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Speaker 1: A healthy forty seven year old man died hours after

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Speaker 1: eating a hamburger, and this incident and how he ended

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Speaker 1: up with a meat allergy is something now doctors are

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Speaker 1: trying to raise awareness about. Welcome to this episode of

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Speaker 1: Amy and TJ Robes. This is something you saw the headlines.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? And

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Speaker 1: it was worth a headline because this is something that

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Speaker 1: has never ever happened before.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is the first known death tied to an

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Speaker 2: allergic reaction to.

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Speaker 3: Red meat caused by a tick bite.

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Speaker 2: This scared the heck out of me because a few

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Speaker 2: years ago I actually ended up with a tickborn illness.

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Speaker 2: Never knew I was bitten by a tick, never had

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Speaker 2: any other symptoms other than a high fever and muscle aches.

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Speaker 2: Went to the doctor and it takes a lot to

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Speaker 2: get me into the doctor's office these days. And was

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Speaker 2: shocked so then to think, my god, this guy didn't

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Speaker 2: realize he had been bitten by a tick. I had

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Speaker 2: no idea that a tick could cause a red meat allergy.

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Speaker 4: What was your tickborn illness?

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Speaker 3: It was Rocky Mountain spotted fever.

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Speaker 2: I was actually covering a hurricane in North Carolina, I

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Speaker 2: was in floodwaters. Obviously, somehow, some way a tick got

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Speaker 2: on me, and within a week I got back home,

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Speaker 2: I started I had a high fever, I felt achy

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Speaker 2: and to the point where I was I didn't think

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Speaker 2: I could go to work, and I thought, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I better just go ahead, given my crazy medical history,

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Speaker 2: and have a.

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Speaker 3: Doctor take a look.

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Speaker 2: She took blood work from me and she said, well,

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Speaker 2: you got a tickborn illness. We got to get some

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Speaker 2: antibiotics in you.

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Speaker 4: Okay, how soon did you catch it?

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Speaker 2: I caught it within the first phase, thank goodness. With

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Speaker 2: Rocky Mountain spotted fever, if you get an antibiotics within

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Speaker 2: the first couple of weeks, you're going to be fine.

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Speaker 2: When you don't know and you don't have symptoms that

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Speaker 2: other issues and other problems can arise.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I didn't know this was the thing.

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Speaker 1: I don't spend that much time throughout my life just

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Speaker 1: out in the woods, frankly, so this wasn't something that

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Speaker 1: I just grew up with an awareness of. Obviously, this

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Speaker 1: is a big deal, and people are aware of just

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Speaker 1: how dangerous the tick can be. This headline, yes, folks,

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Speaker 1: for the first time in recorded medical history, a person

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Speaker 1: has died after picking up an allergy.

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Speaker 4: From a tick bite.

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Speaker 1: A healthy, forty seven year old man from New Jersey

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Speaker 1: died after he had a tick bite. I guess he

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Speaker 1: did not realize it that tick bite resulted in him

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Speaker 1: developing a meat allergy that he, of course, at forty

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Speaker 1: seven his whole life, he hadn't had. So he develops

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Speaker 1: one and ends up dying. Now, this is the first

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Speaker 1: time it's ever happened, but ropes. I didn't realize that

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Speaker 1: this type of thing, at least a tick born what'd

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Speaker 1: you call it, illness born illness? I didn't realize it

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Speaker 1: was that common, But it's very uncommon that it got

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Speaker 1: to this point. But this is something Now, this did

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Speaker 1: not have to happen. And this is they're saying, at

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Speaker 1: least rope, this is something that people need, at least

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Speaker 1: not even if it's not the general public. Doctors, the

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Speaker 1: medical community needs to be on the lookout for this.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's rare enough that that might not be something

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Speaker 2: that doctors are aware of or at least consider or

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Speaker 2: think about. When someone comes in, you think food poisoning,

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Speaker 2: you think something else.

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Speaker 3: So we actually have an expert.

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Speaker 2: Here with us today happens to be my father, Michael Roboch,

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Speaker 2: who is a microbiologist, And actually we were asking you, Dad,

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Speaker 2: you're in town, and we were like asking you all

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Speaker 2: about this story because I was fascinated by it and

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Speaker 2: you provided a significant amount of insight into what this is.

