1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: listening to stuff I've never told Tom, and today we're 3 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: talking about a little website you might have heard of 4 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: called Wikipedia. Do you use Wikipedia a lot? Bridget? Um, 5 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: I use it a fair amount, usually something related to 6 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,639 Speaker 1: was so and so in that movie or what year 7 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: did X Y Z random thing come out? When I 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: was teaching, it was sort of the bane of my 9 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: existence because we'd always drill into students like, do not 10 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: use Wikipedia, it's not a good source. Yeah. Yeah, I 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: also use it mostly for pop culture questions. I think 12 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: the last two things I looked up on Wikipedia were 13 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: apparently there was a law suit involving the script of 14 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: Jingle all the Way, so I wanted to get to 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: the bottom of that. And then I wanted to figure 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: out if I had understood the plot of this horror 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: movie I was watching called Triangle, and that it wasn't 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: just my four am brain that was confused. Um. Yeah, 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: So mostly pop culture stuff, But I do use it 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: quite a bit, and we're not the only ones. Uh. 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: Probably people might use it for different things than that, 22 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: but a lot of people use Wikipedia. It is the 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: fifth most popular website on the Internet, behind Google, YouTube, 24 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: Facebook and buy do It gets thirty two million visits 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: a day Americans look for information on Wikipedia, so big website. 26 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: It is a big website. And as I mentioned a 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: second ago, think about all the students and young people 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: and people out there for whom Wikipedia is informing how 29 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: they think about certain issues. It really can, you know, 30 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: when you think about it, really can be this foundational 31 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: website that we don't even really think critically about necessarily, 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: and we should. We should, And lately people have been 33 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: because and a lot of you listeners have written in 34 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: about this. A gender discrepancy has come to light when 35 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: it comes to Wikipedia, and it is twofold. Firstly, of 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: the one point seven billion English biographies on Wikipedia, only 37 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: seventeen percent are about women, and only twenty percent of 38 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: those seventeen percent contain images. And the problem is even 39 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: worse in some languages like to Jik, which is the 40 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: official language of Tajikistan, or only one percent of the 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: published biographies are on women. And Secondly, and I would 42 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: argue probably related, most of the contributors on Wikipedia are male. 43 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: What's funny is that you can actually look this up 44 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia, which I found very interesting There's an article 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: all about the gender bias on Wikipedia called funnily Enough, 46 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: gender bias on wikiped Yeah Yeah, and it opens with 47 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: gender bias on Wikipedia reflects the fact that a dominant 48 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: majority of volunteer Wikipedia editors, particularly on the English language site, 49 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: are male. This has led to Wikipedia having fewer and 50 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: less extensive articles about women or topics important to women. 51 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: It figures among the most frequent criticisms of Wikipedia, and 52 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: part of a more general criticism about systemic bias in Wikipedia. 53 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: The Wikimedia Foundation, which runs Wikipedia, agrees with these criticisms 54 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: and has made an ongoing attempt to increase female editorship 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: of Wikipedia. So things like editor thons have been held 56 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: to encourage female editors and increase the coverage of women's topics, 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: and they include um numbers that indicate average volunteer content 58 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: editor is a young, college educated male. Only about eight 59 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: point five percent to six percent of content editors on 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: Wikipedia are female, and of editors that made more than 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: five edits, the average male editor has twice as many 62 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: edits as the average female editor. Have you ever edited 63 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: anything on Wikipedia? Yeah? I've actually been part of an 64 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: editor thon that was specifically around getting more inclusion um 65 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia in terms of the editor, so I've done that. 66 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: I also have been known to get into a back 67 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: and forth, like someone will change something and I'm like, no, 68 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: that's wrong, so then I'll change it, and then they'll 69 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: change it, and then I'll change it. Like I have 70 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: been known to get a little obsessive about that kind 71 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: of thing. Um, when someone is wrong on the Internet, 72 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: they must know. Um, how about you do you Have 73 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: you ever done this? I've never done it, and I 74 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: actually had no idea how it worked. I thought it 75 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: was as simple as kind of like click edit and 76 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: write something in. But it's not quite that simple. Is 77 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: that correct? It's not that simple. You have to have 78 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: a page, you have to have an account. It's I mean, 79 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: it's pretty simple, like anyone can do it, but it's 80 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: not just as simple as click edit. You can change 81 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: it and that's it, right, And I think a lot 82 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: of people sort of have the same misunderstanding around it 83 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: that I do. That maybe you have to be more 84 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: qualified or less qualified, Like I had never actually really 85 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: thought about how it worked before. I think that that 86 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: could be a part of this problem. Definitely. I know 87 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk more about some of the 88 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: cultural and social reasons why women don't feel necessarily like 89 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: this is something they should be spending their time on. 90 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: But one that I think is this is purely anecdotal, 91 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: but I think that we have for such a long 92 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: time looked down on internet culture participation when it reads 93 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: as female. And so I'm talking about things like obsessively 94 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: maintaining a Tumbler account or you know, when I was 95 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: growing up, it was like editing your MySpace page just so, 96 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: or you know, all of these little ways that I 97 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: think a lot of women and queer folks got their 98 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: start in participatory online communities. People look down on that, like, oh, 99 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: it's just women microblogging about pair fashion, when in reality, 100 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: what makes that different than something like Wikipedia. I think 101 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: that because when women are kind of like what we 102 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: talked about with the fan fiction episode, when something is 103 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: associated with femaleness or perceived to be something that women 104 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: are doing, even if that thing is a is a 105 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: technical skill or a skill that is you know, like, 106 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: that's not that different than being a Wikipedia editor. But 107 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: yet because we've just kind of compartmentalized it as like 108 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: a dumb women's hobby, I think that we see things 109 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: like being a Wikipedia editor. Even though it's in my 110 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: book very similar, we see those as male and I 111 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: think I think that keeps a lot of us out. Yeah, 112 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: I would completely agree. And if we go back to 113 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: that article from the Wikimedia Foundation, it goes on to 114 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: point out another problem, which is an analysis of the 115 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: articles that do exist about women found that they were 116 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: more likely to use words relating to gender and family. 117 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: Articles about men are likelier to have more positive words, 118 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: and articles about women are likelier to have more negative words. 119 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: From this article quote, researchers believe that this is a 120 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: sign Wikipedia editors consider male the null gender. In other words, 121 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: that mail is assumed unless otherwise specified. Articles about women 122 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: are also less likely to have metadata or hyperlinks. I've 123 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: noticed that so much and it drives me crazy. And 124 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: it's not just for women, it's for people of color 125 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: as well. That if you're not but if you're reading 126 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: an article that is about a white male subject, odds 127 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: are it's going to be full of sources links, so 128 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: many of those blue links versus those red links. But 129 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, let it be someone who's not a white male, 130 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: and it's just not the same experience, right, And there 131 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: is another critique of this gender content gap, and it 132 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: has to do with, as the Guardian describes it, quote 133 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: deciding what matters. And to illustrate this point they give 134 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: the example of the article on female porn stars on Wikipedia, 135 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: which is far better organized than the article on female authors. Also, 136 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: women were removed from the page on American novelist to 137 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: a different page called American women Novelist. Yeah. Just a 138 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: Wiki article on the work to find the structure of 139 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: benzene contained three paragraphs on the male chemist involved and 140 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: one sentence for the chrystallographer who finally figured it out, 141 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: Kathleen Lonsdale. So things like that, and she's the person 142 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: who like cracked the code or whatever. She was a 143 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: pretty foundational person in this whole situation. Yeah, just one sentence, though, 144 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: That's all we need. In The New York Times reported 145 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: on all of this, and Sue Gardner, who was the 146 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: executive director of the Wikimedia Foundation at the time, said 147 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: that diversifying Wikipedia in terms of content and contributors was 148 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: essential for making Wikipedia the best it could be. And 149 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: like you were saying earlier, to think about it, think 150 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: of how many of us use it every day, from 151 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: young children, school kids, working on projects, to podcasters doing 152 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,239 Speaker 1: some research for an episode about gender bias and Wikipedia, 153 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: to everyone who has ever had a random question about 154 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: any insert pop culture thing here that they wanted answered. 155 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: It really is a big deal. It is a big deal. 156 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: And like I said earlier, you don't really stop and 157 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: think about the way that Wikipedia is kind of creating culture. 