Speaker 1: Episode four sixty four, Money Lies Women Believe with carl Lowenthile.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to
Speaker 2: save money, embrace simplicity and life. Here your hosts Jen
Speaker 2: and Jill.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Jen, my name is Jill, and today
Speaker 1: we are sharing an interview that we did with Carla Lowenthile,
Speaker 1: who is the creator of unf Your Mind, Your Brain,
Speaker 1: your brain. Yes, unf your brain. That is not the
Speaker 1: full way to say it, but there's an asterisk if
Speaker 1: you read it. And I was so excited for this
Speaker 1: interview because Kara studies history and the history of why
Speaker 1: we believe what we believe, not because it's normal, but
Speaker 1: because it has been carefully crafted, which when I'm saying
Speaker 1: it out loud, kind of sounds conspiracy theory is but
Speaker 1: it's not this intentional, devious plan it's just the way
Speaker 1: culture has assimilated so that there are things that we
Speaker 1: as women believe about money that are untrue because we've
Speaker 1: felt that way or been conditioned that way over four
Speaker 1: hundred years.
Speaker 4: And there could be some more malicious, devious planning by
Speaker 4: those most in power, but we are primarily looking with
Speaker 4: Kara at the ways in which this has then impacted us,
Speaker 4: both implicitly and explicitly. Some of the lies that and
Speaker 4: you'll hear me as we go through, like realizing where
Speaker 4: I even find myself. I think it brought a lot
Speaker 4: to the surface for me as well. But then what
Speaker 4: to do from there? As always, we don't want to
Speaker 4: just leave you with problems without ever looking at the solutions,
Speaker 4: so you can also expect that as well.
Speaker 1: But first, this episode is brought to you by December
Speaker 1: twenty ninth. We're already looking ahead to after Christmas. Don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong, I'm still going to be looking in
Speaker 1: your houses, at your Christmas tree, looking at your lights.
Speaker 1: I'm here for it. But let's plan for a couple
Speaker 1: weeks ahead. On December twenty ninth, Jill and I will
Speaker 1: be hosting a free live meal planning class that is
Speaker 1: only free for people who pre order our new book
Speaker 1: By What You Love Without Going Broke. So for all
Speaker 1: of our pre orders, we will so essentially twenty five bucks. Right,
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Speaker 1: and over an hour we are going to help you
Speaker 1: craft and form a one year meal plan and We're
Speaker 1: not just talking dinners, we're talking snacks, life, unch's breakfast.
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Speaker 1: as incorporating the meal prep component to it. So if
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Speaker 1: head to buy What youlovebook dot com, pre order the
Speaker 1: book and then submit the form on buy What you
Speaker 1: loovebook dot com and you will get access to that
Speaker 1: free class.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's going to be a perfect thing just before
Speaker 3: the new year.
Speaker 4: You're going to be so glad and thankful to yourself.
Speaker 4: Your future self will be so grateful that you not
Speaker 4: only have a book coming in the mail that's going
Speaker 4: to help you with your spending decisions and your money,
Speaker 4: but you're also going to have this class just ahead
Speaker 4: of the new year to get you ready for everything
Speaker 4: you're going to eat, and that's going to save you money.
Speaker 5: We love that.
Speaker 3: Whoo Bye welovebook dot com.
Speaker 1: So Carl Lowentheile. She is a New York Times bestselling
Speaker 1: author of Take Back Your Brain. She is an Ivy
Speaker 1: League Women's rights lawyer turn master feminist coach, and the
Speaker 1: founder of the New School of feminist thought, and she
Speaker 1: has a completely well rounded look that is based on
Speaker 1: fact and not opinion on the way that we look
Speaker 1: at money and really just things in general as women.
Speaker 1: She's not so many When I hear the word feminists,
Speaker 1: sometimes I can think abrasive, and that is not Kara
Speaker 1: at all. It is You're just going to love everything
Speaker 1: she says, and it's going to make you think about, Yes,
Speaker 1: there are differences that are in my life because of
Speaker 1: my gender, but that that empowers me to take that
Speaker 1: knowledge and make the changes that are right for me,
Speaker 1: not the changes that maybe somebody else thinks I should.
Speaker 1: So it's a fantastic stick interview.
Speaker 4: Yeah, just greater understanding of ourselves and the environment in
Speaker 4: which we operate in which you know, that's kind of
Speaker 4: the whole goal of this old podcast, the book we
Speaker 4: just wrote, is to just help us understand ourselves better
Speaker 4: and then make more informed decisions as a result.
Speaker 3: So let's get into it.
Speaker 1: Kara, Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. I am so
Speaker 1: excited for this conversation. We're so excited to have you on.
Speaker 5: I'm so excited to be here and to have learned
Speaker 5: that you can get a hot pink cover for your microphone,
Speaker 5: which I'm doing immediately after this call.
Speaker 4: We don't often utilize video, so people don't know this
Speaker 4: is mostly for us, but we do. We've got a
Speaker 4: me on hot microphone, a frugal friend's screen behind us,
Speaker 4: hot pink win screen, and we are ready for this conversation.
Speaker 4: I'm so very excited to talk with you, learn from you,
Speaker 4: introduce you to our audience.
Speaker 3: So to kick us off, you know the real softball here.
Speaker 4: Can you share from you your own research, your years
Speaker 4: of kind of understanding this kind of topic.
Speaker 3: What are some of the differences that you.
Speaker 4: See between men and women when it comes to both
Speaker 4: having and wanting money?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's that's like twelve questions. That's kind
Speaker 5: of there you go, then bubble up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, here for it.
Speaker 5: Where it begins with what? Well, I guess let me
Speaker 5: ask you. I'm going to ask you the question I
Speaker 5: can still we can start with socialization, we could start
Speaker 5: with history. Which one would you like to start with? Oh?
Speaker 3: History?
Speaker 1: Yeah, history, Let's start with history again.
Speaker 5: At the beginning, at the beginning of time, there was
Speaker 5: no currency, and then Adam Smith came along and invented capitalism.
Speaker 5: So Obviously this can vary depending on where you live,
Speaker 5: but we are broadcasting from America. Probably most of your
Speaker 5: listeners are people who live in the US or maybe
Speaker 5: in Western Europe, and so the legal regime in you know,
Speaker 5: Europe England than the US in the last four to
Speaker 5: six hundred years hasn't been around quite long. We were
Speaker 5: legal and economic regimes in which most of the time,
Speaker 5: for most of that history, women did not have full
Speaker 5: financial rights, right, so things could vary country to country
Speaker 5: a little bit, and there are two kind of big
Speaker 5: picture types of kind of types of legal systems that
Speaker 5: were used. But regardless, in a lot of places, if
Speaker 5: you were a woman for most of our kind of
Speaker 5: modern and pre modern history in the last couple of
Speaker 5: thousands of years, you couldn't own your own property, right.
Speaker 5: You could not have a job except potentially with the
Speaker 5: permission of your husband or your father. You could not
Speaker 5: make a legal contract by yourself. You were not a
Speaker 5: legal entity, especially if you were married, and almost everybody
Speaker 5: was married, so in some places there were kind of
Speaker 5: carve outs, like maybe if you were a widow you
Speaker 5: could then like own your inheritance if you didn't have
Speaker 5: male sons who owned it instead. Right, maybe you could
Speaker 5: inherit from your father if you had no brothers. But
Speaker 5: these were like the exception, right, most people had a
Speaker 5: lot of siblings, most almost you know, marriage was fairly
Speaker 5: compulsory for most people. So most women just didn't have
Speaker 5: full legal and economic rights. You couldn't. You know, you
Speaker 5: didn't have the right to your own money, you didn't
Speaker 5: have a legal right to it. You didn't have the
Speaker 5: right to make contracts. You didn't have the right to
Speaker 5: start a business. You know, have the right to start
Speaker 5: a job. So in that system, the way women interact
Speaker 5: with money is your father or your brother or your
Speaker 5: husband or whoever, like, if you have any money, gives
Speaker 5: it to you, right, And so what you are responsible
Speaker 5: for is just managing that little bit of money. Right.
