rather grand result, became

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<v Speaker 1>very well respected among the city's most revered intellectuals. Work

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<v Speaker 1>gave rise to the field of demography and epidemiology, and

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<v Speaker 1>his work could be categorized as statistical analysis, although the

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<v Speaker 1>word statistics didn't even exist for another one hundred years

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<v Speaker 1>after he died. But that's who we're talking about today.

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<v Speaker 1>So John Grant was born April twenty fourth, sixteen twenty

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<v Speaker 1>in London, England, to Henry and Mary Grant, who raised

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<v Speaker 1>John and their other children. There may have been seven

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<v Speaker 1>other children raised the mall As Puritans at the end

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<v Speaker 1>of the seventeenth century. Antiquarian and philosopher John Aubrey included

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<v Speaker 1>Grant in his book Brief Lives, which covered notable seventeenth

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<v Speaker 1>century figures, and he quite charmingly describes the start of

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<v Speaker 1>Grant's life this way quote was born twenty four d

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<v Speaker 1>aprilis at the seven Stars in Burton Lane, London, in

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<v Speaker 1>the parish of Saint Michael's Cornhill, an hour before eight

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<v Speaker 1>o'clock on a Monday morning, the sign being in the

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<v Speaker 1>nine degree of Gemini that day at twelve o'clock. Anno

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<v Speaker 1>Domino sixteen twenty. Yeah, that Aubrey account will discuss a

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<v Speaker 1>good bit throughout this journey. But reading it is very

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<v Speaker 1>fun because it is, you know, old timy language. But

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<v Speaker 1>also I don't know, he just has a flare for

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<v Speaker 1>freezing that makes me chuckle. I like that the date

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<v Speaker 1>of his birth was in Latin. The rest of it's

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<v Speaker 1>not Latin, but just that part. That's kind of how

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<v Speaker 1>all of Brief Lives go. There's a little Latin sprinkled throughout.

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<v Speaker 1>For insussient flair. Although today Grant is pretty much always

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned as being a statistician or something related, that is

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<v Speaker 1>very far from where he started. This is going to

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<v Speaker 1>get into holly pedantry just a little, so bear with me.

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<v Speaker 1>He is described as a draper in some accounts and

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<v Speaker 1>a haberdasher in others. These are similar roles, but they're

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<v Speaker 1>actually different. A draper would have sold fabric for garment construction,

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<v Speaker 1>whereas a haberdash would have sold sewing notions, so things

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<v Speaker 1>like thread, buttons, et cetera. This is, of course also

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<v Speaker 1>different from the way the word haberdasher is used today

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<v Speaker 1>in North America, where it usually means somebody who sells

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<v Speaker 1>men's wear. In this case, this would not have been

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<v Speaker 1>a men'swear specific enterprise. So Grant, we know, would have

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<v Speaker 1>been selling sewing supplies of some type intended for garment construction,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's not one hundred percent clear if it was

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<v Speaker 1>fabric or notions. The Aubrey biography calls him a haberdasher,

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<v Speaker 1>noting he was quote haberdasher of small wares, but was

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<v Speaker 1>free of the draper's company. That small amount of words

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<v Speaker 1>just confuses things more because haberdashers and drapers in London

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<v Speaker 1>at this time already had completely separate guilds. However, Aubrey

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<v Speaker 1>seems to have been incorrect about Grant's guild status. John's father,

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<v Speaker 1>Henry Grant, was a member of the Worshipful Company of Drapers,

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<v Speaker 1>having been admitted in sixteen fourteen, and John apprenticed with

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<v Speaker 1>his father. According to Henry Conner, writing for the Journal

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<v Speaker 1>of Medical Biography in twenty twenty two, John Grant quote

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<v Speaker 1>was admitted by patrimony to the freedom of the Draper's

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<v Speaker 1>Company when twenty one, and granted the livery when thirty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>So for context, freedom admission indicates that a tradesperson is

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<v Speaker 1>set on the track to becoming a full member, and

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<v Speaker 1>then when they are granted livery, they have met certain

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<v Speaker 1>requirements and submitted a formal application. So it does appear

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<v Speaker 1>that Grant was a full member in the Draper's Guild. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>i e. Not a haberd usher. Tracy also pointed out

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<v Speaker 1>that that wording of Aubrey's could be confusing and mean

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<v Speaker 1>that he was a freeman within the Draper's Company. But

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't seem like that's what he's getting at. I

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<v Speaker 1>could I'm wrong in my interpretation. We do know that

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<v Speaker 1>Grant got married the same year that he was admitted

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<v Speaker 1>to the Draper's Guild as a full member, so he

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<v Speaker 1>married a seventeen year old named Mary Scott. We know

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<v Speaker 1>very little about their marriage, although according to Aubrey, they

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<v Speaker 1>had two children who lived to adulthood, a son and

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<v Speaker 1>a daughter, and two other kids who died in infancy.

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<v Speaker 1>Those children were also daughters. The only details we know

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<v Speaker 1>about the surviving children also come from that Aubrey biography,

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<v Speaker 1>so a little bit difficult to substantiate. He states that

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<v Speaker 1>their son died as an adult in Persia and that

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<v Speaker 1>the daughter became a nun. Grant became very active in

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<v Speaker 1>his community and served in a number of civic roles,

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<v Speaker 1>including on London's Common Council and his later years, he

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<v Speaker 1>was also active in infrastructure projects like developing a canal

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<v Speaker 1>that brought water into the city. As part of his

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<v Speaker 1>standing as a citizen and a community leader, Grant was

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<v Speaker 1>also a member of London's Trained Bands. This was a

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<v Speaker 1>militia made up of homeowners within the city that served

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<v Speaker 1>as a defense force serving under the Lord Mayor. Was

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<v Speaker 1>often addressed as captain in various accounts of his life,

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<v Speaker 1>suggesting he attained that rank in the militia. Aubrey, who

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<v Speaker 1>knew Grant and was his friend, describes him as a

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<v Speaker 1>man who was well liked, pleasant and smart. In addition

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<v Speaker 1>to John Aubrey, a wide array of impressive friends clustered

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<v Speaker 1>around Grant, and many of them are well known today.

