WEBVTT - A Dispatch from Ukraine 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.360 Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:13.000 falling apart and even occasionally about trying to put them 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.759 back together. Uh. Today, as is too often the case, 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:18.919 we're going to be focused more on the falling apart 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:25.680 thing because today we are talking about the situation in Ukraine. UM. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.720 It is as I I type or not type because 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:30.800 I'm not writing, but you know, you get how I'm 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.960 used to thinking. As I say this. Russian troops have 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.800 just moved in to two regions in eastern Ukraine that 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.880 have been occupied by what are generally called Russian backed 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:46.559 separatists since two thousand and fourteen. Vladimir Putin gave a 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:48.440 speech that I will be we'll be talking about a 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.720 bit with our guest um and announced his intention to 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:58.200 recognize those breakaway sections of the country as independent republics. UH. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.880 And the area that he has chosen to recognized includes 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.960 about s territory that is currently occupied and held by 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.280 the Ukrainian government. So it's a big mess. Uh. This 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.479 is some have said like a soft version of the 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.520 invasion that people were expecting. I think it's probably more 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:19.319 accurate to say it's a slow start, um. Compared to 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.000 what is potentially possible and very likely coming in the 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.520 future to talk more about this and about being an 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.039 anarchist kind of trapped in between you know, NATO and 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:33.720 Russia and everything that's flinging around right now. Is Ukrainian 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:39.520 journalist Romeo Kokratski, Romeo, welcome to the show. Thanks a lot, 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.039 Thanks for having me, been a big fan of yours. 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.800 So it's an honor to be here. And you are 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.760 in your in Kiev right now, right? Yeah? Correct? And 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.520 and how is everybody keeps asking this all around? But 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.760 how is the mood? Um? As you know, to the 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:56.800 extent that there's a way of saying that, like I've 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.559 i've you know, have things kind of take gonna turn 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:05.920 since Putin actually made his first big play. I mean, 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.200 as much as journalists like to say, there is no 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:16.200 magic mutometer to check to instantly bull every resident in 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.600 the city to find out walk around and talk to everybody, 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.120 just like all the four million or whatever citizens of 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.480 the city. Let me just let me just ask him. Um. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.320 But like there definitely has been a turning point. Um. 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.160 Like one of the big refrains that I've seen, like 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.359 personally and everyone has been saying, right, is that Ukrainians 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.000 are so calm. Look at these pictures of them, like 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.760 shopping in malls and like going to school? What else 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.400 are you supposed to do? What else are we supposed 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.840 to do? But I mean that this true. People have 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:52.880 been calmed. But since yesterday evening there definitely has been 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.399 a shift. Um. And even casual conversation uh in key 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:02.560 of like I was sitting to paraphrase a famous columnists 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:07.720 usual framing, I was sitting in a cafe and overhearing 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:12.320 the wait staff chat amongst themselves. Um, and obviously the 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.280 the the whole conversation is oh is Putin going to 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:20.440 push into Kiev? And anecdotally we're semi anecdotally, I guess um, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.679 apartment prices in the western cities like in Leviv and 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:28.040 nus Worod have really spiked up, like incredibly, um, so 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.079 that people are I wouldn't call that. That's a depressing 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.240 way to pay attention to, that a reason to pay 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:37.680 attention to that, Like, I wouldn't call it a mass panic. Um. 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.800 They're no like bank runs, No, like all the stores 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.680 are stocked. No, one's like hoarding. Um. But at the 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.040 same time, there is a study trickle of people going 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.640 west and kind of making plans at this point. Yeah, 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.400 and UM, so this to kind of give people a 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:58.560 little bit more context before we get into some of 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:06.040 the more citical dimensions of this. UM. Right now, there 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:11.160 has not been a massive escalation um of violence outside 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.800 of the areas where there have been fighting for several years. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:15.520 You know, there has been an escalation on the front 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:20.000 line that's existed since UM, but there has not been like, 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.120 you know, troops pouring across the border in other areas 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:27.640 and stuff. And that's obviously probably the number one worry. UM. 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.640 It looks like what's about to happen is or at 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.880 least it's hard to say, because Putin has recognized the 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:40.520 borders of this breakaway part of Ukraine as significantly larger 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.200 than the area they actually control, and he has moved troops, 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.680 Russian active duty troops into that area. Now, Russian troops, 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.520 I'm from what I've heard about three thousand have been 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.960 in the breakaway areas for years now, UM, but a 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:57.599 significant yeah, a significant number have been added now. And 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.800 obviously the fear is that because he has recognize the 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.960 territory of these these quote unquote in his terms, breakaway 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.560 republics is being much larger than what they control, that 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:10.680 Russian troops are going to participate with the separatists, um 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:15.919 in attacking and taking those territories from the Ukrainian government. Um, 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.520 that's one concern, obviously. The the concern attached to that 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.400 is that it would be not at all inconceivable for 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.159 a conflict that started that way to spread to a 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:30.680 much wider part of Ukraine. Um. This is all coming 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.480 alongside a speech Putin gave that, unfortunately, is going to 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:39.239 be one of those things people here about in history books. Um. Yeah, 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.840 out of its god damn mind. And it's one of 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.039 those things. We will talk some more about how the 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.160 Western left sometimes I don't want to be like because 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.800 this is also largely the the online left, but how 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.000 the online left talks about Putin sometimes. This was not 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.760 a I want to return to the Soviet Union at speech. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.479 This was I want to return to Czarist Russia's borders 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:05.480 type speech. Like the guy has the Czarist imperial crest 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.599 emblazoned on the gates to his palace. So I'm really 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.440 not sure what people would have expected. And unfortunately he's 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.040 better at his job than any of the last Tsars 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.479 were because he's he's achieved a notable amount of success 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:23.039 towards that goal already. Um, and yeah, he he a 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.760 number of things that were It's one of those, Like 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.559 one of the things he said, which is a line 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.120 that folks like him in Russia have been saying for 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:36.720 a while, is that Ukraine, the existence of Ukraine as 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.560 an independent polity is a mistake. And as an anarchist, 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:42.800 you know, there's this like, well, yeah, I don't I 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.160 don't like the Ukrainian state. I don't like any state 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.080 in particular. But if you're if your only disagreement is 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.360 with the statehood of Ukraine and you're fine with the 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.640 statehood of Russia, you know, then then perhaps what you 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.120 actually think is that people in Ukraine should not have 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:01.599 any autonomy to disagree with the government and moss scal um, 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.880 and I think that's the case here. Um. There's a 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.720 there's similarities between how Putin and those like him in 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:13.040 Russia treat Ukrainians, um with how, for example, the Turks 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.680 treat Kurds in the southern part of the country. There's 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:17.840 this this thing you'll hear a lot from Turkey, where 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.560 like there's no Kurds in Turkey. They're they're mountain Turks 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.360 who have lost their their language. And there's this denial 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.679 from Putin and the Russians that Ukrainians are a people, 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.880 that they exist, and there this this is something that 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.640 has translated. Most people have heard versions of this, and 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:36.760 just any of the coverage you've heard of Ukraine, if 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.800 you've ever heard of it referred to as the Ukraine, 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:43.120 what that is is part of a very old um 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.960 line that kind of exists to allow Russians to deny 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.320 the existence of Ukrainians as a people and make it 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:50.960 make it seem more like it's just kind of a 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.920 geographic region, which is not the case. And why you 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.640 wouldn't refer to you wouldn't call it the Ukraine anymore 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.480 than you would call it the Canada. Um. It just 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.160 isn't the way you you say, should say that. But 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.600 um yeah, So