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Speaker 2: But can you explain how getting bitten by a tick

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Speaker 2: or having a tick embed itself and you can lead

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Speaker 2: to a meat allergy?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's thanks for having me, It's great to be here.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I do, I do appreciate it. So yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's an interesting phenomenon. And in the case of this

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Speaker 5: individual in New Jersey, three weeks prior to him dying,

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Speaker 5: he had experienced symptoms after eating a steak and those

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Speaker 5: symptoms were things like hives and a rash and swelling,

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Speaker 5: and really didn't think anything of it. And then three

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Speaker 5: weeks later he has a hamburger at a barbecue and

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Speaker 5: within the next couple of hours he goes into anaphylactic

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Speaker 5: shock and dies. So what happened? What happened? His w

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Speaker 5: I've said he didn't have any tick bites, but later

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Speaker 5: examination showed that he did. She thought they were chiger bytes.

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Speaker 5: But they were actually a tick bite from the lone

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Speaker 5: star tick, and he had several From what I understand

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Speaker 5: and what happens, these ticks feed on mammalian blood out

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Speaker 5: in the wild, so they'll attach themselves to a deer

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Speaker 5: or any animal, and in doing so they take in

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Speaker 5: a compound called alpha gal and it's a molecule that's

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Speaker 5: carried in the saliva of these ticks after they fed

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Speaker 5: on mammalian blood. Subsequently, they can then bite a human

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Speaker 5: and in doing so, they deposit some of their saliva

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Speaker 5: into the bloodstream of the human and your body then

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Speaker 5: develops antibodies against this foreign molecule, and then you become

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Speaker 5: sensitized to this alpha gal which is found commonly in

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Speaker 5: mammalian meat, So beef, pork, lamb, goat, venison, any animal

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Speaker 5: mammal that you then subsequently consume can put you in

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Speaker 5: great danger because your body will now react to the

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Speaker 5: presence of that alpha gal molecule.

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Speaker 4: You're now allergic.

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Speaker 5: You're now allergic. Okay, just was he just.

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Speaker 1: Unlucky and ran into this particular tick that just happened

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Speaker 1: to bite into some particular animal.

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Speaker 4: Was this just an unlucky thing?

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Speaker 5: Well, think about it. Ticks normally feed on mammals, so

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Speaker 5: they're gonna get on mammals and they're going to be

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Speaker 5: sucking their blood and getting their nutrition from the animal.

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Speaker 5: So most ticks probably are carrying this alpha gal molecule

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Speaker 5: in their saliva. So if you get a tick bite,

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Speaker 5: there's a very good chance that you know you've had

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Speaker 5: this introduced into your body and you could be at risk.

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Speaker 5: And remember now, the first symptoms the first time you

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Speaker 5: eat meat afterwards, and sometimes this takes a few weeks

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Speaker 5: to develop. It doesn't happen immediately. And if you eat

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Speaker 5: red meat and all of a sudden you're feeling like

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Speaker 5: you're getting the hives, or you're itching, or you feel

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Speaker 5: like you've got swelling going on, it would be a

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Speaker 5: very good time to talk to your doctor about understanding

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Speaker 5: what's happening. There is a blood test they can screen

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Speaker 5: for these antibodies, and if you are found to have

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Speaker 5: these antibodies, you would be well advised to cease eating

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Speaker 5: mammalion meat.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Now you can still eat you can still eat chicken,

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Speaker 5: and you can still eat fish, but you can't eat

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Speaker 5: the meat from a mammal.

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Speaker 2: Wow. So no burgers, no steak, no bacon, no pork,

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Speaker 2: no sausage, like all of the things that are such

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Speaker 2: a huge.

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Speaker 3: Part of our diet.

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Speaker 5: It would be a sad existence.

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Speaker 2: But this so, this is the first known death from

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Speaker 2: this allergy. But you were telling us that, I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously this is rare, so to speak. But when you

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Speaker 2: told me the numbers of people who doctors or scientists

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Speaker 2: believe may actually be living with this allergy, it was

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Speaker 2: a little shocking to me.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the CDC is estimating that upwards of a half

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Speaker 5: a million people in the United States could be carrying

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Speaker 5: this sensitivity around with them and just not know it.

