1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about things 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: falling apart and even occasionally about trying to put them 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: back together. Uh. Today, as is too often the case, 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: we're going to be focused more on the falling apart 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: thing because today we are talking about the situation in Ukraine. UM. 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: It is as I I type or not type because 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: I'm not writing, but you know, you get how I'm 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: used to thinking. As I say this. Russian troops have 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: just moved in to two regions in eastern Ukraine that 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: have been occupied by what are generally called Russian backed 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: separatists since two thousand and fourteen. Vladimir Putin gave a 12 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: speech that I will be we'll be talking about a 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: bit with our guest um and announced his intention to 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: recognize those breakaway sections of the country as independent republics. UH. 15 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: And the area that he has chosen to recognized includes 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: about s territory that is currently occupied and held by 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian government. So it's a big mess. Uh. This 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: is some have said like a soft version of the 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: invasion that people were expecting. I think it's probably more 20 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: accurate to say it's a slow start, um. Compared to 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: what is potentially possible and very likely coming in the 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: future to talk more about this and about being an 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: anarchist kind of trapped in between you know, NATO and 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: Russia and everything that's flinging around right now. Is Ukrainian 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: journalist Romeo Kokratski, Romeo, welcome to the show. Thanks a lot, 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, been a big fan of yours. 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: So it's an honor to be here. And you are 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: in your in Kiev right now, right? Yeah? Correct? And 29 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: and how is everybody keeps asking this all around? But 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: how is the mood? Um? As you know, to the 31 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: extent that there's a way of saying that, like I've 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 1: i've you know, have things kind of take gonna turn 33 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: since Putin actually made his first big play. I mean, 34 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: as much as journalists like to say, there is no 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: magic mutometer to check to instantly bull every resident in 36 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: the city to find out walk around and talk to everybody, 37 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: just like all the four million or whatever citizens of 38 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: the city. Let me just let me just ask him. Um. 39 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: But like there definitely has been a turning point. Um. 40 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: Like one of the big refrains that I've seen, like 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: personally and everyone has been saying, right, is that Ukrainians 42 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: are so calm. Look at these pictures of them, like 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: shopping in malls and like going to school? What else 44 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: are you supposed to do? What else are we supposed 45 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: to do? But I mean that this true. People have 46 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: been calmed. But since yesterday evening there definitely has been 47 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,399 Speaker 1: a shift. Um. And even casual conversation uh in key 48 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: of like I was sitting to paraphrase a famous columnists 49 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: usual framing, I was sitting in a cafe and overhearing 50 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: the wait staff chat amongst themselves. Um, and obviously the 51 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: the the whole conversation is oh is Putin going to 52 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: push into Kiev? And anecdotally we're semi anecdotally, I guess um, 53 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: apartment prices in the western cities like in Leviv and 54 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: nus Worod have really spiked up, like incredibly, um, so 55 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: that people are I wouldn't call that. That's a depressing 56 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: way to pay attention to, that a reason to pay 57 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: attention to that, Like, I wouldn't call it a mass panic. Um. 58 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: They're no like bank runs, No, like all the stores 59 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: are stocked. No, one's like hoarding. Um. But at the 60 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: same time, there is a study trickle of people going 61 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: west and kind of making plans at this point. Yeah, 62 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: and UM, so this to kind of give people a 63 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: little bit more context before we get into some of 64 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: the more citical dimensions of this. UM. Right now, there 65 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: has not been a massive escalation um of violence outside 66 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: of the areas where there have been fighting for several years. 67 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: You know, there has been an escalation on the front 68 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: line that's existed since UM, but there has not been like, 69 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, troops pouring across the border in other areas 70 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: and stuff. And that's obviously probably the number one worry. UM. 71 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: It looks like what's about to happen is or at 72 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: least it's hard to say, because Putin has recognized the 73 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: borders of this breakaway part of Ukraine as significantly larger 74 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: than the area they actually control, and he has moved troops, 75 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: Russian active duty troops into that area. Now, Russian troops, 76 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: I'm from what I've heard about three thousand have been 77 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: in the breakaway areas for years now, UM, but a 78 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: significant yeah, a significant number have been added now. And 79 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: obviously the fear is that because he has recognize the 80 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: territory of these these quote unquote in his terms, breakaway 81 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: republics is being much larger than what they control, that 82 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: Russian troops are going to participate with the separatists, um 83 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: in attacking and taking those territories from the Ukrainian government. Um, 84 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: that's one concern, obviously. The the concern attached to that 85 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: is that it would be not at all inconceivable for 86 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: a conflict that started that way to spread to a 87 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: much wider part of Ukraine. Um. This is all coming 88 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: alongside a speech Putin gave that, unfortunately, is going to 89 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,239 Speaker 1: be one of those things people here about in history books. Um. Yeah, 90 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: out of its god damn mind. And it's one of 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: those things. We will talk some more about how the 92 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: Western left sometimes I don't want to be like because 93 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: this is also largely the the online left, but how 94 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: the online left talks about Putin sometimes. This was not 95 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: a I want to return to the Soviet Union at speech. 