1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: On May nineteenth, nineteen seventy five, two men approached fifty 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: nine year old Harold Franks outside of a Cleveland, Ohio 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: grocery store, demanding his briefcase. Franks resisted, and the men 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: clubbed him with a pipe and splashed acid in his 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: face before shooting him twice in the chest. The shooter 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: fired into the grocery store as well, hitting co owner 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: Ann Robinson, who survived. Mister Franks, however, did not. An 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: eyewitness wrote down the plate number as the assailants sped 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: off in a green convertible. Despite the plate number and 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: other compelling leads, police instead focused on the word of 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: twelve year old Eddie Vernon, who had been bragging about 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: witnessing the crime from a bus, repeating an alleged rumer 13 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: naming Ricky Jackson as well as Wiley and Ronnie Bridgman 14 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: as the assailants. Vernon's classmates and the bus driver denied 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: even having the vantage point to see the crime during 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: interviews and then the lineup. When Eddie Vernon tried to 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: back away from the lie, investigators threatened to lock up 18 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: his parents if he didn't stick to the story. By 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: ignoring more compelling suspects and instead coercing a child. The 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: states at Ricky Jackson as well as Wiley and Ronnie 21 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: Bridgman to death rout. When the nineteen seventy four reinstatement 22 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: of the death penalty in Ohio was struck dout as 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: unconstitutional in nineteen seventy eight, those condemned between those years 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: had their senses commuted to life, including Ronnie, Wiley and Ricky, 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: assuring the possibility of their innocence one day being recognized. 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's 27 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: story is important in so many ways. The man who 28 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: lived through this well four decades of imprisonment on the 29 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: basis of an eyewitness who wasn't there, who was twelve 30 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: years old at the time, who was coerced, pressured, croutbeaten 31 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: by authorities, the same authorities who overlooked or ignored evidence 32 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: pointing to the actual two assailants and what was a brutal, 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: brutal crime. And I'm very, very honored to have the 34 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: man himself, Ricky Jackson. Ricky, thank you for being here today. 35 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me Jason, I appreciate it. Thank you. 36 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: So let's set the stage here. When I tell you 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: the name of the place where this occurred, people are 38 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: probably going to be given some knowing nods in their 39 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: car or their home wherever they're listening, because it feels 40 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: like every other episode we do is a wrong for 41 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: conviction based in Cuyahoga County. 42 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: Well, when you look at the number of Alexanderies through 43 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 3: Kyahoga County, it justifies the statement you just made. At 44 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: least in those times, the police pretty much owned the 45 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 3: prosecutor's office, the coroner's office, whatever they sent up the pipeline. 46 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: Nobody went against the police. 47 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: No, that's right. Your story, as you were telling me earlier, 48 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: is important because if it could happen to you, it 49 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: can happen to anyone. And when I say that you 50 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: lived a relatively normal, peaceful life growing up, you were 51 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: only eighteen when this happened. You were still really a child, 52 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: let's face it, but you know, turning into a man. 53 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: I mean back in the mid seventies, you know, life 54 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 3: was not as hectic as it is today, and I 55 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: was doing the typical eighteen year old stuff. One of 56 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: my friends, or Wilie Bridgeman, he had joined the National Guard. 57 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: He came home one day on lead we saw that 58 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 2: uniform and we were so all and impressed and amazed 59 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: by that. 60 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 3: That we immediately set our sights so on joining the military, 61 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: you know, and. 62 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: You joined the Marines, right, and then we're honorably discharged 63 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: for medical reasons. 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: Yes, I was doing a detail and the driver pulled 65 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: off before. 66 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: I had a good burm hold. 67 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: On the back of a dump truck and I fell off, 68 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: and my back hasn't been the same. I thought I 69 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: was going to be able to get out, we had 70 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: my back and re enlist. But in the process of 71 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 3: doing that, Eddie burning happened. 72 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: Yes, Eddie Vernon happened. That's a help of a way 73 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: of putting it very direct. It all comes down to 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: this kid, and I'm talking about he was a kid, 75 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: he was twelve years old. I feel that he's a 76 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: victim in this as well. I don't know if you 77 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: share that belief. 78 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: I do. I do. I strongly share that. I mean, 79 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 2: he was a twelve year old kid. 80 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and at twelve years old, we know how easily 81 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: influenced you can be and how easily scared you can 82 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: be at that age. And then a lie just grows into. 83 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: Something you can't control. 84 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, it grows horns and it gets worse and worse. 85 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: So Eddie Vernon, was he just a kid from the neighborhood. 86 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: Did you guys know him? 87 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 2: He used to be our paperboy at one time. 88 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: I remember when I used to come home from school 89 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 3: to have lunch in the winter time. 90 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: He will be sitting at our kitchen table. 91 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: My mother would like give him soup and a grilled 92 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: cheese sandwich or something like that because it was so 93 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: cold outside before he continued on with his route. I 94 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 3: mean because of our age difference. I never, you know, 95 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 3: hung out with him and anything, but I knew his family. 