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Speaker 3: And you say sensitivity.

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Speaker 2: But when it comes to allergies, and you've told me

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Speaker 2: this because I've dealt with allergies in my life, every

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Speaker 2: time you're exposed then to whatever you have now developed

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Speaker 2: an allergy to, it can worsen and eventually lead to death.

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Speaker 5: Right, every time you get exposed, you're just priming your

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Speaker 5: immune system to pump out more and more antibodies, and

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Speaker 5: in doing so, then you can go into what is

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Speaker 5: known as anaphylactic shock, where you basically you're just your

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Speaker 5: immune system overwhelms your body and you end up dying.

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Speaker 3: Your body attacks itself.

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Speaker 5: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So this is potentially what happened to this guy, right

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Speaker 1: that first time around, he got really sick, right he

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Speaker 1: had that first bit of red meat. Now if someone

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Speaker 1: if he because I didn't know this, if he had

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Speaker 1: been aware that he had a tick bite, maybe after

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Speaker 1: he had gotten sick, he would have reacted differently. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I have a tick bite and

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Speaker 1: then I eat something and I don't feel well that

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Speaker 1: I need to go check out, get checked out.

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Speaker 4: Do people know this?

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Speaker 5: No, they don't. I mean, and I think that's why

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Speaker 5: this is coming into the headlines. It's to really create,

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Speaker 5: as you said earlier, TJ. Awareness. People need to be

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Speaker 5: aware that this exists. You know, it's been documented not

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Speaker 5: only in the United States, but also in other parts

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Speaker 5: of the world. There have been cases reported in Sweden,

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Speaker 5: in South Africa and Australia. So these have been documented

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Speaker 5: cases and there's now quite a bit of research going on,

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Speaker 5: you know, trying to understand the mechanism and are there

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Speaker 5: things that you can do because there is no cure.

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Speaker 5: There is no cure. I mean, it's really all about avoidance.

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Speaker 5: You know, if you've got a trigger and you have

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Speaker 5: this these antibodies floating around in your body. It's almost

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Speaker 5: what you could consider a ticking time bomb, you know,

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Speaker 5: and the subsequent exposures make the reaction more and more severe.

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Speaker 3: So you're advice.

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Speaker 2: So I'm now, I'm just having had that experience with

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Speaker 2: having a tick born illness and not even knowing I

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Speaker 2: was bitten by a tick.

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Speaker 3: It's scary. And I am an outdoorsy person.

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Speaker 2: Any one who hikes, anyone who is outdoors is at

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Speaker 2: risk for being obviously bitten by a tick.

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Speaker 3: So what would you tell people? And you even said

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Speaker 3: doctors aren't.

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Speaker 2: Even as aware as they should be, perhaps about this

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Speaker 2: particular situation where you could end up with a meat allergy.

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Speaker 2: But what should people be aware of if you get

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Speaker 2: hives for the first time, if you after eating something.

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Speaker 2: It's just hard to connect the dots for lay people,

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Speaker 2: especially if you don't know you've been bitten by a tick.

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Speaker 2: What should be your level of awareness? What should be

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Speaker 2: your I don't know any guidance for folks.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, really, the best thing is to avoid

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Speaker 5: getting bitten by a tick, you know, and so there

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Speaker 5: are steps that you can take, you know, to you know,

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Speaker 5: prevent a tick from getting on your body and biting you.

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Speaker 5: And if you do find a tick attached, the best

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Speaker 5: thing to do is to get it off of you

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Speaker 5: as soon as possible so that you minimize the amount

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Speaker 5: of this alpha gal molecule that enters your body. So

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Speaker 5: those are just the practical things to do. But again,

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Speaker 5: once that has been set in motion, once that allergy

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Speaker 5: is set in motion, there's no stopping it. And that's

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Speaker 5: what makes this so dangerous.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that doctors could have done, or that

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Speaker 2: anyone could have done to save this man, this New

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Speaker 2: Jersey man, once he already ate the hamburger, so this

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Speaker 2: is now his second exposure to red meat. Could they

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Speaker 2: have done anything to save his life? Had he known

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Speaker 2: this was an allergic reaction happening.