Speaker 5: So this is a sort of like you know, a
Speaker 5: thrifty housewife, like you are responsible for the purse of
Speaker 5: the house, which obviously could be almost nothing if you
Speaker 5: are a medieval peasant and you don't really have any money,
Speaker 5: or it could be quite a lot if you're a
Speaker 5: member of the aristocracy and you are given a large
Speaker 5: allowance by your husband to manage an estate. But either way,
Speaker 5: you're not earning, keeping the money. You're not in charge
Speaker 5: of the money, right. This is obviously you know, if
Speaker 5: you have historians listening to this, this is a seventy
Speaker 5: thousand foot view. But it's important because what we see
Speaker 5: now in the way that men and women are socialized
Speaker 5: around money still has echoes of all of that conditioning.
Speaker 5: Right if you there are media studies done that I
Speaker 5: talk about in my book Take Back Your Brain that
Speaker 5: demonstrate that, you know, media financial literacy, media aimed at
Speaker 5: women is all about budgeting, being thrifty, right, very similar
Speaker 5: to dieting, like restrict and don't be such a you know,
Speaker 5: spend thrift frivolous lady, and don't buy so many shiny things.
Speaker 5: Don't buy your avocado toast and your lattes like that
Speaker 5: stuff's gendered. Are we talking to men when we say
Speaker 5: don't spend money on lates and avocado toast?
Speaker 4: Like? Not?
Speaker 5: Mostly? Right, We're really talking about women, So we still
Speaker 5: get this emphasis on like being good with money for
Speaker 5: a woman is being thrifty, being responsible, saving, budgeting, and
Speaker 5: then financial literacy media aimed at men is about out
Speaker 5: building wealth, investing, making money, you know, taking appropriate risk.
Speaker 5: And so I think we see like that history is
Speaker 5: not far behind us, right, We're still getting socialized in it.
Speaker 5: And I think people are shocked to hear this sometimes,
Speaker 5: Like until nineteen seventy four, which is my mother was
Speaker 5: alive and well, you could not as a woman get
Speaker 5: a credit card in every state in the country without
Speaker 5: a man co signing it and guaranteeing it. And until
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty three, I think for business loans.
Speaker 3: Eighty eight, eighty eight, eighteen eighty eight, it was even sooner.
Speaker 3: I was sex one year before we were born.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was seven years old. So like I am
Speaker 5: the breadwinner in my family, I own a business. I'm
Speaker 5: an entrepreneur. I retired my husband. The idea that like
Speaker 5: he who has never even looked at a spreadsheet, probably
Speaker 5: he was a lawyer, would have to like come to
Speaker 5: the bank with me to approve that I could have
Speaker 5: a loan for my multimillion dollar business is completely bananas, right,
Speaker 5: like bananas, But that's so recent, right, And so I
Speaker 5: see that a lot in my work as a coach,
Speaker 5: that women are Women's thoughts about money are usually like,
Speaker 5: I don't understand it, it's too complicated. I'm irresponsible with money.
Speaker 5: I hear that all the time, and what I ask
Speaker 5: what that means? It just means, Oh, if I were responsible,
Speaker 5: I'd be saving more, I wouldn't be spending. That's not
Speaker 5: how men are taught to think about money, right, and
Speaker 5: that's not their big concern. Usually it's like that I'm
Speaker 5: irresponsible with it. It's like I should make more of it.
Speaker 5: Maybe it's not. Patriarch is not good for anybody like this.
Speaker 5: Gender split isn't great for men either, but I think
Speaker 5: particularly for women. And you know that's why I love
Speaker 5: the title of your book. It's like, yes, the frugal friends,
Speaker 5: but you're talking about how to buy what you love
Speaker 5: without going broke, Like it's not just being frugal like
Speaker 5: in and of itself to prove your virtuous enough is
Speaker 5: not You're not going to get a gold star from
Speaker 5: the universe that you've finally been an Epsteinius enough woman.
Speaker 3: It's a sell them what they want, give them what
Speaker 3: they need.
Speaker 4: Situation over here with his all of our podcast title
Speaker 4: and our book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it is so like crazy when when you're
Speaker 1: saying all this stuff, it's like, yes, we see it,
Speaker 1: and then we kind of see some people shifting, right,
Speaker 1: where women are trying to be like in the the
Speaker 1: socially male dominated make more money invest And then there's
Speaker 1: also like mindset things that come up with that that
Speaker 1: these women are like what do you see like when
Speaker 1: what are the difficulties when women try to like shift
Speaker 1: that narrative?
Speaker 5: Well, I think women in general are not socialized to
Speaker 5: take risks, right. So women are socialized into something that
Speaker 5: I call over responsibility, which means we are socialized to
Speaker 5: consider ourselves responsible for anything and everyone around us, and
Speaker 5: to think that we need to control everything and everyone
Speaker 5: around us and always be getting good outcomes or we've
Speaker 5: done something wrong. So this makes women often quite risk
Speaker 5: averse because if you take a risk, then you might
Speaker 5: not be able to control the outcome and get the
Speaker 5: correct outcome and be perfect at it, and so it
Speaker 5: seems safer to not even try. So it's like, you know,
Speaker 5: unwillingness to invest, because it feels safe for quote unquote
Speaker 5: to just put the money in a savings account because
Speaker 5: at least then there's no risk that you'll lose it.
Speaker 5: But of course you are passing up a huge risk
Speaker 5: of building it right, of it growing. And men are
Speaker 5: not socialized the same way around risk. Now, we also
Speaker 5: know that there's studies showing right that women actually make
Speaker 5: better investment managers than men. At One of the rationales
Speaker 5: is that they are better risk judges of risk, which
Speaker 5: I think shows that like women can if they are
Speaker 5: if they can shift their mindset enough to allow for
Speaker 5: some risk, it's like you're gonna get the best of
Speaker 5: both worlds. But the best investment managers aren't the people
Speaker 5: who are like, I'm taking no risks, I'm just putting
Speaker 5: the money in a savings account, which is like how
Speaker 5: I think women are socialized. And it ties into also
Speaker 5: the socialization that women still get around and numbers, right,
Speaker 5: being more like men. Boys are better at math, men
Speaker 5: are better at math, and so, and because women are
Speaker 5: socialized to be such kind of perfectionists and to always
Speaker 5: think that like they're not smart enough, they don't understand
Speaker 5: things anything that's at all challenging, which like, yeah, math
Speaker 5: sometimes is, so are a lot of things like learning
Speaker 5: about the investments in the stock market. It's a whole
Speaker 5: area of knowledge. It can be intimidating at first, but
Speaker 5: women are much more likely to internalize that, and so
Speaker 5: they have that feeling that we anyone might feel of like, oh,
Speaker 5: this is complicated and I got to learn a bunch
Speaker 5: of stuff, and they internalize that as like, oh, there's
Speaker 5: something wrong with me. I'mdumb. I don't understand this. It's
Speaker 5: too hard. It makes me feel anxious and bad about myself,
Speaker 5: so I'm just gonna ignore it.
Speaker 3: This is really helpful.
Speaker 4: I think the distinction that you made between managing versus
Speaker 4: earning and kind of the history behind that, because we
Speaker 4: do still see and I think this in some ways
Speaker 4: has been a bit of a shocker to people as
Speaker 4: we've talked about personal finance that women and do primarily
Speaker 4: manage the finances of the household. But you're kind of
Speaker 4: connecting the dots there on why that is and potentially
Speaker 4: even why we might have a bit more of a
Speaker 4: scarcity mindset when it comes to money because we're just
Speaker 4: managing this amount and maybe not necessarily focusing on where
Speaker 4: can we earn. That's not to say that, I mean
Speaker 4: a lot of the women who listen to our podcasts
Speaker 4: are earners for their families, but yet kind of helps
Speaker 4: to understand why maybe this connection to know how much
Speaker 4: can I get for how little? And how can I,
Speaker 4: you know, stretch this dollar, and how can I be
Speaker 4: as traditionally frugal as possible, maybe even borderline cheap. So
Speaker 4: I think that connection is really helpful and I think
Speaker 4: potentially could blend into something I know you've talked about
Speaker 4: a bit, just like the lies that women might be
Speaker 4: believing around money.
