WEBVTT - The Road to Damascus 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.236 Pushkin. I have a theory that the most interesting autobiographies 0:00:21.716 --> 0:00:24.836 are the ones written by second tier people. I'm not 0:00:24.956 --> 0:00:28.276 using second tier in a derogatory sense like second rate. 0:00:28.996 --> 0:00:34.636 I mean it in a sense of hierarchy. When the 0:00:34.676 --> 0:00:38.276 people on the top tier tell their story, it's invariably boring. 0:00:39.196 --> 0:00:41.836 They have too much to lose by being honest. Their 0:00:41.836 --> 0:00:45.316 public stature works against them on the page because they know. 0:00:45.436 --> 0:00:49.476 Anything they write that's even vaguely controversial or opinionated, in 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:53.196 other words, anything interesting, it's going to get dissected and 0:00:53.276 --> 0:00:57.036 distorted by the media. But the memoir of the person 0:00:57.236 --> 0:01:00.396 under the general or the president or the CEO, the 0:01:00.436 --> 0:01:03.236 person you've never heard of, that person has a lot 0:01:03.356 --> 0:01:06.996 less to lose, and their memoirs are where the gold lies. 0:01:11.556 --> 0:01:14.676 Not long ago, I picked up a book called Company Man, 0:01:15.196 --> 0:01:18.916 Thirty Years of Controversy and Crisis in the CIA. It 0:01:18.996 --> 0:01:21.636 was by a man named John Rizzo. I checked the 0:01:21.636 --> 0:01:25.316 book flap for Rizzo's bio. He wasn't the director of 0:01:25.316 --> 0:01:29.196 the CIA, or the deputy director, or even the Head 0:01:29.236 --> 0:01:32.476 of Operations, which is the person who runs all the spies. No. 0:01:32.996 --> 0:01:37.116 Rizzo was an attorney in the agency's legal Department, eventually 0:01:37.236 --> 0:01:41.516 rising to acting General counsel. When I saw Rizzo's book, 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:46.516 I thought, BINGO, I have to read this. I was 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:54.476 not disappointed. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 0:01:54.556 --> 0:02:00.556 Revisionist History, my podcast about Things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This 0:02:00.716 --> 0:02:03.316 episode is about a story John Rizzou tells on page 0:02:03.356 --> 0:02:06.396 one forty eight of his autobiography. It's a story about 0:02:06.396 --> 0:02:08.956 a spy, a very good one, and what happened to 0:02:08.996 --> 0:02:14.996 him him. Right after I read it, I got in 0:02:15.076 --> 0:02:17.596 touch with Rizzo. I asked him if I could interview 0:02:17.636 --> 0:02:20.516 him about the story of the spy. He said, of course. 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:26.276 Then in his email he added a PostScript, PS, interesting 0:02:26.316 --> 0:02:30.716 that you focused on that episode. When I finished the manuscript, 0:02:30.956 --> 0:02:33.516 I figured that if any single anecdote in the book 0:02:33.596 --> 0:02:37.196 would garner public attention, that would be the one. As 0:02:37.236 --> 0:02:40.436 it turned out, I don't remember anyone ever asking me 0:02:40.636 --> 0:02:48.116 or otherwise talking about it, which I found puzzling. Yes, 0:02:48.876 --> 0:02:49.596 it's puzzling. 0:02:51.396 --> 0:02:54.836 I mean it was probably forty maybe. As I say, 0:02:54.876 --> 0:02:57.436 I saw pictures of him, photos of them. At the time. 0:02:57.796 --> 0:03:01.236 I'm sitting at Rizzo's kitchen table at his house in Washington, 0:03:01.316 --> 0:03:04.556 d c. He's telling me about the spy he mentioned 0:03:04.636 --> 0:03:05.676 in his autobiography. 0:03:06.076 --> 0:03:10.116 And he looked like al Pacino, no circa godfather too. 0:03:10.236 --> 0:03:12.756 He was at Europe, I mean, he was European looking. 0:03:12.756 --> 0:03:16.516 He's to a young man, and I think he reached 0:03:16.596 --> 0:03:19.036 sort of, you know, a stage in his life that 0:03:19.596 --> 0:03:24.956 he felt remorse skills about what he had done in 0:03:24.996 --> 0:03:27.876 his youth and in his formative years. You know, as 0:03:27.916 --> 0:03:32.196 simple and confounding as that. I mean, I don't, honestly, 0:03:32.236 --> 0:03:36.156 I don't recall another instance of an asset coming to 0:03:36.276 --> 0:03:38.996 us under those kinds of circumstances. 