96 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: The crime itself, this is a crime that happened on 97 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: May nineteenth to nineteen seventy five when fifty nine year 98 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: old Harold Franks, who was a money order salesman, where 99 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: he was leaving a grocery store on Fairhill Road in Cleveland, Ohio, 100 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: when two men approached him. The men confronted mister Franks 101 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: and demanded his briefcase. And this is where it gets 102 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: really crazy. When Franks resisted, they clubbed him in the 103 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: head with a pipe and splashed acid in his face. 104 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: What kind of sick people are these And one of 105 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: the men then shot him twice in the chest and 106 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: fired a shot through the store's glass front door, hitting 107 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: fifty eight year old Ann Robinson, who was the co 108 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: owner of the store. She was shot at the neck, 109 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: but somehow miraculously survived. Mister Franks tragically did not. The 110 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: two robbers fled with the briefcase. Remember I said, two 111 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: robbers containing four hundred and twenty five dollars and some 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: blank money orders, and they escaped in a green car 113 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: that was parked down the street. Did you have a 114 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 1: green car, by. 115 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 2: The way, No, never, I didn't even own a car. 116 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: Okay, man So and by the way, the three guys 117 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: convicted for a crime the two guys committed. That's just 118 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: one little fraction of the problems with this case. Right 119 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: find out as we go along. 120 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 3: May nineteenth, the crime had just happened not two hundred 121 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: feet from where we lived, the three of us, and so, 122 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 3: you know, we saw people gradually going towards the Fair 123 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 3: Hill area, and so we asked, like, what's going on, 124 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: you know, and they like, somebody just. 125 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: Got killed up at the store. 126 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: We didn't have nothing to do at the particular time, 127 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 3: so we decided to go up there and be lucky 128 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: lose as well. We got up there and by the 129 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 3: time we reached the location, the police were up there. 130 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: There were TV cameras out there. The police had the 131 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 3: area Hordendolph and there was a body with the sheet 132 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 3: laying askew. And I saw Eddie Vernon at the scene 133 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: at a crime and he was looking around like everybody 134 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: else was. And so we stayed up there for approsequently 135 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: fifteen to twenty five minutes and we left. 136 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: The investigation involved detectives Eugene Terpe and James Farmer, as 137 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: well as numerous others. They had the license plate number 138 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: of the green escape car. This case came with instructions 139 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: that escape car belonged to a guy named Ishmael Hickson. 140 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: And they were also pointed this is I mean when 141 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: I read this, my head about exploded. Okay, so get 142 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: this everyone. They were also pointed in the direction of 143 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: Paul Gardenshire, whose own mother contacted the store owner and 144 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: the police to report that her son had a gun 145 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: and that she believed that he was involved in the shooting. 146 00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 147 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 3: The same caliber gun, mind you, of the gun that 148 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 3: was used to kill mister Franks. 149 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: The guy's freaking mother came forward, and then another informant 150 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: also implicated Gardenshire, who said that he stole his grandfather's 151 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: thirty eight caliber gun, which was the murder weapon, and 152 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: was driving around in a convertible that was yes, you 153 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: guessed it green in color, and that was the escape car. 154 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: These details were not public knowledge at the time, right, 155 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: so this is inside information, and Officer Terpe found the 156 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: green convertible exactly where the informant said it would be. 157 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: I'm getting the chills now. 158 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: There were a lot of viable suspects. 159 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: The FBI even got in contact with the Cleveland Police 160 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: Department and told them that you need to be looking at. 161 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 2: These guys right here. 162 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 3: They have anmo of throwing liquids in people's faces when 163 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 3: they robbed them, you know, And you know, the police 164 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: for a time went down this road. But when you 165 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 3: got a twelve year old boy saying that he was 166 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 3: an actual eyewitness, you know, and they're not going to 167 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 3: spend on that time chasing these leads of what might 168 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 3: have been when we got an actual witness. 169 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: And of course you're referring to Eddie Vernon, who had 170 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: he actually seen anything and had you and the Bridgeman's 171 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: actually been the culprits, he could have pointed you out 172 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: to the police when you were all at the scene 173 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: right after the crime had occurred. But the fact is 174 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: he hadn't seen anything, As he admitted so many long 175 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: years later, he was actually on the bus with a 176 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: bunch of his classmates at the time of the crime. 177 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: They all heard the gunshots, but none of them had 178 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 1: a vantage point to see anything. It was not possible 179 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: for them to see the crime, not even the bus 180 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: driver who would have had the best view. So from 181 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: what I understand, there was a rumor that you and 182 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: the Bridgemans may have been involved. We don't know how 183 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: this river got started. Maybe there wasn't even a rumor 184 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: at all. Maybe your name came from the cops. Either way, 185 00:09:58,240 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: it's hard to know. But how the hell is Eddie 186 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: end up as a target of police coercion and get 187 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 1: forced into making a statement implicating you as well as 188 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: Wiley and Ronnie Bridgeman. 