96 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: This was I want to return to Czarist Russia's borders 97 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: type speech. Like the guy has the Czarist imperial crest 98 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: emblazoned on the gates to his palace. So I'm really 99 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: not sure what people would have expected. And unfortunately he's 100 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: better at his job than any of the last Tsars 101 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: were because he's he's achieved a notable amount of success 102 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: towards that goal already. Um, and yeah, he he a 103 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: number of things that were It's one of those, Like 104 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,559 Speaker 1: one of the things he said, which is a line 105 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: that folks like him in Russia have been saying for 106 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: a while, is that Ukraine, the existence of Ukraine as 107 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: an independent polity is a mistake. And as an anarchist, 108 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's this like, well, yeah, I don't I 109 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: don't like the Ukrainian state. I don't like any state 110 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: in particular. But if you're if your only disagreement is 111 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: with the statehood of Ukraine and you're fine with the 112 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: statehood of Russia, you know, then then perhaps what you 113 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: actually think is that people in Ukraine should not have 114 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: any autonomy to disagree with the government and moss scal um, 115 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: and I think that's the case here. Um. There's a 116 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: there's similarities between how Putin and those like him in 117 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: Russia treat Ukrainians, um with how, for example, the Turks 118 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: treat Kurds in the southern part of the country. There's 119 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: this this thing you'll hear a lot from Turkey, where 120 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: like there's no Kurds in Turkey. They're they're mountain Turks 121 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: who have lost their their language. And there's this denial 122 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 1: from Putin and the Russians that Ukrainians are a people, 123 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: that they exist, and there this this is something that 124 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: has translated. Most people have heard versions of this, and 125 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: just any of the coverage you've heard of Ukraine, if 126 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: you've ever heard of it referred to as the Ukraine, 127 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: what that is is part of a very old um 128 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: line that kind of exists to allow Russians to deny 129 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: the existence of Ukrainians as a people and make it 130 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: make it seem more like it's just kind of a 131 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: geographic region, which is not the case. And why you 132 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't refer to you wouldn't call it the Ukraine anymore 133 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: than you would call it the Canada. Um. It just 134 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: isn't the way you you say, should say that. But 135 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: um yeah, So I think that's at least enough of 136 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: a background to get into the real media what we 137 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: want to talk about. So and I'm just gonna kind 138 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: of open this up to you to chat about what 139 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: you'd like to say and what you think needs to 140 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: be gotten across to the international left, because internationalism is 141 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: something we value a lot here and it has been 142 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: hard to find in this conflict. Yeah, Like growing up 143 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: in New York in the nineties, one of the core 144 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: values I kind of absorbed, I guess through cosmosis is 145 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: the value that every single person I met, regardless of 146 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: whatever corner of the world they came from, is the 147 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: exact scene beings me UM. And it wasn't. And and 148 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: that kind of realization was one of the things that 149 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: I guess, I wouldn't say pushed, but UM conspired to 150 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: to turn me into a leftist, a socialist, Marxist UM. 151 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: And part of that, especially when I was learning about 152 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: what the hell all these isms were UM, was internationalism, 153 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: the idea that well, our struggle isn't within the the 154 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: fabricated borders of whatever UM polity has has decided to 155 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: impose their their authority UM. But internationally, every single workers 156 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: the same as every other worker. We're all struggling with 157 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: the same issues, We're all fighting the same forces UM, 158 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: and generally speaking, we have the same enemies. A. Now 159 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: fast forward to h I go online and what do 160 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: I see? Well, ukraineans are all Nazis or Ukraine shouldn't exist, 161 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: or how can we support either of those. It's two 162 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: fascist states fighting each other. And I'm sorry, Ukraine has 163 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: got a population of forty four million. You want to 164 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: tell mean that every single one of those forty four 165 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: million or Nazis. Like, people didn't even say that about Germany. 166 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: They were literally the Nazi state. I mean the United States, 167 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: um for that man, Like, we had four years of Trump, 168 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: an openly fascist, authoritarian leader, and no one seems to say, well, 169 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: I guess the US should be bombed. Well, I guess 170 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: there are some. I mean, there's definitely there's definitely people 171 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: who say that, but yeah, but generally speaking, that's not 172 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: exactly the view that people take, right. Um, So it's 173 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: it's been a long process of disappointment. Well, I say, long, Um, 174 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: there's always been the kind of well what are these 175 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: people really think about Ukraine? But breaft of such a 176 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: strong impetus to take a side, I guess, um that 177 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: hasn't been in the forefront. And now every day I 178 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: see people that I would have considered comrades, that I 179 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: would have considered um friends and brothers, just kind of 180 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: turned their back on me because I live here, right, 181 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: Any any aggression, any action that's taken will literally affect 182 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: me physically sitting here and you UM. So it's been 183 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: it's been really really immensely disheartening to see that every 184 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: single value UM that I thought the Left was supposed 185 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: to value, that that I thought the left was built 186 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: on um bet by people with throws emojis or hammer 187 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: and sickles in their user names or whatever the hell 188 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: it is. And we should probably talk about some of 189 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: why this is and what the what the history is here. 190 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: So the most kind of direct thing that people can 191 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: point to when they when they call Ukraine a fascist 192 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: state or when they talk about this is the existence 193 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: of the ass Off Battalion, the as Off Battalion as 194 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: a paramilitary organization. That means it's it's not officially a 195 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: part of the gun a mental military structure, but it 196 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: it does receive, has received arms from the government and 197 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: it UH functions as part of Ukraine's defense forces UM 198 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: for the for the purposes of of fighting off the 199 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: Russian back separatists UM and the as Off, Italian and Nazis. 