0:03:39.356 --> 0:03:43.556 An asset is CIA speak for a source, someone on 0:03:43.596 --> 0:03:46.756 the inside. This asset, the man who looked like al 0:03:46.796 --> 0:03:50.676 Pacino was a terrorist. Do you know the details of 0:03:50.756 --> 0:03:55.916 his how he approached the CIA to say I've had 0:03:55.916 --> 0:03:56.596 a change of heart. 0:03:57.436 --> 0:04:01.676 I you know, I believed he just volunteered his services, 0:04:01.716 --> 0:04:05.516 and I think he just walked into an embassy. 0:04:05.316 --> 0:04:08.196 And what was what do we know about the quality 0:04:08.236 --> 0:04:09.956 of the information he was providing. 0:04:10.476 --> 0:04:13.036 It was very good. You know. He was considered the 0:04:13.436 --> 0:04:17.916 highly reliable and he he didn't want much money. That 0:04:17.996 --> 0:04:21.396 was the other interesting thing. He didn't want money. I 0:04:21.436 --> 0:04:23.956 mean it wasn't you know most assets didn't want money. 0:04:25.476 --> 0:04:26.636 Why didn't he want money? 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:31.676 Because he said that he was doing this for his conscience, 0:04:32.596 --> 0:04:35.476 to make up and it was an act of expiation. 0:04:36.116 --> 0:04:40.356 An act of expiation. You will want to take sides 0:04:40.396 --> 0:04:44.676 when you finish this story. My advice to you is don't. 0:04:50.356 --> 0:04:53.436 If you make a list of the greatest investigative reporters 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:57.076 of a last generation, there's Bob Woodward at the top. 0:04:57.716 --> 0:05:01.916 There's Mark Bowden, who wrote Blackhawk Down, Seymour Hirsch who 0:05:01.996 --> 0:05:03.756 wrote for the New York Times for many years, and 0:05:03.756 --> 0:05:08.276 then The New Yorker, Steve Cale, Jane Mayer. There's a 0:05:08.276 --> 0:05:10.716 guy who I sett when I first started my career 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:14.156 at the Washington Post many years ago, Mike Isikoff, who 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:17.956 was a bulldog. And somewhere in that top cluster of 0:05:17.996 --> 0:05:22.156 investigative reporters is Tim Weiner. He's one of the few 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:25.436 journalists ever to have won both a Pulitzer Prize and 0:05:25.556 --> 0:05:29.196 a National Book Award. In the nineteen eighties, Weiner worked 0:05:29.196 --> 0:05:32.876 at the Philadelphia Inquirer, and his first foreign assignment was 0:05:32.916 --> 0:05:37.796 covering the overthrow of the Filipino dictator Ferdinand Marcos. When 0:05:37.836 --> 0:05:40.556 Weiner came back, he convinced his editor to send him 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:44.236 to Afghanistan, where the CIA was then secretly funding the 0:05:44.316 --> 0:05:47.036 mujah Hadeen in their battle against the Soviet occupation. 0:05:47.556 --> 0:05:51.356 I called up the CIA, which had and always has 0:05:51.436 --> 0:05:56.076 had a public information office, and I said, hey, I'm 0:05:56.076 --> 0:05:59.116 going to Afghanistan. I understand you people do country briefings 0:05:59.796 --> 0:06:03.796 from time to time for foreign correspondence. How about it? 0:06:04.316 --> 0:06:09.276 And he said absolutely not hung up the phone. If 0:06:09.316 --> 0:06:11.556 I went to Afghanistan. I had a jolly old time. 0:06:11.676 --> 0:06:13.756 Came back and I hadn't been back in Washington for 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:15.276 more than a day when my phone rang. 0:06:16.116 --> 0:06:19.676 It was a public information officer from the CIA. This 0:06:19.796 --> 0:06:23.356 time he was friendly. He said, why don't you come 0:06:23.356 --> 0:06:24.316 by for that briefing. 