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Speaker 5: Not after he ate the hamburger? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 5: I mean if he had been able to be tested

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Speaker 5: after he got ill after eating the steak three weeks previous,

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Speaker 5: they may have been able to determine that he did

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Speaker 5: have this allergic potential and therefore he could have avoided

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Speaker 5: eating red meat.

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Speaker 4: Damn.

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Speaker 1: Can you We talk about kids growing out of allergies,

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Speaker 1: but as an adult, can you grow out of or

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Speaker 1: get medicated out of analogy or is it once you

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Speaker 1: get it? Is it just with you? Seriously?

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Speaker 4: Can you don't know this?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, yeah, I think when when people

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Speaker 5: I mean your immune system. If you've got circulating antibodies,

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Speaker 5: then those antibodies are there and they're just waiting for

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Speaker 5: that foreign molecule to show up so that they can

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Speaker 5: attack it, you know. And so that's just something that no,

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Speaker 5: we don't really have a cure for right now.

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Speaker 1: Once it's with you, it's with you. What do you say,

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Speaker 1: a sad existence, a meat allergy?

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Speaker 4: Can you imagine?

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Speaker 2: So just don't get bitten by a tick, that is

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Speaker 2: the advice, and that makes a lot of sense. And

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Speaker 2: there are things you can do in terms of the

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Speaker 2: clothing you wear, any sort of well you just you.

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Speaker 3: Just don't hike.

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Speaker 2: So there you go, Yeah, getting bitten by a tick

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Speaker 2: anytime soon.

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Speaker 1: I went to a camp once as a kid, like

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Speaker 1: a week sleep away camp whatever thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and they had to check us for tics. When

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Speaker 4: we were going home.

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Speaker 1: I had to lift up and doing all the time,

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Speaker 1: like what are you all doing? Wasn't I wasn't rolling

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Speaker 1: around out there in the woods. I think I'm probably

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Speaker 1: fine all right, but stay with us here, folks. This

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Speaker 1: wasn't the only medical headline this week that had folks alarmed,

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Speaker 1: in particular parents botulism in baby formula. Stay here, all right, folks,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Amy A.

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Speaker 4: TJ. Ropes. We had two medical headlines.

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Speaker 1: I was scratching my head about right, the first ever

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Speaker 1: death related to a tick born illness really with a

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Speaker 1: meat allergy, I mean, what the hell? We tried to

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Speaker 1: figure that out, and then all of a sudden, botulism.

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Speaker 1: I have to admit, I had to google botulism. I

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Speaker 1: had to go back and try to figure out, like,

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Speaker 1: what are we talking about here? Botulism in baby formula

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Speaker 1: was a big headline this week, and you can imagine why.

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Speaker 2: Yes, twenty three babies in thirteen states got sickened and

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Speaker 2: were hospitalized because they were exposed to botulism in their

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Speaker 2: baby formula. This is what look I actually ended up for.

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Speaker 2: I had my own medical reasons why I actually had to.

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Speaker 3: My babies were formula babies.

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Speaker 2: To think that the thing you're giving your children to

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Speaker 2: nourish them, to help them grow in, to think that

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Speaker 2: you were actually poisoning them is so scary. You have

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Speaker 2: to trust formula. You have to be able to trust

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Speaker 2: what you're putting into your children. And so, yes, this

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Speaker 2: is frightening, as frightening as it gets.

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Speaker 1: Then you said the word poison, and when you say

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Speaker 1: that related to anything related to a child, it's terrifying.

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Speaker 1: So by heart is the name of this company. They

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Speaker 1: flat out they pulled all of their products off the market,

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Speaker 1: just pulled everything because botulism was detected.

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Speaker 4: Again, how many kids you say, twenty eight.

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Speaker 3: Twenty three?

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Speaker 2: This is this is rare and thankfully nobody was.

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Speaker 3: Actually no babies died as of yet. And I say that,

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Speaker 3: just the potential is there.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this can be a deadly reaction to this neurotoxin.