200 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: There's there's you know, the you can there's been a 201 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of reporting on that on that matter, it's 202 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: a big problem in the Ukrainian government deserves a significant 203 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: amount of criticism for the degree to which as off 204 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: has been allowed to continue existing. UM. But there's also 205 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: a lot that gets left out when people focus on that, 206 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: including the fact that, for example, the political wing of 207 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: as off right sector, which is kind of the that 208 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: it would be fair to call it the umbrella term 209 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: for like the far right parties in the Ukraini Ukrainian 210 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: government have been pretty effectively siloed away from political power 211 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: through very active measures to about like what is one 212 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: percent of um like representation, and so it didn't actually 213 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: pass the threshold tantor the new parliament. Yeah, they're they're 214 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: nonentity politically, they're just non popular there. UM campaigns failed, 215 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: their models failed, their agitation fails. Ukrainians do not want 216 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: to vote for Nazis. Yeah, and it's it is. It 217 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: is a an ugly situation. And I remember talking with 218 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: when I was reporting on the might On uprisings, which 219 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: is when, again for people who aren't up on recent 220 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: Ukrainian history, they had a president who tried to do 221 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: a dictatorship UM, and people rose up and fought him 222 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: in the streets. UM. It was a very gnarly time, 223 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: about two hundred people were shot by government forces. Um. 224 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: And eventually the president was forced to flee the country, 225 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: which is what precipitated everything that's happening now, because that 226 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: president was pretty closely tied with Putin and the people 227 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: fighting him. UM. We're not all they were not pro 228 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: NATO rebels, but they were more definitely more supportive of 229 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: closer ties with Western Europe than they were with Russia. UM. 230 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: And that again, those are kind of the precipitating events 231 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: for everything that happened that's happening now. Um. And some 232 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: of the people who were fighting the president's forces were fascists. Um. 233 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: And it's one of those things. I remember talking with 234 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: protesters at the time who were like, well, am I 235 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: supposed to get in fight with them at the same 236 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: time as I'm trying not to get shot by riot police, 237 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: Like what what do you expect me to do? And 238 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: it is a nasty situation, and it's one of those things. UM. 239 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, like I don't know what to tell 240 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: people about that because it's it's it's ugly, and it's 241 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: uncomfortable and it's messy. And that's also Ukrainian history. There's 242 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: a lot of ugly, uncomfortable, messy things here is there's 243 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: with every country's history. It doesn't mean people in Kiev 244 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: deserve to have their housing blocks pounded by Russian artillery. 245 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that people in Nevdivka deserve to have their 246 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: homes pounded by artillery. Um. And whatever criticisms you want 247 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: to make about how the Russian or had the Ukrainian 248 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: government has handled as Off, and there are many criticisms 249 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to make, that's not really relevant to the people living 250 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: in these areas having their homes destroyed on a daily 251 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: basis by mortar fire. I just want to make like 252 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: a couple of things really clear. The as Off Battallion 253 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: is like a thousand guys like Max. And the reason, 254 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: one of the reasons at least that they rose to 255 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: such prominence in the beginning wasn't only there um ability 256 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: to to mobilize in the early stages of the Russian 257 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: war against Ukraine. It was also because they had very 258 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: strong financial backing um from the former Interior minister m 259 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: Arsenivakov and Ivankov is no longer in power, uh. And 260 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: one of the things you can see immediately was the 261 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: like almost Noah eying of fascist street marshes and fascist 262 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: demonstrations UM in Kiav outside the president's office. That all 263 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: vanished because more like in Ukraine, ideology is not very strong. 264 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: And this is something UM that I've noticed a lot 265 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: of people, uh from the US in your have trouble 266 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: understanding about Ukrainian politics. People here are not really ideological. 267 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: Our parties don't map UM. Aside from a couple of 268 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: outliers like rights actor UM, it doesn't really map to 269 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: any left right access UM. People typically will always want 270 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: the same policies, like they always want a pension, they 271 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: always want UM universal health care to be better, they 272 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: always want the roads fixed. UM generally policy something most 273 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: Ukrainians actually agree on UM. As a result, most of 274 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: our elections are purely personality based. That's one of the 275 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: reasons Zelenski Voladaimur's Lenski, our current president, one was because 276 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: he was a well known comedian. Yeah, and people liked 277 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: his personality, and he put out a whole TV show 278 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: as a PR stunt before launching his campaign, and people 279 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: voted for that personality these on screen h and so 280 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: when there was far right activity, and again I wonder 281 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: stress that that activity, even the street activity, has almost disappear. 282 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: It's because the far right is typically used in Ukraine 283 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: as a political tool by one oligarc were one interest 284 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: group against another. That's why when the money disappeared, they disappeared. 285 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: Because the leaderships, the leadership of these batist groups typically speaking, 286 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:46,239 Speaker 1: we're not um that ideological themselves. But they did like 287 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: having usuvs, and they did like buying guns and um, 288 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: hiring hookers and doing drugs. Like they liked the money 289 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: and that's why they did it. And they would convince 290 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: a bunch of teenagers to go out and wave a 291 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: couple of torture is in march or chance. But these 292 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: guys were really purely for the money. Um. And again 293 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: you can tell that because when their financial backward disappeared, 294 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,239 Speaker 1: then in order to be found. Yeah, and it's one 295 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: of those one of the things that is very frustrating 296 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: to me. I can't remember one of the earliest projects 297 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: that I did that was like a four belling cat. 298 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: As we were there was a Pride march in Kiev 299 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: that got attacked by Nazis. This was a couple of 300 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: years back, and we were kind of trying to identify 301 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: the individual fascists who are like beating people in the street, 302 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: and it's spending hours pouring over that footage. It makes 303 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: it incredibly frustrating that there are people outside of the 304 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: country boiling it down to while all of those people 305 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: are fascists, all of those people are part of a 306 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: fascist state. It's