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:27.596 So off I went through the CIA, which is in 0:06:27.636 --> 0:06:30.396 the woods, about eight miles outside of the White House, 0:06:31.996 --> 0:06:36.036 checkpoint one, checkpoint two, checkpoint three, into the lobby of 0:06:36.036 --> 0:06:38.236 the CIA, and up on the left hand wall, in 0:06:38.316 --> 0:06:41.316 great gold letters, it says from the Gospel of John, 0:06:41.916 --> 0:06:44.316 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth will 0:06:44.316 --> 0:06:48.716 make you free. So I'm hooked already. I go up 0:06:48.756 --> 0:06:51.156 to the seventh floor, which is where the executive suites 0:06:51.356 --> 0:06:55.076 were and there are four CIA officers sitting around a 0:06:55.116 --> 0:06:59.636 table for my quote briefing unquote, But they really only 0:06:59.676 --> 0:07:03.836 wanted to know one thing from me, which was what's 0:07:03.876 --> 0:07:09.076 it like. These were supposed to be the four top ciaxps. 0:07:09.196 --> 0:07:16.076 It's on Afghanistan. They'd never been to Afghanistan. So I 0:07:16.116 --> 0:07:18.316 walked out of there thinking, I'm going to devote the 0:07:18.356 --> 0:07:22.476 rest of my life to making a study of this agency. 0:07:23.836 --> 0:07:27.756 I was completely fascinated. 0:07:28.396 --> 0:07:30.116 Why I went to The New York Times in nineteen 0:07:30.196 --> 0:07:34.636 ninety three continued covering the agency all throughout the nineteen nineties. 0:07:35.236 --> 0:07:38.636 He was very, very good at it. When I was 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:41.676 covering the CIA during the Aldrich Ames affair, you may 0:07:41.716 --> 0:07:45.196 remember that Ames was a senior CIA officer who worked 0:07:45.196 --> 0:07:47.676 there for more than thirty years, and he ended up 0:07:47.676 --> 0:07:51.476 telling the KGB everything he knew, including the names of 0:07:51.476 --> 0:07:55.276 the agency's assets inside the Soviet Union. It was one 0:07:55.276 --> 0:07:58.836 of the most damaging cases of espionage in American history. 0:07:59.436 --> 0:08:02.996 Ames is under arrest, and I'm thinking I should go 0:08:03.036 --> 0:08:06.676 interview Ames. I wonder where Ames is right now, and 0:08:06.716 --> 0:08:08.516 as it turned out, he was in a county jail. 0:08:10.076 --> 0:08:13.316 So I go to the county jail and I say, 0:08:13.396 --> 0:08:16.676 I'd like to talk to prisoner Alder James. And I've 0:08:16.796 --> 0:08:19.596 walked into the interview room and there was Alda James. 0:08:20.716 --> 0:08:21.276 We talked. 0:08:23.396 --> 0:08:24.436 How long did you talk to him? 0:08:24.436 --> 0:08:24.516 For? 0:08:24.716 --> 0:08:25.516 Well about an hour? 0:08:26.276 --> 0:08:26.516 Wait? 0:08:26.556 --> 0:08:28.836 You stopped after an hour? Did they stop? 0:08:29.116 --> 0:08:29.276 You know? 0:08:30.316 --> 0:08:32.796 It's a visiting hour, Tim, this. 0:08:32.796 --> 0:08:35.596 Is the greatest scoop of your It's a school. 0:08:36.636 --> 0:08:42.156 And I gave my phone number and he called me collect, 0:08:42.916 --> 0:08:46.836 you know, on a regular basis. And I did a 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:50.476 number of stories based on first hand interviews where he 0:08:50.596 --> 0:08:54.316 essentially confessed to everything he'd done and gave me some 0:08:54.436 --> 0:08:57.476 rather vivid descriptions of life inside the CIA, most of 0:08:57.516 --> 0:08:59.316 which were true and demonstrably true. 0:09:00.436 --> 0:09:02.756 Maybe you have to have been a reporter to understand 0:09:02.796 --> 0:09:06.276 how fantastic that story is. I was a reporter at 0:09:06.276 --> 0:09:09.076 the Washington Post for ten years. I would have assumed 0:09:09.236 --> 0:09:11.756 that the worst spy in American history was under triple 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:15.396 lockdown somewhere, whisked away by helicopter to a black side. 0:09:15.956 --> 0:09:19.156 I would have waited for the press release. But Weiner 0:09:19.316 --> 0:09:21.276 is a kind of person who would assume that if 