Speaker 3: What are you seeing that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I want to talk about the lies, but
Speaker 5: I think what you're saying is is important, Like women
Speaker 5: have always historically managed the household budget, right, But the
Speaker 5: question is, like, what about the rest of the money decisions,
Speaker 5: Like who's making the decisions about the investments, who's making
Speaker 5: the decisions about how much you spend on a house,
Speaker 5: Who's making the decisions about you know, the big picture expenses,
Speaker 5: the car, the school tuition, whatever. Right are you having
Speaker 5: an equal say in conversation about those things or are
Speaker 5: you assuming, you know, my husband probably has our retirement
Speaker 5: taken care of, like and that's not you know, even
Speaker 5: feminists can can be in this headspace because of that
Speaker 5: socialization we get and because we're so socialized to always
Speaker 5: know the right answer and always do things perfectly. And
Speaker 5: I see like even among entrepreneurs, but especially obviously among
Speaker 5: people who have more salary jobs. Women are socialized to
Speaker 5: like do a good job and you'll be rewarded and
Speaker 5: someone will give you the money, and then like you
Speaker 5: manage it right, And like that's the mindset shift we
Speaker 5: have to switch, which is like you're responsible for creating
Speaker 5: whatever amount of wealth or money you want to have,
Speaker 5: whether you're in a sellary position or you're an entrepreneur,
Speaker 5: or you're managing a household budget, you're a stay at
Speaker 5: home mom, Like whatever it is you have to have,
Speaker 5: you know, create an empowerment around that so that you
Speaker 5: aren't kind of emotionally in the state of like, oh,
Speaker 5: somebody else decides what I get and then I just
Speaker 5: get to manage it, which is kind of how women
Speaker 5: are socialized. Be grateful for what you have, don't want more, right,
Speaker 5: So that's one of the three money lies. Actually, is
Speaker 5: that wanting money or wanting to build wealth or caring
Speaker 5: about money is morally wrong and means something bad about you.
Speaker 5: And this is not just gender. This is really actually
Speaker 5: more of a like religious puritan kind of influence on
Speaker 5: our culture. But I think since women are socialized to
Speaker 5: kind of generally believe that they are always doing something
Speaker 5: wrong and always suspect and always probably being bad it
Speaker 5: just like I think it hits us harder, you know,
Speaker 5: And we see a lot more criticism of women who
Speaker 5: are financially ambitious than we do of men who are
Speaker 5: financially ambitious, by the studies showing that having children, right,
Speaker 5: will decrease a woman's earning and increase a man's earnings
Speaker 5: because now he's seen as like a provider and he'll
Speaker 5: get a raise without even trying. So that is so
Speaker 5: one of the money lies is that it means something
Speaker 5: bad about you. And I always just liked to this
Speaker 5: is where I also like to go to history because
Speaker 5: I just like to be like, let's think about where
Speaker 5: this came from. Like in Western culture, it was a
Speaker 5: bunch of lavishly, ridiculously wealthy Christian cardinals and popes living
Speaker 5: in palaces telling all the peasants that wanting money meant
Speaker 5: that they were bad, that that was sinful. Like meanwhile,
Speaker 5: they are like wearing velvet, living in marble with you know,
Speaker 5: a sumptuous lifestyle. So but this is just in the water,
Speaker 5: like it's all around us, and we just assume that
Speaker 5: it's true and we don't look at where does it
Speaker 5: come from? Right? Who told you that that was bad
Speaker 5: and how do they benefit from it? Right? If society,
Speaker 5: if the rich men in society are telling everybody else, women,
Speaker 5: other marchialized people, people of color that like wanting money
Speaker 5: is bad and sinful, but they seem to want and
Speaker 5: have a lot of money. Like something's not adding up.
Speaker 3: Here, right, Right? These two don't go together, right.
Speaker 5: Like who benefits from this? So that's a lie. Well,
Speaker 5: that's one lie. One of the lies we kind of
Speaker 5: spoke of it about is the idea that money is men's business,
Speaker 5: that men are are somehow more capable or more knowledgeable
Speaker 5: or more informed about it. And I mean, it may
Speaker 5: be true that men are receiving more useful instruction from
Speaker 5: their family or colleagues about it, but that's an accident
Speaker 5: of socialization, it's not inherent. And any you know, woman
Speaker 5: with a brain can read a book and learn about
Speaker 5: it too. So it's that that that sort of idea, right,
Speaker 5: And we link money in masculinity, right, Why would we
Speaker 5: think it's emasculating for a woman to earn more than
Speaker 5: her than her husband Because we've somehow connected these two things,
Speaker 5: that it would be that somehow virility and money go
Speaker 5: together a masculinity of money. So it's like very deeply integrated.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 5: You may not think that you think money's for men,
Speaker 5: But do you feel comfortable out earning your husband? Do
Speaker 5: you feel comfortable right being the primary bedwinner? Retiring your husband?
Speaker 5: Do people say to you like, oh, is he is
Speaker 5: he comfortable with that? Is it weird for him? Why
Speaker 5: are we asking that? Right? Nobody ever asks a woman
Speaker 5: who's staying home with the kids, is it weird for
Speaker 5: you that your husband makes more money than you? But
Speaker 5: people ask men that ask me how I know it
Speaker 5: is the primary breadwinnership.
Speaker 3: Oh dang.
Speaker 5: And my husband's like anytime somebody at a hotel, her,
Speaker 5: a restaurant talks to him, he's like, she's the bank.
Speaker 5: I'm just here to like carry her bags. Like he
Speaker 5: is not at all bothered, but people think he will be,
Speaker 5: and like that tells us something. Right, So that's two.
Speaker 5: And then the third one is the deck is stacked
Speaker 5: and so you may as well not even try so
Speaker 5: in it it's sort of like the first two or
Speaker 5: more I think believed by women who aren't aware of this,
Speaker 5: like conditioning. But then the third one I actually see
Speaker 5: more come up in women who have awareness of the conditioning,
Speaker 5: which is sort of like, oh wow, I see how
Speaker 5: messed up all this is, and so I'm not going
Speaker 5: to be able to get ahead or succeed. It is
Speaker 5: an old boys network. People don't believe that women can
Speaker 5: be their financial advisor and manage their money or you know,
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna be able to find a you know,
Speaker 5: men are socialized this way, so I'm not gonna be
Speaker 5: able to find a partner who will be comfortable with
Speaker 5: this or whatever. Right, And this is really a through
Speaker 5: line in all my work, not just about money. That
Speaker 5: one of the most insidious ways that socialization makes us
Speaker 5: passive is by making us believe that kind of everyone
Speaker 5: everywhere has these sexist beliefs, so there's sort of no point, right.
Speaker 5: It's like, if your boss is sexually harassing you, there's
Speaker 5: like no point in trying to get another job, because
Speaker 5: not only are you probably bad and stupid at an
Speaker 5: imposter and can't get one, but all the bosses will
Speaker 5: be like this. If you're in a relationship and someone
Speaker 5: is you know, with somebody who's very in a toxic
Speaker 5: masculine mindset and is treating you badly, well, what can
Speaker 5: you expect from straight men. They're all socialized this way.
Speaker 5: They're all terrible. There's no point, you know, find the best,
Speaker 5: settle for the best you can get. So you actually
Speaker 5: see this come up a lot, and I think that
Speaker 5: that's the in some ways, the biggest lie, because that's
Speaker 5: not true. Like there are bosses who won't promote you
Speaker 5: if you're a working mom, and there are bosses who will,
Speaker 5: and you have to work on your belief that there's
Speaker 5: better spaces out there for you. There are partners who
Speaker 5: are going to be emasculated if you make more money.