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<v Speaker 1>Samuel Peeps mentions Grant in his diaries, noting on April twentieth,

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen sixty three, quote, So to my office the remaining

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<v Speaker 1>part of the morning till towards noon, and then to

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<v Speaker 1>mister Grant's. There saw his prints, which he showed me,

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<v Speaker 1>and indeed are the best collection of any things almost

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<v Speaker 1>that ever I saw there. Being the prince of most

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<v Speaker 1>of the greatest houses, churches and antiquities in Italy and France,

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<v Speaker 1>and brave cuts, I had not time to look them

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<v Speaker 1>over as I ought, and which I will take time

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<v Speaker 1>hereafter to do, and therefore left them and home to dinner.

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<v Speaker 1>He became friendly with Sir Benjamin Rudyard, who was a

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<v Speaker 1>poet and a politician in Parliament. Painter John Hales was

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<v Speaker 1>another friend who would come to be known for his

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<v Speaker 1>portraits of Lady Diana Russell, Duchess of Bedford Lady Anne Russell,

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<v Speaker 1>Countess of Bedford, and Samuel Peeps, and several members of

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<v Speaker 1>Peeps's family. Another artist friend was Samuel Cooper, considered to

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<v Speaker 1>be maybe the best portrait miniature painter of the sixteen hundreds.

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<v Speaker 1>But the most well known of Grant's friends was William Petty. Petty,

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<v Speaker 1>who was three years younger than Grant, was a man

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<v Speaker 1>of many interests and abilities. He was a doctor, a

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<v Speaker 1>professor of both anatomy and music, and a surveyor, and

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<v Speaker 1>alongside his good friend John Grant, he became interested in

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<v Speaker 1>using available data to gain insight into the world around him.

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<v Speaker 1>But before that the two men were already very close.

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<v Speaker 1>Grant had helped Petty get his music professorship at Gresham College.

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<v Speaker 1>Petty gave Grant his power of attorney. In sixteen sixty

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<v Speaker 1>they purchased proper together on Lothbury Street, the short street

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<v Speaker 1>in London that was popular with professionals. This land is

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<v Speaker 1>now occupied by the Bank of England. Grant was, through

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<v Speaker 1>various groups and friendships, tied to a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>city's intellectuals and leaders. Coming up, we will talk about

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<v Speaker 1>how Grant's own curiosity led him to start looking at

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<v Speaker 1>death statistics, but first we will pause for a sponsor break.

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<v Speaker 1>For some reason which remains unclear, Grant became really interested

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<v Speaker 1>in London's death records. They would have been commonly available,

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<v Speaker 1>and as a merchant, information about the shifts in the

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<v Speaker 1>city's population would have been important to John Grant and

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<v Speaker 1>to others. These accounts of the deaths in the city

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<v Speaker 1>have their own interesting stories. So we're gonna jump backwards

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit to the fifteen twenties. Starting in fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>twenty seven, the bills of mortality, which were simply lists

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<v Speaker 1>of the dead, began to be collected in London. The

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<v Speaker 1>oldest surviving bill of mortality that we know of is

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<v Speaker 1>from fifteen thirty two, and the gathering of this information

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<v Speaker 1>was done for the most part by elderly women of

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<v Speaker 1>the various parishes of the city. They were called searchers.

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<v Speaker 1>When someone died, allowed bell was rung to summon the searchers,

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<v Speaker 1>and a pair of them would go to the house

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<v Speaker 1>where the bell had come from to observe the body.

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<v Speaker 1>They would note each death, collect those names into lists,

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<v Speaker 1>which were submitted to the parish clerks, who then entered

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<v Speaker 1>them into the official record and also publish the list.

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<v Speaker 1>The names were not included in the list. The publicly

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<v Speaker 1>available records normally listed the parish and just the number

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<v Speaker 1>of deaths. And initially this job was really just to

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<v Speaker 1>determine if people had died of the plague so that

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<v Speaker 1>they could track that, But over time the searchers started

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<v Speaker 1>to include causes of death other than the plague, even

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<v Speaker 1>though they didn't really have medical trainings. They were kind

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<v Speaker 1>of going on a combo of common sense and vibes. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>if I remember correctly, we talked about these searchers in

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<v Speaker 1>our episode on Rickets. Yes, Rickets will come up later. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it was one of the reasons that it was like,

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<v Speaker 1>we have these references to Rickets in these lists, but

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<v Speaker 1>we don't really know for sure if that was actually Ricketts.

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<v Speaker 1>So for a long time these lists were submitted on

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a random basis, but toward the end of

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<v Speaker 1>the sixteenth century, in fifteen ninety two, a set schedule

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<v Speaker 1>was established for their regular submission. At the time, the

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<v Speaker 1>cause of death also started to be recorded, with a

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<v Speaker 1>summary count of how many people in a given parish

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<v Speaker 1>died from it. This was because London experienced a high

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<v Speaker 1>death rate starting that year, as the city struggled through

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<v Speaker 1>a plague outbreak that shut down the theaters and the

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<v Speaker 1>public houses. When the plague began, the city had an

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<v Speaker 1>estimated one hundred and fifty thousand people. Roughly ten percent

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<v Speaker 1>of the population died during this outbreak, but once death

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<v Speaker 1>numbers started to drop, the bills of mortality became less frequent.