189 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: Edward Burning was running around the neighborhood telling people that 190 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 3: he had saw the whole crime and he knew who 191 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 3: did it, and so you know, eventually this got back 192 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 3: to the gentleman that owned the store where the crime 193 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: took place, and so he tracked Edward Burning down, took 194 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 3: him back to the store and started grilling him, like, 195 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 3: if you saw who did this, you need to tell us. 196 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 3: And so the store owner got the police involved, and 197 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 3: then the police started putting the screws in Eddie burning. 198 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 3: But upon talking to this twelve year old boy, even 199 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 3: for a rookie police officer, it would have been easy 200 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 3: to tell that this kid was fabricating a lot of shit. 201 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I mean, this is probably an insecure 202 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: kid who wanted to be the center of attention. So 203 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: he went out and told people he had seen the crime. Well, 204 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,839 Speaker 1: and that's what started this whole snowball effect. And then 205 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: the police get this tunnel vision and they decided that 206 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: they don't really care about investigating the crime. In fact, 207 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: when they did investigate the crime. When investigation they did, 208 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: they collected physical evidence from the scene, but inconveniently, none 209 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: of it matched you, Ronnie or Wiley. So the evidence 210 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: that they did have, which again should have been the 211 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: giant red flag ding ding ding ding ding that should 212 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: have been it, right, all of that evidence pointed to 213 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: other people, including the license plate number of the green 214 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: escape car which they. 215 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 3: Had, I mean, and all these people had arm robbery 216 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 3: on their rap seats. 217 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: So no other investigation was conducted into these or any 218 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: other leads. Once Eddie Vernon came forward, all the other 219 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: investigations stopped and they focused on you three guys with 220 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: absolute total tunnel vision. 221 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 3: They pretty much kidnapped this kid, you know, and they 222 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 3: told his parents if they ever tried to get involved 223 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 3: or ever tried to stop them from coming to get Edward, 224 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 3: that they would prosecute them. Had complete and total control 225 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 3: of this twelve year old kid, and so this began 226 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 3: the process of molding Eddie Vernon from a liar and 227 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 3: to aligning witness. They pretty much had to build this 228 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 3: case and give Edward burning information as they went along, 229 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 3: which is why his testimony and his statement changed from 230 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 3: day to day, you know, because they were feeding him information. 231 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 3: He didn't see what happened, and so he had to 232 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 3: create something and they kept the pressure on it. Fast 233 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 3: forward a few days later, the three of us were 234 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 3: coming home from a party. Was about one o'clock at night, 235 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: and my dad had this policy when he locks his 236 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 3: doors at night, all in ain't getting in, you know, 237 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: so it wasn't not common for me to, you know, 238 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 3: go sleep at the Bridgeman's house, who stayed just a 239 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 3: couple of houses down for me. Anyway, just as I 240 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 3: was knotted off, I saw lights going by my window, 241 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: you know, flashlights, And before I could get my whereabouts together, 242 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 3: the door was exploded in the room was filled with 243 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 3: police officers who with guns lights, and they were shouting 244 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 3: my name and was shouting at Bridgeman's names. They got 245 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 3: me first because I was right there on the couch 246 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: in the front room where the door was kicked in, 247 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 3: So they grabbed me, threw. 248 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: Me to the floor, knees in the black. 249 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: Handcuffed me, asking me what were the Bridgeman's at And 250 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: I was so confused. I didn't know what to say 251 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: because I was horrified. I mean, it was just like 252 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 3: a total shock. But by the time they drugged me 253 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: outside and had me on top of a police car, 254 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: I could look down the street and see my entire family. 255 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: I could see my entire family stressed out in the street, 256 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: and every one of them had a shotgun pointed at 257 00:13:50,480 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 3: their heads. 258 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Traig 259 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: through its pro bono program. Greenberg TRAIG leverages its more 260 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to 261 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 262 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice, 263 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: Greenberg Triwerg attorneys have exonerated in freedomand in Philadelphia, represent 264 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as 265 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and received the American Bar Association's 266 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation 267 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is 268 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: reimagining what big law can be because a more just 269 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: world only happens by design. 270 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 3: It became obvious to me that they had hit my 271 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: house first en route to the Brisma's house, and they 272 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: finally got to Bri out of the house, and I mean, 273 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: we were still just totally in shock. We didn't know 274 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: what the hell did we do. We had just came 275 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: from a party. There was no incident at the party, 276 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: so we are totally confused as to what's going on, 277 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 3: not knowing that this is all related to that man 278 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 3: having got killed. A couple of days earlier up at 279 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 3: fair Hill. We didn't know this at the time, We 280 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 3: had no clue. We get downtown the next morning, we 281 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: go into a lineup, they do their thing, they let 282 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 3: us out. Unbeknownst to us at the time, Eddie Burning 283 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 3: was standing behind that two way glass. 284 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: And he refused, he couldn't pick anybody. 