Speaker 5: There are partners who won't, but you have to believe
Speaker 5: that in order to believe that you can and that
Speaker 5: relationship and find someone like my husband who's thrilled to
Speaker 5: be retired and travel around with you, like if that's
Speaker 5: what you want, right, So, I think that is like
Speaker 5: one of the sneakiest I will say that I didn't
Speaker 5: put this in the book, but I think it's really
Speaker 5: relevant for this conversation, especially f you of more heighth
Speaker 5: earning women and women who are focused on building wealth.
Speaker 5: There's you know, when we split things up in this
Speaker 5: binary gendered way, it's bad for everybody. And one of
Speaker 5: the ways that I think it is detrimental that even
Speaker 5: like feminist or high performing women don't really think about
Speaker 5: is they don't question their own socialization that if they're
Speaker 5: straight women, specifically, that a man needs to be ambitious
Speaker 5: and high earning and like match them in order to
Speaker 5: be a legitimate partner. So I coach a lot of
Speaker 5: high powered women who have trouble quote unquote in dating
Speaker 5: because they they're traveling the world and being the CEO
Speaker 5: or speaking at the conferences whatever. And then they're like, well,
Speaker 5: I mean, my partner has to make at least as
Speaker 5: much money as I do. Why why does he need
Speaker 5: to make at least much money as you do? Is
Speaker 5: it to afford your lifestyle? Oh no, I can afford
Speaker 5: my lifestyle. I can support him in a whole family. Okay,
Speaker 5: why does he need to do that? Well? You know,
Speaker 5: so like that I want someone I can really respect, Like, okay,
Speaker 5: that's patriarchy right there. Like why does a man have
Speaker 5: to make a certain amount of money for you to
Speaker 5: respect him, see him as an equal, see him as
Speaker 5: worthy enough. I think other people will see him as
Speaker 5: valuable enough as your partner. So there's like internalized sexism
Speaker 5: that you know, high earning, high achieving, financially literate, financially
Speaker 5: savvy women have to do too. It's not if that's
Speaker 5: really what you want, fine, there's nothing wrong with that,
Speaker 5: But I just want you to like question that for yourself,
Speaker 5: Like I specifically did not want someone like that. I
Speaker 5: have a very demanding job, I work a lot, I've
Speaker 5: got we have step kids, Like I need my husband
Speaker 5: to be able to be the primary caregiver for his kids,
Speaker 5: and I want him to be able to have a
Speaker 5: more flexible schedule because I work a lot and I
Speaker 5: have to travel. And that's not nothing. That's the right way.
Speaker 5: But I do think there's a lot of internalized sexism
Speaker 5: that high power women don't see in themselves around their
Speaker 5: financial choices. And any you know, financial expert will tell
Speaker 5: you that who you marry or partner with is one
Speaker 5: of the biggest financial decisions for everything in your life.
Speaker 5: So yeah, like looking at your own thought process matters.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the same. But something that we
Speaker 1: have always said on the show is marry rich or
Speaker 1: marry capable.
Speaker 3: One or the other. I wonder if both are good,
Speaker 3: both are fine.
Speaker 1: Make sure it benefits you in some way, but don't
Speaker 1: marry somebody who is neither.
Speaker 5: Someone who you are not interested in or exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can appreciate all that you're describing with these lies,
Speaker 4: and honestly, I'm getting a little bit sweaty because I
Speaker 4: am noticing some of these things and myself and Cara,
Speaker 4: I am a licensed clinical social worker. I am supposed
Speaker 4: to know a ton about socialization and how that happens,
Speaker 4: and I think you are kind of unveiling even more.
Speaker 4: And I think we talk about money mindset all the time,
Speaker 4: and I think what you're describing here with exploring the
Speaker 4: ways in which we've been socialized as women and men
Speaker 4: as it relates to money, is another layer of our
Speaker 4: money mindset. I think I alongside my husband, we both
Speaker 4: earn money for our household, and yet I will still
Speaker 4: and sometimes it's in ingest, but obviously it's still there.
Speaker 4: I will say, how like Eric bought this and he
Speaker 4: bought that, even though we make about an equal amount
Speaker 4: in many years, I have made more, and I still
Speaker 4: will give him the credit for having like bought these
Speaker 4: different things. Again, some of it is I'm being funny
Speaker 4: about it, but obviously it's there for me and I
Speaker 4: will still, I guess, behave and think in some of
Speaker 4: the ways that you are describing because of where we've
Speaker 4: come from in history that I'm not even fully aware of.
Speaker 4: And I think this kind of then leads to one
Speaker 4: of the questions. And You've touched on this, but I'm
Speaker 4: curious if there's more that you would have to say
Speaker 4: about it in regards to when we find ourselves operating
Speaker 4: out of these socialized ideas that aren't even true for
Speaker 4: us individually, like believing that men are the ones who
Speaker 4: earn and we're the ones who manage, even when we
Speaker 4: are both earning and managing. Like some of the lies
Speaker 4: you're talking about, I see them in myself, even though
Speaker 4: they're not actually true for me on an individual level
Speaker 4: actually my experiences. Any ideas on how we can kind
Speaker 4: of bring some congruence there and how that might help
Speaker 4: our finances.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I love congruence totally A licensed social work
Speaker 5: or a therapist word, and I think this is totally
Speaker 5: com I mean, I have a we just finished doing
Speaker 5: a beta round of a program for therapists. Because this
Speaker 5: kind of socialization, deep socializations have is just not covered
Speaker 5: in a lot of places. So it's like completely normal.
Speaker 5: I just want to say, like just being a being
Speaker 5: a therapist, being a social worker, being a coach doesn't
Speaker 5: mean that you, you know, have uncovered all this stuff.
Speaker 5: And I'm always uncovering still. Like becoming a stepmom. I
Speaker 5: thought I had done all this work and I didn't
Speaker 5: originally want children. I thought i'd really divested from that,
Speaker 5: and then I'm like, well, all these all thoughts about
Speaker 5: like parenting are coming up that are totally from my socialization.
Speaker 5: So I focus a lot on kind of cognitive mindset works.
Speaker 5: So my advice illness is always about coming up with
Speaker 5: thoughts you can believe now that you're going to practice
Speaker 5: to rewire your thought patterns. That's something I get into
Speaker 5: a lot in my book take Back Your Brain. I
Speaker 5: have a podcast called on f your Brain. We can't
Speaker 5: say the whole word here, but you can all fill
Speaker 5: that in. There is an asterisk in the title when
Speaker 5: you type it in, and so I talk a lot
Speaker 5: there about how to do this. But I think the
Speaker 5: thing that's really different about my approach from maybe other
Speaker 5: money coaches people may have heard from, Well, number one,
Speaker 5: I'm not just a money coach, but is that I
Speaker 5: don't believe in like manifestation and affirmation. So I am
Speaker 5: not going to say, like what you do is you
Speaker 5: look in the mirror every morning you say I am
Speaker 5: a gazillionairess it really, I just like that's like telling
Speaker 5: people what you do if you want to run a marathon,
Speaker 5: is you just walk out your door and run twenty
Speaker 5: six miles and believe you can do it. Like, that's
Speaker 5: not what happens. You have to train your body for
Speaker 5: a marathon, and you have to train your brain to
Speaker 5: think differently. Your brain is part of your body.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 5: Yes, So we're when you're starting, it might be thoughts
Speaker 5: that are like, it's possible that I am sometimes irresponsible
Speaker 5: with money and sometimes responsible with money, Like really, even
Speaker 5: though I don't personally even believe there's such a thing
Speaker 5: as irresponsible with money, that's a made up word, and
Speaker 5: analysis you get to decide what that means. When we're
Speaker 5: when we're talking about like building a new belief, we
Speaker 5: just got to start really small, So it might look
Speaker 5: like that. It might look like it's possible that I
Speaker 5: can learn about the stock market, or you know, I
Speaker 5: used to think that I couldn't understand criminal procedure law,
Speaker 5: and now I do, so I can probably understand the
Speaker 5: stock market also, like whatever. It's very individualized to the person.