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<v Speaker 1>Over time, they did add in christenings, and they tracked

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<v Speaker 1>population growth through surviving infants. Then another plague hit the

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<v Speaker 1>city in sixteen oh three, just as James the sixth

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<v Speaker 1>of Scotland was taking on the additional title of James

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<v Speaker 1>the First of England and Ireland, and the newly established monarch,

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<v Speaker 1>in an effort to get the city through this plague crisis,

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<v Speaker 1>put out a book of orders regarding how various aspects

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<v Speaker 1>of the plague were to be dealt with. Some of

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<v Speaker 1>this we're going to talk about on Friday, and he

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<v Speaker 1>reinstated a regular schedule for the bills of mortality. Under

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<v Speaker 1>the new orders, searchers had to submit their lists on

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<v Speaker 1>Tuesdays and on Thursday mornings. The complete lists were made

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<v Speaker 1>available to the public, with copies available for a penny,

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<v Speaker 1>or people could get an annual subscription for four pennies,

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<v Speaker 1>which seems like a great deal. There was also an

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<v Speaker 1>annual report made that compiled the entire year's data that

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<v Speaker 1>was always published on the Thursday before Christmas every year.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't until sixteen twenty nine that the report separated

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<v Speaker 1>out deaths by male and female members of the population,

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<v Speaker 1>so for some example numbers, the report for all of

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen twenty five noted that the parish of Bennett's Grace

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<v Speaker 1>Church had forty eight deaths, sixteen from plague. The parish

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<v Speaker 1>of Martin's a Ludgate had two hundred and fifty four

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<v Speaker 1>deaths one hundred and sixty four from plague, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>The sixteen thirty two report that compiled the numbers by

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<v Speaker 1>cause of death listed six hundred and twenty eight deaths

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<v Speaker 1>from old age, one thousand, seven hundred ninety seven from consumption,

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<v Speaker 1>thirty eight executions of which thirteen were pressed to death,

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<v Speaker 1>thirty eight from purples and spotted fever, and six as

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<v Speaker 1>quotes dead in the street and starved. There are of

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<v Speaker 1>course more entries in both of these sample lists, as

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<v Speaker 1>well as other lists, but this gifts just a sense

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<v Speaker 1>of how basic these numbers were and in addition to

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<v Speaker 1>that simplicity, there was also a question regarding the accuracy

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<v Speaker 1>of the numbers. Yeah, we'll talk about that qu a

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<v Speaker 1>bit more. When Grant decided that he wanted to make

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<v Speaker 1>an earnest study of this material, he only worked with

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<v Speaker 1>the consistently published list from late sixteen oh three on.

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<v Speaker 1>There might actually be a minor bit of scandal regarding

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<v Speaker 1>his work with these records. According to Robert Cargan, writing

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<v Speaker 1>for the Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied

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<v Speaker 1>Sciences in nineteen sixty three, quote, it is unknown how

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<v Speaker 1>the publication of the bills fared under the Commonwealth. The

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<v Speaker 1>parish clerk's registers before sixteen sixty four are missing, having

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<v Speaker 1>been loaned to Grant for his studies and never returned.

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<v Speaker 1>I will say there is also a chunk kind of

0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 1>in the middle of that sixteen o three to sixteen

0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.360
<v Speaker 1>sixty when he was working, that he discarded because there

0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 1>was some inconsistency and irregularity in him. But in sixteen

0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.760
<v Speaker 1>sixty two Grant published his assessment of all of this information,

0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.479
<v Speaker 1>of which there's a lot. We read a tiny smattering,

0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.920
<v Speaker 1>but like pages and pages and pages of lists. The

0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.040
<v Speaker 1>book that he created out of all of this was

0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 1>natural and political observations made upon the Bills of Mortality.

0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.840
<v Speaker 1>It was the only book he ever published, but it

0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 1>became the foundation of a really significant shift in the

0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 1>way that people thought about population statistics. The inspiration for

0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.200
<v Speaker 1>this effort has been a matter of debate for centuries.

0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.200
<v Speaker 1>Often William Petty is credited with giving Grant the idea,

0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.800
<v Speaker 1>but every source that says so seems to be pulling

0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 1>from that John Aubrey biography, which we know might not

0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 1>always be accurate. Grant himself gave the reason he started

0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:55.040
<v Speaker 1>examining all the data in the preface to his book, quote,

0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.040
<v Speaker 1>having been born and bred in the city of London,

0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.960
<v Speaker 1>and having always observed the most of them who constantly

0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.200
<v Speaker 1>took in the weekly Bills of Mortality, made little other

0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.920
<v Speaker 1>use of them than to look at the foot how

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 1>the burials increased or decreased, and among the casualties, what

0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.080
<v Speaker 1>had happened rare and extraordinary in the week of the current,

0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.160
<v Speaker 1>so they might take the same as a text to

0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.440
<v Speaker 1>talk about in the next company and withal in the

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.520
<v Speaker 1>plague time, how the sickness increased or decreased, That so

0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.160
<v Speaker 1>the rich might judge of the necessity of their removal,

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:33.000
<v Speaker 1>and tradesmen might conjecture what doings they were like to

0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.640
<v Speaker 1>have in their respective dealings. Now I thought that the

0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:41.000
<v Speaker 1>wisdom of our city had certainly designed the laudable practice

0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.720
<v Speaker 1>of taking and distributing these accompts for other and greater

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 1>uses than those above mentioned, or at least that some

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.200
<v Speaker 1>other uses might be made of them. And thereupon, I,

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.680
<v Speaker 1>casting mine eye upon so many of the general bills

0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.920
<v Speaker 1>as next came to hand, I found encouragement from them

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 1>to look out all the bills I could, and to