158 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: It's creating our understanding of how we perceive the world 159 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: around us in ways that are really salient rights. And 160 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 1: that New York Times article went on to suggest some 161 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: reasons why this gap might exist, including quote an obsessive 162 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: fact loving realm, associations with a quote hard driving hacker crowd, 163 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: and the need to be open to very difficult, high 164 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: conflict people, even misogynist. And like I was saying earlier, 165 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: I was surprised reading this because I've never edited a 166 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: Wikipedia page, and the thought that I might have to 167 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: deal with misogynists that never occurred to me, Like if 168 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: I go on to edit something on Wikipedia, this is 169 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: what the meaning of this movie meant, that I might 170 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: run into misogyny. Um, although I thought about it some more, 171 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: and I suppose the possibility to deal with misogynist especially online, 172 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: is omnipresent. Yeah, they're They're always there, trust me, they're 173 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: lurking waiting, however innocuous. The thing is that you think 174 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: they're there. So I learned about jingle all the way 175 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: today and a misogynist comes in, what do you know? 176 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: A lady get out of here? Um, So real quick, 177 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: can you go into what it takes like a basic 178 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: rundown of how to edit on Wikipedia and why I 179 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: might run into misogynist? So basically you've pretty much got 180 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: it right. So if you're not sure how it works, 181 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: Basically you sign up to be an editor, which anyone 182 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: can do. It takes no time. You build up page, 183 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: which again anyone can do. And then an editor who's 184 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: been around kind of Wikipedia for longer check in and 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: checks on your page. Is making sure that the sources 186 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: are good, making sure that nothing needs to be flagged, 187 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: that you're not just a troll who's adding in something 188 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: to be funny, which I have seen a lot of 189 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: which I actually kind of it makes me laugh. I'm 190 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: not gonna lie. Um. And that's basically those changes that 191 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: they are approved by that other editor, they get approved, 192 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: and that's how you edit something. Um. And so possibly 193 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: the people approving could be these misogynists that I might 194 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: run into. Oh definitely, um oh, I could say so much. 195 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: I'll just say this something that you mentioned earlier from 196 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: the New York Times piece, the perception that the kind 197 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: of people who would be involved in Wikipedia editing are 198 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: a certain kind of type, and I guess from being 199 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: involved in sort of like open Internet spaces or like 200 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: spaces where Internet freedom is a thing. I don't think 201 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: that perception that the New York Times article explains is incorrect. 202 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: And the kind of person who obsessively wants to be 203 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: involved in Wikipedia at this level, I don't think people 204 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: are wrong to perceive that person might be, you know, 205 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: but how do the New York Times put it, like 206 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: a like a high conflict hacker type or Yeah. And 207 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: the New York Times did a follow up article I 208 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: think a year later, and it went into further detail 209 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: about why this gap might exist and this having to 210 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: deal with misogynist saying. And they interviewed Susan c Hering, 211 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: who is a professor of information science and linguistics, and 212 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: she said that the talk pages, which is a space 213 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: where conversation around article content happens, can be very intimidating 214 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: for women and for an example, a user pointed out 215 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: that several pages about movies with rape scenes described these 216 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: rape scenes as sex scenes or as making love, and 217 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: when the change to the to use the proper word 218 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: was requested, the revision was rejected with the logic that 219 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: the word rape is not neutral, so sex is more 220 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: appropriate and it makes women feel unwelcome. Unsurprisingly, that example, 221 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: that that rape versus sex example is like the perfect 222 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: example to describe what I'm talking about, where there is 223 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: this I don't even know how to put it into words, 224 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: this attitude that like, oh, they're being so unbiased, like 225 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: we can't use the word rape even if like legally 226 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: these things are rape and there's no there's no gray 227 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: areas like this we're talking about rape. We can't use 228 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: that because it would be unbiased and we must be 229 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: like we are the sort of neutral men who are 230 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: deciding what's what, and we are so you know, unencumbered 231 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: by that womanly you know, emotion, and it's like, no, 232 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about clear rape, like there's not no. So 233 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: that example, really, I think does a great job of 234 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: illustrating what I have felt. This idea that you know, 235 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: if you were to accurately describe something as rape that 236 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: is seen as quote unquote taking a stance or somehow 237 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: political or like the same way in media, sometimes people 238 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: use phrases like racially charged or racially tinged to avoid 239 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: calling something racist in this misguided attempt to be like unbiased. 