1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I have a theory that the most interesting autobiographies 2 00:00:21,716 --> 00:00:24,836 Speaker 1: are the ones written by second tier people. I'm not 3 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:28,276 Speaker 1: using second tier in a derogatory sense like second rate. 4 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:34,636 Speaker 1: I mean it in a sense of hierarchy. When the 5 00:00:34,676 --> 00:00:38,276 Speaker 1: people on the top tier tell their story, it's invariably boring. 6 00:00:39,196 --> 00:00:41,836 Speaker 1: They have too much to lose by being honest. Their 7 00:00:41,836 --> 00:00:45,316 Speaker 1: public stature works against them on the page because they know. 8 00:00:45,436 --> 00:00:49,476 Speaker 1: Anything they write that's even vaguely controversial or opinionated, in 9 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:53,196 Speaker 1: other words, anything interesting, it's going to get dissected and 10 00:00:53,276 --> 00:00:57,036 Speaker 1: distorted by the media. But the memoir of the person 11 00:00:57,236 --> 00:01:00,396 Speaker 1: under the general or the president or the CEO, the 12 00:01:00,436 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 1: person you've never heard of, that person has a lot 13 00:01:03,356 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: less to lose, and their memoirs are where the gold lies. 14 00:01:11,556 --> 00:01:14,676 Speaker 1: Not long ago, I picked up a book called Company Man, 15 00:01:15,196 --> 00:01:18,916 Speaker 1: Thirty Years of Controversy and Crisis in the CIA. It 16 00:01:18,996 --> 00:01:21,636 Speaker 1: was by a man named John Rizzo. I checked the 17 00:01:21,636 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 1: book flap for Rizzo's bio. He wasn't the director of 18 00:01:25,316 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 1: the CIA, or the deputy director, or even the Head 19 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:32,476 Speaker 1: of Operations, which is the person who runs all the spies. No. 20 00:01:32,996 --> 00:01:37,116 Speaker 1: Rizzo was an attorney in the agency's legal Department, eventually 21 00:01:37,236 --> 00:01:41,516 Speaker 1: rising to acting General counsel. When I saw Rizzo's book, 22 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:46,516 Speaker 1: I thought, BINGO, I have to read this. I was 23 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:54,476 Speaker 1: not disappointed. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 24 00:01:54,556 --> 00:02:00,556 Speaker 1: Revisionist History, my podcast about Things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This 25 00:02:00,716 --> 00:02:03,316 Speaker 1: episode is about a story John Rizzou tells on page 26 00:02:03,356 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: one forty eight of his autobiography. It's a story about 27 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 1: a spy, a very good one, and what happened to 28 00:02:08,996 --> 00:02:14,996 Speaker 1: him him. Right after I read it, I got in 29 00:02:15,076 --> 00:02:17,596 Speaker 1: touch with Rizzo. I asked him if I could interview 30 00:02:17,636 --> 00:02:20,516 Speaker 1: him about the story of the spy. He said, of course. 31 00:02:21,116 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 1: Then in his email he added a PostScript, PS, interesting 32 00:02:26,316 --> 00:02:30,716 Speaker 1: that you focused on that episode. When I finished the manuscript, 33 00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:33,516 Speaker 1: I figured that if any single anecdote in the book 34 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:37,196 Speaker 1: would garner public attention, that would be the one. As 35 00:02:37,236 --> 00:02:40,436 Speaker 1: it turned out, I don't remember anyone ever asking me 36 00:02:40,636 --> 00:02:48,116 Speaker 1: or otherwise talking about it, which I found puzzling. Yes, 37 00:02:48,876 --> 00:02:49,596 Speaker 1: it's puzzling. 38 00:02:51,396 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 2: I mean it was probably forty maybe. As I say, 39 00:02:54,876 --> 00:02:57,436 Speaker 2: I saw pictures of him, photos of them. At the time. 40 00:02:57,796 --> 00:03:01,236 Speaker 1: I'm sitting at Rizzo's kitchen table at his house in Washington, 41 00:03:01,316 --> 00:03:04,556 Speaker 1: d c. He's telling me about the spy he mentioned 42 00:03:04,636 --> 00:03:05,676 Speaker 1: in his autobiography. 43 00:03:06,076 --> 00:03:10,116 Speaker 2: And he looked like al Pacino, no circa godfather too. 44 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 2: He was at Europe, I mean, he was European looking. 45 00:03:12,756 --> 00:03:16,516 Speaker 2: He's to a young man, and I think he reached 46 00:03:16,596 --> 00:03:19,036 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, a stage in his life that 47 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:24,956 Speaker 2: he felt remorse skills about what he had done in 48 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 2: his youth and in his formative years. You know, as 49 00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:32,196 Speaker 2: simple and confounding as that. I mean, I don't, honestly, 50 00:03:32,236 --> 00:03:36,156 Speaker 2: I don't recall another instance of an asset coming to 51 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 2: us under those kinds of circumstances. 52 00:03:39,356 --> 00:03:43,556 Speaker 1: An asset is CIA speak for a source, someone on 53 00:03:43,596 --> 00:03:46,756 Speaker 1: the inside. This asset, the man who looked like al 54 00:03:46,796 --> 00:03:50,676 Speaker 1: Pacino was a terrorist. Do you know the details of 55 00:03:50,756 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 1: his how he approached the CIA to say I've had 56 00:03:55,916 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: a change of heart. 57 00:03:57,436 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 2: I you know, I believed he just volunteered his services, 58 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:05,516 Speaker 2: and I think he just walked into an embassy. 59 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:08,196 Speaker 1: And what was what do we know about the quality 60 00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:09,956 Speaker 1: of the information he was providing. 61 00:04:10,476 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 2: It was very good. You know. He was considered the 62 00:04:13,436 --> 00:04:17,916 Speaker 2: highly reliable and he he didn't want much money. That 63 00:04:17,996 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 2: was the other interesting thing. He didn't want money. I 64 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:23,956 Speaker 2: mean it wasn't you know most assets didn't want money. 65 00:04:25,476 --> 00:04:26,636 Speaker 1: Why didn't he want money? 66 00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:31,676 Speaker 2: Because he said that he was doing this for his conscience, 67 00:04:32,596 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 2: to make up and it was an act of expiation. 68 00:04:36,116 --> 00:04:40,356 Speaker 1: An act of expiation. You will want to take sides 69 00:04:40,396 --> 00:04:44,676 Speaker 1: when you finish this story. My advice to you is don't. 70 00:04:50,356 --> 00:04:53,436 Speaker 1: If you make a list of the greatest investigative reporters 71 00:04:53,516 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 1: of a last generation, there's Bob Woodward at the top. 72 00:04:57,716 --> 00:05:01,916 Speaker 1: There's Mark Bowden, who wrote Blackhawk Down, Seymour Hirsch who 73 00:05:01,996 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 1: wrote for the New York Times for many years, and 74 00:05:03,756 --> 00:05:08,276 Speaker 1: then The New Yorker, Steve Cale, Jane Mayer. There's a 75 00:05:08,276 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 1: guy who I sett when I first started my career 76 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 1: at the Washington Post many years ago, Mike Isikoff, who 77 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 1: was a bulldog. And somewhere in that top cluster of 78 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:22,156 Speaker 1: investigative reporters is Tim Weiner. He's one of the few 79 00:05:22,236 --> 00:05:25,436 Speaker 1: journalists ever to have won both a Pulitzer Prize and 80 00:05:25,556 --> 00:05:29,196 Speaker 1: a National Book Award. In the nineteen eighties, Weiner worked 81 00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:32,876 Speaker 1: at the Philadelphia Inquirer, and his first foreign assignment was 82 00:05:32,916 --> 00:05:37,796 Speaker 1: covering the overthrow of the Filipino dictator Ferdinand Marcos. When 83 00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:40,556 Speaker 1: Weiner came back, he convinced his editor to send him 84 00:05:40,596 --> 00:05:44,236 Speaker 1: to Afghanistan, where the CIA was then secretly funding the 85 00:05:44,316 --> 00:05:47,036 Speaker 1: mujah Hadeen in their battle against the Soviet occupation. 