Speaker 5: But the way we create that congruence is just shifting
Speaker 5: the way that we think. But I think that the
Speaker 5: reason that I love the historical and anthropological perspective that
Speaker 5: I think is missing from other kind of coaching frameworks
Speaker 5: is that it just helps you understand where these thoughts
Speaker 5: came from. You know, I think a lot of when
Speaker 5: I came into the coaching world, the message was sort
Speaker 5: of like, it doesn't matter where where the thoughts came from,
Speaker 5: you just need to change them. And that's true. But
Speaker 5: the human mind just has its own weird biases, and
Speaker 5: one of them, I I think, is that in the
Speaker 5: absence of another credible explanation, it will just tend to
Speaker 5: believe that something is true. So like it's like, I
Speaker 5: must be having this thought because it's true. Nobody can
Speaker 5: give me another explanation, so it must be true. That's
Speaker 5: why I'm thinking it. But when you can look at
Speaker 5: it and be like, oh, I was specifically taught that
Speaker 5: explicitly implicitly by the whole culture around me. Oh, now
Speaker 5: you just get that little bit of distance that you
Speaker 5: know as a therapist. Is like the first step to
Speaker 5: any shift, right, is like not being so identified with
Speaker 5: your thought as true. So all the kind of usual
Speaker 5: cognitive techiques you might use, like looking for evidence is
Speaker 5: contrary to what you believe, looking for examples in your
Speaker 5: life of shifts or skills that you can apply to this, Like,
Speaker 5: it's just cognitive work to like change it little bit
Speaker 5: by little bit. Yeah, I have.
Speaker 1: I have found that in looking for that replacement belief,
Speaker 1: like to change how I feel about anything. Really, Like
Speaker 1: it does take time to train myself to look for it.
Speaker 1: Like that's the biggest thing. Like I'm sitting in this
Speaker 1: negative thought about how much money I make and then
Speaker 1: ignoring the fact that oh, somebody just said that they
Speaker 1: would pay me to like write this right and like
Speaker 1: coming the same day. So clearly there are other things
Speaker 1: on other days that are coming that I'm just not
Speaker 1: paying attention to. So yeah, like it is such a
Speaker 1: like a training.
Speaker 5: So your brain is a selection bias, right, so your
Speaker 5: brain or confirmation bias. Really, so your brain will only
Speaker 5: bring to your attention what matches what it already believes. Right,
Speaker 5: This is why like your partner can get their haircut
Speaker 5: and you don't notice for three weeks because your brain
Speaker 5: is like filling in the gaps until you happen to,
Speaker 5: like all of a sudden get it. Yeah, the same thing,
Speaker 5: like your brain will look for what and yeah, you're right,
Speaker 5: has not to do with the money. If I coach
Speaker 5: somebody who thinks like I'm too old to find a partner, right,
Speaker 5: they will constantly see all the people finding partners when
Speaker 5: they're young, and see all the people who are older
Speaker 5: and single, and they will like not even register the
Speaker 5: news paper article about so and so finding love and
Speaker 5: eighty right, your brain just filters it out. So that's
Speaker 5: why looking for I mean, I am often given people
Speaker 5: giving people coaching homework that's like, Okay, go home and
Speaker 5: make a list of all the times that you made
Speaker 5: a decision with money that did work out because people
Speaker 5: because people come in and they're like, I'm so irresponsible
Speaker 5: with money. Here's my list of evidence of how I've
Speaker 5: made bad financial choices. And yes, we're going to work
Speaker 5: on changing that thought. But also let's at least get
Speaker 5: a real picture, like what are all the good financial
Speaker 5: choices you made quote unquote good? So yeah, absolutely, it's
Speaker 5: like that slow to retraining of your brains gathering of
Speaker 5: additional evidence, Like you're literally I mean just think about
Speaker 5: how hard it was to like learn to read. You're
Speaker 5: like literally teaching your brain how to think a new way.
Speaker 5: It takes a minute.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What so when women come to you and they have
Speaker 1: this like third lie, like, I feel like that's more
Speaker 1: where I lean where I feel like the chips are
Speaker 1: truly like stacked against us as women, Like where's the
Speaker 1: what are like some tips or advice that you give
Speaker 1: the you know, people lying on the other side.
Speaker 5: Yeah. So I think there's two important pieces of it.
Speaker 5: One is exactly what we just talked about in terms
Speaker 5: of evidence gathering, Like, Okay, is it impossible for female
Speaker 5: entrepreneurs to succeed? Like go home and google. Right, there
Speaker 5: are obviously women entrepreneurs who succeed, and you can find
Speaker 5: stories of people who succeeded. Yes, some of them had
Speaker 5: trust funds and some of them had ten dollars in
Speaker 5: their bank account. That's true regardless of gender. Right. So
Speaker 5: part of it is like what I find is that
Speaker 5: it's looking for evidence is important even if it's true
Speaker 5: that it's a minority, because what I find, what I
Speaker 5: have found anecdotally. I don't have a name for this phenomenon.
Speaker 5: Maybe there is. One is that people, well people who
Speaker 5: are really resilient and want to go out and do
Speaker 5: something don't have to believe that it's easy or that
Speaker 5: it's you know, guaranteed, even they just have to believe
Speaker 5: that it's not impossible. Like where people get stuck is
Speaker 5: one it's like, well, it's hopeless or it's impossible, so
Speaker 5: I can't do anything. I think that humans like the
Speaker 5: most poisonous thought to humans is sort of I can't
Speaker 5: do anything about this, like I'm you know, I'm powerless.
Speaker 5: That's what creates that like freeze and overwhelmed response. When
Speaker 5: the story is like, oh this can be done. It
Speaker 5: might be hard, but I'm up for the challenge. That's
Speaker 5: a very different kind of reaction. So part of it
Speaker 5: is that. The other important piece, though, is the kind
Speaker 5: of traditional mindset piece of like why do you want
Speaker 5: this thing anyway? Right? If you're telling yourself, well, I
Speaker 5: need to make this amount of money to feel good
Speaker 5: about myself, then yes, it's going to feel like very
Speaker 5: overwhelming and your brain is going to fixate on how
Speaker 5: it might not be possible. It's like you've made the
Speaker 5: stakes way too high, and so we have to understand
Speaker 5: why we're trying to get to a goal and why
Speaker 5: it matters and what meaning we're making of it. But
Speaker 5: if you've cleaned all that up, then I think just
Speaker 5: the evidence that it is possible is all you really
Speaker 5: need to train your brain on. But you have to
Speaker 5: do that first step as long as you're trying to
Speaker 5: get You know, if you associate money with emotional safety,
Speaker 5: with acceptance, with self pride, with proving yourself to your parents,
Speaker 5: with whatever, that's going to stymy you more times than
Speaker 5: that not everybody. Some people are able to run on
Speaker 5: revenge and shame, but those.
Speaker 4: People don't constant dosing who that works for.
Speaker 5: But I always say to people in coaching, it's like, well,
Speaker 5: you came to coaching, so obviously that doesn't work for you.
Speaker 5: I'm going to need some other kind of fuel for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and those things what you just listened off,
Speaker 1: I was like, that sounds like a whole lifetime of
Speaker 1: navigating like those things, because they are just so defeated.
Speaker 5: And we live in a capitalist society in which there
Speaker 5: are ways in which your physical safety is financially related,
Speaker 5: so that part is true, and that still doesn't determine
Speaker 5: your feelings like there are people with what usually there
Speaker 5: are people with way less of their bank account than
Speaker 5: you who feel fine about what's there, and your thought
Speaker 5: is I'm about to right because of your expectations, your assumptions,
Speaker 5: your you know, attachment to a specific standard of living
Speaker 5: or whatever. Right, it'll often tury not when I coach
Speaker 5: people that, I'm like, okay, if you did lose your job, like,
Speaker 5: let's literally go all the way through, then what And
Speaker 5: often most of the time the answer is like, well, yeah,
Speaker 5: of course I could go stay on my mother's couch
Speaker 5: and look for a new job and build it that right.