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:25.356 the intelligence establishment was naive and disorganized enough to have 0:09:25.396 --> 0:09:28.556 its clock cleaned, by a KGB mole. Then it was 0:09:28.596 --> 0:09:32.156 probably naive and disorganized enough to park that same mole 0:09:32.276 --> 0:09:33.716 unattended in the county jail. 0:09:34.276 --> 0:09:36.716 And I covered them like you would cover a courthouse 0:09:37.156 --> 0:09:40.476 or the cops, or Congress or the White House. They're 0:09:40.516 --> 0:09:44.076 an arm of the government, like the Internal Revenue Service 0:09:44.356 --> 0:09:47.276 or the Post Office. They happened to be a secret 0:09:47.356 --> 0:09:48.116 arm of government. 0:09:53.196 --> 0:09:55.756 Weiner would later write a book called Legacy of Ashes. 0:09:56.396 --> 0:09:59.316 That's how he won his National Book Award. It's an 0:09:59.396 --> 0:10:03.516 amazing book, easily the best history of the CIA ever written. 0:10:07.116 --> 0:10:09.956 Some people within the agency thought that one was biased 0:10:09.996 --> 0:10:13.716 against them, that in his reporting, and particularly in Legacy 0:10:13.756 --> 0:10:16.156 of Ashes, he went on too long about what the 0:10:16.236 --> 0:10:19.436 agency had done wrong, and that he said too little 0:10:19.636 --> 0:10:23.476 about what the agency did right. I understand why they 0:10:23.516 --> 0:10:26.636 think that way, but I'm not sure that assessment is fair. 0:10:27.396 --> 0:10:31.796 Weiner is not biased. He's aggressive. You only have to 0:10:31.796 --> 0:10:34.956 meet him to understand that he has one of those big, square, 0:10:35.036 --> 0:10:39.316 impressive heads, barrel chest, the kind of self confidence that 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:41.516 you have to have if you're in his line of work. 0:10:42.116 --> 0:10:46.876 He's a kind of relentlessness about him. I can't remember 0:10:46.916 --> 0:10:49.316 how many times we talked on the phone and went 0:10:49.396 --> 0:10:51.716 back and forth in emails before he agreed to sit 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:55.996 down with me. He kept it up for weeks, clarifying, probing, 0:10:56.716 --> 0:10:58.916 why do you want to do this story? What are 0:10:58.956 --> 0:11:03.476 your intentions? Weiner is aggressive because over the course of 0:11:03.516 --> 0:11:06.716 his career, he needed to be aggressive. It's not like 0:11:06.796 --> 0:11:10.676 the CIA puts out colorful brochures highlighting its latest initiatives. 0:11:11.116 --> 0:11:18.036 It's a secret agency. There's a man named Jeffrey Smith 0:11:18.276 --> 0:11:21.156 who will figure in this story as well. Smith used 0:11:21.196 --> 0:11:23.836 to be the general counsel for the CIA. He's very 0:11:23.916 --> 0:11:28.916 much a member of the intelligence establishment, genteel, bookish. He's 0:11:28.916 --> 0:11:31.196 now in private practice at one of the most prestigious 0:11:31.236 --> 0:11:34.476 of DC law firms, Arnold and Porter. And one of 0:11:34.516 --> 0:11:37.156 the things that Smith says is it's a good thing 0:11:37.236 --> 0:11:40.396 for the agency that reporters like Tim Winer are aggressive. 0:11:40.916 --> 0:11:42.916 The agency needs a free press. 0:11:43.756 --> 0:11:49.196 It keeps you honest. It's not unlike congressional oversight. If 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:53.596 any government agency is asked to do something or is 0:11:53.596 --> 0:11:58.396 considering something, the CIA, you have to think, this is 0:11:58.636 --> 0:12:00.796 probably something that is going to have to be reported 0:12:00.796 --> 0:12:03.596 to our two oversight committees. How are they going to 0:12:03.596 --> 0:12:07.916 react and what happens if it leaks, how do we 0:12:08.396 --> 0:12:13.316 explain what doing? And that question comes up all the time, 0:12:14.356 --> 0:12:16.036 and without a press it wouldn't come. 0:12:15.996 --> 0:12:25.076 Up, So you need needs yes, Does the CIA always 0:12:25.116 --> 0:12:25.596 remember that? 