86 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:51,356 Speaker 3: I called up the CIA, which had and always has 87 00:05:51,436 --> 00:05:56,076 Speaker 3: had a public information office, and I said, hey, I'm 88 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:59,116 Speaker 3: going to Afghanistan. I understand you people do country briefings 89 00:05:59,796 --> 00:06:03,796 Speaker 3: from time to time for foreign correspondence. How about it? 90 00:06:04,316 --> 00:06:09,276 Speaker 3: And he said absolutely not hung up the phone. If 91 00:06:09,316 --> 00:06:11,556 Speaker 3: I went to Afghanistan. I had a jolly old time. 92 00:06:11,676 --> 00:06:13,756 Speaker 3: Came back and I hadn't been back in Washington for 93 00:06:13,796 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 3: more than a day when my phone rang. 94 00:06:16,116 --> 00:06:19,676 Speaker 1: It was a public information officer from the CIA. This 95 00:06:19,796 --> 00:06:23,356 Speaker 1: time he was friendly. He said, why don't you come 96 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:24,316 Speaker 1: by for that briefing. 97 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:27,596 Speaker 3: So off I went through the CIA, which is in 98 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:30,396 Speaker 3: the woods, about eight miles outside of the White House, 99 00:06:31,996 --> 00:06:36,036 Speaker 3: checkpoint one, checkpoint two, checkpoint three, into the lobby of 100 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:38,236 Speaker 3: the CIA, and up on the left hand wall, in 101 00:06:38,316 --> 00:06:41,316 Speaker 3: great gold letters, it says from the Gospel of John, 102 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:44,316 Speaker 3: and ye shall know the truth, and the truth will 103 00:06:44,316 --> 00:06:48,716 Speaker 3: make you free. So I'm hooked already. I go up 104 00:06:48,756 --> 00:06:51,156 Speaker 3: to the seventh floor, which is where the executive suites 105 00:06:51,356 --> 00:06:55,076 Speaker 3: were and there are four CIA officers sitting around a 106 00:06:55,116 --> 00:06:59,636 Speaker 3: table for my quote briefing unquote, But they really only 107 00:06:59,676 --> 00:07:03,836 Speaker 3: wanted to know one thing from me, which was what's 108 00:07:03,876 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 3: it like. These were supposed to be the four top ciaxps. 109 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:16,076 Speaker 3: It's on Afghanistan. They'd never been to Afghanistan. So I 110 00:07:16,116 --> 00:07:18,316 Speaker 3: walked out of there thinking, I'm going to devote the 111 00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 3: rest of my life to making a study of this agency. 112 00:07:23,836 --> 00:07:27,756 Speaker 3: I was completely fascinated. 113 00:07:28,396 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: Why I went to The New York Times in nineteen 114 00:07:30,196 --> 00:07:34,636 Speaker 1: ninety three continued covering the agency all throughout the nineteen nineties. 115 00:07:35,236 --> 00:07:38,636 Speaker 1: He was very, very good at it. When I was 116 00:07:38,676 --> 00:07:41,676 Speaker 1: covering the CIA during the Aldrich Ames affair, you may 117 00:07:41,716 --> 00:07:45,196 Speaker 1: remember that Ames was a senior CIA officer who worked 118 00:07:45,196 --> 00:07:47,676 Speaker 1: there for more than thirty years, and he ended up 119 00:07:47,676 --> 00:07:51,476 Speaker 1: telling the KGB everything he knew, including the names of 120 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:55,276 Speaker 1: the agency's assets inside the Soviet Union. It was one 121 00:07:55,276 --> 00:07:58,836 Speaker 1: of the most damaging cases of espionage in American history. 122 00:07:59,436 --> 00:08:02,996 Speaker 3: Ames is under arrest, and I'm thinking I should go 123 00:08:03,036 --> 00:08:06,676 Speaker 3: interview Ames. I wonder where Ames is right now, and 124 00:08:06,716 --> 00:08:08,516 Speaker 3: as it turned out, he was in a county jail. 125 00:08:10,076 --> 00:08:13,316 Speaker 3: So I go to the county jail and I say, 126 00:08:13,396 --> 00:08:16,676 Speaker 3: I'd like to talk to prisoner Alder James. And I've 127 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:19,596 Speaker 3: walked into the interview room and there was Alda James. 128 00:08:20,716 --> 00:08:21,276 Speaker 3: We talked. 129 00:08:23,396 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 1: How long did you talk to him? 130 00:08:24,436 --> 00:08:24,516 Speaker 4: For? 131 00:08:24,716 --> 00:08:25,516 Speaker 3: Well about an hour? 132 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:26,516 Speaker 2: Wait? 133 00:08:26,556 --> 00:08:28,836 Speaker 1: You stopped after an hour? Did they stop? 134 00:08:29,116 --> 00:08:29,276 Speaker 2: You know? 135 00:08:30,316 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 3: It's a visiting hour, Tim, this. 136 00:08:32,796 --> 00:08:35,596 Speaker 1: Is the greatest scoop of your It's a school. 137 00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:42,156 Speaker 3: And I gave my phone number and he called me collect, 138 00:08:42,916 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 3: you know, on a regular basis. And I did a 139 00:08:46,916 --> 00:08:50,476 Speaker 3: number of stories based on first hand interviews where he 140 00:08:50,596 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 3: essentially confessed to everything he'd done and gave me some 141 00:08:54,436 --> 00:08:57,476 Speaker 3: rather vivid descriptions of life inside the CIA, most of 142 00:08:57,516 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 3: which were true and demonstrably true. 143 00:09:00,436 --> 00:09:02,756 Speaker 1: Maybe you have to have been a reporter to understand 144 00:09:02,796 --> 00:09:06,276 Speaker 1: how fantastic that story is. I was a reporter at 145 00:09:06,276 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 1: the Washington Post for ten years. I would have assumed 146 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:11,756 Speaker 1: that the worst spy in American history was under triple 147 00:09:11,796 --> 00:09:15,396 Speaker 1: lockdown somewhere, whisked away by helicopter to a black side. 148 00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:19,156 Speaker 1: I would have waited for the press release. But Weiner 149 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 1: is a kind of person who would assume that if 150 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:25,356 Speaker 1: the intelligence establishment was naive and disorganized enough to have 151 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 1: its clock cleaned, by a KGB mole. Then it was 152 00:09:28,596 --> 00:09:32,156 Speaker 1: probably naive and disorganized enough to park that same mole 153 00:09:32,276 --> 00:09:33,716 Speaker 1: unattended in the county jail. 154 00:09:34,276 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 3: And I covered them like you would cover a courthouse 155 00:09:37,156 --> 00:09:40,476 Speaker 3: or the cops, or Congress or the White House. They're 156 00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 3: an arm of the government, like the Internal Revenue Service 157 00:09:44,356 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 3: or the Post Office. They happened to be a secret 158 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:48,116 Speaker 3: arm of government. 