285 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 3: He didn't pick anybody, and so the police never told 286 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 3: us we were free to go. Instead, they took Edward 287 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: Burning in the back room, a twelve year old boy, 288 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: unescorted by a parent or a lawyer. 289 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 2: Took him back in the back room and they threatened him. 290 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: They told him that they couldn't do nothing to him 291 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: because he was a kid, but if he didn't pick 292 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: us out in that line up Ricky Jackson and Wally 293 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 3: Bridgeman and Ronnie Bridgeman. 294 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 2: That they would make sure that he never saw his 295 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: mom and dad again. 296 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 3: They would sending his mom and dad to prison for 297 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 3: a long time because he started this process and now 298 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 3: he had to finish it. And so while we were 299 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: outside in the common area making a phone call to 300 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: call our folks and say, well, you know, they haven't 301 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 3: told us anything, so I guess you can come and 302 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: get us he points us out while we're out in 303 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: the common room with hundreds of other people, prisoners or whatever, 304 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 3: making phone calls. 305 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: And a couple hours later, they called us and told. 306 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: Us that we had been indicted for murder and they 307 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 3: were seeking the death penalty. And that's when we found 308 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 3: out that Edward Vernon was a kid that was saying 309 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: that he had saw us do this. It was just 310 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: mind boggling because my mind instantly went back to that 311 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 3: day when I saw him standing there at the scene 312 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 3: at the crime like everybody else in the neighborhood, you know, 313 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 3: and like, why wouldn't you say to the police because 314 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 3: there was plenty of police there. 315 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 2: That's him right there. 316 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: Because Eddie Vernon never saw a freaking thing nothing. He 317 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: just told a lie like many little kids do, and 318 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 1: then he got roped into repeating that lie in an 319 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: arena where the stakes were well life and death and 320 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: so On May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy five, You, Wiley, 321 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: and Ronnie were all charged with aggravated murder, aggravated attempted murder, 322 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: as well as aggravated robbery, and the trial started that August. 323 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: You guys went to trial. The prosecution's case rested. Well, 324 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 1: there was nothing else other than the testimony of this 325 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: little kid who is now thirteen. His testimony was all 326 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: over the place. He initially told the cops that he 327 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: was on the bus coming home from school when he 328 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: saw two men attack mister Franks as he got out 329 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: of his car walked the store, But a trial Eddie 330 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: that he had already gotten off the bus when he 331 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: saw the attack, and that the attack occurred as Frank's 332 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: emerged from the store, So very very different than what 333 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: he originally said. That should have been a huge flag 334 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: there as well. An Robinson meanwhile testified the woman who 335 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: was shot in the neck that she had been shot 336 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: by a bullet that came through the store's front door, 337 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: but she was unable to identify the robbers, understandably so, 338 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: and a sixteen year old neighborhood girl testified for the defense, 339 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: saying that she walked into the store just before the 340 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: attack and saw two, not three men outside the store, 341 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: and that neither of the two men or any of 342 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: you three guys, very brave young girl. Several of Eddie 343 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: Vernon's classmates testified that he was on the bus with 344 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: them when they heard the gun shots, but that none 345 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: of them were able to see the robbers. 346 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: During the course of our three separate trials, we had 347 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 3: nearly every kid on that bus testified in our behalf 348 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 3: about what they saw where the bus was at that time. 349 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 3: And that was like ten or twelve kids saying the 350 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 3: same thing. You know, he couldn't have possibly be seen, 351 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 3: and we were all on the bus together. He didn't 352 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 3: get out before we got all we got off at 353 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 3: the same stop, and the bus driver he's got the 354 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 3: best seat in the house, you know, but he didn't 355 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 3: see anything. But it was so easy to inflame an 356 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: all white jewelry when you got a black person accused 357 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: of killing a white person. You know, anything you have 358 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: to say on your behalf, never really not listening to that. 359 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 3: You know, Let's let's get to the park where we 360 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 3: execute this dude. 361 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 2: You know. 362 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 3: And that's pretty much what my trial balled down to, 363 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: you know. I mean a judge even said during a 364 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 3: recess that he didn't believe the state witness for one minute. 365 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 3: But I'm not gonna take the power out of jury's hands. 366 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 3: That's your job as a judge. If you have a witness, 367 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 3: a key witness, you talk about executing three people, and 368 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: you say, outside of the court record of I don't 369 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 3: believe this kid for a man that he's lying. I 370 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 3: saw him and being coached out in the hallway, but 371 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 3: I'm not going to do anything about it. And when 372 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: you're up against stuff like that, there's no way you 373 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: can win. 374 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: And let us not forget that. In so doing, and 375 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: not just the judge, but the prosecutors, the cops, and 376 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: everybody else who was involved in this fiasco, they're also 377 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: allowing the two guys that committed this disgusting crime to 378 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: remain free. 379 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 3: Thank you for bringing that up, because it's a point 380 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 3: I try to make so often about the uncounted victims 381 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 3: that off Boss imprisonment possibly created. 