like, no, a lot of those people, 307 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: quite a few Ukrainians have fought Nazis in the streets, 308 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: you know. Um, that's a reality of the situation. And 309 00:18:54,440 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: it's it's um and it it's it's ugly in heart 310 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: because if you actually want to look at what's been happening, 311 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: uh with the Russian back separatists, there's a lot of 312 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: fascists over there. Um, there's a lot of paramilitary organizations 313 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: and like far right groups that have been used by 314 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: the Russian government. Yeah yeah, literally literally named because they're 315 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: fascist leader yeah Liken like many Nazis. It's it's it's 316 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: hard to to understand, honestly from my perspective, um, because 317 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: not only is Russian fascism have far more influence on 318 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: Russian policy than any Ukrainian fascists has ever had Ukrainian policy. Um, 319 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: it's also that the Russian project and the narrative they use. Um, 320 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: there there's this joke they call are not really joke, 321 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: a slurred they call they call Ukrainians Nazis. Been derrists 322 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 1: um for those who don't open Darrow was a Ukrainian 323 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: national leader of partisan fought against the Soviets UH and 324 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: he his organization was implicated in quite a few war crimes, 325 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: significant number of war crimes, war crimes. UH. So clearly 326 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: been near himself, probably not a great guy, yeah, but 327 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 1: to delegitimize all Ukrainian kind of independence movements that I've 328 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: propped up over the years, the Soviet government and now 329 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: the Russian government has always always insisted that there is 330 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: no legitimate way for Ukraine to be independent where all 331 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: Natzi been Darists no matter what. And that's why you 332 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: had Um. There's a picture a couple of days ago 333 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: of a solidarity marshan Kiev um with UH some of 334 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: Kiev's LGBT community holding up Bandaris flags. Not because they're 335 00:20:53,240 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: gay Nazis, because it's a way of yeah, retaking this 336 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: slur back from the Russians. And it's all part of 337 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: the complicating factor here is that because of how geo 338 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: politics worked out, in that period of time, there are 339 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable but kind of inextricable ties between uh Ukrainian 340 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: the basic idea of Ukraine being a nation independent from 341 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: Russia and anti communism, And because of what was going 342 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: on in anti communism in that period of time we're 343 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: talking the thirties and forties, it means that a decent 344 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: number of those early Ukrainian nationalists were either directly implicated 345 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: with the Nazis like Bandera, or at least had uncomfortable ties. 346 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: And that's a messy part of history that shouldn't be 347 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: shied away from. But for example, the same thing is 348 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 1: true of Finland. Like you can say the exact same 349 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: thing about sucking Finnish nationalism, Finnish sovereignty and whatnot, um, 350 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: And people don't call Finland a Nazi nation um even 351 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: though Yeah, the fact that they were stuck between the 352 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: U s SR and Nazi Germany means that there were 353 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: a lot of Fins in that period of time who 354 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: made some real fucked up choices um like. But also 355 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: there's a lot that has to be like, you can't 356 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: adequately discuss why those choices were made if you don't 357 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: talk about, for example, the holodomor you know, which was 358 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: the starvation genocide of several million Ukrainians by the Soviet government. 359 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: Like and honestly, to go back even further, um and 360 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: to I don't know, burnished my left its promountion a 361 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: little bit if you go back to the civil war itself, 362 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: where UM a lot of this started. Most of the 363 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: nationalist groups, I would say nearly all of them. There 364 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: were one or two monarchists minor monarchist groups in Ukraine. 365 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: The grand majority of them were in fact socialism or socialist. 366 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: They had like the hammer and sickle and wheats on 367 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: their currency and everything, because at the time that was 368 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: what one votes uh from the basm tree. But when 369 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks crushed every independent Ukrainian social movement in exchange 370 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: for bureaucrats that they imported from the Empire and just 371 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: shoved into Ukrainian cities, well then you had Ukrainians that 372 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: wanted to be independent and wanted to have a better 373 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: life than under the Tsar. Well now suddenly they don't 374 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: even have that support, um from the Bolsheviks. Uh. And 375 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: obviously as a Ukrainian, UM, I can't talk about this 376 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: without bringing up Nestro Macnu who was a anarchist leader, 377 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: the leader of the Ukrainian Black Army UM during the 378 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: Civil war, and what happened to them, Well, the Bolsheviks 379 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: betrayed them and killed all of them and curus the 380 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: movement UH and then smeared them all as um how 381 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: to file rapist cannibals if I remember correctly. Yeah, yeah, 382 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: there's a lot of of of disinformation you can find 383 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: about that time, just like today, you know, only the 384 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: names have changed exactly. So if there is no other 385 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: outlet for Ukrainian nationalism and the group that you thought 386 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: maybe an ally in UH destroying the empire in granting 387 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: you self determination turns out to be a continuation of 388 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: that exact empire, well it's pretty logical. Maybe not right, 389 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: but it is pretty logical for people go to the 390 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: for people to go to the other extream. And it's 391 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: one of those One of the things I think that 392 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: should be noted more, as we talked about earlier, is 393 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: that one of these stories of Ukrainian politics, particularly in 394 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: the last got close to a decade since the Maidan, 395 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: is that mainstream Ukrainian political leaders and Ukrainian voters have 396 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly rejected that sort of nationalism this time around, UM 397 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: and have gone out of their way to silo it 398 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: out of active political power. UM in a way that 399 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: one could argue is more successful than has been done 400 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: in the United States. UM. And absolutely we didn't get Trump. Yeah, no, 401 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: you get you guys basically elected John Stewart. UM pretty much. 402 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: I mean that was his UM. Yea, it was his 403 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: whole thing. He put on satirical political sketches, that was 404 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 1: the entire show. Um. We did basically elect John Stewart. 