Speaker 5: So it's the sort of you have to like play
Speaker 5: it all the way out because I think one of
Speaker 5: these people get stuck with money stuff and stay in
Speaker 5: this panic state. Is that they're catastrophizing but not far enough.
Speaker 5: They don't like go all the way, yeah, like what
Speaker 5: would actually happen, Like how have I dealt with hard
Speaker 5: things before? So they don't really, so they just stop
Speaker 5: at the catastrophe and then they don't look at the aftermath.
Speaker 3: Yeah, take it all the way and then and then what.
Speaker 5: Yeah, catastrophized Strategically, we got to go all the way
Speaker 5: then what And most of the time, if you had
Speaker 5: the wherewithal to get out a coach and call all
Speaker 5: that stuff, you also have the wherewithal to figure out
Speaker 5: what you do after that. Obviously, like some people don't
Speaker 5: have those resources. We need social policy for that reason.
Speaker 5: But many, most of us, especially people if you're listening
Speaker 5: to a podcast on a coaching call, you do have
Speaker 5: some support in your life. So what would look?
Speaker 4: Oh beautiful? Do you know what else? Is the opposite
Speaker 4: of catastrophizing? Completely full of power? Something that I love
Speaker 4: to engage in every week.
Speaker 1: Same the bill of the week.
Speaker 2: That's right, it's time for the best minute of your
Speaker 2: entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name
Speaker 2: is Williams. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your
Speaker 2: car died and you're happy to not have to pay
Speaker 2: that bill anymore. Duck bills, Buffalo bills, Bill Clinton, this
Speaker 2: is the bill of the week.
Speaker 1: Every week we yell at our guests and our listeners
Speaker 1: and we ask them to share with us their bill
Speaker 1: of the week, and we would love to hear yours.
Speaker 5: Absolutely So I just bought a house. And this is
Speaker 5: like I was about to say my husband and I
Speaker 5: bought a house, but that's not true. I bought a house.
Speaker 3: Yeah, make sure the language is accurate.
Speaker 5: I bought a house and an upstate And I noticed,
Speaker 5: like even now, even though I'm the person who makes
Speaker 5: some money, even though I run a multisone figure business,
Speaker 5: like all these things, I still in my brain am like,
Speaker 5: is it grown up gonna say that this is a
Speaker 5: good idea or not? Like how do I write?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 5: Is this? Is it responsible? Is this a good idea?
Speaker 5: Is this a right amount for a house? Like? Right,
Speaker 5: I'm still like in my mind sort of have I
Speaker 5: still have that like is somebody gonna check my work?
Speaker 5: Or I'm just gonna be a lot? Which is like
Speaker 5: I'm forty three years old. You're like I could have
Speaker 5: an adult child by now, But but I think that
Speaker 5: women have more of that socialization because we're so socialized
Speaker 5: to like always be looking to an authority for approval, right,
Speaker 5: And so being in this situation, I'll ask my husband
Speaker 5: sometimes he's like, it's your money. I don't know. I
Speaker 5: like the house, but like you got to decide, and
Speaker 5: so I like that was a very fun and big
Speaker 5: bill to pay, but also an opportunity for me to
Speaker 5: be like, oh, this is so interesting and this is
Speaker 5: what I think is useful for everybody. When your brain
Speaker 5: is like, I don't know, maybe this was irresponsible, right,
Speaker 5: Like how would you know? Like what could the what
Speaker 5: are the conditions in which I think my brain would
Speaker 5: say one hundred percent, I absolutely feel good, this is
Speaker 5: a responsible, excellent choice, no other approval necessary, Like, there
Speaker 5: are none, there are no circumstances in which my brain
Speaker 5: is going to spit that out on the first try.
Speaker 5: So I can't let that stop me. I just have
Speaker 5: to do what I can think of to decide if
Speaker 5: it seems reasonable. And then, most importantly, which is what
Speaker 5: I teach all women about risk, Like I have to
Speaker 5: decide ahead of time what I'm going to say to
Speaker 5: myself if there's a problem them down the line. What
Speaker 5: if we do end up wanting to sell the house
Speaker 5: and we lose a little money on it, Like, then
Speaker 5: what am I going to say to myself? Right? I
Speaker 5: got to decide ahead of time that's not going to
Speaker 5: be See women shouldn't have money or whatever it is
Speaker 5: that I am.
Speaker 1: I'm going to think, Yeah, there's space to make mistakes, right, so,
Speaker 1: and I, yeah, that's something as perfectionists we don't want
Speaker 1: to do. And we think that other people, namely men,
Speaker 1: get it right the first time. But I think they
Speaker 1: just don't talk about the mistakes like they just see.
Speaker 5: Them in that same way like yeah, I mean when
Speaker 5: people ask me what's my biggest failure, I actually should
Speaker 5: be like, wait what, because I don't think of them
Speaker 5: as failures in that same way. But I have a
Speaker 5: whole podcast about like choosing the amount of mistakes you're
Speaker 5: willing to make, and so because we I think we
Speaker 5: all think that the amount is zero, ideally we will
Speaker 5: make zero mistakes. And I had this conversation actually with
Speaker 5: my husband, who, despite being socialized as a man, hasn't
Speaker 5: done ten years of thought work and it is like
Speaker 5: more risk averse because he was sort of like, well,
Speaker 5: I don't know, like shouldn't we look at like one
Speaker 5: hundred houses first, or like how do we know? You know?
Speaker 5: And I was like, I'm actually just willing to make
Speaker 5: eighty percent mistakes to get the kind of life and
Speaker 5: experiences in creativity and growth that I will get from
Speaker 5: the twenty that end up working out, Like I'm willing
Speaker 5: to make more mistakes than I make good decisions because
Speaker 5: I'll still at least be I'll have gotten all of
Speaker 5: the growth from that twenty as opposed to people who
Speaker 5: are like, I'm only going to make two decisions in
Speaker 5: my life and they both need to be one hundred
Speaker 5: percent right. Yeah, it's like, what is your acceptable error rate?
Speaker 5: What is your acceptable mistake rate with your risk rate?
Speaker 3: I love so good that permission. That is so helpful.
Speaker 4: You know, we talk about defining are enough on the
Speaker 4: one hand, but I think also being able to define yeah,
Speaker 4: permissible errors on the other and even on a much
Speaker 4: smaller scale. I think we've talked about in the past
Speaker 4: feeling like I have felt myself, I need every single
Speaker 4: purchase to be as wise and the best possible efficient
Speaker 4: deal I could find, Or who am I to have
Speaker 4: frugal friends? Podcasts like they all need to be just
Speaker 4: like killer spending decisions, and in.
Speaker 3: Reality it can't. It cannot be like that. And I
Speaker 3: think giving myself the permission to let go of that
Speaker 3: idea that sometimes I might be spendy, sometimes I might
Speaker 3: have bought something that I should have returned or I
Speaker 3: shouldn't have even gotten in the first place.
Speaker 4: But this is how I'm learning. And sometimes it's just
Speaker 4: okay to buy the thing that you needed in the moment,
Speaker 4: and it's okay the better deal came up a few
Speaker 4: a few weeks later. But the other it's a much
Speaker 4: smaller scale.
Speaker 5: It'll keep you, but it's no. I think that's crucial
Speaker 5: because if you think about it this way, if what
Speaker 5: if your thought is, if you get too attached to
Speaker 5: having to always have been right about your financial decisions,
Speaker 5: then you actually are not able to grow or make
Speaker 5: new decisions right. So if I decide, like like when
Speaker 5: we moved into we live in a rental, and when
Speaker 5: we moved in, I spend a bunch of money like
Speaker 5: decorating it make you nice. I care a lot about
Speaker 5: like what my living place looks like. I work from home.