382 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: We'll never know the numbers you guys. 383 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, did have alibi witnesses who testified. 384 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 3: I hate to keep saying this man, but whatever we 385 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: had to say, Yes, we had a lot of witnesses, 386 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 3: you know, my mother, I mean, timelines, everything. But all 387 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 3: they wanted to know was like, when is we gonna 388 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 3: hang this league? And I'm sorry to say that, but 389 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: that's what I felt like. You know, it didn't matter 390 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 3: what we had to say. It didn't matter that the 391 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 3: evidence was shitty. A white man is dead and somebody 392 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 3: needs to pay for it. If they didn't do this, 393 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 3: they probably did something else, you know, And that was 394 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 3: the Bavaili attitude. 395 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 2: How can you be prepared. 396 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: To kill three young men based on almost absolutely nothing, 397 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 3: but they were willing to and didn't blink an eye 398 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 3: about it. I spent two and a half years on 399 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: death road. I came within two months of being executed. 400 00:21:42,640 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 3: This has got to stop. For a long time, I 401 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 3: thought that this was just a racio and an economical issue. 402 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: But this happens to everybody. 403 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 3: I know a lot of gunneries from around the country, 404 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 3: including Hawaii. You know what I'm saying, that had professions, 405 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 3: they had children, they were happily married, and they got 406 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: caught up in this same madness. They got caught up 407 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: in the same madness. And when it's you against the state, 408 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 3: guess what, You're gonna lose every time. You are gonna 409 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 3: lose every time because they don't have to follow the rules. 410 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 3: And if they get caught, guess what, there's no repercussions. 411 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: Right. Imagine if the suspect went to a twelve year 412 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: old kid and threatened him, I'm gonna take your parents 413 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 1: away from you. You'll never see him again unless you 414 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: do exactly what I said. You lie like I tell 415 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: you too. I mean, we all know that no allowed 416 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: to bribe a witness, but the government can offer them 417 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: plea deals. I can threaten them and not supposed to 418 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: threaten them, but they do. But they could definitely offer 419 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: them plea deals, and that's the best bribe of all. 420 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, you have no shot in hell. 421 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, and you had no shot in hell. 422 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: So in August of nineteen seventy five, you were convicted 423 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: along with Wiley, and Ronnie was convicted in September, and 424 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: all of you were sentenced to death later commuted to 425 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: life in prison, which is like a living death sentence. 426 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: What was your experience of death. 427 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 3: Throw The moment you got back, there was always this 428 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: feeling I'm impending doom, Like it was right around the corner. 429 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 3: You know, you had you had two options, go crazy 430 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 3: or you accept this and make it work for you. 431 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: You know, I was on the mission anyway, you know, 432 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: I was innocent, you know, and I wasn't gonna lay 433 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 3: back here waiting for my death. Dating So between my workouts, 434 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 3: I would write. I wrote so many letters, you know, 435 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 3: and they cut the lights off at a certain time 436 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 3: in prison, so you got to get up on the 437 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 3: bars and like get the little light coming out from 438 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 3: the security light outside. And I'm up, like two thirty 439 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 3: in the morning just writing anybody that would listen, you know, 440 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 3: like I'm on death row, my execution data so and 441 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 3: so so and so I'm innocent. My two friends are 442 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 3: innocent looking to my case, you know. And that's what 443 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 3: I did, worked out, made friends back there. You know, 444 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 3: you survived, man, the best you could, you know, like 445 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 3: I said, But it was always an impending doom while 446 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 3: I was back there. You know, the Ohio state legislation 447 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 3: was in flux about what they wanted to do with 448 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 3: the death penalty and soul. They placed the moratorium on executions, 449 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 3: and that's what eventually got everybody off of death row. 450 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 2: Doing my stint back there, but. 451 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: Life in general back there was like, you don't have 452 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: a life. Your life is on the calendar, you know, 453 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 3: you can see the end of your life. 454 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: It's on the calendar. So you lived. 455 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 3: From day to day and hope something comes down from 456 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 3: the United States Supreme Court or the Hio Supreme court. 457 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 3: That's going to spare your life. You know, things could 458 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 3: have went the other way. This interview might not ever 459 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 3: be happening today. My daughter might not be here today, 460 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 3: my wife, my other children. Things could have easily went 461 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 3: the other way. You know, it's not uncommon for innocent 462 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: people to get executed. 