405 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: And you know, I have my criticisms of Zelenski, um 406 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: as a lot of people do. Uh. And one of 407 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: the things we love saying in Ukraine whenever people are like, oh, 408 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: look at all the look at all the Nazis there, 409 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: We're so not We're so anti semitic that we elected 410 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: a Jewish comedian. That's how. That's how anti semitic we are. 411 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: That we have huge minoures standing in the middle of 412 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: Kiev during the high holidays, that's how. That's how anti 413 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: semitic we are. Yeah. And and Zelenski's uh Prime Minister 414 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: is also a Jewish Man, which makes ukrain in the 415 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: second country in the world to have a Jewish President 416 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: and Prime Minister. Um. Yeah, like we don't care because 417 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: it's not it doesn't even come up in campaigns like 418 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: what even when Romney was running unc democratic campaigns painting 419 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: is a scary Mormon or the ads implying and you 420 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: don't even have that level of religious antipathy in Ukraine. 421 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: It's it's it's just a much more complicated We're actually 422 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: talking about the problems of the far right and and 423 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: a fascism, you know, in Ukraine. It's a much more 424 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: complicated story than a lot of people on you know, 425 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: social media or whatnot want to give it credit to 426 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: because it's just easy to some things up in one 427 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: sentence and not have to care about a looming humanitarian catastrophe. 428 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: But that is what we are looking at. If this invasion, 429 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,719 Speaker 1: it will be bad. If Russia uses active forces in 430 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: order to take the remainder of those two provinces from 431 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian government, it will be a nightmare of almost 432 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: unimaginable consequence. If the invasion proceeds on the wider scale 433 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: that is possible at this point. Um Um. I've been 434 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: a dummer on this basically since I first heard about 435 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: the build up, um because Putin has made it very 436 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: clear over the years what he considers Ukraine to be. 437 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: Like you mentioned, he doesn't think that Ukraine should exist 438 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: as like a polity. UM. And as a result, I 439 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: have pretty much this whole time been pretty sure that 440 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: he's gonna attack you. UM. And now we're coming to 441 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: a very definite tipping point. Um. Just today, Putin's made 442 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: a lot of moves UM. Like you mentioned, he authorized 443 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: military force to be used um in the Damas and 444 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: actually he's gone further. He's authorized military forced to be 445 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: used abroad, UH, which I mean obviously that means Ukraine 446 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: where else that's where is like the about I think 447 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: seventy of the entire Russian army is currently around Ukraine 448 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: or close enough that they can reinforce um without a 449 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: lot Yeah, at least of the active duty, because the 450 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: Russian military there's a smaller actually competent right yeah yeah, yes, 451 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: but the professional the contract soldiers yes, um. And especially 452 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: on the northern border, Uh, there are a lot of 453 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: battalion tact groups that are basically sitting and waiting, I 454 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: guess for whatever the order will be eventually um. And 455 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: in Belarus, and since Putin has given this authorization to 456 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: operate abroad, and he stated that he recognizes these puppet 457 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: authorities as I qual him um that he recognizes their 458 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: borders as the entirety of the Donetsk lukonsk o BLUs, 459 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: which again only a third of those territories are under 460 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: the de facto control of public authorities. Two thirds of 461 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: both provinces are still um andre Ukrainian government control, including 462 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: the the critical port city of Marieuple. And now that 463 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: Putin has authorized forced to be used abroad, well it's 464 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: kind of I mean, at least it is incredibly obvious 465 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: to me what the next steps are from the Russian perspective, 466 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: if I want to subjectate you right, um, And I 467 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: think a big failing here is people in the West, 468 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: especially the western left. Um no very little of for example, 469 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: the Chechen wars, especially the Second War, and what happened 470 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: to Rosnie yeah after during that war, and what the 471 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: Russians did the subjects that population. And if anyone thinks 472 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: that Putin treasures Ukrainian lives any more than he did 473 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: Chechen lives, then I've got a bridge of the rod 474 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: to sell them. Though you should act now because the 475 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: valley's gonna drop real fast. Yeah. And it's one of 476 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: those if you, as a good leftist, have spent a 477 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: significant amount of time reading about the horrific crimes of 478 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: imperialist nations in Africa and Southeast Asia in the America's UM, 479 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: what the Russian Federation did there is on that scale. 480 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: It's it's absolutely on that scale. It was. It was 481 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: a titanically ugly war. UM, and any modernly we can 482 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: look at what they did in Syria or what they 483 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: are doing in Syria, what they continue to do in Syria. UM. 484 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: But as it turns out, UM, Syrians learned this lesson 485 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: that I am learning now about big portions of the 486 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: um Western left a long time ago, yeah, which is 487 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: that if you can find, for example, some Syrian rebels 488 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: who are shitty and Islamists or whatever, you can tar 489 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: every single person whoever stood up against Bashar al Assa 490 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: as a as a terrorist UM, which is really easy, 491 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: especially if you're getting paid Kremlin money to advance that 492 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: line and you your name is Ben Norton. This brings 493 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: us to the place where there really aren't clear answers, 494 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: which is like what can be done? And it is 495 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like, well, uh, that's 496 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: not an easy question because you do have to when 497 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: you start grappling with like all right, well, like should 498 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: what should NATO do? What should other European non NATO 499 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: nations do? Like what what? What is actually capable of 500 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: like potentially altering or disrupting the courses of action here 501 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: while we're talking about the Russian state which has a 502 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: lot of nukes, Um, we're talking about a situation that 503 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: could spiral out of control in a way that very 504 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: few sitch c Asians globally are capable of potentially spiring 505 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: spiraling out of control. And so it is a not 506 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: a situation where anyone who tells you this is clearly 507 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: the thing to do that will work, is I think 508 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: trying to