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:32.396 In the ranks, some people don't see it that way. 0:12:33.196 --> 0:12:35.796 As you get more senior, you do see it that way. 0:12:36.796 --> 0:12:40.036 And the senior people have to explain to the younger 0:12:40.036 --> 0:12:43.156 people as are coming up through the ranks why that's necessary. 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:49.716 Why do we put up with a hugely powerful agency 0:12:49.756 --> 0:12:53.116 like the CIA, with a budget in the tens of billions, 0:12:53.676 --> 0:12:57.836 doing things we know very little about, because we're confident 0:12:57.916 --> 0:13:01.476 that if the CIA does something truly evil or stupid, 0:13:02.036 --> 0:13:05.476 the press will find out and let us know. Weiner 0:13:05.836 --> 0:13:09.316 lives by this idea. He devoted his career to it. 0:13:09.796 --> 0:13:12.876 What does the CIA look like in the absence of 0:13:13.036 --> 0:13:17.996 free press? It looks like the KGB. We have a 0:13:18.156 --> 0:13:21.956 uniquely American problem here, Malcolm. We're trying to run a 0:13:22.036 --> 0:13:26.196 secret intelligence service in an open, democratic society. The Russians 0:13:26.236 --> 0:13:29.876 don't do that, the Chinese don't do that, not even 0:13:29.916 --> 0:13:34.796 the British do that. We need to have a constant 0:13:34.916 --> 0:13:39.836 tug of war between a free press, a cantankerous press, 0:13:41.036 --> 0:13:46.796 a skeptical press, and the powerful institutions of our government. 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:49.676 But there are going to be arguments. 0:13:50.316 --> 0:13:52.716 Believe me, they were arguments. 0:13:54.356 --> 0:13:56.556 He's the world's most wanted man, the son of a 0:13:56.556 --> 0:13:57.956 wealthy Venezuelan lawyer. 0:13:57.996 --> 0:14:00.516 His profession is spreading terror worldwide. 0:14:00.676 --> 0:14:01.916 He has links with groups like that. 0:14:02.036 --> 0:14:04.996 The most notorious terrorist of the nineteen seventies and nineteen 0:14:04.996 --> 0:14:09.556 eighties was a man named Ilitch Ramirez Sanchez, so known 0:14:09.556 --> 0:14:13.196 as Carlos the Jackal. He was born in Venezuela, but 0:14:13.276 --> 0:14:16.076 worked closely with a radical group called the Popular Front 0:14:16.116 --> 0:14:21.156 for the Liberation of Palestine, setting bombs assassinating people. He 0:14:21.236 --> 0:14:23.276 was thought to be responsible for the deaths of more 0:14:23.316 --> 0:14:26.316 than eighty people. He played a role in the massacre 0:14:26.316 --> 0:14:28.996 of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympic Games in nineteen 0:14:29.036 --> 0:14:33.236 seventy two. Carlos the Jackal was almost as notorious in 0:14:33.316 --> 0:14:35.956 his day as a Soma Ben Lauden was in ours. 0:14:36.756 --> 0:14:39.916 He was the subject of a massive international manhunt that 0:14:39.996 --> 0:14:43.796 went on for years. Finally, in nineteen ninety four, he 0:14:43.876 --> 0:14:47.356 was captured in Sudan by French intelligence. How did they 0:14:47.356 --> 0:14:51.116 find him because of a tip from the CIA. Where 0:14:51.116 --> 0:14:54.156 did the CIA get its information from a man who 0:14:54.236 --> 0:14:56.476 was once high up in the same world as the Jackal? 0:14:57.156 --> 0:15:00.396 The guy John Rizzo wrote about the asset who looked 0:15:00.436 --> 0:15:02.876 like Alpuccino. Here's Rizzo again. 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:07.956 Yeah, usually you work case officers, work potential sources and 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:11.956 assets for months to years before even pitching them to help. 0:15:12.396 --> 0:15:16.036 This guy just walked, I mean just just walked in. 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:18.676 So yeah, I mean, at the time is recruitment. There 0:15:18.756 --> 0:15:21.356 was a great excitement, eagerness that this is one of 0:15:21.436 --> 0:15:23.716 the few guys, the best guy we have inside a 0:15:23.796 --> 0:15:25.316 terrorist organization. 