463 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 2: It happens all the time. 464 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: So I know you had been writing letters. A very 465 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: powerful image you gave before from death row leaning up 466 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: against the bars to get a little bit of light 467 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: you could get. So you had written probably to everybody 468 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: and their mother by this point. But how did you 469 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: manage to get the Ohio Innocence Project particulication? When did 470 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: they get about I. 471 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 3: Think it was around two thousand and five when I 472 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 3: first wrote them, they were just themselves starting up. I 473 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 3: contacted them and I gave them the particulars of my case. 474 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 3: It was a long process, I mean, because they vetted 475 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: everything that you send them and say to them, because 476 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 3: they only deal with totally innocent people. I say, ope 477 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 3: appeared of like three and a half years. I got 478 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 3: a letter from them saying that they had decided, after 479 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 3: reviewing my case, to take our case. It took another 480 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 3: additional three or four years, you know, to get to 481 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: the point of the recantation for Maddy Vernon. 482 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: So okay. Twenty eleven, Cleveland Scene magazine published a very 483 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: detailed examination of the case and highlighted the many, many 484 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: inconsistencies in Vernon's testimony, as well as the absence of 485 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: any other evidence linking you, Ronnie or Wiley to the crime. 486 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: And the article pointed out that Vernon had been paid 487 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: fifty dollars by Ann Robinson's husband to testify at the trial. Okay, now, 488 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: fifty dollars in nineteen seventy Whatever it was to a 489 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: twelve year old kid, probably was a lot of money. 490 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: But besides that, there's all the other stuff. But that 491 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: was the fact, most importantly that Vernon had failed to 492 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: mention in his testimony that he had literally been paid 493 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: for it. Okay. So, Kyle Swenson, the recorder who wrote 494 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: this article, attempted to interview Eddie Vernon, but he refused 495 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: to talk about the case. So Swinson reached out to 496 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: Vernon's pastor, Arthur Singleton. This Swinson, guy, man, I'd like 497 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 1: to buy him a beer. When Singleton mentioned to Vernon 498 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: that the reporter wanted to talk to him, Vernon brushed 499 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: him off, telling him to ignore the reporter. But months 500 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: later Swinson sent his article to Singleton, who asked Vernon 501 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: about it, and still Vernon refused to talk about it. 502 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, Singleton paid a visit to Vernon in 503 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: a hospital where Eddie Vernon was being treated for high 504 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: blood pressure. Singleton later said in a sworn AFFI David 505 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: that he asked Vernon again about the article, and this 506 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: is a direct quote. Eddie Vernon told me that he 507 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: lied to the police when he said he had witnessed 508 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: the murder in nineteen seventy five and he had put 509 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: three innocent men in prison for the murder end quote. 510 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: Then another quote. He told me that he tried to 511 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 1: back out of the lie at the time of the lineup, 512 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: but he was only a child that the police told 513 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: him it was too late to change his story. Quote. 514 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: Singleton said that Vernon then broke down and wept, and 515 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: he said, quote I could see the weight being lifted 516 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: from his shoulders end quote. 517 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 3: By then, I and myself, Brian Howell, Mark Gatzi, and 518 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 3: the rest of the team were quite familiar with each other. 519 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 2: I get a call one day and Brian. 520 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 3: Said I could immediately tell that it was something, something 521 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 3: I've been waiting for for a long time. 522 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: I didn't know what it was, but I knew just by. 523 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 3: His attitude and the way he was trying to keep 524 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 3: his composure, I knew it was something big. And when 525 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 3: he told me that Eddie Vernon had recanted his testimony 526 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: being a lawyer, that he is the great lawyer that 527 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 3: he is, he was like, Yep, this is great. 528 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: But it's not the end of the journey. 529 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: You know. 530 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: Now we have to get a judge to accept this. 531 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 3: And I got to tell you, Ricky, recantations are the 532 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: hardest piece of evidence to get before judge. 533 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: You know. 534 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 3: Once a witness makes a statement, that's it. But we're 535 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 3: going to see what we can do. 536 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: So now, after this recantation, Brian Howe and Mark Gotzi 537 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: at the Ohio Innocence Project filed the petition for a 538 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: new trial on behalf of you Ricky Jackson, and similar 539 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: petitions were later filed on behalf of the Bridgeman brothers, 540 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: and the Ohio Innocence Project's reinvestigation of the case uncovered 541 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: evidence that when Vernon attempted to recant his identification of 542 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: the three defendant's police intimidated him to testify falsely. The 543 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: police had never disclosed to the defense attorneys to any 544 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: of you guys that Vernon attempted to recant his accusations 545 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: prior to the trials. Of course, if they had, it 546 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: would have blown the case up. So of course they didn't, right, 547 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: because they were just deep in their own lives now. So, 548 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: police reports obtained by Ohiouse Innocence Project also showed the 549 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: police considered the two other men, Paul Guard and shion 550 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: Ismael Hickson, as suspects, but their investigation was terminated as 551 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: soon as this young kid falsely identified you three guys. 552 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: And of course, lastly, the license plate on the green 553 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: car scene speeding away from the crime was matched to 554 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: a car belonging to mister Hickson, whose record, his long 555 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: rap sheet, included a robbery and a shooting a year earlier. 556 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen seventy six, a year after the Franks murder, 557 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: Hickson pled guilty to over a dozen counts of aggravated robbery. 558 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: So now we get to twenty fourteen, Judge Richard mcmonagall 559 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: held a hearing on your motion for a new trial. 560 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: Eddie Vernon testified that police had bet in the details 561 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: of the crime. A direct quote from him, I don't 562 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: have any knowledge about what happened at the scene of 563 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: the crime. Everything was a lie. They were all lies. 564 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 1: End quote. 