is probably full of ship and a little 509 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: unhinged um because this is a real fucking ugly one. Um. 510 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: But some of what has been done, Um, we just 511 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: got the news today that I think we both found surprising, 512 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: but it is very positive that the Germans have canceled 513 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: construction of the Nord Stream to pipeline, which is a 514 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: gas pipeline from Russia into the EU. Um that a 515 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: lot of folks were saying Germany was not going to 516 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: take any sort of stances, solid stances on Ukraine's behalf 517 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: because of that pipeline, because of how Germany, along with 518 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: a lot of Western Europe, is tremendously reliant upon Russian 519 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: gas exports, um for just like keeping themselves heated in 520 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,479 Speaker 1: the winter. UM. So that's a positive move. I I 521 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: tend to be critical of the ability of sanctions to 522 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: do much um. And if we're looking historically at sanctions, 523 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: particularly how they're most often implied, they have a tendency 524 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: to just harm regular people more than they have to 525 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: do it. Like we can look at the sanctions in 526 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: Iraq right which which we're part of why something like 527 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: a million people starved. UM. We are talking about different 528 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: kinds of sanctions in general, and we're talking about the 529 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: sanctions being imposed by NATO countries against the Russian state 530 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: right now. They're largely sanctions against members of the Duma. UM. 531 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: There's there's a lot. It's not the same as looking 532 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: at like what was being done to Saddam's Iraq. That said, 533 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm still very hesitant to say I think that sanctions 534 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: are going to disrupt Putin's course of action. I'm curious 535 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: what you think can and should be done here. You know, 536 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: like what is do you have any kind of clear 537 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: idea in your own head about what might have a 538 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: disruptive effect on on what Putin is doing? Learn a 539 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: tele important shoot Putin in the head with a nimillionator. 540 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: I mean that would be that'd be great. There's can 541 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: we that had we that teleportation capacity, there would be 542 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: a list, you know, put my skill points into that. UM. 543 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: But realistically speaking, the Russian state is authoritarian. It doesn't 544 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 1: really care what its own citizens think. It definitely doesn't 545 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: care what other people think. However, UM, Russia has been, 546 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: at least in um the modern realm, relatively image conscious. UM. 547 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: Which is why I think one thing that could work, 548 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: for example or not, could work, but would perhaps force 549 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: the Russian state to consider its actions a little bit 550 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: more carefully. And I want to be very clear when 551 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: I talk about the Russian state, I'm talking about Putin himself. Yeah, 552 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: the government, he has no there's no like other decision 553 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: makers in Russia. And that was actually perfectly encapsulated um 554 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: during his speech the other day where he just outright, 555 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: um like eviscerated the head of his foreign intelligence service. 556 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm live TV for the whole world to see, just 557 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: utterly humiliated the guy for no real reason, just because 558 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: he can and you could see that. And we're talking 559 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: about Russia's top spy. I mean beyond Puttin himself stammering 560 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: like a frightened school child when Puttin addressed him, just 561 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: with just a hint of sharpness. Um. So when I 562 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: say to the Russians, say, I'm referring literally to the 563 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:43,959 Speaker 1: body in person of of of Vladiman Puttin. Um, And like, honestly, yeah, 564 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: I would love to see people pick itt Russian embassies 565 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: and make demonstrations and marches and so on. Um. Do 566 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: I think that will have a practical real effect, to 567 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: be honest, No, saying with the sanctions, Um, I'm sure 568 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: Putin's pet oligarchs and members of his party and the 569 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: uh the people that in theory keep him in power. Um, 570 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: the oligarchs, the the Polmentarians, the mafia lords and so on, 571 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure they're gonna be pretty mift if their yachts 572 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 1: and their multimillion dollar properties in Miami and New York, 573 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: in London and the villainism the French riviera. When when 574 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: all that gets taken, I'm sure, they'll they'll be pretty annoyed. Um, 575 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: But I don't think Putin cares. I think that he 576 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: has a really irrational um desire to subjugate Kiev. Specifically, Um, 577 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: he sees Kiev as um what we call in Russian 578 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: the mother of all Russian cities. Yeah, it's the um 579 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: the place of the Kivan Ruce. Yeah, the word Russian 580 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: comes from Kievan Ruce, you know, exactly exactly. And I 581 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: just don't think that Putin is going to turn away 582 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: from that goal because a couple of his buddies are 583 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: complaining that they're mega yotts got taken in by the 584 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: British authorities or whatever. Nor do I think they're gonna 585 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: care that. You know, there are a couple of marchers 586 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: outside of embassies in New Yorker or something. Um, but 587 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: that may help spur the world as a whole, the 588 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,479 Speaker 1: international community into taking a harder line stance against because 589 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: timey con time and again, Um, like the guy's a gangster, 590 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 1: he's he's like a security service thug. If you've ever 591 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: like interacted with like a petty like sergeant, police sergeant 592 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: or something that has just a bit of authority and 593 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: pretty much shown comunity that that's put into a te um. 594 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: The dude thinks he's over educated. Uh and the cleverest 595 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: manble Yeah, I think. But really, the way he talks, 596 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: in the way he's acts, he's just a bullief. He's 597 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: he's he's got the same basic personality as like Villan Weather, 598 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: you know, the fucking head of the Los Angeles sheriff Department. 599 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: He's like, not like a beat cop, but like one 600 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: of the cops who rises to run a union or 601 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: run a city police department. Yeah, he's good at consolidating power. 602 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: He's good at at exercising organizing others to exercise violence 603 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: on his behalf. But yeah, at the end of the day, 604 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: he is primarily a bully. And it's one of those um, 605 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. Like when it comes to arms shipments, 606 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: that is a historically Again, if you look at the 607 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: history of partic like let's just say specifically NATO shipping 608 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: arms places most of the time that does not improve 609 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: the situation for people in that country. That that has 610 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: been a historical reality of arms shipment. It's not just 611 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: with NATO as a general rule, everywhere, when you ship 612 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 1: more guns into an area that that rarely improves quality 613 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: of life. Um. But we are not talking about a 614 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: country that has had any kind of centralized political legitimacy 615 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: or what not collapse. You when not talking about a 616 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: country that is in the middle of tearing itself apart 617 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: between thirty or forty different sides. Um, it's not the 618 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: same situation as well. Let ship a bunch of guns 619 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: to Libya, you know. Um, it just isn't there different histories, 620 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: different political realities on the ground. I don't know that 621 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: I actually think any amount of arms shipments would dissuade 622 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: Putin from advancing either. Um, But I I don't know 623 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: what else to do. I certainly am not against the 624 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: idea of like, Okay, guys have some a G T 625 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: M s, you know, have some wire guided missiles, have 626 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: some javelins, um, Because like what else are you gonna do? Um? 627 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: I mean we're not going to and I'm certainly not 628 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: saying we should send US troops in um, because again 629 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: we have to consider the nuclear situation too. Um. What 630 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,919 Speaker 1: do you think is where? Where are your thoughts there? Um? 631 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: Because this is something that I'm very I'm very mixed on, 632 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: although and I'm broadly fine with Yeah, I mean at 633 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: least give people the ability to fight back. Yeah, it's 634 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: a difficult one, especially like you noted, the military industrial 635 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: complex has very rarely improved any situation in the world anywhere. Yep. 636 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: This might be one of the few exceptions, um, because 637 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: the fact is that Ukraine doesn't really have the tools 638 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: to defend these to defend ourselves we have, um, or 639 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: at least our government claims that we have the strongest 640 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: army in Europe, which, to be honest, with all the 641 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: defense cuts that Europe can come in made years, that 642 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: may be true, um, at least on the ground sense. 643 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,280 Speaker 1: Certainly the most combat experienced army in here. Yeah, absolutely, UM. 644 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: But what we lack entirely is air power and air 645 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: defense UM. And what Russia has in spades is air 646 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: power and air defense. And as we saw UM when 647 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: the US invaded Rock Well, you can destroy conventional army 648 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: in a couple of days by just bombing the ship 649 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 1: out of it uh. And the Russians have quite a 650 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,919 Speaker 1: few missiles UM aimed straight at Kiev UH and quite 651 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: a view planes waiting on standby. I presume to bomb 652 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: the ship out of Kiev UH. And it would be 653 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: nice to have some way to to defend ourselves against that. Um. 654 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: But again there's there's not much that can be said. Yeah, 655 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: of course stingers and javelins and so on, Um, that 656 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: will all help raise the costs of the occupation that 657 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: follows the initial bombardment. But if Putin goes for the 658 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: strategy that ASSAD has used in Syria, which is bomb 659 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: the living ship out of every civilian residential area in 660 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: the city until the people just submit or are all dead, um, well, 661 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: there's not really too much we can do about that. 662 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,919 Speaker 1: And that is like, there is a lot that individual 663 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: that that trained and motivated soldiers with small arms and 664 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: munitions like javelins can do, even to resist a country 665 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: with with overwhelming air power. The corollary to that is 666 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: that in doing that a lot of stuff, everyone around 667 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: them dies. The city has turned into a graveyard. Um. 668 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: I've I've seen that with my own eyes. And that's 669 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: that's I mean, got to be the thing if you're 670 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: looking at this with any kind of reasonable lies and 671 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: not just like trying to find a political angle to support, 672 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 1: that has to be your main concern is that the 673 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: potential here is for a tremendous loss of life and 674 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: also for the creation of millions of refugees. Um. And 675 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: this is something in another of audio clip that you 676 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: published a bit earlier on Twitter, you say, which is 677 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: that like, if this goes as badly as it can, 678 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: no matter what your politics are, this will become your 679 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: problem one to present. Yeah. I stand behind that absolutely, 680 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: because there are a lot of Ukrainians and while most 681 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: of us have no desire to live under the Russian yoke, 682 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 1: the majority of us are not trained fighters. Were just people, 683 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: just regular people. And I know, especially in the US, um, 684 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:26,399 Speaker 1: with our like out of control gun culture, imagining like 685 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: they're the singular guy, you know, they're they're the macho man, uh, 686 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: with with all the guns, they take down the government 687 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,439 Speaker 1: all by themselves. I'm sorry, it's a fantasy. It's a fiction. Um, 688 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: that is not how things work. Uh. And quite frankly, 689 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: most people are not psychologically suited to combat. That's why 690 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: armies take so long to break soldiers down to teach 691 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: them to murder people, because that is not something humans 692 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: do naturally. And the majority of people subjected to that 693 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: kind of violence will run. And again they're forty million 694 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: of us, and they will run and run and run. 695 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: Pretty much everyone in the world. You saw this with Syria, 696 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,520 Speaker 1: all this with Libya. Um, you've seen this pretty much 697 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: with every single place that has experienced massive violence in 698 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 1: the modern world. Um, that's the reaction. Yeah, and that's 699 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: when we run. We bring all of our biases and 700 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: problems and cultural predilections to you m hm. And it's yeah, 701 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's really the note to end on. 702 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: And it is you get a lot of folks you 703 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: know who who rightly you know, focus on and think 704 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: a lot about revolutionary struggles in places like Vietnam and 705 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,919 Speaker 1: um in an Afghanistan and will point out that like, well, 706 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: you don't need to have as advanced to military as 707 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: your opponent to win. And again, just the corollary to that, all, Yeah, 708 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: the corollary to that is that, like, yeah, but millions 709 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 1: of people die. Millions of people die in Afghanistan, millions 710 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,360 Speaker 1: of people died in Vietnam. Um, that's that. That is 711 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 1: the reality. Yeah, you can resist an imperial power with 712 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: minimal technology, but you're not going to leave that fight 713 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: with a family alive still, you know, Like that's that's 714 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: how it goes. Um, So let's all say a little 715 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: prayer for I don't know, peace. Uh, I hope the 716 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 1: worst doesn't happen. Um. What has there been kind of 717 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,280 Speaker 1: mobilization that you've seen within the the activist the anarchist 718 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: community in in Kiev, Um to you know, any kind 719 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: of mutual aid stuff like or is it just one 720 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: of those situations where it hasn't started happening yet and 721 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 1: nobody really knows what would even be useful to do 722 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: if it does. I'll say this, Um, it may come 723 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: as a little bit of a shock, but anarchies not 724 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: typically the best of organis yeah. Um. Specifically, like a 725 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: lot of my uh, the friends who are active in 726 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: the interchist Um movement in Ukraine have simply joined the 727 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: territorial defense battalions or the regular army and will simply 728 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:22,360 Speaker 1: fight as soldiers. Um. There has been a very strong 729 00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if you called denial. Um. A colleague 730 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,439 Speaker 1: of mine used the term doomed optimism, and I really 731 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: like the sound of that, so let's go with that. 732 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: There's been this really strong doomed optimism amongst Ukrainians that 733 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: the worst will not happen and there's no real reason 734 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: to prepare for anything because well, things are going to 735 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: be fine. Um. And that's what our government tells us 736 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: as well. Things are going to be fine. They don't 737 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: see any massive attack groups or I mean I feel 738 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: like that's contradicted by the the open source intelligence that 739 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: I've been looking at. But I I am just one guy. 740 00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: I obviously don't have intelligence apparatus of the nations eight Um. 741 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: So I mean maybe they're right, um, but generally speaking, 742 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: people have just been joining the army, going to um 743 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 1: tactical trainings. Um. But this is all very basic stuff 744 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: like go in the woods, learn how to set up 745 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,399 Speaker 1: camp and you know, clean a rifle kind of kind 746 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: of things. UM. Nothing like combat training, because where would 747 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 1: you get that except by joining the army and going 748 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: to the front. Yeah, it's the kind of training that 749 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: might keep in the event of a full conflict when 750 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: out of ten of those people alive long enough to 751 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: learn how to fight, and and that might be worth it. Yeah, 752 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,760 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, if you're talking about like, yes, not 753 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,839 Speaker 1: not to say people shouldn't be doing that, because people 754 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: should do whatever they can. Um, how are you kind 755 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: of a close out like as this like doom scrolling 756 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: is the thing we all talk about, and there's there's 757 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: plenty image sitting here in Portland. We just had a 758 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: mass shooting in a protest this week again, and so 759 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 1: there's a lot of doom scrolling going on in my community. 760 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: But we're not staring down the barrel of a hundred 761 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:10,279 Speaker 1: and nine soldiers, you know, potentially uh, hitting us from 762 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,399 Speaker 1: the air and ground simultaneously. How do you How are 763 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 1: you like focusing on the stuff that you can do 764 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 1: anything about and the stuff that you can productively handle 765 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: without losing yourself in that opious amounts of cannabis. That's good. 766 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad you guys have decent pod access. Yeah, I 767 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 1: actually don't know what I'll do if, um, if my 768 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: current supplies got out to be quite honest, um, But 769 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 1: I mean it's been definitely a struggle. Um. And the 770 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: past couple of days, especially my mental health has not 771 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: been especially great. Um. But again, I'm one dude. Like, 772 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,320 Speaker 1: I'm not in very good shape, i have or vision, 773 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: one of my eyes don't work, I'm diabetic. Like, I'm 774 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,279 Speaker 1: not gonna go out and grab a rifle and start 775 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 1: killing every rooskie I see you know, um. But at 776 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 1: the same time, I've got a job to do. I 777 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: as an English language journalist, in Ukraine. Um, I have 778 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,920 Speaker 1: this is your busy season. Yeah, it's my busies. Like 779 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,800 Speaker 1: one of my jobs is to counter Russian distant information 780 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: and too like tell people the truth of what is 781 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: going on here um, and that role will only get 782 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:36,839 Speaker 1: more important if the the conflict expands, um from from 783 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,960 Speaker 1: the scope that it is now. Uh So how am 784 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,840 Speaker 1: I doing? Well? I'm still alive, um, having off myself 785 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,399 Speaker 1: and uh I'm still I'm still working. So I think 786 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: as as good as I can be under the circumstances. Yeah. Yeah, um, 787 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,399 Speaker 1: well I hope your weeds supply stays stable um at 788 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: the very fun fingers yeah. Um, all right, well, thank 789 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,840 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on the show, Romeo. Do 790 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,399 Speaker 1: you have anything you want to plug kind of as 791 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,960 Speaker 1: we as we go out here, um, just if you 792 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,840 Speaker 1: really want to know about what's going down in Ukraine, 793 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: I am co host of the podcast called You Bring 794 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,839 Speaker 1: Without Hype and find it on any podcast platform um. 795 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: And if you really want to get a look out 796 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 1: what's going on in English um with only a tinge 797 00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 1: of leftist bias, um, then tune in. You can follow 798 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: us on Twitter, Hype ukrane um and again on any 799 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:42,760 Speaker 1: podcast platform that you you so desire awesome, Well, check 800 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 1: out Romeo there, check out this podcast, and you know, 801 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,399 Speaker 1: just try to keep your eyes on the situation and 802 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,200 Speaker 1: don't let yourself be uh overwhelmed by what's Some random 803 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,480 Speaker 1: person on Twitter tries to sum it up, as you know, 804 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: people are more complicated than that. It could Happen here 805 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 806 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,800 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 807 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 808 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,799 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 809 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 810 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 811 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: for listening.