240 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: And the fact of the matter is, you know, it's 241 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: okay to use words when they accurately describe a thing. Yes, yes, 242 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: And another unsurprising example that this article mentioned is basically 243 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: mentioning anything about feminism is like opening a Pandora's box 244 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: on Wikipedia. That that did not surprise me at all. Yeah, 245 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: that's been par for the course, like on the Internet 246 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: and elsewhere, you know, places like Reddit, which I used 247 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: to really love. That is such a lightning rod, even 248 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: if even if it's meant in a way that is 249 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: completely non confrontational, Like it's just as soon as you 250 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: mentioned the F word, things get heated, right, man, I 251 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: could do a whole Yeah, I've sort of lost Reddit, 252 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: and it's sad. Makes me sad, But it's kind of 253 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: similar to these things that we're talking about in this episode. 254 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: Um Joseph m Regal echoed all of this. He is 255 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: an author and academic who writes about Wikipedia and technology, 256 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: and he describes the culture of hacker elitism and basically 257 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: a minority of loud, conflict prone contributors that can make 258 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: the experience a very toxic one. And it reminds me 259 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that we talked about in our 260 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: video game episode. From this New York Times piece, why 261 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: open doesn't include everyone quote, the ideology and rhetoric of 262 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: freedom and openness can then be used a to suppress 263 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: concerns about inappropriate or offensive speech as censorship, and be 264 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: to rationalize low female participation as simply a matter of 265 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: their personal preference and choice. Okay, that's such a bullet. 266 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: Here's the situation. Anytime that someone obviously I am not 267 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: a proponent of censorship. Obviously that is the case. However, 268 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: when people use this argument about like, oh, free speech 269 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: on the internet censorship, like, let's be straight, nine times 270 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: out of ten, they're using that as an excuse to 271 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: protect really inflammatory behavior online, and they don't understand or 272 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: even care about the way that they're you know, quote 273 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: unquote protection of that kind of behavior, and that kind 274 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: of speech actually does a disservice to free speech. Because 275 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: you were drowning out voices who then find the whole 276 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: thing so toxic that they shut up. So it's just 277 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: this is something that like boils my blood and people 278 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: are like, oh, why can't I be Why can't I 279 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: say the Holocaust didn't happen on Twitter? Whatever happened to 280 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: free speech? And I'm like, get out of here, Get 281 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: out of here, Like what are you? What are you saying? 282 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: What are you doing? I agree so much And I 283 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: can't remember what an episode it was, but I found 284 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: that example someone gave of um, a woman trying to 285 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: standing up on a pedestal and trying to say something 286 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: in like five thousand men throwing ownes at her, and 287 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: like there is an issue of free speech there, but 288 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: it's not the one that people are complaining about, like 289 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: oh my gosh. I mean, we I could talk all day. 290 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: But it's really interesting when people talk about quote unquote 291 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: free speech online, they aren't talking about like we all 292 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: know the speech that they're talking about. And it's very 293 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: interesting how those same proponents of free speech, how they 294 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: don't take up the mantle when a woman is kicked 295 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: off of Twitter for tweeting men are trash, which happens 296 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: all the time, Like look, it up. It's so interesting 297 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: that people who cry the loudest about protecting free speech online, 298 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: it's very interesting the speech that they tend to rally 299 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: around and those who they don't hear a peep about. 300 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: So it's just I find that really interesting. I do too. Um, 301 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: if we go back to this article that we're talking about, 302 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: another person included in it was professor and researcher Justine 303 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: Castle who suggested that this gender gap on Wikipedia has 304 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: to do with something we've talked about all out on 305 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: this show, and that is the credibility gap between men 306 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: and women. The fact that women are judged more harshly 307 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: and that we are more accepting of men being contentious 308 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: within a debate as a society not virgin i uh, 309 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: than we are women. See Also, she's a bit like 310 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: shutting down women who are in a debate as being 311 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: like too aggressive or or not being aggressive enough, because 312 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, we can't really it's it's such a narrow 313 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: zone that we're allowed to exist in in this space, 314 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: that's I mean. See Also, every woman who's ever opened 315 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: her mouth about anything anywhere, about any topic ever since 316 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: the beginning of time, we can really extractolate this out 317 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: quite a bit. We have some more for you, but 318 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: first we're going to pause for a quick break for 319 00:18:51,720 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring. 320 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: So there have been mixed reports as to whether the 321 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: environment on Wikipedia is sexist. Wikimedia's eleven survey found that 322 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: very few women reported being harassed, and the number that 323 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: thought it was a sexualized environment was small. But a 324 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: separate report that year found something kind of different, concluding 325 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: the culture around Wikipedia contribution was quote resistant to female participation. 