159 00:09:53,196 --> 00:09:55,756 Speaker 1: Weiner would later write a book called Legacy of Ashes. 160 00:09:56,396 --> 00:09:59,316 Speaker 1: That's how he won his National Book Award. It's an 161 00:09:59,396 --> 00:10:03,516 Speaker 1: amazing book, easily the best history of the CIA ever written. 162 00:10:07,116 --> 00:10:09,956 Speaker 1: Some people within the agency thought that one was biased 163 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:13,716 Speaker 1: against them, that in his reporting, and particularly in Legacy 164 00:10:13,756 --> 00:10:16,156 Speaker 1: of Ashes, he went on too long about what the 165 00:10:16,236 --> 00:10:19,436 Speaker 1: agency had done wrong, and that he said too little 166 00:10:19,636 --> 00:10:23,476 Speaker 1: about what the agency did right. I understand why they 167 00:10:23,516 --> 00:10:26,636 Speaker 1: think that way, but I'm not sure that assessment is fair. 168 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:31,796 Speaker 1: Weiner is not biased. He's aggressive. You only have to 169 00:10:31,796 --> 00:10:34,956 Speaker 1: meet him to understand that he has one of those big, square, 170 00:10:35,036 --> 00:10:39,316 Speaker 1: impressive heads, barrel chest, the kind of self confidence that 171 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:41,516 Speaker 1: you have to have if you're in his line of work. 172 00:10:42,116 --> 00:10:46,876 Speaker 1: He's a kind of relentlessness about him. I can't remember 173 00:10:46,916 --> 00:10:49,316 Speaker 1: how many times we talked on the phone and went 174 00:10:49,396 --> 00:10:51,716 Speaker 1: back and forth in emails before he agreed to sit 175 00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:55,996 Speaker 1: down with me. He kept it up for weeks, clarifying, probing, 176 00:10:56,716 --> 00:10:58,916 Speaker 1: why do you want to do this story? What are 177 00:10:58,956 --> 00:11:03,476 Speaker 1: your intentions? Weiner is aggressive because over the course of 178 00:11:03,516 --> 00:11:06,716 Speaker 1: his career, he needed to be aggressive. It's not like 179 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:10,676 Speaker 1: the CIA puts out colorful brochures highlighting its latest initiatives. 180 00:11:11,116 --> 00:11:18,036 Speaker 1: It's a secret agency. There's a man named Jeffrey Smith 181 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 1: who will figure in this story as well. Smith used 182 00:11:21,196 --> 00:11:23,836 Speaker 1: to be the general counsel for the CIA. He's very 183 00:11:23,916 --> 00:11:28,916 Speaker 1: much a member of the intelligence establishment, genteel, bookish. He's 184 00:11:28,916 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 1: now in private practice at one of the most prestigious 185 00:11:31,236 --> 00:11:34,476 Speaker 1: of DC law firms, Arnold and Porter. And one of 186 00:11:34,516 --> 00:11:37,156 Speaker 1: the things that Smith says is it's a good thing 187 00:11:37,236 --> 00:11:40,396 Speaker 1: for the agency that reporters like Tim Winer are aggressive. 188 00:11:40,916 --> 00:11:42,916 Speaker 1: The agency needs a free press. 189 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:49,196 Speaker 5: It keeps you honest. It's not unlike congressional oversight. If 190 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:53,596 Speaker 5: any government agency is asked to do something or is 191 00:11:53,596 --> 00:11:58,396 Speaker 5: considering something, the CIA, you have to think, this is 192 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:00,796 Speaker 5: probably something that is going to have to be reported 193 00:12:00,796 --> 00:12:03,596 Speaker 5: to our two oversight committees. How are they going to 194 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 5: react and what happens if it leaks, how do we 195 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:13,316 Speaker 5: explain what doing? And that question comes up all the time, 196 00:12:14,356 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 5: and without a press it wouldn't come. 197 00:12:15,996 --> 00:12:25,076 Speaker 1: Up, So you need needs yes, Does the CIA always 198 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:25,596 Speaker 1: remember that? 199 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:32,396 Speaker 5: In the ranks, some people don't see it that way. 200 00:12:33,196 --> 00:12:35,796 Speaker 5: As you get more senior, you do see it that way. 201 00:12:36,796 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 5: And the senior people have to explain to the younger 202 00:12:40,036 --> 00:12:43,156 Speaker 5: people as are coming up through the ranks why that's necessary. 203 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:49,716 Speaker 1: Why do we put up with a hugely powerful agency 204 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 1: like the CIA, with a budget in the tens of billions, 205 00:12:53,676 --> 00:12:57,836 Speaker 1: doing things we know very little about, because we're confident 206 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 1: that if the CIA does something truly evil or stupid, 207 00:13:02,036 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 1: the press will find out and let us know. Weiner 208 00:13:05,836 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 1: lives by this idea. He devoted his career to it. 209 00:13:09,796 --> 00:13:12,876 Speaker 3: What does the CIA look like in the absence of 210 00:13:13,036 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 3: free press? It looks like the KGB. We have a 211 00:13:18,156 --> 00:13:21,956 Speaker 3: uniquely American problem here, Malcolm. We're trying to run a 212 00:13:22,036 --> 00:13:26,196 Speaker 3: secret intelligence service in an open, democratic society. The Russians 213 00:13:26,236 --> 00:13:29,876 Speaker 3: don't do that, the Chinese don't do that, not even 214 00:13:29,916 --> 00:13:34,796 Speaker 3: the British do that. We need to have a constant 215 00:13:34,916 --> 00:13:39,836 Speaker 3: tug of war between a free press, a cantankerous press, 216 00:13:41,036 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 3: a skeptical press, and the powerful institutions of our government. 217 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:49,676 Speaker 3: But there are going to be arguments. 218 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:52,716 Speaker 1: Believe me, they were arguments. 219 00:13:54,356 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 5: He's the world's most wanted man, the son of a 220 00:13:56,556 --> 00:13:57,956 Speaker 5: wealthy Venezuelan lawyer. 221 00:13:57,996 --> 00:14:00,516 Speaker 1: His profession is spreading terror worldwide. 222 00:14:00,676 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 5: He has links with groups like that. 223 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:04,996 Speaker 1: The most notorious terrorist of the nineteen seventies and nineteen 224 00:14:04,996 --> 00:14:09,556 Speaker 1: eighties was a man named Ilitch Ramirez Sanchez, so known 225 00:14:09,556 --> 00:14:13,196 Speaker 1: as Carlos the Jackal. He was born in Venezuela, but 226 00:14:13,276 --> 00:14:16,076 Speaker 1: worked closely with a radical group called the Popular Front 227 00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:21,156 Speaker 1: for the Liberation of Palestine, setting bombs assassinating people. He 228 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:23,276 Speaker 1: was thought to be responsible for the deaths of more 229 00:14:23,316 --> 00:14:26,316 Speaker 1: than eighty people. He played a role in the massacre 230 00:14:26,316 --> 00:14:28,996 Speaker 1: of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympic Games in nineteen 231 00:14:29,036 --> 00:14:33,236 Speaker 1: seventy two. Carlos the Jackal was almost as notorious in 232 00:14:33,316 --> 00:14:35,956 Speaker 1: his day as a Soma Ben Lauden was in ours. 233 00:14:36,756 --> 00:14:39,916 Speaker 1: He was the subject of a massive international manhunt that 234 00:14:39,996 --> 00:14:43,796 Speaker 1: went on for years. Finally, in nineteen ninety four, he 235 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 1: was captured in Sudan by French intelligence. How did they 236 00:14:47,356 --> 00:14:51,116 Speaker 1: find him because of a tip from the CIA. Where 237 00:14:51,116 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 1: did the CIA get its information from a man who 238 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:56,476 Speaker 1: was once high up in the same world as the Jackal? 