0:15:25.756 --> 0:15:28.516 So you never met him, but you saw a picture 0:15:28.556 --> 0:15:32.276 of him, and you say, you describe him as looking 0:15:32.316 --> 0:15:34.796 like al Pacino. There was something kind of glamorous about him. 0:15:34.836 --> 0:15:35.156 Is that what? 0:15:35.356 --> 0:15:35.556 Yeah? 0:15:35.796 --> 0:15:41.516 Yeah, sleek, dark hair, is European looking. I mean he 0:15:41.596 --> 0:15:44.156 was not you know, he was not your jihadi. I 0:15:44.156 --> 0:15:47.676 mean he was he was Westernized. 0:15:50.996 --> 0:15:55.036 Al Pacino helped the CIA find Carlos the Jackal, but 0:15:55.156 --> 0:15:57.876 by the following year, the summer of nineteen ninety five, 0:15:58.436 --> 0:16:02.756 the CIA found itself in crisis. The Aldrich Aims scandal 0:16:02.956 --> 0:16:07.276 had devastated the agency's reputation. What's more, the Cold War 0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:11.076 was over, and since the CIA was essentially created to 0:16:11.076 --> 0:16:14.836 fight the Cold War, lots of people in Washington, serious 0:16:14.876 --> 0:16:18.716 people wondered if the United States even needed the agency anymore. 0:16:19.636 --> 0:16:22.276 Then all kinds of stories broke about shady characters the 0:16:22.316 --> 0:16:26.796 agency was mixed up with in Central America, murderers, drug dealers. 0:16:27.516 --> 0:16:30.876 It was the last straw. President Clinton brought in a 0:16:30.916 --> 0:16:34.636 new director, John Deutsch, with the mandate to clean house. 0:16:35.636 --> 0:16:39.076 Deutsche ordered what's called an asset scrub, a review of 0:16:39.076 --> 0:16:42.836 every spy, informant, an asset on a CIA payroll, with 0:16:42.916 --> 0:16:49.956 a specific emphasis on ethical considerations. As the CIA's General Counsel, 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:51.676 Jeff Smith was in the middle. 0:16:51.396 --> 0:16:57.876 Of it, were there assets who had committed major felonase 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:02.156 human rights violations or had attacked Americans? And so we 0:17:02.236 --> 0:17:06.196 added that dimension to the assets scrub that was currently underway. 0:17:06.996 --> 0:17:09.796 And one of the files the agency reviewed was that 0:17:09.836 --> 0:17:13.596 of al Pacino. John Rizzo was Jeff Smith's deputy. He 0:17:13.676 --> 0:17:14.796 was in the middle of it as well. 0:17:15.316 --> 0:17:19.276 It was discovered that he had actually committed terrorist acts 0:17:19.316 --> 0:17:25.796 against Americans, bombings in Europe, and that he had wounded 0:17:26.036 --> 0:17:28.996 some with his bombs. I mean, obviously the intent was 0:17:29.036 --> 0:17:34.836 to kill them. Now that was somehow missed. Now I 0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:37.756 don't know how it was, mister, whether frankly it was 0:17:37.876 --> 0:17:42.116 just overlooked, but it should have been a red flag. 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:46.236 You can imagine what some people inside the CIA thought 0:17:46.236 --> 0:17:49.516 of the asset scrub. The function of a spy's service 0:17:49.916 --> 0:17:51.956 is to find out what the bad guys are doing, 0:17:52.636 --> 0:17:54.236 and the best way you find out what the bad 0:17:54.276 --> 0:17:57.396 guys are doing is to have another bad guy tell you. Right, 0:17:57.956 --> 0:18:00.196 So why would you have a rule saying the CIA 0:18:00.556 --> 0:18:04.436 needs to be extra careful about hiring bad guys, but 0:18:04.476 --> 0:18:06.676 at the same time as a group that says, look, 0:18:07.276 --> 0:18:09.796 the agency is a mess. We might not have a 0:18:09.836 --> 0:18:12.556 future unless we clean up our act. We have to 0:18:12.556 --> 0:18:13.556 play by the rules. 0:18:14.156 --> 0:18:16.996 So what that meant was, we've belatedly discovered that we 0:18:17.036 --> 0:18:22.836 should have reviewed his record before entering into a relationship 0:18:22.876 --> 0:18:27.836 with them, and we should have actually gone to the 0:18:27.916 --> 0:18:31.836 law enforcement, the FBI, Department of Justice at the outset 0:18:32.356 --> 0:18:35.596 before we even began a relationship. And I would have 0:18:35.596 --> 0:18:37.236 been the guy to do it, was to go to justice. 0:18:37.236 --> 0:18:38.516 The out that we did not do that. 0:18:39.476 --> 0:18:42.876 In the middle of all that handbringing, someone calls Tim Winer. 0:18:43.956 --> 0:18:47.916 So when do you first get wind of the retired terrorist? 0:18:48.916 --> 0:18:52.556 As I recall in the late spring or early summer 0:18:53.796 --> 0:18:58.756 of nineteen ninety five, I get word from inside the 0:18:58.756 --> 0:19:04.356 CI that we have a problem here, and I begin 0:19:04.436 --> 0:19:05.276 to make inquiries. 0:19:07.076 --> 0:19:11.236 So somebody from is the CIA? What is their motivation 0:19:12.156 --> 0:19:14.076 for telling you this? 0:19:14.596 --> 0:19:18.956 The CIA has screwed up. It has failed to inform 0:19:18.996 --> 0:19:23.356 the Justice Department that they have an asset on their books, 0:19:24.396 --> 0:19:29.596 a foreign agent who has again euphemistically American blood on 0:19:29.636 --> 0:19:30.156 his hands. 0:19:30.836 --> 0:19:34.876 So why do they want to call the New York Times. 0:19:36.556 --> 0:19:45.516 To write or wrong? Because sometimes public disclosure is the 0:19:45.556 --> 0:19:46.556 only way to write a wrong. 0:19:47.716 --> 0:19:50.116 Do you think it's ea? Did they think it would 0:19:50.156 --> 0:19:56.356 be easier for them to fulfill their obligation to inform 0:19:56.996 --> 0:20:00.396 the Justice Department if there was a kind of leak 0:20:00.476 --> 0:20:01.036 of this fact. 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:05.316 First, there was a battle royal going on inside the 0:20:05.316 --> 0:20:07.756 CIA over the scrub. 0:20:09.396 --> 0:20:13.036 So Deutsche's pushing that and within the agency there's a 0:20:13.076 --> 0:20:16.396 considerable amount of pushback, so they're anticipating this is going 0:20:16.436 --> 0:20:17.116 to be a struggle. 0:20:17.236 --> 0:20:21.156 A considerable amount of pushback is an understatement. There was 0:20:21.356 --> 0:20:23.156 fierce opposition. 0:20:24.556 --> 0:20:27.156 So I'm guessing the people who call you are the 0:20:27.196 --> 0:20:28.636 ones who are in favor of the scrub. 0:20:31.516 --> 0:20:38.356 The people who call me are patriots who love their 0:20:38.436 --> 0:20:43.396 country and who were sworn to uphold Let me rephrase that. 0:20:45.036 --> 0:20:50.036 The people who called me, I believe, are patriots who 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:55.396 love their country and are motivated to live by their 0:20:55.436 --> 0:20:58.396 oath to uphold the Constitution and obey the laws of 0:20:58.436 --> 0:21:01.236 the United States. 0:21:01.956 --> 0:21:06.116 Why or Waits continues to ask around. Then, late in 0:21:06.156 --> 0:21:09.516 the summer of nineteen ninety five, the CIA decides to 0:21:09.556 --> 0:21:13.196 take its medicine. Rizzo goes to the Department of Justice 0:21:13.636 --> 0:21:17.756 and tells them good, bad and ugly about their al pacino. 0:21:18.316 --> 0:21:20.836 They were upset, you know, basically, why are you just 0:21:20.876 --> 0:21:23.916 telling us this now? You know, why didn't you tell 0:21:23.996 --> 0:21:27.796 us before you got in bed with this guy? So, yeah, 0:21:27.836 --> 0:21:30.836 they were upsets. I knew they would be. You have 0:21:30.916 --> 0:21:35.876 to weigh this guy is, you know, gold, against the 0:21:35.916 --> 0:21:39.916 fact that, well, you know, he's got attempted murder of 0:21:39.956 --> 0:21:41.596 Americans on his resume. 0:21:42.676 --> 0:21:45.956 At the same time Rizzo's having that conversation, the head 0:21:45.956 --> 0:21:49.396 of the CIA's counter Terrorism Center went to Capitol Hill 0:21:49.596 --> 0:21:53.276 and briefed members of Congress about the acid scrub. They 0:21:53.316 --> 0:21:58.316 weren't happy either. People all over Washington. Now knew about 0:21:58.356 --> 0:22:02.316 al Pacino, people in the Department of Justice, people in 0:22:02.356 --> 0:22:07.756 the White House, people on the Hill, representatives, senators, staffers, 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:09.396 and Winer's phone rings. 