0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.760
<v Speaker 1>be short to furnish myself with as much matter of

0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 1>that kind, even as the hall of the parish clerks

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.480
<v Speaker 1>could afford me the which when I had reduced to

0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.720
<v Speaker 1>into tables, so as to have a view of the

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 1>whole together, in order to the more ready comparing of

0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 1>one year season perish or other division of the city

0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:30.040
<v Speaker 1>with another. So to translate that somewhat stilted and run

0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.520
<v Speaker 1>on passage which Tracy just good naturedly worked her way through,

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.560
<v Speaker 1>uh Grant realized even people who read those reports every

0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.400
<v Speaker 1>week were kind of just doing so. To look at

0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the death totals so that they'd have something to talk

0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.240
<v Speaker 1>about or to see if they should get out of

0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.880
<v Speaker 1>town because things were getting dire with something. He had

0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.640
<v Speaker 1>thought that the city government might be using that information

0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.440
<v Speaker 1>in some way, but realized no one was really tracking

0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 1>the data in ways that might show patterns or change

0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.800
<v Speaker 1>over time, so he just decided to do that himself.

0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.520
<v Speaker 1>He does not mention his friend, Sir William Petty giving

0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.160
<v Speaker 1>him the idea, or in fact mention him at all.

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.359
<v Speaker 1>In the dedication of the book, Grant states that quote, now,

0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.879
<v Speaker 1>having I know not by what accident engaged my thoughts

0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.360
<v Speaker 1>upon the Bills of Mortality, I have presumed to sacrifice

0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:21.320
<v Speaker 1>these my small but first published labors unto your lordship.

0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.800
<v Speaker 1>We're going to talk about who that dedication is addressed

0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.239
<v Speaker 1>to in a bit, but the important thing is that

0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 1>Grant characterizes his interest in the bills as an accident

0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.760
<v Speaker 1>that he doesn't even remember. Grant also made it clear

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.120
<v Speaker 1>in his writing that he didn't want to go through

0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:41.160
<v Speaker 1>this exercise if it was not actually helpful in some way.

0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:46.640
<v Speaker 1>Quote moreover, finding some truths and not commonly believed opinions

0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.840
<v Speaker 1>to arise from my meditations upon these neglected papers. I

0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:55.080
<v Speaker 1>proceeded further to consider what benefit the knowledge of the

0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.000
<v Speaker 1>fame would bring to the world, that I might not

0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.719
<v Speaker 1>engage myself in idle and useless speculations, but present the

0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:07.159
<v Speaker 1>world with some real fruit from those airy blossoms. So

0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.359
<v Speaker 1>Grant really did want there to be some real world

0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 1>benefit from this whole exercise. And Grant lays out some

0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.720
<v Speaker 1>of the accuracy problems that we mentioned a few moments

0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.080
<v Speaker 1>ago in his writing, noting that the searchers who collected

0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:25.919
<v Speaker 1>this information may be quote, perhaps ignorant and careless in

0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.919
<v Speaker 1>their work, which apparently was a known problem. There was

0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.240
<v Speaker 1>not really a system of fact checking their numbers or

0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:37.680
<v Speaker 1>what information they included in their reports. Additionally, Grant notes

0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.879
<v Speaker 1>that these women would sometimes take favors or bribes to

0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.879
<v Speaker 1>record a cause of death as a less embarrassing or

0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:47.159
<v Speaker 1>scandalous one than the deceased family may have found it.

0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:51.000
<v Speaker 1>A significant example for this was syphilis that was recorded

0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.640
<v Speaker 1>in the bills under the title French pox, but according

0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.760
<v Speaker 1>to Grant, the searchers, after quote the mist of a

0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.520
<v Speaker 1>cup of ale and the bribe of a two grin fee,

0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:06.040
<v Speaker 1>would record that death instead as consumption. Another problem was

0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.439
<v Speaker 1>that the way these numbers were laid out left a

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:12.879
<v Speaker 1>lot of information to just be assumed or interpreted. Grant

0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.160
<v Speaker 1>noted that when a person was said to have died

0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:19.000
<v Speaker 1>of old age, it doesn't give information regarding what that

0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.800
<v Speaker 1>age was or whether there may have been some specific

0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:27.240
<v Speaker 1>condition involved. There are also no specifics of what qualifies

0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:31.560
<v Speaker 1>a child to be categorized as an infant. But Grant

0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.040
<v Speaker 1>seems to have come to the conclusion that the records

0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:38.320
<v Speaker 1>submitted by the searchers are probably relatively accurate in terms

0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.240
<v Speaker 1>of cause of death because he believes they consulted physicians

0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.359
<v Speaker 1>and also use their own judgment. But he also notes

0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.800
<v Speaker 1>that not all diseases present in obvious ways, so said

0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.639
<v Speaker 1>deaths might be difficult to report accurately regarding their cause.

0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.040
<v Speaker 1>He lays all this out to explain the way he's

0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.800
<v Speaker 1>approaching these numbers for comparisons. He's clear that there are

0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.919
<v Speaker 1>places where he has to operate on assumption and that

0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:09.000
<v Speaker 1>he welcomes criticism. Yeah. I was reading a modern take

0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:10.960
<v Speaker 1>on some of it, and they put it very gingerly

0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.040
<v Speaker 1>by saying like he does a bit too much smoothing

0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.440
<v Speaker 1>at times. I was like, that's a perfect way to

0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.120
<v Speaker 1>put it, we are going to get into the various

0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.800
<v Speaker 1>conclusions that Grant drew from analyzing the Bills of Mortality,

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.159
<v Speaker 1>as well as talk about the later part of his life,

0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.280
<v Speaker 1>and we'll do that after we hear from the sponsors

0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:40.000
<v Speaker 1>that keep the show going. In his writing, John Grant

0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:43.639
<v Speaker 1>draws some conclusions outside of just crunching numbers, some of

0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.600
<v Speaker 1>which are debatable but show that he is thinking about

0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.560
<v Speaker 1>ways of applying all of this information. For instance, he

0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:53.719
<v Speaker 1>notes that there are very few deaths from starvation, but

0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.919
<v Speaker 1>that London has a lot of people panhandling and begging

0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.520
<v Speaker 1>for food, and he wonders quote that it were better

0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:03.159
<v Speaker 1>to maintain all beggars at the public charge, though earning nothing,

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:05.679
<v Speaker 1>than to let them beg about the streets, and that

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.480
<v Speaker 1>employing them without discretion may do more harm than good.