326 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: And after these studies came out, Wikimedia made a goal 327 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: to get to female contributors by the end of the year, 328 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: and they completely failed completely, and it's sort of a 329 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: joke inside the Wikipedia community among the contributors anyway. Fourteen 330 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: study pinpointed and quote Internet skills gap compounding the problem. 331 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: At lower skilled levels, the gender gap was almost not existed, 332 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: but it was very prominent at higher skill levels, and 333 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: since most of the contributors are higher skilled males, you 334 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: can really you see how that would make things allow worse. 335 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: And yet another study from seventeen found that female participants 336 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: editing a Wikipedia page is part of the experiment largely 337 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: reported believing that other editors were male and thus would 338 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: judge the female participants edits more harshly, and the steady 339 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: recommended quote visible female editors on Wikipedia, and broader encouragement 340 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: of the use of constructive feedback that may began to 341 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: alleviate the Wikipedia gender gap. Furthermore, the relatively high proportion 342 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: of anonymous editors may exacerbate the Wikipedia gender gap, as 343 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: anonymousness may often be perceived as male and more critical. 344 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: And if you're curious as to whether this problem is 345 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: specific to or worse on Wikipedia compared to other encyclopedias, 346 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: Wikipedia is not the only offender. Research compared Wikipedia to 347 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: the Encyclopedia Britannica and found that on average, Wikipedia had better, 348 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: longer coverage and they have more articles about women in general. 349 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: But Wikipedia is more likely to be missing articles on 350 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: women than Encyclopedia Britannicus. So Wikipedia has more coverage overall, 351 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: but Britannica is more equal opportunity when it comes to 352 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: who they don't cover. If that makes sense, it does so. 353 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: Susan Gardner, who we talked about earlier, gave nine reasons 354 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: for this content gender gap on Wikipedia. A lack of 355 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: user friendliness in the editing interface, not having enough free 356 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: time because you know women are busy, a lack of 357 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: self confidence, aversion to conflict, and an unwillingness to participate 358 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: in a link the edit war which you know I 359 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: love belieft that their contributions are too likely to be 360 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: deleted or reverted, and some find this the overall atmosphere 361 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: to be misogynistic and hostile to women. Being addressed as 362 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: male can be off putting to some women whose primary 363 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: language has grammatical gender, and fewer opportunities than other sites 364 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: for social relationships and a welcoming tone overall. So those 365 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: are some of the reasons that Gardner found for this 366 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: gender content gap on Wikipedia, and going off of that, 367 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: others have zeered in on the culture of Wikipedia being 368 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: non inclusive towards women in terms of the ratio of 369 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: male to female centric edited and represented topics, the higher 370 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: rate of reversion when it comes to edits made by women, 371 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: and or the fact that articles with a higher number 372 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 1: of female editors are perceived as more contentious. The National 373 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: Science Foundation gave two thousand dollars to researchers to suss 374 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: out what's going on here, and one worry that some 375 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: of the researchers wrote about after doing this research is 376 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: that articles with female subjects are likelier to be tagged 377 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: for deletion. Yeah, that's pretty upsetting. Um. Wikimedia, the foundation 378 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: that runs Wikipedia, similarly gave two hundred and fifty thousand 379 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: dollars in funding as part of the Inspired campaign. But 380 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: only of the participants in this project that was all 381 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: about getting more women involved in Wikipedia were women. Um. 382 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: Susan Gardner, she was not feeling this, and I really 383 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: agree with her. She voiced her anger around the lack 384 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: of progress on this problem. She says in the very 385 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: limited leisure time that women had, they tended to be 386 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: more involved in social activities instead of editing Wikipedia. She 387 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: said the solution won't come from the Wikimedia Foundation. She 388 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: went on to say women's technology more as a tool 389 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: that they used to accomplish a task, rather than something 390 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: fun in and of itself. Um. You know, I I 391 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: really agree with Gardner here. I love the Wikimedia Foundation 392 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: full disclosure, I once applied to work there and I 393 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: have friends that work there. But I do think this 394 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: is one of those problems where perhaps we should not 395 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: be expecting the solution to come from within. And I 396 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: think I think that what wikimedia is doing is admirable, 397 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: But I think that this is a problem that goes 398 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: deeper than throwing money at it, particularly from an internal source. 