I think that's at least enough of 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:09.680 a background to get into the real media what we 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:11.680 want to talk about. So and I'm just gonna kind 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.520 of open this up to you to chat about what 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.400 you'd like to say and what you think needs to 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:22.080 be gotten across to the international left, because internationalism is 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.400 something we value a lot here and it has been 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:31.720 hard to find in this conflict. Yeah, Like growing up 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.920 in New York in the nineties, one of the core 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:41.520 values I kind of absorbed, I guess through cosmosis is 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.000 the value that every single person I met, regardless of 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.760 whatever corner of the world they came from, is the 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:52.640 exact scene beings me UM. And it wasn't. And and 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.040 that kind of realization was one of the things that 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.080 I guess, I wouldn't say pushed, but UM conspired to 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:06.960 to turn me into a leftist, a socialist, Marxist UM. 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.000 And part of that, especially when I was learning about 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:14.800 what the hell all these isms were UM, was internationalism, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.680 the idea that well, our struggle isn't within the the 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:23.040 fabricated borders of whatever UM polity has has decided to 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:28.920 impose their their authority UM. But internationally, every single workers 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.280 the same as every other worker. We're all struggling with 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:36.520 the same issues, We're all fighting the same forces UM, 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:41.320 and generally speaking, we have the same enemies. A. Now 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:46.040 fast forward to h I go online and what do 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:51.400 I see? Well, ukraineans are all Nazis or Ukraine shouldn't exist, 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.960 or how can we support either of those. It's two 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.760 fascist states fighting each other. And I'm sorry, Ukraine has 0:09:57.760 --> 0:09:59.840 got a population of forty four million. You want to 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.880 tell mean that every single one of those forty four 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:08.000 million or Nazis. Like, people didn't even say that about Germany. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.640 They were literally the Nazi state. I mean the United States, 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.760 um for that man, Like, we had four years of Trump, 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:23.040 an openly fascist, authoritarian leader, and no one seems to say, well, 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.360 I guess the US should be bombed. Well, I guess 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.080 there are some. I mean, there's definitely there's definitely people 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.960 who say that, but yeah, but generally speaking, that's not 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:37.760 exactly the view that people take, right. Um, So it's 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:42.800 it's been a long process of disappointment. Well, I say, long, Um, 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.640 there's always been the kind of well what are these 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:51.480 people really think about Ukraine? But breaft of such a 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.920 strong impetus to take a side, I guess, um that 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.400 hasn't been in the forefront. And now every day I 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.040 see people that I would have considered comrades, that I 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:06.839 would have considered um friends and brothers, just kind of 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.760 turned their back on me because I live here, right, 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:14.480 Any any aggression, any action that's taken will literally affect 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:19.280 me physically sitting here and you UM. So it's been 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:24.120 it's been really really immensely disheartening to see that every 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.200 single value UM that I thought the Left was supposed 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:28.880 to value, that that I thought the left was built 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:35.480 on um bet by people with throws emojis or hammer 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.800 and sickles in their user names or whatever the hell 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.520 it is. And we should probably talk about some of 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.240 why this is and what the what the history is here. 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.480 So the most kind of direct thing that people can 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.760 point to when they when they call Ukraine a fascist 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.480 state or when they talk about this is the existence 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:54.600 of the ass Off Battalion, the as Off Battalion as 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:59.160 a paramilitary organization. That means it's it's not officially a 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.280 part of the gun a mental military structure, but it 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.520 it does receive, has received arms from the government and 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.960 it UH functions as part of Ukraine's defense forces UM 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.080 for the for the purposes of of fighting off the 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.720 Russian back separatists UM and the as Off, Italian and Nazis. 