0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.600
<v Speaker 1>He doesn't elaborate, so it's unclear if he means to

0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 1>make these people wards of the state or provide for

0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.280
<v Speaker 1>them in some other way, but he's basically saying like,

0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.240
<v Speaker 1>you can't just hire them into jobs because they might

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:22.720
<v Speaker 1>not know what they're doing and it could cause a

0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of problems. He also noted that Ricketts as Tracy

0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.359
<v Speaker 1>mentioned earlier had risen over the years, seemingly popping up

0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.119
<v Speaker 1>out of nowhere, asking in his work quote now, the

0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:37.000
<v Speaker 1>question is whether that disease did first appear about that time,

0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.880
<v Speaker 1>or whether a disease which had been long before did

0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:45.879
<v Speaker 1>then first receive its name. Then identified other diseases like

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.119
<v Speaker 1>liver grown that were dropping off the list in frequency

0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.199
<v Speaker 1>and that had probably been rickets before that disease had

0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:56.520
<v Speaker 1>been better understood and more consistently diagnosed. There were a

0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:59.160
<v Speaker 1>number of ways in which the way John Grant looked

0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.280
<v Speaker 1>at the numbers the bills of mortality that contradicted a

0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:06.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of commonly held beliefs. If you had asked most

0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 1>Londoners in sixteen sixty how the population was divided between

0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.040
<v Speaker 1>men and women, most probably would have told you there

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:16.840
<v Speaker 1>were three women to every man. This is something that

0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.560
<v Speaker 1>was routinely stated. But when Grant actually looked at the

0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:24.600
<v Speaker 1>numbers of male and female babies born, combined with the

0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:29.280
<v Speaker 1>mortality rates, he discovered that more male babies than female

0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:32.800
<v Speaker 1>babies were born, they also had a higher mortality rate,

0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.320
<v Speaker 1>and that when comparing that information to adult deaths, the

0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:41.560
<v Speaker 1>population was actually divided almost evenly, but slightly skewed higher

0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.000
<v Speaker 1>in men in the country, with sixteen men to every

0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:49.320
<v Speaker 1>fifteen women. In the city proper, there were thirteen women

0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:54.440
<v Speaker 1>for every fourteen men. He also calculated the population of London,

0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 1>creating a piece of data that had been elusive for

0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:02.160
<v Speaker 1>a long time due to rudimentary reporting practices. There were

0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.240
<v Speaker 1>rumors that he talks about that there were as many

0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:07.840
<v Speaker 1>as two million people in London, and he didn't think

0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.360
<v Speaker 1>that was right, so he really wanted to focus on this.

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:14.199
<v Speaker 1>Based on available death and household numbers, which were not

0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:17.920
<v Speaker 1>comprehensive for the entire city but were in some areas,

0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Grant calculated that for every eleven families in London, there

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:26.480
<v Speaker 1>were three deaths per year. Using those numbers, he looked

0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:28.879
<v Speaker 1>at the total average of deaths per year in the

0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 1>city according to the Bill's immortality that was thirteen thousand,

0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:35.800
<v Speaker 1>and then using those numbers, he could calculate that there

0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.439
<v Speaker 1>were forty six thousand, six hundred sixty seven households in

0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:43.440
<v Speaker 1>the city. He used the assumption of eight members per

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:47.040
<v Speaker 1>household based on averages plus the rate of population increased

0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:49.919
<v Speaker 1>through average number of people moving into the city to

0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:52.919
<v Speaker 1>land at a total of three hundred eighty four thousand people,

0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:56.760
<v Speaker 1>one hundred ninety nine thousand, one hundred twelve male, one

0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:00.600
<v Speaker 1>hundred eighty four thousand, eight hundred eighty six female. He

0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:03.280
<v Speaker 1>then cross checked his own work by using different numbers

0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:07.280
<v Speaker 1>from the table to calculate the population in multiple different ways.

0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.400
<v Speaker 1>He also noted that death rates were higher in the

0:24:11.400 --> 0:24:14.520
<v Speaker 1>city than in the more rural parishes, with more people

0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:17.800
<v Speaker 1>per one hundred surviving past the age of seventy in

0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:20.840
<v Speaker 1>the country. This led him to conclude that the country

0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:25.040
<v Speaker 1>was quote more healthful than the city. His research noted

0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:28.280
<v Speaker 1>that chronic diseases tended to have stable rates of death,

0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:33.280
<v Speaker 1>whereas contagious diseases had greater fluctuation by season and location.