399 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: Like I think money is always a good start for 400 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: trying to get to the root of things, But I 401 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: honestly think this is a deeper problem than just something 402 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: Wikipedia can suss out internally on their own. Some people 403 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,239 Speaker 1: we should say, like Heather McDonald, say this isn't a 404 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: problem at all. She attributes this difference to different interests 405 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: held by men and women. I feel like it's still 406 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: important to equally represent um men and women on Wikipedia, 407 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: however that happens. I think that is important, definitely, because 408 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: even if McDonald is right and the problem is just 409 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: that men are more interested in being Wikipedia editors and 410 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: women for no nefarious reason, that still leaves us at 411 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: a point where women's contributions are being are looked over 412 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: or erased altogether. And so even if that is the 413 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: simple solution, it doesn't help us if we still need 414 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: to tackle this problem, because, as we said earlier, Wikipedia 415 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: is creating how we perceive culture. Yeah, and there are 416 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: some things in motion to try to tackle this gap, 417 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: and we'll get into that after one more quick break 418 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: for a word from ours, sir H and we're back, 419 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor. People are trying to make things on 420 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: Wikipedia more equal. There's a couple of things going on. 421 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: Towards the end of a group of folks in the 422 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: Swedish Embassy in Washington, DC participated in the Women's Economic 423 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: Empowerment edita Thon, which was a project hosted by Wikimedia 424 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: d C. And for three hours, the fifteen volunteers created 425 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: and edited articles about notable Swedish women. And you said 426 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: you were you'd participated in an edita thon, right, bridget 427 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: I did. It was really fun, you know. I sort 428 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: of just did it because I got an email from 429 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: a friend who was organizing it, and I thought, oh, 430 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: this is At the time, I didn't really know a 431 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: ton about Wikipedia. I didn't know any of the things 432 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: that we that were unfolding here. It just seemed like 433 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: a cool thing to do with women. And I love 434 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: online communities. I love the like. I loved it. I 435 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: was a read It moderator for a while before it 436 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: got horrible to deal with. But I was just interested in, like, oh, 437 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: women want to be doing an Internet thing together, Like 438 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: what's that about? And I have to report that it was. 439 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: It just really just goes back to the research that 440 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: having it be this organized thing where community building among 441 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: women was explicitly part of the deal that made it 442 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: that much more enjoyable for me. So ever, really goes 443 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: back to the research that Gardner found that you know, 444 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: if women don't necessarily feel that warm, fuzzy community aspect 445 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: of being involved in Wikipedia, and that you know, for me, 446 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: the editorson really but that was a big part of it, 447 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: and so that was one of the reasons why I 448 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: wanted to go. Yeah, I think that would be a 449 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,479 Speaker 1: pretty fun experience and I would love to participate in one. 450 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: Now that I've read about it, I'm really interested in 451 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: trying it out. Another piece of this of the solution 452 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: of minimizing the gap um as a project called visual Editor. 453 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: And this is a whizz a wig or what you 454 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: see is what you get style of editing, or the 455 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: screen you see when you're editing closely resembles what you 456 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: will get when you publish your edits. And this is 457 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: aimed in part to close the gender content gap by 458 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: making the editing process more user friendly and less intimidating. 459 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: And I've never edited on Wikipedia, but I do remember 460 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: in college I had to take classes about different internet 461 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: languages and building websites, and it was very intimidating to 462 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: just be looking like a bunch of code and hope 463 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: that when you press publish, it'll do what you wanted 464 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: to do. As opposed to one of them was much 465 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: more visual and much closer to what the final product 466 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: would look like, so you felt more confident when you 467 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: pushed published. Oh my gosh, this is I could talk 468 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: about this all day, like I don't want to get 469 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: us off on a tangent as I want to do, 470 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: but you know I used to, so I'm I'm a 471 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: very basic coder, like I would never call myself a 472 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: skilled coder. I can do it in a very basic way. 473 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: And how I learned how to do it was lying 474 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: about knowing how to do it on a resume and 475 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,239 Speaker 1: just like then, just like figuring it out, and I 476 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: remember thinking, oh, this is what this is like, it's 477 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 1: gonna be so difficult. I just assumed that I would 478 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: not be able to do it, that this it was 479 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: this high minded quote unquote male hard skill. And when 480 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: I actually sat down to do it, I realized there's 481 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: probably a lot of women out there who have bought 482 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: into this idea of these kinds of technical skills being 483 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: something they'll never be able to learn. It's like so unscrutable, 484 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: I'll never learn it. It's gonna be this horrible process. 