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Speaker 2: And yes, speaking of neurotoxins, I don't know a lot

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Speaker 2: about the subject, but my dad certainly does, and he's

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Speaker 2: still here with us.

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Speaker 1: How did you react seeing that headline that folks were

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Speaker 1: that botulism was an issue.

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Speaker 5: Infant botulism isn't anything new. There have been cases in

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Speaker 5: the past of infant botulism associated with organic honey. There

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Speaker 5: was a big outbreak several years ago in California where

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Speaker 5: many infants were sickened because they were being fed organic

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Speaker 5: honey that contained the spores of Clousternium bochulinum, which is

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Speaker 5: the organism that produces the boculinum toxin. The disease is

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Speaker 5: called botulism, but it's caused by as amy set, a

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Speaker 5: neurotoxin produced by a bacteria called Clusternium boculinum. It's an

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Speaker 5: anaerobic bacteria, so it grows without the presence of oxygen,

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Speaker 5: and of course honey is a great place for these

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Speaker 5: spores to live because they're going to be kind of protected,

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Speaker 5: and then when the baby ingests them, the babies have

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Speaker 5: undeveloped microbiomes, so there's not a lot of competition in

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Speaker 5: the gut, so these botulism organisms are able to spoulate,

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Speaker 5: grow and produce a neurotoxin WOW, which can potentially be

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Speaker 5: deadly because it causes all sorts of neurological issues because

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Speaker 5: it blocks the synapse between your nerves and your muscles.

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Speaker 5: So essentially, your muscles cease to function because they're not

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Speaker 5: getting the message from your central nervous system. And when

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Speaker 5: death occurs, it often occurs because the diaphragm is essentially

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Speaker 5: paralyzed and you're unable to breathe, so it's not a

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Speaker 5: fun disease.

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Speaker 3: That's horrific. Actually, it is a.

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Speaker 5: Horrific and people in the past, having contracted botulism from

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Speaker 5: a variety of sources. People would be put on iron lungs,

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Speaker 5: you know in the old days, so that you know

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Speaker 5: that iron lung would breathe for you because your diaphragm

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Speaker 5: was unable to function. So it is a frightening situation.

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Speaker 5: And by Heart whole nutrition infant formula, as Amy said,

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Speaker 5: there have been twenty three infants in thirteen states, and

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Speaker 5: there's epidemiological evidence and laboratory data showing that this infant

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Speaker 5: formula might be contaminated with clusterradium batchline which is causing

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Speaker 5: the illnesses around the country.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say you mentioned Dad that you there

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Speaker 2: was a recent or a similar situation with organic honey.

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Speaker 2: That stood out to me because by Heart infant formula

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Speaker 2: is organic. They they that it's one of their their

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Speaker 2: organic infant formula. Does that have anything to do with it?

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Speaker 2: Is there any connection between those two things.

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Speaker 5: It's really hard to say. I mean, the investigation by

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Speaker 5: the FDA is still ongoing, so they haven't identified a source.

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Speaker 5: Was it an ingredient that went into the formula. Was

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Speaker 5: it something that happened during the manufacturing of the formula.

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Speaker 5: So there are still a lot of things that need

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Speaker 5: to be understood. I'm not familiar with their process or

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Speaker 5: how they source their ingredients. So that's something the FDA

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Speaker 5: will continue to to investigate. And you know, right now,

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Speaker 5: it's just top of mind that you know, we need

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Speaker 5: to be aware of this formula out there and if

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Speaker 5: anybody has any and in their home that it needs

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Speaker 5: to be destroyed.

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Speaker 4: What does that look botula? Where does it live? How

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Speaker 4: can it like on a surface? How can it get

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Speaker 4: into formula?