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.360 There's there's you know, the you can there's been a 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.960 tremendous amount of reporting on that on that matter, it's 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.480 a big problem in the Ukrainian government deserves a significant 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.559 amount of criticism for the degree to which as off 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.240 has been allowed to continue existing. UM. But there's also 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.960 a lot that gets left out when people focus on that, 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.360 including the fact that, for example, the political wing of 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.680 as off right sector, which is kind of the that 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.240 it would be fair to call it the umbrella term 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.640 for like the far right parties in the Ukraini Ukrainian 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:52.839 government have been pretty effectively siloed away from political power 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.000 through very active measures to about like what is one 0:12:56.040 --> 0:13:00.920 percent of um like representation, and so it didn't actually 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.320 pass the threshold tantor the new parliament. Yeah, they're they're 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:09.840 nonentity politically, they're just non popular there. UM campaigns failed, 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.440 their models failed, their agitation fails. Ukrainians do not want 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.160 to vote for Nazis. Yeah, and it's it is. It 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.640 is a an ugly situation. And I remember talking with 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.200 when I was reporting on the might On uprisings, which 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.760 is when, again for people who aren't up on recent 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.760 Ukrainian history, they had a president who tried to do 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.000 a dictatorship UM, and people rose up and fought him 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.840 in the streets. UM. It was a very gnarly time, 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.560 about two hundred people were shot by government forces. Um. 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.920 And eventually the president was forced to flee the country, 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.560 which is what precipitated everything that's happening now, because that 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.000 president was pretty closely tied with Putin and the people 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.679 fighting him. UM. We're not all they were not pro 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.840 NATO rebels, but they were more definitely more supportive of 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.320 closer ties with Western Europe than they were with Russia. UM. 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.679 And that again, those are kind of the precipitating events 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.959 for everything that happened that's happening now. Um. And some 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.760 of the people who were fighting the president's forces were fascists. Um. 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:13.480 And it's one of those things. I remember talking with 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.920 protesters at the time who were like, well, am I 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.280 supposed to get in fight with them at the same 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.680 time as I'm trying not to get shot by riot police, 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:22.920 Like what what do you expect me to do? And 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.880 it is a nasty situation, and it's one of those things. UM. 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.800 I don't know, like I don't know what to tell 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:36.320 people about that because it's it's it's ugly, and it's 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:42.680 uncomfortable and it's messy. And that's also Ukrainian history. There's 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:44.960 a lot of ugly, uncomfortable, messy things here is there's 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.120 with every country's history. It doesn't mean people in Kiev 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.200 deserve to have their housing blocks pounded by Russian artillery. 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.440 Doesn't mean that people in Nevdivka deserve to have their 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.440 homes pounded by artillery. Um. And whatever criticisms you want 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.160 to make about how the Russian or had the Ukrainian 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.640 government has handled as Off, and there are many criticisms 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.880 to make, that's not really relevant to the people living 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.880 in these areas having their homes destroyed on a daily 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:22.240 basis by mortar fire. I just want to make like 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.800 a couple of things really clear. The as Off Battallion 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:32.200 is like a thousand guys like Max. And the reason, 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.520 one of the reasons at least that they rose to 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.840 such prominence in the beginning wasn't only there um ability 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.440 to to mobilize in the early stages of the Russian 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.920 war against Ukraine. It was also because they had very 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:49.080 strong financial backing um from the former Interior minister m 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:53.120 Arsenivakov and Ivankov is no longer in power, uh. And 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:57.360 one of the things you can see immediately was the 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.360 like almost Noah eying of fascist street marshes and fascist 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:07.640 demonstrations UM in Kiav outside the president's office. That all 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:13.160 vanished because more like in Ukraine, ideology is not very strong. 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.280 And this is something UM that I've noticed a lot 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.320 of people, uh from the US in your have trouble 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:24.560 understanding about Ukrainian politics. People here are not really ideological. 