565 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 3: Edward Vernon was a catalyst to all of this. He 566 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: got all of this started, He got us locked up. 567 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 3: But in the end, his testimony is what got us free. 568 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 3: Anybody that was in that courtroom, in that gallery that day, 569 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: hearing him from the witness stand left no doubt in 570 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 3: anyone's mind that this was a guy that had made 571 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 3: a terrible mistake. And now he's sitting here, everybody against him, 572 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 3: everybody hating him. But he's sitting up here and doing 573 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 3: what he know he has to do. And he did it. Man, 574 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 3: he really did it. And so I know a lot 575 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 3: of people can't understand this. People like I don't care, 576 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 3: I still would hate him or whatever. Well, that's y'all's. 577 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: Problem to deal with. I don't have no time for it. 578 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 3: You know, I'm just giving credit what credit is due 579 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 3: because his testimony and his candor on that witness stand 580 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: was tent about to us being free. 581 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: Here today, so Vernon told the judge that he was 582 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: on the bus when he heard two pops that sounded 583 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: like firecrackers. The bus was, you know, in the neighborhood, 584 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: in the area of the store, but not near enough 585 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: to the crime scene that he could have seen anything 586 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: that took place, just like all the other kids on 587 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: the bus had said. But based on a rumor he 588 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: heard on the street, he went to the scene and 589 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: told police that you three guys committed the crime. He 590 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: was thinking at the time he was doing the right thing, 591 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: he said to the officer, and that he knew who 592 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: did it. But he testified that he had tried to recamp. 593 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: The detectives took him to a room, just like you said, 594 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: into a room and told them that they would arrest 595 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: his parents for perjury and he would never see them again, etc. 596 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: So he agreed to testify at the trials. He was 597 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: a traumatized kid at that point, and I can't even 598 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: imagine being in his shoes, much less yours. 599 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 3: The court had decided to take a brief recess, and 600 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: the prosecutor went to the ad bench and they talked 601 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 3: to the judge and they took me back into my 602 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 3: holding sale and I was in there about a minute, 603 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 3: and my lawyers came in and said, Rick, they got 604 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 3: a proposition for you. They said, if you plead guilty 605 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 3: right now to all the charges, they'll consider sitting served 606 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 3: and you can go home today. And we got to 607 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 3: have a decision right now. I mean, nothing in the 608 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 3: courtroom was guaranteed. This was guaranteed. You know, plead guilty 609 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 3: and you can go home today. But you're gonna live 610 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 3: your life as a convicted murderer. It only took a 611 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 3: few seconds when I told my lawyers, like, you know what, man, 612 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 3: I'm innocent, and it came too far at this point, 613 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 3: I ain't got nothing to lose. I'm gonna stay with 614 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 3: the hand I was deal. We went out there, We 615 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 3: went back out in the courtroom and proceeded with the proceedings, 616 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 3: and after most of the testimony, the pertinent testimony, the 617 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 3: prosecution once again went to the bench and I heard 618 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 3: the judge say are you sure in a whispery tone, 619 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 3: and the lady nodded, and they went back to their 620 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 3: pspect the benches, and the judge. 621 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 2: Asked me to rise. 622 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 3: He said that the state was not going to you know, 623 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 3: they weren't going to pursue me anymore. In other words, 624 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 3: they weren't going to try to prosecute me anymore. They 625 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 3: really believed that was innocent, you know, And it was 626 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 3: just as simple man. After all that. 627 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 2: It was just as simple man. 628 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: So Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy McGuinty said, and this is 629 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: very powerful, he said, quote the state concedes the obvious. Wow. 630 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: McGonagall dured the hearing, granted motions for the new trial 631 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: filed by you and Wiley, and vacated your convictions. Ronnie's 632 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 1: conviction would later be vacated as well. The prosecution then 633 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: dismissed the charts and you were released after thirty nine years, 634 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: three months, and nine days, and would you say four 635 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: hours on top of that, And at that time you 636 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: were the longest serving defendant exonerated in US history. We 637 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: know that there are others who served longer that we 638 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: never heard their names because they were never freed. But this, 639 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: this is the flip side, now, right, This is the 640 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: good part. This is a good stuff. This is what 641 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: I live for, right, So tell us about that moment 642 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: when you were finally vindicated and released and walked out 643 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: into the first free ara you had breathed in almost 644 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: forty years. 645 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,439 Speaker 3: I guess that's one of the quirky things about all 646 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 3: of that. You know, it's just saying those simple words guilty, innocent, 647 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 3: Just those simple words, man. But it took so much 648 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 3: and so much time to get to that point. Honestly, 649 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 3: I was kind of subdued because I was tired. I 650 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 3: was tired. But at the same time, I was grateful 651 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 3: because I made it through the ordeal, and I feel 652 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 3: like I was stronger than they were. But it was 653 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 3: more tremendous relief than actual glee and happiness. 654 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: You know. It's just like, man, it's nice to be 655 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: able to breathe again. 