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Speaker 5: Hu well Klos treating Batchulinum is a it's a it's

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Speaker 5: a it's a spore and and so it can survive

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Speaker 5: in the soil, it can survive in water, it can

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Speaker 5: survive in a variety of different environments for a long

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Speaker 5: period of time. And then when it's put into an

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Speaker 5: environment where it can grow, then it goes through a

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Speaker 5: process that we call spoulation, and then the actual bacterium

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Speaker 5: cell begins to grow, and as it grows, it produces

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Speaker 5: this neurotoxin. So it's normally found in improperly processed canned

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Speaker 5: foods because those can foods would be anaerobic, there would

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Speaker 5: be no oxygen in there. And if they're not heated

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Speaker 5: long enough and at a high enough temperature, the spores

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Speaker 5: can survive. They'll survive pasteurization temperatures. So they have to

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Speaker 5: be what we call commercially sterilized. So if you get

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Speaker 5: like canned soups or anything like that, they've gone through

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Speaker 5: a commercially sterile process. So the bacteria the clusternim botch

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Speaker 5: A linum, and those cans have been destroyed. It has

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Speaker 5: been associated with vacuum package meat in the past where

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Speaker 5: that's been improperly processed and improperly stored. It hasn't been refrigerated.

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Speaker 5: Clustrini botchelinum. The types here are normally have to have

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Speaker 5: warm temperatures in order to grow. But what's dangerous is

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Speaker 5: when it's ingested by an infant who, as I said earlier,

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Speaker 5: has an undeveloped microbiome. There is no other competing organisms

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Speaker 5: in the gut to out compete this organism and drop

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Speaker 5: the pH of the gut down to an acidic level

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Speaker 5: that will not allow this bug to grow.

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Speaker 2: Well, Thank goodness, there have been no infant depths and

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Speaker 2: yes to your point. All federal officials, anyone involved with

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Speaker 2: this recall.

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Speaker 3: Have all urged parents get rid of this stuff. You

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Speaker 3: don't want it anywhere near you.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything or what should parents look out for

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Speaker 2: in terms of if your infant is experiencing or showing

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Speaker 2: any kind of symptoms, take them. You want them going

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Speaker 2: straight to the doctor or they can be tested for this.

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Speaker 3: How do they determine this what's going on? Okay?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean they would. You'd want to take your

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Speaker 5: child to the pediatrician and have the symptoms, you know,

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Speaker 5: looked at and understand, you know, what might be going on,

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Speaker 5: and if there is an issue, they can there is

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Speaker 5: assistance for breathing. You know that could be a p Now,

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Speaker 5: all all of these children have been hospitalized, so they

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Speaker 5: were all taken to I'm assuming an emergency room and

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Speaker 5: they were put on some sort of a ventilator I

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Speaker 5: would assume to help them breathe.

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Speaker 2: Wow, because that's the scary thing. Mentioned that your lungs

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Speaker 2: literally get paralyzed. When we first did the story last week, bachulism,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking botox.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we paralyzed the muscles in.

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Speaker 2: Our faces so we can look younger and not create wrinkles,

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Speaker 2: But thinking about that as it applies to your lungs

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Speaker 2: or a little baby's lungs, that is altogether a very

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Speaker 2: different situation.

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Speaker 4: Use both us.

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Speaker 3: Yes for years, yes I stopped.

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Speaker 4: You didn't tell me I didn't know.

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Speaker 3: Yes, please asistance.

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Speaker 4: And your dad is really smart.

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Speaker 3: He is so proud of him.

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Speaker 5: You know what we can say. You are our first.

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Speaker 4: In home studio guests we've.

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Speaker 5: Had, right is right?

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Speaker 3: Oh, yes, Dad's in the podcast studio. This is great.

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Speaker 3: Nice to have you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for you know, he came here just to

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Speaker 2: enjoy a weekend and we've already put him to work,

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Speaker 2: so we do need to say thank you, thank you

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm very happy to be here, and I'm very

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Speaker 5: happy to help out in any way that I can.

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Speaker 2: Well, we appreciate you, and you certainly have always been

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Speaker 2: my go to when I need to understand science or

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Speaker 2: at least certainly in some of these scary headlines we've

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Speaker 2: been seeing this week, I immediately thought of you. So we

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Speaker 2: hope all of you listening also learned something and hopefully

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Speaker 2: had to take away from some of these news stories

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Speaker 2: we've heard this week. So Dad, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Mike roboch for being on the podcast, Thank you for listening.

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Speaker 2: I made me Robach alongside TJ. Holmes, and we will

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Speaker 2: talk to you soon.