Speaker 5: I really am like not a gurorophobic, but I am
Speaker 5: a homebody, like I just want to look so and
Speaker 5: I spend money on that where a lot of other
Speaker 5: people would not have because it's a rental and we
Speaker 5: didn't know how long we'd be there and now we're
Speaker 5: going to move. And I have zero regret about that.
Speaker 5: But I also would not want to be someone would
Speaker 5: not want to live my life in subtry where I
Speaker 5: was like, Well, even though it would make a lot
Speaker 5: more sense for us to move because I can save
Speaker 5: on taxes if we move, because we can take that
Speaker 5: money and put it into an investment, because I can
Speaker 5: build more wealth with this move, I'm not going to
Speaker 5: do that because that would make like the expenses I
Speaker 5: spent on the rental a waste. Right, I have to
Speaker 5: justify that decision. So I have to stick with this
Speaker 5: decision and to justify that sunk costs. I think that's
Speaker 5: an eerr A lot of people make if they don't
Speaker 5: want to admit that, like, oh, maybe I quote unquote
Speaker 5: wasted money. Maybe I bought a dress. I mean you
Speaker 5: can do it with a simple purchase. Maybe I bought
Speaker 5: a dress and I don't actually in two years, my
Speaker 5: style is different and I don't actually like it, and
Speaker 5: I would like to just get rid of it. But
Speaker 5: I won't let myself change my style or like evolve,
Speaker 5: because then that makes this a waste, such a gay
Speaker 5: And when you actually pennies wise pound foolish.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you actually are defining your style and not
Speaker 1: just being at the whim of influence, when you're buying
Speaker 1: that stuff. You can feel more confident about the purchase
Speaker 1: and the giving up of it because you know you're
Speaker 1: not wasting you didn't. There's not like ten dresses because
Speaker 1: you were influenced by an Instagram influencer.
Speaker 5: Like act on every impulse, right, it's just.
Speaker 1: But you can make these decisions that you might internalize
Speaker 1: as like a mistake or a sunk cost, but it's
Speaker 1: really an informed, intentional decision. So there's just like a
Speaker 1: futle spector grow right.
Speaker 5: If you're not going to ever, you can't grow if
Speaker 5: your number one priority is making sure that you never
Speaker 5: think differently about it is decision you made in the past.
Speaker 4: This has been a jam packed Bill of the week.
Speaker 4: Krank you so much. No no apology is needed here.
Speaker 4: I love you all listening. Have a bill you want
Speaker 4: to share, If it's about how you're working through some
Speaker 4: of your mindsets or socialization around money and the ways
Speaker 4: in which you're responding to thinking that you need some
Speaker 4: authority figure to come in and tell you if you're
Speaker 4: making right decisions or if you too are finding the
Speaker 4: permission to just buy what you love and it's okay
Speaker 4: if you make mistakes or your name is Bill frualfriendspodcast
Speaker 4: dot com slash Bill, leave us your bill.
Speaker 3: We can't wait for it. And now it's time for
Speaker 3: fighting around shoes.
Speaker 1: Yes, we do all our own sound effects.
Speaker 5: That's amazing. I know that was going to happen. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I like it. Okay, I love so criticle. You don't
Speaker 5: have to pay up.
Speaker 3: Money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So this is our vulnerability around and we
Speaker 1: will all share, but Carl will have you go first.
Speaker 1: What's one money belief you've personally had to unlearn as
Speaker 1: a woman, and how did that shift the impact or
Speaker 1: shift impact your financial decisions.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I have a whole podcast that was about this.
Speaker 5: I grew up. Oh my god, there's so many. Okay,
Speaker 5: I need to do two really fast because they're both
Speaker 5: ones I've talked about. So it's really just here's how
Speaker 5: these I experienced these. So Number one, I thought money
Speaker 5: was bad and people wanted money was bad. I grew
Speaker 5: up in a family with a one parent was an entrepreneur,
Speaker 5: one parent was a social justice lawyer, so like, very
Speaker 5: different situations, and I definitely thought like, yeah, people care
Speaker 5: about money are bad. Money is bad. That means something
Speaker 5: bad about you. And then I decided to start a business.
Speaker 5: It's very hard to run a business when you have
Speaker 5: that thought. People try, I coached them, it's very difficult.
Speaker 5: So I really had to change that whole mindset in
Speaker 5: order to create a business. And of course the irony
Speaker 5: is that I was working as a nonprofit lawyer and academic,
Speaker 5: and I think I was doing important work. But I
Speaker 5: have now helped literally millions of people who listened to
Speaker 5: my and read my book and come through my programs
Speaker 5: because I was willing to change that thought and have
Speaker 5: a business and pursue a profit in addition to my mission.
Speaker 5: So that was a huge one. And the second one
Speaker 5: was like, I've definitely had many variations of the like
Speaker 5: I'm not good with money thought, I can't understand spreadsheets.
Speaker 5: You know, I had no business background, I didn't have
Speaker 5: an MBA. I went to law school. I was a
Speaker 5: reproductive rights attorney. So I had to undo a lot
Speaker 5: of that like socialization of like it still only this
Speaker 5: year have I truly embraced spreadsheets and like really am
Speaker 5: willing to be sent a spreadsheet and look at it
Speaker 5: and be like I can understand this. This year I've
Speaker 5: gotten really deep into like my the business finances in
Speaker 5: a different way. So I'm like still on doing that
Speaker 5: work and seeing myself as like an authority and able
Speaker 5: to make those good decisions and make investment decisions in
Speaker 5: my business. Like I think that's ongoing work.
Speaker 3: Wow, lovely, Yes, all right, Jill investing.
Speaker 4: I have totally internalized that investing is not for me.
Speaker 4: Leave it with the finance bros. They know what they're
Speaker 4: talking about, and I am continuing to unwork this. I
Speaker 4: have now begun to invest, but and have understood more
Speaker 4: and more than most of these finance bros. Actually have
Speaker 4: no idea what they're talking about.
Speaker 5: A Chad who went to Boden does not know more
Speaker 5: about investing than you can figure out.
Speaker 3: Yes, and that's been so helpful.
Speaker 4: So there's like been extra little gifts and treasures for
Speaker 4: me along the way when I can understand and then
Speaker 4: I can know that you are talking out the side
Speaker 4: of your face. But everyone's like fallen for it, and
Speaker 4: I just get to smile.
Speaker 1: I love that for you. For me, it was actually
Speaker 1: this unlearning of I have to be the breadwinner in
Speaker 1: order to be worthy. For a while, I was the breadwinner,
Speaker 1: and then when we got the book deal, I stopped
Speaker 1: freelance writing, and so I didn't have that like main
Speaker 1: source of my income because I really felt passionate about
Speaker 1: this book and like putting everything into it and putting
Speaker 1: the marketing in and also I like I had a
Speaker 1: baby too last year, so like that was part of it.
Speaker 1: But I for the last for last year and this
Speaker 1: year have made less than my husband, and it has
Speaker 1: been hard for me. Like he doesn't care, he doesn't
Speaker 1: care if I make more than him, less than him.
Speaker 1: He's detached, he's attached from that, right, it's me and
Speaker 1: I feel like I am less worthy because I make
Speaker 1: less money, Like my worth is tied to my income.
Speaker 1: And so I've really had to work through the past
Speaker 1: two years just saying like, yes, we have always had enough.
Speaker 1: We have never missed a bill. Right, it's we are
Speaker 1: okay with me, you know, doing less work, making less money,
Speaker 1: and also being able to like drop off my kids
Speaker 1: and pick them up every day and doing this kind
Speaker 1: of traditional housewife thing that I didn't see myself ever doing.
Speaker 3: You are not a traditional house I know that your mouth.