0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 1>As for the city being a more dangerous place, Grant

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.720
<v Speaker 1>identified one of the big problems, which was overcrowding. He wrote,

0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:45.760
<v Speaker 1>quote London, the metropolis of England is perhaps head too

0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:49.359
<v Speaker 1>big for the body, and possibly too strong. That this

0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:52.720
<v Speaker 1>head grows three times as fast as the body unto

0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:55.960
<v Speaker 1>which it belongs, that is, it doubles its people in

0:24:56.359 --> 0:24:59.879
<v Speaker 1>third part of the time. He notes that the street

0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.480
<v Speaker 1>were not big or stable enough for the many carriages

0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:05.560
<v Speaker 1>that passed through them, and that the way that that

0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:08.520
<v Speaker 1>he had been organized in its earlier years just did

0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:11.879
<v Speaker 1>not suit its needs anymore. Yeah, at this point it

0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:15.520
<v Speaker 1>was still very much laid out in its medieval form,

0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:17.879
<v Speaker 1>and it was becoming like it was just on the

0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:21.080
<v Speaker 1>cusp of getting into industrialization, and like I was not

0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:24.159
<v Speaker 1>cutting it. He also came up with a life table

0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:27.480
<v Speaker 1>that showed the statistics of deaths based on age over time.

0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:31.000
<v Speaker 1>This is something that is like the foundation of demography,

0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:33.800
<v Speaker 1>and though these exact numbers aren't used all the time,

0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:37.320
<v Speaker 1>the concept is this was very basic. It gave the

0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:40.160
<v Speaker 1>information that out of one hundred berths, which he called

0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:44.080
<v Speaker 1>quick conceptions, thirty six people will have died before the

0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:47.280
<v Speaker 1>age of six, then twenty four more in the decade

0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:50.920
<v Speaker 1>that follows, fifteen more in the decade after that, and

0:25:50.960 --> 0:25:55.160
<v Speaker 1>so on and so on. In his estimation, only one

0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:58.359
<v Speaker 1>could reasonably be expected to survive to the age of

0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 1>seventy six. But though this was interesting and he developed

0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:05.000
<v Speaker 1>a distribution formula to arrive at these numbers, it was

0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.840
<v Speaker 1>also a good bit of guesswork. It was in reference

0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:09.560
<v Speaker 1>to this that I saw someone in right Lake. He

0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.600
<v Speaker 1>did a bit too much smoothing. He also noted that

0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:15.560
<v Speaker 1>this isn't a precise model, but quote that the numbers

0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:19.479
<v Speaker 1>following are practically near enough to the truth. Men do

0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 1>not die in exact proportion nor infractions. Working from that table,

0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:28.520
<v Speaker 1>he described the population in percentages, stating that quote it

0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:31.560
<v Speaker 1>follows also that of all which have been conceived, there

0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:36.040
<v Speaker 1>are now alive forty percent above sixteen years old, twenty

0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:40.080
<v Speaker 1>five above twenty six years old, et ce. Grant's book,

0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:43.200
<v Speaker 1>relaying all this information and the ways he had used

0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:47.679
<v Speaker 1>the basic bills of mortality to extrapolate a numerical assessment

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 1>of London, was only ninety seven pages long, but it

0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:54.639
<v Speaker 1>had a massive impact. He submitted fifty copies of his

0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:57.919
<v Speaker 1>book to the Royal Society for members to read. He

0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:00.600
<v Speaker 1>had also dedicated the book to the President of the

0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:03.840
<v Speaker 1>Royal Society, Sir Robert Moray, which was a really a

0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:09.480
<v Speaker 1>stup move. Physician doctor Daniel Whistler nominated Grant for membership

0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:13.000
<v Speaker 1>in the Society. This was a pretty unusual situation and

0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:16.399
<v Speaker 1>it shows just how important the Society thought his work was.

0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:20.760
<v Speaker 1>Grant wasn't a scientist, and he wasn't from the aristocracy.

0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:24.520
<v Speaker 1>He was a tradesman who hadn't attended a university, so

0:27:24.720 --> 0:27:27.119
<v Speaker 1>not at all the kind of person who was expected

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:29.840
<v Speaker 1>to be a member of the Royal Society. But the

0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:32.879
<v Speaker 1>Royal Society was also quite new, having been founded in

0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:36.400
<v Speaker 1>sixteen sixty, so it wasn't as though his nomination broke

0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:41.240
<v Speaker 1>decades of tradition. King Charles the Scond supported his application

0:27:41.440 --> 0:27:44.359
<v Speaker 1>and made a statement that if the Royal Society found

0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.919
<v Speaker 1>any more tradesmen like Grant, they should admit them as well.

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Grant was indeed made a fellow. He published several editions

0:27:53.080 --> 0:27:56.840
<v Speaker 1>in the following years, updating the tables each time he

0:27:57.000 --> 0:28:01.400
<v Speaker 1>learned new information that led to refined numbers. He notated

0:28:01.440 --> 0:28:05.200
<v Speaker 1>the ways he had estimated things incorrectly in earlier versions,

0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:09.280
<v Speaker 1>like supposing that households had an average of eight people

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:14.199
<v Speaker 1>when five was really more accurate. Because of all of

0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:17.920
<v Speaker 1>this work, Grant is frequently called the father of demography,

0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:22.480
<v Speaker 1>so anytime someone is referencing demographics, they're referencing his work,

0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:26.880
<v Speaker 1>at least indirectly. Other prominent thinkers of Grant's day were

0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:30.280
<v Speaker 1>influenced by his work and continued it or adapted it

0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:34.960
<v Speaker 1>into their own fields. France began its own similar record keeping.

0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:38.520
<v Speaker 1>After Grant's work became known and his friend Sir William

0:28:38.560 --> 0:28:41.680
<v Speaker 1>Petty used the example Grant had set to start looking

0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:44.640
<v Speaker 1>at the ways that death related to economic loss within

0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:49.000
<v Speaker 1>a community. He published his work Essays in Political Arithmetic

0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:53.200
<v Speaker 1>and Political Survey or Anatomy of Ireland in sixteen seventy two,

0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:56.120
<v Speaker 1>after building on the work that Grant had done in London.

0:28:57.000 --> 0:29:00.760
<v Speaker 1>That work launched a wave of probability mathematic and while

0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.800
<v Speaker 1>its flaws are recognized, the concepts of it are still

0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:07.760
<v Speaker 1>in use today. Just three years after Grant's book was

0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:11.920
<v Speaker 1>first published, London experienced a surgeon plague, which is commonly

0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:15.480
<v Speaker 1>known as the Great Plague of sixteen sixty five. Grant's

0:29:15.560 --> 0:29:18.760
<v Speaker 1>updated numbers regarding the size of the population that year,

0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:21.560
<v Speaker 1>which he thought maxed out at four hundred and sixty thousand,

0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:24.520
<v Speaker 1>is one of the only ways to really know today

0:29:24.800 --> 0:29:28.600
<v Speaker 1>just how impactful the death toll was that is usually

0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:31.800
<v Speaker 1>estimated to be around one hundred thousand people over the

0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.520
<v Speaker 1>course of a year and a half. In sixteen sixty six,

0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 1>London experienced the Great Fire and Grant was hit very

0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:42.520
<v Speaker 1>hard by it. His house in a shop burned down.

0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Petty helped finance the rebuilding of Grant's home, but he

0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 1>never really financially recovered and he had to sell his

0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:53.240
<v Speaker 1>remaining property, some of it to Petty, and he may

0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:56.680
<v Speaker 1>have declared bankruptcy. This is another thing that the Aubrey

0:29:56.680 --> 0:30:01.720
<v Speaker 1>account says, but there's no documentation to back it up. However,

0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 1>a lot of documents were destroyed in that fire, and

0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:08.320
<v Speaker 1>Grant's work is some of the only way that we

0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:11.040
<v Speaker 1>know about numbers in London at the time, because everything

0:30:11.080 --> 0:30:15.280
<v Speaker 1>else burned. But Grant and Petty started to have some

0:30:15.440 --> 0:30:18.760
<v Speaker 1>disagreements over money that really shifted the dynamic of their

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:22.880
<v Speaker 1>friendship at this time. During this time of uncertainty, Grant

0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.600
<v Speaker 1>became a Roman Catholic, and this was an unusual and

0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:30.160
<v Speaker 1>unpopular move during this time in England. Refusing to attend

0:30:30.280 --> 0:30:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Anglican services was considered a statutory offense. The conversion really

0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:38.320
<v Speaker 1>took a toll on what was left of his friendship

0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:42.480
<v Speaker 1>with Petty. Petty wrote to Grant in January of sixteen

0:30:42.520 --> 0:30:46.120
<v Speaker 1>seventy three, quote, as for differences in religion, you have

0:30:46.280 --> 0:30:50.240
<v Speaker 1>done a miss in sundry particulars which I need not mention,

0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:55.440
<v Speaker 1>because yourself may easily conjecture my meetings. However, we leave

0:30:55.480 --> 0:30:58.440
<v Speaker 1>these things to God and be mindful of what is

0:30:58.480 --> 0:31:01.600
<v Speaker 1>the sum of all religion, and of what is and

0:31:01.800 --> 0:31:06.080
<v Speaker 1>ever was true religion all the world over. Petty also

0:31:06.200 --> 0:31:09.240
<v Speaker 1>confided in a letter to a friend soon after, quote,

0:31:09.280 --> 0:31:13.600
<v Speaker 1>Captain Grant is now an open and zealous champion for popery.

0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Wherefore I have not so much intimacy with him as formerly.

0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:21.720
<v Speaker 1>We mentioned earlier in the episode that Grant was part

0:31:21.760 --> 0:31:24.920
<v Speaker 1>of an infrastructure project that brought water into the city.

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:28.440
<v Speaker 1>That work was done by the New River Company, at

0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:34.000
<v Speaker 1>which Grant was in a managerial position. His Catholicism caused

0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:37.640
<v Speaker 1>so many problems and was so despised by many Londoners

0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:41.000
<v Speaker 1>that a rumor started that he had been, perhaps somehow

0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:43.760
<v Speaker 1>to blame for the Great Fire, and that he had

0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:47.240
<v Speaker 1>prevented water from reaching the city to douse the flames

0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:50.280
<v Speaker 1>as part of being in this role, and this actually

0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:53.200
<v Speaker 1>got him in legal trouble, although he was ultimately found

0:31:53.240 --> 0:31:55.680
<v Speaker 1>to have done no such thing. He actually was not

0:31:55.840 --> 0:31:59.680
<v Speaker 1>in that managerial position until after the fire had taken place.

0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:03.959
<v Speaker 1>Although his innocence on that matter had been proven, his

0:32:04.000 --> 0:32:08.600
<v Speaker 1>status as a Catholic continued to isolate him professionally and socially.

0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:11.959
<v Speaker 1>He was called before the court twice on the charge

0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:15.960
<v Speaker 1>of recusancy failing to attend Anglican church, and he pled

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:19.719
<v Speaker 1>not guilty. His case was scheduled for trial and if

0:32:19.760 --> 0:32:22.760
<v Speaker 1>he was found guilty, his property would be seized by

0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:26.600
<v Speaker 1>the Crown, but that trial never happened. In the early

0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:31.520
<v Speaker 1>sixteen seventies, Grant developed liver disease. He died on April eighteenth,

0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:34.720
<v Speaker 1>seventeen sixty four before his trial date. His cause of

0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:38.640
<v Speaker 1>death is given as jaundice. He was buried at Saint

0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:42.880
<v Speaker 1>Dunstan's Church in Fleet Street. Although their relationship had suffered,

0:32:43.080 --> 0:32:47.160
<v Speaker 1>Petty attended his funeral and was deeply upset. Petty took

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:50.240
<v Speaker 1>care of Grant's widow Mary financially in the years after this,

0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:55.680
<v Speaker 1>and now today we have actuaries. Yeah, thanks John Grant.