485 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: And really it was like very easy. And then I 486 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: learned that for most couders, they're like looking things up 487 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: on Google as I go go along, and I realized 488 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: that I had really bought into this idea as coding 489 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: things online as scary and difficult and hard in a 490 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: way that was almost like an internalized misogyny that like 491 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: I just assumed that my tiny girl brain couldn't figure 492 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: it out. And I really realized, like, wow, we really 493 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: shroud a lot of tech things in this gauze of 494 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: you know, they're so difficult and inscrutable and only a 495 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: high minded, savvy mail can figure it out. And really 496 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: that's not true. No, not at all. Did you find 497 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: when you were editing a page on Wikipedia? Did you 498 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: find that it was a intimidating interface or pretty easy 499 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: to use? I the whizzy Wig is definitely easier for me. 500 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm no expert, but I would say I 501 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: could understand why someone who didn't have a technical background 502 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: might think they would need one, but you absolutely do not. No, no, 503 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: no no. I I'm also a very basic coder, and 504 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: I have to say I really enjoyed it. There's some 505 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: kind of problem solving aspect to to some of it 506 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: that I can see how some people would hate, but 507 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: I very much enjoyed when you knew there was a 508 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: problem in the code and you have to find out 509 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: where it was. Um, but there is a whole thing 510 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: dedicated making things less scary for first time editors on Wikipedia, 511 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: and it's called Wikipedia Tea House. Their tagline is a 512 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: friendly place to learn about editing on Wikipedia, and you 513 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: can ask questions and people will answer them. So if 514 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: you if this is something that anyone out there has 515 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: been avoided of but is interested in, that that might 516 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: be a really good place to start. Yeah. I agree. Um, 517 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: this is probably going to surprise nobody. But in proposal 518 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: for women only spaces for editors was strongly opposed by 519 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: Wikipedia editors. Probably again like who are whoever saw that coming? 520 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: Women having their own inclusive women only space to do 521 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: this being opposed by a bunch of male editors, I 522 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: don't believe it. So the person who made this request 523 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: was harass online afterwards, and her user name was linked 524 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: to pornographic images by a fellow wiki editor, and another 525 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: editor told her quote the easiest way to avoid being 526 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: called a is not to act like one. She was 527 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: asked to join Wikipedia's Gender gap task Force, but the 528 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: trolls followed her there demanding proof that there was a 529 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: gender gap at all, and she quit a few days later. However, 530 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: she once again proposed a space for female um editors, 531 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: and people posted in the opposed section on the request 532 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: that they would fight to the death this proposal. After 533 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: finding these pornographic pictures linked to her user name, the 534 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: editor went to Wikipedia's arbitration committee, but not only did 535 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: they decline her request, they banned her from editing for 536 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: at least a year due to a complaint opened against 537 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: her from another editor, claiming that since she was involved 538 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: in multiple complaints, she must be the issue. Wow, that 539 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: really says it all I think. And first of all, 540 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: I have to I have to say this. The person 541 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: who said they would fight to the death, I mean, 542 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: come on, at a certain point, these I mean, these 543 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: are the kind of people that you're dealing with, People 544 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: who take this so seriously that they are pledging to 545 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: fight to the death over Wikipedia editing like come on 546 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: right and and of note, one of Wikipedia's five pillars 547 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: of their civility policy is that editors treat each other 548 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: with respect and civility doesn't sound like this is happening. Yeah, 549 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: Harassing someone until they quit sounds pretty civil. Yeah. Um. 550 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: And then something you kind of touched on earlier. This 551 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: is Another solution that has been bandied around is the 552 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: wiki project Women in Red w i R. It's a 553 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: project focus on turning red links into blue links within 554 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: the scope of women's biographies and women's works. It started 555 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: and since then the percentage of biographies on women went 556 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: from to seventeen point seven five percent that it is 557 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: now and you can find this wiki project on Wikipedia, 558 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: of course, and it gives you instructions on how to 559 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: join the effort to minimize the content gender gap. If 560 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: you're interested in it is pretty cool. They have an 561 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,479 Speaker 1: events section and a happening now and as we record 562 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: this wiki editors are working on photography laureates and countries 563 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: that begin with I. That sounds kind of like a 564 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: fun thing to get involved in. Yeah, And in case 565 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: you didn't know, wiki projects are groups of people working 566 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: together to improve Wikipedia, usually with a specific focus. Because 567 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't I hadn't really run into those before. I 568 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: don't think, yeah, I don't really know that much about 569 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: them either, so that this is useful for me. An 570 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: undergraduate student at Chicago's Loyola University, Emily temple Would started 571 