656 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: You know. 657 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 2: It was a great moment. Man. Everything after that was 658 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 2: like I was on cloud nine. You know. It was 659 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 2: just a great relief man, to be free. You know. 660 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: So, ultimately all three of you guys were compensated. I 661 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: wish I could say that for most of the people 662 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: that are on our show. 663 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: Yes, and it's a real tragedy. Man. 664 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: It should be automatic. It should be you walk out 665 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: of prison with an apology and a big check and 666 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: a chance to start your life anew. But even the 667 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: people who do get compensated normally have to wait years, 668 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: typically have to wait years. 669 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: I can attest to that. 670 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: Trust me, and now, luckily, thankfully, you have been compensated. 671 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: There's no amount of money that would be enough, but 672 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: it does give you the freedom to be able to 673 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: live out your days in relative comfort. 674 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 3: I'm sixty five now, you know, and I've been fortunate 675 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 3: enough to be surrounded by people who have given me 676 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 3: so much, you know, helped me navigate the world that 677 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 3: I've been absent from for thirty nine years. 678 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 2: And you know, trust me. 679 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 3: Man, if I didn't have to help, man, I'm still 680 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 3: lost today. I've been out here for almost six years now, 681 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 3: and I'm still kind of lost compared to what a 682 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 3: lot of guys got it. 683 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 2: Man. 684 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 3: I had it. I had it easy. Man, I cannot lie. 685 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 3: This is a social problem. This is our society, This 686 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 3: is our America. 687 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 2: You know. 688 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 3: When I became an exignery, always before that, I always 689 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 3: thought it was black people because that's all I ever 690 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 3: saw black people. 691 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 2: On TV getting exonerated. 692 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 3: But my first Exigonnery conference after I got out of prison, 693 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 3: I saw people from all manner of life. They have 694 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 3: an innocence project in Hawaii, and that boggles my mind. 695 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 3: I've been to Hawaii. It's paradise. Why would you need 696 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 3: an innocent project over there? 697 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 2: But it just. 698 00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 3: Brings back home that we need it everywhere, you know, 699 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 3: because justice isn't perfect anywhere. And it just opened my 700 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 3: perspective upon like, man, this just isn't an inner city 701 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 3: black problem. This is an America world problem, you know. 702 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 3: But there's a lot of stuff you can overcome, man, 703 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 3: you know. And I'm living a great life right now, 704 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 3: and I try to live my life and an example 705 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 3: of what it can be like I mean and out 706 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 3: of perfect life now, but I'm living a life that 707 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 3: I love and the life that I usually dream about 708 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 3: in my prison cell every night, every night, you know, now. 709 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: Ricky, without further ado, the best part of the show 710 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: is the same every week. It's called closing Arguments, and 711 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: it's the part of the show where I first of all, 712 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,479 Speaker 1: thank you again. I'm going to turn my microphone off, 713 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: kick back of my chair with my eyes closed and 714 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: my headphones on, and just listen to anything else you 715 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: want to share my journey. 716 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 2: You know. 717 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 3: I know a lot of people say I don't know 718 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 3: how you so calm, cool and collected, but you need 719 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 3: it to be there to understand why I am the 720 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 3: type of person I am today forgiving understanding. Yes, I 721 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 3: get mad sometimes when I think about I just had 722 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 3: a baby two years ago, my butt, my daughter's about 723 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,439 Speaker 3: to turn to my first child. I think about all 724 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,919 Speaker 3: the time that I'm not going to have with her, 725 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 3: and I kick myself in the butt for that, because 726 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 3: I need to be thinking about the time I do 727 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 3: have with her. But sometimes those thoughts creep in, Like 728 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 3: my mother died while I was in prison, you know, And. 729 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 2: It's just stuff like that. 730 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 3: You know, it's okay to reminisce about the time you lost, 731 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 3: but you can't get caught up in it. You know, 732 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 3: you can't get caught up in it. You have to 733 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 3: appreciate what you have right now. And that's what I'm doing. 734 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 3: I have a beautiful wife. I have three knucklehead step 735 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 3: children and lovely the daughter me and my wife had together. 736 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 3: We got three dogs, we have a beautiful home, and 737 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 3: I'm blessed. 738 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: Man. 739 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 3: You know, the easiest thing to do is to be 740 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 3: angry and bitter. You know, I'd rather be happy and 741 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,320 Speaker 3: get out there and try to change the system. Channel 742 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 3: that anger and bitterness and resentment into doing something. Man, 743 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 3: Get out there and help somebody because somebody helped me, 744 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 3: you know, And I'd be a complete asshole if I 745 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 3: will just sit here and then't try to help anybody else. 746 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 747 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis, 748 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 749 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,240 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 750 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 751 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 752 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 753 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 754 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Ravil. Conviction is 755 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 756 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one