0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:59.520
<v Speaker 1>John Grant is mentioned in the episode that you wrote

0:32:59.520 --> 0:33:05.560
<v Speaker 1>about actuarial science. Yes, we love all of the actuaries.

0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:10.760
<v Speaker 1>We love it. I have a very fun listener mail

0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:17.760
<v Speaker 1>which also mentions and shares flowers. We'll get to it.

0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:21.040
<v Speaker 1>This from our listener, Jamie, who writes, Hi, Holly and Tracy,

0:33:21.480 --> 0:33:24.080
<v Speaker 1>I just finished your episode on James Braid and wanted

0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:28.560
<v Speaker 1>to share my experience with hypnotism. After graduating my high school,

0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:31.480
<v Speaker 1>at a party where, among other things, a hypnotist performed,

0:33:31.880 --> 0:33:34.520
<v Speaker 1>I was chosen as one of the participants. It was

0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:38.240
<v Speaker 1>an interesting experience. I remember a few things. It was

0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:40.959
<v Speaker 1>more than a few years ago now for me. I

0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:43.320
<v Speaker 1>was aware the whole time, but I just did exactly

0:33:43.320 --> 0:33:45.720
<v Speaker 1>what I thought. Like when we were told it was

0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:48.240
<v Speaker 1>very cold, I cuddled to the person next to me.

0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:51.080
<v Speaker 1>I was told to give a different name every time

0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:53.920
<v Speaker 1>the hypnotist asked my name, and it was going good

0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:57.360
<v Speaker 1>until he asked my name after someone else's who had

0:33:57.400 --> 0:34:01.040
<v Speaker 1>responded sam. My brain supplied the same name. But then

0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:03.280
<v Speaker 1>I thought I can't be Sam he is, and so

0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:08.000
<v Speaker 1>I said Samantha. My hesitation obviously showed that I was

0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:09.840
<v Speaker 1>coming out of it, so that was the end of

0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:12.960
<v Speaker 1>my part. While I was open to suggestion, I also

0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:16.880
<v Speaker 1>couldn't overcome my own strongly held beliefs. I can't imagine

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:19.320
<v Speaker 1>how the woman whose neck was set to one side

0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:23.920
<v Speaker 1>was able to move it through hypnotism. Listen me either anyway.

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:26.640
<v Speaker 1>As a reward for reading through all that, please enjoy

0:34:26.680 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 1>these flowers. In Pella, Iowa, there is a tulip festival.

0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:33.400
<v Speaker 1>The town plants thousands of different kinds of tulips, and

0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:35.640
<v Speaker 1>driving a few hours to see them in May is

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:39.120
<v Speaker 1>much easier than flying to Amsterdam. I have never seen

0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:41.560
<v Speaker 1>so many different kinds, and I hope you enjoy them.

0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:44.359
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for all you do. I truly appreciate your show

0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:46.439
<v Speaker 1>and the hard work you put into it. And there

0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:50.000
<v Speaker 1>are beautiful pictures of tulips. There are some pink ones,

0:34:50.480 --> 0:34:54.360
<v Speaker 1>some orange ones, some yellow ones, and some that look black,

0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:57.439
<v Speaker 1>which I come up with, And I'm like, will those

0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:01.240
<v Speaker 1>grow in Georgia, because maybe I start planning tulips. Listen,

0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:04.640
<v Speaker 1>we love a little gothic flower in our house. I

0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:09.240
<v Speaker 1>am glad to have gotten Jamie's account of being hypnotized. Yeah,

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:12.520
<v Speaker 1>I realized, I don't think I've ever been hypnotized. And

0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:15.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, would that work for me? Or would I

0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:17.400
<v Speaker 1>be a pain in the Would I be the problem

0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:20.759
<v Speaker 1>child that's like this isn't working, that tries to be

0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.560
<v Speaker 1>a trouble. Yeah. When I was in college, we had

0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:27.600
<v Speaker 1>a couple of you know, the things arranged by the

0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:31.520
<v Speaker 1>student affairs committee or whatever, like, yeah, whoever was arranging

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:34.320
<v Speaker 1>entertainment on campus, and there were a couple of different

0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.760
<v Speaker 1>times that there was a hypnotist show, and I always

0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:42.120
<v Speaker 1>found it so fascinating what was happening, and then also

0:35:42.320 --> 0:35:48.200
<v Speaker 1>was curious of like is this actually staged or is

0:35:48.280 --> 0:35:52.680
<v Speaker 1>this really happening? Yeah, which was going on during James

0:35:52.719 --> 0:35:55.120
<v Speaker 1>Braid's time as well. Correct. If you would like to

0:35:55.160 --> 0:35:57.879
<v Speaker 1>email us to tell us about your experience with hypnotism

0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:01.120
<v Speaker 1>or with tulips or your pets or whatever you wish,

0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:05.120
<v Speaker 1>you could do that at History podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:07.680
<v Speaker 1>If you would like to read the show notes, those

0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:10.719
<v Speaker 1>are available at mystonhistory dot com. We put them up

0:36:10.760 --> 0:36:13.640
<v Speaker 1>for every episode we do. And if you have not

0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:15.719
<v Speaker 1>subscribed to the podcast and you would like to, you

0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:18.200
<v Speaker 1>can do that on the iHeartRadio app or anywhere you

0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:26.560
<v Speaker 1>listen to your favorite shows. Stuff you Missed in History

0:36:26.600 --> 0:36:30.959
<v Speaker 1>Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:34.720
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0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.600
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