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: contributing to female scientists biographies now. She reported getting emails 572 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: from trolls as a result, but that didn't stop her. 573 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: She founded the wiki project Women Scientists, which she described 574 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: as a wiki project dedicated to ensuring quality coverage of 575 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: biographies of women scientists. Unfortunately, part of wikipedia systematic bias 576 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: is that women in science are woefully underrepresented. Let's change that. 577 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: In she and the found of Women Red Rosie Stevenson 578 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: Goodnight one Wikipedia of the Year, So shout out to 579 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: those badass ladies. Yeah, and another another badass lady here 580 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: is a physicist at Imperial College London, Jess Wade, and 581 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: she's spearheading the effort to get more stem women on 582 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: Wikipedia too. And she's a frequent Wikiasan editor and estimates 583 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: the average time it takes to create a biography is 584 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. Just useful information in case 585 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: anyone's wondering and these pages that she's creating or is 586 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: involved with creating, um are getting a lot of views. 587 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: By the way, and one of the things that you 588 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: pointed out in the research, but I could not agree 589 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: with more. Having a Wikipedia page can really give you 590 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: more credibility, especially if you're a scientist, and it gives 591 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: children role models to look up or an opportunity to 592 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: see themselves in a position they might not otherwise think 593 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: of themselves in. And so think about when you google 594 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: someone and you're like, oh, they have a Wikipedia page. 595 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: It does add a level of credibility to their work. Yeah, 596 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: it does for sure. And and and just one thing to 597 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: put out there, because an argument that a lot of 598 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: people make is that maybe there aren't that many female 599 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: scientists out there. Um, the numbers do not back that 600 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: argument up. Based on Wikipedia's numbers, you'd estimate somewhere between 601 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: seven of prominent chemists are female, dead or alive. About 602 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: of employed chemists in the US were female. Estimates suggests 603 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: that about one third biographies on chemists should be female. 604 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: And another part of it is the notable thing perhaps 605 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: a woman didn't get the title because of barriers in 606 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: her way, but she might have been behind the scenes 607 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: or still on the front lines, but not credited for 608 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: her work. Things like that. How many amazing women have 609 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: we never heard of? Mm hmm, that's so true. And 610 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: I just shout out to people who are helping us 611 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: reimagine and rethink, you know, the way that we credit 612 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: these women, the way that we include them. Because if 613 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: we don't build monument to the work of people who 614 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: are traditionally excluded or marginalized, women, queer folks, folks of color. 615 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: You know, if we don't, if we don't build those 616 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: monuments to their work, we won't, you know, how will 617 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: we remember them? Yeah? Um, it would be really amazing 618 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: if we could, If we could all harness the power 619 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: of the Sminty community, and it is powerful to contribute 620 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: to this. Um, let's all become contributors. I know. I'm 621 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: like so into this idea. I love doing research and 622 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: sort of going down rabbit holes, and I think that 623 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 1: this could be a really fun project to participate in. Yeah, 624 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: and also I would love to hear folks his favorite 625 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: Wikipedia article rabbit holes, because I definitely was up on 626 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: like three am up that night reading a Wikipedia page 627 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: about the list of animals that have fraudulent diplomas and 628 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: degrees you can surprise. Oh, now I want to look 629 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: at that. I was trying to figure out the plot 630 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: of all of the Friday thirteen movies recently. So Wikipedia, 631 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: I mean from podcast research to random things that you 632 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: do when you're when you should be sleeping. We we 633 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: really were, So we should really be thankful for Wikipedia's 634 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: presence in our life. We really should be, and I think, um, 635 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: we can we can contribute to make it better. I'm 636 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: definitely going to look up an edit upon and for listeners. 637 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you if you're involved 638 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 1: in this at all, or um what are your favorite 639 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: Wikipedia rabbit holes to go down? Indeed, you can find 640 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 1: us online at stuff fum Never told You on Instagram 641 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 1: and at Moms of Podcasts on Twitter and where can 642 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,439 Speaker 1: people find you, Bridget as you willfully sadly wind down 643 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: your time here at sminthy Well, you can always find 644 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: what I'm doing on Twitter. On Twitter, I'm at Bridget 645 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: Marie and I would love it if you followed me 646 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: on Instagram. I'm Bridget Marie in d C. And you 647 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: can always email Ella's at mom Stuff at how stuff 648 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: works dot com. You can find me on social media 649 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: as well. That's the one benefit of having a name 650 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: that is spelled differently than most people spell it easy 651 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: to find. Thanks it's always to our producer Andrew Howard, 652 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening.