WEBVTT - A Man Dies From Eating a Hamburger and Babies Hospitalized With Botulism; Scary Headlines Explained By a Microbiologist 0:00:02.000 --> 0:00:07.240 A healthy forty seven year old man died hours after 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:12.799 eating a hamburger, and this incident and how he ended 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:17.200 up with a meat allergy is something now doctors are 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:22.680 trying to raise awareness about. Welcome to this episode of 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.440 Amy and TJ Robes. This is something you saw the headlines. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:28.720 I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? And 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.639 it was worth a headline because this is something that 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.000 has never ever happened before. 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:38.879 Yes, this is the first known death tied to an 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:40.159 allergic reaction to. 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.160 Red meat caused by a tick bite. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.080 This scared the heck out of me because a few 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:51.040 years ago I actually ended up with a tickborn illness. 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.640 Never knew I was bitten by a tick, never had 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.200 any other symptoms other than a high fever and muscle aches. 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:00.280 Went to the doctor and it takes a lot to 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.240 get me into the doctor's office these days. And was 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:08.120 shocked so then to think, my god, this guy didn't 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:10.920 realize he had been bitten by a tick. I had 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:17.160 no idea that a tick could cause a red meat allergy. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.120 What was your tickborn illness? 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:20.760 It was Rocky Mountain spotted fever. 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:23.720 I was actually covering a hurricane in North Carolina, I 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.440 was in floodwaters. Obviously, somehow, some way a tick got 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.160 on me, and within a week I got back home, 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:34.199 I started I had a high fever, I felt achy 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.040 and to the point where I was I didn't think 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:38.520 I could go to work, and I thought, you know what, 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.600 I better just go ahead, given my crazy medical history, 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:43.319 and have a. 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:44.040 Doctor take a look. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:45.960 She took blood work from me and she said, well, 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:47.880 you got a tickborn illness. We got to get some 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:48.760 antibiotics in you. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:50.880 Okay, how soon did you catch it? 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.640 I caught it within the first phase, thank goodness. With 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.600 Rocky Mountain spotted fever, if you get an antibiotics within 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.320 the first couple of weeks, you're going to be fine. 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.240 When you don't know and you don't have symptoms that 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:04.600 other issues and other problems can arise. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.160 Okay, I didn't know this was the thing. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.640 I don't spend that much time throughout my life just 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.760 out in the woods, frankly, so this wasn't something that 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.960 I just grew up with an awareness of. Obviously, this 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.080 is a big deal, and people are aware of just 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:23.280 how dangerous the tick can be. This headline, yes, folks, 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.240 for the first time in recorded medical history, a person 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:35.399 has died after picking up an allergy. 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:35.440 From a tick bite. 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.560 A healthy, forty seven year old man from New Jersey 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:43.280 died after he had a tick bite. I guess he 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.480 did not realize it that tick bite resulted in him 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.720 developing a meat allergy that he, of course, at forty 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.160 seven his whole life, he hadn't had. So he develops 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.560 one and ends up dying. Now, this is the first 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.200 time it's ever happened, but ropes. I didn't realize that 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:04.880 this type of thing, at least a tick born what'd 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.280 you call it, illness born illness? I didn't realize it 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.160 was that common, But it's very uncommon that it got 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.959 to this point. But this is something Now, this did 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.120 not have to happen. And this is they're saying, at 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.200 least rope, this is something that people need, at least 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:26.320 not even if it's not the general public. Doctors, the 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.680 medical community needs to be on the lookout for this. 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:31.520 Right, it's rare enough that that might not be something 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.760 that doctors are aware of or at least consider or 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.160 think about. When someone comes in, you think food poisoning, 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:38.000 you think something else. 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.560 So we actually have an expert. 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:46.080 Here with us today happens to be my father, Michael Roboch, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.920 who is a microbiologist, And actually we were asking you, Dad, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.360 you're in town, and we were like asking you all 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.800 about this story because I was fascinated by it and 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.920 you provided a significant amount of insight into what this is. 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.120 But can you explain how getting bitten by a tick 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.200 or having a tick embed itself and you can lead 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:08.920 to a meat allergy? 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.240 Yeah, it's thanks for having me, It's great to be here. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:14.720 Welcome to the podcast. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:19.680 Yeah, I do, I do appreciate it. So yeah, I mean, 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.960 it's an interesting phenomenon. And in the case of this 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:29.040 individual in New Jersey, three weeks prior to him dying, 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:36.760 he had experienced symptoms after eating a steak and those 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.919 symptoms were things like hives and a rash and swelling, 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.440 and really didn't think anything of it. And then three 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:51.160 weeks later he has a hamburger at a barbecue and 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:55.000 within the next couple of hours he goes into anaphylactic 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:59.880 shock and dies. So what happened? What happened? His w 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.200 I've said he didn't have any tick bites, but later 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:09.480 examination showed that he did. She thought they were chiger bytes. 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.119 But they were actually a tick bite from the lone 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.719 star tick, and he had several From what I understand 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.920 and what happens, these ticks feed on mammalian blood out 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.919 in the wild, so they'll attach themselves to a deer 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:30.640 or any animal, and in doing so they take in 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:37.440 a compound called alpha gal and it's a molecule that's 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.160 carried in the saliva of these ticks after they fed 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:47.720 on mammalian blood. Subsequently, they can then bite a human 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.480 and in doing so, they deposit some of their saliva 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:57.400 into the bloodstream of the human and your body then 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:05.000 develops antibodies against this foreign molecule, and then you become 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:11.599 sensitized to this alpha gal which is found commonly in 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:20.919 mammalian meat, So beef, pork, lamb, goat, venison, any animal 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:27.000 mammal that you then subsequently consume can put you in 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.000 great danger because your body will now react to the 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.640 presence of that alpha gal molecule. 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:34.479 You're now allergic. 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.600 You're now allergic. Okay, just was he just. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.880 Unlucky and ran into this particular tick that just happened 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.440 to bite into some particular animal. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.000 Was this just an unlucky thing? 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.360 Well, think about it. Ticks normally feed on mammals, so 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.240 they're gonna get on mammals and they're going to be 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.960 sucking their blood and getting their nutrition from the animal. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:05.360 So most ticks probably are carrying this alpha gal molecule 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.839 in their saliva. So if you get a tick bite, 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.120 there's a very good chance that you know you've had 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:16.440 this introduced into your body and you could be at risk. 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.600 And remember now, the first symptoms the first time you 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.160 eat meat afterwards, and sometimes this takes a few weeks 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.880 to develop. It doesn't happen immediately. And if you eat 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.960 red meat and all of a sudden you're feeling like 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.360 you're getting the hives, or you're itching, or you feel 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.800 like you've got swelling going on, it would be a 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:44.400 very good time to talk to your doctor about understanding 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:48.120 what's happening. There is a blood test they can screen 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.680 for these antibodies, and if you are found to have 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:56.520 these antibodies, you would be well advised to cease eating 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:58.040 mammalion meat. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:07:58.600 Wow. 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.040 Now you can still eat you can still eat chicken, 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.760 and you can still eat fish, but you can't eat 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:06.200 the meat from a mammal. 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.480 Wow. So no burgers, no steak, no bacon, no pork, 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.400 no sausage, like all of the things that are such 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:12.960 a huge. 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:13.559 Part of our diet. 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:15.040 It would be a sad existence. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.559 But this so, this is the first known death from 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.240 this allergy. But you were telling us that, I mean, 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.800 obviously this is rare, so to speak. But when you 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.240 told me the numbers of people who doctors or scientists 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.840 believe may actually be living with this allergy, it was 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:35.920 a little shocking to me. 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.600 Yeah, the CDC is estimating that upwards of a half 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.680 a million people in the United States could be carrying 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:46.839 this sensitivity around with them and just not know it. 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:49.439 And you say sensitivity. 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:51.160 But when it comes to allergies, and you've told me 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:53.520 this because I've dealt with allergies in my life, every 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:58.000 time you're exposed then to whatever you have now developed 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.400 an allergy to, it can worsen and eventually lead to death. 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:05.200 Right, every time you get exposed, you're just priming your 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:10.280 immune system to pump out more and more antibodies, and 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.719 in doing so, then you can go into what is 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:17.560 known as anaphylactic shock, where you basically you're just your 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:22.320 immune system overwhelms your body and you end up dying. 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:25.440 Your body attacks itself. 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:26.120 That's right. 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.000 So this is potentially what happened to this guy, right 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.320 that first time around, he got really sick, right he 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.480 had that first bit of red meat. Now if someone 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.679 if he because I didn't know this, if he had 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.600 been aware that he had a tick bite, maybe after 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:44.960 he had gotten sick, he would have reacted differently. But 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.600 I don't know if I have a tick bite and 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.760 then I eat something and I don't feel well that 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:51.640 I need to go check out, get checked out. 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:52.360 Do people know this? 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:56.000 No, they don't. I mean, and I think that's why 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:00.520 this is coming into the headlines. It's to really create, 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.880 as you said earlier, TJ. Awareness. People need to be 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.320 aware that this exists. You know, it's been documented not 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.560 only in the United States, but also in other parts 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.000 of the world. There have been cases reported in Sweden, 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.840 in South Africa and Australia. So these have been documented 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.880 cases and there's now quite a bit of research going on, 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.559 you know, trying to understand the mechanism and are there 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.120 things that you can do because there is no cure. 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.520 There is no cure. I mean, it's really all about avoidance. 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.440 You know, if you've got a trigger and you have 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:40.640 this these antibodies floating around in your body. It's almost 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:42.880 what you could consider a ticking time bomb, you know, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:48.520 and the subsequent exposures make the reaction more and more severe. 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:49.560 So you're advice. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.680 So I'm now, I'm just having had that experience with 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.560 having a tick born illness and not even knowing I 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:57.480 was bitten by a tick. 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.640 It's scary. And I am an outdoorsy person. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.319 Any one who hikes, anyone who is outdoors is at 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.800 risk for being obviously bitten by a tick. 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.079 So what would you tell people? And you even said 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:10.640 doctors aren't. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.920 Even as aware as they should be, perhaps about this 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.160 particular situation where you could end up with a meat allergy. 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.800 But what should people be aware of if you get 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.240 hives for the first time, if you after eating something. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.400 It's just hard to connect the dots for lay people, 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.320 especially if you don't know you've been bitten by a tick. 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:34.840 What should be your level of awareness? What should be 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.320 your I don't know any guidance for folks. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.560 Well, I mean, really, the best thing is to avoid 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.199 getting bitten by a tick, you know, and so there 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.719 are steps that you can take, you know, to you know, 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.040 prevent a tick from getting on your body and biting you. 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.600 And if you do find a tick attached, the best 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.520 thing to do is to get it off of you 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.240 as soon as possible so that you minimize the amount 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.080 of this alpha gal molecule that enters your body. So 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.480 those are just the practical things to do. But again, 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:13.160 once that has been set in motion, once that allergy 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:17.680 is set in motion, there's no stopping it. And that's 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:19.440 what makes this so dangerous. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:23.000 Is there anything that doctors could have done, or that 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.800 anyone could have done to save this man, this New 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.280 Jersey man, once he already ate the hamburger, so this 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.240 is now his second exposure to red meat. Could they 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.839 have done anything to save his life? Had he known 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.880 this was an allergic reaction happening. 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.280 Not after he ate the hamburger? I mean, you know, 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.520 I mean if he had been able to be tested 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.280 after he got ill after eating the steak three weeks previous, 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.640 they may have been able to determine that he did 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:56.880 have this allergic potential and therefore he could have avoided 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:58.439 eating red meat. 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.479 Damn. 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.319 Can you We talk about kids growing out of allergies, 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.920 but as an adult, can you grow out of or 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.280 get medicated out of analogy or is it once you 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:14.720 get it? Is it just with you? Seriously? 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.559 Can you don't know this? 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.360 I mean, I mean, yeah, I think when when people 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.840 I mean your immune system. If you've got circulating antibodies, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:28.360 then those antibodies are there and they're just waiting for 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.880 that foreign molecule to show up so that they can 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.880 attack it, you know. And so that's just something that no, 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:39.400 we don't really have a cure for right now. 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.199 Once it's with you, it's with you. What do you say, 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:43.720 a sad existence, a meat allergy? 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:44.520 Can you imagine? 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.040 So just don't get bitten by a tick, that is 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:48.920 the advice, and that makes a lot of sense. And 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.200 there are things you can do in terms of the 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.320 clothing you wear, any sort of well you just you. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:55.840 Just don't hike. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.840 So there you go, Yeah, getting bitten by a tick 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:00.960 anytime soon. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.440 I went to a camp once as a kid, like 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.520 a week sleep away camp whatever thing. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.280 Yeah, and they had to check us for tics. When 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:09.959 we were going home. 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:11.240 I had to lift up and doing all the time, 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.760 like what are you all doing? Wasn't I wasn't rolling 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.800 around out there in the woods. I think I'm probably 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:18.920 fine all right, but stay with us here, folks. This 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.000 wasn't the only medical headline this week that had folks alarmed, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:38.320 in particular parents botulism in baby formula. Stay here, all right, folks, 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:39.200 Welcome back to Amy A. 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:44.280 TJ. Ropes. We had two medical headlines. 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.240 I was scratching my head about right, the first ever 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.240 death related to a tick born illness really with a 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.000 meat allergy, I mean, what the hell? We tried to 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.440 figure that out, and then all of a sudden, botulism. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.680 I have to admit, I had to google botulism. I 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.680 had to go back and try to figure out, like, 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.680 what are we talking about here? Botulism in baby formula 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.360 was a big headline this week, and you can imagine why. 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:14.800 Yes, twenty three babies in thirteen states got sickened and 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.800 were hospitalized because they were exposed to botulism in their 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:24.200 baby formula. This is what look I actually ended up for. 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.880 I had my own medical reasons why I actually had to. 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.000 My babies were formula babies. 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.280 To think that the thing you're giving your children to 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.600 nourish them, to help them grow in, to think that 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.040 you were actually poisoning them is so scary. You have 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.240 to trust formula. You have to be able to trust 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.840 what you're putting into your children. And so, yes, this 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:46.920 is frightening, as frightening as it gets. 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.160 Then you said the word poison, and when you say 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.400 that related to anything related to a child, it's terrifying. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.960 So by heart is the name of this company. They 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.000 flat out they pulled all of their products off the market, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.680 just pulled everything because botulism was detected. 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.040 Again, how many kids you say, twenty eight. 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:05.640 Twenty three? 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.800 This is this is rare and thankfully nobody was. 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.480 Actually no babies died as of yet. And I say that, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.120 just the potential is there. 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:19.640 Yes, this can be a deadly reaction to this neurotoxin. 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.200 And yes, speaking of neurotoxins, I don't know a lot 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.040 about the subject, but my dad certainly does, and he's 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:26.840 still here with us. 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.400 How did you react seeing that headline that folks were 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.360 that botulism was an issue. 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:38.240 Infant botulism isn't anything new. There have been cases in 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:45.760 the past of infant botulism associated with organic honey. There 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.400 was a big outbreak several years ago in California where 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.920 many infants were sickened because they were being fed organic 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:59.280 honey that contained the spores of Clousternium bochulinum, which is 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:04.679 the organism that produces the boculinum toxin. The disease is 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.320 called botulism, but it's caused by as amy set, a 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:13.679 neurotoxin produced by a bacteria called Clusternium boculinum. It's an 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:19.480 anaerobic bacteria, so it grows without the presence of oxygen, 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.920 and of course honey is a great place for these 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:28.320 spores to live because they're going to be kind of protected, 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.040 and then when the baby ingests them, the babies have 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:37.040 undeveloped microbiomes, so there's not a lot of competition in 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:42.160 the gut, so these botulism organisms are able to spoulate, 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:47.960 grow and produce a neurotoxin WOW, which can potentially be 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:54.040 deadly because it causes all sorts of neurological issues because 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:58.360 it blocks the synapse between your nerves and your muscles. 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:04.080 So essentially, your muscles cease to function because they're not 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.120 getting the message from your central nervous system. And when 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:13.040 death occurs, it often occurs because the diaphragm is essentially 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:19.119 paralyzed and you're unable to breathe, so it's not a 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:19.920 fun disease. 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:22.560 That's horrific. Actually, it is a. 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:28.680 Horrific and people in the past, having contracted botulism from 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.920 a variety of sources. People would be put on iron lungs, 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.280 you know in the old days, so that you know 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.720 that iron lung would breathe for you because your diaphragm 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:46.159 was unable to function. So it is a frightening situation. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:51.840 And by Heart whole nutrition infant formula, as Amy said, 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:56.560 there have been twenty three infants in thirteen states, and 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:02.840 there's epidemiological evidence and laboratory data showing that this infant 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:07.640 formula might be contaminated with clusterradium batchline which is causing 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:09.320 the illnesses around the country. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.360 Well, I would say you mentioned Dad that you there 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.680 was a recent or a similar situation with organic honey. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.480 That stood out to me because by Heart infant formula 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:25.120 is organic. They they that it's one of their their 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.359 organic infant formula. Does that have anything to do with it? 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:30.359 Is there any connection between those two things. 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.479 It's really hard to say. I mean, the investigation by 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:38.680 the FDA is still ongoing, so they haven't identified a source. 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:43.159 Was it an ingredient that went into the formula. Was 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.840 it something that happened during the manufacturing of the formula. 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.720 So there are still a lot of things that need 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:55.560 to be understood. I'm not familiar with their process or 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.520 how they source their ingredients. So that's something the FDA 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:03.000 will continue to to investigate. And you know, right now, 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:07.080 it's just top of mind that you know, we need 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.919 to be aware of this formula out there and if 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.399 anybody has any and in their home that it needs 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:15.440 to be destroyed. 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.880 What does that look botula? Where does it live? How 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:20.680 can it like on a surface? How can it get 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:21.600 into formula? 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.800 Hu well Klos treating Batchulinum is a it's a it's 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.520 a it's a spore and and so it can survive 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.360 in the soil, it can survive in water, it can 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.760 survive in a variety of different environments for a long 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.879 period of time. And then when it's put into an 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:43.800 environment where it can grow, then it goes through a 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:47.920 process that we call spoulation, and then the actual bacterium 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.560 cell begins to grow, and as it grows, it produces 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:59.000 this neurotoxin. So it's normally found in improperly processed canned 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.600 foods because those can foods would be anaerobic, there would 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.880 be no oxygen in there. And if they're not heated 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.920 long enough and at a high enough temperature, the spores 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:16.119 can survive. They'll survive pasteurization temperatures. So they have to 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:20.320 be what we call commercially sterilized. So if you get 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.440 like canned soups or anything like that, they've gone through 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:28.720 a commercially sterile process. So the bacteria the clusternim botch 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.760 A linum, and those cans have been destroyed. It has 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:36.680 been associated with vacuum package meat in the past where 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:42.080 that's been improperly processed and improperly stored. It hasn't been refrigerated. 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:46.679 Clustrini botchelinum. The types here are normally have to have 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.439 warm temperatures in order to grow. But what's dangerous is 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.919 when it's ingested by an infant who, as I said earlier, 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.959 has an undeveloped microbiome. There is no other competing organisms 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:02.520 in the gut to out compete this organism and drop 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.280 the pH of the gut down to an acidic level 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:06.960 that will not allow this bug to grow. 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:11.399 Well, Thank goodness, there have been no infant depths and 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:16.600 yes to your point. All federal officials, anyone involved with 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:17.520 this recall. 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.959 Have all urged parents get rid of this stuff. You 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:22.880 don't want it anywhere near you. 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:28.280 Is there anything or what should parents look out for 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:32.600 in terms of if your infant is experiencing or showing 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.399 any kind of symptoms, take them. You want them going 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.080 straight to the doctor or they can be tested for this. 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:40.280 How do they determine this what's going on? Okay? 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:42.840 Yeah, I mean they would. You'd want to take your 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:46.399 child to the pediatrician and have the symptoms, you know, 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.919 looked at and understand, you know, what might be going on, 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:56.520 and if there is an issue, they can there is 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:00.480 assistance for breathing. You know that could be a p Now, 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:05.960 all all of these children have been hospitalized, so they 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:10.280 were all taken to I'm assuming an emergency room and 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:12.800 they were put on some sort of a ventilator I 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:14.359 would assume to help them breathe. 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:17.800 Wow, because that's the scary thing. Mentioned that your lungs 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:23.200 literally get paralyzed. When we first did the story last week, bachulism, 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:24.240 I'm thinking botox. 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:26.080 Yeah, we paralyzed the muscles in. 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.720 Our faces so we can look younger and not create wrinkles, 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.120 But thinking about that as it applies to your lungs 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:36.200 or a little baby's lungs, that is altogether a very 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:37.000