239 00:14:57,156 --> 00:15:00,396 Speaker 1: The guy John Rizzo wrote about the asset who looked 240 00:15:00,436 --> 00:15:02,876 Speaker 1: like Alpuccino. Here's Rizzo again. 241 00:15:03,396 --> 00:15:07,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, usually you work case officers, work potential sources and 242 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 2: assets for months to years before even pitching them to help. 243 00:15:12,396 --> 00:15:16,036 Speaker 2: This guy just walked, I mean just just walked in. 244 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:18,676 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, at the time is recruitment. There 245 00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:21,356 Speaker 2: was a great excitement, eagerness that this is one of 246 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 2: the few guys, the best guy we have inside a 247 00:15:23,796 --> 00:15:25,316 Speaker 2: terrorist organization. 248 00:15:25,756 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: So you never met him, but you saw a picture 249 00:15:28,556 --> 00:15:32,276 Speaker 1: of him, and you say, you describe him as looking 250 00:15:32,316 --> 00:15:34,796 Speaker 1: like al Pacino. There was something kind of glamorous about him. 251 00:15:34,836 --> 00:15:35,156 Speaker 2: Is that what? 252 00:15:35,356 --> 00:15:35,556 Speaker 5: Yeah? 253 00:15:35,796 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, sleek, dark hair, is European looking. I mean he 254 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 2: was not you know, he was not your jihadi. I 255 00:15:44,156 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 2: mean he was he was Westernized. 256 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:55,036 Speaker 1: Al Pacino helped the CIA find Carlos the Jackal, but 257 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:57,876 Speaker 1: by the following year, the summer of nineteen ninety five, 258 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:02,756 Speaker 1: the CIA found itself in crisis. The Aldrich Aims scandal 259 00:16:02,956 --> 00:16:07,276 Speaker 1: had devastated the agency's reputation. What's more, the Cold War 260 00:16:07,516 --> 00:16:11,076 Speaker 1: was over, and since the CIA was essentially created to 261 00:16:11,076 --> 00:16:14,836 Speaker 1: fight the Cold War, lots of people in Washington, serious 262 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:18,716 Speaker 1: people wondered if the United States even needed the agency anymore. 263 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:22,276 Speaker 1: Then all kinds of stories broke about shady characters the 264 00:16:22,316 --> 00:16:26,796 Speaker 1: agency was mixed up with in Central America, murderers, drug dealers. 265 00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 1: It was the last straw. President Clinton brought in a 266 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:34,636 Speaker 1: new director, John Deutsch, with the mandate to clean house. 267 00:16:35,636 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 1: Deutsche ordered what's called an asset scrub, a review of 268 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:42,836 Speaker 1: every spy, informant, an asset on a CIA payroll, with 269 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 1: a specific emphasis on ethical considerations. As the CIA's General Counsel, 270 00:16:50,236 --> 00:16:51,676 Speaker 1: Jeff Smith was in the middle. 271 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:57,876 Speaker 5: Of it, were there assets who had committed major felonase 272 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:02,156 Speaker 5: human rights violations or had attacked Americans? And so we 273 00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 5: added that dimension to the assets scrub that was currently underway. 274 00:17:06,996 --> 00:17:09,796 Speaker 1: And one of the files the agency reviewed was that 275 00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:13,596 Speaker 1: of al Pacino. John Rizzo was Jeff Smith's deputy. He 276 00:17:13,676 --> 00:17:14,796 Speaker 1: was in the middle of it as well. 277 00:17:15,316 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 2: It was discovered that he had actually committed terrorist acts 278 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 2: against Americans, bombings in Europe, and that he had wounded 279 00:17:26,036 --> 00:17:28,996 Speaker 2: some with his bombs. I mean, obviously the intent was 280 00:17:29,036 --> 00:17:34,836 Speaker 2: to kill them. Now that was somehow missed. Now I 281 00:17:34,876 --> 00:17:37,756 Speaker 2: don't know how it was, mister, whether frankly it was 282 00:17:37,876 --> 00:17:42,116 Speaker 2: just overlooked, but it should have been a red flag. 283 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:46,236 Speaker 1: You can imagine what some people inside the CIA thought 284 00:17:46,236 --> 00:17:49,516 Speaker 1: of the asset scrub. The function of a spy's service 285 00:17:49,916 --> 00:17:51,956 Speaker 1: is to find out what the bad guys are doing, 286 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:54,236 Speaker 1: and the best way you find out what the bad 287 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:57,396 Speaker 1: guys are doing is to have another bad guy tell you. Right, 288 00:17:57,956 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 1: So why would you have a rule saying the CIA 289 00:18:00,556 --> 00:18:04,436 Speaker 1: needs to be extra careful about hiring bad guys, but 290 00:18:04,476 --> 00:18:06,676 Speaker 1: at the same time as a group that says, look, 291 00:18:07,276 --> 00:18:09,796 Speaker 1: the agency is a mess. We might not have a 292 00:18:09,836 --> 00:18:12,556 Speaker 1: future unless we clean up our act. We have to 293 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:13,556 Speaker 1: play by the rules. 294 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:16,996 Speaker 2: So what that meant was, we've belatedly discovered that we 295 00:18:17,036 --> 00:18:22,836 Speaker 2: should have reviewed his record before entering into a relationship 296 00:18:22,876 --> 00:18:27,836 Speaker 2: with them, and we should have actually gone to the 297 00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:31,836 Speaker 2: law enforcement, the FBI, Department of Justice at the outset 298 00:18:32,356 --> 00:18:35,596 Speaker 2: before we even began a relationship. And I would have 299 00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:37,236 Speaker 2: been the guy to do it, was to go to justice. 300 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:38,516 Speaker 2: The out that we did not do that. 301 00:18:39,476 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 1: In the middle of all that handbringing, someone calls Tim Winer. 302 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:47,916 Speaker 1: So when do you first get wind of the retired terrorist? 303 00:18:48,916 --> 00:18:52,556 Speaker 3: As I recall in the late spring or early summer 304 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:58,756 Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety five, I get word from inside the 305 00:18:58,756 --> 00:19:04,356 Speaker 3: CI that we have a problem here, and I begin 306 00:19:04,436 --> 00:19:05,276 Speaker 3: to make inquiries. 307 00:19:07,076 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 1: So somebody from is the CIA? What is their motivation 308 00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:14,076 Speaker 1: for telling you this? 309 00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:18,956 Speaker 3: The CIA has screwed up. It has failed to inform 310 00:19:18,996 --> 00:19:23,356 Speaker 3: the Justice Department that they have an asset on their books, 311 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:29,596 Speaker 3: a foreign agent who has again euphemistically American blood on 312 00:19:29,636 --> 00:19:30,156 Speaker 3: his hands. 313 00:19:30,836 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 1: So why do they want to call the New York Times. 314 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:45,516 Speaker 3: To write or wrong? Because sometimes public disclosure is the 315 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 3: only way to write a wrong. 316 00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 1: Do you think it's ea? Did they think it would 317 00:19:50,156 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 1: be easier for them to fulfill their obligation to inform 318 00:19:56,996 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 1: the Justice Department if there was a kind of leak 319 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:01,036 Speaker 1: of this fact. 320 00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:05,316 Speaker 3: First, there was a battle royal going on inside the 321 00:20:05,316 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 3: CIA over the scrub. 322 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:13,036 Speaker 1: So Deutsche's pushing that and within the agency there's a 323 00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:16,396 Speaker 1: considerable amount of pushback, so they're anticipating this is going 324 00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:17,116 Speaker 1: to be a struggle. 325 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:21,156 Speaker 3: A considerable amount of pushback is an understatement. There was 326 00:20:21,356 --> 00:20:23,156 Speaker 3: fierce opposition. 327 00:20:24,556 --> 00:20:27,156 Speaker 1: So I'm guessing the people who call you are the 328 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:28,636 Speaker 1: ones who are in favor of the scrub. 329 00:20:31,516 --> 00:20:38,356 Speaker 3: The people who call me are patriots who love their 330 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:43,396 Speaker 3: country and who were sworn to uphold Let me rephrase that. 331 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:50,036 Speaker 3: The people who called me, I believe, are patriots who 332 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:55,396 Speaker 3: love their country and are motivated to live by their 333 00:20:55,436 --> 00:20:58,396 Speaker 3: oath to uphold the Constitution and obey the laws of 334 00:20:58,436 --> 00:21:01,236 Speaker 3: the United States. 335 00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:06,116 Speaker 1: Why or Waits continues to ask around. Then, late in 336 00:21:06,156 --> 00:21:09,516 Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen ninety five, the CIA decides to 337 00:21:09,556 --> 00:21:13,196 Speaker 1: take its medicine. Rizzo goes to the Department of Justice 338 00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:17,756 Speaker 1: and tells them good, bad and ugly about their al pacino. 339 00:21:18,316 --> 00:21:20,836 Speaker 2: They were upset, you know, basically, why are you just 340 00:21:20,876 --> 00:21:23,916 Speaker 2: telling us this now? You know, why didn't you tell 341 00:21:23,996 --> 00:21:27,796 Speaker 2: us before you got in bed with this guy? So, yeah, 342 00:21:27,836 --> 00:21:30,836 Speaker 2: they were upsets. I knew they would be. You have 343 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:35,876 Speaker 2: to weigh this guy is, you know, gold, against the 344 00:21:35,916 --> 00:21:39,916 Speaker 2: fact that, well, you know, he's got attempted murder of 345 00:21:39,956 --> 00:21:41,596 Speaker 2: Americans on his resume. 346 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 1: At the same time Rizzo's having that conversation, the head 347 00:21:45,956 --> 00:21:49,396 Speaker 1: of the CIA's counter Terrorism Center went to Capitol Hill 348 00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:53,276 Speaker 1: and briefed members of Congress about the acid scrub. They 349 00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:58,316 Speaker 1: weren't happy either. People all over Washington. Now knew about 350 00:21:58,356 --> 00:22:02,316 Speaker 1: al Pacino, people in the Department of Justice, people in 351 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:07,756 Speaker 1: the White House, people on the Hill, representatives, senators, staffers, 352 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:09,396 Speaker 1: and Winer's phone rings. 353 00:22:09,436 --> 00:22:15,596 Speaker 3: Again, my rule of thumb on a story like this 354 00:22:15,636 --> 00:22:18,676 Speaker 3: is and I want to have three sources, and I 355 00:22:18,716 --> 00:22:20,996 Speaker 3: want to make sure that the second source is not 356 00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:25,316 Speaker 3: the first source, in which case I have one source. Right, 357 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:31,196 Speaker 3: So I had two sources. I did get a call. 358 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 3: The call was a call to have a conversation outside 359 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:50,316 Speaker 3: of the normal circuits of the telephone lines. The conversation 360 00:22:50,636 --> 00:22:55,036 Speaker 3: was with a member of Congress. At this point, I 361 00:22:55,036 --> 00:23:00,956 Speaker 3: have three sources. Subsequently, there was a fourth who is 362 00:23:01,316 --> 00:23:04,516 Speaker 3: an American diplomat, was an American diplomat at the time. 363 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:09,076 Speaker 1: Winnercalls the CIA Press office and talks to the agency's 364 00:23:09,156 --> 00:23:12,956 Speaker 1: Oaksmith at the time, Dennis Box. I met Box in 365 00:23:13,036 --> 00:23:16,396 Speaker 1: a restaurant in northern Virginia. 366 00:23:15,596 --> 00:23:18,676 Speaker 4: And it was at that point where they said this 367 00:23:18,796 --> 00:23:23,356 Speaker 4: is not good, this is this is really gonna put 368 00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:27,676 Speaker 4: somebody at risk. And I said, said, well, let's invite 369 00:23:27,716 --> 00:23:32,676 Speaker 4: him in and try to lay out for him. You 370 00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:35,996 Speaker 4: know what's gonna what the risk is. He said, he 371 00:23:36,036 --> 00:23:39,356 Speaker 4: sat in my office with the head of counter Terrorism Center. 372 00:23:39,636 --> 00:23:42,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what was do you remember much? What was 373 00:23:42,556 --> 00:23:44,116 Speaker 1: the what was the nature of the conversation. 374 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:47,756 Speaker 4: Well, it was pretty straightforward. It was he's got a 375 00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:51,036 Speaker 4: fairly mild demeanor. He's not at least with us. He 376 00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:54,276 Speaker 4: you know, he wasn't aggressive or abrasive. I mean, he 377 00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 4: was just kind of laying out, here's here's what I have, 378 00:23:59,036 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 4: here's what I've been told. But it was the detail. 379 00:24:02,116 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 4: It was the details of this particular asset that got 380 00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:07,356 Speaker 4: our folks worked up. 381 00:24:08,876 --> 00:24:13,796 Speaker 1: This particular asset meaning Alpucino, Bach says, the head of 382 00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 1: the counter Terrorism Center explained all the specific things that 383 00:24:17,516 --> 00:24:21,196 Speaker 1: if published, would put al Pacino in danger. He tried 384 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:23,956 Speaker 1: to interest Winer instead in a broader story about the 385 00:24:23,956 --> 00:24:26,876 Speaker 1: asset scrub, which wasn't really a secret at that point. 