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.720 Our parties don't map UM. Aside from a couple of 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.240 outliers like rights actor UM, it doesn't really map to 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:35.880 any left right access UM. People typically will always want 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.160 the same policies, like they always want a pension, they 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.080 always want UM universal health care to be better, they 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.440 always want the roads fixed. UM generally policy something most 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.640 Ukrainians actually agree on UM. As a result, most of 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.920 our elections are purely personality based. That's one of the 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:57.960 reasons Zelenski Voladaimur's Lenski, our current president, one was because 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.800 he was a well known comedian. Yeah, and people liked 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.800 his personality, and he put out a whole TV show 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:09.080 as a PR stunt before launching his campaign, and people 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.440 voted for that personality these on screen h and so 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:18.120 when there was far right activity, and again I wonder 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:22.960 stress that that activity, even the street activity, has almost disappear. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.760 It's because the far right is typically used in Ukraine 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.119 as a political tool by one oligarc were one interest 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:35.600 group against another. That's why when the money disappeared, they disappeared. 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:40.159 Because the leaderships, the leadership of these batist groups typically speaking, 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:46.239 we're not um that ideological themselves. But they did like 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.440 having usuvs, and they did like buying guns and um, 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:54.119 hiring hookers and doing drugs. Like they liked the money 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.560 and that's why they did it. And they would convince 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.159 a bunch of teenagers to go out and wave a 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.160 couple of torture is in march or chance. But these 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:07.840 guys were really purely for the money. Um. And again 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.120 you can tell that because when their financial backward disappeared, 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.239 then in order to be found. Yeah, and it's one 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.200 of those one of the things that is very frustrating 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.720 to me. I can't remember one of the earliest projects 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.520 that I did that was like a four belling cat. 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.160 As we were there was a Pride march in Kiev 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:26.320 that got attacked by Nazis. This was a couple of 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.080 years back, and we were kind of trying to identify 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.040 the individual fascists who are like beating people in the street, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.840 and it's spending hours pouring over that footage. It makes 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.119 it incredibly frustrating that there are people outside of the 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.400 country boiling it down to while all of those people 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.760 are fascists, all of those people are part of a 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.560 fascist state. It's like, no, a lot of those people, 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.600 quite a few Ukrainians have fought Nazis in the streets, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.399 you know. Um, that's a reality of the situation. And 0:18:54.440 --> 0:19:00.280 it's it's um and it it's it's ugly in heart 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.680 because if you actually want to look at what's been happening, 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.760 uh with the Russian back separatists, there's a lot of 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:14.600 fascists over there. Um, there's a lot of paramilitary organizations 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.800 and like far right groups that have been used by 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:21.840 the Russian government. Yeah yeah, literally literally named because they're 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:27.560 fascist leader yeah Liken like many Nazis. It's it's it's 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:32.640 hard to to understand, honestly from my perspective, um, because 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.919 not only is Russian fascism have far more influence on 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:42.320 Russian policy than any Ukrainian fascists has ever had Ukrainian policy. Um, 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.000 it's also that the Russian project and the narrative they use. Um, 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.880 there there's this joke they call are not really joke, 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.480 a slurred they call they call Ukrainians Nazis. Been derrists 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:59.639 um for those who don't open Darrow was a Ukrainian 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.800 national leader of partisan fought against the Soviets UH and 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:10.760 he his organization was implicated in quite a few war crimes, 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:15.760 significant number of war crimes, war crimes. UH. So clearly 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.960 been near himself, probably not a great guy, yeah, but 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:25.640 to delegitimize all Ukrainian kind of independence movements that I've 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.960 propped up over the years, the Soviet government and now 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.560 the Russian government has always always insisted that there is 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:36.080 no legitimate way for Ukraine to be independent where all 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:38.639 Natzi been Darists no matter what. And that's why you 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.680 had Um. There's a picture a couple of days ago 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:46.960 of a solidarity marshan Kiev um with UH some of 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:53.120 Kiev's LGBT community holding up Bandaris flags. Not because they're 0:20:53.240 --> 0:21:00.240 gay Nazis, because it's a way of yeah, retaking this 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.000 slur back from the Russians. And it's all part of 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:08.879 the complicating factor here is that because of how geo 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.680 politics worked out, in that period of time, there are 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:17.800 very uncomfortable but kind of inextricable ties between uh Ukrainian 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.760 the basic idea of Ukraine being a nation independent from 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:26.160 Russia and anti communism, And because of what was going 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.760 on in anti communism in that period of time we're 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.720 talking the thirties and forties, it means that a decent 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:37.760 number of those early Ukrainian nationalists were either directly implicated 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.679 with the Nazis like Bandera, or at least had uncomfortable ties. 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.159 And that's a messy part of history that shouldn't be 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.040 shied away from. But for example, the same thing is 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:49.400 true of Finland. Like you can say the exact same 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:54.520 thing about sucking Finnish nationalism, Finnish sovereignty and whatnot, um, 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.320 And people don't call Finland a Nazi nation um even 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:00.840 though Yeah, the fact that they were stuck between the 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:03.600 U s SR and Nazi Germany means that there were 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.480 a lot of Fins in that period of time who 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.080 made some real fucked up choices um like. But also 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.639 there's a lot that has to be like, you can't 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.800 adequately discuss why those choices were made if you don't 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:18.199 talk about, for example, the holodomor you know, which was 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.800 the starvation genocide of several million Ukrainians by the Soviet government. 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:27.320 Like and honestly, to go back even further, um and 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.760 to I don't know, burnished my left its promountion a 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:34.720 little bit if you go back to the civil war itself, 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:39.159 where UM a lot of this started. Most of the 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:41.880 nationalist groups, I would say nearly all of them. There 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.960 were one or two monarchists minor monarchist groups in Ukraine. 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:49.679 The grand majority of them were in fact socialism or socialist. 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:53.320 They had like the hammer and sickle and wheats on 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.199 their currency and everything, because at the time that was 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:02.520 what one votes uh from the basm tree. But when 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:07.840 the Bolsheviks crushed every independent Ukrainian social movement in exchange 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:12.399 for bureaucrats that they imported from the Empire and just 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:18.199 shoved into Ukrainian cities, well then you had Ukrainians that 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:21.399 wanted to be independent and wanted to have a better 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.040 life than under the Tsar. Well now suddenly they don't 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:29.680 even have that support, um from the Bolsheviks. Uh. And 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:33.760 obviously as a Ukrainian, UM, I can't talk about this 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.680 without bringing up Nestro Macnu who was a anarchist leader, 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:40.320 the leader of the Ukrainian Black Army UM during the 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.840 Civil war, and what happened to them, Well, the Bolsheviks 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:47.000 betrayed them and killed all of them and curus the 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.680 movement UH and then smeared them all as um how 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:53.560 to file rapist cannibals if I remember correctly. Yeah, yeah, 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:57.200 there's a lot of of of disinformation you can find 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.480 about that time, just like today, you know, only the 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:05.240 names have changed exactly. So if there is no other 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:10.920 outlet for Ukrainian nationalism and the group that you thought 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:15.439 maybe an ally in UH destroying the empire in granting 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:18.679 you self determination turns out to be a continuation of 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:23.920 that exact empire, well it's pretty logical. Maybe not right, 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:26.320 but it is pretty logical for people go to the 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:28.800 for people to go to the other extream. And it's 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:30.720 one of those One of the things I think that 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.760 should be noted more, as we talked about earlier, is 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:38.159 that one of these stories of Ukrainian politics, particularly in 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.639 the last got close to a decade since the Maidan, 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:47.840 is that mainstream Ukrainian political leaders and Ukrainian voters have 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:52.040 overwhelmingly rejected that sort of nationalism this time around, UM 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.800 and have gone out of their way to silo it 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:57.960 out of active political power. UM in a way that 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.160 one could argue is more successful than has been done 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:06.320 in the United States. UM. And absolutely we didn't get Trump. Yeah, no, 0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:11.240