Speaker 5: I see this in entrepreneurs too. It's like you're actually
Speaker 5: making an investment in a longer term wealth building project,
Speaker 5: which is writing your book. Presumably we all hope that's
Speaker 5: what our books will do on some level. Yeah, I've
Speaker 5: just been through this, whether they do or don't like,
Speaker 5: but that's one of those risks, right I with mine,
Speaker 5: I was like, this is like I'm building a factory,
Speaker 5: Like I'm spending all this time and money creating this
Speaker 5: thing and not doing as much in my business. But
Speaker 5: when we're so socialized to be like, no, the money
Speaker 5: this year is what determines my worth, like we actually
Speaker 5: that's another like penny wise pound foolish thing where we
Speaker 5: hold ourselves back from way we could be even aside
Speaker 5: from all the non financial reasons, just even financially, right,
Speaker 5: if we're too tied to the like what's happening today,
Speaker 5: what's happening this week, what's happening this year, what's happening
Speaker 5: right now? That's what matters, then we hold ourselves back
Speaker 5: from investing in like longer term projects that take longer
Speaker 5: to pay off.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's where I'm at. Oh, Caara, this
Speaker 3: has been so life giving.
Speaker 1: Yeah, personally, it's one of them our main I'm going
Speaker 1: to guide for this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So thank you so much for sharing all well,
Speaker 4: not even all of your wisdom, a smidgeon of it.
Speaker 4: If people do want more from you, where can they
Speaker 4: get that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, first of all, you guys are going to
Speaker 5: come on my podcast. We're going to talk about dieting
Speaker 5: and budgeting. So I'm very excited about that. Come subscribe
Speaker 5: to f your Brains, you get that conversation, and then
Speaker 5: you can find me at School of New School Ofnewfeminist Thought.
Speaker 5: Dot com is our website. My podcast is on your
Speaker 5: Brain or just search my name. There's no one else
Speaker 5: named Carlo and I will come up nice and your
Speaker 5: book and my book go. Yes, right, I have a book,
Speaker 5: Your Times Best Brain. That is the cheapest, fastest way
Speaker 5: anywhere books are sold.
Speaker 3: Lovely, Thanks so much, Kara, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I truly love and feel seen when I can hear
Speaker 1: somebody talking about these things that we are thinking and
Speaker 1: feeling and where their roots come from. That I didn't
Speaker 1: just make all this stuff up in my head. But
Speaker 1: this is because of the culture that we live in.
Speaker 1: And that's not an excuse, but it is an opportunity
Speaker 1: to learn and build based on the knowledge that we
Speaker 1: now have.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it gives voice and context to our experiences which
Speaker 4: I think can always help us and moving forward. I
Speaker 4: think to know where we curve cly are and where
Speaker 4: we're going. It's important to know where we've come from. Again,
Speaker 4: not to put all of our experiences hang it on
Speaker 4: the coat rack of oh because of everything that happened
Speaker 4: in the past, but it does shed light on where
Speaker 4: we find ourselves now and can help give us the
Speaker 4: tools that we need to be able to respond in
Speaker 4: ways that make sense for us. That is person in
Speaker 4: environment to a tea and my social Workhart loves it.
Speaker 4: You know what I also love is when you all
Speaker 4: listen to our podcast and give us reviews like this
Speaker 4: one from m in Florida, who says say no to
Speaker 4: impulse buys five stars. Loved this podcast. You girls were
Speaker 4: spot on about combating impulse buying with hobbies. I used
Speaker 4: to be a shopaholic, but hobbies have now taken over
Speaker 4: the shop till you drop urge. Currently feeling that shopping
Speaker 4: void calligraphy, embroidery, adult coloring, puzzles, scrabble, baking, juicing, journaling, weightlifting,
Speaker 4: hoop blah, all done with bare minimal supplies and self
Speaker 4: taught thanks to ig YouTube and TikTok, so looking forward
Speaker 4: to your upcoming buck Oh my lord, M, you're also
Speaker 4: going to love our next episode. It's all about impulse shopping.
Speaker 1: But this is fantastic and I love the caveat you made,
Speaker 1: all done with bare minimal supplies and self taught because
Speaker 1: this is we love trying new things, right. You've got
Speaker 1: to try a lot of things to figure out what
Speaker 1: works for you. The mistake people make is they'll go
Speaker 1: out and buy all the supplies before they know if
Speaker 1: it works for them. You start like M with self taught,
Speaker 1: all the bare minimals things, and then whichever one's really
Speaker 1: stick with you, those are the ones you invest in.
Speaker 1: So great job, em.
Speaker 3: You list it off quite a lot of.
Speaker 1: I want to get into in the new year. Oh fine, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm excited about it. Well, thank you all so much
Speaker 1: for listening. And if this is inspiring you to leave
Speaker 1: a review just for the show altogether, or if there's
Speaker 1: a specific episode that resonated with you, that's another great
Speaker 1: way to be able to leave a review. It'll help
Speaker 1: new listeners know where they should start, which episode is
Speaker 1: a real banger, and that helps them and it helps us.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much. Say next time.
Speaker 1: Grugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
Speaker 3: So this is challenging me to change my language about
Speaker 3: who pays for things. That's so interesting.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, like that was a joke that you made,
Speaker 1: like that you say he paid for it because he
Speaker 1: makes money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 4: So I think that's like, oh man, this is really
Speaker 4: interesting to kind of get into the weeds of my psyche.
Speaker 4: I feel like I've even kind of made comments, maybe
Speaker 4: even less jokeye to Eric, like I don't know, like
Speaker 4: thanks for buying that, or thanks for like this or that.
Speaker 4: And while I appreciate what he brings to the table,
Speaker 4: I do think in some ways it might kind of
Speaker 4: take away from how I also contribute financially. And so, yeah,
Speaker 4: I still want mutual respect. I feel like we totally
Speaker 4: have that in our relationship. But I think it's causing
Speaker 4: me to think through, well, in what ways can I
Speaker 4: kind of challenge some of these things. I might be
Speaker 4: giving it an unequal measure, maybe even like an uncollaborative measure,
Speaker 4: And in what ways in my own was pressuring him
Speaker 4: ooh by saying that that like ooh, he is the
Speaker 4: one responsible for the different things it's almost like negating
Speaker 4: that I work, but also then potentially putting more pressure
Speaker 4: on him that these things do need to be provided
Speaker 4: for by him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting thought, Like she said, like these
Speaker 1: ideas hurt both of us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: Travis and I have had a lot of conversations about
Speaker 1: my feelings of like being not good enough because I
Speaker 1: had to take a pay cut or I chose to
Speaker 1: take a pay cut.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a tough one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he's always been like so supportive, but it's
Speaker 1: really just a mind bend for me. I think trying
Speaker 1: like having like moved out of my childhood home at
Speaker 1: sixteen and being well it just turned seventeen and having
Speaker 1: to like be on my own and providing for myself
Speaker 1: since then. I think that is where a lot of
Speaker 1: that has come from. And for the first time in
Speaker 1: my life, I can I don't have to contribute, So
Speaker 1: that makes me feel like what am I doing? And
Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing. I'm right, I you know,
Speaker 1: I'm creating something. I think we'll have a longer lasting
Speaker 1: effect than I will. But it's hard, yeah, because I
Speaker 1: believe those money lies.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a whole other vulnerability.
Speaker 3: Ye, vulnerability.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel that too. That's we could talk for
Speaker 4: probably so much longer. But I'm gonna I'm gonna not
Speaker 4: do that. Save my voice.
Speaker 1: I am going I am going to just be thankful
Speaker 1: that it's just another validation to release those maybe socialized thoughts.
Speaker 4: Well understand where they came from first. I think that's
Speaker 4: that's one of the things too, when people say, like,
Speaker 4: you know, change your mindset, change the way you think,
Speaker 4: I think it's really hard to do that until we
Speaker 4: really understand where is this thinking pattern coming from. To
Speaker 4: help I think knowledge can help us to then reframe
Speaker 4: and shift when we're really able to get to the
Speaker 4: root of here's why it's inaccurate.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh okay, Yeah,