386 00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:33,956 Speaker 1: These kinds of conversations between reporters and government officials are 387 00:24:33,956 --> 00:24:39,156 Speaker 1: not unusual. This is how Washington works. In the United Kingdom, 388 00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 1: there is something commonly known as a d notice, which 389 00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 1: is a government order issued to a media organization saying 390 00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:49,036 Speaker 1: you shouldn't publish what you want to publish because it 391 00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:54,316 Speaker 1: endangers national security. If this story were taking place in 392 00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:57,476 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom. The minute winer called to say, I 393 00:24:57,636 --> 00:25:00,676 Speaker 1: know about al Pucino. The British government would have slapped 394 00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:03,516 Speaker 1: a D notice on him, end of story. But the 395 00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:07,796 Speaker 1: United States doesn't have dnotices. It has a constitutional right 396 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:11,276 Speaker 1: to freedom of the press. So what happens instead is 397 00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 1: a negotiation. The reporter comes in, he or she gets briefed. 398 00:25:16,716 --> 00:25:18,716 Speaker 1: Maybe the head of the CIA calls the editor of 399 00:25:18,716 --> 00:25:22,116 Speaker 1: the Washington Post or the New York Times and says, look, 400 00:25:22,516 --> 00:25:28,436 Speaker 1: we're really uncomfortable with this. Here's why. Just as I 401 00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:32,076 Speaker 1: was writing this episode, the Washington Post reported that in 402 00:25:32,116 --> 00:25:35,596 Speaker 1: a meeting with Russian officials, President Trump lets slip some 403 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:39,836 Speaker 1: very sensitive intelligence from an ally. It was about the 404 00:25:39,876 --> 00:25:43,436 Speaker 1: intention of Middle East terrorists to use laptops as bombs. 405 00:25:43,756 --> 00:25:47,996 Speaker 1: Huge story, but if you read the initial news accounts closely, 406 00:25:48,436 --> 00:25:52,916 Speaker 1: it's obvious that the reporters held some information back. They 407 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:56,516 Speaker 1: didn't tell us which American ally gave us that information. 408 00:25:57,476 --> 00:25:59,556 Speaker 1: It seems like they knew the location of the spy, 409 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:03,796 Speaker 1: but they didn't tell us that either. This is what 410 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:07,196 Speaker 1: I'm talking about. Somewhere along the line, there was clearly 411 00:26:07,276 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: a conversation between those reports and the CIA and the 412 00:26:10,876 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 1: reporters listened and then said, we're going to disclose what 413 00:26:14,356 --> 00:26:16,876 Speaker 1: we think is necessary to make the point about the 414 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:20,676 Speaker 1: recklessness of the president, but we're willing to withhold details 415 00:26:20,796 --> 00:26:25,396 Speaker 1: that you tell us might damage national security. Jeff Smith 416 00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:28,956 Speaker 1: says he's been involved in lots of these conversations, both 417 00:26:28,996 --> 00:26:31,396 Speaker 1: on the government end and now on the media end, 418 00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:34,036 Speaker 1: because he has media organizations among his clients. 419 00:26:34,996 --> 00:26:37,556 Speaker 5: One of the things I fault the government is too 420 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:41,436 Speaker 5: frequently the government just says, well, harm could result. That 421 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:44,636 Speaker 5: then leaves my clients when I'm on the client side 422 00:26:44,996 --> 00:26:46,996 Speaker 5: in the terrible at the lemo of saying, well, what's 423 00:26:46,996 --> 00:26:48,716 Speaker 5: the harm? We can't tell you. 424 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 1: But Smith, as you can imagine, can see the government's 425 00:26:52,596 --> 00:26:56,196 Speaker 1: side as well. If you're the CIA trying to convince 426 00:26:56,236 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 1: a reporter or an editor not to spill a secret, 427 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:01,516 Speaker 1: you have to tell them enough about the secret so 428 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:04,196 Speaker 1: that they understand what's at stake. What you don't want 429 00:27:04,236 --> 00:27:06,556 Speaker 1: to do is reveal even more the secret than what 430 00:27:06,596 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 1: has already been revealed. And all of this respecting the 431 00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:13,756 Speaker 1: fact that the press in America can, at least in principle, 432 00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 1: do pretty much whatever it wants. 433 00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:21,236 Speaker 5: What the government tries to do is indicate gradations of harm. 434 00:27:21,956 --> 00:27:27,036 Speaker 5: This is really bad, this is less bad, and leaving 435 00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 5: the editorial judgments to the press. But the government should 436 00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:35,756 Speaker 5: not be in the business of saying, we agree, you 437 00:27:35,796 --> 00:27:36,316 Speaker 5: can print this. 438 00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: It's tricky from the. 439 00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:43,556 Speaker 5: National security side. You have to trust the editors of 440 00:27:44,516 --> 00:27:49,036 Speaker 5: the publishers or whomever you're talking to and tell them 441 00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:52,156 Speaker 5: why and as specific as you can what the harm 442 00:27:52,196 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 5: would be, so that they can make a judgment. It's 443 00:27:55,836 --> 00:28:00,396 Speaker 5: then incumbent upon the editors to take that seriously. 444 00:28:01,556 --> 00:28:05,156 Speaker 1: This is exactly the kind of elaborate dance Winer and 445 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:07,596 Speaker 1: the head of the counter Terrorism Center are having in 446 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:11,196 Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen ninety five. In Rizzo's book, he 447 00:28:11,276 --> 00:28:13,836 Speaker 1: says that some of the things the counter terrorism chief 448 00:28:13,876 --> 00:28:17,996 Speaker 1: told Weiner left him bug eyed with shock. Weiner says, 449 00:28:18,036 --> 00:28:21,676 Speaker 1: that's nonsense. But the point is this. The conversation. Wasn't 450 00:28:21,716 --> 00:28:25,356 Speaker 1: the CIA giving instructions to the New York Times. That's 451 00:28:25,396 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: not how the balance between a free press and a 452 00:28:27,756 --> 00:28:34,676 Speaker 1: clandestine service works. Did the counter terrorism chief say to you, 453 00:28:34,756 --> 00:28:36,076 Speaker 1: don't mention his guidele. 454 00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:45,316 Speaker 3: It was a strong preference of the counter terrorism chief 455 00:28:45,756 --> 00:28:53,116 Speaker 3: that certain identifying details that were known to me stay 456 00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:58,676 Speaker 3: out of the public realm, and I agreed with that. 457 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:04,796 Speaker 3: I mean, what is the point of publishing the guy's 458 00:29:04,876 --> 00:29:08,076 Speaker 3: country of origin, the intelligence service he worked for, the 459 00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:12,636 Speaker 3: specific time and date in place of the attacks. Does 460 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:15,876 Speaker 3: the reader need to know that? No, the story's about 461 00:29:15,916 --> 00:29:20,436 Speaker 3: the balancing test. I knew who we worked for, I 462 00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 3: knew the specific time and place of the attacks, and 463 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:29,276 Speaker 3: I knew how grievous the attacks had been. Every detail 464 00:29:29,276 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 3: of that was scrubbed of my own free will and 465 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:37,076 Speaker 3: volition from that story, based on my principle that I 466 00:29:37,116 --> 00:29:40,356 Speaker 3: do not want to publish anything they can get anybody hurt. 467 00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:48,276 Speaker 1: But Winer made it clear to the CIA that he 468 00:29:48,356 --> 00:29:51,276 Speaker 1: wasn't going to leave al Pacino out of the story entirely. 469 00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:54,756 Speaker 1: He was going to reveal that al Pacino was the 470 00:29:54,796 --> 00:29:58,396 Speaker 1: source who helped find Carlos the jackal that Paccino had 471 00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:01,316 Speaker 1: and I'm quoting from the story. Winer eventually wrote a 472 00:30:01,356 --> 00:30:05,116 Speaker 1: brutal resume. He had been involved in two bombings in 473 00:30:05,156 --> 00:30:08,516 Speaker 1: Western Europe in the mid nineteen eighties that had injured Americans, 474 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:11,476 Speaker 1: and he had only broken with his terrorist group in 475 00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:17,116 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven. Four separate people someone inside the CIA, 476 00:30:17,556 --> 00:30:20,836 Speaker 1: a congressman, a diplomat, and someone else in the know 477 00:30:21,236 --> 00:30:25,356 Speaker 1: had told Weiner about Alpucino. Al Pacino was the person 478 00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 1: about whom the agency had failed to tell Congress and 479 00:30:28,116 --> 00:30:33,476 Speaker 1: the Justice Department. From Winer's perspective, al Pucino was the story. 480 00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:40,036 Speaker 1: Jeff Smith says that when he realized what Winer intended 481 00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:44,756 Speaker 1: to publish, his heart sank. What was the in general, 482 00:30:44,836 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 1: the feeling within the agency about the possibility of this 483 00:30:49,876 --> 00:30:51,556 Speaker 1: story being written. 484 00:30:52,556 --> 00:30:59,196 Speaker 5: Anger, anger that it had leaked so quickly, and then 485 00:30:59,956 --> 00:31:02,996 Speaker 5: a real desire it that we do all we could 486 00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 5: to not have the details of what this individual had 487 00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:09,916 Speaker 5: told us and what happened come out. 488 00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:12,036 Speaker 1: When you say what happened, do you mean are you 489 00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:16,316 Speaker 1: talking specifically about this individual's involvement with fingering or help 490 00:31:16,476 --> 00:31:20,596 Speaker 1: define to your mind that was the identifying Yes. Yes, 491 00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:24,516 Speaker 1: the agency scrambled to get in touch with al Pacino. 492 00:31:25,196 --> 00:31:27,836 Speaker 1: They had to warn him. Here's Rizzo again. 493 00:31:28,556 --> 00:31:30,356 Speaker 2: You can't just call up an assentence that made me, 494 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:32,516 Speaker 2: you know, made me in the cafe around the corner 495 00:31:32,516 --> 00:31:38,836 Speaker 2: of the hour. I mean that located signal emergency meeting 496 00:31:38,916 --> 00:31:44,316 Speaker 2: was necessary. I think the meeting actually took place, either 497 00:31:44,756 --> 00:31:47,196 Speaker 2: just immediately before the story came out or on the 498 00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:48,436 Speaker 2: day the story came out. 499 00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:51,876 Speaker 1: And what did the assets say during the meeting when. 500 00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:57,956 Speaker 2: Told this, Well, I was told that he was flabbergast, 501 00:31:58,796 --> 00:32:02,596 Speaker 2: felt absolutely betrayed. How could this happen? How could you 502 00:32:02,876 --> 00:32:06,676 Speaker 2: do this to me? I'm a dead man, you know. 503 00:32:06,756 --> 00:32:11,796 Speaker 2: And our case officer broken news to him, offered immediate evacuation, 504 00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 2: safe haven, get the hell out of there, and he refused. 505 00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:23,436 Speaker 2: He just walked away. You betrayed me, and that was it, 506 00:32:23,556 --> 00:32:27,116 Speaker 2: he just walked. 507 00:32:31,196 --> 00:32:33,876 Speaker 1: The story ran on August twenty first, nineteen ninety five, 508 00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:36,876 Speaker 1: on the front page of the New York Times CIA 509 00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:40,956 Speaker 1: re examines hiring of ex terrorist as agent. It was 510 00:32:40,996 --> 00:32:45,476 Speaker 1: also translated and ran in newspapers around the world. Al 511 00:32:45,516 --> 00:32:48,516 Speaker 1: Pacino's case officer put a copy of the Greek version 512 00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:51,676 Speaker 1: on his wall, and when the case officer was asked why, 513 00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:55,196 Speaker 1: I'm told, he said, I do this because it is 514 00:32:55,236 --> 00:32:58,196 Speaker 1: a reminder to all of us in this division about 515 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:05,556 Speaker 1: the consequences of breaking faith with your asset. One of 516 00:33:05,556 --> 00:33:08,476 Speaker 1: the most famous of all New Testament stories is what 517 00:33:08,556 --> 00:33:14,276 Speaker 1: happened to Tarsus on the Road to Damascus Saul was 518 00:33:14,276 --> 00:33:18,116 Speaker 1: a strong opponent of the early Christian Church. He persecuted 519 00:33:18,116 --> 00:33:22,876 Speaker 1: the early Christians, the Bible says beyond measure. He stood 520 00:33:22,876 --> 00:33:26,676 Speaker 1: by and watched as one of the earliest of Jesus' followers, Stephen, 521 00:33:27,156 --> 00:33:30,796 Speaker 1: was stoned to death. And then one day on the 522 00:33:30,876 --> 00:33:34,356 Speaker 1: road to Damascus, Saul had a vision of the resurrected 523 00:33:34,436 --> 00:33:41,116 Speaker 1: Jesus and converted to Christianity. Saul became Paul, cornerstone of 524 00:33:41,156 --> 00:33:45,196 Speaker 1: the early Christian Church. Saul was allowed to become Paul. 525 00:33:45,756 --> 00:33:48,876 Speaker 1: That's the point of the story of Paul's epiphany. He 526 00:33:48,916 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 1: had been the sworn enemy of the early Church, and 527 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:54,236 Speaker 1: then he said that he had changed his mind, that 528 00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:58,956 Speaker 1: he regretted his previous acts, and he was forgiven. That 529 00:33:59,076 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 1: idea that we are allowed to transform ourselves has been 530 00:34:03,236 --> 00:34:07,356 Speaker 1: central to our culture ever since. The man we've been 531 00:34:07,396 --> 00:34:10,996 Speaker 1: calling al Pucino was a sworn enemy of the West. 532 00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:14,916 Speaker 1: He helped plant bombs in Western Europe that killed and 533 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:19,836 Speaker 1: injured innocent people. And then he had an epiphany. He 534 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:23,476 Speaker 1: walked into an American embassy. He said, I don't want money, 535 00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:26,356 Speaker 1: I just want to atone for the evil that I 536 00:34:26,436 --> 00:34:30,956 Speaker 1: have done. But in al Pucino's case. We did not 537 00:34:31,076 --> 00:34:35,356 Speaker 1: allow him to transform himself. The CIA went to Congress 538 00:34:35,516 --> 00:34:38,436 Speaker 1: and the Department of Justice to confess they had hired 539 00:34:38,436 --> 00:34:42,236 Speaker 1: an ex terrorist with a terrible past, even though he 540 00:34:42,316 --> 00:34:45,476 Speaker 1: was an ex terrorist who only came to us because 541 00:34:45,476 --> 00:34:50,276 Speaker 1: he had repudiated his terrible past. The Justice Department says, 542 00:34:51,036 --> 00:34:53,116 Speaker 1: why didn't you tell us before you got in bed 543 00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:55,916 Speaker 1: with this guy? As if he were still the guy 544 00:34:56,156 --> 00:34:58,836 Speaker 1: you would never want to get in bed with. The 545 00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:03,516 Speaker 1: headline to Winer's story says, CIA re examines hiring of 546 00:35:03,636 --> 00:35:07,356 Speaker 1: ex terrorist as agent as if the central fact about 547 00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:12,156 Speaker 1: al Pacino was his past associations, his brutal resume. As 548 00:35:12,156 --> 00:35:16,036 Speaker 1: Winer put it, a resume is a list of accomplishments. 549 00:35:16,556 --> 00:35:20,196 Speaker 1: But al Pacino did not consider his past record and accomplishment. 550 00:35:20,636 --> 00:35:23,916 Speaker 1: He wanted to repudiate it. That was the whole point 551 00:35:23,916 --> 00:35:26,836 Speaker 1: of him walking into an embassy and offering us everything 552 00:35:26,876 --> 00:35:30,716 Speaker 1: he knew. Remember what Rizzo said about why al Pacino 553 00:35:30,836 --> 00:35:33,876 Speaker 1: did not want money. He said he was doing this 554 00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:39,356 Speaker 1: for his conscience. It was an act of expiation. Expiation 555 00:35:39,636 --> 00:35:43,516 Speaker 1: is the act of making amends or reparation for guilt 556 00:35:43,636 --> 00:35:50,156 Speaker 1: or wrongdoing. Atonement. He asked for atonement. We pretended to 557 00:35:50,196 --> 00:35:53,916 Speaker 1: give it to him, then we took it away. What's 558 00:35:53,996 --> 00:36:00,996 Speaker 1: wrong with us? So what happened to al Pacino? I 559 00:36:01,036 --> 00:36:04,076 Speaker 1: think you can guess. Very soon after the New York 560 00:36:04,076 --> 00:36:08,636 Speaker 1: Times story ran, he was killed by his former terrorist colleagues. 561 00:36:09,316 --> 00:36:16,476 Speaker 1: They identified him, they tracked him down. When I said 562 00:36:16,516 --> 00:36:19,076 Speaker 1: at the beginning that you would feel the urge to 563 00:36:19,156 --> 00:36:23,076 Speaker 1: take sides, and that you shouldn't, I was talking about 564 00:36:23,116 --> 00:36:28,116 Speaker 1: this moment. We can argue all day about what is 565 00:36:28,516 --> 00:36:31,676 Speaker 1: and is not an appropriate leak, or about who's to 566 00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:34,756 Speaker 1: blame when negotiations break down between the government and the 567 00:36:34,836 --> 00:36:39,436 Speaker 1: press over a sensitive story. But if you get too 568 00:36:39,476 --> 00:36:42,356 Speaker 1: lost in picking a side in that argument, you lose 569 00:36:42,396 --> 00:36:46,876 Speaker 1: track of Alpucino, whoever he was, this man who risked 570 00:36:46,876 --> 00:36:50,036 Speaker 1: his life for a country other than his own, asking 571 00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:58,316 Speaker 1: only in return that he be granted absolution. I never 572 00:36:58,396 --> 00:37:02,196 Speaker 1: found out anything more about al Pucino. There is apparently 573 00:37:02,276 --> 00:37:04,996 Speaker 1: a long story about what happened to him and how 574 00:37:04,996 --> 00:37:10,116 Speaker 1: he was killed, but it's still classified. The CIA people 575 00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,316 Speaker 1: were only free to talk about Tim Weiner. Tim Weiner 576 00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:15,196 Speaker 1: only wanted to talk about the CIA. 577 00:37:16,036 --> 00:37:20,356 Speaker 3: I think there's a problem with that. Story as Rizzo 578 00:37:20,476 --> 00:37:23,636 Speaker 3: tells it, just as he thinks there's a problem with 579 00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:28,636 Speaker 3: my story is published. I respect his right to his opinion. 580 00:37:29,436 --> 00:37:32,836 Speaker 1: To winer Rizzo was just blaming him for a problem 581 00:37:32,836 --> 00:37:36,036 Speaker 1: of the CIA's own creation. They were the ones who 582 00:37:36,076 --> 00:37:37,476 Speaker 1: opened up al Pacino's file. 583 00:37:38,196 --> 00:37:41,396 Speaker 3: If they hadn't screwed up their own procedures and arguably 584 00:37:41,516 --> 00:37:45,196 Speaker 3: violated a presidential directive on how you handle a problem 585 00:37:45,276 --> 00:37:48,196 Speaker 3: like this, then they wouldn't have had to go to 586 00:37:48,236 --> 00:37:51,116 Speaker 3: the FBI and Capitol Hill, and I wouldn't have gotten 587 00:37:51,156 --> 00:37:53,996 Speaker 3: my third and eventually my fourth source on this story. 588 00:37:54,756 --> 00:37:58,796 Speaker 3: Where's the leak? Here? The leak is because the CIA 589 00:37:59,556 --> 00:38:05,716 Speaker 3: violated its own guidelines and practices, and mister Rizzo, who 590 00:38:05,796 --> 00:38:10,916 Speaker 3: is a good lawyer and a capable lawyer, you know, 591 00:38:11,036 --> 00:38:14,956 Speaker 3: has made a false and arguably defamatory argument here, which 592 00:38:15,036 --> 00:38:18,716 Speaker 3: is the New York Times got an asset killed. 593 00:38:22,516 --> 00:38:26,276 Speaker 1: False and defamatory. One side puts the front page of 594 00:38:26,276 --> 00:38:28,476 Speaker 1: The New York Times up on the wall. The other 595 00:38:28,556 --> 00:38:33,356 Speaker 1: side says, don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. Can 596 00:38:33,396 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 1: we at least agree that we should have forgiven al 597 00:38:35,556 --> 00:38:40,276 Speaker 1: Pacino his sins and that, however it happened, he was wronged. 598 00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:43,396 Speaker 1: And maybe if you run a front page story about 599 00:38:43,396 --> 00:38:46,196 Speaker 1: a man one day and right after he gets killed, 600 00:38:46,396 --> 00:38:48,676 Speaker 1: even if you don't think it was your fault exactly, 601 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,396 Speaker 1: maybe you should run a little explanation of what happened, 602 00:38:52,116 --> 00:38:55,076 Speaker 1: or even just have a moment of silence, a little 603 00:38:55,076 --> 00:38:58,956 Speaker 1: bit of remorse. What was the reaction in house the 604 00:38:58,956 --> 00:38:59,956 Speaker 1: New York Times the story? 605 00:38:59,996 --> 00:39:03,036 Speaker 3: Do you remember the reaction in house at the New 606 00:39:03,116 --> 00:39:06,956 Speaker 3: York Times. There were a lot of page one stories 607 00:39:06,956 --> 00:39:15,356 Speaker 3: about the CIA in that era, and I don't think 608 00:39:15,356 --> 00:39:17,316 Speaker 3: that there was a major reaction at all. 609 00:39:20,876 --> 00:39:41,156 Speaker 1: What happens after the story runs, Life goes on? Revision's 610 00:39:41,236 --> 00:39:44,516 Speaker 1: History is produced by me LaBelle and Jacob Smith, with 611 00:39:44,636 --> 00:39:49,636 Speaker 1: Camille Baptista, Stephanie Daniel, and Sillomarra Martinez White. Our editor 612 00:39:49,716 --> 00:39:54,116 Speaker 1: is Julia Barton. Flaonon Williams is our engineer. Original music 613 00:39:54,156 --> 00:39:57,836 Speaker 1: by Luis Sciarra. Special thanks to Andy Bauers and Jacob 614 00:39:57,836 --> 00:40:00,476 Speaker 1: Weisberger Panople. I'm Malcolm Gladwell,