0:22:09.436 --> 0:22:15.596 Again, my rule of thumb on a story like this 0:22:15.636 --> 0:22:18.676 is and I want to have three sources, and I 0:22:18.716 --> 0:22:20.996 want to make sure that the second source is not 0:22:21.116 --> 0:22:25.316 the first source, in which case I have one source. Right, 0:22:25.636 --> 0:22:31.196 So I had two sources. I did get a call. 0:22:35.396 --> 0:22:43.636 The call was a call to have a conversation outside 0:22:43.676 --> 0:22:50.316 of the normal circuits of the telephone lines. The conversation 0:22:50.636 --> 0:22:55.036 was with a member of Congress. At this point, I 0:22:55.036 --> 0:23:00.956 have three sources. Subsequently, there was a fourth who is 0:23:01.316 --> 0:23:04.516 an American diplomat, was an American diplomat at the time. 0:23:05.356 --> 0:23:09.076 Winnercalls the CIA Press office and talks to the agency's 0:23:09.156 --> 0:23:12.956 Oaksmith at the time, Dennis Box. I met Box in 0:23:13.036 --> 0:23:16.396 a restaurant in northern Virginia. 0:23:15.596 --> 0:23:18.676 And it was at that point where they said this 0:23:18.796 --> 0:23:23.356 is not good, this is this is really gonna put 0:23:23.356 --> 0:23:27.676 somebody at risk. And I said, said, well, let's invite 0:23:27.716 --> 0:23:32.676 him in and try to lay out for him. You 0:23:32.716 --> 0:23:35.996 know what's gonna what the risk is. He said, he 0:23:36.036 --> 0:23:39.356 sat in my office with the head of counter Terrorism Center. 0:23:39.636 --> 0:23:42.516 Yeah, and what was do you remember much? What was 0:23:42.556 --> 0:23:44.116 the what was the nature of the conversation. 0:23:45.036 --> 0:23:47.756 Well, it was pretty straightforward. It was he's got a 0:23:47.796 --> 0:23:51.036 fairly mild demeanor. He's not at least with us. He 0:23:51.156 --> 0:23:54.276 you know, he wasn't aggressive or abrasive. I mean, he 0:23:54.396 --> 0:23:58.876 was just kind of laying out, here's here's what I have, 0:23:59.036 --> 0:24:02.036 here's what I've been told. But it was the detail. 0:24:02.116 --> 0:24:05.796 It was the details of this particular asset that got 0:24:06.276 --> 0:24:07.356 our folks worked up. 0:24:08.876 --> 0:24:13.796 This particular asset meaning Alpucino, Bach says, the head of 0:24:13.796 --> 0:24:17.436 the counter Terrorism Center explained all the specific things that 0:24:17.516 --> 0:24:21.196 if published, would put al Pacino in danger. He tried 0:24:21.236 --> 0:24:23.956 to interest Winer instead in a broader story about the 0:24:23.956 --> 0:24:26.876 asset scrub, which wasn't really a secret at that point. 0:24:29.516 --> 0:24:33.956 These kinds of conversations between reporters and government officials are 0:24:33.956 --> 0:24:39.156 not unusual. This is how Washington works. In the United Kingdom, 0:24:39.316 --> 0:24:42.516 there is something commonly known as a d notice, which 0:24:42.556 --> 0:24:45.796 is a government order issued to a media organization saying 0:24:45.996 --> 0:24:49.036 you shouldn't publish what you want to publish because it 0:24:49.156 --> 0:24:54.316 endangers national security. If this story were taking place in 0:24:54.316 --> 0:24:57.476 the United Kingdom. The minute winer called to say, I 0:24:57.636 --> 0:25:00.676 know about al Pucino. The British government would have slapped 0:25:00.716 --> 0:25:03.516 a D notice on him, end of story. But the 0:25:03.596 --> 0:25:07.796 United States doesn't have dnotices. It has a constitutional right 0:25:07.876 --> 0:25:11.276 to freedom of the press. So what happens instead is 0:25:11.276 --> 0:25:15.796 a negotiation. The reporter comes in, he or she gets briefed. 0:25:16.716 --> 0:25:18.716 Maybe the head of the CIA calls the editor of 0:25:18.716 --> 0:25:22.116 the Washington Post or the New York Times and says, look, 0:25:22.516 --> 0:25:28.436 we're really uncomfortable with this. Here's why. Just as I 0:25:28.516 --> 0:25:32.076